What's the deal with Swiss neutrality? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's. here, too. This is Stuff You Should. Know, everybody. >> That's right. We're talking about one of. the two things Switzerland is known for. >> What? >> It's not the cheese. >> Okay, then chocolate? >> Oh, that's true.

>> Three things. >> Okay, um cuckoo clocks? >> Uh four things. >> Beautiful mountains? >> Five things. Beautiful people. >> Rösti? >> Six things, seven things. All right, let's just cut to the chase then. There's a lot to Switzerland, everybody, and this is just one of myriad things we. could talk about. And that is Swiss neutrality, and I. think this came to mind because of. the recent. uh talks between the United States and. Iran. >> Mhm. >> Uh and I knew Switzerland was was had a.

a role to play there, and I'm like, "What the heck is up with that country?". >> Did you say that out loud? >> I think I did, and Ruby was like, "What. country, Dad?". >> It's a good idea, Chuck. I had no idea. about this, and I'm not sure if I ever. would have thought of doing one on this, but it's actually pretty interesting. >> Yeah, and thanks to Olivia, by now I. understand it. >> Yeah, um and we should say that right. before we started recording, Jerry. announced that she is the Switzerland of. Stuff You Should Know.

>> Jerry likes to think she is. >> [laughter]. >> Well, then who who would be the. Switzerland? >> We have no Switzerland. >> Oh, okay. Who are you? >> Uh. I don't know. >> I'm a mix of Turkmenistan and Denmark. >> Okay. All right, great. >> Uh and this is where we're going to. leave this because let's get back to. talking about Switzerland, which is, like you said, known for many things, um. and this neutrality thing. I had no idea, but it is in stark.

contrast to how Switzerland used to be. during the Middle Ages or medieval times. if you're one of those people who goes. to medieval times. >> Yeah, and you know, we should point out. too, Switzerland's not the only neutral. country. I think Olivia found 20 to 25. um, basically [clears throat] neutral. countries around the world, but. Switzerland it's a real like when you. think of neutral countries, I think most. people would say Switzerland because. they taken. uh, not just neutrality as a stance, but. like a really active neutrality and.

like, "Hey, come and settle your warring. disputes here in our friendly confines. or your financial disputes in our. friendly confines.". >> Yeah, as a matter of fact, Switzerland. is the only country that comes to mind. when I think of neutrality. I had. honestly no idea that other countries. were officially neutral. >> Yeah. >> Like Ireland is. Did you know that? >> No, but I believe it. >> Okay. Well, at any rate, yes, they are. the standard, the gold standard, the. Nazi gold standard.

>> Oh. >> of neutral countries. I think that's. fair to say. So, uh, like I said, the whole thing. kind of it I think it was officially. neutral as of like the 1810s, right? >> Yeah, and then 1851, I think, when they. formally uh, became a country, but. >> Right. >> But yeah, but you promised to talk to. the Middle Ages and it is interesting. that we can go back to the 13th century. to kind of see the beginnings of this. >> Yeah, apparently this is where William. Tell comes from, too. Did you know that?

>> Um, no. >> I know shamefully little about William. Tell. I was reading a I think it's. swissinfo.ch. Um, they're like the English-speaking. outlet for Switzerland. And this article. this guy was writing, he's like, "We all. know the story of William Tell, blah, blah, blah." And I was like, "Actually, I don't know anything that you just. mentioned.". >> Yeah, agreed. He has a heck of an. overture. That's all I know. >> Yeah, apparently so I here in the United. States everybody we're taught that.

William Tell like shot the apple off of. his kids head to show off like his. skills. Apparently he was forced to do. that by some evil evil Austrian like. overlords who had taken over Switzerland. and William Tell is actually a. resistance fighter who helped. Switzerland overthrow those Austrian. overlords. >> Fantastic. >> But he comes out of this time, right? So. Switzerland like you said until the. 1850s or 60s was a confederation. It's. still known as the Swiss Confederation.

cantons which would be like states, provinces, maybe counties. but they're independent little. municipalities that all together form. Switzerland or the Swiss Confederation. and that's where the whole thing starts. back in 1291 there was a an alliance. between three of these cantons. Now. there's like 25. Uri, Schwyz, Schweiz maybe? >> Yeah. >> And Unterwalden Walden? >> Walden, yeah. >> And. and they formed the Waldstatte alliance.

>> Yeah. Stadte. Stadte? Wald- Waldstatte. Alliance I would say I think. I don't. know if they even pronounce it. >> You don't speak German. >> Well, I know that that gives you a. certain thrill but I think the umlaut. would make it Stadte Stadte Stadte. >> Say it again. Say the whole thing. >> The Waldstatte alliance? >> Very nice. >> Uh. these were basically free peasants at. the time. Um and they you know partially. the reason this all goes down is because.

of their location in the Alps. >> Mhm. >> Kind of isolated from a lot of Europe. >> Mhm. >> Uh and so they were isolated these free. peasants from a lot of the uh. feudal hierarchies all over Europe. And. they were they were like in a good like. geographic position. Because they were there in those. mountain passes uh with Italy to the. south and. you know German speaking peoples to the. north and so they were there as like hey. we're kind of here in the middle so. that kind of started the whole thing of.

like hey everyone wants to get along. with them because they needed them. >> Yeah, they've they've from time to time. served as a very useful buffer which has. helped other outside nations support. their bid for neutrality right and just. to be left alone and at the same time. that isolation like you said. from time to time some of their. neighbors would break it and try to. basically take over Switzerland and. would to varying successes from time to. time like I said. But. the isolation and the fact that they.

were mostly independent made Switzerland. or still to this day that gave them this. fiercely independent streak as a nation. Um that that they see themselves as like. it's the a different thing. They're. separate thing. They're nothing like a. typical nation whatsoever. They're their. own thing and one of the big things you. can almost call it a brand is their. neutrality. >> That's right and when they formed that. Waldstätte alliance it wasn't the. biggest deal because that that had. always kind of been the deal with them.

so it was really just renewing these. ties that had already been around for a. long time. Um but everyone later on would say oh. actually that's kind of when Switzerland. started coming together as what would. later be a country. >> Yeah. >> Uh and then more cantons came aboard the. alliance got a little bigger. and started getting referred to as the. Old Swiss Confederation. >> Mhm. >> Uh not that not the new one that we have. now and that's when they started. becoming like a real. kind of piece.

of the military puzzle that was going on. all around them. >> Yeah, I'm very I'm certain when when. back in the 13th century they were. confused when people called it the Old. Swiss Confederation cuz it was present. to them. >> [clears throat]. >> They're like, "What are you talking. about?" So, it was around this time that. the Swiss actually became um. militarily mighty. Uh the Swiss actually were known for. their warlike tendencies and their. excellent fighting skills. So much so. that as they kind of grew and started to.

take um part in European wars during the. medieval era and the very, very early. modern era, apparently Niccolo Machiavelli referred. to them as the new Romans. This. conquering group of incredibly. well-trained fighters that were willing. to take on the world essentially. That's. That was the image of Switzerland. It's. like the. total opposite of how we view. Switzerland today. >> Yeah. Yeah, totally. Uh and you know, they had some pretty decent military.

upsets leading up to uh the beginning of. the 16th century. And that's when they. started to kind of move away from that. idea because there were some. really big um countries and countries. getting together and like forming larger. alliances around them. And they were you. know, they were still even though they. had some military might, they realized. they were probably smallish compared to. other places that were popping up around. them. >> Sure. >> Uh notably the Holy Roman Empire, of. course, France, Spain, and Italy kind of. all over the place over there trying to.

get um at least control in the 16th. century of the Duchy of Milan. And that's when the Swiss came out and. they're like, "Hey, you know, the. different cantons had different ideas on. who they should support.". >> Right. >> Uh which would kind of become a. recurring theme of like um. like who they should have allegiance to. and not necessarily agreeing, so maybe. remaining neutral was the best uh path. of least resistance, I guess. But in. this case at the time, they started out. backing France, then switched to the Italians, and then.

at the Battle of uh Marignano in 1515, the French kind of kicked their butts, the French and Venetians, and they were like, "All right, we lost. 10,000 infantry people, so like, maybe. we need to really rethink putting our. eggs in baskets of other countries.". >> Yeah, that 10,000 was half of the entire. Swiss military force was killed at this. one battle. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, it was a really big deal, so. much so that they were like, "Yeah, um.

this whole war-like thing is not really. working out all of a sudden. Let's. explore the idea of being neutral." And. it wasn't just that, but from everything. I've seen, that battle was a decisive. turning point for the mentality among. the Swiss about, you know, taking part. in European wars. But there were other. things that kind of contributed to that. decision. One was the um the Protestant. Reformation, uh because different cantons in. different parts of the country uh. supported or were Protestant or were.

Catholic, right? >> Yeah. >> And that's a very sticky situation when. you're trying to keep these cantons part. of a confederation, right? There's no. central government that's telling the. cantons, "No, you can't do this. No, you. can't do that." They're a confederation, essentially, so they're all still quite. independent, but they're all still also. Swiss. So, that in and of itself meant. like, how can you participate in. European wars when half of your cantons. want to go to war with one another, >> Yeah. >> you know? And the wars out in the rest.

of Europe are about be are between. Protestants and Catholics. Like, you. just can't do that. So, the Swiss said, "You know what? Let's just stay. neutral." And this is a good example of. how being neutral has literally kept the. country together many times over the. years. Like, where they're like, "Our. differences is our differences of. opinion are too great right now among. the cantons, so we're just going to not. have an opinion officially as a. country.". >> Yeah, for sure. Uh another thing that. helped was they got a pretty sweet.

financial deal out of the. uh end of the conflict with France in. 1516. That peace treaty gave them access. to French markets. They had I think internally they were. like, "I'm not sure if they notice, but. we can do business with France now and. we could already do business business. with other people, so. let's just keep flying under the radar. here financially speaking cuz we got the. best of both worlds.". So they had no incentive to like. financial incentive to to bust up uh. I almost said bust that move, but that. wouldn't be the right term, I don't.

think. >> [clears throat]. >> Bust a move on French markets? >> Yeah, sure. >> Okay, yeah. So yes, this is where their. business um. uh. image also started to. Yeah. This is where the three-piece suit. was invented in the um peace treaty. between France and Europe in 1516. >> And you see, here's a great example. I. have no idea whether to believe you or. not at this point in my life. >> I don't know whether to believe me or. not even. >> [laughter]. >> All right, at least we're at least we're.

>> aligned. So there's This is a I don't know if. you're picking up on this, Chuck. This. is a time of frequent wars across. Europe. And that's the problem. When you. put authoritarian despots in charge with. limitless riches, they the elites want to compete among. themselves because they want to have the. biggest castle or I want to have the. most people at my command. I want to. torture the most people, right? And they. start competing with each other and they. send their own people off to war with. one another. It's a great lesson today.

It was uh something to learn from and it. happened a lot during this era. >> Yeah, I mean there were a lot of threats. to kind of break up this neutrality. Uh. the 30 Years' War was a big one in 1618. uh because again, there were divided um. sympathies I guess within those cantons. uh because of what you talked about but. religion for the most part. And if you got involved in that war as. Switzerland, that would have kind of. torn apart this confederation that they.

had worked so hard to keep together. >> Right. >> And so again, they were like, "Hey, let's we got to keep a good thing going. here. Let's remain neutral." Uh and in. 1646, uh the the Swedes were um sort of. threatening them. And so they were like, "Well, we need to. at least have an army though for. national defense. Like we we can be. neutral, but we can't be we can't be. rubes.". >> Sure. >> So, each canton had like quotas for. troops that they had to supply and. that's that's when they uh were like. kind of formed that army of uh for.

defense purposes, which still exists. today. >> So, yeah, they created an army in 1646. and then 2 years later, really big thing. happened. It's It's just enormous. I'm. really impressed. There was this guy. named uh Johann Rudolf Wettstein. Yeah? >> Sounds great. >> He was the mayor of Basel, right? And. the 30 Years' War came to an end in 1648. through the Peace of Westphalia. And Wettsteinstein. showed up to the to the Peace of.

Westphalia treaty negotiations. He said, "I'm glad you guys are doing. this. This is fantastic. Keep Keep up. the good work. Also, I want to talk to. everybody about something. Even though. I'm just the mayor of Basel, I want to. make sure that Switzerland is. represented here cuz we're just neutral. And we think that we should no longer be. um. under the the thumb of the Holy Roman. Empire. We think that we should have. recognition as an independent nation and.

also we want to be neutral, too. And he. got it passed through. Like they he they. he gained recognition from these major. powers of Europe uh that Switzerland was. now its own country. Holy Roman Empire, sorry, you just lost Switzerland. >> Yeah, I mean that was. I'm not sure how he pulled that off. actually at the time, you know. >> With a lot of chocolate, I'll tell you. that. >> Yeah. Cuckoo clocks. >> Mhm. >> Uh so about a hundred years after that, there was another threat to their.

neutrality. This was 1790s, late 1790s, uh when the French Revolutionary. Republic and Austria and Russia were. going at it, and they kind of eat that. battle into Switzerland some. And. uh. I think after that victory, that was. like 1798, close to 1800, uh the French. government created a. uh the Helvetic Republic, a sister. nation, uh and that covered a lot of. Switzerland. >> Yeah, they basically said, "Oh, oh, we.

just happened to create this country. that just is within the borders of. Switzerland. Sorry, Switzerland.". >> Some overlap there, guys. >> Yeah, they basically turned it into a. territory, and this is pretty much par. for the course for Napoleon. Um he he really kind of sealed the deal. when he sent an army to occupy. Switzerland, I guess to protect his new. made-up country of Helvetic I want to. say Helveticus so bad. Um. but. he essentially plundered Switzerland for. the next decade uh in resources and uh.

humans. And he actually, when he invaded. Russia in 1812, he brought some Swiss. troops with him, and they did not do. very well there. >> Yeah, they sent 9,000 troops, and 700, only 700 came home. >> Yeah. >> Uh. you know, the the tide finally turned. against Napoleon, and so they were like, "All right, thank God, we got rid of. this guy.". >> Yeah. >> Uh and so after the Battle of uh. uh Leipzig in, I believe, 1813, they.

were like, "All right, we're we're back. to being neutral again. Uh we do have our military force, but. we're not going to fight anymore." And. in fact, in December of 1813, when the. uh Austrian Imperial Army was like, "All. right, we want to march through your. country to go to France." They're like, "Fine, go right ahead. We'll just let. you do that.". >> Yeah, they just turned their backs and. whistled. So, one other thing happened. There was another. another guy named Charles Pictet de. Rochemont. And also in 1813 during the.

peace treaty that ended well, Napoleon's. reign, I guess, essentially. He showed. up and he said, "Also, we want to make. sure that we're still getting. recognized. We're now the Swiss. Confederation." And everybody said, "Do. you mean the old Swiss Confederation?". And de Rochemont said, "No, no, no. This. is brand new. It's a new Swiss. Confederation. You guys are going to. love it." And he was a first just the. the mayor of Geneva, which was actually. a city-state, independent city-state,

part of a canton now. Um. And I guess he did such a good job that. he ended up representing Switzerland as. a whole. And this is where their their. perpetual neutrality was established at. the 1814 Congress of Vienna. >> Yeah, that's right. And that was it. I. mean, people generally look back to 1815. as like that's when everything really. officially kind of started. Um when they. became a unified federal state in 1848.

was when the final stamp was stamped. >> Right. So, now we reached the point. where modern Switzerland is born and it. is officially neutral. It's a sovereign. nation, but it's still a confederation. Don't forget that. >> That's right. And that is where we're. going to take a break and we'll be right. back with more. Swiss neutrality right after this. >> [music].

[music]. >> Sufficient. >> [music]. >> So, Chuck, we're in Switzerland now. It's a nice established country and part. of. >> It is very lovely. Um part of. what you said it needs and should have. is a military for for defense. And still. today it has a military. In fact, I. believe this month the military. assembled like 4,000 troops along the.

border um. to basically just keep any of the um. ne'er-do-wells at the G7 summit spilling. over cuz the G7 summit's in France right. now. >> That's right. >> But their I guess military presence. dates back I mean, much further, obviously, but the the modern version of. it is from like the 19th century, I. think. >> Yeah. And, you know, they have to abide. by uh. certain rules that have happened since. then, like the the Hague Convention of.

1907. If you're a neutral country, which. I guess there's like 23 or so, now that. we've learned that, uh they're they. can't fight in a war. Uh they can't. support any other countries' warring. parties. They can't send them weapons. like most other countries do. They can't. send money to help out in a war. Uh they can't say, "Hey, we'll host a a. base here or your foreign troops can. stay here for a little while.". Um. so, you know, they have to remain truly. neutral under the Hague Convention,

which they were I'm sure they were quite. delighted to to make it official. >> Mhm. >> Um but they uh. again, they maintain that army because. they have to have their own defense. Uh and also, we should point out that. the Swiss Army knife uh kind of came. around in the in the 19th century, the. 1880s. >> Mhm. >> It's like a literal, you know, if you. didn't think the Swiss had an army, they. had a knife named after them. >> Uh yeah. >> Of course they had an army. >> The for sure. And it it I mean, it. really is the Swiss Army knife. They.

just call it the Army knife, I'm. guessing in Switzerland, but. >> The old army knife. >> Swiss Army knife. >> Yeah. >> Like the cake roll. Oh god, I forgot about the cake roll. That's another thing. Yeah, well I don't. know that they know that Little Debbie. is putting their their name on its cake. rolls cuz I think they would have a. problem with that. Yeah. Yeah, look it up Switzerland. You're not. going to be happy. So World War. was. a threat. Obviously all of Europe was.

fighting but I I don't believe. Switzerland was drawn into it much. World War. was a much greater threat. They had to. work much harder. to stay neutral and to keep the other. countries out and when Germany occupied. France all of a sudden Switzerland was. surrounded by the axis and it was a very. nervous time and they managed to. to amass an army of I think 400,000. troops.

in the Alps and they let everybody know. we're staying neutral but if you come. here we're going to beat you badly. And. it generally worked. I saw that they. were accidentally bombed several times. That other powers basically said oh we. didn't mean to bomb you sorry but you. know we killed a bunch of your people. but for the most part you know it worked. in that they they were never invaded by. anyone. Yeah, for sure. You know just because you're neutral. doesn't mean that you have like you're.

not taking part in anything to do with. the war so they've as you'll see we'll. talk about a little later they have a. long tradition of receiving refugees. like war refugees. But kind of shamefully like the US and a. lot of other places during. in the aftermath or during World War. they. they prevented a lot of Jewish people. from from the Holocaust from finding. refuge there. So that's that's one of the sort of dark. spots. Sure. And then still today if you are a man.

between ages 18 and 34 you have to. enlist in the military. Or if you're a. conscientious objector and say, "I'm not. carrying a gun around." You can also. there's um civilian services you can. enlist in. And then if you're a woman, you can also do it, but it's voluntary. You're not required to. And I think. today they have 150,000 active and. reserve troops. And just like back in. the day, each canton um has to to. fulfill a quota and they have their own. civilian defense forces.

>> That's right. Which is, you know, it would be foolish not to at this point. in world history. >> For sure. So, yeah. There's still a. military despite the fact that they're. neutral. I feel like we've managed to. drive that point home. >> Uh that's the stuff you should know, eh. So, um. this whole idea that we mentioned kind. of early on as as Switzerland taking an. active role in neutrality and not just. being like, "Hey, just leave us alone.". Where they're like, "We will host your.

uh your your dealings with one another. and we become a center of arbitration. for the world, basically.". Um that started out basically in like. the mid-19th century. Um the Geneva and Basel Chambers of. Commerce said, "Hey, let's get a system. together and let's make this like let's. get serious about this and put some. structure around what we want to do.". And they got their first stab at that, I. guess, in 1872. when uh it was around the Civil War when. uh negotiators from the United States.

and Great Britain went to Geneva and. worked out what were called the Alabama. Claims, which were um about losses. caused by these British-built. Confederate ships, one of which was the. Alabama, uh during the Civil War, uh. Britain ended up having to pay damages. there. And that started the whole system of. like saying, "Hey, Geneva's pretty nice, you guys. Uh we're we're pretty chill. And why Why you just come here to settle. your disputes in our courtroom? The. People's Court.

>> [laughter]. >> And then the bongo drums started. >> I did not um see Alabama coming up in an. episode on Swiss neutrality, did you? >> I did not, either. >> So, since then and like you said, they. literally wrote the rules on. arbitration. Um and since then like they. have had some pretty high-profile. arbitration meetings. So much so that. they eventually. worked what are called the good offices, which are. everything from like a meeting place to.

mediation services for arbitration. Um. the it's worked into the Swiss Federal. Constitution. So, they they like that's a huge part of. Switzerland maintaining its neutrality. is saying like come take advantage of. our neutral territory. Like this is a a. place where you can meet and work out. your differences. Let's all just work. out our differences, guy. And I thought. Chuck, one other thing that they do, which is I really surprising, they represent the interests of. countries who are not speaking to each.

other. So, I think that they represent. Iran and Canada. So, let's say Iran's like, "We're not. even talking to you, Canada, anymore. Um we're going to get Switzerland to. meet with you. We're not even going to. be in the same room with you." They do. that for several different countries. >> Yeah. I mean, it's uh they provide a. service. I wonder what kind of like. do they charge a fee for this? >> Oh, I'm I'm sure that there's fees. involved. >> Sure, even if it's just like you know,

the hotels in Geneva are very. overpriced. >> Dude, I'll bet you their like like um. coffee service at these meetings and. conferences are amazing. >> Yeah, I mean, cuz they got they got to. get something out of it besides. neutrality. >> Sure. So, I. you know, I knew like. the Swiss were known for being very. business-like. I did not realize the. extent that that is true. I believe that the Swiss mentality is. generally like, "Yes, it's business. We.

conduct our business um appropriately, fairly. Like, we are really good at it. Uh we have good contracts. Like, we are. really business-like." And that that is. like, yes, that they're probably getting. something for all of the services. they're they're providing because that's. business. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh yeah, I bet you're. absolutely right. Uh they're also known. for their um real push toward uh. humanitarian aid all around the world, uh especially during times of conflict.

Yeah. Uh like, no no less than the uh. Bread Cross, which is still based in. Geneva. Uh and if you look at their symbol, that. it's the inverse of the Swiss flag. Um. and that's no accident, but that all. started out uh because of a Genevan. businessman named Henry Dunant. >> And St. Henry? >> Yeah, for real. Uh in 1859, he was uh in. Solferino, a. town in the north of Italy. He was there. for work, and he saw the aftermath of a.

battle uh between French and Austrian, saw like 40,000, you know, dead and. wounded soldiers all about him, and it. really really moved him and put a dent. in his psyche, I think, because he got. like personally involved, started. helping out locals, started providing medical assistance, dressing wounds, like, you know, literally himself doing this, and spoke to French officials, was like, "Hey, you got a bunch of Austrian. surgeons who are POWs, like, let them. out and let them help their own people.

and let them help your people.". And it it moved him to the point where. he kind of dedicated his life to it. He. wrote a book called A Memory of uh. Solferino, and talked about these experiences and. the creation of these committees that. would train volunteers, and that's the. stuff that would become the first. National Red Cross Society. >> Yeah. Um if you're like, "Okay, that's pretty. impressive." Well, prepare for this one, too. If you've heard of the Geneva. Convention of the treatment of prisoners. of war,

>> Oh, yeah. >> Well, that was his work. He started. arguing and lobbying for some sort of. international agreements on how to treat. the sick and the wounded and the. prisoners of war, and that became the. first Geneva Convention in 1864. >> Pretty great. Uh and the YMCA that you know and love. He didn't create the YMCA, but Dunant. really made it a global global movement, and the World Alliance of the YMCA is. also still in Geneva. >> So, two things when I hear YMCA, I.

obviously think Village People, but I. also think of this great moment from a. Simpsons episode where Lionel Hutz is. staying there at the YMCA, and he's. asleep sitting down with his back up. against the wall with his knees pulled. up to his chest and his elbows on his. knees and his head down, so you can. imagine. And I think Bart and Lisa walk up and. and wake him up, and. he suddenly comes awake, and he has a he. brandishes a knife, and he says, "Don't. touch my stuff.". Like that's he was staying at the YMCA.

Like that was his experience there. >> That's pretty good. I love it. Oh, man, Lionel Hutz was the best. >> Uh yes, he was. Uh so, if you're like, "Okay, um still Dunant's impressive, but. he was probably also just some crazy. billionaire who just wanted to make a. good name for himself." Wrong. As a matter of fact, all of this. humanitarian work that he focused on. led to. uh him becoming bankrupt. He wasn't. paying enough attention to his business, and so he lost his business, became. bankrupt, and essentially unknown for a.

couple of decades until 1895. There was a journalist who's like, "Oh. my god, this guy I know this guy, and. he's living like obscurely in poverty. I. need to let everybody know about him and. he was one of the co-recipients of the. first Nobel Peace Prize in 1901. Quite. rightfully so, but this guy was. seriously, legitimately a good person. >> Yeah, we've seen This is kind of one of. my favorite things. We've seen it happen.

quite a bit in history where someone has. done great things, but we're sort of. lost to history and then. some journalist or somebody in his or. historian dug him up. Well, not. literally. Uh but, you know, dug up their legacy. and brushed it off and said, "Hey, how. about this awesome person that we kind. of forgot about?". >> Yeah, it's nice when they're still. alive, too, so they can get the. recognition. And maybe you're like, "Okay, I'll bet he owned slaves or. something like that." Nope, he was um. agitating for the abolition of slavery. Or he was a gun nut. Nope, agitating for.

disarmament. Like he he he was he he was. the a humanitarian as as if there was. ever a humanitarian. >> Yeah. Uh all right, I'd say we take another. break. Is that good? >> Yeah, I think we're we're at a good. break. Let's all just think about how. great Henry Dunant is. >> All right, let's spend a few moments. doing that and we'll be right back. >> [music].

[music]. >> All right, I dwelled on the uh. on the life of Henry Dunant and I feel. even better than I did a few minutes. ago. >> Same. >> But we're going to move on and talk a. little bit about some of the, you know, it's not all I talked about, you know, one sort of. darkness. uh and that they didn't allow Jewish. refugees uh en masse during World War.

II. Um there's some other stuff that. they have on their record that's not the. greatest in the world. >> Mhm. >> Um I guess we should talk about Nazi. gold a little bit, but uh in order to. talk about that, we should probably talk. a little bit about just their you know, you talked about them being, you know, brilliant business people and a center. for business around the world. Um, that. happened because after they became. formally neutral in 1815, um, they said, "You know what? This is. probably a good place for people to put. their money.

uh because we're neutral, it's safe. Anytime there's a lot of chaos around. the world, like with World Wars, everyone knows that they can come here. and do some banking. Uh. we may not be like, you know, like a. world banking center um with like by the. likes of London. or Berlin, but we can become. uh pretty quietly powerful in our own. way, especially if we tell everyone that. all their business will be super. private, if you know what I'm saying.". >> Yeah, they put an emphasis on that kind.

of thing where like if you open an. account in Switzerland for decades and. take most of the 20th century, in fact, if not longer, um. you could have a secret bank account. where like nobody could really figure it. out. And that's it's not fully true. Like I think if say the US government. came with a subpoena to find out who the. owner was of a specific account, the. Swiss would cooperate with them, but for. the most part this was secret stuff, right? Um, and that was how they made.

their name as an international banking. center, but also because like um. again, they are really, really good at. business. So, you knew that this was. like your money was safe, not just. because Switzerland was stable, but. because their banking system was. incredibly stable. So, a lot of people. took advantage of that. Um, dictators, money launderers, eventually drug. dealers, terrorists, um. uh. basically anyone, Jackie Chan, anyone. you can think of um who wanted to evade.

taxes, launder money, or just wanted to. have their money stashed away, you know, quietly, and weren't really breaking any. laws. Um, though you went to. Switzerland. Like it's it's almost a a. trope. I think it is a trope. This the. secret Swiss bank account that you would. have money transferred to. >> Oh, yeah. That officially became. official with the Federal Banking Act of. 1934. Uh, to the utter delight of. screenwriters everywhere, uh, then into. come.

Uh, but that unfortunately dried up in. the 1990s when uh, they were like, all. right, no more no more secret accounts. I guess we got to get rid of that uh, provision. Uh, but yeah, it worked its way into a. lot of movies over the years. Uh, just like, you know, a numbered. Swiss bank account. That's growing up. with especially like Cold War movies and. stuff like that, spy thrillers. >> Mhm. >> There was always like a secret Swiss. bank account, I feel like, at play. >> They ended up um, removing that ability. um, from. the Swiss banking system because it.

started to come out just how. how many bad guys. >> Right. >> it. Were and Switzerland was allowing it. to happen. So, if their banking system. took a hit, um, you know, its image did. And they're like, we can't afford to do. that. We're not making enough money off. of drug dealers and terrorists. We need. to, you know, brush our image back up. So, that's when they got rid of that. >> Yeah. Uh, and their image probably. needed a little brushing up because, you. know, I think I mentioned something.

about Nazi gold or if I didn't, I'm. mentioning it for the first time now, but they uh, because of World War II, they the Swiss. National Bank ended up buying about $440. million. in Nazi gold, which was basically, you know, laundering that gold. >> Yeah. >> that was plundered, uh, that we talked. about a lot of times, like the the. plundering of World War II of the. Germans, >> Mhm. >> uh, from, you know, different countries, uh, brutally from Holocaust victims. I know. we've mentioned stuff like gold dental.

fillings and stuff. >> Yeah, that was real. >> Uh. yeah, from uh Jewish concentration camp. victims. Um and so, it's not a good look. for the Swiss National Bank to be. holding on to this stuff. Uh so, later uh with the Washington. Agreement of 1946, uh they were made to return uh well, at. least some of that Nazi gold, not much. of it, only about 12% of it, uh. supposedly to its rightful owners. And um that's, you know, they ended up. using it for other stuff, too, though. They used it sometimes as funds to repay.

uh citizens of Switzerland who had uh. seized property by communist regimes in. Europe. So, they were like, "Hey, maybe. we'll use some of this Nazi gold to to. repay our own coffers.". >> Yeah, and you said that they, you know, basically laundered it. They 100%. laundered this. So, they the Nazis. showed up with literally tons and tons. of gold, hundreds of tons of gold, that. was stolen from other countries, gave it to Switzerland. Switzerland gave. the Nazi regime money, lots and lots of. money in return, and then Switzerland.

turned around and took that gold and. sold it to Spain and Portugal. So, they. fenced stolen gold for the Nazis and. gave the Nazis money in return. It's as. simple as that. People didn't know this. until the 1990s when uh Switzerland was. sued by a few organizations, including. the World Jewish Congress. Um that was bad enough. So, this is. coming out at the same time that the. secret account stuff is coming out, too. So, Switzerland's taking like one-two. punches, haymakers, rope-a-dopes even, left and right.

>> [laughter]. >> And then on top of that, even worse, um. you said that they were returning 12% of. the Nazi gold to its rightful owners as. part of the Washington Agreement of. 1946, well, a lot of people um who were. fleeing Germany or fleeing the the Nazi. regime or fleeing the Holocaust, uh but. wanted to kind of. keep their valuables in a safe place. Went to Switzerland to to put money in. bank accounts, to put a valuable items. in safe deposit boxes. And after the war.

ended, their heirs would show up and say, you. know, my grandpa or my dad or somebody. put this, you know, this family. heirloom, this Hope Diamond in a safe. deposit box in your bank. And I'm here. to claim it. Here's all the. documentation that I'm the rightful. heir. And they would say, all of your. papers look like they're in order, but I. don't see a death certificate. And the. heir would say, well, my father or. grandpa or whatever died in a. concentration camp. The Nazis didn't. issue death certificates for that. They.

kind of wanted to keep it secret. And. the Swiss would say, sorry, can't help. you. And they did that across the board. So, they basically kept hundreds of. millions of dollars is the accusation of. legitimate deposits from legitimate. heirs of victims of the Holocaust. >> Yeah. And well, a lot of times they. didn't even have documentation at all, you know, much less death certificates. cuz that stuff was destroyed in the war. >> Mhm. >> Uh finally, 1946,

uh they promised to say, all right, we're going to. find these assets of Holocaust victims. uh from people who have no like. identifiable heirs, and we're going to. at least transfer them to a Jewish. reconstruction organization. Uh and decades later, they basically. uh. concluded that that didn't really. happen. Uh and then 1990, I think was when he. said finally, like fully like was. exposed, and there was uh a suit from.

the World Jewish Congress that got a. $1.25 billion settlement uh finally. 1998. >> Yeah. And And again, since then, the the. Swiss have been doing everything they. can to kind of rehabilitate their image. But at the same time, they have also. shown like they're not ones to just. immediately bow to international. pressure. The way that you get them is. to hit them in their pocketbooks. Like. like threaten their business or their. entire banking industry. That's kind of. what the pressure from the outside world. was doing. >> Yeah. >> So,

>> For sure. >> they seem to have rebounded largely. Um. there are some other things that make. Switzerland peculiar, too, that are much. less evil or dark. Um one is that they. really are in a kind of a weird position. as far as international groups go. Like. in some ways, like it makes a lot of. sense that they're the um host of the. International Red Cross headquarters, Geneva is, right? But. what about the UN? Should they be. members of the UN? The UN does They have.

like peacekeeping troops with guns and. stuff like that. What is What are the. ramifications of uh Switzerland joining. the UN? And they debated that for. decades. >> Yeah, they finally uh I mean it wasn't. until 2002 that they even joined the UN. Uh. and like you said, it took a long time. to kind of work out internally whether. or not that's something they wanted to. do or if that would kind of ruin all. those decades and decades of neutrality. that they had become known for. Uh there was a referendum uh that they. eventually voted on whether or not to.

become a member. And uh advocates said, "You know what? If we get involved with them, um. we can get involved and still like be. committed to mediation and humanitarian. aid. Like that will be our role within. the UN." Right. And it was a pretty. close vote. It was 54.6 in favor. And 12 Yeah, almost like right at half, 12 out of the 23 cantons voted yes. Uh and then finally in 2023 it became a. non-permanent member of the UN Security.

Council. >> That's those peacekeeping troops. >> That's right. And that was another, you. know, it wasn't It was pretty evenly. split as well. So, like even within the. country, they've always sort of hedged. like whether or not they wanted to. support joining up with these world. groups, you know? >> Right, exactly. And for good reason, too. I mean, it's tricky stuff. Um one of the one of the places or one. of the groups that they are just roundly. rejecting, so much so that they. basically told the EU like we're not.

we're not negotiating anymore. We're not. joining the European Union. Uh and the reason why, they actually. have pretty legitimate reasons why, uh. especially if you come at life from a. business-like attitude. But one is is. that they would immediately be a net. contributor. They would be paying out. way more than they were benefiting from. being a member of the EU. And the reason. why is because they basically have. cherry treaties with all of the European. countries. to do business with them, which is like. the attractive thing for a rich country.

to join the the EU. So they have that without being part of. the EU, without having to pay into the. EU right now. So they have the best of. of both worlds, and a really negative. incentive a number of negative. incentives to join the EU. >> Yeah, another is they just they really. love taking care of their own business. Uh what they would call direct democracy. and deciding for them what's best for. them. And if you're a part of the EU, then obviously you're a part of a larger.

collective and you don't like just. individual citizens' ability to decide. things for themselves uh. and have hold those referendums that. would go away. And so. they're not into that. And also just, you know, they built up this neutral. brand over the years. And it's not like. branding branding, but it kind of is. Uh and that. they don't want to just throw that all. the way after. again, you know, more than a hundred. years uh more than that, actually of. like being known like, you know, when.

you think neutral. and you think. chocolate and you think cuckoo clocks. and army knives. you think of Switzerland, and they don't. want that to go away. >> Yeah, when you think thirst, you think. Sprite. When you think neutral, you. think of Switzerland. >> That's right. >> There's another thing, too. Um, that. being a member of the EU means that, uh, any member nation, or the residents of. any member nation of the EU can move to. your place unrestricted, as far as I. know. So, immigration is free throughout.

the European Union, and Switzerland's. like, "We actually are pretty strict on. immigration, and we're worried that if, uh, we get a lot of people migrating to. Switzerland, the wages in Switzerland. are going to start to be decompressed, because a lot of people migrating here. are willing to accept far less than what. the average Swiss person is paid." So, yeah, essentially, every they have all. these incentives, you know, morally. upstanding or not, to not join the EU, and it does not look like they are ever.

going to join the EU. >> Yeah, or NATO. Obviously, that's a. warring organization. >> For sure. >> Or, or not a warring organization, but a. military alliance. >> For sure. And for all of its blemishes, and rough spots, and all of that, I hope. Switzerland stays Switzerland, you know? It would be a I think everyone does. the. world would kind of lose something if, if Switzerland just became like any. other country, you know? >> Agreed. >> Well, that's Switzerland, Chuck. Swiss. neutrality, I should say. >> That's right.

>> Uh, if you want to know more about Swiss. neutrality, um, travel to Switzerland, or watch a documentary on Switzerland. Uh, and in the meantime, it's time for. listener mail. >> Uh, this is another Mash follow-up. Uh, "Hey guys, uh, huge Mash fan. I'm a bit. older than Chuck, and, uh, still only 12. when it debuted. It was a perfect. [music] blend of comedy and poignant. drama, showing the horrors of war. I always. thought the writing was brilliant, and, [music]. uh, did take characters on a great.

growth arc. Uh, being a closeted gay. kid, [music] now openly and very happy. gay man. It was one of the first times. that a TV show dealt with the subject of. homosexuality [music]. in a sympathetic way, even if only on. one episode. Uh I was such a fan that I. developed a Mash trivia game similar to. Trivial Pursuit, >> [music]. >> and a number of details you mentioned in. your episode were part of the game like. uh Toledo and Tony Packos. >> Nice. >> So, great job, guys. You always do a. great job and are so pleasant to listen. to on my daily walks and whenever you. guys touch on LGBTQ+ topics, you do an.

amazing job as two straight guys. So, thank you for that. And that is from. Dave in Vancouver. And Dave, I hope. you're coming to see our live show in. Vancouver. >> Yeah. >> Uh we we can't wait. There's still. tickets available for all of the uh. well, I [music] guess the the first leg. will be over by this time, but that. second leg in July, I believe is. probably somewhere around this time. So, we'd love to see everyone. >> up quick, Dave. So, yeah. We we'd love. to see you, too. You can watch us be um. [music] two straight guys live and in. person.

>> That's right. >> Uh if you want to be like Dave and let. us know how much you like us, we really. appreciate those kind of emails, or you. can say whatever you like. Uh whatever. you have to say, send it off to. stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. [music]. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeartRadio. For [music] more podcasts. from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.