White Boy Rick | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, [music] a production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff You Should Know. Um, [music] our ongoing fascination with. Detroit edition. >> Yeah, that's right. Uh, this is very. Detroit. [music] I was going to say. adjacent, but it's like firmly in. Detroit. It's not even adjacent. centered even.

>> uh because we're talking about white boy. Rick who if you have not seen the movie. um starring oh god what's the guy's name. who played him. >> Matthew McConna. >> no he played the dad. Matthew McC makes a little more sense. >> older than we are. >> I know I was like did they dress him up. like a teenager. >> yeah how do you play a 14-year-old uh I. can't remember the kid's name but I have. not seen that movie there's also a bunch. of documentaries but in particular one. that's pretty good about this kid in the. 80s, Rick Worsh, who was an FBI.

informant at the age of 14. Yeah. In. secret. >> Yes. And this is completely 100% true. Like, this has been vetted, thoroughly. researched, and his claims, although. they seem like, okay, this is just some. guy talking, you know, who's in prison. just keeping himself from getting bored. Nope. like basically everything he's. ever said about his time as a FBI. informant and a teenage drug runner um. has been has been um confirmed. So, this.

is an amazing true story and it's also a. sad true story in a lot of ways, too, because this guy lost a significant. portion of his life to really stupid. drug laws at the height of the war on. drugs when everybody was so gung-ho. about just lock them up. lock the drug. dealers up and go ahead and lock up the. drug users while you do it, too. Um, and. it was a it was a bad time to be caught. with kilos of coke. I can tell you that. >> Yeah. After he had been um almost.

induced into this lifestyle. >> by the FBI as an informant and then when. that was, as you'll see, when that was. taken away, uh I think it's hard for a. kid to give up that lifestyle because. that's his life at that point. >> Yeah. uh and then you know turned on him. and there was coverups and it was. Detroit. >> Yeah. So I think to describe how the FBI. induced him to do it, you can kind of. say that uh they put a bunch of cash in. his hand. >> Yeah. >> Popped his collar, turned him around by. the shoulders, and shoved him out onto.

the street. That's basically how they. induced him to essentially become a. member of the uh East Detroit drug. scene, like drug supply scene. He was. rolling with like as big as you get. essentially at the time. [clears throat]. >> All right. So, let's go back, I guess, to his birth in 1969. He's close couple. years older than me. And like you said, this was the east side of Detroit. Uh. when he was six, this is Rick Worsh Jr. >> Uh his parents separated. Uh his mom.

moved out to the BBS. And then. generally, he and his sister Dawn lived. with their dad, Matthew McConna, uh. Richard Worsh Senior. >> Mh. And um it was a time where the auto. industry was disappearing and Detroit, you know, the kind of familiar story of. Detroit is that it fell into sort of. violence and and drugs and crack came. along and white flight happened in a big. big way. So Rick and Dawn and their. father were a bit of an anomaly as a. white family that kind of stayed where.

they were on the Detroit's east side at. the time. >> Yeah. And one reason why is because this. was their neighborhood. White Boy Rick's. grandparents lived directly across the. street from him. >> Um, so like these were his dad's. parents. It was like a family community. There were other people who were. sticking around, but yeah, they were um. they were definitely outnumbered by the. people who were moving to town to. essentially take over Detroit. And there. was a a market just ripe for being taken. over. And it was there was this one. group called the Chamber Brothers. They.

moved from Arkansas and became some of. the biggest dealers in town. So much so. that at one point they controlled a. formerly uh opulent apartment building. It was their stronghold headquarters. that they sold crack out of ma. manufactur crack out of. It was a big. big operation and it was just right. there in the middle of Detroit because. this is one of the most lawless times in. the history of that city entire history. Not only was it the drug people, the. cops were about as dirty as they come at.

the time, too. Yeah, for sure. Um, so. Rick's dad was a kind of a schemer. Had, you know, various get-rich uh or make a. little bit of money quick scams going on. here and there. Uh, he worked as a. manager of a gun store as well and. bought and sold guns out of his house, uh, including like taking a son to gun. shows when he was just a kid. Um, but. the result of that was is that his dad. knew and was, you know, uh, had FBI guys.

like as his customers. He had agents. that he was friendly with cuz they would. buy guns from him. And so he ended up. like this was sort of the the entree. into what would end up being um his. son's work with the FBI is that he just. knew these guys as customers. >> Yeah. And one thing I saw um in there. was an Adivist article um that was. really really good, but they basically. said that um that Richard Worsh senior. he was a hustler and he had a. fascination with money. that was his big. focus in life was to make money and his.

son Rick definitely adopted that from. him like he definitely got that from his. dad. So he didn't have a lot of options. to make money at the time aside from the. drug trade but he didn't really get into. that um at least not at first but he was. still doing things like breaking into. houses um and making money that way. So, I mean, like he he was definitely a a. street smart kid, but he just wasn't. involved in in drug trafficking at the. time. >> Yeah. Um, his sister Don um took up a.

crack habit and started dating a guy. named Terrence Bell and Terrence took. and as you'll see a lot of people took. uh White Boy Rick under their wing. Um I. I think he was, you know, I've seen. interviews. He seems like he was a. pretty affable, likable guy because. >> it seems like he made friends everywhere. he went and like had these sort of older. >> um you know, these are rough guys. obviously, but older guys taking him. under the wing and sort of saying like, "Hey, here's how you rob a house. Here's. how you do this." Um and so that's what. Terrence Bell, he was kind of the first. guy to do that. Um taught him how to rob.

houses. Uh taught them how to bust cars. There was this one story where uh. someone stole their family car and they. went after them and Rick at 14 like used. his sister's 22 that she kept in her. purse to shoot at these guys. Uh didn't. hit anybody but it was you know he was. like in the mix at this point. >> for sure. I can tell you that at 14 I. had not ever shot at anybody. Uh, I had. not I had shot a gun because we had a. friend who was a cop.

>> who had a cabin in the mountains and so. he would take us up there to like shoot. target practice occasionally, but that's. that was my only gunplay as a child. >> Right. You never turned it on the guy. >> No, no, no. >> Okay. Yeah. Same here. >> Yeah. >> Um, so let's see. Spring of 1984. Uh, Rick Jr. was 14 at the time and um the. FBI I guess who were friends with uh. Senior Richard Senior were like, you. know, this guy is living in East. Detroit. East Detroit is a hobo of this.

new crack epidemic. Let's go see if this. guy can give us some info because we're. friendly with him. So they showed up at. the worst house uh in East Detroit and. sat down with Worst Senior, Richard. Senior, and basically said, "We just. want any information you can have. we. have a bunch of pictures here. Can you. ID any of these people that we've been. following but don't know who they are? And Richard Worsh um was like, I I don't. know who those people are. I'm sorry I. can't help you. But Rick Jr. piped up.

and he's like, oh well uh this guy is um. Johnny Curry or that guy's big man. Curry. Um and just started pointing. people out and the FBI suddenly was. like, well, how much does this kid know? Let's find out what he can tell us. And. that's kind of where the whole thing. kicked off. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh they were interested. in the Curry twins. Um Johnny was Little. Man and I think you mentioned Big Man. That was Leo. The two brothers. >> Uh even though they were twins, I guess. one might have been a little bigger than. the other. I'm not sure. >> I guess I couldn't make heads or tails.

of that either. >> Yeah. But they were the main drug uh. guys on the east side of Detroit at the. time. And they were also interested, the. FBI, uh, in the Curry gang because, um, Johnny Curry, who was a little man, was. married to Kathy Bolson, now Kathy. Bolson Curry or then, >> who happened to be the niece of the. mayor of Detroit at the time, Coleman. Young. And so, um, you know, we have a. situation building here where there's.

clear kind of, uh, cover-ups and. corruption already happening because the. niece of the mayor is dating like a. known drug guy. >> and the feds are like, you know, we. don't have any allegiance to these guys, so we want to bust them. >> Sure. Exactly. They wanted to take down. the crooked cops, right? So that that. connection between city hall and the. police department and the East Detroit. drug trade all ran right directly. through Kathy Bolson, right? She was the.

thing that connected them. after that, you know, that initial connection, the. the other kind of tethers started to to. to form between those two groups and. before you know it, I mean, City Hall. was and the police department were in. bed with the drug trade in Detroit. pretty quickly. Uh, one of the guys who. was a major player in this, his name was. Gil Hill. >> Yeah. >> He was the homicide commander, the guy. in charge of all homicides in Detroit. And this was a time when Detroit had. something like 700 homicides a year. Now.

it's like 165. Like that is a. mindbogling number of of murders in. Detroit considering also that it's. population had plummeted too, right? >> Yeah. >> This guy's in charge of all of those. His name's Gil Hill and he also popped. up elsewhere too, right? >> Yeah. I mean, strange but true. He was, if you've ever seen uh Eddie Murphy's. great great film, Beverly Hills Cop from. 1984, >> he was the the Inspector Todd. Uh he was.

the one that was always yelling at Eddie. Murphy in Beverly Hills Cop. And uh you. might think, "Oh, that's pretty cool.". That it is pretty cool. But Gil Hill was. not a a a good dude. Uh as we'll see, he. took payoffs and tried to put hits out. on this kid and um yeah, so he was he. was in on the on the bad stuff. >> big time. Big time. And he also seems to. have been an operative for the mayor. from what I can tell. Although I believe. the mayor, nothing ever stuck with him. I don't even think he was ever indicted.

Um he seems to have been well aware of. all this, especially because the person. who the um cops in city hall and the. criminals connected through was his. niece who apparently he raised like a. daughter. >> Yeah. >> So um at the time this kid, he's just. Richard Worsh Jr. Ricky I think. everybody called him. He's 14 and the. FBI is sitting in his living room and. they're starting to show him pictures. now. Not his dad. His dad's just kind of. like, "Okay, son. Well, have a seat and. show these guys what you want or what.

you know." And so, um, being 14, uh, Rick said that he was, um, he was like, "Wow, these really important authority. figures are paying attention to me.". >> Yeah. >> Uh, let's see what I can do. And he just. started pointing people out. And the FBI. said, "We're gonna do something a little. unorthodox." I'm sure that's how they. put it. And made scare quotes and rolled. their eyes at the at the time. >> I think they said wacky. >> Right. Exactly. I've just got the. wackiest idea.

>> Yeah. >> But what if you, 14-year-old Rick, became a federal informant for us, the. FBI? What do you think? Would you like. to do that? And Rick's dad, being the. the amazing father figure that he he. was, was like, "I don't know, son. it's. up to you. You're 14. Do you want to be. a federal informant and put your life on. the line every time you walk outside of. the house? And Rick Jr. said, "Yes, yes, I do." And he actually became an. offthebooks informant for the FBI in.

1984, age 14. >> Yeah. He was a CI. Uh he was not legally. allowed to do something like that, obviously. So the FBI, uh like you said, he kept it off the books. He was never. listed as the informant. Um, but they. had to have something listed. Uh, so. they said, "Well, can we use you, Dad? Uh, can we use your name and have. everything kind of flow through you?". And he said, "Sure, that sounds good to. me." Um, so Richard Senior was approved. in June 1984, uh, technically as the.

informant, but it was really his son. And pretty soon, you know, because I. said Rick was a likable kid and would, you know, made friends easily, he made. friends with a guy named uh Rudell Curry. who was the little brother of the twins, Johnny and Leo. Um, little Boo was 23. years old, and they they became buddies. Like, he was a 23-year-old with a with a. 14-year-old friend who like, you know, it was kind of like, "Hey, Spike. Hey, Spike." Like one of those deals. uh he. had this kid following him around and. like they loved cars and they loved uh.

motorcycles and they loved kind of that. lifestyle and so before you know it they. were fast friends and Buu invited Rick. to hang out um hang out with him like. ride around in the in the car, go to the. roller rink and apparently the Johnny. the one of the twins is the guy who came. up with the name White Boy Rick. >> Yeah. One of the things that I gathered. about a white boy Rick was that even at. 14, 15, 16, he could hang with older. people and ultimately eventually be.

treated kind of like an equal. >> Yeah. >> I mean, which again, like just stop and. think that um like that's just crazy in. and of itself, let alone the fact that. this kid is actually a federal. informant, right? That was his role. That was his purpose for making friends. with Bu Curry and hanging out with the. Curry gang was to get information to. give to the FBI. That's why he showed. up. And he, like you said, he was so. affable and could hang that um they they. opened him they opened their. organization up to him and he would be.

in some really highlevel meetings like. he knew a lot of stuff uh that he he. kind of gathered over the next three. four years. >> for sure. Uh maybe that's a good time to. take a break. What a setup. >> Yeah, I think so. >> Especially if you never heard about this. story. Like, can you imagine hearing. this for the first time? >> I know. I envy those people. >> All right, so we'll be right back after. this and talk about where it's headed. next.

[music]. >> [music]. >> All right. So, little white boy Rick is. hanging out with his his older friends. Um, they're doing bad stuff and he's, you know, he's feeding information to. the FBI that they're using like kind of.

on a smaller scale. Some kind of um kind. of lower level crimes. I wouldn't say. petty crimes, probably above that level. >> Um, but nothing huge. Uh but over a. couple of years um like they are feeding. him money like you said in act one. Uh. like I think they said over the first. couple of years they paid him about. $30,000 off the books um to you know to. use to buy cocaine sometimes and to uh. you know to make sure he could kind of. live that lifestyle. So, before you know. it, little 14-year-old white boy Rick is.

got a fur coat and a and a Rolex and. he's he's he has cars even though he's. 14 years old and can't legally drive. >> Mhm. But he still drove them. He had a. white Jeep and um the snowman was um. stencled on the back. >> Yeah, he's still into cars. >> Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, he has a thing for. cars, it turns out. Um, but yeah, he. made like 30 grand over the next two. years, which is almost a h 100red grand. in today's dollars. Do you remember how.

much money you made between the ages of. 14 and 16? >> Uh, I made 325 an hour as a bus boy. >> Yeah, >> that was minimum wage. >> I estimate. >> So, probably 40 bucks a week or. something. >> Okay. So, I estimated I maybe made. something like the neighborhood of. $2,000 over those those years. >> Oh, okay. This is like. >> So you were hustling too? >> No, I mean I just had jobs here or there. and I think if you put it all together. it would probably equal that over two. years. >> Yeah, probably. So.

>> I mean I think both of us liked having. our own money as kids. >> for sure. >> So we didn't like my parents didn't give. me money. I don't think your parents. probably gave you money either, right? >> Uh I had something of an allowance but. it dwindled the as I got older. Like by. the time I was 30 it was almost nothing. >> Yeah. But like I wanted to buy I wanted. to go to concerts for seven bucks and I. wanted to buy records and uh you wanted. to buy cigarettes. >> I wanted to buy cigarettes. I wanted to. buy Slim Gyms and Twix [laughter]. and Kingsberry non-alcoholic beer. >> It's very empowering to uh make money as.

a kid, you know. I I I think that's not. completely gone away, but I don't think. teenagers have jobs these days like we. did back then. >> No, but you just said a mouthful, Chuck. Just having whatever money you make. What' you say? 40 bucks a week. >> Yeah, probably something like that. You. know, when I was early on, >> right? Okay. And you were empowered by. that by walk by getting that paycheck, cashing it. I got 40 bucks. I'm 15 years. old. Imagine having 10,000 bucks. >> at the end of a week.

>> I would had a Rolex. >> and you're 15 years old. Yeah. But. >> and a snowman Jeep. [laughter]. >> That's how that's how off the rails this. kid's life suddenly got because the FBI. had pushed him into this life and said, "Go, you know, here's some money. Go buy. a mink coat. go buy a Rolex and this kid. could do it. And I mean, just the fact. that he is still alive, wasn't killed. back then. >> and didn't manage to kill anybody or. anything like that, like he kept it. together enough that.

>> like it actually turned out about as. good as it could. >> Although we'll see that it turned out. really rotten. But I don't know. I'm not. quite sure how to put what I'm saying. It just seems like this could have gone. so wrong. Um, so many different ways. just from feeling like emboldened and. powerful and strong from all that money. he had at that really tender age. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, and there was no. one, as far as I could tell, in the FBI. that was like, "Hey, maybe we maybe. shouldn't let this kid do this." No.

>> Cuz he's a child. >> Exactly. Oh, and his dad wasn't saying. that either. So, I want to say the. impression I have of his dad is he was. not a bad guy. and he does seem to. regret a lot of the decisions he didn't. make back at this time. >> Um, so I don't think he was like just a. bad dude who didn't care. He seems like. he was pretty involved in his son's. life. The problem was his son's life. included, you know, driving a a jeep. that said the snowman on back and and. selling cocaine for the FBI.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think the what the. takeaway is is that ultimately his dad. said, "All right, all right, all right.". [laughter]. >> That's right. I'm really curious to see this movie. now. I wonder how McConn plays this. dude. >> I'm sure exactly like you just said. >> because he does not scream east side. Detroit. >> No, he really doesn't. >> Uh, all right. So, you said something. about him avoiding getting killed, which. is fairly remarkable. Um, >> but he did get shot at least once in. November of 84. He was shot in the. stomach by a Curry gang member uh who.

said it was an accident, but Rick was. like initially was like, "Hey, they they. found out who I am. That's why I got. shot." Uh the girlfriend of the guy who. shot him called 911 and before the. ambulance could get there, there were. some other gang members who showed up, put him in the backseat of the car, and. he didn't know like are they taking me. to a hospital? Are they going to take me. out and dump me in the woods? Like. what's going on? And perhaps so had it. not been for that ambulance showing up. and blocking the driveway and saying.

like, "Give that kid to us now.". >> Yeah. He um I guess that had a really. like a big chilling effect. and he was. ready to quit and the FBI showed up at. his hospital room and said, "Just keep. going. They would have killed you if. they actually did know, right? >> Um they they wouldn't have let you go in. an ambulance. You you would be dead. already, so just keep going." And I. guess he was like, "I don't know." And. they're like, "Got 10 grand right here.". And he's like, "All right, you guys, you. know me so well." And he got back to it.

>> Yeah. And not only that, they said, "You. can actually use this, Rick, right? >> Like you got street cred now." and not. many people, especially your age, have. been shot and lived to tell about it. So, like, you're kind of a cool kid now. in that in that gang. And he kind of was. that I mean, it worked out that way. >> Yeah. >> Um I think in February of ' 85 after he. had been doing this a little while is. when they got their first like really. big um raid almost at Sting, but. >> um he had, you know, Rick gave him. information that led to uh about 200. grand in cash when they raided a house.

uh some video equipment. Um obviously a. lot of cocaine and guns, like all the. things you would expect to find. >> I saw they just had two punch bowls full. of cocaine just sitting out on the. table. >> Nice. Punch bowls are big. >> That kind of house. >> That's a lot of cocaine. >> It really is. Um yeah, there was a FBI. agent named John Anthony who um said. that that Rick was the most productive. informant the agency had in Detroit at. the time. The whole city, not just East. Detroit. This is a 15year-old kid. I.

mean, that's a huge bust to get 200. grand in 1985 and punch bowls of. cocaine. So, he had become such an. amazing asset, Chuck, that at one point the Curry gang, bunch. of other big drug dealers from Detroit. were going to see the um Marvin Haggler, Tommy Hearns fight because Hearns was. the pride of Detroit and this was a. title middle middleweight fight, I. believe, in 1985. >> Man, >> the hitman, right? Uh, so all these. Detroit drug dealers were going to watch.

the match and they invited White Boy. Rick and the the FBI got him like a a. high quality fake ID and paid to send. him to Vegas, paid for his plane ticket, paid for his hotel, gave him some. walking around money and said, "Go. 15year-old, go to Las Vegas with a group. of highlevel drug dealers and just find. out what you and and he did. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's kids in Vegas at the.

Tommy Hearns fight. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Uh Yeah. I mean, the story just gets. crazier. Um after he gets back from. Vegas, uh part of the Curry gang, uh. engaged in a driveby shooting, um uh. accidentally killed a 13-year-old boy. named Damen Lucas. >> And the cops basically made this. investigation go away. And Rick was like. I it was starting to kind of dawn on him. uh because of this personal tie that the. Curies had with the mayor that like wait.

a minute like this is now getting. covered up on a large scale cuz they've. killed this kid this 13-year-old couple. years younger than me and Johnny Curry. gave Beverly Hills cop uh guy 10 grand. uh as a bribe to cover it up. And Rick. found out about this. >> Yeah. He was riding around in a car with. Johnny Curry who had the who had Gil. Hill, Commander Gil Hill on um oh, what. is it called when you have it on uh. Speaker? He had him on speaker and they. were talking about covering it up for.

the Curry gang and and he did like that. was a that was a big big turning point. in this whole story, the the murder of. Damian Lucas. >> Yeah, for sure. Um so the FBI, you know, things are getting pretty hairy. They. cut ties with him um just before he. turned 16. Um Richard senior was now off. the books as the um I guess fake. informant in June of 1986. >> And you know it seems pretty clear that. they're probably worried like hey this. has gone far enough. Uh if this gets out.

that we've done this it's not going to. look great for us as feds. And this is. when, you know, I kind of remarked. earlier about how, well, now this kid is. in this lifestyle, >> right? >> Uh, and he's having the the cord pulled. on him, like the rug pulled out from. under him. And so Rick, you know, does. what a kid that age and that, you know, not quite yet fully formed brain would. do, which is, hey, I'm going to keep. doing this stuff. So he got into the. real drug trade after the FBI dropped. him. Yeah, that is um it's disputed.

whether that happened after or before. they dropped him. So like during as he. was an FBI informant and it seems like. it's probably there's a really good. chance that it actually had happened and. that one of the reasons the FBI dropped. him was because his actual drug career. was taking off quite nicely and they. were like we just this kid's getting too. hot. Rather than being like we're going. to bring you in from the cold kid like. we're going to move you somewhere. because you we we did this to you. We. need to give you set you up with a.

normal life. They just walked away like. dusting their hands off and left him to. this life in East Detroit as a what he. eventually became a very prominent drug. dealer. >> Yeah. And you know all the connections. he made were valuable connections as you. know his his leg I don't want to say. legit but I guess he was a legit drug. dealer. >> Yeah. >> Uh one of the guys the main guys who. kind of got him involved was a friend he. made through those connections with the. Curies was a wholesale cocaine guy named. Art Derek. um he was a suburban dude who.

was operating some drug planes uh that. were coming up uh into Miami and Rick. became friends with him and his son and. he, you know, the kid 16 years old now. at this point starts buying as much as. like 50 kilos at a time as a cocaine. wholesaler himself is what they call a. weight man. like he's not he's not. operating a ring of like dealers or. anything like that, but he's bringing in. the large amounts and selling that. stuff, >> right? Which um he auto just by that by.

virtue of that, he automatically made. less money. I saw FBI agent estimate he. was probably making $5,000 off a key, but he was selling tons and tons of. keys. So he was making like really. significant money, but you could also. take a single key and turn it into a. million dollars broken down into like. and convert it into $5 hits of crack if. you were willing to do all that. That's. what the Chamber brothers did. Those. guys who took over the apartment. building, >> they made an estimated $55 million a.

year doing that. >> But I mean, like white boy Rick was. later implicated as being one of the. people who supplied the Chamber Brothers. with their cocaine. like he became a. wholesale coke dealer. That's not. necessarily true, but he definitely did. supply plenty of people with their. cocaine as a wholesale coke dealer. And. one of the things that he didn't do, this to me really stands out. He hung. with the Curries, but he never became a. Curry soldier. He never became a Curry. drug dealer. He had his own operation.

essentially going on where he sold keys. to other people. Um, and he was just. basically an associate of the Curries, which I thought was super cool. like he. just kept his own identity rather than. just being absorbed into the Curry gang. >> Yeah. Well, he uh ended up getting some. of the Curry brothers in trouble just. from all the information they had fed uh. you know the FBI over the years. They. were they were starting to make arrests. I think in ' 87 they indicted the uh at.

least the twins and some other people in. their organization and they pleaded. guilty at the time to drugs and. racketeering. Obviously, uh they kept it. quiet about the city government at that. point. They were still like not selling. out like the mayor and the corrupt cops. and the city was like great, like we. need to keep it this way. Uh and I think. that's when uh we found out about um Gil. Hill, Beverly Hills cop Gil Hill, um. trying to get uh this guy Nate Boon.

Craft to assassinate little white boy. Rick. I think he offered him 125 grand. and he tried to kill him a couple of. times. >> Yeah. You know that you've arrived. If. you're 16 years old and you're not going. to be murdered, you're going to be. assassinated. That means you know a lot. >> And the guy from Beverly Hills Cop was. the one making the call, >> right? Yeah. It's like, who would ever. believe this, right? >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. Um Nate Booncraft later. admitted to trying on two different um.

occasions to to carry out that hit. >> So Rick is uh trying to capitalize on, you know, the Curry's now suddenly being. not completely out of the picture, but. at least some of the main guys being. rounded up and kind of filled the void, the drug void that that was left by. them. And he starts dating Kathy Bolson. Uh she was 24, he was 17. Uh he was. making about 30 grand a month. and has. three kids at this point. >> Yeah. Um I don't know if they were all.

with her. I don't think they were, but. um I think his firstborn, Kesha, was. Um. and the fact that uh Kathy Wolson. started dating him. You said that, you. know, he was a legit drug dealer, as. legit as a drug dealer can be. She. helped legitimize him. Like she is a and. she was especially at this time a big. big deal in East Detroit. And all of a. sudden, like this essentially like East. Detroit royalty, like criminal royalty,

comes down and is like, "I'm going to. start dating you now, white boy Rick.". And she she essentially like just put. that seal of approval on him that that. just kind of really gave him a certain. luster in that area. >> Yeah. And and uh presumably did not get. arrested herself for uh you know, having. sex with an underage kid. >> No. No. I think they had other things in. mind, but even still, she um she would. not have gotten arrested because she had. Detroit PD keeping tabs on her as. protection because the mayor had or.

ordered the DPD to constantly surveil. her to make sure she was okay, not to to. catch her with anything, in fact, to. look the other way on it. So, she could. essentially do anything she wanted to, and it it would have been fine for her, >> for sure. Um, all right. Well, let's. take our second break and we'll finish. up with the saga of White Boy Rick right. after this. Learning things [music].

you should know. [music]. [music]. >> [music]. >> Okay, Chuck. So, the party ends on May. 22nd, 1987. The Detroit police uh decide that Rick. needs to go down. If uh Nate Booncraft. can't kill him, we're just going to do.

it the oldfashioned way and arrest him. and just lock him up. And they found 30. grand in cash uh in in his car. Um, they. also found eight keys of cocaine that. was stashed under a neighbor's porch. that Rick said, "Yeah, that's mine.". >> Yeah. >> He was 17, so he's still a juvenile. And. he got arrested with eight keys and 30. 30 grand in cash. He made bail. And then. a few months later in October, he was. arrested again, this time with 5 kilos. of cocaine, uh, and guns, drug.

paraphernalia, the whole thing. Even. worse, some of this stuff was found in. his dad's house and his grandparents. house, which means they could have gone. to prison, lost their houses. Like they. they really had him. If they didn't have. them in May, they really had him in. October, right? And so around about this. time, the name White Boy Rick becomes. much more widely known, not just in East. Detroit, but in Detroit as a whole and. then very quickly across the nation. because it was such a crazy novelty.

>> Yeah. Yeah, >> that there was this 17-year-old white. kid who was essentially the only white. kid in East Detroit's drug trade and. seemed to be pretty powerful. And in. fact, the media, in particular, Chris. Hansen, um really uh. what's the word I'm looking for? >> I don't know. >> Fraudulently inflated the importance of. White Boy Rick like right out of the. gate just because it was so novel. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, the it's the.

media and that's what the media does. So, they um yeah, it was very. sensationalized. Uh, you know, this. stuff obviously happened, but it's like, hey, let's run, you know, another sort. of injustice basically was like, hey, let's run with this story cuz this is a. kid and it'll, you know, there weren't. clicks at the time, but like uh it'll. get views or whatever on our on our. station and in our newspaper. Um, so it. was a big sort of sensational trial when. he finally uh was brought forward the. following January.

And at the beginning, uh, the feds met. with, uh, Rick and his dad and his mom. are like, "Hey, if you want to testify. and turn states evidence against this, uh, everybody basically, um, you can do. that and we're gonna, you know, we can. help you out." And he was like, "Dude, I. would get killed so fast your head would. spin, so no thank you." Right. Yeah. So, he passed on that. He was like, "I'm. gonna I'm going to see what I can do. with the jury." He actually felt pretty. good about his chances. Um because they.

hadn't found the eight keys on him. They. found it under a neighbor's porch. Like, there were all sorts of extenduating. circumstances. The problem was he had. the full force and weight of Detroit. City Hall and the Detroit Police. Department against him in every back. channel you can imagine in the city at. that time. They were working to get him. convicted as badly as he could be. convicted. Um, the media wasn't helping. Somebody, I think Chris Hansen, again, he started in Detroit. He would go on to. be the to catch a predator guy. Um, they.

showed an org chart which showed all of. the city's biggest drug dealers. Um, and. guess who was at the very top? The. kingpin they portrayed as the guy who. supplied all of the big drug dealers in. Detroit. Why no other than white boy. Rick? Because remember they were trying. to really kind of make this even more. sensational than it already was. So they. they just said, "Well, this guy's. actually the guy. Can you believe that?". And that did not help his chances either.

because he started to be seen as if. there's an a crack epidemic in Detroit. This guy is ground zero for the problem. >> Yeah, for sure. Um they did not disclo. disclose in the trial at any point that. he was a a federal informant that he was. a CI. Um he said later uh like you know. Rick's talked a lot about this over the. years but he later claimed that he was. uh that the lawyers that they assigned. him the public uh defenders were. connected to the mayor who obviously was.

kind of trying to make all this go away. and cover up for everything on his. family side. >> and was like hey lock this kid away. basically and make sure these lawyers. make sure that happened. uh one of those. and you know that hasn't been proven but. this is what Rick said makes a lot of. sense and one of those lawyers that was. on his quote unquote team uh went on to. fight his parole uh in 2003. So that. kind of says it all. >> It really does. Yeah, that's not that's. not good defense right there. Um the.

judge who convicted him said that he was. worse than a mass murderer during his um. sentencing, I believe. And even if the. judge hadn't wanted to do this, she had. um no choice. Um he was given life in. prison without parole at age 17. And the. reason why the judge had no choice is. because. about 10 years earlier, um, Michigan had. passed a law called the 650 lifer law. where if you were caught with 650 grams.

or more of cocaine, which is about 1 and. a2 pounds or a little under half of a. kilo, you got a life sentence without. parole. No questions asked. If you were. convicted of that, you went to prison. for life. And this kid was 17 and got. that sentence and was told that he was. worse than a mass murderer. So things. were not looking very good for him when. he was sentenced after he was convicted. >> Yeah, for sure. It was a period in our.

country where mandatory minimums were. kind of popping up all over the place. Uh for what it's worth, the governor who. signed that one said it was the greatest. mistake of his career. Um probably to. make Rick feel much better. >> [snorts]. >> Uh but um after the trial um Matthew. McConna is giving interviews and he's. you know basically saying like hey we I. we were federal informants. My son at 14. was a federal informant but at this. point like this wasn't disclosed in the. trial or anything. So everyone thinks. it's just this dad kind of ranting this.

crazy talk. Yeah. >> No one's taking him seriously. They. didn't have any kind of credibility. Uh, and in 1991, um, in prison, Rick starts working for. the feds again. From prison, uh, in an. operation, uh, called Operation. Backbone, >> right? One of the, uh, FBI agents who. had worked with him before. I think he. was the first one who turned Rick into. an informant at age 14. His name was. Greg Schwarz. He came to him years later. for this operation backbone and said,

"We've been listening in to the Curries. for years now and we are it's quite. clear that they are in bed with the. Detroit Police Department and city hall. and it's time for us to take him down. We need your help." So he and um Kathy. Volen were they had broken up but they. remained friendly. Uh and she would. visit him in prison pretty regularly. So. because she was the thing that. everything centered on, uh he basically. used her to infect the um the drug and.

city hall connection uh with a DEA agent. or I'm sorry FBI agent who went. undercover and carried out like this. highly successful operation backbone. >> Yeah, it was a big uh they got 11 cops. Um, other people obviously were. arrested, but they got, you know, 11. crooked cops out of that. Um, one of. them was, uh, or I mean several of them. were like kind of in the Mayor Young's. inner circle.

>> I think his favorite bodyguard. um was implicated. His brother-in-law. um, who was uh, Kathy Bolson's father. uh, was implicated and she was even. implicated at first and initially. charged, but the charges on her were. dropped. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, one of the things I. saw, Chuck, that one of the cops, the. Detroit cops, um, did was asked to do as. part of this sting, um, was to carry an. assault rifle around airport security so. that it could be taken aboard a plane to.

be used in a hit in Chicago. And he did. it. Like, that's how dirty the cops. were. And the FBI was the one, they were. the ones setting him up because this. undercover agent has totally infiltrated. this group because white boy Rick. vouched for him over and over again and. introduced him to Kathy Wilson Curry who. kind of tacitly vouched for him, too. It. was about as great of an operation as. you could hope for if you're an FBI. person. The mayor almost came very he. came very close to going down, too. He.

didn't. Um, and yet despite all this. cooperation, despite all the stuff he. had done for the FBI, um, up to this. point, he could not get parrolled to. save his life. >> No, I think, you know, you said it was. about it went about as well as it could. I think it quite didn't because or. didn't quite because they they would. have loved to have gotten the mayor and. they would have loved to have gotten um. the higherups in the police department. Uh, they ended up getting, you know, rank and file cops. Uh, they didn't get.

Gil Hill. Uh they had a literally um. like Rick testified like, "Hey, I heard. a phone call where Beverly that guy from. Beverly Hills cop agreed to cover up. that kid's killing from the drive-by. shooting. >> and he was never charged." So, you know, they did they didn't get the big fish. Uh but they certainly got enough people. I think um this was not too long after. the Marian Barry scandal, smoking crack. as a as a mayor, like a high-profile. mayor. And I think there was a lot of. just like, hey, we don't need another.

scandal of another highprofile mayor in. this country like doing the wrong thing, >> right? So, um, Greg Schwarz actually he, uh, he showed up. He said, "Okay, you. helped us out. It was it was good enough. for us to reward you, so we're going to. move you to a medium security prison in. Florida, and we're going to basically. put you under witness protection under. an assumed name." And while he was there. in Florida, this was. I think up to the 2000s. So, he was in.

Florida for a while. Um, he was just. doing his thing. And remember, we talked. about how much he loved cars. Well, he. was caught running or at least. participating in a car theft ring, a. stolen car ring from prison. He was. helping coordinate the whole thing. And, um, that's tough to do and not get. caught um because eventually your. conversation's going to be overheard or. listened to and you're going to get in. trouble. And that's exactly what. happened. And they got him on. racketeering charges in 2005.

>> Yeah. So that lands him back in Michigan. in prison. And this whole time, white. boy Rick is in prison for, you know, decades at this point. >> Yeah. >> And everyone else that he was uh had. been, you know, associating with was. getting out. Uh Johnny Curry got out in. 99. Uh that hitman that tried to kill. him twice and admitted to murdering 30. people, uh did 17 years and then. cooperated with the cops. um that. mandatory minimum that sent him uh the. 650 lifer that was overturned by the.

Michigan Supreme Court in 1998. >> Uh and everyone else that had been. impacted by that law ended up free. within 6 years, but Rick stayed in. prison. Um he just kept getting denied. parole. I think the first one was in. 2003. Uh he asked like, you know, some of the. feds that he was working with to help. him out and they wouldn't do it. uh one of the guys that he had worked. with, a guy named Herman uh Groman, um. basically was like, "All right, I'll. tell him about Operation Backbone and.

you helped us out with that, but not the. stuff from when you were 14.". >> Yeah. The problem is is like none of. that was ever going to help because. white boy Rick had broken a really big. rule by ratting out on cops. He was. smart enough to not rat out his drug. dealer friends, but he definitely ratted. out on the cops. And the cops went to. great lengths to make sure he stayed in. prison to to make an example out of him. and to punish him too. And so in a. really unusual move, a bunch of Detroit. police officers went to his 2003 parole.

hearing and basically just lied, lied, lied about what a horrible criminal he. was, like what a terrible effect he had. on Detroit. Um, and how he really needed. to stay in prison. And he got denied. Got denied again in 2008. And he got. denied again in 2012, too. >> Yeah. That Greg Schwarz, the the Fed, um, this time actually wrote a letter. saying like, "Hey, um, he did a lot of. stuff with us. Actually, it wasn't just.

Operation Backbone." Um, that Damen. Lucas murder, he he tried to help us out. with that, that 13-year-old kid who got. killed. and he said, "You know, we never. disclosed this stuff because it he was a. kid and we would have been exposed and. embarrassed that the federal government. was working with a kid in this. capacity." They rejected that one, too, even though he finally had someone. willing to vouch for him, >> right? >> Uh and until 2013, there wasn't a lot of um I mean, aside. from just, you know, the earlier time. when he actually got sent to prison, it.

had really quieted down about, you know, White Boy Rick. Like, no one kind of. knew who he was. And then in 2013 that. um there was a guy named Seth Ferranti. who was an incarcerated journalist. He. wrote a column at the fix that reported. a lot of this stuff and then that was. picked up um by Evan Hughes who wrote. that Adavis article in 2015 that you. were talking about that we read. >> Great. >> Um and that was like that was it. All of. a sudden it was fully out there um like. he didn't even get to go to his dad's. funeral. His dad died while he was in.

prison. >> and he has like six grandchildren at. this point in his in his 40s which is. remarkable and he's like not met these. kids at this point. >> No. Um so one thing that makes it like. really kind of gets across how um how. just under the thumb of of the Detroit. Police Department this kid was still. decades on. um a judge, Judge Dana. Hathaway, I think she was the original. judge in his um in his trial. She threw.

out the life sentence as a judge, right? This wasn't something she did in her. leisure time. Like she officially threw. out his life sentence and um prosecutors. appealed and won. So he had his life. sentence like was upheld uh what 30. years later. And um Haway even went on. the record saying that this whole thing. was very fishy. Finally, two years. later, he's granted parole. This is 13. years after the last person who was.

given a life sentence under that. Michigan 650 lifer law had already been. led out. He was the only one. His his. incarceration continued for 13 more. years. He got out in 2017, age 47. And. you would think that would be the end of. the story, Chuck, but it was not, was. it? >> Uh no. uh he gets that parole. >> and um probably or at least maybe had. something to do with those movies that. we were talking about. >> uh the documentary and the Matthew. McConnA movie.

>> Um cuz certainly high-profile enough to. like bring his name back into the. forefront and then people start asking. questions and stuff like that at the. feds. >> Um but he had to stay or I guess got. reentenced um from the prison sentence. in Florida for that stolen car stuff. So, he's back in jail in Florida. He. was, you know, bouncing back and forth. Uh, finally released from there in July. of 2020. I think he was 51 at the time. and was like, "I need some money. I need. some restitution." And he sued the feds. Uh, of course, and it he didn't get.

anything. >> No. The the judge said the statute of. limitations had run out in 2006. And. he's like, well, I couldn't really say. anything while I was in jail because I. would have gotten beaten up on a daily. basis by the guards. And they said, "Sorry, pal. like none of your your very. legitimate suits against the federal. government are going to be able to be. tried. So. >> yeah, >> um apparently he's working on his own. documentary project about his life too. with the hip-hop director Hype Williams. >> Yeah, I worked with Hype uh back in the.

day. >> Oh yeah. Is he related to Freedom. Williams? >> Uh I have no idea, but Hype was one of. the biggest names in the game back then. >> Oh yeah. >> And I'll tell you off mic. >> Okay. I can't wait to hear this. I can't. wait to hear this. >> Uh, okay. Well, since I want to hurry up. and end this episode because I want to. hear what Chuck has to say about Hype. Williams, I think it's time for listener. mail. >> Uh, instead of listener mail, we're. going to give issue one last, well, not. one last, but another reminder about our.

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