Winnie the Pooh: Silly Old Bear | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> [music]. >> Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. and there's [music] Chuck and Jerry's. here, too, and we're continuing on with. our. >> [music]. >> endless nostalgia talk edition. Which is fine by me. >> Were you into Winnie the Pooh? >> Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, I was raised on. the Disney version. I don't know if I. ever had any of the original story.

books, but as I became an adult, I I. grew pretty fond of those. So, you know, every every night you and me and I will. read a couple to each other. >> Oh, that's nice. >> I'm I'm kidding. >> Well, it sounded like a nice nice. evening. >> It really would, for sure. Um, maybe we. will start because I was reading some of. these again and I'm like, "God, these are sweet.". >> Yeah, it's sweet stuff. I don't remember. I guess I was into it a little bit, but. it doesn't stand out as like a. hugely like formative piece of culture.

from my. childhood. >> What did you think about it. rereading some of the stuff though. today? >> Uh, I mean, the same. It's just it's. wonderful stuff. But and it's kind of. like. uh, um, a little bit of a bummer. Like the real-life stuff? >> Yeah, so much so I'm like, maybe we. should just skip that part because. >> [laughter]. >> I watched that biopic or biop depending. on your pronunciation. >> Which one? >> Goodbye Christopher Robin. >> Oh, okay. >> And it is harsh. >> Yeah, I mean, that that's the real.

story. I think you know, Disney made the. Christopher Robin movie. that seemed to I didn't see that one, the one with Ewan McGregor, but that. seemed to be very much a, uh, a Disney-fied version of the real. Christopher Robin's adulthood. >> I see. So, this was, um, about they. focused easily half the movie on his. very, very early life. I'd say about. two-thirds or three-quarters of the. movie. Maybe five-eighths, we'll just. say that. Um, and. but it was like based on an author.

like a really exhaustive biography from. the '90s. And man, it did not pull. punches. Like it was tough to watch. And. like the mom, Daphne, is not treated. sympathetically at all. She's. essentially if there's a villain in the. the movie, it's her. >> Yeah, I totally agree. >> Yeah. Well, at any rate, before we get. off on that, we should probably talk. about the celebrated Winnie the Pooh. And hopefully you can continue on. separating the art, the work of magic.

that A.A. Milne created, from you know, the real life behind the scenes stuff. Because that's real life. Winnie the. Pooh is not real life and that's what. makes it so magnificent. >> That's right. Uh, but it was birthed. from a real life thing, which is I mean. the story starts out incredibly sweet. Uh, and it starts out in Canada in 1914. when a soldier shows up at basic. training and has an orphaned black bear. cub. Uh, this is Lieutenant Harry. Colebourn who is a veterinarian from.

Winnipeg. Shout out Winnipeg. >> Yeah. >> City we went to for the very first time. on tour this summer. >> Shout out Winnipeg. >> Had a great time. Uh, but he apparently, as the story. goes, got this bear, uh, from a train. platform on his way to the military. base. It was for sale by a hunter who. had killed the bear's mom. So, he brings. this bear along who was a little girl. bear, by the way. Uh, and that's kind of set me down the. path of like, wait a minute, was Winnie. the Pooh a a girl bear?

Um, and apparently not. So, we'll we'll. kind of get to that switch. But, uh, because he was from Winnipeg, he. nicknamed this real bear Winnie and took. this real bear to like the barracks and. it became like a little base bear. >> Yeah. That's so Canada too, you know? >> Oh, totally. >> I love it. Also, in my um, in the. version of the story in my head, Lieutenant Harry Colebourn left um, that. hunter a bloody pulp just barely. clinging to life. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, sure. >> So, Colebourn is at the base and he's.

like called off to World War I. and that's, you know, even Canadian. friendliness has its levels. They're. like, "No, you can't take the bear with. you.". >> Yeah. >> So, he because he was stationed in. London, he took it to the London Zoo and. said, "Can you hang on to my bear for me. for a few years until I come back?". And the London Zoo said, "Sure." And in. the meantime, while he was gone, Winnie. the Bear became a huge sensation because. she'd been raised around humans, she was. very gentle. So much so that kids were.

able to interact with her, you know, smartly or otherwise. But by the time Colebourn came back from. World War I, he found like Winnie was so. beloved, he's like, "I think you belong. to London now, not me.". >> Yeah, and especially with that cute. voice that this bear had. You know. >> Mhm. >> Uh so now we got to go to the story of. A. A. Milne, the author of these books, Alan Alexander Milne. Um he was a writer before Winnie the. Pooh came along. He edited a humor.

magazine called Punch. Uh he was also um sent off to World War. I in 1914. and he came back a a a mess and. especially if you see this. uh this movie like um if that movie is. is the truth and it seems like it is. because it's based on that exhausted. book, then he had a pretty severe case. of PTSD after being injured and seeing. the horrors of war. >> Yes, and was very much um. uh his his view of the world was really.

wrecked as well. >> Yeah. >> Um like he just couldn't understand how. people could send other people off to. die like the way he saw people die. And um yeah, he had what they called at. the time shell shock. >> Yeah. >> Um and he, like you said, he had worked. for Punch magazine. He kind of. established himself, but um he continued. to write and he tried writing other. stuff. He wrote a play that was turned. into a silent movie. Um and he uh was an essayist as well. I think it wasn't until about the the.

early to mid-1920s that he really found. his calling and he found his calling. after he had his one and only child, um. Christopher Robin. >> Yeah, uh I mean I I kind of assume most. people knew that Christopher Robin was. the real kid's name, but if you didn't. know, surprise. >> You can't make that kind of name up. >> You can't. Uh his he had a nickname, which was Billy Moon. He was born in. 1920 and like you said, once he had this. little boy, he started writing. children's poetry.

and in 1923 wrote a poem called Vespers, which mentioned his son Christopher. Robin by name and the little stuffed. bear uh that he had. It was a it was a. real-life stuffed bear. uh and. if you're ever in New York City, go to. the New York City Public Library because. all these his little original stuffed. animals that these stories were based on. are sitting there and it's wonderful to. see. >> Yeah, under a glass case. And if you go. at the right time, after closing, you. can hear them banging on the glass. saying, "Let. >> [laughter]. >> me out.". >> Uh it's funny, I couldn't remember where.

I saw those when I was doing the. research. I was like, "I know I saw. those somewhere." And I couldn't. remember what museum and then when uh. who helps us with this? Julia? >> Yeah, Julia. This is a Julia joint. >> A Julia joint. Yeah, when she said that. it was a New York Public Library, I. remembered. >> Did you say, "By God, that's right"? >> [laughter]. >> I did, but you know, when you have a. little gnawing thing that you don't know. the answer to and it's so satisfying to. have that memory, even though it wasn't. a memory. >> Yeah, uh that's called my normal life, but I don't get the satisfying.

[laughter]. remembrance. It's just I have to just. give it up. >> Uh I'm sorry to hear that, but uh I'll. send you a little stuffed bear. >> Okay, fair enough. Um I have a question. for you though, Chuck. I think you might. be able to answer this. You said that. Winnie, Winnie was a girl bear in. Winnipeg, the Canadian bear. Um, and Winnie the Pooh is not a girl. So, how did Winnie. the Pooh get the name Winnie?

>> You're being coy, uh, but I'll play along. You know, like. I said, he had this real stuffed bear. He got it as a I think a one-year-old on. his first birthday from his mom, Daphne, and he nicknamed this bear, or he named. it, I guess, Edward. So, right out of the gate, uh, this bear is is gendered. And then later. on, the name Winnie comes around because. he, uh, meets that real bear that we were. talking about, Winnipeg, at the London. Zoo, nicknamed Winnie, so he changed.

Edward to Winnie and just said, "I guess. you're still a boy.". >> So, yeah. I think in the movie, or. somewhere, his dad said, "Well, is he a. boy, or is he a girl? I thought he was a. boy." He said, "He's neither. He's a. bear." Sure. Which is just a great. Christopher Robinism. >> Yeah, I agree. >> I knew So, Edward for a bear is not that. odd. It's actually kind of cute. But, I. knew a man once who had a dog named. Jason, and I still to this day think. that's the oddest dog name I've ever. heard. >> Yeah,

the real human names for dogs can be. funny, and I think Jason is one of them, but. there are definitely human names that. are more. that are funnier than others. >> [laughter]. >> Jason's pretty high up there. >> It is, but I don't think the guy was. being funny, which made it even. stranger. >> Yeah, I guess you're right. What What's. a funny name real name for a dog? I. mean, my in-laws had a dog named Josh. I. don't think I ever told you that. >> No. >> Yeah, they always named their their dogs. real names, like Josh and Toby and.

Uh, I can't remember. >> Toby I can see. Josh, that's a. surprising one, too. >> Yeah. How about. >> It's no Jason, >> though. >> How about Lois? >> [laughter]. >> See, now that's yeah, that's almost. that's starting to be that's. purposefully silly. >> Or Elizabeth. That's a weird dog name. >> That is a weird dog name, but I could. also see some real fru-fru like little. Pomeranian or something named Elizabeth. >> said Pomeranian. Look at us. >> So, okay. I think we were talking about. Winnie the Pooh at some point, right?

>> That's right. It went from Edward to. Winnie after he met the real Winnipeg. bear at the London Zoo. >> Well, while we're on it, what the heck. is the Pooh then? >> Well, Pooh I think came from. I think he was on vacation, the young. Christopher Robin Milne, and there was a. swan that he nicknamed Pooh that he fed. every morning, and apparently as the. story goes when the swan did not show. up, he would just say Pooh, like I don't. care if you're coming or not. >> Mhm.

>> Uh even though obviously he did, and so. I guess it just sort of morphed into. Winnie the Pooh, hyphenated at first. >> Yeah, pretty cute. >> Yeah. >> One of the all-time great names, too. Like I think that is in no small part. one of the reasons for Winnie the Pooh's. belovedness, that just is such a great. name. >> I agree. >> So, as we said, A. A. Milne was um. definitely suffering from PTSD, and he. was back in London. He was trying to, you know, pick up his career again, and. it was just those two things were not.

going very well together. So, he decided. that what would be best for him and in. turn his family was to leave the city. and move to Sussex, um which is I guess. it's called a home county. It's like a. exurb of London. It's not that far away, but it's pretty rural from what I. understand, and he bought Cotchford Farm. near this forest was just exactly the. kind of impetus they needed to to come. up with the 100-Acre Woods thanks to. forays with his son, which was he says. in the movie and I totally buy it that.

these were the happiest times of his. life making up games and stories with. his, you know, three, four, five-year-old son walking through. Ashdown Forest. >> Yeah, and I hate to issue a correction, but I know we're going to hear from. listeners. if you don't correct 100 Acre Wood. Singular. >> Thank you for Thank you. That's. absolutely true. >> A small thing, but it jumped out at me. >> Thank you. Well, yeah, if it jumped out. at you, we were definitely going to get. some mean [laughter] emails. How could you be so stupid?

>> I know. It's not an S. Uh how did you mention the uh the other. stuffed animals? I know I mentioned, you. know, all of them being in the New York. City Public Library, uh but all of those. characters that would eventually end up. in these books, he had his little. stuffies. He had a a little pig, he had. a little donkey, he had a tiger and a. kangaroo, and that bear, which is just. All this stuff couldn't be any sweeter. >> No, it's true. That little Piglet one is. is adorable. >> Yeah, very much. >> So, Mil- um he said he wrote Vespers,

and that apparently became quite. popular. It was just super sweet. It was. um definitely along the lines of what he. would later write for Winnie the Pooh. The first thing he did was start writing. uh children's poetry. And then uh as I said, like as he. started hanging out with his son in the. woods, just having fun time with him, >> Yeah. >> um he would bring a little Chris-. Christopher Robin would bring his. stuffed animals along on these walks, and um they became like characters in. the woods themselves, so the woods um.

very quickly became their home in these. stories they were making up. >> And what were their names? We haven't. even said these yet, I don't think. >> So, you've got Piglet, >> Mhm. >> man, I love Piglet. Uh you have Eeyore, the sad donkey, >> Yeah. >> Tigger, the hyperactive tiger, but. actually he's not really a tiger, he's a. tigger, he's one of a kind. >> Yeah. >> Kanga, the incredibly sweet and patient. mom, her Joey Roo, who's a lot of fun to have. around, and then of course Winnie the.

Pooh, [laughter]. the um willy-nilly silly old bear. >> Oh, goodness. Uh. it's just too much for me, so I got to. take a break if that's all right. >> Yeah, for sure. >> All right, I'm going to we're we'll be. right back everybody with more on Winnie. the Pooh. >> [music].

[music]. >> All right, everyone, we're back uh with. more sweetness. It's Christmas Eve 1925, and the London Evening News um publishes. a short story. and introduces the world to little Pooh. It was called The Wrong Sort of Bees, and it would be uh the first chapter of. a short story collection, or I guess. just a story collection. Well, they were.

short stories, right? >> They were short stories, sure. >> All right, great. Uh and that uh. publishes as a unit the next year, and. almost all of the characters were in. this first uh this first group, and they. all had their distinct personalities. that, you know, as we'll see later, uh. people extrapolated on like maybe what. the meaning of these personalities were, but what what what were they like? >> Well, there were two also that we didn't. mention, Rabbit and Owl. Um and that was. because there was no Rabbit or Owl. stuffed animal. They came later. But.

they were in this first um book. Tigger. was the only one who didn't make his. first appearance in the first story. book. He came out in the second one. But. Piglet, he was always very scared and. nervous and worried and anxious. Um. Rabbit was a perfectionist. He was very. much um. I like I never really caught on to his. character quite as much. But I I just. know that he was very much preoccupied. with everything going right, if I'm not. mistaken. >> Yeah. >> Owl was one of those guys who.

um likes to hear himself talk and would. just say stuff [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> that the other characters, you know, Winnie the Pooh frequently talked about. how he didn't have a brain or he was. filled with fluff or something like. that. Um and so, the other characters. are taking whatever Owl says is, you. know, correct, even though it's. sometimes wildly off. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh I think you already. mentioned earlier that Eeyore was, of. course, sad. >> Mhm. >> Uh and then Kanga was obviously is the. mom, a very nurturing character.

>> Mhm. >> And you got Roo, who was a little, you. know, he's a little rambunctious baby. >> He was like the Tiny Tim. >> Just sure. >> sweet and cute. Just having him present. was fun. >> Yeah, and that was The Wrong Sort of. Bees, and then you mentioned The House. on Pooh Corner's when Tigger comes. along. >> Mhm. >> And. we should talk about The Wrong Sort of. Bees like cuz it kind of just lays out a. template for. um I I guess things to come. And these. >> just so gosh darn cute, too. >> It's so cute, and it and it sets the.

tone for like these personalities and. what readers are in for, right? >> Yes. So, um in it uh. the the whole thing and actually the. book ends the same way in the opposite. direction, but Christopher Robin, the. real boy, comes down the stairs dragging his bear. by the arm and um asks his father to. tell him a story, well, tell his his. bear a story. And um that's how the whole thing. starts, that um Winnie the Pooh uh is. sitting under a sign that says Mr.

Sanders, um and that that's the only. mention that's ever made of it, as far. as I can tell. It's just such a weird. little detail. Um but, he starts trying. to go for honey because he he he. realizes he hears some bees and to him. the only purpose of bees is to make. honey for him to eat. >> Yeah, it's that honey pot always getting. him into trouble. >> Mhm. >> [laughter]. >> And it starts off right off the bat in. book one. So, he wants to climb up this. tree, obviously, get into that honey pot. Uh a branch. breaks and he falls down.

and uh to a little uh prickly prickly. bush and he's like, "All right, I've got. a new idea." I wish I could do the. voice. But he says he's got a new idea. He wants to become a cloud and trick. these bees. So, he uh decides to become. a dark cloud by rolling himself in mud, borrows a blue balloon uh from his. friend Christopher Robin so he can float. up. And he's like, "This is going to work. Uh. they're going to be scared of this dark. cloud and I'm going to get that honey. pot.". >> Yes. Uh but the bees don't seem to be uh.

buying it and so he asked Christopher. Robin to go get his umbrella and walk. underneath Pooh with the umbrella out. saying, "Tut, tut, it looks like rain.". to help fool the bees even further. That still doesn't work, but now Pooh. realizes that he's stuck up there. because if he um. if he just lets go of the balloon, he's. going to fall and it's going to hurt. >> That's right. Uh and the the title wrong. sort of bees comes from the fact that. the bees don't buy into his plan and. Pooh says, "These are the wrong sort of. bees." which is adorable.

>> It is. >> So, Christopher Robin uh helps him out, shoots a hole in that balloon and he uh. drifts down safely. Uh doesn't learn a lesson, which is a. very much established sort of thing for. Winnie the Pooh. Like he's still going. to go after the honey pot a million. times in the future. >> So, that was the first one. That was the. one that um premiered in the London. Evening Times on Christmas Eve 1925 and. that was the first chapter in that book. and the other ones are super cute, too.

Like there's one where Pooh goes to. visit Rabbit in his warren and um eats. too much he takes too much advantage of. um. Rabbit's hospitality and starts eating. condensed milk and honey, [laughter]. but he doesn't want to make a nuisance. of himself. So he very politely tells. Rabbit, "No need to get me any bread. I'll just eat the condensed milk and. honey as is." And he gained so much. weight that he can't get back out the. hole to Rabbit's warren and he gets. stuck and has to stay there for a week.

while he goes on a diet until he slims. down enough to be pulled out. >> Yeah, there's a lot of food and gluttony. related storylines with Winnie. >> For sure. For sure. But he's also adorable and one. of the other things that's so adorable. to me is the way that Christopher Robin. um. looks at Pooh and sees Pooh. He very. frequently thinks to himself, "Silly old. bear.". And um it's just such like a loving. tender. feeling that's just evoked in just that. little phrase that he he thinks of him.

and calls him sometimes and it's just. super cute. >> I love it. >> I don't know if we've gotten across this. stuff is [laughter] really cute. >> It is. >> Okay. >> So sugary sweet. So we should talk about. the illustrations a little bit because. they have become just completely iconic. Uh it was a illustrator named E. H. Shepard. And they're very you know it's. nothing fancy. It's pretty. straightforward stuff. I think I don't. think they became color. until 1931. Is that right? >> I didn't see that anywhere. I saw a.

couple references to it but all I ever. saw were black and white like just. pencil or just line illustrations. uncolored. >> Yeah, it's somewhere in here. So we'll. get to it. I think it was early 1930s. but yeah initially black and white. And. again nothing nothing fancy going on. Very simple sort of shapes and lines. Shepard also had gone to World War I and. had a pretty rough go of it. And it. seems like and you know this is in the. movie as well that uh. England just really sort of post-war.

England needed this sweetness in their. lives. >> Exactly. That's one reason why it's. posited it became so. um popular so quickly. This is like an. enormous sensation uh pretty much out of. the gate, as we'll see. Um. and I think that's also why a lot of. people point to it as as being just as. popular 100 years on, you know. It is. it's just people just need that kind of. sweet. um. like way of living and looking at life, you know, without being bowled over by.

it at every turn, you know? Just kind of. saying that's that's life. You just keep. going and be positive. >> Yeah, there's some good simple messages. in all these books. Um he originally modeled the. the drawings on the real stuffed animals. from Christopher Robin, except when he got to the final version. of Winnie, um that came from. inspiration. That was inspired by his. own kids' teddy bear, who was a little. chubbier, I think, than Christopher. Robin's. >> It was a good movie. >> Yeah. Not his real doll. You know what.

I'm saying. >> Right. He He also had to Like I said, there wasn't a rabbit or an owl doll. So, he had to use live models with. Christopher Robin holding them still on. the table, holding them down. so they wouldn't wriggle too much or get. away. >> Uh that reminds me of. If you look I might have said this. before at some point. If you look at. baby pictures of my brother, uh you will notice that my mother's hand. is in the photo propping him up because. my brother was so round, he would roll.

over and. in Olan Mills portrait, so. we have a lot of baby pictures of of. Scott with my mom's hand in there. >> [laughter]. >> Man, he's like a Weble that will wobble. but won't fall down. >> Yeah, and now now he can't gain a pound, you know, so. thanks for that. >> Yeah. Um one other thing about E.H. Shepard. that stuck stuck out to me is in that. the wrong sort of bees, that first chapter, >> Uh-huh. >> where Christopher Robin shoots the. balloon so that the air slowly comes out. so Pooh can come down safely to the.

ground. Um if you look at his gun, it's. a pop gun. There's like a cork on a. string hanging out of it, which I. thought was a good little touch from. E.H. Shepard. And that was like the kind. of thing that he would have done because. again, this this whole thing is like. that meant to be the antithesis or the. antidote to the war that that Europe. just went through. And I think that's. evidence of of how they were trying to. make things feel. >> Yeah, a bazooka would have been. completely inappropriate. >> With like smoke coming out of the end.

>> That would be weird. Uh, if you think. that some of this original stuff is very. valuable, you'd be right. Uh, because in. 2018, uh, the original 100 Acre Wood map. that Shepard hand drew sold at auction. for $568,761. Uh, which set a record for a single book. illustration. >> Yeah. >> And then just last year in 2025, uh, someone paid a 120 or close to 120 grand. for a collection of Milne's early drafts.

and like, you know, poems, illustrations, uh, stuff like that. And. apparently there was some notes, uh, to Shepard from Milne that says the. illustrations were very poor. Not cool. >> So that's that hand-drawn map of the 100. Acre Wood that went for almost 600 K. Um, I was looking at it and it's purported. to have been. drawn, with scare quotes, by Christopher. Robin with the help of E.H. Shepard cuz.

it says drawn by me. and then it says Mr. Shepard helped, like h e l p d. >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah, like I that, you know, that makes it kind of cute. >> Yeah, once again, cuteness abounds with. all these. sad sad adults trying to work their way. through their war drama. >> Agreed. And again, like we said, there's. some other bittersweet sadness to do as. well behind the scenes. But before we. get to that, I said that this is like a. a huge huge phenomenon right out of the.

gate. >> Yeah. >> Um. I think it sold 200,000 copies in Great. Britain and the United States by the end. of the year, which is even more. impressive when you realize that it came. out in October. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> That is unheard of at the time. Um it. was like. on the level of what Mickey Mouse would. soon be. I think Steamboat Willie came. out around the same time, but. >> Yeah. >> I don't think it was quite as big as as. um. as Winnie the Pooh was. And um it he Winnie the Pooh became the.

first like mass marketed children's. character. thanks to a guy named Stephen Slesinger. who bought the Canadian and US rights in. in 1930. >> Yeah, he paid $1,000. plus plus royalties. Uh I'm not sure how. that worked. I was trying to get more. detail, but it's hard to find you know, stuff about these old deals. >> Mhm. >> Uh and. I don't is could this number be correct. or did did Julia already Westegg that. number up? >> I don't think so. I could see it being.

correct. >> All right. So, according. I'm going to blame Julia if this is. wrong. >> [laughter]. >> But within a year of purchasing the. rights to Pooh and and company. uh apparently he was making. in 1931 dollars, 50 million bucks a year. on merch and media, which would be. uh over a billion dollars a year in. today money. >> I mean, he put it on absolutely.

everything and licensed it to to a lot. of people to do more than just make toys. with, like to make like little. um animated shorts or make um records. that were you know, the stories acted. out, that kind of stuff. So, I mean, that is a lot of money, but. Julia is usually pretty good about. saying like in today dollars or. something when she means that. >> Yeah, I mean I what I tried to do was. look up Schlesinger's like net worth. when he died and they didn't, you know, they don't have kind of information on.

that kind of stuff cuz I think he died. in the 1950s maybe. Uh but he was. well-known in the business for like. merchandising and buying rights to a lot. of characters and the. there's a really long detailed uh I. don't even know all the details story of. the the rights and how that worked over. the years. >> Mhm. >> uh because Milne died in 1956 and left. the rights to his widow through a trust. and uh to his widow and three. organizations, the Westminster School, the Royal Literary Fund, and the Garrick.

Club. And Disney bought the rights uh. from the widow at least that she. controlled in '61 and struck a deal with. the other four or I'm sorry, the other. three organizations to like, you know, pay them out semi-annually. >> Mhm. >> And then I think in 2001, Disney bought. it outright from those other entities. for 350 million bucks. >> Wow. >> But it's. the article went on and on about like. more nuance and subtleties over the. years and lawsuits and all this kind of. crazy stuff obviously when you're.

dealing with hundreds of millions of. bucks, but. >> Mhm. >> long story short, Disney ultimately uh. acquired all the rights because I think. Walt Disney's daughter really loved. Winnie the Pooh and he was like, "I'll. buy it for you then.". >> Yeah, she said, "Get it for me, Daddy. I. want [laughter] it.". >> And I don't think we mentioned the real. Christopher Robin voiced. Christopher Robin on those early records. and radio shows, right? >> Yes, he became a overnight sensation. His dad became a celebrated literary. sensation overnight as well. Um because.

not just kids, but adults loved Winnie. the Pooh right out of the gate as well. Um so yes, they became a huge smash hit. and the toast of England at least if not. further uh which became problematic for. them for sure. Um I say we take a break. and we'll come back and talk about some. of those problems after, well, the. break. >> Let's do it. >> Okay. >> [music].

[music]. [music]. [music]. >> Okay, Chuck. Thanks for leaving it to me. to kick this part off, but [laughter]. as we mentioned that movie from 2017, Goodbye Christopher Robin, was based on a biography of A.A. Milne.

from 1990. And I don't remember the the. biographer's name, but it was like it it did not, like I. said, pull many punches, if any. And it. was starring Domhnall Gleeson, Brendan. Gleeson's son. >> Yeah. >> Have you um Yeah, he was in Ex Machina, a few other movies, but he was also in. Frank. Have you ever seen Frank? >> I don't think so. What What was that? >> It's a indie film about a indie band led.

by a guy with a giant paper mache head. who no one has ever seen. He will He. will not take it off. >> Yeah. >> And it turns out it's Fassbender playing. Frank. >> Yeah, yeah, that's that's a true story. >> Is it? >> Yeah, and I think our old buddy Jon. Ronson wrote the book that that was. based on, if I'm not mistaken. >> Well, that is a great great movie. I'm. guessing the book's even better cuz. that's usually the case. >> Yeah, I didn't read the book or see the. movie. I need to do both. >> Go see the movie, for sure. It's It's a.

great little movie. I would recommend it. to anybody. >> Yeah, that that was a weird true story. And of course, right up Jon Ronson's. alley. >> For sure. So, uh anyway, the the that was neither. here nor there, but the point of Goodbye. uh Christopher Robin was this uh this. idea that A.A. Milne essentially stole. um Christopher Robin, the real-life. Christopher Robin's childhood, and sold. it in book form. He packaged it and sold.

it and got very, very rich off of it. And his son became very, very unhappy. even before he realized that that's even. before he could put into to words. >> Yeah. >> something like that. He just knew. something was quite wrong, and he did. not like all of the attention. He liked. it at first, but very quickly it became. um overwhelming and overtaxing for him. and his nanny uh Olive, who he loved. very much. >> Right. Who in the movie was played by uh. what's her name from. >> Kelly Macdonald? >> Yeah, Trainspotting.

Uh that book, by the way, was written by. Ann Thwaite. >> Thank you. >> And um. in that book, she goes on to sort of. detail how. in some ways this kind of I don't know. if I want to go so far as to say ruined. their lives, but [laughter]. it wasn't a great thing. Like, you know, this was a writer, A.A. Milne, who. wanted to do other things. He was like, I don't I'm I don't want to write this. stuff anymore. I was a satirist to begin. my career and then a playwright. And. nobody wanted that. Everyone just wanted.

more Pooh. And he felt, you know, I think this. happens sometimes when you get a big. breakout hit with a thing, um sort of. imprisoned by that thing. >> Yeah, and something similar happened to. E.H. Shepard, although I don't think to. nearly the degree that it happened to to. A.A. Milne and Christopher Robin in his. real life, not his career, his real. life. He ran into the same problems that. his father ran into with his career, but. um you know, the the point is made that. Shepard.

was a he was a political cartoonist, so. he had a edgy, satirical. >> Yeah. >> like career as well, and people were. like draw some more like piglets for us. >> Right. >> But I did see that he continued to have. a very long illustrious career at Punch. magazine into the late 40s. So he wasn't. you know, his career wasn't totally. derailed like AA Milne's was. >> He's like here's Pooh as Uncle Sam. >> Exactly. And here he is as Chairman Mao. >> So.

Christopher Robin Milne had a rough go. like you said, he was bullied. All kind. of all throughout school, kind of that. thing where anytime. you know, you think like being a famous. kid is a cool thing, but it seems to. never work out that way at school. Like. you become a target. He went off to war, enlisted to to kind of prove that you. know, all the kids would call him names. They would call him a and like. names that they said you know, at the. time like that. And went off to war,

graduated college, and even in his. professional life like. I get the idea it's sort of like you. know, he goes to get a job and they're. like wait, Christopher Robin you're that. Christopher Robin? >> No way. >> And yeah, and he just had a hard time. breaking free of being that character. even though he was a a real human. >> Yeah. He and he became more and more resentful. especially as he was able to put into. words what he felt like his father did. for him or to him. As far as his. childhood goes and also.

his father wasn't exactly like walking. around with his heart on his sleeve. He. was supposedly was very very reserved. Maybe even more than Domhnall Gleeson. portrays him in that movie. >> Oh wow. >> According to the real Christopher Robin. later in life. So for. his adolescence all the way up to middle. age, he had a seething resentment for. his father. And it wasn't until later in life that. he finally was able to happily make. peace not just with his father, but also.

with Winnie the Pooh. >> Yeah. >> to appreciate Winnie the Pooh again. because Christopher Robin, the real-life. Christopher Robin, ironically, was the. one kid in the entire world over. generations who hated Winnie the Pooh. >> [laughter]. >> And he was able to overcome it, which I. think is a really triumphant story. But. he had a quote I read when he was, I. think, age 60. He said, "My father had got where he was. by climbing on my infant shoulders. He. filched from me my good name and left me. with nothing but the empty fame of being.

his son.". >> Oof. >> That's what how he felt about his father. for decades. >> Man, that is rough. And and his dad was. a deeply damaged human because of the. war. >> Yeah. >> Uh yeah, we promised sadness, everyone, so I hope we're delivering. uh on that. Uh yeah, 1932 is when he got. color. uh on a record sleeve, and that's when. the iconic red shirt became a thing. And uh. I guess we should talk a little bit. about the the Disney cartoons. Like I. said, they uh got the rights in '61, and.

uh I think 5 years after that the first. feature that came out, Winnie the Pooh. and the Honey Tree. >> Mhm. >> And all of a sudden it was like a you. know, a living, breathing, moving thing. on the big screen, and people drank this. in as much as they did the books. >> Yeah, I think it it outshined the first. live-action movie that it was paired. with in theaters, The Ugly Dachshund, starring Suzanne Pleshette and Dean. Jones. It looked like a stink bomb.

>> I think I saw that, actually. >> Did you really? It's basically like a. giant dog that is playing with. dachshunds and thinks it's a dachshund. For like an hour and a half. It's It was. It just looked awful. Um plus there's something about Dean. Jones I've never put my finger on, but I. I don't know. I don't I just don't see. him as a. family film kind of guy, even though. that's mainly what he was in. >> Oh, interesting. I don't know. I wonder. if there's a Subway Jared story in there. somewhere. >> I don't know. Maybe that far, but I. could see him like shouting at the like.

the child actors like in between takes. about how how terrible they're doing. >> [laughter]. >> I love you created the scenario. >> Yeah, I know. >> Poor guy. Uh. so, the as far as the Disney movies go. in the featurettes, uh it was like an all-star team from. Disney from the beginning. Um it was. directed The originals were directed by. uh Woolie Reitherman, who was one of the. legendary nine old men of Disney, who. were these nine dudes, that's the name. Walt Disney gave them, who were who kind of like all those.

early kind of up through like the late. '70s even. I think one of them even. worked until the mid-'80s. All those. early animated uh movies were these nine. dudes kind of running the show. And then they had an all-star cast uh. voicing these things, too, right? Not. like these days all-star cast, when it's. like Patton Oswalt and Maya Rudolph, like. back in the day when they were animated. voice stars. >> Yeah, well, Sterling Holloway, he's a great example. He was Kaa, the. serpent in The Jungle Book. >> Mhm.

>> He played [clears throat] the stork in. Dumbo, um who I think he's like drunk and and. accidentally delivers Dumbo somewhere. else, right? >> Yeah. >> Um you would just totally recognize his. voice and probably his face, too, cuz he. was in a lot of like live-action movies, too. Um but he played uh Winnie the. Pooh. And I can't hear Winnie the Pooh as any. other voice but his. >> Yeah, totally. Uh Barbara Luddy did the. lady voice for Lady and the She. was uh Kanga. Uh Clint Howard, of course, a famed.

actor. And I hate to have to say this, but he. is Ron Howard's brother. I'm sure he. gets tired of that designation, though. >> I would think so. I've heard he's. actually a really cool dude and kind of. easygoing, so he probably doesn't let on. that it bothers him. He was also the star of the terrible. terrible movie The Ice Cream Man, which RiffTrax does, and it's so bad I. can't even watch RiffTrax to it. Oh, no. But get this, my brother-in-law is. producing a remake of the Ice Cream Man.

So, I'm. kind of excited to see that. Yes, I. don't know if if Mila's in it or not, but I know my brother-in-law's. producing. >> got to be, right? >> Hopefully, she'll at least have some. sort of walk-on, you know, where she. like spikes the camera and waves. >> [laughter]. >> in the background. One of those. >> That'd be great. So, Clint Howard was. Roo. Buddy Baker was the composer. He did the. Mickey Mouse Club theme. You know, the legendary animators of the. early days of Disney were all put on. this, of course. And they just started.

kind of pumping these things out one. after the other in the. late '60s. you know, through the mid-'70s and. beyond. >> Yes, and I mean, when you say pumping. them out, I feel like we should also. accompany that with like these were also. like Oscar-winning shorts, too. >> Yeah. >> It really started getting pumped out in. like the '90s with a lot of like. direct-to-DVD stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> Um these were still very much like cared. for and and like like they were a big. deal whenever they were produced, you.

know what I mean? >> Yeah, it didn't seem like, "Hey, how can. we print more money next?". >> Exactly. That started in the '80s and. '90s. >> [laughter]. >> So, now I think we should finish up a. little bit with um. this thing that's happened with Winnie. the Pooh over the years, which is it is. a wonderful children's. uh story or set of stories and films and. everything, but it has always uh or very. soon after I feel like branched out as. like.

being kind of. co-opted, but not in a bad way, as like, "Hey, there's a lot more to Winnie the. Pooh than meets the eye." And we're. talking like religion, mental health, uh philosophy, and as we'll see, even. political resistance. >> How do you feel about Winnie the getting. that kind of treatment? >> Oh. >> Or being used in that manner. That's. what I should say. >> I don't I don't mind it. >> Okay. >> What about you? I mean, I don't think it. totally like disrupts the purity of it. because it's. >> No. >> it's people sort of like saying, "Hey,

these are There's a lot of like life. philosophies you can draw from each of. these characters' distinct point of. view, you know?". >> Sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think. that even if it stunk across the board, >> Yeah. >> somehow it still wouldn't spoil Winnie. the Pooh. as Winnie the Pooh. You know what I'm. saying? >> Yeah. >> And I think that's also evidence, Chuck, by the fact that the original books, the. original stories, uh coexist alongside. the Disney-fied version. >> Yeah. >> Like one of the things Disney is just. known for is taking the original and.

redoing it in such a way that it has to. consume the original. >> Mhm. >> and basically wipe it out of existence. to create to produce the Disney-fied. version. >> Yeah. >> Um like AI companies scanning old books. and destroying them, right? >> Yeah. >> Uh it was it's essentially what Disney. did. Winnie the Pooh survived that, and. that's really notable and noteworthy, and that says a lot about Winnie the. Pooh, too, I think. >> Yeah. Winnie Winnie uh shall not be. denied his place.

>> No. Winnie the Pooh will take his place. by force if you don't give it to him. >> That's right. Well, God, we should. mention that movie at the end. >> Oh, okay. [laughter]. >> So, uh I mentioned philosophy at first. Uh there was a book in 1995. um called Pooh and the Philosophers, where all of the characters are sort of. um written about to as embodying uh. these all the famous philosophers. Uh. Plato, Kant, uh Descartes, Pooh was. Nietzsche. >> Mhm.

>> And uh then that followed actually that. was 1995, but earlier than that, and I. remember this in the '80s, uh The Tao of. Pooh in 1982. And how do you pronounce that? The. >> The. day. >> of Tiggle of Piglet? >> Mhm. So Dow is the way or the path and. day is virtue. >> Okay, so that was the 82 and 92 and that. looks at the characters obviously. through the lens of Taoism. >> Might be D. I'm not sure. But yeah, so Pooh actually that one. really works and that's probably by far.

the most celebrated adaptation of Winnie. the Pooh. Um because the the point of. the Dow of Pooh is that Pooh is a. perfect example of the the. goal of Taoism which is Wu Wei which is. not doing. >> Yeah. >> And that doesn't mean you just sit. around not doing anything. It means like. you go with the flow of nature rather. than trying to oppose it to bend it to. your will and that that's perfectly. embodied by Pooh who just kind of. happily goes along and and.

you know, completely rebounds from. obstacles and problems and just moves a. different direction essentially. >> Yeah. Uh they've also and. >> Like. >> uh mental illness treatment and. self-help books and things uh they have. been assigned. um. Well, you know, seems sort of obvious. that maybe Eeyore's depressed or maybe. Piglet has anxiety. Uh Tigger they say has ADHD and again, it's sort of you know, this one feels a. little more gross to me but if it's.

helping people then that's fine. >> I wonder though if it is, you know? Maybe. >> Yeah. >> I could see Tigger with ADHD like. helping a kid with ADHD better but. >> I think that's probably what they use it. for, don't you think or. >> I don't know. I think they use it for. think pieces that can be really. annoying. >> Yeah, I mean I've seen a lot of shrinks. over the years and no one ever brought. this up to me. >> No, unless they're like cheer up Eeyore, jeez. >> Yeah, it's a good point. >> That's what my shrink always says to me. >> Uh and then we got to talk a little bit. about the political resistance thing. So.

in 2017 there were some satirical memes. around about Chinese President uh, Xi. Jinping. And like, hey, that's when he like. depicting him as Winnie the Pooh. So, it's China, so they were like, "You know. what? We're going to kind of. almost ban Winnie the Pooh, basically.". >> Yeah, you cannot, um, legally put a. picture of Winnie the Pooh and a picture. of President Xi next to one another. That's illegal in China now. And so, of. course, South Park got wind of this and.

dedicated a whole episode to, you know, skewering China over it and I think they. kill Winnie the Pooh in it. Yeah. Uh, so China outlawed South Park, which. is surprising to me that that that is. when they outlawed South Park. It seems. like they would have outlawed South. [laughter] Park back in the aughts, you. know? This is 2019. And then the Taiwanese Air Force kind of. took that and ran with it and they they. have a patch, some of the pilots have a. patch of a Formosan black bear, which is. not a native to Taiwan, punching Winnie.

the Pooh in the face. And I don't like the concept of Winnie. the Pooh being punched in the face, but. it is a pretty funny looking patch, I. have to say. >> Yeah, and then, you know, the movie we. referenced that we're going to mention. that you I had seen this trailer before. when it came out. I guess the idea is. that Winnie the Pooh eventually entered. the public domain, uh, which means people were going to do. awful things. What was the name of the. movie? >> Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey. >> Yeah, so it plays Winnie the Pooh as. like a murderous bear.

>> Yeah, who, uh, after Christopher Robin. left them and and never came back, they. went feral and but they also are able to. use axes and handguns and stuff like. that. So, it's a slasher flick flick. with Winnie the Pooh and friends. exacting revenge on Christopher Robin. and his friends. And it's live action, which makes it even more bizarre. >> Yeah, and the Pooh looks pretty good, um, you know, the character they created. I. I remember when that came out and. reading about the news about the public. domain or whatever. And, uh, I don't.

think it's supposed to be very good, but. I still like to see some of it, I guess. >> Me too. The coolest adaptation I saw is. called The Call of Cthulhu. And it is, I think, a dozen different. authors, horror authors, writing Winnie. the Pooh stories, but then weird like. Cthulhu Mythos stuff like from Lovecraft. is woven in. >> Oh, that's cool. >> And it sounds awesome. So, it's coming. to my house on Monday. >> Oh, cool. I love it. >> Can't wait. >> Uh the the you know, Pooh is as big as. ever. Uh I believe it's never been out.

of print. Uh The House at Pooh Corner, at least. Um these stories are available. in more than 50 languages, have sold. more than 50 copies around the world. Uh. this is a little fun fact. The Latin. language version is in 1958 is the only. Latin language book to ever make the New. York Times bestseller list, which is. pretty pretty cool. >> Yeah. >> For sure. And you can actually go to the. the setting of the 100 Acre Wood, um. Ashdown Forest, which is basically I.

don't want to say it's been converted. into the 100 Acre Wood, but there's. definitely Pooh-related stuff all over. the place. And for good reason. I mean, like if you're going to go there, you. kind of want to see the stuff that that. originally inspired this. So, there's. the Poohsticks Bridge, which is where. the game of Poohsticks where you drop a. each person drops a stick in the water, and then you run to the other side of. the bridge to see whose stick passes. under the bridge fast fastest, and. that's the winner. There there was an. original bridge from uh I don't know.

when it was, but they rebuilt it, but. true to its original form. So, that's. still there. I think Eeyore's house is. there. There's a bunch of cool stuff to. do. >> Yeah, I bet there's a gift shop. >> There definitely is. It's called Pooh. Corner. And not only can you buy uh gifts there, you can also buy coffee and maybe even. have tea, like a high tea there. >> Oh. >> I would guess. I'm I'm surmising, but. I'll bet I'm right. >> Yeah, that sounds fun. Um I mentioned, you know, the New York Public Library, they've been there the little original.

stuffy since 1987, except for Roo, which. apparently was uh left behind in an. apple orchard, I guess, by Christopher. Robin, and just this year, just a few. months ago, in fact, in April, uh Queen. Camilla. Queen Camilla. gifted the library an exact replica of. that original stuffy, and I I believe. that one's there. So, I did not see that. one because I went a couple years ago. >> Uh well, you need to go back. >> Yeah, see that that recreation? >> Yep. Uh if you want to be reminded of your.

humanity every once in a while, just go. read the last chapter of The House at. Pooh Corner. That's the second of the. only two actual Winnie the Pooh story. collections that A.A. Milne wrote, and. uh Christopher Robin is essentially. saying goodbye without saying goodbye, because he's starting to grow up, and. now he has to go to school, and he can't. just do nothing all day, and he's trying. to explain it to Pooh, and Pooh's not. really catching on, but they managed to. kind of communicate uh in their own way.

in the end, and it is really touching. Like, just go read it now. >> Yeah, and bring the Kleenex. >> It's so great. >> Yeah. >> It's It's cute, too. Um so, Chuck, uh I say that's it for. Winnie the Pooh for now, okay? >> [music]. >> Yeah. I'm sad to leave him behind. >> Yeah. Well, we have to. We We have to go. to school. >> [laughter]. >> Aw. >> Uh if you want to know more about Winnie. the Pooh, go read the last chapter in. The House at Pooh Corner. It's a great. place to start, and uh in the meantime, we're going to do listener mail.

>> You know what just happened? You said. it's time to go to school, and that was. such a sweet sentiment, but. for some reason, immediately in my. brain, I pictured you and I on a school. bus, and like me shooting spitballs, and. you with a pocketknife like carving. something in the seat in front of you. >> [laughter]. >> Wowee. All right. All right, I'll go. that way, just for just for a day. >> It's just what popped into my head. Uh. all all right, listener mail. This is a. very sad one, so just [music] warning to. everybody. >> Thanks for that.

>> Uh hey guys, I'm writing and listening. from Chile. Uh last year my wife passed. away. at uh only 29 years of age after. battling a rare kind of cancer, uh NUT. carcinoma. Uh maybe it can inspire. [music] an episode, guys. But through. this battle, we often escaped to my. mother-in-law's house on the beach to. find some peace and quiet, and it was. our tradition to listen to two episodes. of Stuff You Should Know cuz the 2-hour. drive on our way there and then two more. on our way back. Uh slowly but steadily, you guys became an important part of our. travels and brought us knowledge, joy, and laughter on many grim occasions. And.

this week, I came back to that coast. after almost a year of not being able to. do so because of the memories. And when. I did, the first thing I did was put on. the podcast uh and have you guys come. along. It would mean [music] Sorry, I'm getting. emotional here. >> That is so sweet. You So Chuck, you just. beeped uh cuz you cleared your throat. and I was like, "Is Chuck getting choked. up?" And yes, you are. That is amazingly. sweet. >> I know I'd have a hard time with this. one. Uh guys, it would mean uh the world to. me if you could dedicate an episode in. the memory of Jacinta.

who especially loved and laughed at. Josh's laugh. Uh keep up the good work. and may you come with me to many more. trips. And that is from Lucas. And I told Lucas it was going to be in. this episode and. uh that there was a a cancer episode. coming out soon, but uh I'd rather tag. it with this one and this this one's. dedicated to Jacinta. >> Good idea, Chuck. That was perfect. Thank you for that. Thank you for that, Lucas, for um listening to us all this. time and for letting us know. the little role we played in your life.

and Jacinta's life. So, thank you. >> Yeah. >> Um I don't know what else to say, Chuck. That was just great. If you want to uh make Chuck and I quiet. at the end of an episode, take your best. shot. You can send it off via email to. stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. >> [music]. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeartRadio. For more [music] podcasts. from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.