What was the Four Pests Campaign? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck. It's just us and. that's okay. Uh because we are going to. do our best today pronouncing Chinese. words, which is always a laugh riot if. you're a fan of the podcast. >> Yeah, you can take those, my friend. uh. cuz I meant to look up the. pronunciations and I didn't get a chance. to. But this topic about the four pests.

campaign uh comes to you from listener. actually non-lister uh Emily Bryant, my. wife. >> Oh, nice. >> Uh she gave me the idea and I was like, "Oh, yeah. I looked into a little bit.". I was like, "Yeah, this this will be. good.". >> That's funny. I wondered if you had. thought of it because of the you killing. the cockroach recently on air. No, but I. do have to say you you judge me pretty. hard on the cockroach. >> and while just very uh um casually.

talking about how much you would kill a. mosquito and ticks and fleas, but the. but Oh, not the cockroach. Chuck, >> no. >> Was I a little harsh? I'm sorry. >> No, you weren't harsh, but I was like, "Wait a minute. You're killing three out. of four of these and uh acting like. you're, you know, Yeah. God's gift to. insects.". >> Yeah. My boundaries apply to all. >> Yeah. Okay. So, we're not we're not. talking about cockroaches yet. We're. talking about rats, mosquitoes, flies. I.

have an issue with rats, but I get where. they're coming from. And sparrows. These. were the four pests that made up of the. four pests campaign carried out at the. end of the 50s, beginning of the 1960s. in communist China, which newspapers at. the time called Red China. >> Mhm. >> And um it was an enormously successful. communist eradication campaign that was. bent on controlling nature. And boy did.

it ever work. >> Yeah. I mean, successful in one way, um. very destructive in another. And we'll. get to all that. Uh obviously we're. talking about the leader at the time, Mao Dong. >> And this had uh was not the first time. something like this had been tried and. it's been tried since then over there as. well. Uh in the 1920s and 30s in China. they had fly killing campaigns. uh in. mid 1920s there was a fly campaign such. that the Southeast University in uh.

Nanjing was it was very effective and. they were you know this is very much. like uh anecdotal like there were. practically no flies there all summer. >> Yeah. >> But apparently it worked pretty good. Uh. and then they did this at other times in. the 1920s and 30s um where they would. incentivize like middle schoolers to go. out and kill flies and bring them in and. show them to their teachers in like a. little matchbox let's say. >> Mhm. uh and things like that. But. apparently uh that resulted in more than. 10 million dead flies. So there was precedent in China for.

doing stuff like this. >> Yeah. So much so that I actually saw a. contemporaneous newspaper account that. was talking about the four four pests. campaign when it kicked off and the. newspaper, this is an American. newspaper, just kind of chided and said. the fact that they're having to include. flies belies the the boast that they. there were no flies in China. So. apparently after these eradication. campaigns, China told the rest of the. world, "We don't have flies anymore, suckers, because we get rid of them. We. takes care of business," I think is how.

they put it. >> Yeah. The four pesa, we need to sort of. set the stage because it's kind of. rooted in the great leap forward. And. that was a very um ambitious campaign in. uh 1958, January 1958, that had a lot of. initiatives, but the real goal, the kind. of stated goal was to industrialize and. to overtake the UK's industrial output. in less than 15 years. Um mainly in uh. there were there are lots of ways they. wanted to do this, but mainly to outdo.

them in steel production. >> Yeah. And just a quick reminder, the UK. is where the industrial revolution. began. So this was beyond ambitious for. China, especially from the place that. they were coming from. Um, so Mao was. extremely uh ambitious, I guess, and to. do something like this that required. really huge sweeping changes and for. them to happen immediately. You weren't. transitioning into anything. It was stop.

doing this and start doing this. >> Yeah. like stop farming and and build a. steel furnace in your backyard and start. smelting. Um it was they tried new weird. sort of farming techniques that weren't. tested. >> Uh that was it was a pretty enthusiastic. campaign, you know, from the people as. far as how they received it and how they. got into it. Uh apparently that the. farmers sometimes or or people would. just work late into the night and they. called it catching the moon and stars. and public officials were um they would.

issue these steel and grain quotas to. like you know make as much steel and. grow as much grain as you could but they. were very unrealistic uh quotas. they. were not able to fulfill those and in. that time with um you know this sort of. idealistic uh authoritative approach to. government um they were over reporting. output and as we'll see that kind of. happened again with the four pest. campaign. >> Yeah, that was an enormous problem that. China ran into in almost immediately.

after they began the four pest campaign. And even though they were kind of um. parallel to one another, they were. definitely intertwined at least to some. degree, right? >> Yeah. >> So the four pest campaign itself um you. might say like, okay, China's trying to. industrialize and catch up to the UK. Who cares about flies and sparrows? And. it turns out that Mao cared a lot about. flies and sparrows and other pests. He. um and I've noticed this before in a lot. of the stuff he talked about, he almost. had like a contempt for nature and a.

real like inner desire to um to to. dominate nature and bend it to human. will to his will at least. >> Um he had a slogan called man must. conquer nature. Pretty on the nose, right? >> Yeah. And also apparently he was quoted. back in 1958 that he wanted to make the. high mountain bow its head, make the. river yield the way. And so this really. kind of tied these eradication. campaigns. And make no mistake, the.

point was to get rid of every fly, every. rat, every mosquito, and every sparrow. in all of China. Um, so this eradication. campaign really kind of fit into that. that viewpoint that he held. >> Yeah, for sure. So there was some uh. megalomania involved for sure, but it it. definitely had genuine roots and and. ambition to be uh to get rid of disease. um to uh to stop these contagions from. spreading because they were they were.

coming out of a decade in the 1940s. where they had smallox and chalera and. malaria and the infant mortality rate. was like 30%. Um, so there was. definitely, you know, they reacted with, um, these big large-scale vaccination. drives, um, sanitation initiatives, but. getting rid of these pests, uh, they. thought could get rid of the things that. were causing these diseases to begin. with. >> Yeah. >> And getting rid of these pests, uh, in. three of the cases would get rid of. these diseases to begin with. Um, in the.

case of sparrows, they're not spreading. disease, but he, um, sparrows are grain. thieves. They they eat grain. And so, uh, they had these wild estimates that. sparrows could, um, like the food they. lost to grain by sparrows could feed up. to 60,000 people. So, that's why they. were on the list. >> Yeah. Somehow they calculated that each. sparrow stole and ate about 4 1/2. kilogram a year, which equals to about. 10 pounds, which is a staggering amount.

of grain for one single bird to steal. from like right out of the Chinese. people's mouths. So that was why. sparrows were on there. You might have. been sitting here the whole time going, "What are you talking about with. sparrows? They're the cutest little. bird. They're the greatest of all birds. potentially. Why would you want to kill. sparrows? And sparrows just got wrapped. up into this big drag net essentially. >> Yeah. Along with other birds by. accident, of course. >> Yes. So the whole thing was essentially. like an adopt a mile program except with.

killing animals. >> Yeah. Uh I mean they had sanitation. teams that people would organize in. communities. Uh they would go out. together and hunt rats. Um they. encourage kids of course to do this but. just individually they were encouraging. people like hey kill every mosquito you. can find kill every fly that comes near. you. It's your patriotic duty to do so. Uh they would incentivize and reward. people sometimes but usually it was just. like this is something you need to get. on board with to make us all healthier.

>> Exactly. And going back to that uh. infant mortality rate talking about. making them healthier like this is where. they were coming from that 30% the way. that it's expressed typically is number. of deaths per 1,000 births. So that's. 300 deaths per 10,000 births. So this. was an staggering infant mortality rate. that they were dealing with. And it it. kind of drives home like, okay, this was. even more ambitious than it seems on its. face because not only are they trying to.

leap forward, they're really having to. come from a deficit to even begin to. leap. >> Yeah, for sure. And of course in. communist China, um how are you going to. get this ball rolling? Uh through. government propaganda, it was a big big. part of mobilizing people to do this. stuff. They had uh posters just sort of. encouraging people to kill the pest. Um. they would say things like it will lead. to happiness for 10,000 generations. Uh. they would also have posters like a. positive ones like uh here's what our. future's going to look like with like um.

like farms that are flourishing and. industry that is doing great and all you. have to do is is kill these pests. Um it. even filtered down to the level of. children where they had like children's. songs and kids books talking about. killing sparrows. Yeah, they did absolutely everything. right to to change people's views on. sparrows so thoroughly because before. they hadn't been seen as pests until. those grain estimates came in. >> Yeah, they're sparrows. >> Exactly. So I I believe the Chinese in.

uh up up to 1958 59 viewed sparrows. pretty normally and then all of a sudden. the whole country was like yes we'll. we'll kill sparrows no problem because. that propaganda campaign was so. effective. >> Yeah. They had a uh they filled out the. questionnaire. How do you view sparrows? A favorably. B not favorably. C don't. really have an opinion. >> Right. Exactly. And everybody said not. favorably anymore. >> So, we should give the old grain of salt. here as far as the numbers we're about.

to start talking about. >> It is very hard for a few reasons. A, it's it's communist China, so any. statistics need to have the grain of. salt that they put out. Uh, and also. we're talking about killing individual. flies and mosquitoes. So, it's just. really tough to quantify that. >> Yes. But as we'll get to in a minute, I. tried to quantify it and I think I did a. great job. >> Oh boy. Does that mean there's going to. be some Josh maths? >> Yeah. >> Aces of Josh math. You ready? >> Can't wait. Yeah.

>> Well, let's just jump to that. Okay. >> Okay. >> We'll come back to rats in a second, but. flies. Let's talk about flies. One of. the reasons flies were chosen is because. they transfer all sorts of diseases. because they like to hang out on poop. and then they like to go hang out on. food that people eat. One of the big. problems uh one of the big problem. diseases that they spread is cholera. which is not fun and it spreads very. easily. Um so flies were targeted in 220. million pounds of flies were killed.

>> Okay, hold on. I have a question. I got. to interrupt. >> Okay. Are you about to say that you. found out the weight of an average fly? >> Mhm. >> To find the total number of flies out of. that 220 million pounds. >> Yes. >> Amazing. >> Are you ready? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> First of all, I have to shout out uh. Bing and its AI when I said how much uh. is how many flies are in one pound, right? And I guess I actually put one to. two pounds. I tried to take the. shortcut. Bing comes back with one to. two pounds of flies biomass equals 1 to.

two pounds of flies. >> Like, thanks for the help, Bing. So, I. had to sludge forward and do it myself. So, I looked up how much a house fly. weighs. I saw 50 milligrams. I saw 10. milligrams. Okay? >> So, if you divide that um per pound, that equals 9,000 flies per pound. Okay? It also equals more. I'll get to that in. a second. But that so n so at 50. milligrams of fly which is way high. that's 9,000 flies per pound times 220.

million pounds of flies equals 1.98. trillion. >> flies that were killed in just a couple. of years. >> Mindboggling, right? Well, get this. If. you adjust to a fly weighing 10 mg, that. equals almost that equals almost 10. trillion flies that were killed in China. over the course of this four pest. campaign. Just a few years, 10 trillion. flies. That's that's the numbers I'm. coming up with, guys.

>> That's amazing. And this wasn't a bit I. genuinely didn't know that Josh was. going to do that, but I saw the writing. on the wall. As soon as I knew that it. was pounds of flies, I was like, I know. he's going to figure out total flies. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't go ahead and. convert it into Big Macs, which I feel a. little bad about, but you know, I still. feel like I did a good job. >> All right, that's amazing. Uh rats, they. carry a disease called uh schistois. I probably mispronounced that, but that. is something that can kill you uh with. organ failure, can give you cancer. Um,

rats also stole grain and apparently. they would drive these rats out of their. holes, kill them, and allegedly get the. grain out of their hidey-holes and feed. that to livestock is is supposedly what. happened. >> That's vengeance right there. You. actually take the grain that the rat. stole back. >> Yeah, >> that's something else. So 1.5 billion. rats were killed. >> How many pounds of rat is that? >> Um, >> you got to reverse engineer it. So, I. would say about.7.

billion.7. billion pounds of rats. I'm going to go. with. >> I've seen New York rats. I don't know if. Chinese rats hold a candle, but those. New York rats, those suckers can weigh. several pounds, I feel like. >> Oh, several pounds. Yeah. Yeah. So, I I. stand by my my estimate. Let's say 0.9. because not all of them are going to. weigh two pounds. >> Uh I love a rat, by the way. >> That's what I'm saying. I'm not fully on. board. I get rats really easily spread a. lot of disease and they have throughout. human history, but rats themselves I.

don't I don't think are problematic in. in like individually, you know, >> like a pet a pet rat, give me that. little guy and let me scratch it under. the chin. >> Super sweet. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, a lot of rats died. Um, again, the reason why they targeted rats is not. just from um spreading disease, but also. they stole that grain, too. They. estimated that rats stole way more than. sparrows at about nine kilograms or 20. pounds per rat per year. >> So the writing was on the wall for rats.

They were. >> well mosquitoes no one likes. They. spread malaria which is a bad problem. obviously. >> Uh everyone knows that mosquitoes um you. know host their larae and wet things and. puddles and spare tires and things like. that. Still waters. So, uh, citizens. were they were like, "Hey, dredge your. rivers. Fill your fill these watery. ditches up, uh, with dirt. Don't let. water collect. Um, get rid of those feed. breeding grounds." Uh, they also, this. is pretty remarkable, they raise fish.

and ducks to specifically feed on their. larvae. Uh, which is pretty impressive. And then, you know, obviously swatting. them is one way, but lots of awful. harmful insect insecticides just being. sprayed everywhere. Yeah. This is our. requisite reminiscence of the mosquito. fogging truck driving down the street at. night in your neighborhood in the. summer. You remember that? >> Yeah. We didn't have those cuz we didn't. live in neighborhoods, but I knew they. existed. >> Yeah. They were something. Even back. then in the 70s and 80s, it was like we.

need to steer clear of those. They just. looked ominous. >> Yeah. The the uh very first opening. shots of my beloved documentary, Vernon, Florida, is a mosquito truck going. through the town. Oh boy. >> Yeah. >> Um, so they killed, as far as China. estimates, 24 million pounds of. mosquitoes or 4.354. trillion mosquitoes over the course of. this campaign. >> Hey, aside from the insecticide, I say. hats off to that one.

>> Yeah, remember we talked about it. before. If not in an episode, then on. like internet roundup where there was a. a geneticist or a molecular biologist. maybe who's like, "Hey, you know, I. figured out a way so that we can get rid. of mosquitoes forever in just a few. generations if we adjust this gene and. release these genetically modified. mosquitoes into the wild." And like it. would have worked and everyone was like, you know, I don't know if we should do. that. Mosquitoes might be providing some. service that we're just not aware of. It. just seems wrong or dumb to just.

eradicate them all and so he didn't pull. the trigger on it. But some I think like. Yukon or something professor had figured. out exactly how to do it. >> Yeah. But didn't they also come back and. say like no like we have yet to find any. like if mosquitoes were removed there's. no uh domino effect in the insect chain. like they could really go away and. everyone would be fine. >> Yes, I do remember that too. And um. before you can say anything else, I say.

we take a break. >> That sounds great. >> Great. Thanks, man. I appreciate the. support. [Music]. All.

right. So, the fourth, I know you were. just waiting with baited breath. Uh, about sparrows. They again um weren't. considered pests before the great leap. forward which kind of preceded this. Uh. but he had a very Ma had a very. effective anti-pest campaign going. So. people bought into it and they would. kill them. They would crush their little.

eggs. They would light firecrackers and. throw them at them. They would destroy. their nests. They would sc set up. scarecrows or or um scare sparrows in. fields and then shoot them dead. Uh but. apparently the most popular, far and. away the most popular method is that. they would just make such a racket in. the streets banging pots and pans and. yelling and screaming that the sparrows. would fly until they tired and then. would just drop down from the sky, >> right? But not dead. The the um people.

after them would go kill them by hand, usually squish them or break their necks. or something like that. And guys, if. you're not familiar with sparrows and. you are not driving right now, go look. up sparrows. They're the little cute. brown birds that hop around. >> outside in the on the cafe patio, not. bothering anybody, just being cute. These are the birds that that the people. of China were killing by hand in 1958 to. 1961, I think. >> Yeah, they're kind of finchy looking.

Just they're they're very very cute. >> Oh, wow. I'm actually seeing a uh one of. those uh propaganda posters right now. that has a a rat, a sparrow, a mosquito, and a fly impaled on a Chinese sword. >> Yes, that works. That makes me want to. kill a sparrow. >> It's kind of a really sweet poster, actually, but I just don't like the. message. >> Yeah, for sure. So, as you can bet, um. like this led to the near extinction of. sparrows in just a few years. So, here's.

the problem is uh with the sparrows. Sparrows eat locusts and locusts are a. true pest. So, without the sparrows, the. locust really really thrived. Um it. turns out that sparrows are a very. crucial part of maintaining that. ecosystem. >> And without them, there were no natural. predators for the locust and they. ballooned and the crops were devastated. I think the world atlas estimated that. the locusts were responsible for.

destroying hundreds of thousands of. pounds of grain because of this, >> right? So that was I mean that equals a. lot of crop yield uh even in China with. all of the arable land that they have. And so uh if you're familiar with. Chinese history, especially in the late. 50s to 1960s, um you know what's coming. uh the great. famine of China. It lasted from 1958 to. 1961 and it is far and away the most. devastating famine on in the history of.

humanity as far as recorded history. goes. >> Yeah. >> Um estimates run from 15 million to up. to 78 million. And I saw reasonable. people estimating it was actually. between 20 and 50 million people who. starved to death from just 1958 to 1961. in China. That's how bad the famine was. And some people tie that back to at. least in part the four four pest. campaign and the effect of removing.

sparrows from the ecosystem. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean there was um many. reports and instances of suicide uh. apparently cannibalism. >> uh people murdering each other to get to. their food. It got really really bad. Um. there was also uh it was also while it. was happening um Mal refused to. acknowledge that it was happening like. there is no famine. It was after. everyone died like a year later that Mal. finally admitted that a famine had. occurred which is like everyone knows.

there's a famine going on. So that's. like the ultimate sort of gaslighting. when your leader is not even. acknowledging that, >> right? >> But he didn't accept, you know, he. blamed it on uh rightists and their. failure to implement his policies. correctly. >> From what I could tell, I did not see. how much he actually was aware. Part of. the part of the issue was how just. ensconcconced and insulated he was from. bad news because all of the people under. him and all the people under those. people were afraid of being beaten and.

tortured and murdered for giving Mao bad. news essentially. So he might have. really not realized just how bad things. were. >> Maybe I bet you can't lose 50 million. people though and not just notice like. traffic's better. >> Well the that's the other thing too. Most of the deaths were in the rural. areas. They were not in the cities. A. lot of people in the cities were. probably hard up, but they were not. starving to death. It was the people in. the country. And a lot of that had to do. with terrible, terrible policies that.

were on top of a bunch of other issues. that all kind of came together to. exacerbate this this famine and make it. as bad as it was. >> Yeah. Well, we're going to talk about. those because, you know, I don't think. anyone maintains that it was just the. sparrows that caused this famine, >> right? >> Uh or, you know, and people to to die at. the rates of tens of millions. But, um, there were there were a few factors. One. was obviously environmental factors. Uh, in 1959, there was a a drought in. northern China and rain and flooding in.

southern and eastern China. And all of. these natural disasters were kind of. happening at the same time which are. going to affect the grain output led to. a lot of grain deficit. I think in 1959. uh 55% like more than half of their. farmland was unusable and in 1960 their. wheat harvest was was down 70%. >> Yeah. And that's a staple crop. I mean. that's the kind of crop that you keep. your people alive with is wheat, right? So that was a big deal.

There's another one that may or may not. have been true, but I know that um Mao. uh blamed the Soviet Union on um the. famine or making it as bad as it was. And that supposedly the Soviet Union. called in their debts during this famine. that the the relations between communist. China and communist USSR had. deteriorated right around this time. And. so just basically uh to um well to be. jerks, the USSR said, "Hey, you know all. that money you owe us? We need it right.

now." I saw that that's not necessarily. the case. And someone said that the. Soviet Union may have even offered for. them to stop making payments, for the. Chinese to stop making payments to the. USSR for three years during this famine. I I don't know if that's true or not, but that is a long-standing talking. point that came out of China at the end. of the famine when Mao finally did admit. that it had happened. He blamed it in. part on the USSR. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, another part was. what we kind of mentioned earlier with. the u great leap forward was that um.

push for industrialization and not just. a push but it's such a rapid pace that. they completely um upended kind of the. way things had had been such that it it. was devastating. they, you know, if all. of a sudden everyone is led away from. farming and producing steel in their. backyard, you're just going to have less. grain planted to begin with. And the. other sort of irony to this is this. wasn't even good steel that they were. getting. People making steel in their. backyards out of uh flatear and pots and.

pans just gets you pig iron. It didn't. result in anything that they could use. for like big-time construction. >> Yeah, that was a huge one. I mean, they. were also not trained, right? They were. they just basically said, "Hey, create a. a backyard smelting furnace and here's. your quota for steel every month or. quarter or year. Go figure it out. essentially." So, not only were they. paying less attention to farming, they. were um they were also spending more. time trying to figure this out and then. like you said were unsuccessful.

That was from what I saw one of the. biggest exacerbators of this whole. problem because it it reduced the um the. crop output so drastically that there. was just not enough food to go around. Not even close to it because people. simply stopped farming as much. >> Yeah. And at the same time they had. quotas on that grain. So even though. they were saying, "Hey, go. >> go go go quit growing things, make steel. in their backyard, but also we're going.

to raise the quotas on grain at the same. time. >> to unprecedented levels basically." And. of course, they're not going to meet. those quotas. So party members uh were. afraid of being blamed, kind of like. what you were talking about and covering. up this deficit. >> And if you did try to report, you know, accurate numbers, you might be beaten. and detained or tortured. And so they. thought they had a grain surplus. So. they end up exporting grain when they. were short on grain to feed their own. people because they thought they had a. surplus.

>> Yes. And not only would they export it, the grain surplus was considered what. the cities needed to survive uh or the. however much they needed to eat. They. didn't calculate grain surpluses based. on what percentage of how much was. grown. It was the cities need this much. It doesn't matter how much that leaves. you peasant because we're feeding the. cities. that's what we're interested in. doing. And so that's why I was saying. most of the starvation happened in the. countryside whereas the cities managed. to survive. Uh and I think that that.

probably gave an impression that there. wasn't actually a famine going on. You. had to go out into the rural areas for. that to happen. And then dissenters, people who might speak up or criticize. or whatever were actually tortured to. death, beaten to death, murdered by the. state. Um and I think they someone. estimated that there was between 6 to 8%. of the deaths of the potentially 50. million deaths during the entire Great. Leap Forward um were caused by torture.

and those were mostly peasants. >> 6 to 8%. That's amazing. >> Yeah. Being tortured to death for. basically. speaking up about being left starved to. death essentially. >> Uh all right. Hey, I say we take another. break and we come back and talk about. the legacy of this and whether or not. those sparrows made a comeback in China. right after this.

[Music]. Okay, Chuck. So, finally, finally, after. a relatively short time, China realized.

like we should probably leave the. sparrows alone. Again, this was right. before they became extinct in China. Uh, and it was as recent or as soon as 1960. I think the whole campaign started in. 1958, right? So, just two to three. years, they were like, "Oh god, this is. not going well." So, they they took the. sparrows off and they said, "Bed bugs, you're up." And the bed bugs said, "Gulp.". >> Can I kill a bed bug with your. permission? >> Yeah, I I I've got no problem with.

killing bed bugs. I don't know much. about them. I just know that they're. very much disliked and they're hard to. get rid of, so why not? >> Okay. Uh yeah, they they swapped out sparrows. for bed bugs. Um eventually they would. add cockroaches to that list, much to. your chagrin. >> Um but they they did study sort of the. initial years of the four pest campaign, they did study what was going on with. the sparrows and you know whether or not. it was making a difference and their. eating habits and things like that. And. in 1960, uh I guess I don't know if this.

is right before or right after it ended, but they reported like, hey, we were. sort of mistaken in our initial. estimates. U it turns out they aren't. eating as much grain as we thought. They. actually eat uh insects. Like 75% of. their diet consists of insects and about. 25% is grain. And um this this one. researcher collected uh along with his. his colleagues collected a bunch of. sparrows to study and found that hey.

they um they're seasonal grain eaters on. top of that. So during the winter is the. only time they're feeding on these grain. seeds. Otherwise they're generally. eating pests that keep us you know keep. our harvest more safe. >> Right. Exactly. I think that that was. the the um the research by Zen Zu Xin. Pretty sure that's as close as I can. get. His research was what led to the. sparrows being taken off of the four. pest campaign. >> That's right. >> So, China realized the error of their.

ways and they took sparrows off. But not. only did they do that, they started um. reintroducing them by importing them. from the Soviet Union to try to bring. the sparrow population back. can slowly. over the years uh it did bounce back. They're no longer extinct and there's. hundreds of millions of them in China. today, but that's still far less than. there was before the four pest campaign. Part of the part of the way that they. have been able to come back is China. outlawed talk about like just getting.

mixed messages here. China outlawed. killing sparrows after they took them. off the four pest list and had said go. kill hundreds of millions of sparrows. Yeah. Driving them from the sky with. pots and pans, break their cute little. necks, and then a year later, actually, you're going to go to jail if you kill. more than 20 of them. It's a criminal. offense. >> Yeah. Isn't that crazy? That's life. under an authoritarian government. Tada. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, they've there's.

been, you know, different sort of. versions of the four pest campaign over. the years that's continued. I know we. mentioned the bed bugs. Uh, I think that. was in the 1960s. uh in 19 uh starting. in the '8s uh rats came back on the. scene as far as uh you know a big pest. to eradicate. And then in 1998. uh there was a full sort of um reboot. Let's go back to the four pest campaign. Remember that that TV show we all love. back then? Let's reboot it. And new.

propaganda posters in 1998 like kind of. like the old style one still. But this. is when they added the cockroaches. So, it was flies, mosquitoes, um, rats, and. cockroaches. >> And that 1980s rat eradication campaign. was very successful in 1984 alone, trying to kill an estimated 5% of the. entire global rat population. They. killed so many rats. One year. >> Yeah. I mean, they were paying citizens. in as late as 2007 to kill individual.

flies in certain places. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think in 2024 they've. started another mosquito campaign, anti-mosquito campaign to try to create. the mosquito-free village. So not bad. I. mean considering that they got rid of. malaria back in what year was that? >> I think they I think they finally wasn't. it like 2021 they finally said they were. malaria free. >> Yes. So it did have some positive. effects at least as far as the stupid. mosquitoes go. But the the great famine,

which you just can't talk about the four. pest campaign without talking about the. great famine because they they were tied. together in some ways for sure. Um there. they did a study, I think two different. studies in 2023 on the effects the great. famine had on people who survived it. And they found that there are definite. differences between people who lived. through the great famine and people who. didn't. >> Yeah. uh I believe that was a higher. rate of non-communicable diseases.

>> uh we're talking diabetes, cancer, psychiatric problems even. >> uh than the general population and may. have also caused a decline in the male. birth rate all the way through the early. 1960s. >> Yeah. Which is really ironic considering. the one child policy, you know. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah. Which I guess either is ironic. because of the one child policy or led. to the one child policy. >> Yeah. Uh, you got anything else? >> I got nothing else. For pest is over. >> Yeah, hats to Emily for coming up with.

that. And one little uh lanyap, as. obnoxious people call it. Uh, if you. want to know what they call sparrows in. China, they call them matcha. >> I've never heard of lanyop. >> Sure you have. I've made that joke. before and you thought it was hilarious. >> Really? >> Yeah. It's like an extra little. something, like an extra little treat. Um, >> okay. >> I heard it on like the splendid table. once. They used it. seriously where they. were talking about how the bottom of an. ice cream cone is filled with a little.

bit of chocolate to keep the the ice. cream from melting out the bottom. >> They called it a little a little lanyap. >> Huh. >> That formed my impression of the word. lany yap from that point forward. >> So in that case, the cherry on top is. the chocolate on the bottom. >> Chuck. Wow. Wow. Well, I think obviously. Chuck just brought about listener mail. Uh, this is joke or not, Josh. Um, so. you get to answer this question. We had. a few people write in, so I think there.

was either some confusion of a joke or. maybe you just got something wrong. We'll see. >> Okay. >> Hey guys, uh, the reason I'm writing is. cuz I heard something in the in the. first heavy metal episode that I thought. was a joke, but after listening to the. audio again and checking the transcript. even, I'm wondering if it's just an. error and got and it got through mainly. because it was so dead pan. But see, buddy, Brian, you can never tell with. Josh because he can be so dead pan. I've. I've shown over and over and over that I. can't tell sometimes if he's joking. Um, here we go. Uh, Josh explained that.

Black Sabbath got their name from the. Boris Caroff movie Black Sabbath, which. is true, but the film isn't about a. talking boat winning a riata for a group. of orphans. In the film, Caroff hosts. three different horror stories, but none. are about a riotta or orphans. Uh, Boris. Caroff as an animated talking boat that. saved orphans would be amazing. At any. rate, maybe I'm wrong and Josh was. joking and Chuck just missed it or it. was explained as such and I missed it, but I wanted to pass it along. Rock on. That is from Brian in Brooklyn, New Hampshire. >> Nice. Thanks, Brian. Or Ryan.

>> Brian. >> Thanks, Brian. >> So, what is it? >> Uh, let me just walk us through a couple. of points real quick and I think it'll. become clear. >> Okay. One is that Black Sabbath, the. band, would name themselves after a. movie about a talking boat that wins a. riata for a group of orphans. >> Seems like a joke. >> And secondly, that a movie about a. talking boat that wins a regata for a. group of orphans is called Black. Sabbath. It was totally totally made up. >> Okay. So, is there a talking boat orphan.

movie and you were just referencing that. as a joke or did you just completely. Wholecloth create that? >> I made that up from Whole Cloth. I don't. I don't think there's a movie like that. I could believe it, but I I've never. heard of one. >> Well, then in that case, my friend, I. give you the improv award for the month. because that you sold it and it was. pretty great. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. That means. the world to me. >> I couldn't have made up such a. outlandish. movie plot on the on the off the dome. like that. >> Nice. Thank you. Uh and thank you too,

Brian, for bringing that to Chuck's. attention. I've been waiting a little. while and uh I'm glad we got a chance to. go over it. >> It's very satisfying. >> It was very satisfying. Uh if you want. to be like Brian and set us up for a. satisfying conversation, we love that. kind of stuff. You can send us an email. to stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iMheart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple.

Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].