Who are the Zizians? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff You Should Know. This is, I guess, a a timely topical. true crime edition. The three T's. COA alert. Yeah, I feel I should sound the clocks. on on this one. Uh, yeah, we're issuing.

a COA on this one. A pretty a pretty. robust one because uh a this is. something we don't do a lot, which is. tackle uh true crime and uh almost real. time as far as the fact that none of. this has settled uh the alleged crimes. We're probably going to say alleged a. lot because uh there's not even been. court uh dates a lot of times for some. of these cases. uh where you know we're. talking about potentially six murders in. three states by uh a group that may or.

may not have done it that may or may not. be a cult. So just a big COA there. Um. this is one of the true crimes where. like neither one of us are going to be. like well here's my theory on this cuz. just who knows this has got to play out. first. Uh and the other big COA is a lot. of uh um sort of a disproportionate. amount of members of uh the Zizians who. we're going to be talking about are. members of the trans community. Uh and. it's just one of the sort of facts of. the case. It's obviously no uh. suggestion or judgment on our part of.

the trans community, but it's it seems. to be a big sort of part of uh this. group of people who got together. So. just kind of keep all that in mind as we. lay all this out there. Right. Nice. work, Chuck. Thank you for that. Yeah. Um, so like you said, we're talking. about the Zizians. How did you hear. about this? This is your pick. You know. what? I have no idea. And even went to. look to see if somebody has suggested. it. No one had. I think I might have. just seen a news story and been like, "Wait a minute. This is this is. something that hasn't been a 10- part.

Netflix series yet, right? So, it must. be super super current." Which it is. My. theory is that the great Gazoo said, "Do. one on the Zillians do. and you were like. I should do one on the Zizians. Yeah, thanks for bringing a joke into this. thing. So, uh, the Zizians are called. such because they center around Ziz, um, a trans woman who is often portrayed as. the leader of this cult. Uh, and I mean, you can make a pretty fair case that at.

the very least she's the leader or the. most influential member because the. whole thing's named after her. Although. we should say that this uh group of. people do not call themselves the. Zizians. That was a name that was given. to them by um somebody who's critical of. them, an anonymous person who's critical. of them. Yeah. But Ziz herself um we. know was born in 1991 in Fairbanks, Alaska. And like the other people that. she attracts into her orbit, um she was. brilliant. I mean very precocious as far.

as like working on computers goes, as. far as mathematics goes. Um I think by. the time she was at uh the University of. Fairbanks in Alaska, she had internships. at both Oracle, the cloud computing. company, and NASA. So I mean like a like. she had a pretty pretty great resume, I. guess, is what you'd say if you're on. LinkedIn. Yeah, for sure. And like you. said, that's this is going to be sort of. a common thing with everyone who got. together with with Ziz and the others. Uh so in college uh Ziz started learning.

about uh what's called the the. rationalist movement or the rationalist. community which were also uh very. science-minded people. Um they kind of. gathered around Silicon Valley. And one. of the big things with rationalism is uh. and a lot of this stuff makes sense like. a lot of the stuff that they're laying. down like hey let's use logical tool to. tools to to just always question. ourselves. Let's let's not get set in. our way of thinking about anything. Let's always revise the what we're. thinking about everything. And one of.

the key people here, one of the names. that'll you'll hear early and then uh. later on is a guy named Elezar Yudkowski. who is an AI researcher who is um kind. of doing something different than what a. lot of AI researchers are doing in that. he has devoted much of his career to. basically saying, "Hey, warning. This. this could really go wrong and I'm going. to do everything I can to make sure it. goes down in the right way." Yeah. He. dedicated himself to solving the AI. alignment problem, which is how do you.

create an artificial intelligence whose. motivations are totally aligned with. humans and we don't accidentally wipe. ourselves out with the AI we create. Yeah. Um and like you said, it kind of. flies in the face of especially what's. going on these days, which is like hurry. up and build an AI or else China's going. to do it first and and we're going to. lose out and there's so much money to be. made off of AI. Um and Eleazar Yukowski. is a very very interesting duties. self-taught AI researcher incredibly. brilliant and just by happen stance I.

got an email yesterday from uh somebody. at a publishing house that mentioned. that um he has a new book coming out in. September um with Nate Sorbs, one of his. collaborators. Um it's called If Anyone. Builds It Everyone Dies and it's about. AI and from what I understand he's. thrown in the towel. He's basically said. it's it's too late. Yeah. Um we are not. going to be able to create a friendly AI. because not enough people are working on. it and it's about to happen any day now.

A super intelligent AI is going to come. out. And so we have to figure out how to. let humanity die off in the most. dignified manner is how I saw it. described, right? Which doesn't have a. whole lot to do with the Zizians, but. that just sets up kind of who this guy. is. uh in 2009 he founded a blog uh. called less wrong as in let's do less. wrong and uh I mean I assume that's what. it means it means um so it it's about. overcoming your biases like you want to. be less wrong uh kind of it's all about.

thinking clearly and not letting your. biases guide your thinking I think yeah. so they um started gathering uh as I. guess a deacto sort of community of. rationalists uh a lot of This again is. taking place in and around Silicon. Valley and Northern California. And uh. he founded a couple of Berkeley uh. California-based organizations um. that'll come into play. The machine. intelligence research institute or MIRI.

uh and again that's about you know. minimizing the risks of AI and then the. center for applied uh rationality or. sefar. Uh, and again, same deal. Um, clear, unbiased thinking is what they're. after. Never getting too set in your. ways and always trying to revise how you. think about things, right? Um, they're. also very closely tied with effective. altruism, which is essentially using. rational thinking to um donate your. money to the greatest good. We did an. episode on on that if I'm not mistaken. We did, my friend. All of this attracted.

Ziz to um move from Alaska down to the. Bay Area in San Francisco. Um, and she. got involved with Sefar, got involved. with u Mirie um, and dedicated herself. also to trying to figure out this AI. alignment problem too. Um, and she the. thing about this rationalist community. is they are as open as you can be. You. can be a Nazi and show up and be like, I'm a Nazi and here's what I think about.

everything. And they will engage you in. debate because that's just what they do. they like no thought processes off the. table. And that attracted a lot of. interesting people who were would the. average normie would probably not. necessarily feel comfortable sitting in. a room with just because, you know, of. awkwardness, but also because they. probably wouldn't have much to converse. about because the people we're talking. about in this rationalist community are. so brilliant that they probably would. not be able to relate to the average.

person and vice versa. Yeah. or at the. very least on on some of the radical. fringes of whatever movement that. they're in. Um, Ziz is one of those. people and was uh started writing on the. the less wrong side and her own blog and. writing about again stuff that's on the. more radical end of the spectrum like. hey we got to you know sort of a uh 12. monkeys kind of stuff. Um like hey we. got to do whatever it takes. Uh some. people might think, you know, something. we're we're doing is evil, but if it's.

in the service of we what we think has a. good end, uh then that's what we should. do. Um sometimes she calls herself a. Sith, as in, you know, Star Wars. And. apparently the name Ziz comes from a. speculative fiction story called Worm, uh that a lot of rationalists love, in. which Ziz in the story is a is a. villainous entity that if um they're. listened to for too long, uh you will go. crazy. And so Ziz is all of a sudden. hanging around the Bay Area going to. these rationalist uh hangouts and.

meetings wearing uh black robes as and. sort of dressed like a Sith. So um all. this is what around 201617 that this is. all starting that Ziz is showing up. Um. and again like I said this community is. very open. So even though Ziz would show. up wearing black robes declaring herself. a Sith um lord and that that's her. religion is is Sith, but despite that. community being open, she still stood. out not necessarily because she wore. black robes and call herself a Sith, but. more because she was more intensely.

devoted and dedicated than even the. average rationalist, right? So she did. stand out some. One of the other things. that she was radically dedicated to was. uh veganism and animal rights. And this. would actually end up separating her. from the rationalist community. eventually. And that you can kind of. make a case it seems like is the initial. schism that caused this wedge that led. to all the events that would follow. Yeah. Like basically, hey, you're you're.

um trying to protect human life. Like. what about the animals? Like every. sensient animal is a person. Uh and that. this is these are Ziz's words. uh and. you know so we gota we got to kick up. the uh the intensity on the animal front. as well. Uh the problem with all of this. is that this was around San Francisco. and Silicon Valley where it's really. really expensive uh to live and uh if. you're someone like Ziz, you're you're. not uh you know going out and getting. some big tech uh job where you're making.

tons of money to afford that condo. downtown. So you got to live somewhere. And this is when Ziz meets up with uh. somebody named Gwen Danielson. Um had a. lot in common, another rationalist, another uh transwoman, another person. who was uh very much into animal rights. And Gwyn happened to live on a sailboat. in Berkeley Marina and said, "Hey, this. is much cheaper rent here. Why don't you. just come and live on this boat with me? I'm also into math. I'm also into. science. And I'm also have some pretty. radical ideas about stuff." Yeah. And so.

the point of this was if you, and this. is um Ziz's um belief, if you could free. yourself from things like paying rent, especially the high rent of San. Francisco, and keep your cost down to as. minimal as possible, you could devote. that much more time to figuring out the. AI alignment problem, figuring out how. to push Sefar and Merie into protecting. animal rights, too. Like just thinking. and learning to think better. Um that. was kind of the the point. And so I.

think Ziz initially moved into the. sailboat with Gwen Danielson, found that. they were not quite exactly compatible. roommate wise, but still friends. And so. Ziz bought her own sailboat and docked. it at the same marina in Berkeley. And. they became uh what was called the. rationalist fleet. Um this they invited. more and more people to come join them. at the marina. And they actually went so. far as to buy an old tugboat that by. this time was in its 70s or 80s maybe.

Not like and not a good age for a. tugboat. And they actually bought it. from Alaska and tugged it down or sailed. it down all the way to San Francisco. Yeah. The name of this boat was Caleb. Uh so now it's in Half Moon Bay, south. of San Francisco. And uh Caleb was a. problem though. Cable, like you said, was an old boat, an old World War II era. tugboat. So, it wasn't like, you know, even like a a a mid70s houseboat would. have been a better option probably. Um,

this thing they couldn't they had a hard. time anchoring it. Uh, it was too. expensive to maintain. Uh, it would. drift out of control and hit other. boats. So, it was not, you know, uh, everything they thought it was going to. be. So, just, you know, sort of park. that for now. I'm going to say that a. lot because we're going to be parking a. lot of things as this jumps around. Uh, and it's at this point we have to. introduce some new characters to the. scene. um again had a lot in common with. Ziz and Gwyn. Uh in that they were very. very smart, very much into math and. science. Uh some were trans and some.

were non-binary. Uh and the first player. here is uh someone named Emma Bannian. Uh a programmer worked at Google but. left Google because uh they thought the. company was corrupt. Yes. Uh, and we should say these people. fell into Zizz's um, orbit because Ziz. was a prolific blogger and blogged in a. way that like a lot of the language and. thoughts and and ideas were impenetrable. to all but a certain group of people and.

these were the people that she ended up. attracting through her blog. Um there's. a really great Guardian article about. all of this written by uh Oliver Conroy. and um Conroy says that uh there was a. glossery that somebody gave him that one. of the one of Zigg's blog followers. created of Zigg's words and that when he. printed it out it was 48 pages long. So. um like she had a certain thing going on. that attracted a certain kind of person.

and these were the people who were. falling into their into her orbit at. this time and we should also say all of. these people were in their early to. mid20s. Um I think Ziz was the oldest maybe at. the time at 26. So they were all. disaffected, brilliant, often trans. vegan 20somes who were living um very. close to homelessness in San Francisco. in the late 201s. Yeah. So the second. person was Alex Letham uh occasionally.

known as Somni uh a mathematician in. this case um went to UCLA, studied at UC. Berkeley as well. Uh then we have. Michelle Zashko, a biometrics. researcher, another smarty pants. Uh and. then someone named Alice Monday, who was. Zashko's girlfriend and a bit of a. mentor apparently according to Ziz to. Ziz. And they started sort of just. getting together, talking about their. ideas. Um they they came up with a name.

for one of their theories uh or sort of. their overarching theory called vegan. anarchhumanism. uh and Gwyn Danielson developed this. idea that the hemispheres of the brain. were basically separate and they could. operate independently from one another. Uh you can be different genders at the. same time. You can be good and evil or. good or evil at the same time. And they. started these experiments called uni uh. uni-hemismic sleep where they were. saying you can be asleep and awake at. the same time. One can be asleep and.

then one can be active and awake. And we. say this because there are people that. have accused um Ziz and others in the. group of basically uh keeping you sleepd. deprived through these experiments uh. potentially leading to a couple of. suicides that we'll talk about. Uh and. again I I have no judgment on whether or. not they are a cult or not at this. point, but if you're making a case for. cult, sleep deprivation is a very big. hallmark of something that oftentimes. happens. Yeah. That's like chapter two.

in the cult leaders playbook. Yeah, we. should say also that uni hemispheric. sleep theoretically is possible. Humans. don't do it, but dolphins do, whales do, migratory birds do. So, it's not like it. just doesn't exist. It's humans trying. to figure out how to do it themselves so. they could think longer, more hours in a. day essentially. Yeah. So, this group is. getting a little more uh upset and. aggressive toward the official. rationalist movement and community. Um. they think again that Mary and Sefar uh.

you're you're not doing enough for the. animals. Um you need to expand your um I. guess viewpoint on uh sentient beings. and what that means. And you're also. biased against trans people. Yeah. And. there was another thing too that Ziz got. really upset about. She came to believe. that Mary paid off a black mailer. Another way to put it is that somebody. accused people at Merie of sexual. assault or statutory rape. I think it. was and that they paid the person to go.

away. Some people would call it a. settlement. To Ziz, it was a blackmail, paying off a black mailer. And that you. just did not do that. That that violated. some of the basic tenants of the. rationalist community and the way of. solving problems that they use. So that. with the ethical veganism combined. really separated her from this. rationalist community. And with this. growing group around her, they decided. that they were going to show up uh go to. the SEFAR seminar conference that was.

being held in 2019. Um and they were going to present their. problems and their issues and in a very. rational way just like Sefar would want. them to. And the the people who. organized Sefar were like, "You guys are. way too aggressive for our tastes. You. can't come to this Seafar retreat." And. one of them said, "You've got a Nazi in. there." Right? So, four of them, uh, Ziz, Gwen Danielson, um, Emma, uh, Bannian, and, and it gets a little.

confusing with all the names, and Alex. Letham, uh, they went anyway, and they. had their Guy Fox masks on, and they had. their black hooded robes on. They. blocked the e exits with their vehicles, and they were like, "Here, you're going. to listen to us. Here's our flyers. Here's our problems and our issues." And. the staff didn't know what was going on. They called in a report of a possible. active shooter and the cops came. Uh. they did not have arms on them or. anything like that, but they were. arrested uh on charges of false. imprisonment and child endangerment. because there were kids there. It was a.

campground where they met north of San. Francisco. Uh and the defendants, we. should point out, the four of them did. end up filing a suit um against the. police alleging mistreatment. Yeah. So. the rationalist community is like that's. it. Not only can you not come to Sefire. retreats, you can't even hang out on the. Less Wrong blog. You can't come to our. um uh cocktail meetups that we have, which are a lot of fun. So, you're. probably going to be upset. Um they've. just got booted out. So, now this wedge.

was a gulf. It was a it was a break in. communication between the the group that. would come to be known as Zizians and. the rationalist community. And with. that, that group became more and more. isolated. And their ideas got a little. weirder and a little more far out and a. little more aggressive because they were. all similar people who were feeding off. one another in this isolated. situation. There weren't people on the. outside coming and be like, "Whoa, whoa,

whoa, let's let's rethink what you're. saying." It was like, "Yeah, that's a. really good idea." And it just kept. going from there. All right. I think. that's a good uh you can kind of park. all that stuff for now because the story. kind of jumps around the country a bit. and when we come back we're going to. pick up with part two a little north of. San Francisco in Vallejo, California. [Music].

Stop. You know, stop. You should know. No. Stop. You know. So, um, Chuck, one of the, uh, outcomes of being like pushed out of the. rationalist community, somebody launched. a website called Zizians.info. It's still around today. And they. basically chronicled all the things that.

they accused the Zizians of being a cult. or that backs up their accusation of the. Zizians being a cult. And two of the. things are something you referenced. earlier. There were two um suicides by. people who were um said to have gone. through this uni hemispheric sleep um I. guess boot camp and it resulted in their. their suicides allegedly. So um the. Zizians just have a really bad name at. this point. The marina thing is not.

working out. the rationalist fleet is. kind of sinking as it were. And they. just happened to meet somebody at the. marina named Curtis Lind who was a. 70some guy who loved people, loved. artists, and had a bunch of land down in. Vallejo and said, "Hey, um, I want. artists to come live down there. You. guys seem kind of artsy and odd. Why. don't you come live there for really. cheap rent?" And the Zizians were like, "Heck yeah." All right. So Curtis Lynn. offers uh you know them the chance to go.

live uh you know they paid rent but I I. don't imagine it very much. And in this. you know we're going to be introduced to. some more players at this point. Um one. of the members of the group that had. joined up at this time her name was uh. Siri Dao and she was fresh out of high. school and uh a leftist blogger and uh. just sort of put a pin in this. At one. point in a Discord chat, she said that. she had had uh very dramatic fantasies. about becoming a knife murderer. Uh and. there's, you know, up to 20 people at.

this time on Curtis Lynn's property. Uh. the neighbors get a little freaked out. They're like, "Hey, they're walking. around naked sometimes. They're wearing. gas masks." Uh Lind eventually is like, "You guys aren't even paying rent. anymore." Uh and they said, "Yeah, well, there's a co eviction moratorum, so what. are you going to do about it?" So. everything just starts going really uh. pear-shaped as you say in like 2022. Yeah. Also, Chuck, I saw that they would. carry katanas around like samurai. swords. So imagine seeing your neighbor.

walking around naked wearing a gas mask. and carrying a samurai sword and there's. 20 of them. It would be hard, especially. in the context of California, to not be. like, I think they might be a cult. Good. point. So, in 2022, um, like you said, things just really start to take a a. terrible shape. In August, Ziz's sister. and Emma Banian went to the police and. said, "Uh, our friend Ziz fell over. while boating." So, Ziz died during in a. boating accident. The Coast Guard, um, launched a huge search and I guess after.

18 hours, they said there's no way that. she could have survived. And she was, although they didn't have the body, they. still declared her legally dead. um and. her sister was given a death. certificate. And around the same time, uh Gwen Danielson, who was one of the OG. members of this whole group, she died by. suicide, too. So, this group is just. rocked by these two deaths in 2022. That's right. So, uh while this is.

happening, uh it's kind of at the same. time this COVID uh eviction moratorum. runs out. So Curtis Lind is like, "All. right, now I can actually um get these. people off my property finally, probably. like this November, uh two days before. he was able to do that and sort of drop. the news that they were out of there, uh. Siri Dao called, uh called him in and. said, "Hey, there's a water leak on my. property here, uh or in my trailer. You. got to come and check this out." Uh. Curtis Lynn says, "I went to address the. issue with the water, and I was.

assaulted. Uh they hit me over the head. They stabbed me with knives. They. stabbed me with a katana, the samurai. sword. Uh he ended up losing an eye. He. was stabbed through the chest. Uh. apparently he he alleges that Alex. Letham was the one who stabbed him. through the chest. And so he shot Letham. and Emma Bannian and killed her dead. If. you ask the the Zizians that were there, they said, "No, that's not what. happened. Um he'd been harassing us and. he just opened fire on us one day." So, um, the authorities tended to agree or.

believe, uh, Curtis Lind, uh, and in. fact, Letham and Dao were arrested, charged with attempted murder, and then. also charged with, um, the death of Emma. Bannian because apparently in California. law, if you do something that causes the. death of somebody else, even. incidentally, um, you are responsible or. you can be held responsible for that. death. And the thinking was that Curtis. Lynn had to kill Emma Bannonian because. of the actions of Dao and Letham. Right.

Right. So now Siri Dao and uh Alex. Letham are in jail in California. That's. where they are. So just park that like. you said. That's right. So uh police uh. took another member of the group um at. the time. Uh she gave her name as Julia. Dawson. They said, "Come down the. station with us. We got to question. you." Mhm. Uh at the station, she seemed. like she was having a medical emergency. So, they're like, "Well, we got to get. her to the hospital." Stat uh took her.

to the hospital and she disappeared from. the hospital. Detectives started. investigating uh what happened there and. they said, "Oh, you know who that was? That was Ziz. Ziz is not dead at all.". And they also determined, guess who else. was there? Gwen Danielson. Uh she's. actually alive as well. Yeah. So, if. you've heard our faking your death. episode, this is a it's a big deal to. fake your death, especially. successfully. So, the Zizians never. thought they were dead. If they did, it. was for a very short time. It was to.

protect themselves from the authorities. One of the other things that was really. a an unsettling find after Curtis Lind. was attacked, um they found a a a vat of. lie that suggested that they intended to. kill him and that they were going to. dissolve his body in it. So, um it's. starting to become clear like these. people are no joke. But at the time, this was like a a an isolated incident. It wasn't related to anything else. the. the authorities did not know that this.

was a group known as the Zizians or. anything like that. This there were. pieces that were starting to lay out on. the table, but no one had put them. together yet. Yeah, exactly. Um, all. right. So, now you can park all of that. because we're going to move once again. across the country. Uh, this time. Pennsylvania is going to come into the. picture uh in 2021. So, this is, you. know, a little bit before these events. uh Michelle uh Zashko that we mentioned. and Alice Monday who were uh girlfriends. with each other. They moved from.

California to Vermont to Northern. Vermont, pretty rural area and they were. joined by a guy named Daniel Blank, another like-minded person. He went to. UC Berkeley uh bioengineering and. electrical engineering code uh and then. worked at startups and he was also a. vegan and um started to sort of get a. little more radical about it. uh got. distanced from his parents, started. judging them for eating meat. Um and he. hooks up with Monday and Zashko in. Vermont. Yeah. And so by this time, I.

think I don't know if you said it or. not. I think you did. Um Ziz had. credited Alice Monday as being like her. mentor. Yeah. Um she had she modeled. herself largely after Alice Monday, too. Like she was apparently really assertive. with her beliefs and ideas, and Ziz. became more and more like that after. meeting Alice Monday. By this time. though, she considered Alice Monday uh. an enemy, what she called a vampire. And I guess Zajko was by by association, guilty by association. And from what I.

could tell, they Alice Monday became her. enemy because she and maybe Zashko were. warning people away from Ziz, saying. like you need to steer clear of this. person. So, Ziz considered them enemies. and she contacted Zajko and said, "Hey, um, if you want to earn my trust back, you need to murder Alice and if you. don't, I'm going to come to Vermont and. murder you." And this was the kind of a. precarious situation as as far as um,

Zashko was concerned, Michelle Zajko was. concerned because, and this really, I. think, kind of gets a lot across. She. was like, I really had to kind of. decide, you know, did I want to murder. Alice to make Ziz happy or should I kill. Ziz? This is the position that Ziz was. putting people in by this time. Allegedly. Yeah. Should we just have Jerry drop in the. word allegedly like just every 40. seconds? Allegedly. Beijing, Mr. Herman. Uh I know I promised Pennsylvania and.

we've been in Vermont for a second here, but here's where P uh Pennsylvania comes. into play. uh uh December 31st uh last. day of the year according to many in. 2022. This is about a month and a half. after Curtis Lind was stabbed and after. that all occurred in uh Viejo. So. Michelle uh Zazco's parents, Richard and. Rita, were murdered in Pennsylvania. Uh. they have ring camera footage from a. neighbor that shows two people arriving. at the house a little before midnight. And on the camera footage, you can hear.

uh what sounds like mom and then a few. seconds later, oh my god. Oh, God. God. And the parents of Michelle Zashko were. found shot in the head uh kind of. execution style in their bedroom. Yeah. So, the Pennsylvania state troopers went. to go visit Michelle Zajko in Vermont. and she's like, "I haven't been to. Pennsylvania in almost 20 years or more. than 20 years. I haven't talked to my. parents in a year, so it's not me. I. don't know who killed them." And in. fact, she showed up um to a graveside.

service couple weeks later uh and I. believe was the sole beneficiary maybe. of her parents' estate. Um while she was. there for the service, she uh was. accompanied by Daniel Blank and I guess. they had drawn some attention at the. hotel because they were both wearing. black and one of them was said to have. been carrying a gun around the hotel. grounds. So, the hotel called the police. and the police started surveilling them. And after a very short time, they um. went into M Michelle Zajko's hotel room.

and searched it. And I think they. searched your car, found something like. $40,000 in cash, and they were like, "Yeah, we're just going to take you down. to jail. All this stuff is kind of. mounting. We still think you might have. killed your parents. We're going to take. you in for questioning." And she said. something to the hotel person that was. there said, "Can you contact Daniel. Blank? he's in another room here and. tell him what's going on. And the police. were like, "I think we'd like to talk to. him, too." Went and got a warrant, and. then they went to Daniel Blank's room.

shortly after that. That's right. Uh. they detained him. Uh they did not uh. were not able to keep them for very. long. They were released pretty quickly. Uh but we should mention too, in. addition to that 40 grand in cash, they. also found several prepaid cell phones, which is a bit of a a potential red flag. as well in Michelle Zashko's car. And. while they were arresting blank, there. was someone else in the room. Uh they. were lying on the floor. They wouldn't. move. They wouldn't speak. And that was, drum roll, Ziz. Uh so Ziz is getting.

around at this point. Uh police arrested. Ziz on obstruction of justice, uh. disorderly conduct, I guess, just for. not, you know, complying, I guess, and. getting off the floor and uh stuff like. that. Um it was a misdemeanor charge, but uh they did hold her in jail for 5. months uh instead of or I guess in lie. of a $500,000 bail, which just could not. afford obviously. And the judge said, "All right, we're going to release you. You got to uh promise to pay 10 grand if. you miss court." Uh she did return to. court for that August hearing uh in a.

wheelchair pushed by her mom, but when. the trial date came up of December of. 2023, she did not show up. Uh, so I. think that's probably a great place for. our second break because the story is. really heating up now. Sure is. [Music].

Stop. You You know, stop. You should know. No. Stop. You You know. All right. So, now we're going to find. ourselves partially in North Carolina uh. and back in VJO and also back in. Vermont. And we're going to introduce uh. what I guess three more people. Uh. Olivia Bakult, Maximillian Snyder, and. Mil Milo Young Blute. Yeah. Um, so. Aphilia Bakol uh was German by birth.

Uh, and she was described as naive, altruistic, and trusting by friends. She, uh, fell into Zizz's orbit, I. think, by starting out reading her blog. Um, she was trans. She was a math. genius, and she was really, really. interested in effective altruism. I. think she made a couple hundred grand a. year as a um a quant trader in New York. and donated all but 10% of it to. effective altruism causes. So she was. very dedicated to this. But something.

about Ziz's philosophy grabbed her and. she ended up leaving New York one day, cutting off all contact with everyone. else in her former life and moving to. North Carolina and essentially starting. a new life in this orbit of Ziz. Yeah. So, Maxmillian Snyder was uh a data. scientist, another super super smart. person, and Milo Younglute uh went to an. elite private school in Seattle uh with. Maxmillian Snyder, and they got together. later on after that. And in May of 2024,

uh Young Blute's parent said they're. they're missing. Um I don't know where. they went. They and Snyder applied for a. marriage license together in November of. 2024, which is uh November 5th. specifically, which is Guy Fox night. Mhm. And apparently they all got. attracted to the Zizians just through. online. They never met Ziz. They never. met Gwen Danielson. They never met any. of the other uh rationalist fleet. Zizians at all in person. Yes, that. seems to be contested from what I can.

tell, Chuck, that there's um it's. possible that there's evidence that they. did meet them, but I I don't know who. said what or why, but that's yeah, that's a contested issue. So, um, in. January of 2025, Jungl Bakol, they're in. Vermont, they're a short distance away. from Michelle Zajo's, um, house. So, um, shortly after the. move where everybody was in, um, Chapel.

Hill, Young Blute and Bakolt, um, traveled to Vermont and they stay they. checked into a hotel that was not too. far from Michelle Zashco's house. And um. I thought initially that they were there. to kill Michelle Zashko, but I found. that they uh had made contact with her. enough that the police think that she. bought them some guns or gave them some. guns that she bought. Um I'm not exactly. sure what they were doing in Vermont, but they were eventually they fell under. the radar of the Border Patrol who um.

pulled them over near the Canadian. border. And when that happened, they. were pulled over. Uh at the very least, Young Blute uh allegedly got out and. just opened fire on the Border Patrol. agents. Yeah. They the Border Patrol. said that Bakold attempted to draw a. gun. Uh they fired back. It's basically. a firefight at this point. And uh. Buckold and a Border Patrol agent named. David uh Maland were both killed. Uh. Younglute was injured uh arrested.

obviously on assault charges. Uh, police. found hollowpoint ammunition in their. car, found uh, those burner phones. wrapped in foil. They found fullface. respirator mask. They found a night. vision moninocular. So, it's sort of the. mayhem starter kit in the car. Sure. sounds like it for sure. So, yeah. Again, I'm not sure what they were doing. in in traveling from North Carolina to. Vermont. Um, but this was a this was a. big deal and they killed a border patrol. agent. Especially um when a pair of.

trans uh people dressed in all black. just opened fire on a border patrol. agent and made national news and this is. when um people started to connect the. dots. Not only did you have the attack. of Curtis Lind um a couple years later. as everybody's starting to go to trial, Siri Dao and um Alex Leam are moving. toward trial. Um, Curtis Lind is a star. witness. Um, I guess allegedly to shut. him up. Maxmillian Schneider shows up in.

Viejo and murdered Curtis Lind before he. could testify. Yeah. And this was just. three days before this shootout in. Vermont. So, it's all really coming to a. head very quickly and almost real time. to where we are today. Uh, so on. February 16th of this year, uh, three. people dressed in all black driving a. couple of white box trucks. um all all. of a sudden we're in Maryland. They went. to Maryland uh to a property owner and. said, "Hey, can we camp out here for a. month?" He did not uh take kindly to.

that. So, he called the cops and it. turns out that was uh Daniel Blank uh. Ziz and Michelle Zajko. And they. arrested them initially on trespassing. charges. Uh but they found a bunch of. guns in the trucks and said, "Oh, wait. These are the three people that like you. said, they started really connecting the. dots at this point in February." Yeah. And I couldn't find out what Michelle. Zashko or Daniel Blankro wanted for, but. Ziz was wanted for jumping um bail for. that court case in Pennsylvania. Well,

they were arrested for trespassing. Yeah, but I don't know what they were. wanted for already is what I'm saying. So, that was February. Uh, as of May, late May, last month, couple weeks ago, couple days ago even, you could say, um, Ziz, Michelle Zajko, and Daniel Blank. are all in jail in Maryland for. trespassing. Um, Letham, Dao, and Snyder. are all in jail in California for the. attack on Curtis Lind and then the. murder of Curtis Lynn. And then Young.

Blute is in Vermont for allegedly trying. to draw a gun on the Border Patrol. agents during a firefight where a border. patrol agent was killed. So the um the. Zizians are still like around. essentially. They still will say like. we're not a cult. We're not even called. Zizians. But now there's more and more. journalists who are starting to dig into. it and putting together um deeper and. deeper profiles of this group and what. was going on. But like you said, this is. real time, man. This is there's no.

resolution to this. This this is this is. where it stops because this is as far as. it's gotten so far. Yeah. Uh they're. still writing apparently Daniel. Schneider in jail is writing stuff to. the rationalist group saying, uh, hey, like you still need to focus on animal. rights. And Michelle Zajko is writing, she wrote a open letter to the world, uh, that's in quotes stated March 9th of. this year. and where she was like, "Hey, I didn't kill my parents. Um, Ziz hasn't.

done anything wrong. Um, a lot of these. people, like I don't even know those. other people. I'm not with Maximleian. Schneider. Like, I've never met these. people. They're not um Zizians aren't a. group." Like Josh said. Well, she didn't. say like Josh said. That'd be kind of. fun though. Um, but they're not even. associated with us as a group that we. don't refer to ourselves as Zizians, right? So, Alice Monday and Gwen. Danielson are thought to be alive still. Alice Monday I saw is um thought to be. in hiding that she's very scared of Ziz.

and the Zizians especially now. Um and. then there's other people there's people. in the rationalist community who were. willing to speak to journalists about. this but not not like anonymously. because they're scared of the Ziz too. So it's still a thing even though Ziz is. in jail. Um and it's just a question of. where it goes from here. Uh, but just to. kind of wrap everything up, we'll go. back to Half Moon Bay where the Caleb. was docked in uh the Berkeley Marina and.

uh since the Zizians abandoned it, it. has sunk in the marina, half sunk, and. is a nuisance to have that you have to. get around now. Poor Caleb. Yeah, Caleb's like, "What did I ever do?". Yeah, I just wanted to help people. I'm. a born tugboat. I know. Uh if you want. to know more about this stuff, go look. it up. There's a lot of stuff to read. Um and uh just keep an eye on the news. We definitely will be too. And since I.

said that, I think it's time for. listener mail, Chuck. Uh this is from James. Uh hey guys, I'm. fascinated that terms we take for. granted often come from slurs meant to. suppress and in some cases similar. slurs. I love knowing that pagan came. from a word that as Chuck puts it means. bumpkin. uh it was meant to belittle and. diminish and now it covers a huge chunk. of the faith pie. Uh I was reminded of. the word jaywalking. I feel like we've. talked about this in something. Maybe. the the origins of jaywalking. Maybe.

maybe uh as cars became a thing and. started driving with some velocity in. the places where people were used to. walking. Big car had to make sure they. weren't the bad guy. They had to rewrite. convention and get people uh pedestrians. specifically off the road. So what did. they do? Slurs obviously. Uh if I. remember correctly, J like uh Paganis. meant an uneducated country folk too. stupid not to walk in the road like a. dingus. Uh this word must have worked. because now it is a legal term to. describe the act of crossing a street at. a non-crosswalk. Big car one,

Constantine won. Thanks for the potting. guys and for filling my brain with. stuff. That is James. Uh thanks a lot. James. That's a good one. And uh I think. you joged my memory to an episode about. like how cars became the dominant mode. of transportation in the US. Sounds like. that might have been the one. I think. that was that was a good one. That was a. sleeper episode. Agreed. If you want to. be like James and send us an interesting. email that we may or may not read on the. air, but we'd still like to receive. anyway, you can send it off to.

stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com. [Music]. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].