What To Do With All This Nuclear Waste? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production [music] of iHeart Radio. >> [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's. here, too. And this is a [music] good. old-fashioned episode of Stuff You. Should Know. >> [music]. >> Are you talking about the green goo? Yeah, I mean, it's [music] just hard not.

to think of Homer Simpson when you're. talking about nuclear power at all. Yeah, and nuclear waste in particular, right? >> Yeah, like you know, a little rod flies. right into his head. Right. The inanimate carbon rod is the. employee of the year, I think. That's. right. So, yeah, it turns out that nuclear. waste doesn't really look like that. It. certainly doesn't glow green. Probably. the closest you could get to what the. Simpsons depict, and not just the. Simpsons, I think the uh classic movie.

Men at Work featuring brothers Emilio. Estevez and Charlie Sheen. Never saw. that. It's good. As far as '80s comedies go, it's pretty good. All right. And they play a lot of 2 Live Crew, too. Oh, well, there you go. Cuz. [clears throat] I think it takes place. in Miami, I'm not sure. But um the closest you can get to that, from what I can tell, is a is sludge, toxic nuclear sludge Mhm. that is. described as having kind of a peanut. buttery consistency. Mhm, tasty. Gross.

and dangerous, you know? Yeah, it's not. a sandwich you want. Unless you cut the. crust off. >> [laughter]. >> So, for the most part, though, nuclear. waste is. solid. It's like pellets of solid. essentially metal material made up of a. bunch of different elements and metals. and all sorts of crud pressed together. to form essentially a uranium fuel is.

what it starts out as. But after it. undergoes nuclear fission for 5 or 6. years, it says, "I'm spent. Get me out. of here." And a new fuel assembly is. brought in. Yeah, that's right. And this is. clearly the most dangerous kind of. nuclear waste. We're going to go over, you know, several different kinds of. nuclear waste, but this is the stuff. that you really really got to take care. of. I mean, you got to take care of all of. course, but this is stuff that's super. dangerous. Right. And these pellets are.

these little. cylinders about the size, I guess it. depends on your thumb, but you know, like midway up your thumb, half a thumb. Okay, half thumb. Anything but metric. Yeah, not the thumb stump. Like the actual thumb print section of. your thumb. The thumb sprout. Yeah, the. thumb sprout, exactly. And. you know, disposing of this stuff is is. sort of the highest level of concern. because we have to do it safely. Um we.

don't There's not a place in the world. that has a permanent solution for this. Uh even though Finland is pretty close. to. um. you know, I'm going to put air scare quotes, as. you call them, around permanent solution. because who knows what permanent means, you know, in 50,000 years. Uh and we were going to build one of. these in 2010, and we'll talk about why. that didn't happen. But since the 1940s, we've had a lot of. different kinds of nuclear waste to.

dispose of. And we've been getting rid. of it and storing it in a. few different ways since then, but. there's a a potentially a brighter. future ahead with some pretty ingenious. ideas. Yeah, fingers crossed because. right now we're going down the road that. was proposed a long time ago, and it's. kind of a dumb, unnecessary road. Uh and. hopefully smarter heads will prevail. But yeah, we'll get into that later. But. one thing I thought was fascinating is. that there is way less nuclear waste.

than you would think. Right? I think. something like if you took all of the. nuclear power that you used, you, Chuck, used for your entire lifetime Mhm. moment of birth Yep. to the moment you. die in a couple of years. All of No. Far. longer than that. I hope so. Um all of. that nuclear waste would be compressed. to about a hockey puck. So, each of us. in the United States have a hockey. puck's worth of nuclear waste assigned.

to us, and each of us has to figure out. what to do with that hockey puck. individually. That's the new standard. That's right. And by the way, if people. think I do have Chuck Strudamas powers. of the future, please do not get. concerned that I foretold my death in 2. years. It's okay. Okay. I'm done talking. >> if that erased it for everybody, but all. right, it was a good attempt. I could. just see hear someone out there being. like, "Oh, no, no, no, Chuck said he's. going to die in 2 years. That's He. shan't even say things like that. Lest. we forget Jared and Hugh Jackman." I. mean, I don't like you saying it, but.

you know, I'm just I'm nervously. laughing instead. Uh all right, so we should kind of. quickly go over how nuclear reactors. work, even though we have a a pretty. great episode on that. But the the. upshot of all this is even though each. of us just has a hockey puck's worth of. nuclear waste, the. and it amounts to, I think, like 90,000. tons, which is eye-popping in the United. States alone. It's eye-popping, but it's. actually not that much. Um the problem. is is it the it's very dangerous for a.

very long time afterward. And you have. to put it in very very special places, and those special places are essentially. what we're going to kind of go over. today. Yeah, disposing of that stuff. Yeah. Uh. we have a pretty good episode on nuclear. energy. I can't remember what it was. called. Do you happen Did you check. that? I No, I The only one I can think of. where we really talked about what.

happens in nuclear reactors was. Fukushima. The kind of like I thought we. did one just on creating nuclear energy, no? >> I don't know, man. I don't think so. All. right. Well, we'll go over it quickly. again just how it works cuz it works how. um creating energy works at a coal plant. or natural gas plant cuz what you're. essentially trying to do is boil water. Right. to produce steam, and that steam. turns a turbine. But in this case, the the fuel is not. coal or natural gas, it's uh these.

little uranium 235 pellets. Uh like I. said, they're sort of a half of a thumb. size. And [snorts] you mentioned um fuel. assembly. A fuel assembly, well, you get. these little pellets, you put them. inside these long fuel rods. >> Mhm. and then you bundle together those. fuel rods, and those are the fuel. assemblies. And depending on the size of. the reactor and the type, um there's. anywhere from 150 to about 800 of those. bundled up uh cylindrical fuel rods as.

fuel assemblies in the reactor core. Right. And they're they're kept. underwater. And the water does a couple. of things. One, it actually helps carry. out the nuclear chain reaction that. produces the heat that boils the water. that produces the steam that turns the. turbine that creates the electricity, right? Mhm. But it also keeps it from. going critical. It also cools it. So, there's a constant flow of water. in and out to maintain it at a. a fairly constant temperature at like. 115° F or something like that. And.

what's great about this is this is a. it's a self-contained process. Yeah. >> Unlike burning natural coal natural gas. or coal, there's no emissions. And. everybody says, "Hooray, no emissions.". And then they say, "Yes, but we also. have this nuclear waste as a result.". And everybody says, "Aw." So, that's. where we stand. Nuclear power has a lot. of promise. Um if done well, especially with some of. the advanced designs that are coming. down the pike, it's not a bad energy.

source. It's just we haven't figured out. what to do with the nuclear fuel. And. that's such an understatement, Chuck, that if you actually once you start. figuring out what we're doing with our. spent nuclear fuel, it's it's. it it's almost embarrassing that this is. what we're doing. We're just basically. stashing it over here until we can. figure out what to do with it in the. long term. And we've been doing that for. half a century. Yeah. Yeah, it's been. going on for a long time. The thing is, you know, these things. wear out, which is why we have to um.

remove, you know, once you spin that. fuel, just like a a lump of coal would. get spent. Mhm. Uh you got to do the. same with the the nuclear stuff. So, every, I think, 5 or 6 years um. it can go before that it's basically on. empty, but it's not on empty, as we'll. see, cuz there's still a little bit of. juice left, just not enough to power. sort of the old-school reactors. Right. Um so, every year and a half to 2 years, a nuclear reactor is going to close the. doors, and they're going to cycle.

through about a third of their fuel. assemblies, and get rid of those, and. that is the the really high-level. nuclear waste that is the most. concerning, and the stuff that we need. to be the most judicious with. Yes, very. fortunately, they don't just take these. fuel assemblies and toss them out back. into an ever-growing pile. They kind of. do, but there's a little more to it. What they do initially is So, remember, these things are underwater, and they're. underwater for a reason. Yeah. Not just.

for. to to carry out the chain reaction that. produces power, but also to keep them. from going critical. So, they're moved. from the reactor core to what are called. spent fuel pools. I want to say spent. fuel pules every time I say it out loud, but [laughter] can't. So, they're they and they never leave. the water. They're taken down these. special canals um that are uh that. connect the core, the reactor core, to. the spent fuel pools and just add a.

little charm to it. They actually attach. them to the bottom of a gondola that. takes it through the canal. It is very. cute. And then once they get to the. spent fuel pool, um they're basically. dropped into this huge pool, stainless. steel pool that's about um has about 40. ft of water in it. And they're I don't. know, I think about 10 ft or so tall. So. they sink down to the bottom and they. got 20 30 ft of water over them and they. stay there for years because they're so. hot and they're so radioactive, it would.

be insane to do anything else with them. but basically put them in the pools and. let them sit there for a while. Yeah, you can look up a picture of a of a. spent fuel pool and it's really cool. looking. Um. and like you said, I mean, two to five. years just for these things to cool off. Uh they decay a little bit as far as the. radioactivity goes, but um you know, that's a process that for the most. critical stuff that takes, you know, thousands of years. >> Mhm. So it's really just a blip of.

radioactivity that that decays in that. two to five years, but what they're. really doing is cooling that stuff down. because if they even pulled it out to. transport it and didn't do so in a. canal, it seems like it would just. combust, right? Isn't that the idea? Yeah, a a fuel assembly, especially a. bunch of fuel assemblies exposed to air. would just produce so much heat that. they um they would blow up. And when. they blew up, remember these are fairly. recent spent fuel rods, they would. release a lot of really bad stuff. Like.

cesium 137, um that spreads in the air very quickly, it settles into the environment very. quickly, it enters the food chain and it. causes all sorts of problems when it. enters the body and it sticks around for. a while. It's one of the big problems. with nuclear waste. So you want to keep. those spent fuel assemblies underwater. Mhm. uh for basically as long as you. possibly can before you put them into. basically dry dock. And this is where um. essentially what I was saying where they. just toss them out back,

that's what they do, but they put them. into something called a dry cask first. and it's a little a little more. technical than just throwing it into a. pile, but it's in principle roughly the. same thing. That's very funny to me that you keep. liking it to throwing it out back in a. pile. Because that's what they're doing, man. Like these dry casks are it goes. from a pool to a dry cask on the same. site. And they just sit there in the in. the dry cask like, okay, you stay here. until we can figure out what to do with.

you 100 years from now. So for the first couple of decades that. we had this stuff, all of it was just in. those cooling pools. Uh but those pools started to fill up. They're all on site, you know, that's. not like they have to transport them. Right. uh except, you know, very locally. via canal. Mhm. Uh and then they said, "Hey, these pools are filling up. We got. to come up with a better way." Uh they. started looking into the the dry cask. method in the '70s and I think in '86 in. the United States at the Surrey Nuclear. Power Plant in Virginia is where we had.

our first dry storage facility. Uh and these casks are about 20 ft tall, 8 ft in diameter, they weigh about 100. tons. And in that cask is several dozen of. those fuel assemblies and again those. fuel assemblies are made up of the. individual fuel rods that are holding. the pellets. So several dozen of those stacked. together, sealed inside a canister, they bolt it. shut, uh suck out the air and replace it. with a inert gas, and then that steel. canister is surrounded by a thick.

concrete wall. and they throw it out back. Right. They. they stand it up out back. Um and the. inert gas acts as a coolant rather than. using water, which would corrode things. The inert gas can also absorb the. radiation and the heat. Um and then the. concrete they use is like very special. concrete with polymer fibers and added. boron to make it even denser. And then. they also mix in magnetite and barite um. to essentially absorb radioactive. particles. So it's like the dry casks.

are pretty pretty good. As far as I know though, they're only. rated for about 100 years of storage. After that, they're like, "We're not. guaranteeing anything." Um and so I. think you said the first one was sealed. up in 1986? Yeah. So we're at um. 40 years essentially um already ticking. off the clock for those earliest dry. casks that were sealed. Which when you. start to think of it like that, um.

like it makes this like getting to a. solution of what to do long-term. permanent storage essentially, um that that how how important it is to. do it as soon as possible because if we. don't figure out exactly how to do it. and then start building it, that 60. years is going to come and go quicker. than we think. That's a long time to. design something that's one of probably. the most persistent problems that the. world faces environmentally, spent.

nuclear fuel. Yeah, for sure. Uh right now um the US. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, NRC, is uh looking at applications for a. couple of larger. um storage sites here in the US for. those dry casks, one in New Mexico and. one in Texas. Mhm. Uh these are called. consolidated interim storage sites again. because it's just, you know, temporary. And I think uh all over the world about. 70% of the the fuel that's used up is in. pools, about 30% is in these uh dry.

casks. And uh you know, these things supposedly. are are built to withstand natural. disasters and things like that. But like. you said, like they're stored either on. or near the surface. It's not like. they're buried in bedrock, which is. we'll see is maybe a more permanent. solution. Mhm. Um and in fact, that's. that's the one that they're uh. that the US was working on uh inside the. Yucca Mountain in Nevada. And it had NRC. and EPA approval, but uh Nevada said, "Nope.

Uh we don't want that here." Uh Obama. canceled it in 2010. And so far we don't. have a new sort of um again, scare. quote, permanent solution here in the. US. Yeah, the big problem is is in 1987. Congress said Yucca Mountain is the only. site that the the DOE and the NRC can. use to dispose of nuclear waste. You. can't put it anywhere else geologically. um for long-term storage. And then they. never went back and said, "Well, since.

we're not going to put it at Yucca. Mountain, we'll do it here instead." So. it's just totally in limbo. So in in the interim, literally these. interim storage sites, like you said, in. Texas and New Mexico, that's kind of the. next big hope after the dry casks. I. think the one in New Mexico will be. capable of containing 120,000 tons Yeah. >> of spent nuclear fuel, which is a lot, especially considering that the US has. only about 90,000 tons of spent fuel. total. But we're also adding about 2,000 tons a.

year, so in 15 years New Mexico would be. full up. Um so again, you kind of see how this. clock is ticking because it's not like. anyone's saying, "Well, let's wait on. nuclear power any further until we. figure out what to do with this.". They're just it's just a go go go. swinging kind of industry, you know? Uh. maybe we should go go go on a break. Yeah. And uh I promised talk of Finland. earlier and maybe we'll pick up with. that right after this.

>> [music]. >> All right. So we mentioned Finland early. on as being uh kind of the only place in. the world now that is uh close to being. done with a uh. um again, scare quote, permanent. solution. And the reason we keep saying. scare quotes is because. uh you know, you sent me some.

information that was like, "Hey, nobody. knows what's going to happen in. thousands and thousands of years, so you. can't really call it permanent when. there's climate change and potential. like asteroid impacts and things like. that that like we just don't know what's. coming our way. So you can't really say it's permanent.". Right. But they're calling it permanent. even so. Um this one is called Onkalo, which means cavity or pit. And it's the. first. on planet Earth uh geologic repository.

where supposedly, you know, they say that you can store this stuff, you know, close to 1,500 ft down under. the earth in the bedrock. And that. stuff's been there for millions of. years, so this stuff should be pretty. good down there. Yeah, and I mean, they're like in the bedrock, they're. talking about 1,430 ft down, which for reference is 220 times deeper. than the depth of an Olympic swimming. pool. Um the spent fuel assemblies are put. into steel canisters.

And then just to show off, Finland. surrounds them with a 2-in thick uh. layer of copper Yeah. cuz copper won't. corrode in the anaerobic conditions down. 1,430 ft under the ground. They're put. into once they get to that 1,430 ft. depth, they go um into shafts that are. another 30 ft deep, which is 4.6 times. deeper than an Olympic pool. And then they stack the canisters one on. top of each other. Finally, they top off. that 30-ft deep shaft and then they fill.

them with bentonite, which is a clever. thing to add because it's it's. compressed clay. that essentially, you remember those um. little dinosaur sponges that were really. tiny and then you drop water on them and. they turn into like a full-size. Tyrannosaurus Rex? Yeah. It's like that, but it's the clay version of that. When. it makes contact with water, it expands. and as it expands, it will form a seal. around the canisters, and we just have. to hope that they did the math correctly. and it doesn't pop the canisters open. from the surrounding pressure.

Uh I did not get the memo that we have. abandoned Big Macs in favor of. I guess Olympic pools? What what happened? Um. Olympic pool means nothing to me. I just. uh I. You know, it's 6 and 1/2 ft deep. Oh, okay. You know what means something to. me? A Big Mac. I know it does, but um I. don't know. Okay, I'll bring back the. the Big Macs. Well, we don't we can't. pause for you to do that math. No, no, I. mean in the future. >> Okay, I'll bring it back for you here.

there. All right. Okay. Just a little. worried that thought maybe an email. got by me. Well, Jerry commanded I leave the Big. Macs alone. I think he was insistent on. that. Yeah, she said it's old Josh and. tired. Oh, no. Yeah. And you went how. about Olympic pools? She said I don't. care as long as it's not Big Macs. Uh so that site in Finland uh. can store 3,000 canisters, which is. enough to handle Finland. They have five. nuclear reactors, and they said, "Hey,

the whole operational life of these. things, and we'll get to uh operational. life of uh the whole the whole uh. reactor site uh because, you know, you. can't make those go forever either. You. got to shut those things down. eventually. But Finland can take care of. all their business. Uh they said 120 years or so to fill. that thing completely. It'll last. 100,000 years, and after 100,000 years, the idea is that it's no longer. radioactively dangerous. Right, which is. just wrong. Um it depends on what source.

you go to, and it's not clear like one's. from one side and one's from another. side. It it really depends on the. source. Some people say nuclear waste is. really just dangerous for the first few. decades. Right. >> Other people say a thousand years. Other. people say tens of thousands of years. Other people point out that uh a an. isotope of uranium thinks 236 or 8 um. has a half-life of 4.5 billion years. No. So, it depends on who you talk to. just how long uh the stuff is really.

toxic for, but it seems like the stuff. that the people are most concerned of. are things like iodine 129, Right. >> um which has a half-life of 15 million. years. It's not good. But then on the. other hand, you have um cesium 131, I think I mentioned earlier, um that. that is really easy to get into the the. environment, so it causes a lot of. problems. So does iodine 129, but it has. a half-life of I think like 30 years. So, as long and a lot of the worst stuff.

actually goes away while it's in those. pools for the first few years. So, it. really kind of depends on what element. or isotope you're you're worried about, whether it's safe after however many. years or not, or if it ever will be safe. under anything but geological deep time, you know. Yeah, I wonder if they just said. I don't know. 100,000 years sounds like. a long time. Just put that down. You. know, you get the impression on on some. of this that they they are saying that.

because they're saying. like you would think that I mean this is. some really studied science. So, you. would think there would be like figures. bandied about everywhere. Like, oh, this. is how long nuclear waste is dangerous. for, you know, and this is why. It's. just all over the place, and that that. actually is a little bit unnerving. So, I think if anything, you should err on. the side of caution, which is I think. what they're doing with the geological. repositories, which essentially is. saying, "Put it as deep in the earth as. we possibly can, cover it up, walk away,

dusting your hands off, and pretend that. it never even happened.". You know what I bet they do is they say, "How many years in the future do you. think people no longer like care about. their their future family line?" Yeah. That's like 100,000 years. Yeah, that's. great. Put that down. I think it was. 100, and they just multiplied. >> Right. >> thousand. >> [laughter]. >> All right, so we should talk a little. bit about other kinds of nuclear waste. Um we were talking about the high-level. waste. Again, the most problematic, obviously. Uh that is just 3% though of.

total nuclear waste, but uh contributes. 95 95% of the total radioactivity. Um more than 90% of nuclear waste is. low-level. Mhm. And this is stuff that. you know, it might be like the. protective clothes that you wore on. site. It's got a little radioactive dust. on it. Maybe some tools. Maybe some. disposable materials. Uh we have four. locations in the US for disposing of. this low-level stuff. Uh one in South. Carolina, one in Washington state, one.

in Utah, and one in Texas. And this stuff is not. nearly as problematic. It decays to safe. levels in about again, who knows for. sure, but about 20 to 30 years. Well, I. guess in that case, they can test it out. at this point. Uh but that's treated. almost like uh a landfill. It's encased. in concrete and covered with backfill. Yeah. So, yeah, we don't really have to. worry too much about low-level waste, I. think is the upshot of that, right? Yeah. There's also transuranic waste, which.

has incredibly long. um half-lives. Um and these are often. called defense wastes because they are. produced when we produce plutonium for. nuclear weapons. So, sometimes plutonium grabs on to some. of the neutrons we bombarded with and. says, "Oh, let me form some neptunium, which has a half-life of 2.14 million. years." Yeah. Or how about some. americium? Um or plutonium 239 itself. has a half-life of greater than 24,000. years. So, this stuff is really um.

it's really dangerous, but at the same. time, it also is really fissile, meaning. it's ready to go. It's the hit me with. some more neutrons, and let's let's. split some more atoms so we can release. some more energy. Yeah. >> So, it's not necessarily a problem if we. can figure out what to do with it. It's. just that um we haven't quite figured. out how to use it yet. So, in the. meantime, uh it gets dropped into the Waste. Isolation Pilot Plant. And for long-time.

listeners of the podcast, or those. curious enough to go through the back. catalog, which is really great, um we. did an episode on nuclear semiotics. Remember that? Oh, yeah. Which is essentially trying to. figure out how to communicate with. people 10,000 years in the future that. the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant is. really dangerous and to steer clear of. it. That was probably one of my favorite. all-time episodes. Yeah, for sure. Uh. and you know, I'm glad you mentioned. that real quick. If we could just. quickly say. um we have. many many many.

hundreds up to How many episodes do we. have? Couple of thousand? If you include. the short stuff, it's coming up on like. 2,300, I think. Yeah, a lot of people. like the reason we mention this is we. get emails every single day where people. like, "You should do an episode on like. these five things." And we've done four. of the five of those. And so, I think a lot of people don't. realize that, you know, we've been at. this for. close to 18 years. And so, we have a. vast repository of of things. And if you. go to your podcast player, I know on.

Apple Podcasts, there's a little button. you can click at the bottom that says. show all episodes. Um yeah, so. go forth and listen. And and in fact, we. did have one from 2014 called Can. Nuclear Fusion Reactor Save the World? Yeah, so that that was a good one, too. I love that one. That's different than. this. Yeah, that's different than this. Anyway, lots of good back catalog. episodes, so we encourage you to to seek. them out. A little Googling can can go a. long way as well. Yeah, and our. webmaster, Brandon Reed, has put. together a world-class search engine on.

our site, stuffyoushouldknow.com. So, um if you type in any keyword of. something you're looking for, it's. probably going to bring up that episode, maybe some other episodes that we. covered that in. Uh and then you can. listen to it right there on the site, too. So, uh yeah, we do have a very deep back. catalog. It's almost geologic in in in. its stretch. How many Olympic pools deep. is it? Um at least 10, 15 million, I would say. Okay. Uh so, back to the Waste Isolation Pilot.

Plant in New Mexico. Uh here, they. buried this uh transuranic Is that how. you said it? Yeah. Okay. Uh inside a salt layer uh that's a. couple of thousand feet below the. surface, and uh salt doesn't have uh any. maybe a little bit, but basically no. groundwater flow. >> Yeah. And you know, water's your enemy. as far as a corrosive agent with all. this stuff, but the salt is going to. form a a seal, just sort of like that. clay did, around those canisters, and. that's what we do with that stuff.

And I mentioned, you know, decommissioning entire nuclear power. plants and reactors, uh that's something that you have to do. cuz like I said, these things you can't. just uh keep tightening the bolts on. these and expect it to keep running. I. think in fact, in the United States, um 60 years is like the the maximum. limit before they say shut this thing. down. Yeah. And strangely, I did not. realize this, but most of the. contaminated stuff is low-level waste, like, you know, hazard suits and stuff. like that. And even the concrete that.

the the um whole power plant is made. from, I saw that only about 1% of it is. radioactive. The rest can just be. treated as construction waste, essentially. Uh I saw a proposal saying. like, "Don't do that. Like, reuse this. stuff as the concrete like recycle it as. the concrete that seals in the dry casks. and stuff like that." Yeah. There's. actually there seems to be much more of. a push to recycle all this stuff, as. we'll see. But there's a whole process. to decommissioning. Um and one of the.

parts of this process is making sure all. those fuel assemblies, spent or. otherwise, end up in the cooling pool, and then when it's their time to dry. casks. So, what's interesting is a whole. power plant will be taken offline, decommissioned. It's not producing power. any longer, but it still has all those. fuel rods in its spent fuel pool. Yeah. >> It still has dry casks out back and. there's still people watching over that. stuff because we don't have anywhere to. put it. We're literally leaving them in. the spent fuel pools after we turn the.

power off on the nuclear power plants. That's what we're doing with our nuclear. waste right now. Yeah, and there's that water in the. pools. Like let's say you finally get. all of them out of the pool and in dry. cask, then you got a big. pool of. I imagine very soothing nuclear water. Uh that was used as a coolant and you. got to do something with that and what. we do with it and I guess you know. what's basically done with it all over. the world.

is it's cleaned and then. dumped into a waterway, an ocean or a. river or a lake. And most of these. plants are are by a body of water for. this reason. Uh and you know, we'll talk a a little. bit about how this is done, the two main. processes, but. I'm not like a conspiracy guy or hugely. cynical, but I just don't see how that. water can ever be good enough to dump. into an ocean or a lake. The only thing. I've seen is dilution. That that Well, first of all, so they filter out as much.

of the radionuclides as possible, right? >> Yeah. And there's whole processes for. for separating those things out from the. water, but there's still some left. But. the their premise is that they're adding. so much fresh water to it Yeah. >> before they dump it into the ocean, it's. fine. But I think that's a very valid. point. Like. we're we're talking about nuclear. science here and this is how far behind. the environmental part of nuclear. science is lagging that we're just like, "It's fine. Forget about it. We're just.

going to dump it in the ocean." And yes, it's not so bad. that it they're not treating it first. and diluting it first, but it's still. it's like, "Really? That's what we can. do? That's the best we can do right. now?" And the answer is yes. Yeah, I mean, that's. if I don't mention the three-eyed fish. on The Simpsons, we're going to get. emails. So. I guess that we have to mention that, right? You bet, man. Did that fish have. a name? Blinky, I think. Oh, really? >> I'm pretty sure. Didn't it uh blink.

in sequence? >> Yeah. Like blink blink blink? >> Yeah. That's very funny. >> It was a pretty cool fish. Uh yeah, so that's that's what happens. to the water. So maybe we should take. our second break here and talk about a. bit of a brighter future with ideas for. recycling and more right after this. Stuff you should know with Joshua. and Chuck.

Stuff you [singing] should know. Okay, Chuck, so I think I said that um. there's kind of a a new spirit of. recycling that's kind of starting to. sweep the nuclear industry as far as. environmental aspects are concerned, right? Yeah, like you can recycle the. stuff. Yeah, because there's a couple of. things. One is we're when a nuclear fuel. rod is spent, it still has like. like a lot of energy left in it. It's.

just like you said, not enough energy to. power an old-school nuclear reactor. Yeah. >> So one solution is to develop more. advanced reactors Mhm. um that can do. the same things as fuel. They they're. just much more sensitive. Um another. thing is to take those and recycle them. Like extract the usable stuff out of it, form new pellets and just start the. cycle again. And you're doing a couple.

of cool things here. One, you're taking. out the most dangerous part of the. radioactive. nuclear waste and leaving behind far. less dangerous waste that you still have. to figure out what to do with, but it's. not nearly as bad as the stuff that you. took out of it. And then you're also. reusing power that otherwise under the. current plans of just bury it and forget. it, you're burying. all of that energy. All the so much. energy. There's a startup called Oklo. and they um.

they estimate that uh the unused spent. fuel that we're talking about just. burying. thousands of feet under the ground Mhm. could power the United States, the. entire United States for the next 150. years just with the spent nuclear fuel. we have right now. And the idea is to. just bury it and forget about it. And. it's so stupid Mhm. that it actually. could be considered a lucky break that. Yucca Mountain didn't work out back in. 2010 and it's in limbo because it bought.

time for people to come up with other. ideas rather than just bury the stuff. that's just such a total waste. Yeah, Oklo says they can recycle and reuse 94%. of uranium in those spent fuel. assemblies and they're just one of 10. companies. I think they they got a. license from the the Department of. Energy to build a recycling plant in Oak. Ridge, Tennessee. Mhm. Shout out to the. boys. Sure. Uh and they're one of 10. companies that the Department of Energy.

selected as part of their reactor pilot. program to. build these new reactors that can be. powered by recycled uranium. So that. seems like a a. a great way forward. Um one of the. concerns here is that uh. you know, there is a security risk even. though like that stuff is again, like. you said, spent. Um if you can recycle. it to use again even in that small. quantity of unspentness. Mhm. uh you could also make a dirty bomb.

or something for that. So. um it needs to be pretty pretty locked. down. And the same fear except even. worse um is associated with extracting. plutonium um from spent nuclear fuel to. to use that because that is the core of. a nuclear weapon. And that's the kind of thing that a. foreign country that doesn't have a. nuclear program, but really wants one. has the resources to steal Yeah. >> some startup that is is refining and. extracting it in their their facility in.

Tennessee. That's a huge that's actually. from what I can tell the number one. obstacle to um recycling nuclear waste. That that security concern. Yeah, I mean they could fix that though. I guess. I mean, we keep our nuclear. stockpile um safe and we have for this. long, so why can't we apply some of that. same security to these recycling plants? I I don't understand. It just seems like. a Yeah, that's a huge risk, but it's not. something we can't figure out, you know?

>> Well, I I feel like it probably have to. be in uh working in concert with the. government and not just saying like, "All right, Oklo, you got your security. team. I see those people with the black. uh the black eyes odds on. It's all good." Yeah, so one of the. other things we should say I think that. people are kind of wary about is that. these startups that are talking about. new ideas for nuclear power are. typically doing it to get government. buy-in to to help fund them to build.

nuclear plants to power their AI. So. these are like like I think Oklo is. backed by Sam Altman from OpenAI. They. essentially. humanity would benefit as a side effect. from new advanced designs for producing. nuclear power with less waste. That'd be. great. But the intent, the immediate. intent by the people who are doing this. is typically to um produce cheaper power. to power their increasingly massive. artificial intelligences. That's I think.

makes some people wary and including me. Yeah. I mean, uh. combining those businesses is a little. >> [laughter]. >> it's a little worrisome. It is and I. can't I can't let an opportunity pass to. shout out if anyone builds it, everyone. dies by Eliezer Yudkowsky and Nate. Soares. It's so good where they just lay. out the a very straightforward example. of how AI could just get out of control. and how we humans would be in big. trouble. And yet, it's not like they're.

AI haters. They're just basically saying. like, "We're going at this at such a. terrible pace so recklessly that we need. to put the brakes on globally and figure. out how to do it safely and then do it. and then humanity can benefit from it.". So they're not like Luddites or anything. like that and they know what they're. talking about. It's just a good book. Yeah, I well, you know, with things. how things are going these days, I could. use a little pick-me-up. So maybe a. little light reading. Maybe I'll start. that. It again, it is. Like you could. read it in a day, man.

A very depressing day. It's good though. It's it's really interesting too cuz. it's also a peek inside the current. state of the AI industry, too. Yeah. >> insiders. They know what's going on. All right, so I mentioned earlier these. deep geological repositories uh that the. they've almost finished in Finland. Like. those aren't the best idea cuz who knows. what's going to happen long-term here on. planet Earth. >> Mhm. Uh but they're. you know, extracting the most highly. radioactive parts of this waste from. everything else.

seems like. that's headed toward like a a pretty uh. a pretty good solution. So they don't. know quite what to do with it afterward, but one way of doing it is something. called transmutation, right? Yeah, I thought this was kind of genius. So essentially it's taking the extracted. most radioactive parts of nuclear waste. and tossing it into a particle. accelerator and bombarding it with. neutrons. Yeah. And by doing so, you. actually either they you either change.

them a neutron knocks some proton or. some something off of one of these off. of each of these atoms Yeah. >> it into something far less radioactive. that might decay much more quickly, or. they grab onto a neutron and they. transform in that way and become. something that might be much more stable. that isn't radioactive at all. And so, you're taking the really radioactive. stuff and you're degrading it really. quickly in a particle accelerator. And. if you do it correctly, I guess I I In.

principle, I think all of this is. theoretical right now. Yeah. You could. actually produce energy while you're. doing this. So, while you're getting rid. of waste, you could be producing energy. from the. Bombardment. I love this thought. process. Uh another one that holds a lot of. promise is actually glass and ceramics. Uh glass and ceramics can both trap uh. those radionuclides that you were. talking about and for like a long period. of time. And that you know, the idea is.

that you um you store this stuff in. these like like uh glass logs or ceramic. logs, basically. >> Mhm. Uh glass doesn't degrade very. easily. Um forms a very tight bond. that's kind of like a force field that. says nothing's getting in or or getting. out. Um it's a process called uh. vitrification, but it's not just regular. old glass. It's like you know, sort of. heavy-duty nuclear-containing glass. Yeah, and what's cool about it is the. glass logs don't act as like container.

that you put waste in. You melt the. glass-making minerals and the waste. together and it forms the glass log. together. So, like Yeah. you're actually. trapping the radioactive particles in. glass, not inside glass as part of. glass. It's really genius. Yeah, yeah. I. thought that was clear, but yeah, it's. uh thanks for clearing that up. >> You're welcome. And you can also do the. same thing with ceramics, too, apparently. Yeah, ceramics uh work just as good. Um. we can also recycle the uh fissile.

material. Mhm. Uh we're trying to you. know, the goal there is to recover. uranium and plutonium, the the main. materials main fissile materials. Uh and again, separating out the most. radioactive. parts of the waste product is is what. you're doing is you're trying just to to. make it all less um. bad, less radioactive. For sure. And. then, hopefully doing something with it. like turning it back into pellets. Like. I saw to make a mixed um.

uranium-plutonium oxide MOX fuel. Mhm. You can use eight old pellets to create. one new one. So, it actually is pretty. efficient. Uh and you can keep doing. that over and over again. Um. until essentially, you just don't have. enough left to to actually produce any. energy. And one of the other points that. I saw, Chuck, is that. even if we can't figure out how to reuse. the fuel that we've isolated and. extracted from the spent nuclear fuel. waste,

just being able to do that would reduce. it by so much that it would take a huge. amount of our problem for figuring out. what to do with the waste off of the. table. So, like if that stuff is 1% of. all nuclear waste and the United States. has 90,000 tons of it, Yeah. that would. drop [clears throat] it down to just 900. tons of really problematic stuff that we. had to figure out how to get rid of, not. 90,000. So, there's I mean, aside from. that security risk thing, there's really. no reason not to process nuclear waste.

to get the high-energy stuff out of. there for one reason or another. Yeah, for sure. I think that's it, man. Yeah. Go forth and recycle your uranium. [music] pellets in your home. Uh that's right, Chuck. And uh since. Chuck talked about recycling uranium. pellets, obviously, it's time for. listener mail. Uh this is from Kelly Gismondi. Hey. guys, I'm a lawyer in Louisiana. Started. listening to Stuff You Should Know a few. years ago and currently working my way. through the backlog and enjoying every.

minute. Uh just got done listening to. your solitary confinement episode and. was thrilled to hear you talk about the. Angola 3. I have represented folks from. Angola. One of the most interesting. stories from Angola that was recently. published by Calvin Duncan, who was. wrongly [music] uh wrongfully convicted, by the way, is called The Jailhouse. Lawyer, and uh which is a deep dive. [music] into um what uh life is like for. inmate counsel. Wow. Uh Inmate Counsel. are a group of incarcerated folks who. learn and then teach others uh the law, draft motions and legal filings for.

others. >> [music]. >> who are incarcerated and help advocate. for those incarcerated as a whole. Uh. this is an essential service for the. incarcerated community because there is. no right to free counsel for. post-conviction relief. And many people. who have been convicted of crimes cannot. afford legal fees for post-conviction. [music] relief. >> Man. Uh essentially, if you are poor and. have been wrongfully convicted of a. crime, or if there's another uh legal. issue with your conviction, often the. only way to get legal help is to work. with inmate counsel. [music] Uh they're. incredibly effective and they've helped. get thousands of incarcerated folks.

across Louisiana home to their. communities. Would love to hear an. episode on this. Uh thanks for all you. do for my brain. That is uh sincerely. from Kelly Gismondi. And Kelly, that may. be a good short stuff. There's not a ton. out there, but uh. I I betcha we could find 15 minutes. [music] easy. Yeah, let's do it, man. Cuz that is definitely, as far as I'm. concerned, an overlooked issue in Yeah. in the justice system, for sure. Yep. Uh well, God bless you, Kelly, for. what you're doing, your work helping.

people who uh may have gotten screwed. over by the system. Uh and if you want to be like Kelly and. email us to let us know what you're. doing to help your fellow person, >> [music]. >> we want to hear about that. You can send. it to stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from. iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. to your favorite shows.