Why Would Anyone Want to Appease Hitler? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck, and we're just. goostepping to Jerry's orders like usual. here on Stuff You Should Know. >> No, no, no, no. >> Thank you. I'm glad you cleared that up. for the new listeners who are like, "Oh, these guys are Nazis. I hadn't. realized." No, this is I I really. enjoyed uh studying this one because I,

as you know, am not the biggest student. of uh war. >> So, I never like sat around and watched. the History Channel and and this one is. very much a History Channel type of. episode. >> Mhm. >> So, I feel like I have a much better. understanding of the the leadup to World. War II. And also, it's amazing how much this reflects. modern times and what's going on with. Russia and Ukraine. >> For real. For real. I kept going like, "Oh, oh, oh, >> yeah." I mean, it's there's a very clear.

line you can draw between what the. Allies did to appease Hitler and what a. lot of people are concerned that the. West is doing to appease Putin right. now. You can also see though, I think there's. another lesson to be learned too, where. >> um once you kind of understand what the. Allies did preWorld War II and why they. were trying to appease Hitler, which in. retrospect from our position here in. history seems like the dumbest, most. cowardly thing you could have done. >> Yeah. >> If you understand what their actual. reasoning was for that, and also that.

they didn't have the benefit of. hindsight. >> Yeah. then you can kind of understand a. little more like what a weird position. we're in right now, you know, or why. people would even consider doing that to. Putin now. >> Yeah, for sure. Um yeah, so uh I guess. broadly we should just say that. appeasement was an official policy. um leading up to World War or you know. they didn't know there was going to be a. World War II but looking back once again. leading up to World War II. >> uh that the Western Allies took where in. a nutshell they were basically like uh.

you know what let's sort of let uh. Germany and we need to point out we're. going to over and over that that they. did not know Hitler was the madman we. know him now but. >> no they mistook him terribly. >> Yeah. They were like, "Let's let. Germany. I think Hitler just wants to. kind of get Germany back on on footing. after World War I and after the Treaty. of Versailles kind of wrecked Germany. and we need a strong Germany in Europe. and like let's give him what he wants. and he says he'll stop there and and we. believe him.". >> Yeah. And like you said, they they took.

Hitler to be just like any other. statesman leading a European power, which was that he was a patrician. colonizer who at the end of the day. answered to the aristocracy of his. country. Yeah. >> And that really he was more a threat to. um other people, lesser people. throughout the world who who whose lands. he wanted to turn into colonies. And we. just needed to bring him into the normal. European way of doing things. Germany. will be back on its feet again. That was.

the kind of the darker explanation of. appeasement. Another explanation was. they had just been through World War I. >> Yeah. >> A dozen years before when all this. really kind of started and um no one was. in the mood for a second world war. So. appeasement was the official policy by. the UK and France and then some of their. supporters over time that said if we. give you the stuff you're asking for. now, we're hoping that eventually you're. going to reach your limit. You're going. to get what you wanted and you're just. going to be calm and and and.

everything's going to be cool from that. point on. We won't have to get in your. way militarily. Thus, we'll avoid a war. So let's try this instead. So. ultimately, it was a way to prevent. World War II. That was the entire point. of appeasement really from the outset. >> Well, yeah. Cuz I mean at the time, like. you said, after World War I, none of. these countries uh what would end up. being the Western Allies were in a great. position. They were still trying to. build up armaments. Um some slower than. others. Germany wasn't in a great.

position. So, it's kind of interesting. At the end, we're going to go over a. couple of like. >> alternate histories of different taxs. that could have played out or different. plans that they could have taken. And. who knows how it would have worked out, but I guess we should start with the. Treaty of Versailles, right? >> Yeah, for sure. >> So, this was after World War I and the. Treaty of Versailles um came along and. was signed and it really it really. pounded Germany. Uh and and some. historians even say like it went too far. as far as being punitive. Um it Germany.

had to reduce their army from 1.9. million troops to a 100,000. >> Mhm. uh they had to get rid of most of. their navy and they had to hand back. territories that it had taken over the. last hundred years and then pay hundreds. of billion dollars in reparations. >> Yeah. So not only was it like. financially strapping them, remember. this is the time when German. hyperreinflation happened during the. Weimar Republic, which is between World. War I and two. This is why. >> And then also it was like demoralizing.

It was meant to to basically smack. Germany down and be like, you're lesser. now. we're punishing you. And so I saw a. quote I I forgot to send it to you. I. don't remember who said it, but. essentially they said, "This is not a. treaty. This is an armistice for 20. years.". >> And it was somebody who looked at this. in 1919. And 20 years later, World War. II broke out because it was so punitive. There was no way that the German people. were not going to eventually rise up in. retaliation for this and we were going. to have a second world war. So, a lot of.

people point to that treaty as being the. thing that. >> didn't necessarily directly lead to. World War II, but it laid all the. groundwork to create a populace that was. in a vengeful mood that would be willing. to support somebody like uh with such. nationalistic fervor as Hitler. >> Yeah. And that's what Hitler was cooking. up from the beginning. He was basically. like, "Hey, we we want to get Germany. back together. Uh we need to get all of. our rightful lands um basically where. any Germanic peoples are and where. anybody is speaking German and also as.

we'll see um uh help out any German. minorities to our east um you know which. is Russia and the Soviet Union at the. time. >> because they're going to come into play. and he he whipped up this this. nationalistic uh fervor that everyone in. Germany got behind and that's you know. what eventually would of course lead to. World War II but I guess we should take. it sort chronologically because there. were a series of appeasements starting. in 1935. >> kind of one after the other until.

finally, you know, they could take no. more. >> Yeah. And just bear this in mind while. you're hearing all of these like high. points of how we move toward World War. II thanks to Germany. Hitler followed. the this awareness or this belief by the. UK and France that what Germany really. wanted to do was climb back out of from. under the Treaty of Versailles and just. get back to where they were before. >> So Hitler followed that to a te all of. his demands all of the aggressions that. he made were based on the Treaty of.

Versailles. And yet in retrospect now we. realize no these were he was always. going to try to go way further than. that. He was just playing upon the. suppositions of the the allies at the. time. >> Oh god. He he I mean after studying all. this stuff he he played them for such. suckers. >> He did. And what's what makes it a. little worse though too is he wrote all. this stuff out in in 1925 in my comp. It's all laid out that that push to the. east you're talking about where he wants. to make more room for German nationals.

that are outside of Germany. The Lebanon. shrom which basically says we're going. to Russia eventually. like they knew. this for 10 years before he really. became a huge problem and everybody just. ignored it. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. He's like I wrote a book. about it and I guess you guys don't read. German because I basically said what I. was going to do, >> right? >> Uh all right. So 1935 was the the first. sort of wave of appeasement. Uh and this. was the Anglo-German naval agreement. basically where Britain said, "You know. what? we know that you're breaking the.

Treaty of Versailles because we know. you're building up your navy even though. you were supposed to scuttle your navy. and go ahead and build a new fleet. Um, a lot of people saw that as just sort of. an initial surrender to what Hitler. wanted. But. >> Britain knew that they were cheating. already. They had uh MI6 on the ground. uh specifically an agent uh named Carl. Krueger in their Yubot design office, which was, you know, a secret program at. the time. and they thought, "Hey, maybe. we can get them to build fewer yubot by.

endorsing them building these really big. expensive battleships that cost a lot of. money and a lot of raw materials. >> and it'll kind of kill their yubot. program." Uh, it didn't exactly work. They um were supposed to build 72. submarines and ended up building 54, but. I don't know if they were like, you. know, hooray about that. So yeah, the. that that in and of itself is a problem. Like this grand policy of like making. them spend resources, it really didn't. lead to that big of a reduction. But. geopolitically speaking, it it basically.

said the UK was endorsing now Germany. breaking the Treaty of Versailles by. agreeing with them that Germany could. build its navy back up. >> Yeah. >> There was also another thing that had. nothing to do with Germany, but really. played into this later on. Um France was. led by a couple of different um. appeasement proppeasement prime. ministers or premers uh during this time. and they were good friends with Italy. and Italy invaded Ethiopia as you'll.

remember from our Holly Salasi episode. >> in 1935 and France said you know what go. with it Italy we don't care about that. just promise us that if things go down. if the S hits the fan or le S hits. lethan. um you will be on our side against. Germany and Italy said yes definitely. you got it 100%. And then they just went. and ravaged Ethiopia. >> Yeah. And we all know how that turned. out in the end. >> Exactly. >> Uh so in 1936 that was those first two.

were 35. In 1936 um Germans west the. Rhineland uh they they wanted to. remilitarize that area. That again went. against the Treaty of Versailles because. that was supposed to be a buffer zone uh. the western part of Germany. Mhm. >> And they had there was a chance here to. forcefully uh respond here because they. had Czechoslovakia and Romania saying. like, "Hey, you know, we're we we got. your back if you want to do anything.". But France and Britain basically did.

nothing. >> No. Again, France just kind of said, "Nah, we're we're kind of busy with our. own stuff as we'll see, right?" And a. lot of people also and who were heading. the politics in Western Europe at the. time were like, "Yeah, good on them. Germany. They got that taken away from. him in the Treaty of Versailles. Let. them have it back. That's Germany, you. know. >> Yeah. >> There was also the Anloo, which was a. different category after the. remilitarization of the Ryan Land. because this was where they annexed. Austria. Austria was a sovereign nation.

It was not a part of Germany before. World War I, as far as I know. Please. God, don't let me be wrong about that. one. >> I know. >> And Germany just said, "Austria, you're. now part of Germany. you guys are. Germanic by heritage, so you're just. part of Germany now. And the world just. turned their heads and said, "Yeah, I. guess that's fine, too." You know, Germany's doing its Germanic thing. >> Yeah. And you know, we're going to talk. a little bit about public opinion here. and there, but at the time, uh, this was. March 1938, and this was Nebel.

Chamberlain as PM in Britain. >> And they the Brits didn't want to get. involved. There was about 25% in a. survey uh were in favor of you know um a. deterrent policy. So you know I guess. it's not aggression but determent. >> Yeah. Most people were were in favor of. continuing to just kind of go along with. Germany restabilizing or regaining what. it had before the Treaty of Versailles. because again this is what people are. thinking. But if you'll notice we've. we've started to pick up speed a little. bit here. Like bigger things are.

starting to happen. That was March of. 1938 when they took over Austria. And. then in September, Hitler had been basically making. speeches where he was saying, "Hey, there's this part, he called it the rump. of Czechoslovakia that butts up against. Germany." That's really actually. Germany. It's called the Sudatan land. >> and it's this basically this mountain. range. Czechoslovakia doesn't care about. it, but we care about it because we're. reuniting Germany again. So, we want. that and we're going to go take it. whether you want us to or not. and.

Neville Chamberlain and PM Edward Dalier. uh all ran to Munich to meet with Hitler. on his own ground and said, "Here, what. do you want? Well, let's let's make a. deal.". >> Yeah. And and Hitler said, "Well, I've. told you what I want. I want the uh this. northwestern part of Czechoslovakia. We. call it the Sudatan land." And um they. said, "All right, well, you can have. that, but you got a promise." like, you. know, put put your hand on this Bible. Raise your right hand. >> And you got to promise you're not going.

to do anything else in Czechoslovakia. That's it. It stops there. And this is. where things are really, I feel like, echoing what's going on in Ukraine, like, hey, Putin, you know, eventually. you're going to get this this stuff that. you've you've conquered, but you're. going to stop there, right? Uh, and. that's what happened back then. Um, the. checks were an ally to France and. Britain at the time. They were not even. invited to the summit. again echoing. things that we see going on today. >> And at the time there were even some. German generals that thought like early.

on in in September of 38 when this. happened they were like hey listen if. the allies get behind Czechoslovakia. here we could be in trouble. So there. was some kind of bluff calling happening. basically but uh Britain kind of said no. let's let them do this and they steered. France to do the same and pressure. Czechoslovakia to submit and that's what. happened. >> Yeah. And Czechoslovakia is like, "Fine, they can have the Sudatan land. We. weren't even invited, but we'll go along. with it because our ally France is. telling us to." Keep in mind, an ally is.

not just like, "We're friends with you, we think you're pretty cool." An ally. means like you usually have some sort of. documents or treaties saying, "If. somebody tries to take part of your. country, we're going to come back you up. militarily." And when the chips came. down, France said no because Great. Britain was steering them. And one other. point about all this that's kind of. hidden in there, Great Britain was in a. position to steer France because you. could make an argument that it was still. the world's superpower. The the the. empire was on the Wayne, but still by.

the 30s 25% of the global population and. 20% of the Earth's land mass were under. British control. >> Yeah. >> So Britain was in a global position to. basically set the the the stage of how. to deal with Germany. and the UK decided. appeasement was the way to go. So. everybody else kind of followed along. >> Yeah. All right. So that's September of. 38. They they give them that, you know, they say you can have this portion of. Czechoslovakia as long as you promise. not to go in. 7 months later in March of. 1939, he went into the rest of.

Czechoslovakia just like he wrote in his. book basically. So you know, Hitler. reiged on that promise of course to to. leave Czechoslovakia, the rest of it. alone. And that was like uh the real. decisive moment because I think I feel. like that's when Hitler was probably. like, "Man, these guys are are cowards. and and they're letting me do whatever I. want." And very quickly thereafter, that. was March of 39. September of 39 is when. he invaded Poland and then it was on. >> Yeah. And even before he invaded Poland,

once he reneggged on the Czechoslovakian. deal, the the Munich agreement, he he. showed the world like you like I'll I'll. tell you whatever you want to hear. I'm. not going to back it up. So, he. immediately destroyed the the policy of. appeasement. >> Like appeasement policy had about as. much traction as like a yesterday's. non-winning lotto ticket that you'd find. in the gutter covered in gum and maybe a. little bit of blood from somewhere. >> Yeah. >> Like that was appeasement after um after.

the invasion of Czechoslovakia. I got. there eventually. >> Yeah. Uh but you know, Poland was. invaded and that that is really what. what uh kicked off like the beginnings. of World War II. >> Um Hitler tried to provoke war with. Poland by saying, "Hey, I want Danzig uh. not the band.". >> No, but still. >> the city of Danzig and Prussian. territory that was granted to you in. 1919 after World War I that we feel like. is ours. >> Mhm. >> And Britain and France, you know, they. made guarantees to Poland at the time, but in August, uh it was pretty shocking.

at the time. and the Nazis and the. Soviets uh signed a pact to partition. Poland out and basically said you come. in from the uh east, we'll come in from. the west and Poland is ours. And two. days later, Britain and France declared. war on Germany. >> Yep. And I think that is a great place. to stop. >> Yeah. Boy, what a robust setup. We'll be. right back. [Music].

[Music]. So, Chuck, where we left off, um Hitler. had just invaded Poland and the UK and. France declared war on Germany. Wow, that took a lot. Um,

>> what that showed everybody was that. appeasement was dead. The whole policy. had just shifted now to either. containment or out and out war now that. they had had declared war. Um, but there. this was a like there was a lot of. reasons for appeasement to have been. tried. We talked about some of them, but. a big one was the UK was really holding. on to that that world's greatest. superpower status as hard as they could. and another world war put that in like. real jeopardy. It put them in a.

precarious position. >> Yeah. I mean, they were, you know, everybody was trying to rearm. themselves, like I said earlier, since. World War I. Uh some a little quicker. than others. I think the United States, as we'll learn, wasn't making the. greatest rearmorment effort because. Congress was kind of chilling the the. the purse strings uh back when they. could do stuff like that. Uh but the um. the writing was on the wall for the UK. They were like, "We we we're not in any. position, even though we're supposedly. the world's greatest superpower, to.

fight Germany, Japan, and Italy all at. the same time. >> to prevent them from expanding their. territories." Like, that's just not a. possibility. >> Uh, and we might have to enter an. alliance with the US. Um, if worse comes. to worse, we might have to enter into an. alliance with the USSR. And that's just. going to make them I mean that's going. to lessen their their their stance and. their power worldwide if they have to do. stuff like that. >> Yeah. And with their their prestige or. power lessened like on the world stage,

that's the kind of thing that can spark. decolonization movements. So they were. worried about Jamaica, they were worried. about India, they were worried about. Nigeria all of a sudden being like the. UK has overextended itself. Now's the. time to declare independence from the. UK. And not just the prestige that was. lost, but more to the point, the. resources, the raw materials, all the. stuff that Great Britain extracted from. these colonies, that would be lost as. well. So, what Great Britain wanted was. no war, please, at least in part to.

preserve its empire. Um, other people. who were in the British um parliament. and government basically said, "We're. going to have to go to war. It's. inevitable, but we we're supporting. appeasement right now because we need to. stall for time to rearm ourselves like. you were saying, >> right? Which as we'll see also allowed. Germany to do the same, either through. rearmament by building things or by. >> uh storming Czechoslovakia and all of a. sudden they had all their stuff. >> Uh but appeasement was popular um for a.

long time throughout most of the 1930s. Um the the public didn't want to go to. war. Uh again they were shaking off a. World War I hangover still. Um no one. wanted to go to a war that was more. technologically advanced like pretty. rapidly since World War the end of World. War I right. >> for a second world war uh I think in 30. 1937 62% of British men said they. wouldn't volunteer and 78% of women said. they would not urge their husbands to go. fight. Mhm. >> Uh and even after the Munich agreement.

when Czechoslovakia was left hanging out. to dry, um 75% still approved of. appeasement in uh Great Britain. >> Yes. And so there was like a lot of. anti-war anxiety. Apparently people um. had died by suicide. There were mental. health problems. Uh all of the the. appeasement proppeasement sentiment was. also bolstered by the times and I. believe the BBC too which portrayed. Hitler as a moderate basically saying. like it could get way worse than this.

guy. Let's just deal with this guy. >> And then the reason why this matters is. because at the time Britain had recently. infranchised its women like more and. more people were voting. So the the. public opinion about stuff mattered more. and more to the people calling the shots. politically. And we'll also see that. also turned the politicians views. against appeasement as public opinion. changed on appeasement too. >> Yeah, for sure. And you know, there was. a string of PMS that were all for it. Uh. Neville Chamberlain was the third uh.

British PM. He he was in there from 37. to 40 during this time of appeasement. So, it wasn't just Chamberlain. I think. he's kind of um there's two things I. feel like from Great Britain that are. remembered is. and it you know it depends on how you. want to look at it but I think a lot of. people eventually frame Neville. Chamberlain as a coward and uh and. Winston Churchill as a hero because he. was one of the only ones that was like. this guy Hitler like I don't think you. guys see the writing on the wall here.

He's not going to stop and this. appeasement thing is no good. >> Yeah. And he also I mean he stood alone. basically in his party. uh the the. conservatives were like, "Yeah, we're. all pro appeasement," at least at the. time. So, he definitely stood on his. own. >> Um in France, France also had lost a lot. of people and a lot of money in World. War I and was not very eager to do a a. redo of it. But they were still. anti-Germany like like France was not a. friend of Germany. They they did not.

want to be friends with Germany. Their. alliances were against Germany. But. ultimately, and this is what's crazy to. me, that it was racked by faright and. far-left internal political conflict. Yeah. At the time. >> Yeah. Yeah. They were kind of in a inter. stalemate almost, >> right? And so they were, whether they. wanted to be or not, they were fairly. drawn into um domestic affairs rather. than foreign affairs. And it wasn't. until Edward Deladier um who became.

prime minister that they really started. to branch back out into foreign affairs. But even then they were pretty pro-. appeasement. So they didn't they didn't. really have much of a stomach for going. into a second world war understandably. But they didn't feel like they were in a. a place to do anything. So essentially. they they just went on the defense. They. did not they weren't going to go into a. policy of containment or anything like. that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, as far as the US goes, at the time we had uh FDR in there, Roosevelt was in there, and he endorsed.

appeasement like officially. Uh, he. endorsed the Munich agreement. Um, they. were into isolationism at the time and. trying to stay neutral. And we were also. in no position militarily cuz like I. mentioned we were kind of uh you know we. were also depleted by World War I and. moving along a little slower than even. other eventual allied countries because. uh Congress was kind of pulling those. purse strings a little tight as far as. building the military back up. >> Yeah. And I think that you can make a. case that any country that was involved. in World War I really lost its appetite.

for war after that. Like. >> Yeah. >> To to an amazing degree. >> Understandably. >> For sure. And then there was another. group of pro-appasers um who was the. Britain's aristocracy. And the reason. why is because they wanted things to. just basically let's just go back to. where we colonize other places and. really it's the aristocracy running. things and we're all related and I'm. your cousin, you're my cousin and we're. all three somehow married but we all run. everything. We're all just crazy rich. Let's keep doing that. and they saw.

Hitler as somebody who could help keep. that kind of status quo or get back to. that kind of status quo. >> The group that was opposed to Hitler. though, they uh were the Soviets and. they were communists and the aristocrats. who enjoy wealth inequality do not. typically um like communism or. communists. They wanted to steer Britain. away from any kind of alliances with the. USSR that could support communists or. socialists in Britain and their causes. and more toward Hitler because Hitler's.

policies kind of jobbed with the. aristocracy's views a little more. >> Yeah. And I mean they they were sort of. actively courting one another uh because. they saw Hitler as somebody who could, you know, like you were saying, kind of. let them keep their their lifestyle in. check, right? and and Hitler and Germany. did nothing to make them think. otherwise. You know, they they were. playing on those spears of communism for. sure. They're like, you know, you got a. lot of dough. >> You know what happens when communism. happens? And that, you know, sent a. chill through the the British. aristocratic scene.

>> Yeah. They were known to say, "Croy, uh, break time or shall we go on with. Churchill? >> Give me a break, Chuck. Break me off a. piece of that ad break bar.". >> Oh boy. We'll be right back. [Music]. [Music].

All right. So, that might have been the. best ad segue ever. >> with the All right. So, >> I just I didn't see a a illusion toward. to KitKat in this episode. >> Thanks. >> All right. So, we mentioned Church Hill. sort of briefly before. Churchill was, like we said, one of the sort of few. outspoken um. dudes that was like, "No, we can't do.

this." He visited Germany in 1932 and he. was like, "These Nazis mean business. I. don't think you guys understand what's. happening here.". >> And he said, "If we concede to Hitler, uh, things are going to get much worse. We have to re arm ourselves, you know, quicker and get those factories to. work." Um, but, you know, that that's. the kind of thing that can wreck an. economy. So, that's if people are. wondering like, well, why didn't they. all just rearm as fast as they could? It's because it costs a ton of money and. um, people. So, it's not great for the. economy to have to build that war. machine back up. So, but he was pounding.

the drum to do so. >> Yeah. And his whole take on Hitler, including the Munich agreement, which he. he called a total and unmititigated. defeat. This is where the allies went to. Hitler and said, "We'll let you have. part of Czechoslovakia. Just don't. invade the rest of Czechoslovakia.". He like when when Neville Chamberlain. came back to the UK, he was like. basically waving the agreement and. saying he had negotiated a peace for our. time that essentially like aggression. from Germany was done. We were all going. to live in peace again. And it lasted a.

year before we were at war with Germany. So it made Chamberlain look look pretty. bad. It made Churchill look like very. foresightful and exactly the kind of guy. that you would want to fight Hitler. So. essentially after they got rid of. Chamberlain, the UK went to um Churchill. and said, "You don't like Hitler. We. understand that. We don't like Hitler. anymore now." And so you're up. >> Yeah. And you know, a lot of people said. that was his aim was to increase his. political profile. And you know, who. knows if that was his aim, but it.

worked. Uh he took over his PM in 1940. after Chamberlain, like you said. And he. wanted um he he he basically later on. was like, hey, if we would have uh had a. policy of deterrence instead of. appeasement, we might have prevented. this war to begin with. um you know. Britain and France should have uh. strengthened our relationship. >> and that was our best hope was maybe to. form what he called a grand alliance. with the Soviet Union even even and. Eastern European countries. >> right. >> but the Soviet you know there was a lot. of distrust of the Soviet Union um.

especially you know like we mentioned. the aristocracy who wanted to hang on to. their their their pounds and uh of. course what Stalin was doing you know. they didn't trust that either so he was. not going to get support from the Brit. British or the French uh to to sort of. be tougher. >> No, but as we'll see later, it it was. not a bad plan. Could have changed. things dramatically. >> Yeah. >> Um one of the other things that made. Churchill such a um a strident voice. about opposing Germany is that he had.

intelligence, I guess, as a minister of. parliament, he had men on the inside. >> Yeah. Um and he had an intelligence. report from somebody in Germany saying. that Germany had a mean spirit of. revenge, brutality amounting in many. cases to be bestiality in complete. ruthlessness. >> And this is at a time when um. Chamberlain and Delier are basically. saying like Hitler's our friend. We just. need to keep keep negotiating with them. He's getting reports about how they're.

just brutal and ruthless and those. panned out to be true. >> Yeah. uh you we mentioned FDR and the US. earlier that officially they supported. appeasement um because they would not. you know sign any kind of formal. agreement with the UK or France. But on. the inside uh the administration was. definitely trying to kind of say hey UK. you got to you got to change your stance. here. You got to like Hitler means. business and only your military can can. deter this guy at this point. But on the. outside they were you know officially.

like hey we're not involved. this. appeasement sounds pretty good to us. Uh. and like we said, you know, the the. people of Britain were largely for it. And most of the people were didn't want. to go back to war until the crystal. knocked on November 1938. That's when. Germany uh you know for the first time. attacked its own citizens and destroyed. Jewish businesses and synagogues. Uh it. killed about a hundred Jews and arrested. about a hundred thousand. And that's. when the the the public at large kind of.

all around the world was like, "Oh, okay. That's what this guy's about. This. cannot stand.". >> Right. And remember now with all with. the UK having all these new voters, their opinion mattered. So that helped. change things, too. >> Yeah. I wish I knew how to say uh too. late in German. >> You don't You didn't learn that in high. school. >> No. I was trying to think if I could. think. >> Can you sound it out letter by letter? >> No. >> Oh, wait. You'd have to know the word to. do that. >> No, I remember what Kudson the mouse did.

in uh at uh Hans Peter's house cuz I. remember reading that chapter over and. over and over. >> What What did he do? >> I really don't remember. But the the my. friend Rad and uh the the cgrapher in. Montana, he'll be the only person in the. world that gets that joke because. >> it was just a lot of stuff about canutes. and the mouse and and his uh owner Hans. per, you know, that German textbook. stuff. >> Okay. Was that like the the German high. school classes equivalent of the little.

prince in the French class? >> Probably. >> Gotcha. I understand exactly what you. mean. >> Yeah, it's fun on a big show like this. to make a joke for one human. So, I hope. that makes sense. >> No, why not? >> Um, so there's one other group, Chuck, that we didn't talk about what they. thought of appeasement, and that was the. Nazis themselves and Hitler. And it's. >> they loved it. >> Yeah, probably not a big surprise. They. saw it as a clear sign of weakness by. the world's leading powers um that they. that hit Hitler and Germany could do.

whatever it's it wanted and France and. and um the UK were just going to bow. their knees and their heads in front of. Hitler and the the people of the of. Germany itself also picked up on this. too. Like Hitler had remember he had. taken power. It wasn't like you know he. wasn't fully supported yet. There was. like a courtship period that was still. things were up in the air. But when he. came back and said, "I got back the. Rhineland. I got back Sudatan land. I um. got us Austria.

What's next?" You know, and I did it all. without a single shot fired. >> Like these guys just gave it back to us. because that's what they think of. Germany with me leading it. The German. people just went nuts. And Hitler was. >> was the guy. He was their fur. That was. the day Hitler became their furer. Yeah, >> that man, you just walked off of a. History Channel show. You dropped you. dropped the mic in the Sound Studio and. left. One thing we can say is that. Appeasement did achieve the aim of.

rearmorament. Um, that was kind of one. of the goals, like we said a few times, is that, you know, everyone was trying. to put this off so they could build back. up their their war stock or whatever. >> And that happened. Uh Britain spent less. on arms than Germany did from 1935 to. 1939, but uh they had the highest. proportion of their GDP devoted to. building up their armaments uh in 1940. And um in 1930s they re rebuilt the Navy. to the you know once again the world's. strongest navy. Shout out to British Sea. Power, one of my favorite bands.

>> And early on you know they had outpaced. Germany. Um, and you know, we're going. to talk about the alternate histories. here shortly, like what if they had done. something. They're in a pretty good. position. They between Britain and Fran, uh, France, their coalition had a 5 to1. armorament superiority over Germany. early on. >> And France uh, the fall of France in. 1940, apparently, and I don't know. enough about this stuff, but from what. I've read, it wasn't because they were. unprepared and didn't have enough bombs.

and things. Apparently, it was about. poor leadership at that point. >> Yeah. I I couldn't find enough by that. myself to speak confidently on it. All I. know is that France did not put up much. of a fight from what I remember from the. history books. >> Yeah. But let's talk about that, Chuck. Let's talk about those alternate. histories, especially with the view of. armament because Neville Chamberlain. when he he basically couldn't get a. coalition government together anymore. after Hitler reneged on the Munich. agreement and he was replaced like we. saw with by Winston Churchill in 1940.

Um that same year he died of cancer. after Chamberlain was removed. Um but he. spent that time basically saying like I. bought us time appeasement bought us. time to rearm. And he's right like you. showed like Britain did have a chance to. rearm but there is a really critical. window that we know about now where that. policy of appeasing in order to rearm. didn't make sense. And that was about. 1938 to 1939.

And the reason was is because France and. the UK were rearming at a rate close to. Germany and were actually even. overtaking it a little bit. And they. could have put up a fight against. Germany and probably won especially. together combining their stuff in 1938. By 1939, things had changed. Germany had. gone even further overdrive into war. production. But more to the point, they. had taken over Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia had all sorts of. munitions factories. Czechoslovakia had.

all sorts of people you could conscript. into free labor, aka slave labor. Um. there was all sorts of stuff that. happened when they took over. Czechoslovakia. And it tipped the. balance way up in favor of Germany's. military after that. So that period 1938. to 1939 appeasement did the exact. opposite and it made the war way worse. than it would have been had the UK and. France said this is as good as it's. going to get. We got to go now. >> Well, yeah. And you know it also um.

possibly made the war worse. And a lot. of people say it definitely made the war. worse than it would have been. uh. because in 1940 Britain's holding out. against Germany and they're both seeking. resources all around the world. >> uh that you needed to get uh to to win a. world war and uh that just expanded the. war basically made it into a global. thing a much larger thing than it might. have been otherwise. >> Um deterrence might have avoided all of. that if they would have formed a grand. alliance and bonded their powers early.

on. Um the you know because I mentioned. earlier there were even generals within. Germany kind of it's kind of a a. bluffing game like hey if these guys get. together like we're in a not the best. position right now and so while they. were buying time it helped Germany. increase their war chest and uh yeah. that's the rest is history. >> right but speaking of alternate. histories there were other options that. um the UK had on the table and now. speaking about them like in retrospect.

it's it's mindboggling to even think. But the first one's a little more. understandable or palatable. Had the UK. simply just not declared war after. Germany invaded Poland. That was an. option to them on the table. They didn't. have to do it. France had already set. the precedent of not backing up. Czechoslovakia when it was taken over by. Germany. >> The UK could have just not done that, too. And one thing that could have. backed this up that could have supported. actually that that position in the UK. just sit back and let it play out on its.

own. >> is that it was inevitable essentially. for the USSR and Germany to clash. because of that Lebanon policy that. policy of the east actually belongs to. Germany and we're going to go take it. Right. >> Yeah. And uh you know that played out by. um eventually with Operation Barbar Roa. uh with the invasion of the Soviet Union. in June 1941. >> Uh some people say like and you know of. course this sounds completely ridiculous.

to think of now with hindsight, but some. people are like, you know, the UK could. have allied with Germany early on. Uh. they I mean I I think one of the reasons. they didn't is not because they knew. this Hitler guy was a madman. Again, that came later. It was because of the. colonies that you were talking about. that they had all over the world. >> Uh Germany also had colonies all over. the world and they had a conflict. Um I. think Britain wasn't going to um say. here uh why don't you why don't you take. our African colonies and Germany.

definitely didn't like the way Britain. looked at uh at race, right? >> Uh they had a pretty different idea on. that. And so uh if they had any kind of. alliance, they would have had uh. surrendered their their liberal. imperialism and they really weakened. their status as an international. superpower. >> Yeah. They would have had to fall in. line with basically the way Germany. viewed the world. And yeah, just. wrapping your mind around that is is not. easy to do like the UK doing that. >> And um Kyle, who's our man on the inside.

in the UK, >> right? Yeah. He's our MI6 agent. >> Exactly. He pointed something out that I. thought was pretty interesting, too, that he basically said the fact that. crystal knocked and the news of what the. that what Germany had done to its own. Jewish citizens. Yeah. How that turned. British public opinion just basically. showed like even if Britain did try to. ally with Germany, it was never going to. work out. >> That's probably the least likely of all. of it. And then also, Chuck, you can't. help us being Americans to wonder could. America have sat out World War II?

>> Yeah. Um, you know, we declared war. after Pearl Harbor on Imperial Japan. Uh, that followed or following that, Germany declared war on us in December. 1941. And, you know, maybe we could have. evaded getting involved in the European. theater. Uh, we definitely got mired in. the Pacific theater with Japan. Mhm. >> Um we weren't really, it's not like the. US wasn't on the Nazis radar, but we. weren't really a big part of their. foreign policy in the 1930s yet,

>> right? >> Um cuz again, isolationism was kind of. our bag at the time. Our army wasn't. very big. We had in 1940, we had five. divisions compared to Germany's 141. >> Mhm. >> And uh Congress definitely was not going. to like get behind Roosevelt um entering. the the European theater at the time. So. there were a lot of reasons why um it. looked like the US maybe could have. avoided that mess. >> Yeah. But historians say uh uh um. probably we were going to get drawn in.

one way or another because like you. said, Germany did declare war on the US. essentially to to show Japan like, hey, we're in this together. You guys just. handle the US. So that was going to. happen whether we tried to stay out of. it or not. And then um he also knew that. we were a threat and and that we would. eventually be online armament wise to. really make a significant contribution. His he predicted by 1942. I think we. started before then. And then even more. than that um Roosevelt was already.

giving permission for US battleships to. shoot and and destroy yubot that were. operating in the Atlantic because they. had started targeting American shipping. and Hitler was not very happy about. that. Yeah. >> So, the US was probably not going to be. able to stay out of World War II. >> Yeah, for sure. >> The alternate history, I guess, that. gets me, Chuck, is um was the earliest. when Germany remilitarized the Rhineland. in flagrant violation of the Treaty of. Versailles. >> Had the UK and the and France.

intervened, >> this is 1936. I mean, imagine if they. had just. >> done something then and contained Hitler. then. And remember there was this. courtship period or whatever where you. know Germany hadn't really wasn't really. sure about Hitler at the time. Had he. been undermined that thoroughly on the. international stage, who knows what have. would have happened to him as as the. leader of Germany, right? And they could. have done something because at the time. France had a 100,000 troops near the. border with Rinland.

>> Germany only moved 35,000 troops into. the area. Yeah, >> France could have easily repelled that. and and been like, "It's your move, Germany. What are you going to do?" And. Germany might not have done anything. And even if Hitler had done something, it probably be would have been against. the the advice of his military advisers. So now he would have personally been. taking Germany to war. That's a lot to. stake your reputation on. And that one. thing in 1936 could have completely.

avoided the death of tens of millions of. people and they didn't do it because of. internal left right politics. >> Wow. >> Oh man, that was that was good stuff. I. like this my favorite kind of stuff you. should know when 45 minutes later like I. know probably 100% more than I knew. before about World War II. >> Very nice, Chuck. I yeah, I I didn't. know almost any of this either. I love. that stuff, too. And I know we just. talked about the US and the UK and.

France's alternate history, but if you. want to come up with an alternate. history of for World War II in your. country, let us know. Hit the history. textbooks and come back with what you. got and we'd love to get that kind of. thing. In the meantime, while we're. waiting for your listener mail, we'll. listen to Chuck with a new listener. mail. >> Yeah. Somebody just sends us uh Man in. the High Castle, >> right? No plagiarism, please. >> Which I never saw or read. >> I didn't either, but it's supposed to be. pretty good.

>> Yeah, maybe I'll check that out at some. point. Sounds like it'd be right up my. alley. >> Too depressing for me. That kind of. stuff. That and like things that. normalize billionaires, right? >> Can't take it anymore. >> Like D Snider. Uh, all right. What is. this? Uh, this is from Chris. Oh, yeah. This is just a nice thing. Hey guys, wanted to write in for a while now. Um, first of all, I always appreciate the. wide variety of topics you cover, uh, especially the ones born of your own. natural curiosities. As a former middle. school science teacher, I saw my primary.

role as instilling curiosity in my. students and modeling for them how to. chase those curiosities. And your. approach really resonates with me. Uh, but the one thing I didn't pay enough. attention to back when I was in the. classroom was the art of communication. that you guys display in every episode. Uh, if I still had a classroom full of. students, I would use your show not only. for the content, but also for lessons in. respectful communication. Uh, so much. discourse we hear today is loud and. angry and doesn't give people space to. express themselves without being. interrupted, mocked, or refuted. Uh, somehow you guys seamlessly pass the.

baton of communication to one another. without speaking over one another, contradicting each other's incomplete. thoughts, uh, or negotiating the. communication flow through general. awkwardness. Uh even when one of you. have a follow-up comment that may. provide a differing or correcting. perspective, you always give space for. the other to finish their thought before. weighing in. And the follow-up comments. are thoughtfully delivered and received. Uh thanks so much for all you do. I. appreciate your authentic, respectful. delivery of interesting content. You. guys keep my brain awake and smiling.

And that is from uh Chris Christine Su. in Bloomington, Illinois. And Chris, one. of the reasons is because we almost. always agree with each other on this. stuff. >> I disagree. >> So it makes it kind kind of easy. >> Yeah. No, for sure. And that's something. that still kind of surprises me to this. day where like just our common view. >> is so in step with one another. >> where I mean like there's there's so. many things that are different about us. Like our personalities are pretty.

different. >> Wildly different. >> Yeah, I would say wildly. Sure. I'll go. with that. >> Okay. >> But the but when you come down to like. what do you think about this? What do. you think about this? What do you think. about that? It's generally in the same. not even ballpark in the same hot dog. stand of the same ballpark. >> Yeah. I don't think the show would have. worked for so long if you and I just. were sort of at odds over every little. thing. And I think that stuff that. Christine is talking about too is so. much of media today is set up to do that. because that gets ratings I guess. So. they'll pit. >> people that they know have differing.

viewpoints and put them down in chairs. next to each other and that's just like. blah. >> Yeah. But it's like the Simpsons taught. us if you just don't look it'll. eventually go away. So you don't like. that kind of media just don't watch it. Yeah. Agreed. Uh well thank you Chris. That was really really nice. We love. hearing that kind of stuff. That's just. a really kind email and we thank you for. it. If you want to be like Chris and. send us a kind email we are always open. to receiving one of those. You can send. it off to stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com. [Music].

>> Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].