What we know about MI6 | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart. Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and there's. Jerry and this is Stuff You Should Know. And I have to say, we didn't have the. most auspicious start just now, Chuck. I. stepped on you at the countdown for us. to sink. That's not a good sign. Don't. you think that's not a good sign? I.

think if you look at it another way, we. were in sync because we were both kind. of trying to say the same thing. That. Wow, that was a silver lining. How's. that? There's not been any better in. sync since Lance Bass and Justin. Timberlake were running around together. Uh, we should preface this, by the way. We're doing an episode today on MI6, the. uh, United Kingdom's Secret Intelligence. Service. Is that how you pronounce it? Am I six? What do you say? Mix.

That's what I've been saying in my head. at least. Oh no. Yeah. Uh that is an. inospicious beginning then for sure. Uh. but. uh you know this is a. little it risk being a little disjointed. because if you kind of went down every. rabbit hole that we speak about here, we'd be here for days. Oh yeah. One of. the things that lets us off the hook. though that I found and I'm sure Kyle. who helped us with this um we had our. man in Britain to make him an agent and.

us officers. That's right. Because he. was giving us intel on MI6. Um if you go. and just start researching it, especially if you just type in MI6, they've done a pretty good job of. keeping search results pretty sanitized. Yeah. Like I would say out of the top 20. results um two are not official MI6. pages. So it's kind of hard to research. them especially considering they've only. been publicly recognized as actually.

existing since the mid9s. Yeah. 1990s. that is uh they were the they are the. oldest um operating continuously that is. operating foreign intelligence gathering. organization anywhere in the world. And. like I said, they they're, you know, if. you're American, you can think of MI6 as. sort of their CIA. Um, and in fact, our. own CIA was born out of not out of MI6, but they had a lot to do with how we did. things. Yeah, we used them as a kind of.

a model. Yeah, there you go. That's a. very clean way to say that. Um, so. there's two things that MI6 does. Um, and that really does kind of get it. across. They're like the Britain's. equivalent of the CIA or better yet the. CIA is America's equivalent of MI6. So. they gather intelligence and they gather. it internationally abroad. There's also. MI5 which you could say is roughly. equivalent in the US to the FBI. They do. domestic stuff, but MI6 is concerned. about everything else in the world. And.

by gathering intelligence, they usually. use two methods or they they gather yeah. two methods. One's human intelligence, which is good oldfashioned spying, using. people who are secretly spying on their. own governments or whatever, and then. the other's signal intelligence, which. is intercepting communications. And I. saw that um another intelligence um. firm, I guess, in the UK, the government. communications headquarters, GCHQ. They. seem to do most of the signals.

intelligence while MI6 still does most. of the human intelligence. Yeah. But I. think like if they they capture an email. or something, they don't just delete it. because they don't do signals. intelligence. They're still going to use. it, right? Not my office. Delete, right? Not. my job. We call them MI6. The official. name, like I said at the beginning, uh. is the Secret Intelligence Service or. the SIS. Um, that's what they became in. 1920, but we call it MI6 because that.

was the call sign that they adopted in. World War II. And, you know, let's be. honest, people hear MI6 and they. identify it with intelligence a lot. because of Ian Fleming and James Bond. and Lar and Smiley, a couple of um, you. know, in James Bond's uh, case maybe. thinly veiled um, literary figures. I'm. not sure about Smiley. They don't know. much about Lar. Is it Smiley based on. someone that you know of? I don't know. I My dad was big time into um John Lar,

but I never have been. Is it Lar? I. don't know. I've heard it. I think it's. probably both ways. I mean, unless. you're his mom. I'm sure there's just. one way to say if you're his mom, but. you know, he's dead. He doesn't care. How about Lee Carrie? No. Perfect. Uh but if like you said earlier, you. know, it's kind of challenging to gather. intelligence on MI6 as a podcaster. because for the longest time, they would. just destroy any documents they had.

that, you know, weren't still useful to. them. They weren't like, "Hey, let's. keep this on file because one day. somebody might um um ask for this and. maybe want to see it." They'll be like, "No, we don't need that anymore and. we're a secret organization, so let's. just uh throw it in the old burner." And. in the 1960s, they started officially. keeping historical records. And then. eventually in the 2000s, for their 100th. anniversary, they hired a guy named. Keith Jeffrey to write its history up to.

1949. Yeah. And apparently, even still. today, that's where their official. history ends. 1949. Anything after that, don't ask, Jack, or else they'll take. you somewhere and and render you. Yeah. Politely. They will. Um, so we should probably say. that MI6 started and I think we when we. did our Kim Philby episode, Yeah. I said. that MI6 stood for the Ministry of. Intelligence, but it actually is. military intelligence, which is, I. think, like you said, what it grew out.

of originally, but the whole thing. started, there was a scare, a German spy. scare in Great Britain in the turn of. the last century. Um, Germany was this. imperial power that was rising. So there. was reason to be scared of them, but. really the whole reason came down to. this guy named William Lechu. Um he was. a totally madeup adventurer um soldier. of fortune who was just as patriotic as.

you could get. He made up this huge. backstory for himself to give himself. legitimacy, but really he was just. weaving these yarns saying essentially. that Britain is sleeping right now and. it's loaded with German spies and if we. don't wake up, we're going to get taken. over by Germany. And it just hit this. perfect nerve in the British public. So. much so that it directly led to the. formation of what would become MI6 and. MI5. Yeah. all in unison they heard this.

and went well we can't have that. So. they got going. Uh the Secret Service. Bureau is who originally housed uh both. including MI5 and they were pretty. important you know aka the bureau known. as the bureau uh because they had. complete autonomy and they also had. plausible deniability. So, they would. sort of act as a go-between. If there. was a a government official um doing. some, you know, spy business, uh the. bureau could step in and kind of provide.

cover as a screen for them. Yeah. And. apparently, even though they they are. now publicly acknowledged by the. government as existing, that hasn't. changed very much still today. Like they. do not you can't as a government. official go to MI6 and be like I demand. these records of your torture program in. the Iraq war. Right. They'll just say we. don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. You we're not even having this. conversation. And that's that's what. they don't have the kind of political.

and legal hamstringing that the CIA has. It's much less of a bureaucracy. And so. they can do things that say like the CIA. legally couldn't do. They have a lot of. legal cover in Great Britain. Yeah. I. wonder what their version of FOYA is. Like a Freedom of Information Act. request or even if they even have that. or if they're just like, "Sorry, don't. ask." Yeah. They just call it FO, right? Oh boy. I wish that was a Man, if we had.

written that out as a comedy duo, it. couldn't have been more perfect. Thanks. I think we did really good, too. Yeah. Uh so let's talk a little bit about. their first chief uh Sir Mansfield. Uh it was pretty much a. oneperson show at the beginning of the. operation and was that guy uh. staffed fully, you know, with gentlemen. as they called him. If you were a woman. at the time, uh you might get work as a. typist or a secretary, but although that. would change in not too long after like. 50 years. Yeah, exactly. I guess so. Uh.

but he was sort of a the kind of guy you. you would make a movie about. He was a. race car driver. He was a pilot. Uh he. could drive a boat with a plum. Um he. loved uh spycraft. He was he got into. it. He signed off his C for his last. name. He apparently he wrote in green. ink which uh his successors have. continued doing today writing in that. green ink. And they're all called C too. It's the it's the title for the chief of. MI6. Yeah. Exactly. And they um it was.

like like M and Q like all those things. from James Bond like most of those. things are real. They use uh numbers and. letters and it's not just made up for uh. fictional purposes. No. And Q that was. the scientist who would come up with all. these amazing devices and gadgets and. everything. And as we'll see MI6 has. gotten way more talkative publicly. They're trying to like kind of recruit. more and more people. So, they're. giving, you know, interviews even though. their names are anonymous. Um, and one.

of them said like the we have those. gadgets, but they're even better than. what James Bond has. Like, really? Yeah. So, this guy coming, he uh had an incident in 1914 where he. earned um this probably sounds like lore. to me, but um he had a car crash in. France in 1914. Very sadly, his son was. killed. And this is how he lost his left. foot. And the reason the lore was so. important was because the legend was the. only way he escaped was by amputating.

that foot himself. Uh sort of like uh. who was the guy in real life that they. made that Danny Bo made the movie about. that was stuck in the rock. I don't. remember his name but yeah. Yeah. But. supposedly he you know as the story goes. he cut off his own foot with a pin knife. just to escape. I think just the fact. that people that that became a legend. around him says a lot about who he is. Oh totally. If I were in a car wreck and. I lost my foot, no one would create a. legend that said I cut my own foot off. with a pen knife to escape. Like it just.

you just wouldn't make that up. No one. would believe it. This guy at least it. was believable. Yeah. Legend had has it. Josh wailed and cried for hours until. the ambulance finally arrived and they. said, you know, you could probably just. have backed out of this thing on your. own, right? And they're like, it's. really just gonna bruise is all right. Um, so there's one other thing. There's. there's a lot to talk about. Like you. said, the guy could definitely deserve. his own movie if it hasn't been made. multiple times already. But one of the. other legendary things associated with.

him is like he was really into spycraft. Like he came up with disguises. He would. like disguise himself and go walk around. London and see if any of his people. would recognize him. Um, and he was I. don't want to say obsessed, but he was. really into the idea of invisible ink. and he searched high and low to find a. good invisible ink that couldn't be. detected through standard methods. I. don't know who came up with this idea, but somehow it came around that seaman.

uh can be used very effectively as an. invisible ink. And I saw that the. somebody put it the supply is renewable. Yeah. So he must have just searched high. but not low, right? Yeah. Renewable. Uh there there's some I. mean it gets a little grosser. Should we. even cover this in more detail? Yes. Okay. Uh apparently he had a colleague. that reported about uh the man in uh one. of our men in Copenhagen uh stocked it. in a bottle for his letters and it stank.

so bad that they had to tell him that uh. a fresh operation was necessary for each. letter. Wow. Yeah. We had to say that. And he. said no. problem. He Yeah. Exactly. Wow. Thank. you. Exactly. Uh so you want to take a. break or you want to dive into World War. I era? Let's take a break. That's a good. little table setting. So we'll come back. and talk about uh talk about World War I. right after this. [Music].

[Music]. So, by the time World War I rolled. around, uh, what was it? 1911, I think. I'm sure I'm wrong, and we're going to. get a bunch of emails, but let's just.

say for sake of argument, it was 1911. This is just a couple years after the. the bureau was formed, and um, Sir. was, you know, running around. doing his thing. Um but by this time. he'd Yeah. writing letters with. invisible ink all over the place. Yeah. Um by this time though he cultivated. some some sources already in Germany. He. had one guy named uh be he was C and. this this this first source was B. Um.

who would report on you know comingings. and goings on the coast and the harbor. and their ship sizes and how many ships. were in their fleet. Um, and although. they totally dropped the ball on Germany. invading neutral Belgium, which was a. big deal, Yeah. they still managed to. give them a lot of like really important. intel that basically proved um the idea. that that Britain could really use a MI6. or something like it. Yeah. I mean, it. seemed to be the way I read this was.

like these are just sort of the baby. steps. um they didn't have like kind of. the authority they would have later on. and they were kind of sussing out how. valuable they might be. Um so they were. just sort of getting established um. after World War I was when they were. fully established as the SIS. Um but. they were, you know, they were. monitoring Russia um trying to keep them. in the war. They were like, "What are. the Americans thinking right now? What's. going on in the Oval Office because we'd. like to bring them into the war." Mhm. And they were doing yman's work, you.

know, uh providing, you know, the kind. of stuff you would see in like um the. Great Escape, even though that was World. War II. Like if you're a P, you might. get a map and a compass smuggled into. you. Um stuff like that, trying to foil. uh bombing plots and things like that. So they were like like, you know, what. do you think of us now? How are we. doing? And apparently good enough to be. official after the war. Yeah. So by the. time the inner war period comes along, the 20s, 30s, um they well there are some more.

legendary people. This is a time where. it was just like the wild west in Great. Britain as far as spycraft and. intelligence goes. And there's this one. guy who's definitely worth mentioning. He was a early um agent. And we should. say u most people call anybody who would. be working for MI6 an agent. With the. CIA, you'd be correct. with MI6, you'd. be wrong. An agent, as far as MI6 is. concerned, is one of those sources who. has turned turn code on their country.

and is supplying uh MI6 with secrets. Right. That's an old agent. Yeah. Or. just a plain old agent. A double agent. would be somebody who is actually spying. for their country but posing as a spy. for MI6. This is just a plain old agent. Officers are the people who are. employees of MI6 that run and handle. agents in the field. Right. So that. would make Sirill Bertram Mills an. agent. Correct. Yes. That's what I was. getting to. All right. So before uh.

World War II, this guy was a circus. director and he ended up working for MI6. for about four decades. Uh known only to. his family um you know for doing this. work. Uh because as a uh circus. director, he could get in a little. by-wing plane and he could fly all over. the place under cover of doing circus. business. Um I don't think he was like. standing on the plane and eating a. banana like on the wings of the plinery. like doing tricks. Mhm. But he had to.

get around as a as a circus guy and this. was pretty good cover and he had some. pretty dangerous uh missions with these. flights as well, right? Yeah. Um there's. uh a couple where he was giving like MI6. like really valuable intelligence from. flying over like aircraft factories in. Germany. Um apparently there was a one. particular piece of information uh or I. guess a bunch of information that really. formed a good picture of the size of. Germany's Luftwaffa, their air force.

And um Winston Churchill apparently used. that to decide whether he was on the. side of appeasing Hitler or fighting. Hitler. And I guess because of the. buildup of this air force, he was like, "We can't let this guy keep continuing. We So he was against appeasement thanks. largely to Bertram Mills intel that he. was directly giving him." Yeah. And this. was, you know, this is dangerous work. He wasn't just flying around. And I. think in 1936, uh, which was the year he. started, the Nazi courts, um, executed.

by decapitation, usually with an axe, uh, six spies that were caught. So, he. had a lot on the line as a circus. director, but he was doing it for, I. guess, love of country. Yeah. And a. circus director is understating it. He. was known as king of the modern circus. Like, he was a really big deal outside. of his spying activities. It would have. astounded anybody who had ever heard of. him that he was a spy. Yeah. I think. circus director fit better on a card. than king of the modern circus. Right.

Probably. He and he was an understate. guy. You know, he didn't he wasn't. playing buoyant. No. There you go. Um. Yeah. It would have been one of those. things where it starts out normal, but. as it gets closer to the edge of the. card, they start cramping letters. together. Like a poster made for. elementary school, right? For the. science fair. Exactly. What happens with. vinegar and baking soda? Yeah, I still. do that sometimes when I have I don't. I'm not great at spacing like that. It. has to do with uh your brain, I think. Spatial awareness and stuff. Yeah, I'm.

not that good at it either. Don't worry. All right, good. So, um for a long time, not a lot happened and then World War II. broke out. Um and World War II, by this. time, remember MI6 had proved its medal. and worth in World War I. you had a. whole decade or two where it just kept. proving its worth. Um, and so by the. time the the war broke out, you would. think that that they would be totally. ready for this, but I don't know if it. caught them off guard or they were just. allowed to um kind of be pruned in in.

peace time. I don't know. But it took. them a minute to get their footing and. regenerate um. intelligence networks in Europe. uh but. they apparently got their footing fairly. quickly and were very successful in in. basically generating a lot of. intelligence coming out of different. countries including occupied countries. in Europe during World War II. Yeah, it. it seems like that was the slower part. Um where we know they did a lot better.

was at uh Bletchley Park with their. signals intelligence. Um you know, we. talked about the code breaking and Allan. Turing and the uh what was it? Enigma. machine. Yes. That's right. Some great. episodes from our distant past. But they. were they were kind of crushing it over. there. Um they did finally during this. period start to have some uh women. working there that were not just. secretaries. Um there was there was one. overseen by a woman named Kathleen. Pedigrew uh communications at least.

between home and field agents. Uh she. was very proud of her work and said I. was basically Miss Money Penny but with. more power. Yeah. She was the chief at. the time's secretary and he imbued her. with enough power to run a program. So a. lot of people say she was probably the. inspiration for Ian Fleming's Miss Money. Penny who James Bond used to like to. flirt with. I think a lot of people from. this age were like I'm basically M or. I'm Q or I'm Miss Money Venny, right? My. dad used to go around telling people he.

was Q. Are you serious? No. Oh, I would have been so embarrassed. Uh, well, see, that was a tough one. I'm. giving myself a break there because I. believe in almost anything you tell me. about your dad. Yeah, it's true. The. herbal Elvis. Yeah. Yeah. And speaking. of Q, um, it turns out that so they they. were they did kind of develop devices, like you said, figuring out ways to hide. compasses and maps to get to PS in World. War I. But the idea of their research.

and development and technology branch. that produced someone like Q that we all. who know the James Bond movies are. familiar with that actually came from. them absorbing a rival agency that was. developed in World War II that MI6 did. not like one bit at first. The special. operations executive or the Ministry of. Ungentlemanly Warfare. Yeah, it seemed like, and I may just be. like uh teenage boying this thing, but.

it seemed like they got under MI6's skin. because they got to do more fun stuff. Yeah, for sure. Like kind of more. dangerous ops went to them and MI6 were. like, you know, we've been around a. while and these are they I think they. thought of them uh the way Kyle put it. as dangerous amateurs, but then they. started saying, but you got to take us. along at least. Well, yeah. I mean, they. definitely did have their fun stuff. curtailed because MI6 had a a department. called D section and D stood for.

destruction. Like, they were supposedly. perfectly capable of doing sabotage. I. don't know enough about World War II. British military history to understand. why they felt a special operations. executive was needed or if somebody just. managed to have enough power that they. developed their own thing and it just. became the SOE. I don't know. But um. eventually MI6 prevailed especially. after World War II and they absorbed the. special operations ex executive. including a lot of their really. interesting useful stuff like their.

research and development group that. produced people like Q. Yeah. I got the. feeling, and maybe we'll get a a real, you know, British history buff that can. let us know, but it sounded to me like a. Church Hill directive kind of like, uh, I know we've got our our section D in. MI6, but we need a really super secret. special sabotage team. and like let's create one, right? Everybody was waiting for that last. part. Yeah, that's kind of what it. sounded like. Um, but back to Q, that.

was based again on a real uh person. Uh, and I think we said, but Q stands for. quartermaster. And this guy was Charles. Frasier Smith. And he was the one that. made like literal miniature cameras. inside cigarette lighters and steel. shoelaces to to choke someone out with. Yeah. Go. Uh, a cigarette holder. telescope. Uh Kyle said that these. weren't as um were a little more humrum, but I think a a bulletshaped um device.

to stick up your butt that holds vital. information maybe humrum, but it's. pretty useful. I'll bet it doesn't feel. humrum going in. Yeah, it depends on. what kind of bullet, too, for sure. Um. yeah, so I mean that there's a lot of. what we understand about MI6 and like. the movies and all that. It it does. apparently bear some resemblance because. I don't know if we said or not, Ian. Fleming worked for MI6 during uh the. during World War II. So, he had. firsthand knowledge about all this.

stuff, which is why there are real life. people who these characters were based. on. So, our understanding of what MI6. does and has at its disposal and the way. it runs is not that far off. But one of. the big differences I saw was um the. idea of a lone loose cannon running his. own operations out there is totally. incorrect. It's just backwards. I've. seen um current employees say like that.

guy wouldn't even make it through the. door. Like he would get vetted out so. quickly that that he wouldn't even have. a chance. Um you need somebody who's not. a loose cannon. Yeah. And you um rather. than solo missions, apparently it's all. teamwork. Yeah. And it's not one person. coming up with one giant piece of. information like there's a super villain. who's created a um a a layer at the. bottom of the sea that he's going to. shoot nuclear missiles from. That. usually doesn't come up in one big. package. It takes thousands of people to.

work together to piece little pieces of. information and then go back and double. check and triple check with other. sources whether those pieces of. information are correct. And then. eventually you create a whole picture. and you hope hope that it's true and. accurate. Yeah. And you hope there's a. secret layer, right? With like trained. sharks in a moat that you can get a. membership to. Yeah, exactly. Uh so. speeding along up to the cold war. Um we. are now at a place where like the USA.

the cold war was was dominated in MI6 by. uh by the Soviets and communism, the. spread of communism. Uh agents, double. agents, secret agents, triple agents. They were they were doing the same work. we were. Um they partnered up with the. CIA in 1948 uh again which was modeled. on MI6 and they were trying to sort of. at this point balance intelligence. uh with covert actions because it wasn't. like an act of war. So they had to.

approach it differently. Uh and they. said that at the time there were a. couple of different types of um I guess. what officers working there. Yeah. Almost said agent. Mhm. Uh but Moscow. men um who are apparently very careful. and uh you know gathering that. intelligence and then camel drivers who. were people they would send in to like. on the ground in the field at a local. place to uh ally themselves uh with. locals to maybe mount an insurrection or. something like that. Yeah. And I'm.

guessing the camel drivers came from the. special operations executive heritage. because that's exactly the kind of. guerilla warfare the S so SOE engaged in. in in World War II. So I'm guessing. that's how that survived into the the. Cold War. Yeah. And of course because. it's the Cold War, a lot of the the. intelligence that these Moscow men were. gathering was like, "Hey, uh we're not. at war, but in case something happens, we know that they've got these. airfields. they've got this many tanks, this many soldiers on the ground that.

could move here in this amount of time. Um, so, you know, it was sort of a. readiness operation at that point. Yeah. And not just like, okay, we we they have. a huge stockpile of these weapons. The. the opposite could be just as valuable, too. Like, actually, they don't have. that many missiles, so all this bluster. about them blowing the UK into the ocean. is actually full of hot air, so we don't. need to be quite as scared about it. Yeah, good point. Yeah. And that's I. mean that's really important too, but.

like you said also I mean they got. caught maybe a little offguard with. World War II. I get the impression that. they didn't let that happened during the. Cold War. They were still keeping up. with the Soviets um like capabilities. I. think what else made it easy too was you. had one nation really to spy on the. Soviet Union as a whole. It was massive. and it's it was made up of what are now. a bunch of independent nations. But at. the time you had one big enemy rather. than today where you have like um. terrorism, non-state bad actors. You.

like it's just much more dilute. Whereas. before it was like those guys, those are. our enemy. That's who we need to spy on. Yeah. Train all ears toward Moscow. basically. Yeah. So they were also still. recruiting um intelligence officers, you. know, to to use on their side. Mhm. Um, and this is, did I read this right? The. KGB, their acronym MICE stood for money, ideology, coercion, and ego. Were they. identifying people uh within uh their. own ranks that might be, you know,

susceptible to being turned? I'm sure. you could apply it to that, but the. impression I had is that was just how. they decided if somebody was worth. approaching to recruit as a spy for. them. Oh, okay. But it could cut both. ways. It would apply. Yeah, for sure. So, um, if you're recruiting people, that's one way to do it. You can flatter. them, make them just be like, "This. person clearly wants to feel like. they're important or helping their. country or something like that." Um, you. can have um stuff to blackmail them.

with. Apparently, MI6 is more than. willing to blackmail agents into working. for them. Bribery is another one, too. That's how a lot of very famous and. prolific spies have been brought on to. being a spy is just getting paid. Although in the end when you when. they're being executed you're like you. did all this for $300,000. Really? Yeah. You know, it just never quite adds up. and it's like and also it's like. $300,000 over like 12 years or something. like that. It just I never quite get it.

So maybe there's like they're really in. it for the thrill. The money was just. the extra bonus. I don't know. Yeah. They'd be like, "Why don't you just try. scratch off tickets, right? If you want. to make 40 grand a year for the next 15. years, right?" Um, and then another. gambit is called the. dangle. It's not dirty. It's just this. way of getting somebody to spy for you. Oh, okay. Or actually, it's a way of. creating a a double agent like you were. talking about. So, that's when you. recruit somebody but for the purposes of.

exposing them. Right. So, a dangle is. where you um say like you you have. somebody in Moscow that you've turned. into an agent for you. You try to make. them attractive to say the KGB. Ah. To. recruit them as a spy. So now you have a. double agent working inside. Okay. And is that who is that how they. got Oleg uh Pinkovski? I don't know. He came to them. No, he he. came to them. He became disillusioned.

with the Soviet Union and he's like, I I. think I'm going to start helping the the. UK. Oh, okay. Because he worked with. both MI6 and CIA. Mhm. And again, this. is during the Cold War. So, he was one. of the key players in sort of getting or. I guess getting and giving information. on uh Soviet missiles in Cuba during the. Cuban missile crisis. Yeah. Which is. pretty useful as a matter of fact. Um. yeah, he was hugely helpful just over. like 18 months and then he was caught. and executed. But I think at that time.

he he gave up 5,000 photos of Soviet. documents to MI6. Yeah. And you know, you mentioned the. CIA earlier having sort of more. um legal hands being tied than they do. uh apparently in the Cold War uh and who. knows maybe this still happens today, but if there was a CIA officer that uh. couldn't get something done uh on the. down low that was maybe unoured or. violent or illegal, they could call MI6.

and say, "Hey, we can't get this done. Uh could you?". And they say, "Yes." Yes. Wait, can you. say I can't do a very good British. accent? Yes. That was Murray from New. Zealand again. Yeah. almost always is. Oh well. Um, so I say we take a break. and we come back and talk about one of. the most thrilling moments in MI6. history. [Music].

[Music]. Are you talking about Oleg Gordivki? Yes, that's exactly who I'm talking. about. A KGB colonel. That's right. Uh, apparently this guy and this is how you. can, you know, get someone on your side.

from the at least at the time from the. that side is if they really like Western. culture. Yeah. The Kowabanga lifestyle. Yeah, if they're like, I really like um. I don't know, American sports and music. and fashion, then that could be enough. And apparently uh he was on assignment. in Copenhagen and they were like, "This. guy loves Western culture and he might. be worth, you know, getting in touch. with." And sure enough, it actually. worked. I don't know where they'd fall. in the mice acronym, money, ideology,

coercion, ego, taste, maybe ideology, and ego. I don't know. I'm not sure. But. yes, he he he definitely turned um but. he was caught. He was found out. So he. was he became the station chief or uh. working out of the embassy as a KGB. agent um in London. So he was able to. actually kind of easily pass secrets to. the Brits um because he was there. already. He was found out by Aldrich.

Ames um who was a famous American trader. who spied for the Soviets in I think the. 80s or maybe even into the 90s. Um and. he told them about Gordivki spying for. the Brits. Um Gordi was not immediately. jailed which is weird. He was definitely. taken back to Moscow and held like. basically under surveillance. Mhm. But. he was going to be jailed. he was going. to be executed. Yeah. So he started um.

what had been planned seven years before. and named Operation. Pimlo. And by by standing in a Moscow. bakery or outside of a Moscow bakery. holding a a plastic Safeway bag, he was. signaling MI6 like, "Get me out of here. right now." Yeah. And he said, "How am I. going to know if you've gotten the. message?" And they says, "Well, how. about this? a man's going to walk by you. carrying a Herod's bag. And then he. said, "That could be anybody, right?".

And he said, "All right, how about this? Carrying a Herod's bag and eating a Mars. candy bar, right?" And he said, "I guess. that narrows it down enough." Yeah. Which is really showing off because I. think you could trade a Mars bar for a. car in Moscow in 1985. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's a good point, actually. At least. that's what they told us in school. Yeah, exactly. They don't have toilet. paper either, right? Uh so he evaded. surveillance. uh was making a run for. the Finnish border and MI6 grabbed him. and put him in a car trunk. Uh but they.

have like, you know, sniffing dogs, inspecting cars and things. So they had. the brilliant idea to change a poopy. diaper on the trunk of the car that he. was uh stuffed inside and apparently it. worked. Yeah. Those dogs were like, "Oh. god." And just went back to their post. No thank you. Yeah. Isn't that amazing? So then they they got him across the. Finnish border. Finland is neutral and. he was safe. But I mean like that is. real deal spy stuff, you know? Oh yeah, for sure. Like holding a Safeway bag,

that's awesome. The Mars bar, I love. every part of that. So he actually he. was actually tried in absentia and. sentenced to death by the Soviet Union, but he had defected to the UK and they. protected him and he died an old man, I. think age 86 last March at his home in. in Great Britain. Incredible. Yeah. They. never got a hold of him. No, but one. thing that we really should say, and I. was kind of touching on it earlier, one. of the really valuable things he.

provided was he could understand the. state of mind of the Soviet government. and Soviet military. and he fed this. information to the UK, to MI6 who turned. around and said, Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, you guys need to tone. down this evil empire rhetoric because. you are scaring the Soviets so bad. They're plotting a a first strike. because they think you're going to. strike out of nowhere. So, you actually. might trigger a first strike from the.

Soviets if you keep talking like this. And as a result, they really dialed it. back quite a bit. Yeah. He said, he. said, "Have you seen more games?" Yeah. He's like, "That could happen." In that. sense, he kind of saved the world. Yeah. I think that's great. Yeah. I think. saving the world is totally great. I'm. all for it. Uh, if we're talking about. modern times, uh, and you mentioned the. '9s is when things sort of went. official, and that was 1994. Um, they. officially went public, uh, due to the. 1994 Intelligence Services Act. And.

basically uh this had happened to MI5 in. 1989 uh and it kind of seemed like they. uh had to kind of bring in some. bureaucracy for legal reasons uh among. others. They uh the the staff of MI5 um. and I guess later MI6 wanted better. legal basis for things like tapping. phones. They had to be be a little. little more on the up and up. Um I think. the it was the European Court of Human.

Rights said that uh if you're an. intelligence service, you have to have. legal footing and a complaints system. So like you you have to become official. for all this stuff to be official, right? Um there's so so that law that. essentially acknowledged that there was. such a thing as MI6 back in 1994. It had. a section called section 7 and it. basically said if one of our agents is. off running around committing crimes in. another country that they could be tried.

for back in the UK, they cannot be held. liable for that. They'll never be tried. for this. Yeah. And some people have. taken that as admission that there's. such a thing as a license to kill. And. that makes sense. I mean, there. apparently there is a new law that's. being talked about right now and is. making its way through the Supreme Court. there um that basically says yes and. pretty much murder too. We're not going. to try them for murder. And it actually. extends to agents, too. Okay. So if. somebody murders somebody for MI6 and.

then they defect to the UK, the UK is. never going to try them for that murder. So it's a lot. So people are like, "That's a license to kill." And I saw an. agent say on I think a PBS or BBC. documentary, a license to kill doesn't. make any sense. Like if you're in. another country and you kill somebody. there, like when the cops come, you're. not going to show them your license to. kill and they'll let you go. Like this. is not you're breaking that country's. law. You've murdered someone in that. country. your toast if you get caught. Yeah. So, there is no license to kill,

but symbolic these laws essentially kind. of potentially give it something like a. license to kill. Yeah. But you just. don't whip out your double O card. No. No. Uh the other things that happened in. 1994 as far as organiza uh the. organization goes is they were uh the. the chief was I was about to say exposed. technically. That's right. But they. voluntarily said, "All right, we have to. be official now. Here's who our chief. is." Um, they moved offices to some.

fancy headquarters on the on the. Tims designed by Terry Ferrell. It's a. very secure um sort of secretive. building. And, you know, it's while they. did go public, you know, technically, it's still MI6 and they still have a. culture of secrecy because of what they. do. It's not like, you know, they just. sort of made things some things a little. more public uh to make things official, I guess, right? Um that that building.

too, it is secure, but it was blown up, not once, but twice. Well, not blown up. The first time it was attacked by the. IRA. They shot an anti-tank rocket. launcher at the building on September. 20th, 2000, and that building just like. shook it off immediately. did like it. did almost no damage to it whatsoever. and really kind of showed just how. crazy reinforced that building is. But. it suffered a much different fate in. James Bond Skyfall where it blew up. Oh,

was that with that building? Mhm. Skyfall was good. Yeah, it was. As a. matter of fact, quite liked it. I'm. curious what's going to happen next with. that franchise. Did Yeah. They haven't. named any James Bond yet. I don't think. so. And they they sold, you know, the. the Broccoli family, I think, sold sold. everything. Oh, really? To Oh, God. It. may have been Amazon even. I don't know. Wow. Not sure. But we'll see. Well, if. it's not Idris Elba, I'm going to be. really surprised. Yeah, they've been. talking about him for years. That would. be too good to be true. They're No one's.

smart enough to do that in in movie. making. Yeah, I don't have great faith. Uh we. should talk a little bit about the more. modern-day stuff because um you know. starting in the early 2000s uh leading. up to the Iraq war in 2003. uh obviously they were going to be. working with hunting down terrorists and. maybe uh weapons of mass destruction and. that was one of their big black eyes. actually was bogus information that got.

through. uh apparently, you know, it. wasn't vetted like it should have been. and that was one of the reasons that uh. the US and the rest of the world uh got. and believed bad information about. weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Yeah. Um it's said that that is the. lowest moment in MI6 history since Kim. Philby was discovered as a traitor and. longtime spy, which is really saying. something if you've heard our episode on. Kim Philby. Um, but I would say that. this was even much much worse because of.

how many people died in the Iraq war. Yeah. And the reason why it was such a. big deal, this bad intelligence, is. because the US and the UK essentially. made a pact like we're going to invade. Iraq together to topple this this. regime. We just want to get rid of. Saddam Hussein. That's not legal. If. Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, now it's legal under basically. international law. So, they really went. to a lot of trouble to try to find. anything that suggested that. And in the.

end, they just relied on these sources. that just were totally untrustworthy. Um, and I don't remember where we talked. about it, but one of the sources that. that the US and the UK relied on to. invade Iraq with said they have weapons. of mass destruction. They keep them in. these glass canisters and in these like. little glass balls and the glass balls. are green. Yeah. and Nicholas Cage. protects them with Shan Connory. Yeah. I. mean, learned people sus really. genuinely suspect that that could have.

been misinformation based on The Rock. Yeah. And that the the handful of. British ministers and politicians who. saw this intel had not seen The Rock. apparently, and it just didn't ring any. bells if they had seen it. Well, they. had better taste than that, I guess. So, it wasn't that good, but you know, if. you want just like a a you know, shoot. them up bang kind of thing action movie, I guess. Yeah, it's all right. Yeah. Um, so today MI6, uh, they're realizing.

openly in interviews and stuff that they. really need to start keeping up with. technology because because of like. facial recognition and surveillance. states like that China has and the UK, it's basically impossible to create um, an agent somewhere like human. intelligence is really hard to do now, especially in China. Yes. And apparently. they're starting to use AI to run. scenarios and situations to predict how. somebody will behave in different.

situations. That's a new one they're. starting to do, too. So, um I don't know. how ahead of the curve they are, and it. sounds to me a little bit like they're. behind the curve, but at least they're. realizing they need to they need to wake. up and and smell the um hard. drives. Sorry. Thought you were going to. say English breakfast tea, but Oh, that's even better. So, so we just edit. that in, but you say it Beijing Mr. Herman, right? Uh, so the, you know, the. other obvious thing as far as modern day. recruitment goes, it's not like the old.

days where they would just sort of. source someone out and very, you know, quietly have someone walk by and drop a. note on their dinner table that says, "Are you interested in a job?" You know, come by this office tomorrow alone, that. kind of thing. Uh it's a modern. organization now with you know job. listings and things like that. Again. still very secretive in a lot of ways. I'm sure in what they do but um they you. know starting in 1994 is when they. really were brought into the sort of. modern era. Uh it's a little less James.

Bondi and just a little more you know. fill out this application and we'll do. our background checks. Right. It is. still risky though is is uh I can't. remember what year it was in the 2010s I. believe there was a codereaker for MI6. named Gareth Williams who was found dead. in his bathroom inside a tote bag that. was locked from the outside. Yeah, that's hard to do on your own. But that. wouldn't that the excuses like he did. this himself? Either that or that it was.

like a sex game gone wrong and the. partner like took off, freaked out and. took off. I think that's the official. explanation. Um, but there was a former. KGB agent who came forward in 2015 and. said no. That guy would they the. Russians tried to recruit him and he. said no and so they killed him. I wonder. if it was a sex game gone wrong and they. just were extracting invisible ink. Oh. my god. I think that's a pretty good way. to wrap up this episode. If not have. wrapped it up 30 seconds before you said. that. Agreed.

Uh, well, since we both agreed that this. episode is wrapped up, then that means. it's time for listener mail. Yeah, this is a got a couple of. two-parters on these next ones about. disaster films, cuz boy, we heard from a. lot of people that really enjoyed that. one. Uh, and these two are from Maria. and Kirk. Uh, hey guys, love the. disaster movie, but I'm surprised you. didn't mention the movie Testament. Uh, I haven't not heard of this, Maria, but. I'm going to check it out. It's from. 1983 by Lynn Litman, starring Jane.

Alexander. Uh, one of the few with a. female lead, closest thing to a hero in. this postapocalyptic movie and one of. the few directed by a woman. Uh, you. were focusing a more escapist uh, action. disaster type things, but you did. mention a few that were a little off the. radar, so I thought I would mention this. one. And another one that you could have. mentioned that was a little off the. radar was Melancholia, a pre-apocalyptic. film. So, we not mentioned that. I swear. to God we did. I don't think we did in. that episode, but we did talk about it.

recently cuz we we've talked about it a. few times for some reason. I think that. qualifies. Uh and then also from Kirk, "Hey from beautiful Atoria or Oregon, longtime listener and I love disaster. films and you guys did a great job. I'm. surprised though that you didn't mention. Jurassic Park cuz I believe that fits. all the criteria. uh and predates Twister by 3 years and. it also fits your conversation on the. early use of CGI with some of the. greatest special effects of the time. Mhm. I have a feeling I won't be the. only person mentioning this. Uh totally.

were. Love the podcast, guys. And that. is from Kirk Clinger. Uh now we had a. few people write in about Jurassic Park, but I don't know about disaster movie. To me, that's maybe a subgenre of. monster movie. I don't know. What do you. think? It uh it did have a Hoffman in. the form of um Wayne Knight, the who. played Newman. True. He was even wearing. a Hawaiian shirt. Like, you couldn't get. more obviously Hoffman. Yeah, that's a.

good point. So, I just I don't I don't. think it is a disaster movie, though. But that's just my opinion. Yeah. And. we're not the I mean, what do we know? If you think it's a disaster movie, then. go with it. I did say some people agreed. with me though that Godzilla minus one. is definitely a disaster. Okay, so I was. right. Well, the the scale of. destruction in Jurassic Park one was. limited to Ela Nubar. So I don't know the other things were. localized too. So maybe I'm just wrong. about everything in life. Yeah. Yeah. Like that t that tunnel collapse with.

Stallone that was localiz. Yeah, that's. true. That's true. Uh yeah. Well, Kirk, thank you for starting this. conversation. It's a great one. Like I. said, we love that kind of thing. Send. us an email. Send it off to stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].