Who was Robert Maxwell?l | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, [music] and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's. here, too. And this is Stuff You Should. Know. Um, the Great Man version of history. edition. >> Yeah, great man. except he's this is a. interesting episode because Robert.

Maxwell was kind of a horrible person. >> in a lot of ways. He achieved a lot of. things. He also did a lot of terrible. things. Uh so it was interesting. I. didn't know much about this guy at all. And I can't remember if I heard about. him because he's the father of uh Galain. Maxwell, but uh. >> which makes him even worse. >> Well, yeah. I mean, yeah. I'm not sure. where this came from, though, cuz this. one was like a year and a half ago that. uh we requisitioned the article and it.

had just been gathering dust. And so, we. dusted it off and now we're going to. talk about this uh this jerk. >> Yeah. Great man. History by the way is. it's a it's a way of interpreting. history through the leaders political. and social military leaders like the the. people who make history happen rather. than society or individual people. The. problem is is that those great men. usually are not great people like.

personally speaking and he this is a. really good example. He was revered. because he was super rich, but he was. also, I have to say, a very a very. interesting person. I think he was a big. liar in a lot of ways, but stuff that he. claimed um that could be proven was. still pretty nuts. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean, he was uh just. the broadest overview, he was a a. tycoon. He was a bully. Uh he escaped uh. Nazi Germany's wrath. He was a decorated.

British soldier. He was a member of. parliament. Uh he was also a crook who. stole from the pensions of companies he. started and. >> uh a lot of like terrible business. dealings. It sounds like was a pretty. awful husband and father at the same. time. >> Well, there's the episode. [laughter]. >> Well, let's talk about him. He was born. um Yan Ludvik Hoke uh in 1923 in uh. Salat Vigno which is was Czechoslovaki.

at the time. It's now Ukraine. Uh but he. was from a you know he was very poor. He. was raised very poor from a big family. >> Uh his father seems like was a pretty. awful guy too. >> Um so you know behind every awful person. is usually um an awful parent or two. You know. >> it's intergenerational. >> Yeah. That's the way it generally works. >> Yeah. So, um and that's why I never had. kids. >> Oh, no. >> Um so, yeah, he said at one point, I was. never young. I never had that privilege.

And it was basically because his family. was so povertystricken and his father. was such a a jerk that he um he wasn't. he didn't have much of a childhood. But. he he did remember that he loved his. mother like his whole life from. childhood on. And he would use her as an. example of what his children needed to. aspire to. You know, this woman who. could handle raising all these kids in. these terrible conditions and still, you. know, be beloved. >> Sure. I mean, suffered from hunger as a.

child and had some disordered eating as. an adult and that uh sort of gorging. himself on food and his wife, his later. wife Betty, would say that, you know, she thinks that all came back from the. hunger that he had as a child. >> Yeah. Uh he was uh Jewish. He was from a. Jewish family and like I mentioned. earlier, he managed to escape um the I. think kind of the only member of his. family to escape the Nazis in March of. 1939 when they invaded Czechoslovakia. >> uh by cutting off his side and like.

getting the heck out of there. and for a. lot of his adult life like um I don't. know if he denied it but [clears throat]. never came forward as being Jewish like. changing his name and everything. >> Yeah. He he uh was low-key Jewish for a. lot of his life until later on when he. was talked into into I guess coming out. I don't know what you would call it in. that sense. >> Yeah. But you said that he escaped the. Nazi takeover of Czechoslovakia and he.

definitely did, but very quickly turned. right around and um went back to join. the Hungarian underground in Budapest. and um he was essentially trying to move. exile or like people escaping like him. further on to safety because Hungary. still wasn't, you know, safety. It was. better than being in Czechoslovakia, but. you still needed to keep moving. And he. was going to help people. And almost. immediately he was captured. >> and and held and tortured as a member of.

the Czech resistance, which is not what. you wanted the Nazis to consider you. >> No. Uh, apparently there was um going to. be no trial at all. And then the French. embassy stepped in. >> and because he had a planned execution. and. >> uh arranged what seems to be like a sham. of a trial. >> Sure. uh and he ended up escaping. uh escaping like on the way to prison. So, you know, again, a lot of this stuff. is from his authorized biography and. stories he told.

>> Um some of which was no doubt like um. embellished probably. >> Mhm. >> Uh so he seems like one of those guys. that would like kind of pump up a story. about himself. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, agreed. He's he's definitely. that type for sure. >> Yeah. Um but he uh he he escaped like. you said literally with his life. He. escaped with his life because he would. almost certainly have been executed. Um. and he joined the foreign legion in. France and they sent him to England.

because France was overtaken by the. Nazis as well. And in England he. basically found a new home. Uh he signed. up for the British army. He was there. when Normandy was stormed. Um, and he. also uh displayed like real actual. valor, both valor and ruthlessness. Kyle. helped us with this, and Kyle really. loved to focus on ruthlessness, >> which in these cases is a um a synonym. for war crimes, cut and dried war.

crimes. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh he he really tried to. remake himself as a British guy uh like. pretty successfully. Like I said, he. changed his name a couple of times, eventually landing on Ian Robert Maxwell. and like taught himself English, apparently would listen to Churchill. speeches, so he would get that sort of. that grand English accent that Churchill. had. >> Sure. >> Uh but yeah, he he, you know, flat out. admitted to um he had a real knack for. like going undercover and doing like.

special ops and stuff, but also like you. said, disobeying orders and being pretty. ruthless. It's like he like admitted to. his wife in a letter that he like. executed more than one like unarmed. German person including a mayor in. Germany. >> Yeah. Civilian even. Yeah. Um Yeah. And. again that's a war crime and he would. later be investigated for it. Um but. they were not able to find anyone who. could corroborate that. Any witness. said, "Yes, I saw him shoot that mayor.".

Or, "Yes, I saw him shoot those unarmed. troops who surrendered." Um, so they had. to close the case. So is that a case of. him just pumping up his own legend. again? >> Right. >> It's, you know, but again, the stuff. that can be verified is kind of amazing. Like he uh did work for the British. intelligence after the war. He ended up. being recruited by MI6. It's six, right? Yeah. MI6. um he could. speak uh English, German, French,

Yiddish, Hungarian, Czech, and Romanian. by the end of the war. So, he was. extremely valuable post-war while Europe. was being divvied up and being rebuilt. and people were uh having to interact. with all these other countries. And he'd. also changed his identity four times. before then, too. >> Yeah. But like you said, he he legit. achieved in the armed forces. He worked. his way up eventually to become a second. lieutenant in the Queen's Royal. Regiment. >> Mhm. >> And uh had a very apparently daring.

rescue for a a trapped Allied platoon in. the Netherlands and received a military. cross. um like a distinguished service military. cross. So, uh, again, it's sort of a. conundrum with this guy cuz he did learn. all those languages and he was a very. valuable person for MI6 and did some. like spy work, but there was also rumors. over the years that he was and we'll get. into this a little bit more, but like he. sp he spied for the Soviet Union or that. he spied for Israel's. And I don't think.

that anyone knows the real truth behind. that stuff. >> No, but it is the more you know about. him, the easier it is to to believe that. that's quite possible, you know. for. sure. >> So he made it through the war quite. successfully. He was stationed in um. Berlin I think at the end of it. He was. interviewing German prisoners of war to. get as much intelligence out of them as. possible. >> Yeah. >> Um and so while there he was also in the. chaos of all of this of Europe being.

devastated and just beginning to. rebuild, there was a lot of money to be. made. It's like in that Spikeley movie, uh, The Inside Man. >> Yeah. Where they say. >> I've seen that. Oh my goodness. >> And that's like one of the better later. Spikeleys. I know. >> Yeah. It's one of the better like just. suspense movies, too. It's really well. done. Great movie. Please see it. But. anyway, in one part Christopher Plamer. says, "When there's blood on the street, buy real estate." And that was. essentially what what um.

>> Europe was like at this time. I mean, Robert Maxwell was exactly the kind of. person to buy real estate when there was. blood on the street. So, he was making. all sorts of money on the side just. taking advantage of the desperation of. the people who he was interacting with. Um, and in addition, like other business. opportunities came up and improbably, if. you ask me, he ended up in the. scientific publishing world. Yeah. And. became essentially like a a scientific. publishing magnate in the coming. decades. >> Yeah. So while he was in Berlin uh he.

was working with Dar Telegraph and that. paper was owned by Springer Verlog uh. two two words with a dash in the middle. >> Mh. >> I think Verlog was a big academic. publisher uh which is kind of like you. mentioned where we were headed with. this. uh he met the publisher uh. Ferdinand. >> and he learned that there were like you. know more than 60,000 books and journals. like stockpiled in a warehouse. >> and they had been you know like away.

from public view since 1939 like pre-war. >> and so his wheels started turning on how. he could make some money and then along. with his uh eventual business partner. this guy named Paul Rosebod. uh started a company uh I guess bought. his way into a company called. Butterworth Springer which was rebranded. Pergamon Press and they got a deal with. Springer Verlog to get these books like. these scientific textbooks out into the. world and he got MI6 to finance this.

deal. >> Yeah. Yeah. They um they basically paid. for 300 tons Yeah. 300 tons of books and. journals to be shipped to London so that. they could be translated and then. published for money like you said and. they also he said I want to buy some. shares in the company too. So they gave. him £25,000. and I did some back of the envelope work. >> you're not going to call it maths are. you? No, not not I wouldn't even dare.

[laughter] But um that is about $885,000. US today. >> Yeah. And if you're wondering like, well, how did he get MI6? Like why would. they invest secretly invest in something. like this? >> I think he Well, it you know, everything. we're about to say the guy take at face. value. But one thing he was really good. at was like. >> he could be very charming. He was kind. of a a jackal and hide from what I saw. Um, so as awful as he could be, he could. also be super charming and like work his.

way into a room or work his way into a. deal, right? >> And I think that's what he did with MI6. when he basically was like, "Hey, >> having all these German scientific. research books. >> uh is is like an asset to us, an. intelligence asset, maybe a propaganda. tool, and MI6 bought it.". >> Yeah. So, uh, we'll we'll put his role. in academic publishing to the side, but. just suffice to say that the the current. state of affairs where journals. determine what science is conducted and.

the scientific community as a whole has. kind of shied away or moved away from. doing its job the way it should be and. instead conducting experiments and. studies that will get published that are. eyepopping. Right. >> That actually came from Robert Maxwell. and and the way that he changed the. industry. >> Oh, interesting. >> And there's a really good long form. Guardian article from 2017 called, "Is. the staggeringly profitable business of. scientific publishing bad for science?". And you can guess that the answer is.

yes. But it it talks a lot about this. and other stuff, too. But it's a it's a. good article. I'd say go read that if. you're interested. >> All right. I'll check it out. Uh should. we take a break? >> Yeah. >> All right. I'll go read the article. right now. We'll be back in what, 20. minutes or so? >> Sure. >> All right. Be right back. [music]. [music].

So, one of the things about Maxwell was. he when he got into scientific. publishing, he really went like full. boore into it. And his his whole jam. with um business was like buy one thing. and then use it to buy buy another. thing, start another thing. Like. basically get into one industry and just. mushroom everywhere you can because the. more stuff you have, the more money you.

can soak up in that industry or that. sector, right? So he bought another. publisher, Simkin Marshall, and this is. a really good demonstration of his. business techniques. He he bought it. with a loan from a business partner. The. business partner came back and was like, "Hey, how's how's Simkin Marshall. doing?" And uh Maxwell was like, "I'm. not I'm not at liberty to say." And the. guy found out that the the company was. severely in debt. And he had borrowed,

Maxwell had borrowed a ton of money. against the company's credit. Yeah. >> And then sold off all the assets and. kept the money for himself. And this. publishing house, which had been around. for more than a century, went under. thanks to Robert Maxwell raiding it. And. it was essentially a proto private. equity like move that he did. That's. what private equity does. Chuck, >> have you been to Dunkin Donuts lately? >> Uh, no. Oh, I don't I don't go there. >> Yeah, I don't normally either, but I.

went and got a coffee and I walked in. and I was like, "God, this place is just. it's like the like a death march in. here. This is awful." Like every like. the employees hated their life. Like. stuff was broken. Like a serve yourself. machine was there next to the the cash. register. It was just terrible. And I. was like, I'll bet private equity owns. this now. And sure enough, >> two years ago, Private Equity bought it. >> Yep. They do it like anytime you are in. like you work with a business or you.

like a store or something like that and. it suddenly goes downhill, go online and. search that business in private equity. and I guarantee you private equity got. involved and it's just running it into. the ground because they don't care. >> So he was doing something like this in. the 1950s. >> Yep. >> Uh which is crazy. And um it it seemed. like you know a lot of time he was. definitely not afraid to burn bridges. because apparently he didn't even repay. that loan to the guy who loaned him the. money for Simkin Marshall. >> right. >> uh the there there was a rag called the.

private eye or called private eye that. called him the bouncing check uh as in. checklovakian. So he definitely had a. reputation of you know just doing what. he could by hooker crook to get. something done and then like walking. away and leaving people penniless behind. him. uh that Springier Verlog who got. him that first deal. They ended up. severing contact with him in 1958. Uh. Pergamon Press uh he lost control of uh. would eventually take it back. >> Um but during a 71 board of trade.

inquiry, they said he was they declared. he was unfit to run a public company. So. like his his reputation was well known. even back then. >> Yeah. I mean that's a big deal when the. government says you you can't be a CEO. Sorry. They like the board says you can, we're saying you cannot because you are. that untrustworthy. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh and later in life, well, not that much later, uh he would. find a an enemy, a grave enemy in the. 1960s with a guy, an Australian named.

Rupert Murdoch. So, we talked about. Murdoch uh in our episode on the um on. news on the news cycle. >> 24-hour cable news. >> Yeah, 24-hour cable news. So, everyone. knows who Rupert Murdoch is of Fox News. He and Maxwell were grave enemies. And. it seems like Maxwell was pretty much. obsessed with trying to outdo him. Like. anytime he would go to buy a newspaper, Murdoch seemed to be right there in. front of him buying it. And uh he ended. up buying the left-wing Maxwell did the.

left-wing Daily Mirror just to counter. Murdoch's uh right-wing buys. Like by. all accounts, Maxwell was never even. though he would eventually uh be in. parliament as the Labor Party. >> Like he said that he was conservative, but he wasn't part of the conservative. establishment. So he would just be like, "All right, I'm part of the Labor Party, or I'll buy this left-wing newspaper.". >> Yeah. I mean, it just made sense. financially. So, you know, he could be. whatever whatever he needed to be, I.

guess, in that sense. It kind of. demonstrates that to me. Um, I was. reading. about Rupert Murdoch and him uh their. rivalry and apparently it was one of. those rivalries like um where it meant. everything to Robert Maxwell and Rupert. Murdoch was like who? Oh yeah, I. remember him. Whatever. Like and that. just drove Robert Maxwell crazier and. crazier and just made him want to you. know compete with Rupert Murdoch. Like. Rupert Murdoch wasn't really competing.

um and he would just buy paper after. paper like they would be directly. competing trying to buy a newspaper but. Murdoch most of the time won. And um he. said later on um that his impression of. Robert Maxwell is that he was a total. buffoon really like he was just this. boastful guy who wanted to win but would. get in his own way. Yeah. >> In the process of winning. That was. >> kind of what his personality was like.

And by kind of I mean 100%. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Uh Murdoch, they they talked about. the Max Factor uh a play on the uh what. was that like a makeup or something? >> Uh yeah, I think there's like a makeup. line. Yeah, max factor. >> But they would use that as uh not a. compliment. Like the max factor wasn't. like, hey, this guy's great. He can go. in and close deals. It was more like he. loses out on deals because of the max. factor because no one wants to deal with. this guy. >> Exactly. Yeah. I mean, like, people got. in bed with him because they had no.

choice. He had just bought their. company. He was now their boss. People. didn't get in bed or business, I guess I. should probably say, [laughter] with him. because they liked him or they wanted. to. Um, they they were usually they just. found themselves in the unfortunate. situation of having to work closely with. him. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, but he bought the. Daily Mirror uh in ' 84. He started um. the London Daily News in ' 87. uh he started another paper that was. sort of what I understand is like a.

European USA Today called European in. 1990. >> Mhm. >> So he's you know he's launching all. these newspapers and then eventually he. says all right I need to look toward the. states uh and ends up buying uh McMillan. US in 1988 for $2.6 billion. >> So much money in 1988. >> Oh totally. in something called the. official aviation guidance uh for $750. million. >> which again that's a crazy amount of. money in 1988. So he was this spending.

spree especially in the US where he's. trying to to take on Murdoch again. I. think Murdoch had already bought the New. York Post by this time. It was a lot. like um like the the USSR being um. driven to extinction by spending, the US. spending, having to keep up with. spending. >> Yeah. >> Rupert Murdoch would go do something and. now he was in the United States. So now. Robert Maxwell had to do it and Robert. Maxwell had to outdo him. So he started. spending money he didn't have and was.

expanding his empire and his empire. started to lose its foundation. um it it. started to crumble financially because. of him um trying to keep up essentially. >> Yeah, that's a that's a great analogy. actually. Um in February 91, he bought. the New York Daily News and that's one. where Murdoch kind of rubbed it in his. face because as soon as Maxwell bought. it, he was like, "All right, the. publisher needs to call Rupert Murdoch. and tell him that Robert Maxwell just. bought the New York Daily News." And. apparently Murdoch like laughed at this.

and said, "Yeah, thank Bob for the. courtesy of that." like basically like I. didn't want that that a like failing. paper anyway. >> Sure. There's one other thing that he. very famously lost out on and we must. have talked about him in our episode on. Tetris. The wild history of Tetris from. >> Oh yeah. >> 2024 I think is how weird people put it. um he owned um Mirrorsoft at the time. and Mirrorsoft had Tetris in their hands. and just through a series of.

miscommunications and bad deals lost it. and had they had Tetris who knows what. what that would be because they were. already a powerhouse in video games um. especially in the UK. Uh, and if they. had continued owning Tetris, they might. have they might still be around, but. because they lost it under Maxwell, um, it's just another huge black eye on his. reputation as a businessman. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, so I mentioned. politics early on in Parliament, uh, and. that he was a conservative human in his.

heart, but because he wasn't part of. that establishment, he was like, "All. right, I'll go to the Labor Party." And. that's what he did. he became a Labor. Party uh member of parliament. uh from 64 to 70 and he was like, you. know, he's one of these politicians kind. of say whatever just to just to get in. there. And he was like, you know what, I. came from a a farm laborer's background. and I had I was I had no money. So like. I'm I'm basically a socialist even. though like he was the farthest thing.

from that in in reality. >> Yeah. uh and was just they called him. the biggest gas bag in the commons. Like. he was not wellliked within the house. the the walls of parliament. Um. apparently no one liked working with. him. Uh there were a lot of rumors. floating around about various. improprieties. There was one rumor that. he sold part of the Palace of. Westminster's wine seller to an. anonymous buyer for like way less than. what it was worth. I didn't see if that. was really true, but. >> point is no one liked him in Parliament.

apparently. >> No. And it's believable. Like you could. you wouldn't put it past him. That's. just his reputation, right? >> Yeah. But I mean, he won election and. re-election. >> Yeah. Um apparently right before his. election, he was he was arrested shaving. the day before um while he was driving. 90 miles an hour. >> Shaving while driving. >> Yeah. >> An SUI. >> Yep. >> Or no, I guess it would be a du dus, [laughter]. >> I guess. >> No, no, DWS. driving while shaving. Good.

lord. >> Yeah, there you go. >> God, took me a while. >> Uh, should we take a break and then come. back and talk about that max factor? >> Yeah, let's do it. >> Okay, we're going to do that, guys. [music].

All right, more promise of talking about. the Max Factor, which was not. [clears throat] a compliment for this. guy. Uh, >> I mentioned early on that he was a bit. of a bully. >> Um, apparently he was well known for. just sort of his atrocious behavior. Um. there was a a Daily Mirror editor named. Roy Roy Greensdale who said when they. were first met at this restaurant uh he. walked in uh Maxwell and like just like. swept everything off the table, all the. cutlery saying like it wasn't laid out.

correctly. And apparently he had done. that more than once. >> Mhm. >> Uh he would bring his kids into work and. like belittle and lecture the staff like. to impress his kids. He would file fire. people while they were on vacation. Uh. he would leave the the uh door to this. bathroom open. Apparently he would. urinate off the top of the building. Uh. just real borish behavior. >> Uh yeah. At the same time though, he's. like um cultivating this English.

gentleman. um persona. >> Yeah. >> Um which was very much encapsulated by. his his accent. He didn't sound anything. like someone who was born and raised in. Czechoslovakia. [laughter]. >> No, not at all. No, he he was like I. mean being elected as a member of. parliament it's pretty good for your. reputation. Um so it like. we know so much about him now and like. what he did throughout his life. >> Yeah. >> His image now is not what his image was.

when he was you know alive and and. working and working in parliament and. doing all that stuff. I think people who. worked closely with him knew what he was. like, but I think in general he was just. kind of this viewed as this larger. than-l life personality by the public. who knew about him. >> Yeah, I think so. Uh but yeah, he was he. was a blowhard. He would do things like. uh if someone walked into his office, he. would say like, "Give me the White House. on the phone." And then apparently just. have like a fake conversation on the.

telephone to the White House. >> That's like That's what insane people. do. Yeah. I mean, I only do that if I'm. trying to avoid somebody in public. >> Sure. >> You even make the dialing sound like. >> I do. I got a call. Sorry. Uh, he was. not a good father and husband like I. mentioned earlier. Um, he lived in this. huge mansion called Hadington Hill Hall, uh, which was leased from the Oxford. City Council. uh and apparently was like he would at.

dinner time he would assign his children. uh topics that they had to like impress. him with and he would judge them. >> Um apparently there was physical abuse. Uh he cheated on his wife like time and. time again. >> Uh his wife described him as as bullying. but would also take up for him at times, you know. >> Yeah. She set the bar pretty low. She. said he was he was no degenerate. monster. >> Right. [laughter]. >> Right.

>> Uh he was also famous for um he he gave. her six rules for basically getting. along in a lasting partnership. And it. depends on how you look at it. You could. look at it like he is a doineering bully. who was, you know, making his his wife. adhere to these rules that he was laying. down. But if you if you read all the. rules, it's actually these are actually. pretty good sensible rules for for. maintaining a partnership that if both. people um honor it, then then you've got.

something good. If you if it's just one. person, then you got a problem. >> Yeah. I got the impression it was here. are your six rules that you need to do. to stay married to me. >> I wouldn't I wouldn't put it past him. >> Yeah. I mean, we'll go over them real. quick, but uh in the context of this is. what you need to do and not this is what. I pledged to do for you, >> right? >> Number one, don't nag cuz who I love. that's number one. >> Uh number two, don't criticize unduly.

Uh number three, give honest. appreciation. Number four, pay little. attentions. That's sweet. >> Uh to me is what he was saying, right? >> Uh number five, be courteous to me. Mhm. >> And then number six, have the utmost. confidence in yourself and uh and me. [laughter]. >> Yeah. I mean, really, if you if two. people come at a relationship like that, look, observing those six, I guess, rules or guidelines or whatever, I think. that's kind of good. But yes, I'm quite. sure you're right that he was like,

"Here's what you need to do for me.". >> Yeah, for sure. >> And and he he used it against her, too. He said like, "Don't nag me about me. doing these rules. That's rule number. one. >> That's right. That's right. You don't. talk about fight club. >> He got her with the legal mumbo jumbo. >> Uh he had, you know, quite a few kids. He lost very sadly a couple of them. He. lost a daughter, Karine, of leukemia at. age three, and he had a a son named. Michael that died at age 21 after being. in a coma after a car crash. >> Uh it it seemed like the little apple of.

his eye was young uh Galain. Uh he named. his yacht after her, Lady Galain. And um. even though she had a hard time. impressing him at times, it seems like. >> Yeah. Supposedly she put herself on his. radar at age three when she went and. presented herself in front of her mom. and said, "Mommy, I exist.". >> Yeah. >> As a three-year-old. And I guess that. really captured Robert Maxwell's. attention. And from that point on, he. was she was very clearly his favorite.

Yeah. >> Um but yeah, even still I don't think. like. >> it it seems like he was he would still. berate her at the drop of a hat or. something like that. He just maybe did. it slightly less than he did to others. or maybe he didn't beat her. I'm not. sure. But everyone knew that she was the. favorite. Although when it came to. business, it was his two sons that he. brought into business with him, not his. daughter, not his wife. And when he. died, uh his his philosophy was that you.

didn't leave, um your estate to a woman. So he didn't leave anything to Gillian. He didn't leave anything to uh his wife. He left it all to his sons. In this. case, that turned out to be quite um. quite a bit of baggage, not not um. anything good. >> Yeah, we'll get to that. Uh so he died. under shady circumstances. So, we're. going to talk a little bit about his. death and then um sort of everything. that was um happening to him at that. time, which leads people to speculate.

like was it suicide, was it murder, or. was it an accident? But on November, [laughter]. >> well, he did have the Max Factor. Uh on. November 5th, 1991, uh when he was 68, he fell to his death from his yacht, his. 15 million pound lady galain. and he had. uh earlier that year he had sailed into. Manhattan to buy the New York Daily. News. Uh that's what I mentioned was. 1991. And then. >> in the fall he um sort of splur the-. moment trip to the Canary Islands where.

um looking back crew members were like. it was weird in that he showed up by. himself which was unusual. >> Didn't have like his uh butler or his. like people like his caretakers. And. they said he also seemed like in really. good spirits, which was sort of unusual. And he didn't work while he was on. board, which was super unusual. >> Yeah. And so he was essentially getting. away from his world collapsing in on. him. >> Yeah. >> That like he he said that he needed to. go do something, I think. But there was.

no one who was fooled. Like he was just. trying to get away from things. It. that's especially kind of signaled by. the fact that he didn't work. Apparently. his there was no line between his. private life and his business life. So. he was always working, right? >> Yeah. And you know when you were talking. about business collapsing like you know. financial failures but also sort of his. his schemes like you know the walls. closing in on his schemes like you. mentioned he was basically raiding his. companies for profit uh a lot of the.

times from the pension funds. I think it. ended up being close to. >> close to 500 million pounds from pension. funds. You do not do that, man. >> No. And he was uh at the same time he. was he was selling uh Pergamon, he was. secretly buying shares uh in his. companies to prop up stock prices like. while he was trying to rid himself of. these things. >> Yeah. He was he [clears throat] was in a. really bad spot because a bunch of. factors basically came together to have.

all of his um creditors basically call. in all his debts at once. Right. >> Yeah. >> And he had used those pension funds as. collateral which is that's on Lehman. Brothers that's on Goldman Sachs. Like. you should not take pension funds as. collateral even if and he was fully. legally in charge of those pension. funds. So he legally could do that. But. just being a banker like that and. knowing. >> the look that the optics of being like, "Yep, give us those pension funds cuz.

we're calling in a debt you can't. repay." Of course, that's just a. terrible collateral to take. That's. neither here nor there as far as Robert. Maxwell's concerned. The other bankers. though that held shares in his. companies, they were threatening to. basically say, "We're going to sh sell. these shares that you've gave us as. collateral. We're going to dump them on. the market all at once and that's going. to drive your stock prices down even. further which is going to mean you have. even less money to repay us. Yeah. >> So he's getting it from every which way.

And then not to mention they didn't know. about the pension rating until after he. was dead. So there was it was not like. people were beating the drum. That. anticipation was hanging over him as. well. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh he, you know, seemed. to be in a pretty paranoid state. He had. his uh his offices and businesses. bugged. Uh apparently he had his own. house bugged so he could hear what his. family was saying about him. [laughter]. >> That's nuts. >> Uh and then there was this other sort of. wall closing in on him and that there.

were allegations that he was a spy for. Israel. Um he had invested at one point. I think about 250 million pounds in just. various Israeli companies. And in 1991, there was a guy claiming to. be a former intelligence officer for. Israel named uh Ari bin Manashi who told. the news that uh Maxwell and one of his. editors that was working with him at one. of his papers were Israeli agents.

>> And apparently in 1986 there was a uh a. nuclear scientist named Morai Benoonu. who went to London as I guess as like a. whistleblower. >> Yeah. um saying that like there's a dangerous. nuclear arms program happening in Israel. and he was going to blow the lid off of. it and sell it to the Sunday Times and. Maxwell convinced him to sell it to him. instead to the Mirror. Uh he ends up. sending that information to Israel as. supposedly like to fact check it and. confirm it, but he ended up stiffing uh.

Venu for the money and never ran the. story. Yeah, that's a that's a technique. that billionaire tyrants who own news. organs do. They'll they'll it's like c. catch and. >> catch and kill. >> Catch and kill. Yeah. Where you buy the. story, you buy the exclusive rights to. the story and then you don't publish it. You just sit on it to keep the public. from knowing about it. >> Yeah. I That's what happened in this. country. Remember? >> Happens a lot. It's really messed up. And as far as Venu, he was later drugged.

and kidnapped and jailed for 18 years in. Israel, >> right? So Maxwell was like, "I'm not an. Israeli spy. This is all just BS." And. then Seymour Hirs flew in with a book. And in the book, it wasn't just about. Maxwell, but he's tangentially in the. book. And and Seymour Hirs was like, "Yeah, that's all true." Seymour Hirs is. one of the most indisputable journalists. of all time. If he says something is. true, he has done so much research on it.

that he's he'll stand behind it every. time. And most of the time it is, if not. every time, it's quite true. So he said. that yes, this um this guy was an. Israeli spy all this time that he was a. businessman too and it got brought up in. parliament. In Great Britain, their liel. laws are very heavy against the papers. and for good reason. So the papers tend. to kind of stay in line about even. talking about rumors like that. But once. it was brought up in parliament, now the.

papers could report on parliament. mentioning it and dig into it and they. could report on it without any fear of. liel. So this is going on at the same. time too. >> All right. So yeah, walls are closing in. in you know financially uh. professionally um politically I guess. and this you know whole spy allegation. business. So, he falls off this yacht. supposedly. His last words at 4:45 a.m. were uh complaining [clears throat] to. the bridge crew about how uh the.

temperature in his cabin. [snorts] And. apparently, this guy liked peeing off of. things cuz apparently he went to pee off. the back of the boat, >> uh which they said was like a normal. thing for to for him to do. And then. fell over a low rail. And this, you. know, this was a not the the yacht where. you're falling from like six stories up. It's like a uh you know, it was a yacht, but it wasn't like he was falling from. 100 feet or something like that, >> right? >> Uh so it was like a low fall and. pathologists like no one's ever agreed. on what happened to him. Um pathologists.

failed to agree on anything besides he. drowned. Some people said he had a heart. attack first. Uh some said that no, he. actually tore his arm muscles. >> Oh man. >> Uh so he was clearly trying to hold on. so it wasn't suicide. M. >> uh they ended up finding his naked body. floating about 15 mi away. Uh I think. maybe the next in the next day or two. and the whole thing was like did he. fall, did he jump, or is it possible he. was murdered? Uh has been sort of the.

question since then. >> Yeah. And I think the reason why he was. he he drowned was because the ship was. cruising at the time. So without anyone. knowing that he'd fallen over, he was in. the middle of nowhere by the time that. that ship realized that he was gone. hours later, right? >> Yeah. >> So, um, let's start with these, Chuck. There's, uh, let's start with suicide. You said, I think what kind of convinces. most people is he clearly on his way. down tried to grab onto the rail and.

pulled his his tore the muscles on his. side. I can barely say it. It just. sounds so painful. So he wanted to live, right? And also it wasn't a high jump in. the first place. Um so suicide probably. wasn't it. Some people who who some of. his biographies even were like he would. not have done well with all the public. attention that was about to be unleashed. on him. His reputation was about to be. completely ruined. Financially he was. about to be completely ruined. So yeah,

suicide makes sense. But again, that. torn arm muscles basically say, "No, that that's just not what this was.". >> Yeah. I mean, you know, his family has. always said it was an accident. Um just. uh I think beyond the the arm muscles, just I think they're knowing him, uh I. think his wife said it just wasn't in. his character, >> right? >> Uh they thought he was just the kind of. guy that would never give up. Even if. facing all of this stuff, >> he would still like try and fight his. way or or buy his way or get loans to. get out of this stuff.

Um most of his family I think in closest. people were convinced it was just an. accident. Uh there was one pathologist. who argued against suicide because uh. because of the arm thing for sure uh or. the fact that he was naked. >> um that seemed a little strange I think. to them as well. >> Mhm. So accident seems pretty. >> pretty prominent right? >> Yeah. >> There's also assassination. Um remember. uh Israel was supposedly being outed as.

having used him as a a spy for years and. years and years. Um that wasn't enough. to fuel that rumor of Israel killing. him. Um what what the rumor was is that. he had asked Israel for a loan and. Israel said no. And he said, "Well, you. know what? I'm going to go tell. everybody about me being a spy for you.". And they were like, "No, you're not. We're going to rub you out." Um that's. basically what when people say he was. murdered, that's usually what they point.

to. >> Yeah. And there was some uh the initial. pathologists, I think, had um speculated. that his body was dead longer than it. was in the water. >> So that kind of spurred a little bit of. uh speculation about murder, but uh. apparently the the crew of the Lady. Galain was like, "No one was on board. that uh wasn't authorized. No one could. have climbed aboard that we wouldn't. have known about. Um Ken Lennin was a. guy who knew him said he like saw the. corpse and it wasn't, you know, it.

didn't have like any markings of. struggle or gunshot or throat cut or. anything like that, >> right? Um there's also a theory that he. faked his death, which is quite. possible, but um he was pretty. recognizable. So he would uh it would. have been difficult for him to start a. new life somewhere without you know. completely changing his face at least in. his voice. >> Yeah. And I think that's one of those. things where like they said well he had. mentioned it before. >> Right. >> Uh I I think he was one of those guys. that would just like muse about.

something like that. >> Yeah. And if you listener were just like. fake your death. I'd love to hear more. about that. Well we did an episode on. faking your death you can go look up. too. >> Oh god. That was early on wasn't it? >> No that was like a year or two ago. Oh, was it? What am I thinking of then? >> Uh going over Niagara Falls in a barrel. >> Oh man, that was a long time ago. >> There was a worst way to die. That's. probably what you're thinking of. >> Well, maybe. So, uh either way, uh you. mentioned earlier that he sort of did.

his uh wife and daughter a favor by not. leaving them the business because the. business was. >> I think it was the largest may still be. the largest bankruptcy in Britain's. history. >> Yeah. uh debts of like well over400 million. pounds uh that they were initially on. the hook for. They were uh I think. prosecuted for fraud as well in 1996, but they both successfully uh defended. themselves and the pensioners. were eventually bailed out by public. funds apparently.

>> Yeah. >> Like they got their money back. >> They got like half like basically 50. cents on the dollar. So they they still. lost out, but at least they weren't just. completely screwed, which was cool. The. UK to swoop in and do that, you know, it. was that means everybody in Great. Britain chipped in so those people. wouldn't just completely lose their. pension. That's pretty neat. >> Yeah. >> So, um yeah, before before Gain Maxwell. came along and tarnished her family's. reputation, it had already been well. tarnished by the time uh that rolled.

around. like her father's death was like. this is. >> like like his reputation just completely. went downhill. How about that? >> Yeah, totally. >> Uh yeah, Galain Maxwell, that's a whole. other episode if you ask me. >> Oh man, are we going to do that one day? >> Someday. >> Okay. >> Okay. Uh if you want to know more about. Robert Maxwell in the meantime, there's. all sorts of interesting articles about. him, too. Uh there's documentaries. Uh, the House of Maxwell I think was a good.

BBC one from a few years ago. And uh, since I ended this like a old school how. stuff works episode, uh, it's time for. listener mail. >> Uh, this is about the tobacco. settlements episode. Hey guys, I wanted. to provide some more info about one of. the points of confusion you had. [music]. Uh, I worked for years doing health. policy work for the Minnesota House and. this source of funds was a hot topic as. we were discussing other policies to. target the rise in youth tobacco use. Uh, Josh, you were asking about how the.

settlements worked with regard to. tobacco companies paying in perpetuity. while also having a specific settlement. amount. Uh, for background, Minnesota. agreed to about 6.5 billion in. settlement funds. Uh, we were not part. of the master settlement. Uh, it's. actually pretty simple. That $6.5. billion number was an estimate of the. settle set settlement's value at the. time of the settlement, not a cap on how. much companies [music] would pay. >> Oh, cool. >> So, Minnesota received a series of. onetime payments targeted at specific. tobacco sessation and public health. uses, but we also receive an annual.

payment each year that can be used for. basically whatever the state wants. Uh, these annual payments are the ongoing. payments that are based on a formula. around tobacco sales and profitability. that you touched on in the [music]. episode. In Minnesota, these annual. payments are about $150 million each. year. And when counting everything the. state has gotten from the tobacco. [music] companies so far, we've received. something like 5.7 billion so far. >> Wow. >> Uh hope it provides some clarity. And. that is from Jeremiah Wingstead. >> Man, that's so awesome. I love hearing. from people who are there.

>> Yeah. >> You know, >> and who who actually know the stuff. And. we can always we can always count on. that almost. >> Yeah. That's so cool. And also big ups. to Minnesota because they were the ones. who as part of the settlement required. the tobacco companies to make their. documents public. >> That's right. >> Thanks a lot, Jeremiah. Uh if you were. there, no matter what we were talking. about, we want to hear from you. And. even if you weren't, that's fine, too. We always like to hear a hello from our. listeners. You can send us an email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and. send it off to stuffodcast.com.

Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [music].