What's the bar exam like anyway? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeartRadio. >> [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's. here, too. And this is one of those good. old-fashioned rootin' tootin'. rooty fruity. uh episodes of Stuff You Should Know. Rooty tooty fresh and fruity. That's. right. I forgot the rest of it, but yes, you knew what I was laying down. Uh can. I shock you right off the bat? Yes. I.

don't think I have ever been. in an IHOP restaurant and eaten. Um. I don't think so. See, this is normally. where I'd be like, "What?" Yeah. But I. don't think you're missing enough to. warrant a what. Yeah. I mean, if I It. was always Waffle House if we were going. to do something like that. Mhm. So, yeah. Never been in an IHOP. The two are. actually not really that comparable to. tell you the truth. I mean, they're you.

If you went to a Waffle House and then. went to an IHOP, you wouldn't be like, "Been to one, been to the other.". They're Their menus are different. enough, the vibe's different enough. Is. IHOP more relatable to like a Denny's? Yes. Okay. I've been to Denny's, but not. much. >> then you don't need to go to IHOP. >> [laughter]. >> Uh can we thank um the listener who. suggested this uh episode? Yeah, I. remember their email, but I don't. remember their name. Yeah, cuz I finally. actually wrote it down, and we're not. doing it weeks later, but this came from.

listener Rowan. Uh and I'm not sure how to pronounce his. last name, but I'm going to go with. uh Garandissi. That's a great name. Garandaisy? I like Garandaisy more because of the. daisy part. Yeah. But Rowan wrote in, and I was like, "You know what? Uh I think someone in Rowan's life had. taken the bar, and uh I think they realized that they. didn't know much about it." And I was. like, "You know, I've never really. thought much about the bar exam, and I. don't know anything about it." Well, didn't they also send a like a little. clip or a an anecdote about how crazy it.

gets during the test, like how nuts. people will will or what lengths they'll. go to to finish? Yeah, yeah, I think I. do remember that, actually. We'll save. it. >> [laughter]. >> Save it. Let's talk about the bar exam, Chuck. For those people who aren't. aware, and from what I can understand, essentially every country in the world. that has lawyers has a bar exam. But it's the test. that um you have to take in most places.

to become a practicing attorney, to. become licensed as an attorney. And. that's it. There's bar exam, everybody. Goodbye. Yeah, uh. exactly. And you know, they they. the the word bar is there because I. think it's uh named after the literal. bar railing in a courtroom that divides. uh the public from, you know, the the. business end. Right. Where they Yeah, where you're not. really supposed to go past or else a. bailiff will jump on you. Yeah, exactly.

I remember there was a local news story. once about a judge who'd been drinking. like during work. Uh-huh. And like they. followed him like on his lunch hour and. followed him into like a place where he. was drinking. Uh-huh. They were like. teeing up the story, and they said, "This judge not only passed the bar, he. went in and drank at it.". >> [laughter]. >> And that I mean, like I saw that 15. years ago, and it's stuck with me ever. since. >> That's so lazy. It is, but I mean, I thought it was. pretty good to tell you the truth. Yeah.

Well, that's like when in the old days. when we were writers for. howstuffworks.com, and like a shining week is when I wrote. a clever uh. uh What do you call the thing under the. picture? Caption. Caption. Mhm. [laughter] Now I. can't even remember caption what the. word caption. That's how far we go. >> Do you remember any good ones? No, no, but I was like, "Hey, Emily, check this. out. I wrote a clever caption." It was. my first professional writing job, so I. was uh you know, showing pride. No, I. remember that. We used to tell one. another our great clever captions.

>> Yeah, look at this one. Music lyrics. we'd fit in to. to articles that we just thought we were. so sly about. Yeah. And now we just say. dumb things with our mouths. Right. Well, I feel like we've shaken off all. of the curious lawyers who don't. normally listen to us, so we can get. started, everybody. Um one of the things about the bar exam. I never understood, and I would. [clears throat] guess also that most. people out there who aren't attorneys or. aspiring attorneys wouldn't really get, but there's a lot of criticism about the.

bar exam. It's just not It's not just. some test that lawyers have to take to. get licensed, which on its face sounds. great because like with any professional. licensing, that protects the public from. incompetent lawyers. They have to. show that they understand a minimum. standard of how to practice law. that will prevent them from being such a. dipstick that their clients are going to. get electrocuted because they. represented them so poorly. It's way way. more intricate than that. Yeah. Socially.

speaking, culturally speaking, socioculturally speaking. Yeah. Cuz you don't want to end up with the. Lionel Hutz, right? No. He almost. certainly did not pass the bar. Well, it Well, we'll get to it, but you. don't have necessarily have to pass the. bar in every state in the United States. to practice law, but. sit on it, everybody, cuz that's coming. Um I guess we should go back in time and. talk a about a little bit of the history. because if you go back to colonial days,

uh pre-states in the United States or. not in the United States, but, you know, what will one day be the United States. And then what happens. >> of the curious lawyers. Exactly. There There were no bar exams cuz there. were no law schools. If you wanted to. work as a lawyer, uh you would. apprentice or clerk for a practicing. lawyer for, you know, sometimes you. would just do it uh. and and donate your time to working for. them. Sometimes you would do that and. actually pay them. Right. Uh which you. know, it seems like a pretty good.

system, and we'll talk more about. apprenticing later cuz for my money, I. think that's a pretty good way to do. things. Yeah. Uh but by 1750, which is pretty early on, all of the. colonies um. got on board, basically, and said, "All. right, we need we need standards for. people to do this job, and we need to. kind of all agree on what that's going. to be.". Yeah, and like a lot of stuff or most. things with American law, they were. following in the tradition of England, which had had some sort of exam or.

another for people to become attorneys. as far back as the 16th century. But um so America wasn't that far. behind, you know, a couple hundred. years. Apparently, the first one was. Delaware in 1783. And um it was essentially just you would. go and hang out with a judge, and they. would quiz you on some legal stuff. Yeah. And if you got it right, you were. you were accepted to the bar. You were. an attorney from that point on. It was. okay for you to practice. It was also.

supposedly looked on as very easy, too. Yeah, uh I imagine a lot of that. depended on you the judge that you got. and like maybe how even much they liked. you uh in those early days. It was. really sort of the Wild Wild West. Right. Uh there Libya helped us with. this, and she dug up a pretty fun story. about Abraham Lincoln, who was a bar examiner for the state of. Illinois in the 1850s and was apparently. just like at a hotel chatting with a. lawyer in a room, and the lawyer. answered a few questions, and Lincoln. was like, "Congratulations, you're an.

attorney.". >> [laughter]. >> So great, man. Yeah. Um yeah, I love that story, too. I mean, I I can just see Lincoln busting it out. so casually. Yeah, I think the takeaway. is the guy didn't even know the test had. begun, essentially. No, he had no idea. Exactly. I'm glad you added that part. >> Sure. Um so, the actual first written bar. exam, kind of like they are today, that. popped up around 1855, I think, in. Massachusetts, and then it became a. requirement uh about 20 years later in.

Suffolk County, where Boston was. And by. 1920, written exams [clears throat] were like. the the way to go. And because now it wasn't just getting. quizzed with the judge, um law schools. started popping up and developing. um to kind of train you to prepare for. that written exam at the very least. And. they actually became an alternative to. apprenticing, which, as you'll see later. on, is kind of um inverted these days.

But that was something you could do if, like, say all of the lawyers in your. town were jerks, Yeah. you could go to a. law school instead of apprenticing. When. you graduated law school, then you could. take your bar exam. Those were your two. ways your two paths to the bar exam back. then. Yeah, uh by 1921, the American Bar. Association was around, and they said, "You know, we really prefer a written. exam. uh to license." They I don't think they. mandated it at that point. Yeah. Um but. they, you know, the states generally.

kind of fell in line behind the ABA, and. I think by 1931, another decade later, uh the American Association of Law. Schools got together uh with a. committee, and they said, "All right, we. need to develop a real system here." So, they came together with the National. Conference of Bar Examiners, and at that time, 1930s, they were. really like the testing that they were. concerned about was what they called. black letter law, just sort of. really unambiguous black and white yes.

or no answers to things. on like, you know, how things are. literally legally defined, and not a lot. of like uh. you know, hypotheticals being bandied. about, which you're going to get Yeah, exactly, which you're going to get more. these days in the bar exam. Yeah. But one of the problems with. taking a test like that is that your. hand can get cramped. They didn't want. prospective lawyers' hands cramping, so. in 1972, the National Conference of Bar. Examiners came up with the Multistate. Bar Examination.

Um and that created a multiple-choice. test. Yeah. Um it also really kind of. dug into like your knowledge. But at the same time, you could also say. like this is where it became a little. more. standardized and less loosey-goosey. But. in that sense, it also became a little. more um scientific-minded. Um by creating a test that you could say. this is right, this is wrong. And it. wasn't just legal terms they were.

applying at the hypothet- hypothetical. situations. But it was still. multiple-choice, so you could grade it. much more easily. Yeah, I don't know how I feel about. multiple-choice in a. test like this. I don't any time you can sort of guess. Right. I don't think you can necessarily. guess your way to success, but I don't. know. Uh I think you just came up with a. t-shirt. >> [laughter]. >> Guess your way to success. >> Yeah, totally. And then on the back just. a a A, B, C, D and just a check mark. next to the C. All of the above. All of.

the above. Uh go ahead. You go ahead. No, well as this is sort of developing. over the decades uh I think we're at the. '70s here, but it kind of became clear. um during this period that like hey, what what we've got here is a. gatekeeping service essentially. Um. ostensibly the reason was uh like you. said is like we want to keep only like. you know, really knowledgeable people. that know what they're doing uh in these. jobs. to protect people that hire them for. lots and lots of money.

Um but as this was happening, it became. even more clear that uh there was a side. effect of that which was um. you know, uh immigrants, uh black. people, other people of color that were. uh vying to become attorneys were having. a harder time and this is evidence. really early on in 1912. They um. accidentally admitted three black. attorneys. um into the ABA and could because they. didn't have, you know, like check here. for race. And then they were like, oh. goodness, we accidentally let in three. black attorneys, so we need to start.

screening basically for race. Yeah, they said we need to add a check. here for race thing on the application. to take the bar exam and that's. essentially what they did. So from 1912 all the way to 1943. um if you checked uh. African-American or God knows what they. had down for you to check back then um. you were just not allowed to take the. bar exam. Sorry. >> Yeah. Like this is it was a an actual,

like you said, a gatekeeping mechanism. to prevent black people from becoming. lawyers in the United States. And so in 1925. uh. prospective black lawyers said nuts to. that. And they got together um with. actual black lawyers and they came up. with the National Bar Association, which. is still around today. as an alternative for black um attorneys. to basically become attorneys rather. than have to go through the ABA. Yeah, and you know, since then. especially in like the 1970s, there uh.

there seemed to be like a series of. lawsuits from uh black lawyers in. different states that were suing over. various uh what they thought were, you. know, discriminatory policies uh within. the test. Um. I don't think many of those were. successful though, were they? No. Um the one that sticks out the most. that I've heard the most um described as. um. Like well, just basically a good example. of the lawsuits that came around at this. time was Tyler versus Vickery Yeah. or.

Tyler v. Vickery if you're a lawyer. Yeah. Um it was a a class action suit. that alleged that Georgia's bar. examinations cut score, which is the. minimum score you have to have to pass. had been adjusted with the introduction. of the Multistate Bar Exam. Um remember. the uh multiple-choice test that they. introduced? >> That they had basically been introduced. in in designed to continue to keep black. people from passing the bar exam. And the Fifth Circuit Court of Georgia.

said. we don't really think that's true. For. some reason they said we don't see any. intent to discriminate, which is neither. here nor there under Title VII of the. Civil Rights Act, which prevents. employment discrimination. Yeah. But. they also said, here's the thing, the. bar um the American Bar Association is. not an employer. They're not a a labor. organization. They're not an employment. agency, so therefore Title VII doesn't. really apply to them. And the court. said, ABA continue to discriminate.

through the bar exam as you see fit. Yeah, that I'm I'm not I don't know much. about lawyer stuff uh in my. >> spit about lawyers. >> [laughter]. >> In my. No spit. In my civilian mind uh I see. that as kind of a punt. um legally speaking. And maybe that was. that maybe that's, you know, a lot of. times you decide something on on. precedent and whether or not you feel. it's right or not, that's just the. precedent, but um I don't know, that. felt like a punt to me by saying like,

well, they're not an employer, an. agency, or labor organization, so we're. just sort of not going to hear this one. Yeah, and this this reveals to me. something that I just find fascinating. is when lawyers sue. other lawyers or bodies of lawyers or. judges rule on the test that it takes to. create lawyers and therefore judges it's. it just seems so fraught. uh with basically opinion because. they're so like it's so like the judges. learning about this for the first time. they're coming at it from fresh eyes. Like this is. like part of their fabric as as um.

having been a law student and becoming a. lawyer and then becoming a judge, you. know? I just I I just find it. fascinating. Yeah, totally. Um. Should we wrap up sort of the the. testing stuff and then take a break? Uh. yeah, let's get back into um the. evolution of the test again. Yeah, so. now we're in the late '80s, 1988. I'm a. junior in high school, uh still seeking that first kiss. And the the NCBE uh has added the. Multistate Essay Examination at this. point. So now you're back to essaying uh.

which is how it previously had been. until that multiple-choice test. >> Right. And in '97, it um handed over the. Multistate Performance Test or the MPT. which says, hey, let's. um sort of do like. do some practice stuff. Like write write. up a brief for me or write out a memo or. draft a memo. We'll see how you do on. that. And then finally in 2011. uh the Uniform Bar Exam or the UBE was. adopted by most states uh where all.

three of those tests kind of make that. one up as one big test. Yeah, which is. you know, if you're a state and you. don't feel like going to the trouble of. coming up with your entire your own bar. exam. now you can just use the UBE. Yeah. And. it's it's. proven um like it's it's there's all. sorts of great questions in there. You. sacrificed um state law. But a lot of people say like, well, like. law students don't need to sit around. and memorize state law, that's a waste. of time.

Uh in in favor of the UBE, which is. pretty rich because a lot of people. argue that the UBE itself is a waste of. time because you have to memorize. general law rather than state law. Which. we'll talk more about that. I just I'm. chomping at the bit right now. Yeah, but. it did make it like more easy to. transfer from state to state and stuff. like that. And we'll get into those. specifics too, but let's take that. break. Okay. And we'll get into the. basics of the bar right after this. >> [music].

[music]. >> So Chuck, it turns out there's 56. jurisdictions in the United States. Uh.

50 I didn't. 50 50 states plus some. territories. You got some overseas. possessions. You got a um you know. What. else? Uh. >> [laughter]. >> So there's 56 and each jurisdiction is. has its own like highest agency that. basically says these are the standards. to become a lawyer in the state. And. again, a lot of them just said you have. to pass the Uniform Bar Exam, that's the. standard. Um but they also can kind of. mess with it here there and it's up to.

uh this this agency that's associated. with the highest court in the state, usually the State Supreme Court. Yeah, exactly. Um in most jurisdictions, if. you just to take the bar exam, you have. to have graduated from an accredited uh. law school from the American Bar. Association Mhm. uh which usually means. a 3-year program. Um some states though. are like, hey, if you're not if you didn't go to an. accredited school, that's fine. We'll. still let you take the bar. uh if you are in Washington State, uh. Virginia, Vermont, or California.

they allow a legal apprenticeship uh to. swap out um law school, which I think is. super kind of cool. Yeah. Um and Maine. and New York let you sub out like a year. or two of that law school for an. apprenticeship. Yeah. For sure. Which is. pretty neat. Um it's it's old school. It's a throwback kind of thing. Yeah. Uh. if you want to take the um bar exam, most of the time it's given in February. and July. Those are your two options. Uh and then you're going to pay some. money for it. And there's a lot of ways.

you're going to pay money for it. Just. to to register to take it the bar exam. itself, it can be a few hundred dollars. It can be more than a thousand dollars. depending on your state and how greedy. they are. Yeah. Um if you want to use a laptop, you want. to type out your briefs and your memos. and your essays rather than um write. them out cuz you get hand cramps like. the old lawyers used to. Yeah. Um you're. going to have to pay a fee for that. And. the reason why is because there is no. chance you're going to be allowed to.

bring your own laptop. >> No. Because they keep the the the place. so tight and and are so. hawkish about preventing cheating that. they actually provide tampons to people. who need them. because you're not allowed to bring in. your own tampon. Wow. Really? >> Yeah, it's happened and apparently it's. not just an isolated thing that they. have a bowl of tampons Wow. >> grab one if you need it and you hope.

that they don't run out if you really. need it. So, yeah, it's it's um it's the. like there's no way you're bringing your. own laptop in. Yeah, or tampon. Exactly. So, wow, I never knew that. That's a. nice little tidbit. Thanks. I thought. that was pretty great, too. Um so, uh you got to have money to register. like you said, you have to have money um. to, you know, a lot of times people take. off work for several months. Um so, you have to have a a life that. can do that, you know, which indicates a.

certain amount of at least either. privilege or maybe hard work and saving. if that's how you did it, which is. great. And then almost assuredly you. have paid um several thousand dollars, maybe as much as $6,000 to take uh. preparatory courses. Um about 60% of the. market share in the United States is. company called uh BARBRI, Barbri. Um can be up to 6,000, maybe as low as. 1,800 bucks. And they have been around. since the 1950s and I was I was like,

what does Barbri stand for? And I I had. a. a weirdly hard time finding out uh what. it stood for until I I sadly Wikipedia. just turned it up. I should have gone to. the most obvious place, but. >> Mhm. Uh I think when they merged in 2021. uh or no no no, they merged in the '70s, I think. Uh and it was just the the. names of uh two companies. I think Bay. Area Review was BAR and the Bar Review. Inc. was BRI. And so, they just squashed. those together. So, kind of uh boring.

story. Uh. I had seen um that it was a merger of. Barbizon Modeling School Oh, well. >> and Brie meaning the makers of Brie. cheese around the world. Wow, that's a. that's a mashup I could enjoy. Right. And the $6,000 one that you can pay for. like the premium uh test prep they. actually have somebody take the test for. you and they even provide the person. with a wig that matches your hair. So, it looks a lot like you, too. Uh I did see though they have a. guarantee if you do not uh if you pay.

that money to them and you don't pass. the bar, uh. you I think you get to take the course. again for free one more time if you're. taking the exam again. Okay, that's not bad. >> get your money back, but you get to. retake the course at no charge. No. Barbizon Modeling has long had a motto, you don't get your money back. Right. Yeah, exactly. So, uh let's break down. the UBE, the Uniform Bar Examination, which is the culmination of decades of. the National Conference of Bar.

Examiners' hard work, sweat, blood, tears, joy, pain. Yeah. And again, it's. you can break it down into three parts. that kind of came along separately. The. first remember was that um. multiple choice test, the Multistate Bar. Examination. Yeah. Uh there's 200. multiple choice questions. I've seen. 175. I guess it depends on. I don't know, your jurisdiction and how. much how valuable they find 25. questions. Yeah, maybe. But it covers. seven different areas of the law. You.

want to take them? Sure. Uh civil procedure, contracts, of. course. Nice. >> Uh torts, ooh, uh constitutional law. Mhm. uh criminal law, that sexiest law. Careful. >> Uh um criminal law and procedure that. is. Um evidence, which is its own. category, and real property. Cha-ching. And that is 50% of the UBE score. Then. the uh the other two are the Multistate. Essay once again, which is 30% and then. the two Multistate Performance Test.

Tasks, and that is 20%. Yeah. Uh so, you're like, okay, I could take. that, no problem. I'm sure you might be able to take it, you probably wouldn't pass. And you'd uh. give up 12 hours plus of your life. 12. hours just of the test. Uh it's spread. out over 3 days technically, but the UBE. takes up two of those days. Mhm. Um 12. hours divided by two days divided by. four sessions. So, 3:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the afternoon. Go to your hotel.

room, can't sleep, toss and turn, come. back the next morning, 3:00 in the. morning, 3:00 in the afternoon. Yeah, oh. well, we should mention, too, that's. another reason you might be paying some. extra money if you don't live near a. testing site like travel and room and. board and all that stuff. >> Good point. And scotch at the end of the. day, of course. That's right. Uh it's graded on a 400-point scale. Uh depends on the state on what they. consider passing. Uh generally 260 to 270. Um I said. state, of course, jurisdiction. Mhm. Um.

and then. uh apparently it's like. it's not like acing the bar gets you. anything more than passing the bar. Uh. you you pass it and that's great, but um. I I have some inside info from attorney. friends, uh which I'll kind of dabble in. here and there, but I I think it's sort. of untoward to, you don't go in and be. like, "Ooh, I aced the bar." Yeah, I saw. a Reddit post where somebody posted. they're like, "I got a score of 330 and. I mean, is that high? I don't mean to. make anybody who's got lower than that. feel bad, but I'm just curious like what.

do you guys think?" And it was like you. you disgust us. >> [laughter]. >> Like that is just sad. So, yeah, it's. not really cool to to flex on people. over your bar score. >> and you pass. That's all that matters. That's right. And then if you do pass, there's always a um a gaggle of. attorneys, usually quite experienced. seasoned attorneys, who um just are. waiting for you to finish and when you. finish, they embrace you. Um and that's. how you know that you've passed the bar.

exam. >> [laughter]. >> Uh we did mention that those UBE scores. are portable. You can uh it's not like. in the old days when you had to pass. that state's bar. Um you know, I think. that's how it used to be kind of across. the board. >> Right. Uh they're transferable for two. to five years after taking the exam. It. depends on the jurisdiction, of course. Uh and then. uh if they do if you're in a. jurisdiction that doesn't utilize that. UBE test um most of them still have the. MBE as a a big part of their exam.

um usually with their own specific like. state law stuff if they do that. Uh and. there's usually also a third day, which. you were talking about earlier, that. third test um which is like a. 60-question ethics test. Right. Um it's. called the Multistate Professional. Responsibility Examination, the MPRE. Yes. And they ask you questions. It's. It's scored separately, but they have. questions like, you know, "Attorney. Lionel Hutz brought in a bag of pot to. one of his.

one [laughter] of his uh clients into. prison. Is uh Attorney Hutz guilty of. loving too much?" Right. Was that a real Simpsons thing? No. Oh, okay, cuz I could see that. I They only really talked about pot like. on a couple of really great episodes, but you know. No, that wasn't their bag. normally. >> That wasn't their bag of pot. No, yeah. That wasn't their sack. Don't use that word. Yeah, sack's kind of gross, isn't it?

Moist. Oh, boy. Uh. what was the other one? Moist sack. Oh. Or. Go look that up in the transcript. Don't. Don't do it. Uh. let's talk about pass rates because it. really obviously depends on the state. They can vary pretty wildly actually. from looking at some of these stats. Uh I think for first-timers uh from July. of this year's testing, uh 2025. first-timer pass rates, uh those range. like from 66% in Connecticut to almost.

90% in Utah. So, go Utah. Uh if you look at overall rates, not. necessarily just first-timers, uh 2025. 50 only 54% in the state of Alabama. Uh once again, compared to 86 in Utah. So, I don't know what's in the water out. there in Utah, but those attorneys are. sipping it up. Oh, it's widely. considered a really easy state to pass. the bar. Oh, is it really? >> Yeah. Oh, interesting. Okay. Um some. very hard places to take the bar around. the world actually that I saw, Nigeria,

Singapore, [clears throat] Korea, Japan, Ontario, Canada, Canada. >> Okay. Yeah. >> New York state. All like New York. state's bar exam is so difficult, it's. like as hard as the entire nations of. Singapore's. Um so, there are definitely varies by. jurisdiction and by country just how. hard it can be. Wow, that's interesting. Uh I do know that of the 2022 graduates, this is just another sort of stat for. you. Um over 90% of graduates from.

accredited schools uh passed within a. couple of years, but there's from what I. see, there's really no shame to for it. to take a crack or two. um to pass the bar. I don't think I. don't know if it's something you're. going to like run around the office. telling people on your first day, but I don't think it's like a mark of. shame. There've been plenty of very. successful attorneys uh very famous. attorneys that didn't pass the bar on. the first go, including uh Michelle. Obama Uh-huh. and uh Hillary Clinton and. uh I think it's the uh. >> I think JFK, yeah. Bunch of DIMs.

Uh JFK Jr. I think took two or three. times to pass. >> I saw that. And. uh oh, Kim Kardashian uh took a time or. two. Yeah, I think three. Three? And there's actually limits on how many. times you can take it depending on your. state, your jurisdiction, your. territory. Oh, well, they just say, "Sorry, might want you to Sounds like. you should try another line of work.". >> There are some places that say that. I. don't know if they actually say that. The gaggle of of attorneys tell you that.

when you fail the sixth time, but there. are other places that have discretionary. rules where after you reach a certain. number, like say, I think six is the. highest I've seen, uh you can apply to take it again. You. can basically go to the state bar and be. like, "Please, >> Yeah. I want to be a lawyer so bad. I'm. just really terrible at this.". Yeah, I mean, it is a test and some. people aren't great test takers. We'll. we'll kind of talk about that in a. little bit, but also uh.

I imagine there's plenty of things you. can do with a law degree if you haven't. passed the bar, right? Uh yeah, I mean, it's great like you see. somebody referred to like, "Oh, this is. a lawyer or something." But they have. like they're in some field that has. nothing to do with law. Yeah. >> like they very frequently are advisers. Um like just. They know how how far you can bend the. law. Okay. >> of stuff you can do with it. All right, yeah. You can always teach, I I imagine. Oh, yeah, that too. Yeah. >> Um I have a little cute little um.

addition addendum to this this part. Let's go. The youngest person ever to pass the bar. is Sophia Park. Okay. >> She passed the bar in 2024 at age 17. 17 years, 8 months. And was that after. law school even? Yeah, she started law. school at 13. Uh she's one of those. So, she beat the previous record by 3. months. The previous record had been set. um at age, I guess, 18 years and 1 month.

by her brother, Peter. Man. Isn't that nuts? It's a smart. family. It is. They really wanted to be lawyers. Yeah. Or or, you know, are they practicing law or are they just. like, "I just wanted to show off." Oh, I. I believe they're both practicing law. Yeah, I guess so. Um. dish Well, should we take another break, Chuck? I I guess we should. Well, the. one more little tidbit here at the end. Um you know, we we said that it's it's a.

bar exam is. basically to say, "Hey, you can practice. law.". Uh the one other thing that it does is. it it helps determine uh what schools. can teach it because the ABA requires. that law schools, uh if you want to be. an accredited law accredited law school, a certain percentage of your graduates. have to pass the bar within 2 years, otherwise your accreditation goes away. Yeah, I I saw 75% of your um graduates. have to pass. All right, or they're. like, "Sorry, I guess you're not. teaching well enough." Exactly. Um I wanted my tidbit to be last, so I'm.

just going to repeat it now, okay? >> [laughter]. >> Uh I had on second thought, we'll just. go to break. How about that? All right, we'll be right back. >> [music]. [music].

[music]. >> All right, so we're back with more. critiques and problems on the bar. because uh if you start to do a little. digging, it turns out there's been a lot. of. uh a lot of that over the years um for a. lot of different reasons. Um you know, we've mentioned some of the stuff while. it was developing. Basically, um you. know, banning people of color from even. taking the test for a long time. Um but.

black and Hispanic Americans are still. very underrepresented in the field of uh. law. And uh you know, that's a problem. because when you're. uh a practicing attorney like a lot of. um. uh opinion, you know, that's why they. call them opinions and judgment goes. into it. And sure, it's based on. precedent, but your perspective is. important. And having diverse. perspectives is also important. Right. Yeah, for sure. It's um it's a white. male profession essentially. Uh.

statistically speaking, that is far and. away the largest population represented. in the legal profession in the United. States. Uh and there's statistics and figures. that kind of show the disparity here. Um. there's um some data from 2021 from the. American Bar Association um that showed. that white law school graduates passed. on their first try at the bar exam at a. rate 24% higher than black students, 13%. higher than Hispanic students, and 15%. higher than Native Americans. So, these.

are really substantial disparities in. passing the bar the first time. And so, being in the hot seat, the. National Conference of Bar Examiners is. like, "Hey, hey, hey, everybody mellow. out here. This is a This is This tracks with other. uh scoring of um racial disparities uh. like like law school grades, LSAT. grades. Like this is in line with them. Just leave the bar exam alone. And by.

the way, their interpretation is that. this is an example of long-standing. systemic racial disparities in the. American education system that. >> Right. start way back long before the. the somebody gets to law school and goes. to take the bar. And that the bar exam. is just showing this. It's just. reflecting this problem elsewhere. So. again, stop looking at the bar is essentially. what the NCBE says. It also kind of.

sounds like we're just a part of. the grand history of. of systemic discrimination throughout. our country. >> Well, that's the critique of them, too. People are like, "That's your answer? Like you're we're just perpetuating a an. already existing racial disparity." Like. that's essentially what they're saying. in that argument. Yeah, it's a it's. definitely a strange argument. Um other. people say that uh. you know, just part of that disparity. is, you know, the cost associated with. law school and to be a successful.

candidate. And like we said, the. privilege that it takes to. uh maybe be able to to pay for that and. then take off months work and and pay. for the the very best. preparatory courses. You know, that's. it's just sort of all in the big soup of. privilege, you know. Right. I saw that. black and Hispanic students who take the. bar exam are 50% likelier to work during. their bar prep. period Yeah. >> than white student. Like it's just. logistically speaking, racially.

speaking, it's just much likelier that a. white test taker is going to be able to. not work and just dedicate their time to. prepping for the bar. >> And I mean, that alone explains a lot of. it. Because the bar exam is essentially. um I like it's a a standardized test. that where you memorize essentially year. one law school stuff. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the other critiques is. that uh. you know, it's a memorization test. And.

um it it. There've been plenty of studies that. show that it doesn't necessarily isn't a. marker toward your future performance as. an attorney or your like your how. successful you may be. >> Right. Uh there was a study in 2024 um. from Nevada Mhm. that uh compared scores. on the MBE MBE and other components of. their test of uh I think a little more. than 500 new attorneys and how they were. basically rated, how effective they were. by their peers and their supervisors and.

judges. And they they did find a small. positive relationship between some of. the ratings, some parts of the bar, but. at the end of the day, overall, they. said it was minimally predictive of. career success. Uh and negligibly related uh the Nevada. performance test was negligibly related. to success. >> Yeah, the those low correlations are. were as low as 1 to 4%. Yeah. >> 4% was the highest as far as um the. actual whole bar exam uh. um relating to these ratings of how.

effective these lawyers were by their. peers, they said, "We can only account. for that with 12% of the bar exam. The. other the rest of the distinctions or. the differences in in effectiveness has. nothing to do with their score on the. bar exam." And so, people say like, "Well, what the heck is the bar exam. doing?" And again, the National. Conference of Bar Examiners are like, "We're testing for lawyer competence to. protect the public, dummy." And people. say, "Well, how are you testing for.

uh legal competence?" Yeah. Like what. what's What is legal competence? And. this is where the National uh Conference. of Board Examiners like pull their shirt. away from their neck so you can see like. some sweat breaking out on their. forehead. >> because they've never given a definition. Yeah. of competence. And if you don't. have a definition of competence, how can. you in a standardized way test people. for whether they meet that definition or. not? Yeah. >> So, people say like the bar exam under. that that um description is by.

definition invalid. It is not It's not a. valid test, meaning that it doesn't test. the thing it purports to test because we. just have no idea what it is testing. You know what you just sounded like? What? An attorney. >> [laughter]. >> It sounds like you just dropped a mic in. court and then sat down. And and I was. to your just sat down on your left. And. I put my hand on your shoulder and was. like, "Hell yeah, man.". Got him. >> [laughter]. >> Uh there've also been a lot of just sort.

of disasters in recent years, very. public ones in terms of the bar. Uh. during COVID, uh they offered remote. exams. And it was just sort of a joke in. a lot of cases. They were a lot of. computer problems like programs. crashing. They had facial recognition issues and. that sometimes they failed to identify. dark-skinned test-takers. So that's. that's bad right off the bat. You also again, you know, it was remote. so you had to keep your eyes on the. screen at all times. Or they would think.

you're cheating if you're looking around. or looking into your lap or something. So people were like literally urinating. themselves in their seat because they. couldn't move and one woman went into. labor and went through the test and gave. birth and then came home and finished. the second day. Yeah, if you want to. know how tough Loyola University law. students are, there you go. What about. California with the the chat GPT. questions? >> This one it's got a lot of Schadenfreude.

around it. But California said nuts to. the UBE. We can do a better program. ourselves and save money. So they designed their own bar exam. Like just completely issued the. the uniform bar examination, right? And. it just the rollout was horrible. There were people who were taking the. test, they would get error messages. The. program would crash during the test. It. wouldn't save their essays. Can you. imagine finishing an essay and clicking.

to save it and they're like, "Nope, sorry. Do it again." That's every. student's nightmare. >> Yeah, and remember this is time. Like. you have 3 hours per segment, right? Like if you don't finish in time, sorry. Like you you have to stop. So that's a. huge part of it. And then also like you. said chat GPT it turned out was involved. because some students were like, "There. like are misspellings and typos in some. of these multiple-choice questions." And. the California State Bar said, "Wait, what?". Yeah, it turns out that some of those. questions were chat.

GPT um. uh written by chat GPT. They weren't. even reviewed by a lawyer. Um or copyedited by the state agency. that oversaw the test because uh you. know. I don't know. Money, I guess. And then. this was another case of lawyers suing. lawyers and lawyers suing their state. bar and all that. Um and it like. California has just lost so much money. on it. And remember this is a. money-saving thing, too. So Right. >> Again, there's like a little bit of.

Schadenfreude to it. Yeah, there was one. incident in New York where someone went. into cardiac arrest while taking the. test. That was this year in the July. test. And you know, people are like, you know, we should help here, right? And the test. proctors were like, "No, everyone be. quiet." And like uh you know, just keep. taking your test and and we'll deal with. this. in the next lunch break. Yeah, like they. had to keep taking their tests while the. paramedics were saving this this. person's life like next to them. essentially. That was what they were. forced to do. That's how um I don't.

know. You choose your own word they are. about assigning these tests or carrying. out these tests. I was I was working a. TV commercial one time as a PA years ago. out in the desert and. in California and a crew member had. cardiac arrest. And the director told. them to move a big fake rock in front of. I mean they were tending to the guy. But they were like, "We need to keep. shooting. Like go move that big fake. rock in front of the the paramedics so. we can keep shooting." I guess it's. better than the director being like,

"Take that fake rock and finish him off. with it." Yeah. Yeah. >> And then drag him out of the way. Uh one thing I wondered because I always. kind of wonder like, "How would we do if. we took the SAT now like you know, at. this stage in life or something?". I wondered about like a really. experienced attorney years later if they. took the bar again. And Libya dug into. that and found a study from 2021. 16 like successful experienced. practicing attorneys from Oklahoma. retook uh the bar essentially with no.

prep. Uh it was just like you know, their prep was their career. Uh on the. theory that hey, if it's it's if it's. measuring ability, then this should bear. out in the in the grades and none of. them passed. They got scores ranging. from 26 to 52%. So nobody would have passed that bar. And and the lawyers who've been. practicing the longest did the worst out. of all of them. And then one general criticism of the. bar exam, too, um in addition to.

everything else we've just talked about. is that it doesn't in any real way. um. kind of jibe with what these lawyers are. going to do in the legal profession. It's general questions about law. generally in the United States. Again, it's essentially the stuff you learn in. your first year at law school because. the next 2 years you start to get into. your specialization. Um and it's a lot of memory and. memorization. And a lot of lawyering. after you graduate and go through the.

bar and become an attorney is open-book. research to figure out where law. applies. The bar exam is closed-book. rapid-fire testing. So they're like, "This is not like. even putting away everything else, all. the other arguments. At its base it's. kind of a flawed test to start with.". Yeah, for sure. And because of that. there are a lot of jurisdictions that. have long had workarounds and. alternatives. And there are changes on the horizon for.

the bar itself. Wisconsin is the only. state I guess only jurisdiction that. never stopped saying, "Hey, you went to. law school and you can practice law in. this state.". >> Yeah. You don't have to take the bar. here. Which is pretty cool. I think you have. to graduate from one of the states two. law schools there. And they call it. diploma privilege. I think in the past. couple of decades New Hampshire has. followed suit a little bit. And if you. graduate with honors from University of. New Hampshire Law School. and you participate in court simulations.

and have practical experience, then you. can be admitted to practice law without. the bar. >> Yeah, and we had said earlier that the. the law school was originally created as. an alternative to apprenticeship. Some states have gone the other way now. where apprenticeships are alternatives. to law school. Like it's a path to the. bar. >> like it, too. Vermont and Virginia, they allow. apprenticeships instead of actually. instead of the bar exams themselves. Oregon offers apprenticeships.

where if you're a law school graduate, you can you can become a lawyer without. the bar exam if you apprentice for I. think 675 hours over 4 weeks. in supervised work, you will basically. become a lawyer after that. 4 weeks? 4. months? No, 4 weeks. >> 4 years? No, I I was joking. There's only 675. hours in 4 weeks. So Oh, okay. So just. >> be doing 24 hours a day for a month as.

an apprentice. Which seems hardcore. >> I will assume your math checks out. It. does. I even used. a calculator. Oh, great. Uh I think. Washington State has a plan coming in. 2026. So more states are kind of getting. on board with this. California last year actually rejected a. proposal um to become more like Oregon. with those apprenticeship hours even. though the State Bar of California's. Board of Trustees said, "We think this. is a good idea." The State Supreme Court. said, "No, no, no." Um but coming around.

the corner now we have the next gen bar. exam, right? Yeah, the NCBE is like everybody settle. down. So starting in 2018, they're like, "We're going to change this a little. bit. The test is going to be shorter. We're going to make it so it's possible. to take it remotely if need be. And then it's it's just going to be a. little different where. I think it's a little more essay heavy. than the original test. But they're also. carving out some stuff that they're not. going to test on like family law and.

that kind of thing. So it's a little leaner, meaner kind of. bar exam that they're coming up with.". All right. Um two things that I saw that. are worth mentioning real quick. If you do away with the bar exam, there's a couple of benefits to that. One is that it puts the onus on law. schools themselves to graduate competent. lawyers. Um right now there are some law. schools that are considered diploma. mills. because as long as 75% of your graduates.

pass the bar within 2 years, like you. stay accredited and you can make a lot. of money off that other 25%. That's one. thing that would happen. Another one is. that legal fees would probably come down. because one of the functions of. gatekeeping that the bar exam does is it. artificially keeps the supply of lawyers. low which artificially inflates the fees. associated with lawyers, too. Aha. Pretty neat about that.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I spoke to my friend. I. think I know a few attorneys here and. there but only like one good friend. who's a lawyer. uh who is electing to remain anonymous. in this case. >> Okay. But I did text him of kind of. about all this and he said, "I would say. it's only useful in that it it shows how. you can collect and synthesize a lot of. information under time pressure. But that's not really much different. than most standardized test. Uh but as. far as being an indicator of how you'll. be as a practitioner, yeah, not so much.

He says for example, the bar will test. you to some extent on the rules of civil. procedure. But passing the bar doesn't. mean you can walk into a deposition the. day after you pass and know how to do. that. Um as someone who's taken hundreds. of depositions, you learn by watching. listening to more experienced attorneys. do it. Uh and then by trial and error, no pun intended, doing it yourself. Uh. he is in favor of the apprenticeships. He said it's probably a lot more helpful. as long as your mentor, you know, knew. what they were doing. >> Right. Uh and then said one thing he would like.

to see change is like. um. I think more. emphasis on writing. Uh he said I he see. so many briefs written by someone who. allegedly passed the bar, they're just. horrible. Uh, he said that's probably just a. criticism of the legal education more. than the bar. Um, and then he said he wanted to remain. anonymous and he said, "I know it sounds silly or overly. cautious when there are SCOTUS justices. who can accept luxury vacations with. impunity, >> [laughter]. >> but I'm supposed to be impartial here, so uh, ragging on the bar might not be a.

good look." Yeah, I think that's smart. Yeah. Uh, you got anything else? I got nothing else. Well, thanks for. tapping your anonymous friend. That was. good info. Sure. Uh, if you want to. learn more about the bar exam, go take. the bar exam. Uh, and in the meantime, it's time for listener mail. That'd be kind of fun. I mean, if it was. free, I would take the bar exam just to. like with zero [music] knowledge of. anything, just to see like how poorly I. would do. Yeah, I would, too. I'd be.

right next to you, peeing in my seat and. and going into labor and having a heart. attack. Wouldn't that be funny though if we got. like, I don't know, even like a 20% or. something? Or if we passed and we just. automatically became lawyers. Yeah, let's do it. >> All right. Uh, all right, this is about the Salton. Sea. Uh, you called for listener mail, right? >> Mhm. All right. Hey guys, I was listening to. the Salton Sea episode. Uh, in college, I took an ocean. geography [music] class and learned. about inland seas. An inland sea, cuz. remember we sort of wondered difference. between seas and lakes.

>> Mhm. He said an inland sea can either be. entirely landlocked or have a single. river connected to the ocean. Inland. seas are larger than lakes and have a. salinity. uh, between a lake and an ocean. >> Mhm. So, I think you mentioned [music]. something about salinity. Uh, they're typically remnants of larger. oceans and have numerous islands, but of. course the scientific community names. these things and sometimes it can be. rather confusing. Uh, the Caspian Sea, for example, is classified as a lake. despite being known as the largest. inland sea in the world and the Hudson. Bay.

uh, is an island sea or which is [music]. Did you know that? An island sea or. inland sea? Well, he says island, but uh, probably meant inland. >> Okay. I didn't know. I had no idea. Whether. it's an island sea or an inland sea, I. had no idea. Or Dylan's favorite sea is [music] the. uh, Ler- Lerapintine Sea. or the Lerapintine Sea. It's an ancient. sea that split Australia in half during. the Cambrian explosion.

Uh, being a long-time listener learning. about new things is the best part of my. commute, guys. That is from Dylan. Thanks a lot, Dylan. That was great. info. I still like your interpretation, Chuck, which I if I remember correctly, you were saying that a an inland. a lake would be landlocked, I think. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like there's no. true definition. I don't know. >> Well, then let's keep going with yours. Great. Nice try, Dylan. Uh, if you want to be like Dylan and. send us a great email, you can send it. off to stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com.

Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. >> [music]. >> For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.