Who's Up For A Circular Economy | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, and welcome [music] to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck. And Jerry. will be here eventually, but for now, all you got is Josh and [music] Chuck. But really, what more do you need on. stuff you should know? >> Yeah. [music] In our world, in about 2. or 3 minutes, Jerry will just come in. and go, "Hey, I'm here, guys. Sorry I'm.

late.". >> I feel like she's learned not to to do. that. She'll just sit there on mute for. a while. >> Really? >> Yeah. She hasn't done it in a little. while. >> She's really turned over a new leaf. >> All [laughter] right. >> We'll see. We'll see. We should leave it. in if she does come in. >> Yeah, we should do that. >> We'll share with everybody. >> Except they'll just hear our end. So all. they'll hear is Oh god, Jerry. >> Well, no. I think if she chimes in on. Riverside, we could edit that into the. final. >> edit. This will be a fun test.

>> It will be. [laughter]. And there's a little peak behind the. curtains for everybody of how we do our. thing. >> Slap Dash. >> That's [laughter] right. While making. fun and cheering. >> Yeah. Hey, I just noticed we were not on. the list of Time magazine's 100 greatest. podcasts of all time. >> What? Really? >> Yeah. It was funny because I saw that. list. >> and my first instinct was I mean top 100. like. >> that's a lot. >> Like surely surely we cracked the top. 100. >> They probably haven't heard of us is. what it is.

>> No, we're not on there. Literally all of. our oldtime colleagues on you. [clears throat] name it. Radio Lab 99%. Invisible Ira uh Marin like. >> every podcast of note of the past 18. years except for us basically. >> Wow. That's very stuff you should know, isn't it? >> It is. It is very fitting. >> We don't let that stuff get to us, though, do we? >> No. It's Time magazine. Who cares? >> Yeah. I didn't even know they put out a. stupid podcast list. >> Yeah. Watch. We're going to be men of. the year now. [laughter].

>> The headline on the cover will be like, "Oh gosh, we forgot.". >> Well, the two of us, >> you'll be men of the year, but I won't. be mentor. That's how it'll work. >> That's what time does. They tinker with. relationships by dividing. >> That's right. Speaking of tinkering. >> Mhm. >> I think we could all tinker with our. worldwide economy a bit and perhaps make. it more circular. >> What are you talking about? >> Well, Josh, I'm talking about our topic. at hand. >> Mhm. >> Talking about circular economy, my. friend.

>> Oh, I got I didn't get the reference. >> Mhm. >> So, have you heard of this before? >> Uh, yeah. >> Okay. Yeah, I I ran across it. I as far. as I know it's fairly new from the 2000. as I didn't see that it was an idea that. was laying around already in this exact. form and then was picked up and and. promoted. So it's possible it was. generally. um created by the Ellen MacArthur. Foundation. >> Hats off to Ellen MacArthur. >> Yeah. So Ella MacArthur, as far as I.

know, still holds the world record for. the fastest solo sail trip around the. entire world. 26,000 miles of. circumnavigation. >> circular. >> in 72 days. Yeah, she loves circles. And. apparently on her trip, I was reading. about it. It sounds just insane. Uh, and. by the way, whenever I read of like. world sailing trips, I can't help but. think of one of the best documentaries. of all time, Deep Water, about Donald. Crowhurst. I believe you've seen it.

before. I know we've talked about it. >> Oh, if you haven't seen it, I actually. envy you. Is this the guy who the diver? >> Nope. He's a sailor. It was about like a. 1975. world sailing competition. >> So he was Why is it deep water if he. wasn't deep in the water? >> Because he's he's sailing over deep. water. >> Oh, over deep water. They should have. called it over deep water. >> You uh. >> sailing over deep water. >> You should actually I'll wait. Let's. just pause recording and go watch it.

It's that good. >> Uh I'll look into that. I' I've been on. a documentary kick lately, so I'll I'll. I'll defin I'm ripe. >> This is Time would put this one on their. top 100 documentaries of all time, probably. >> Yeah. >> So, um Yeah. So, while she was sailing. around the world, she just started she. had, I guess, a lot of time to think and. saw a lot of waste and junk and terrible. stuff and realize that there's a. [clears throat] better way. And a lot of. people have thought like, okay, there's. a better way to do this. There has to. be. And what she promotes, what she's. kind of come up with is this idea of a.

circular economy. And in a very short. back of the envelope sketch of it, the. outputs, the waste of the economy get. reused as inputs. >> Yeah. >> As basically turned into raw materials. And people say, "Oh, recycling, that's a. big part of it.". >> Yeah. >> But as far as a circular economy is. concerned, we idealize recycling. Like. we're like, "That's the best you can. do." They're like, "That's actually the. least desirable out of all of them. There's a bunch of other stuff we can do. instead." So, circular economy.

>> Yeah. I mean, it sort of aligns with the. the whole reduce, reuse, recycle ethos. >> Mhm. >> Uh I think that we could best explain it. by maybe starting with what we generally. have now, which is linear uh economy. >> Uh and that's who helped us with this? Dave. >> Uh yeah, Dave helped us. >> Yeah, it it smacks up Dave. Uh but Dave. calls it and Dave didn't invent this. term but it's a take make waste economy. system where you take resources and you.

know whatever like you cotton or uh any. kind of raw material um you make. something into that to a product to sell. to people and then that thing maybe. generally quickly wears out and you. throw it away uh and it goes into a. landfill. It's a very um I mean it's. kind of the worst possible scenario you. could ask for if you care about uh. planet Earth and people and the world. and animals and nature. Uh and it's. linear because it goes in one way. You. you you have something, you make.

something and then that thing wears out. and you throw it in the landfill. >> Yeah. You take the you take the cotton. that you grow, you make it into a car, you drive the car into a landfill and. jump out right before it goes over the. cliff. That's what everybody does. >> That's right. So you left out kick back. and watch the money roll in because. that's ultimately what the biggest. challenge to implementing a circular. economy is. One of the biggest ones. >> is that the linear economy that we have. set up that's been around since the. industrial revolution is a money making.

machine. And it's easy to criticize when. you sit there and look at all of the. terrible waste and pollution and uh in. inequality that's gen been generated. from it. You can also say yeah this. wealth has funded a lot of science. It's. improved a lot of living conditions. Even the poorest people in America are. living high on the hog compared to um. the poorest people in other nations. Like it the wealthy nations have really.

done well for themselves with the linear. economy. Again, that's a big reason why. there's a lot of reticence to transition. to something different. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh there are some, you. know, notable um uh I'm trying to think. of a a term we could come up with that. labels instead of a gold star, like an. industry that gets the opposite of that, like a a turd pin or something that you. wear. I. >> hate that word so much, turd. >> But yes, that would work very well. Do.

you know what makes turd worse is that. it's spelled t u r d. >> Yes, [laughter] that definitely does. make it worse. Everything about that. word is so bad. >> Yeah, totally. Um turtly. So the four. sectors that are sort of the worst are. food, electronics, consumer goods, and. construction. Um food obviously, and. we're going to get into these um you. know, more specifically as we go on, but. generally speaking, food is a pretty. terrible sector. We've talked about food. waste before. Uh but it's not just the. food waste that's like tossed by grocery. stores and restaurants and stuff like.

that, but it's also, you know, a lot of. places still are just using those. single- use bags, and people are like, "Sure, double bag it, triple bag it. I. don't want my tube of toothpaste to fall. through that thing into the parking. lot." Uh and then all the packaging that. goes into it. We've, you know, again, we've covered all this stuff in various. forms here and there. uh unsustainable. farming, electronics. Don't even get me. started on electronics recycling and. electronics that are um basically. impossible to repair or get repaired.

>> Well, they're designed that way. Uh we. did an entire episode on that planned. obsolescence. And um. >> nothing gets me more mad almost. >> Yeah. When when a company purposefully. designs a uh a product to break in a. short amount of time, like they'll put. some sort of sensor or electrical. component next to something that. generates a lot of heat so that it. degrades faster. Like it's designed to. break for you to throw away and then go. buy another one.

>> Um that's a big problem. Yeah. Like you. said with electronics, but clothing is. another one too. It's it's designed to. just be worn. You buy it cheaply, you. wear it for a little bit, you throw it. away. And we'll, like you said, we'll. talk more about this stuff later, but my. eyes started popping out when I was. reading about clothing. >> Yeah, that's one for sure. Uh, and then. construction. A lot of resources used in. construction. Um, and you know, basically construction materials, anytime we've done any sort of like.

renovation project, cuz you know, we. live in like a hundred-y old house. But. we've instead of moving, we kind of. stayed and fixed it up over the years at. first by ourselves and then with, you. know, the help of contractors and such. >> Mh. >> Uh, and as you know, you've been through. stuff like that. It's like when that. construction dumpster pulls up, >> we do everything we can. We fight tooth. and nail to give stuff away like, "Hey, can you put all these awesome hundred-y. old bricks out by the sidewalk? Someone. will take them.". >> And, you know, they they will acquies. You know, they hate dealing with us uh.

because they just want to throw that. stuff in the dumpster. But we've managed. to get rid of a, you know, we're going. through a little thing now. And I had. this really awesome screen door. And. they were literally throwing this really. nice screen door. It was like a good. one. It wasn't just like a $40 screen. door. >> It was like a Prada screen door. >> No, [laughter] it was Gucci, I think. No, but it was like a from like a. Craftsman company for Craftsman Homes. It was sort of like an upscale screen. door. >> Mhm. and they were throwing it in the. trash and I almost tackled the guy and I.

put that thing out there and it it was. gone in an hour, you know, and it just. Oh, I bet. >> Just little things like that make me. feel like, oh god, that thank I saved. one little thing from the landfill. >> Nice work, man. >> Not for a pat on the back, but you know. what I mean. It just doesn't deserve it. >> It [laughter]. it just kills our conscience is just. burning up when they're throwing away. even old wood and stuff. You know, I try. to take that stuff to the camp and burn. it. You know what I found when you're. dealing with contractors and. subcontractors, if you want them to do. something, you have to tell them.

directly and in a kind of an. authoritative voice and then finish with. chop chop. >> Yeah. And also stand there and watch. them because as soon as you leave. they'll just say like whatever, dude. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah, >> for sure. Um, okay. So you guys out. there listening probably have bloody. crescentshaped fingernail marks on the. heel of your palms from hearing all this. stuff. So just settle down, relax a. little bit because now we're going to. tell you a little bit about an. alternative to that. The closed loop.

model, not linear, circular, >> the circular economy. And it basically. says. >> it takes a look at everything wrong with. the linear economy and fixes it one by. one. And it's like there's a lot left. open. It's not like this is just a a. like a completely ready to go. >> um economic model that's going to solve. every single problem and it's not going. to create any other problems. It's more. we're at the most conceptual stage.

>> Yeah. >> That is being presented to people to. say, "Hey, there's another way and here. are some of the ways we can do it.". >> Yeah. And it's sort of just the opposite. of everything we were just saying. Instead of planned obsolescence, there's. a planned permanence. It's like, hey, let's make something that lasts for a. long time. Uh, that's one. Um, make. something that's repairable. That's. another. >> Uh, one really kind of brilliant thing. that we're going to talk about later is. that this idea of instead of owning. something like sharing stuff, uh,

renting things, sharing things, uh, paying for the use of things that you. don't own, >> right? >> Like, you know, splitting that up. Uh, and then if something finally does reach. the end of its life, cuz not everything. will last forever, even the most. well-made thing. Um, those components. then you can take down and hopefully. most if not all of that can be recycled. or remade into something else. >> Yeah. And if you'll notice, reduction of. consumption isn't an emphasis of this. I. didn't see that talked about much at.

all. So, no one's saying like, hey, >> you can't keep growing. It's just that. the stuff that you're creating needs to. last much much longer. And the greatest. thing you can do is to keep it as close. to the consumer as possible, right? So, let's say you have a hammer. Uh, everybody knows a hammer breaks like the. second time you ever use it. >> Would you hammer in the morning? >> More the evening for me. >> Okay. >> Uh, but I would do it all over the land. >> All right. So, um, when you take a.

hammer, I was kidding about it breaking, but but if you have a hammer and you you. don't use it a lot, the best you could. do is give it to somebody else who is. going to use it more rather than throw. the hammer away. That's a terrible. example. I know people don't really. throw hammers away, but keeping it it. reused so that there's no inputs or very. little inputs. That's the ideal. the. more inputs necessary. Taking it apart, transporting it somewhere, putting it. back together, refurbishing it, that is.

the least desirable, even though that's. still within this scope that we. currently have in the linear model that. that's like the best you can do. Th you. know, like recycling, recycling is the. last thing you want to do. >> Yeah. And hammer's not the worst idea, my friend, because I' I'd say 99% of the. people out there, if their hammer handle. breaks, let's say you have a wooden. hammer handle and that breaks, people. just throw it in the trash. >> Mhm. >> And you can fix that. One of my favorite. things to do is uh I follow a few.

Instagram accounts where people fix. things in front of your face like that. Just simple everyday things. And it's. incredibly rewarding to see someone take. something that would normally be in the. trash and they're like, "All you need to. do is get another piece of wood, get. that other piece of wood fully out of. there, >> and and shape it like the broken piece, and then you've got [clears throat]. another hammer.". >> How do you shape it like the broken. piece? What What tools do you need for. that? >> Well, I mean, these people do this for a. living, so they may have a lathe or. something. >> Uh, but like it doesn't even have to be.

pretty. I could I bet you you give me a. broken hammer, buddy. With my limited. tools and skills, I could make that. hammer new again if I really wanted to. >> Okay, I here here's a challenge. I. challenge all stuff you should know. listeners to mail Chuck your broken. hammers and he will fix every single one. of them for you for free and mail them. back out of his own pocket. >> That's right. Send it to uh top 100. podcaster at 123 Lane, Atlanta, Georgia. >> Should we take a break? >> Yeah, let's take a break.

>> All right, we'll be right back. >> [music]. [music]. [music]. >> This is. the purpose of this record [music] is.

the purpose. So, okay. So far, basically what we've. been saying are all good ideas. Very few. people are like, "No, I want to throw my. hammer away." I get the deep. satisfaction throwing that broken hammer. away. Um most people just don't want. their hammer to break, which again is. addressed like making products um. planned for permanence, making them just. better rather than cheaper. Um, but all. of this stuff like is going to take a. complete shift in how we view economics,

how we view growth, and also how we view. consumer behavior because we're in a. linear model right now. The basis of the. linear model is making it as easy as. possible [clears throat]. >> for you to buy and use and throw away, get rid of whatever product it is you're. buying, whether it's potato chips, a. hammer, um a cotton for a car, whatever. You're going to get me every time, by.

the way, if you keep going back to that. well. Uh yeah, but you know there are examples. of things and companies that are and. have been doing this. You know, Dave um. looked down on his kitchen table and saw. an aluminum can. I was like, "Hey, there's a good example right there. Aluminum is a a very recyclable thing.". Yeah. >> And thankfully, it's it's being recycled. in at pretty good rates. It depends on. where you are. Uh if like you're in. Brazil, that's about 100%. If you're in. the USA, about 65%. But the the average.

aluminum can that you're going to uh. purchase in the United States is made. from about 71% recycled material. So. we're we're doing okay there. It's a. good example. >> We're doing great. It's a great example. It's the probably the top example as far. as the United States goes. People tend. to recycle cans and they're easy to. recycle. So we have an process in an. infrastructure that b makes the whole. thing fairly lowhanging fruit. And. because aluminum cans are lightable. enough but also compactable, you can. transport a bunch of them. So, it's.

worth your while to transport them from. a pickup site to like our actual. recycling center. Um, there's it's just. checking all of the boxes. Even still. though, you see with as easy as it is, 35% of those aluminum cans just get. thrown away in the trash. >> Who's doing that? >> A lot of people. I mean, a lot of people. do that. Yeah, I know. It's it's kind of. nuts, but that it is that is the case. Um, so that right there just kind of. goes to show you like that's where the.

consumer behavior needs to change. Everything else is basically in place. for us to recycle all of the aluminum. cans that we have. We're just not doing. it. So that's like kind of one pillar or. an example of one of the pillars that. has to be adapted to go to a circular. economy. >> Making people more thoughtful, I guess. >> Good luck, buddy. >> I know. Oh, I think that's probably more. than anything what makes this a a pipe. dream. I I should say the most cynical. side of me says that. >> is getting everybody on board with a. single idea these days is not possible.

basically. >> Yeah. Because all it takes is one. >> schmo. >> to throw his can away in in the trash. and you just lost your 100% recycling. status and then everybody goes, "What's. the point of a circular economy anyway?". and goes back to the linear economy. >> Yeah. But the stat they could throw out. then is 100% accept Gary. >> Mhm. >> You know, >> and it would be a Gary. >> Yeah. I'm sorry Gary's, you know, it's. true. >> Yeah. Not all Garry's are bad, but all. bad people are Garry's.

>> There's a stuff you should know shirt. Not all Garry's. Just that's it. >> Okay. Uh there are also some examples of. companies that um you know I'm a big. Shark Tank fan of that TV show. >> and it seems like more and more. companies are coming through there that. are that are small and obviously they're. small because they're on Shark Tank and. looking for initial investments. But. >> they're trying to do the right thing. here. Getting corporations on board is. the big problem. But I've seen a lot of. companies come through Shark Tank where. they're like, "Hey, uh, and the reason I.

mentioned this is because Unilver is one. of the examples of a corporation that's. partnered with the Ella MacArthur. Foundation. >> They're reducing plastic waste. Uh, and. they sell a ton of stuff, but like when. they're selling detergent and stuff like. that or shampoo, now they have programs. where you're like, "Hey, send in your. empty shampoo bottle and we will fill. that thing up and send it back to you.". Uh, or or get it in concentrate. um. stuff like that. And there there's a lot. of like Shark Tank companies that are. doing similar things, including cleaning.

products where they're like, "Hey, there's a better way to do this where. you're just not even if you you're. recycling that plastic, just burning. through these things on a daily and. weekly basis and tossing it in the. recycling or worse, trash.". >> For sure. Right. And I think like. entrepreneurs creating small businesses. and focusing on like one thing that is. sustainable, reusable, whatever. Um, that's how larger corporations start. doing that stuff because they buy those. smaller corporations for that idea and.

implement it companywide. >> Yeah. Hopefully. >> So, that's great that those people are. out there. >> or or they squash it. >> Yeah. Or they squash it. >> Yeah. >> Good lord. Um, I just wanted to tell. everybody we should say hi Jerry. Jerry's here, everyone. >> Oh. >> Um, >> I was I was wrong. >> Yeah. I saw that there are I did not see. a single shampoo refilling station uh in. the US. there. I found them in. Indonesia, Mexico, Philippines, and. Pakistan. So far, >> I mean, that's that's even better. because then you're not uh, you know,

mailing stuff, you know, because that's another type of. waste is like just mailing the empty. bottles and having that mailed back. >> Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you're going. to the store already, and they're like. they're attractive little shampoo. refilling centers. And I guess if you. were really hard up, you could go just. put your head under the nozzle and do a. little a little squirt and then run home. and wash your hair. >> Yeah. I mean, they've been doing that. with the the big five gallon jugs of. water forever, you know, most. >> I thought of that, too. >> Yeah, that's a that's a good thing.

because those things are are huge and. just swapping those out and refilling. them just it only makes sense. >> Yep. Uh there's also there's a Dutch. company called Niagara which is again. backwards. You'd never know that unless. someone told you or you happen to be. wearing a Niagara t-shirt in front of a. mirror. >> Well, yeah, it is the word again. I. think just the way you said that might. be confusing. >> Okay, I got you. Yeah, I'm sure it was. confusing. I can't you just hear like a.

time podcast monitor going and like. checking some box that keeps us off the. list? >> Yeah. Like Mhm. 101. >> So, [laughter]. if we're lucky. So, this company, um, they're Dutch. They targeted car carpets. and mattresses, and those are two of the. worst offenders as far as, um, at least. as far as textiles go, but maybe as far. as all products go. Yeah. >> Because they're big. They're essentially. impossible to recycle. They're very, very hard to recycle. And people throw.

the a lot of them away. I think 20. million mattresses are thrown away in. the United States alone. 30 million in. Europe and we toss about two billion. pounds yeah of carpet away every year in. the United States into landfills. Only. 5% of carpet gets recycled. >> I couldn't even tell you where you would. recycle carpet. >> Uh I don't know. Is there a place called. Recarpet?

Maybe. >> that's what it should be called, right? >> Or carpets again, >> right? >> Or all of that backward. >> Yeah. I mean, the other reason those two. they're targeting those two, a is. because the people of the Netherlands. are great. Uh, and hey, if if you live. in the Netherlands and you would go see. a live podcast of us there in Amsterdam, let us know. >> Sure. >> Let's go ahead and just say that we're. putting out feelers for Europe, so we. we'd love to hear from people about. where we might could get an audience. >> Sure. Is that okay to say that?

>> Yeah, we should probably tell everybody. it won't be for two years. >> Yeah, we're targeting 27, but we're. going to get back on the road next year. >> Coming for you, Canada, in a big way. >> Yeah, for sure. So, you better close the. borders. >> That's a little Well, they might. I hope. we'll be welcome. We'll get a pass. I. hope. >> Yeah, it's up [laughter] in the air. But. long way of saying uh the reason that. they are targeting those specifically is. not just the uh lifespan but uh they.

actually have a name. They're called. medium life bulky products. They you. know this stuff lasts about 10 years and. they're just full of nasty chemicals. And so all of that leads to them being. two of the two of the worst offenders. Mattresses. >> and carpet. Full of chemicals. Don't. last long and they're fairly large. >> Yeah. Especially if they're stained. mattresses. Yeah. Well, yeah. Good luck. recycling that. >> I saw 80 to 120 years to for a mattress. to degrade in a landfill, which actually. seemed a little fast for me, but you.

know, it's still not fast enough. So, this this company is like, "Okay, we're. actually going to make this stuff out of. recyclable materials, but even better. than that, >> we're going to make it so that every. part of the mattress is replaceable.". >> Imagine that. >> Or repairable. >> Yes. So, you're like, I got just a a. gallons of urine staining the cover of. my mattress. I need a new mattress. cover. Rather than throwing out the. whole mattress and waiting 120 years for. it to degrade, you just call up Niagara.

and you say, "Hey, send me another. mattress cover." And they say, "Hey, we. didn't know that you could call direct. from the United States to the. Netherlands, but that's new for us. We'll send it to you straight away." And. they send it to you. You put it back on. and there's no urine whatsoever until. the next time it happens. >> That's right. Uh but they say, "What's. the magic word?" And you have to go. again. [laughter]. >> Right. >> Like like a 2-year-old again. >> Yeah, that's they do actually do that.

[laughter]. >> It's great. And we'll look at other. Dutch companies because they they're. they're doing the right thing it seems. like in a lot of ways. Um one key to all. of this is uh design. um if you have a. uh linear economy which we do uh like we. said it's it's purpose it's purposeful. it's designed uh in such a way to to. make it you know either obsolete or just. you know a mattress that can't be. recovered or whatever. So you have to.

start with design. It has to start on. the very conceptual phase of like how. could we make a mattress that could last. you forever and then you design it that. way cuz it's possible. >> Yeah. And design doesn't just apply to. products, although that's the easiest. thing to do is to say, "Okay, how can I. design this product to fit into the. existing recycling infrastructure or. design it to be reusable or repairable?". >> Um, that's the easiest one. We also. though need to design our recycling. infrastructure to make it easier to.

recycle products that aren't designed to. be recycled. So there's there's a lot of. design that has to go. But you're right, like it has to be a conscious choice. And Dave points out something I think is. important, too. Waste is a conscious. choice, too. Like when when your little. like mini um bag of of Lays potato. chips, when you're done with it, you. throw it away. It was designed to be. thrown away. Like that was a decision. that was made by the package designers.

>> They didn't do anything to try to make. it recyclable. They they decided that. the best thing for you to do with that. package is to throw it away. And as much. as you hate it, you have no choice. Your. choice is to buy those those Lays potato. chips or not buy them. And some people. are starting to based on the packaging. So people So some companies are starting. to wake up, but for the most part, people are like, I don't want to think. about the packaging that my potato chips. come in. I have so many more bigger.

pressing issues right now. um that that. if you can just make it so that the. people don't have to think about. recycling it, then you're on to. something. >> Yeah. 100%. >> And I was talking about myself. I don't. want to think about what I'm supposed to. do with potato chip package. And I'm not. being judgy. Like I'm including myself. in this. Like I I mean I'm I I would. like to think I'm more conscientious. than say the average person, but I'm. certainly I'm not at like Chuck level. >> I'm not like Emily level. You know me.

I'm on her coattails, >> right? Uh, well, I mean, when I was a. kid, we had the Charles Chips driver. come around. >> Yeah, I remember that. >> And we would give them our I mean, if. you're of a certain age, you might. remember this. There was a literal. potato chip delivery. >> company. They were called Charles Chips. and they came in a big metal tin and you. would finish with that tin and your chip. person would come by and you would give. them the tin of empty chips and they. would give you a full tin of chips. >> Yeah. They'd reach in with the cuff of. their shirt, wipe the tin out, put the.

chips in the tin sometimes. I saw. >> Yeah. And obviously, again, there's. there's still waste with the delivery. truck and stuff. So, save the emails, but we're talking about, you know, we're. not idealizing it as as perfect. We're. just saying like it's a better thing. than what we're doing now, which is. those little foil bags sitting in. landfills. >> For sure. And yeah, that's another thing. too is is because this is kind of. conceptual and not every issue is being. tackled right out of the gate with it. Um, like energy use is a big part of it.

So they obviously are like, well, we. need more renewables. That's kind of a. no-brainer, >> but it's important because not. everything can be done with with renew. with renewable resources. Some stuff. just requires fossil fuels. Some stuff. say requires nuclear. So you have to be. able to design those power plants or. those industrial smoke stacks so that. that stuff's being captured and reused. as an input somehow. >> Right. Exactly. Uh and you know, you. talked about educating the consumer, but.

um and it's not educating the uh the. corporation because they know this. stuff. They do it on purpose for a. reason like you like you said. >> Mhm. Uh but it's more about like. companies coming along where the enduser. isn't the single focus. They take a more. macro view and say well there's. something bigger at work with these. products we sell and that's planet earth. and mother nature. And while the. consumer is important and we want to.

give them a good product, we can start. from the beginning and design something. that has less of an environmental. impact. Uh designed to fit within these. recycling networks like you know. aluminum like you were talking about. like once those are up and running. >> and and a big one that I didn't even. think of that Dave pointed out was like. do you need this new product? Does does. does a consumer need it or is it just. like hey I think we could boost sales in. Q3 if we released a slightly different. version of this dumb same thing.

>> Right. So you kind of mentioned. something where um uh like using. something like oh leasing or renting. something can also be applied to things. we don't normally think of as as what we. lease or rent. Right. Um, one of the, again, a Dutch company called Bundles is. basically they they come to your house, they'll bring you your dishwasher or. your washing machine or your dryer or. your coffee maker or you can bundle it.

all together, [clears throat]. >> hence the name. >> And they're going to bring you a really. high-end MA um, sustainably manufactured. appliance. >> And you're going to have this thing in. your house, and you don't have to lift a. finger other than to use it. This. company brings it, they install it, they. come by and maintain it. Uh when it's. done, when you're done with it, say. you're moving and you can't use it. anymore, they're going to come pick it. up, they're going to refurbish it, they're going to bring it to somebody. else. It's like really circular. And the.

way that you are charged for it is by. the number of washes you you you I guess. carry out. I guess that's how you talk. about laundry. You carry out a wash. It. is called a pay-per-wash model. And the. whole basis of it is Wi-Fi. Like your. washing machine is connected to their. servers. So they're tracking how many. times you're washing. And then from what. I can tell, you get a monthly bill based. on the amount of washes you did. The. amount of use you did for that or you. used for the washer or the dryer or.

whatever. >> You know what my takeaway here is? >> What? >> You've never washed your own clothes, have you? >> That is not true. I'm actually kind of. good at my own clothes. I had to get. good because I I don't know how I do it, but there's not a day that goes by that. I don't get a spot on one of my. t-shirts. So, I I've gotten good at. salvaging t-shirts. >> Same. Same. It's incredible how stained. my t-shirt gets on a regular basis. Uh. and I I do believe you you can carry out. a wash like nobody's business. >> Do you use Shout? That's what I use. I.

shout it out. It works really well. Uh, I use and I hate having to use it, but. my friend from uh that has been working. in wardrobe departments in Hollywood for. 30 years said Zout is the one. >> I've not heard of Zout. Why do you hate. to use it? Is it made from coal? >> Uh, it's just one of those disgustingly. smelly products. >> Is it Napa? >> I don't know. But no, I mean they they. mask it. It smells like, you know, just. really really really heavily fragranced.

>> I gota Yeah. And you know, we're not. down with that. So, it gets out of spot, but it'll it'll taint. You got to wash. it by itself. It'll it'll taint your. whole load. [laughter]. Should we take a break? >> Yeah. All right. We'll take a break and. be right back. [music].

This is. the purpose [music] of this. >> All right, we're back. Uh, I did want to. mention one thing. We had to take a. quicker break cuz we were laughing too. hard. uh but on bundles uh and that. renting appliances,

>> you have to do a lot of education in the. United States to overcome the perception. of what rented appliances means. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Because we grew up in in a in you know. as it's probably still the same way as. Gen Xers where you know appliance rental. was uh something like you did if you. couldn't afford to buy stuff like you. rented your TV or whatever, right? You're like, "Oh man, that means you. don't have much money to buy a TV." But. there is a better way. And I wish they. had this here, man, because we've had.

some really bad appliance luck. >> And it makes me so mad because this. stuff's expensive. I would I would love. to rent a washer and dryer. >> Well, I'll rent you mine. [laughter]. >> I've heard they can carry out a heck of. a watch. >> Um, yeah. It's part of the American. dream to own your own washer and dryer. And. >> not me, man. I hate those things. the. government can take it from your cold. dead hand if if they try. >> Uh yeah, that's definitely that's. definitely part of American culture is. you own your stuff.

>> It's yours. >> Let's talk about food though. >> Okay, you own that, too. If you buy. that, you own it here in the United. States. Not sure what it's like in other. countries. Uh but food is a huge. problem. We've done an entire episode, I. think, on food waste before. I know. we've talked about it extensively. >> because I remember and what's sad is. we've been talking about this for. decades now and the stat remains the. same. A third of all of the food grown. in the world gets thrown away every. year. About a trillion dollars worth and.

mindless amounts of water and fertilizer. and labor inputs just wasted. Not just. in the face of all that loss of like. money or resources, but it doesn't even. get diverted to the poorest people in. the world who are starving. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh and that's a great. episode. So, I encourage you to go. listen to those. But one thing I don't. know that we've covered on any of these. uh shows while we were, you know,

beating those horses, >> what. >> dead horses, >> skinning those cats? >> No. is the the nutrient cycle and uh you. know obviously you know wasting food is. a is a moral problem and ethical problem. but one thing we haven't talked much. about is that it disrupts that nutrient. cycle. Uh if you look at nature the. system they have is is a closed loop. system. They're, you know, things grow. naturally out in the woods and it is. from soil that is being, you know, if.

it's just literally out in in the. forest, just being treated naturally by. the natural processes of of mother earth. >> and then an animal eats that thing and. then uh poops it out and that poop goes. back into the soil and feeds the soil. That animal falls over dead one day, hopefully a very old age. Then their. bodies decompose and release those. nutrients back into the earth. And it is. a dare I say elegant system that humans. have come along and completely. disrupted. >> Yeah. We make food part of our linear.

economy where um. >> the the food waste doesn't just get. tossed on the ground and and you know. biodegrade into it. You don't want to do. that anyway. Just annual PSA. Don't. throw apple cores and banana peels on. the ground because that's not a good. thing to do. What's the best thing to do. is to compost them to to some degree or. some way. The worst thing you can do. though is to throw them in a trash can. and have them taken to the landfill. because then those nutrients that were. put into that food have been taken out. of the nutrient cycle for Earth, at.

least for however long it's going to. take for that entire landfill to. degrade. Um, which I can't even imagine. how long it takes an entire landfill to. just turn back into nutrients and stuff. Um, so it's disrupted in that way. Then. we also disrupt it because we don't tend. to collect our waste um for reuse. It's. an output pure and simple. Um we don't. we don't put it back into the system. So. there's two ways that we disrupt the. nutrient cycle with our with the way.

that we treat our food. >> Yeah, totally. This may be part of a a. suite like a playlist one day because I. just realized we've done things on uh. sewage recycling or sewage treatment. plants. We've done them on landfills. So. maybe we should do like a little green. playlist one day. >> Yeah, we got one on permaculture. That. was pretty great. >> Yeah, totally. >> Um, wait, before we move on though, I. should say some of that those what are. called bioolids, treated sewage. Um, >> they it does get reused in some cases. Have you ever used Morganite?

>> Uh, why do I know that word? I think. we've talked about that. >> It's a miracle fertilizer. It does. wonders for your grass, especially if. you pair it with an inch of water. flooding your grass. But it's these little particles and they. smell but not smell the way you would. think because they actually are treated. sewage from Milwaukeee's municipal. sewage system. >> Um but they it's like a nitrogen boost. for it's fertilizer for your lawn. It's.

insane how well it works. It's cheap and. you're reusing waste from the good. people of Milwaukee. >> Well, that's great. >> And you can get it almost anywhere. It's. very It's very abundant and easy to get. and I highly recommend it. >> I'm down to zero grass now. >> Oh, you could use it on basically any. plant. So, if you have plants that like. nitrogen, >> you can toss a little Morganite on. there. >> I'll pass that along to Emily. She I'm. sure she knows about it. >> Zero grass. Is your entire lawn just um.

or your entire yard just covered with. high-end antique screen doors? >> That's right. [laughter]. It's a good look. >> I'll bet it is. I'll bet they It's a. little wobbly though, right? Walking. around on Yeah. Or are they just for. looking? >> Uh, no, no, no. You walk on it. >> Okay. >> Uh, so Ellen MacArthur's foundation is. is looking to correct this uh and making. um like basically investing in the. biological cycle of the circular economy.

like making this a part of it too and. composting is an obvious one. But. >> um one of the things that is pretty. amazing is called cascading. uh that is reusing food waste to make. other things and there's a what a Dutch. company called Peel Pioneers because uh. you know in those in in fruit peels like. orange and lemon and stuff like that. >> that that's the best stuff is in that. peel the the zest of those things and. the essential oils that you get from. those peels. >> like that's the gold man and people are.

throwing that away or composting it. which is okay but uh how about taking. those essential oils and actually making. other products out of them. And that is. what Peel Pioneers out of the. Netherlands is doing. >> Yeah. And that's I mean you can find. cascading in a lot of different um food. companies. But that's a that's a great. example because those that orange. essential oils in particular are used in. a lot of different other products. So Oh. yeah, you can have a pretty successful. business just harvesting the. >> the scraps off the floor of an orange. juice processor, you know.

>> Yeah. Uh converting stuff to bofuel is. another pretty obvious one. >> Yeah. And then um anorobic digesttors. I. have I'm putting a lot of like um hope. on anorobic digesttors in the future. where we just figure out the microbes. that eat this stuff or these microbes. eat this kind of plastic, these microbes. eat this kind of oil and like just. unleash them on all sorts of stuff and. then reuse their byproducts as inputs. I. really hope we reach that future. That.

to me is like the greenest of green. >> Yeah, we've talked about that too. I. can't remember what episode. >> I can't either. We'll have to we'll have. to use that stuff you should know um. transcript search tool to find. >> Yeah, I feel like it was like some. someone was using worms to do something. >> Doesn't that ring a bell? >> Um it might have been a bofuel app. >> Yeah, maybe. So. >> we'll look it up. >> Uh can we talk about fashion? >> Yeah, this is just crazy to me. I think. we should do an entire episode on fast. fashion, but we can hit some high.

points, I think. >> Yeah, fast fashion is sort of an. environmental nightmare. uh and a and a. humanitarian nightmare because they're. made in sweat shops uh for very little. pay by people, you know, making very. little pay. They are sold very cheaply. Uh cheap synthetic materials are used, so all the inputs are bad. Um they don't. last long and it's a it's an. environmental nightmare. Basically, I. think the fashion industry is the second. largest consumer of water.

>> Uh that has to be behind the factory. farming, right? >> Yeah. And it produces 10% the fashion industry. produces 10% of the global CO2 emissions. total. >> Yeah. And 85% of all the stuff that the. fashion industry makes ends up in. landfills. Not recycled landfills. 85%. of all the clothes made in the entire. world. Um there's another issue with it. too. Uh when you wash just washing, just. using these things, washing them in your. bundles leased um washing machine,

>> you're releasing microlastics into the. ocean because a lot of clothes, even. recycled clothes are made from plastics. or contain plastics and those things get. flushed out and it's a huge plastic. pollution problem, too, which is I mean. it's ironic like Patagonia is a always. hauled up as a great example of a. company that tries to make sustainable. circular clothing. And one of the things. that they do is their um I think their.

line of um. >> responsibility. t-shirts. Super cute. >> They're made from um fabric scraps. Cool. But also plastic bottles also cool. because we want to recycle plastic. bottles. But the problem is is that. plastic gets transferred to the ocean. So, it's one of those things where it's. like we're so far from figuring this. stuff out that even the people who are. trying to do something are still having. inadvertent effects that, you know, I'm. sure keeps them up at night. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, and you can also,

man, you can send a 10-year-old pullover. to Patagonia that's that had a collar. that ripped or something and they'll fix. that thing for you probably for nothing. >> Yeah. and you can buy you can send stuff. back to them that they will resell and. you can buy like you know gently used. things from Patagonia online. Uh they. are also working with a startup called. um Infinited Fiber. >> and what they're doing is they're t. they're working on the on the waste on.

the front end. It's a process to recycle. that textile waste because, you know, it's not like, all right, we've got this. much cotton and every single fiber goes. into making that t-shirt and there's. zero waste. >> or that car. >> Yeah. Sorry about that. That car. There's, you know, there's going to be. some textile waste on on the front end. And so what they're doing is they're. they're taking that stuff and they're. recycling that textile waste into a new. fiber called uh Infina. >> Yeah. And that stuff is 100% recyclable.

So eventually over time, if this loop. were allowed to really kind of take. hold, eventually all the cotton would be. put into or transferred into the infin. circle. And since it's 100% recyclable, um you could conceivably never have to. put new cotton in again. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh. >> I don't think it's going to happen. anytime soon. I'm just saying. conceptually that's kind of how this. stuff works. Yeah, it's even. compostable. >> It is. So, you would have to put some.

new cotton in once in a while because. Gary would go compost it just to be a. jerk, >> right? >> But yeah, for the most part, you could. once it really kind of took hold and got. going, it could it could overtake the. existing. >> cotton stocks and make them 100%. recyclable and then you wouldn't need. more cotton stocks, which is again an. issue we'd have to deal with because. then all the cotton farmers are out of. work. >> That's right. and we have no more new. cotton cars on the road. >> But um one other thing that I found that. really got to me, Chuck, I found a stat.

that said that um most of the returns. like if you try something on like a. clothing, especially if it's mailed to. you and you try it on and send it back, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Um most of those things are thrown away. into landfills. >> Yes. What? 9.5 billion pounds of just. clothing returns alone. God. >> were put into landfills in 2022.

>> Yeah. And the reason why is because. companies are like, I'm not going to pay. somebody to fold this thing back up, put. the pins back in it, put it in the. plastic, and make it new again so that I. can sell it. It's cheaper for me to just. throw it away. And there are programs. that um divert that stuff to um like. developing countries so that those. clothes are donated, but I guarantee. that's not as cheap for the company as. it is to just throw it away. That's a. huge impact that the fast fashion. industry has on on the planet. It's.

that's crazy to me. >> Yeah. I I haven't been this upset about. something I've heard from you in a long. time. >> Oh, and I say some upsetting stuff. >> I know. He usually texts them to me, but. >> those are upsetting pictures. >> All right, one last thing we can talk. about is the right to repair movement, which we talked about in the planned. obsolescence episode, but uh you know, it's exactly what you think. It's it's. hey um we need to be able to repair our. whatevers, our small appliances. That's.

a big offender. Um a lot of companies. are saying because, you know, I don't. even know if we covered this part, but. because I don't remember why companies. didn't do it, or at least why they say. they don't do it. Uh, one thing they'll. say is like, "Oh, you know what? With. electronics, um, if if we publish like. how to other people can fix these things. and basically give repair companies. repair manuals, like it's it it leaves. people vulnerable to hackers if they can. get information from that electronic.

device." And I just call foul on that. >> That sounds like a bunch of BS to me. >> They're like, "Don't forget hackers. Hackers are going to get you.". >> Yeah. because you want your uh whatever. your I iPhone fixed, >> right? And you you can't I have a Acer. Swift laptop that I love, but it's I. I've tried to replace the battery before. and it's designed to not replace the. battery. You cannot replace the battery. And obviously, the battery is the first. thing that goes out.

>> It's infuriating. >> It is infuriating because it's like they. made it so that you have to get rid of. your laptop and get another one. I it. drives me nuts. So if you put all this. together, Chuck, like electronics. companies successfully lobbying against. right to repair laws. Um companies using. planned obsolescence left and right. People like Gary just throwing their. stuff away to be jerks. Um like how c. can this even be implemented?

I can't see it happening at least in the. United States. I know the EU is really. taking some strides toward this stuff. and hats off to them. But in the United. States, I um I I I can't in the in the. foreseeable future, like as far as I can. think out, I can't see this being. implemented. >> No, I mean uh certainly not now um with. what's going on in our country. And that. I'm not trying to get too political, but. that's just the fact. It's not it's not. a not only not a priority uh for our.

current administration to invest at all. in something like a circular economy, but it's not even on the radar, >> right? >> Or or it's or it's outright being. squashed, >> right? Even more disturbing is that even. outside of the United States, globally. speaking, recycling. um or secondary materials being put back. in as inputs is actually on the decline. by significant numbers. Yeah, we're. headed in the wrong direction, >> right? >> Uh even though Dave points out that like.

social media posts and articles about. circular economy are have tripled in the. last 5 years. So there's more awareness, but. >> we're going in the wrong direction as. far as actual, you know, feet on the. floor kind of stuff. >> Yeah. And consumption keeps growing and. growing and growing. Apparently from. 2018 to 2024, we consumed 500 gigatons. of material. That's everything. raw. material, finished material, fossil. fuels. Um, and that is 28% of the total.

amount we consumed in the last 125. years. >> Yeah. >> So, it's just growing exponentially. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff to. overcome. You might say it would take. like an authoritarian government to. implement this kind of thing. And it. turns out China um has committed to. creating a circular economy for. themselves uh back in the 2000s. And. apparently they're they're focused right. now on automotive remanufacturing, which. is essentially taking old cars and.

refurbishing them and their parts, selling them like new at a discounted. price because they're refurbished. >> Oh, okay. >> So, I guess keep an eye on China and the. EU to see where things go. Uh Chuck laughed a little bit, but his. laugh was dripping with, "Okay, let's go. to listener mail." So, he just [music]. unlocked listener mail. >> Uh, this is a correction on a. correction. So, we heard from quite a. few people about the most f famous. Brandt Forian. People wrote in and said, "Alexander.

Graanbell, forget Gretzky and Phil. [music] Hartman." Alexander Graanbell. was not born in Brford. So, this is from. Joel. Hey guys, probably not the first. person to say this, but I'm correcting. your email correction. >> that claimed Alexander Graanbell was. born in Brford. He certainly lived in. Brford. So, they claim him. He was born. in Scotland and moved to Brford as a. young man. Yeah, >> I guess at one point in his life he. would definitely say he was from [music]. Brford. Uh, but that's not where he's. from. Love the show. That is from Joel. Dawson. >> Very nice. So, I guess Phil Hartman.

moves back up to number two, >> I guess. So, and you know what? Uh, whenever someone sends in their business. or something, and it seems pretty cool. [music] We like to tout them. >> Yes. >> And Joel signed his with uh. freespiritours.ca. So, I'm looking now. It looks like uh. paddling and stand up padd p p p p p p p. p p p p p p p p p p p p paddle boarding, caving, >> forest therapy. >> Awesome. [music]. >> Wine tastings, woodness, wellness. >> Wow. Also, I want to shout out Witchbolt. again. Did you see Witchbull got in. touch with us to say thanks for the.

mention on the alchemy episode? >> I did not see that. >> They did. Um he did, I should say. Uh he. got in touch to say, "Hey, you guys want. some t-shirts? Thanks a lot." He's been. listening for 15 years. His name's Nick. He's been a listener for 15 years. Witchbolt has remember the dungeon synth. guy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, um he wrote in and I was like, I'm. actually a little star struck right now. So, there's like this big circular um. love fest going on. Not a circular. economy, but a circular love fest going. on between stuff you should know and.

bolt right now. >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, if you want to get in. touch with us like Joel or Witchbolt, uh. you can send us an email, too. Send it. off to stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.