What's Permaculture All About? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. [bell]. >> Hey everybody. Think Spring is here with. our Think Spring playlist. And it's [music] Chuck here to introduce. today's episode. What's permaculture all about? Permaculture is a pretty great thing. And it's. uh you know, if you don't know anything. about it, this can this can teach you. all about it and it may just change the. way you [music] live your life there at. your house. So, give it a try.

>> Welcome [music] to Stuff You Should Know. from howstuffworks.com. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark and there's [music] Charles. W. Chipper Chuck Bryant. And there's. Jerry Rowland and we're all in great. moods everybody because [laughter]. it's Stuff You Should Know time. Everything else just falls to the. wayside when we record Stuff You Should. Know. It's just It's the reason we love.

doing it still after 1,000 episodes. >> Do you realize every single listener. right now is thinking why are they in a. bad mood and why is Josh being so weird? >> I don't think I'm being weird. [laughter] Am I being Am I overselling. it? >> I think so. >> Oh, oh, I'm sorry, buddy. >> It makes it sound like we all three were. in a big fist fight. >> [laughter]. >> and then Jerry hit record. >> Right. And then she's like just jammed a. Kleenex up her nose to staunch the. bleeding. >> Uh I am recovering a bit because we just. got back from New York City. >> Dude, it has been a week.

>> I know. >> So, we did we did show a show Sunday, a. show Monday, and a show Tuesday. All. sold out at the Bell House. >> Uh-huh. >> Traveled home Wednesday and are. recording today, Thursday. >> Yes, and I. just want to say there's no way that. people will ever hear Tuesday's episode. because it was the filthiest thing we've. ever done on stage. >> [laughter]. >> It was. Seriously, man. >> I don't know what got into us. I think. it was night three of three. Uh.

so, that is for the 350 people in that. room. >> Yeah. >> I hope they enjoyed it. >> It was fun. >> It was fun. >> And come on out whenever we do a live. show. You never know if we're just going. to be like, this one's not getting. released. Let's just go crazy. >> Uh-huh. >> You know, especially it was a 21 and up. show, which is really well. >> Well, that's why we for sure why we did. it. >> Yeah. And well, that's what took the. feedback off, you know? >> Uh-huh. >> Isn't that a saying? >> I think so. >> Put the feedback on, take it off. Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. It's not really, but we'll.

just keep press forward. How about that? >> Let's do. >> So, Chuck, uh I I know that you know. this, but not everybody knows this. I. had a personal conversation with one. Charles C. Mann. who wrote my favorite book of all time, 1491. >> That is correct. >> Uh and I was talking to Mr. Mann and he. has a I was talking to him I've got a. show coming out on Existential Risks. eventually. But, um and he's going to be. in it. I mean, it's just like. interviewed for it, but he has a book. coming out this January. And it's called.

The Wizard and the Prophet. Have you. heard of it? >> No, but did you just say that he's going. to be uh part of Existential Risks? >> Yeah, he's an interviewee. >> Oh, that's fantastic. >> Yeah, it's going to be pretty good. I I. was really psyched to to just be able to. talk to him. And even better than that, like, you know, we were kind of rapping. for a few minutes beforehand and it was. just as calm and casual as I had always. like envisioned talking to him. >> That's amazing. >> Yeah, it was a really really neat. conversation. But, he was telling me.

about the book he has coming out, The. Wizard and the Prophet, and it's. basically about. uh him trying to find out how we can. possibly, or even if it is possible, um. sustain 10 billion people on planet. Earth. >> Yeah. >> And not just sustain, meaning like, you. know, keeping them alive, but how could. we do it sustainably? And he goes back and starts digging in. and finds that there's this. long-standing head-butt between the. techno-optimists, the people who are. like, "Well, we humans are smart enough.

to invent our way out of any problem.". >> Yeah. >> And the people who are like, "No, we. need to really like mitigate a lot of. things that we're doing right now to to. make sure that we actually can keep. doing this for the foreseeable future.". Uh and part of it is on Norman Borlaug. um and. >> wizard? >> He is the wizard. That's actually. absolutely right. The. The prophet is a guy named William Vogt, uh v o g t, I believe is his name. And. uh he uh I don't know as nearly as much.

about him as Norman Borlaug, which is to. say I know basically zero about him, but. he's the prophet. So, I will know all. about him when the book comes out in. January. I'm psyched about it. But as I. was researching this permaculture. article, I was like, "You can really see. that that same head-butt, that same push. and pull between people who are saying, 'We need sustainability.' And other. people are like, 'We need to feed, you. know, billions and billions of people.'". And that really. comes together in the debate over per-.

permaculture and whether it works or. whether it is just just a pie-in-the-sky. kind of idea. >> Well, I have a little something to say. >> Okay. >> I am. uh a bit of an ur- well, not a bit. I'm. an urban permaculturist. >> That's awesome. >> We have not me as like I don't know much. of Well, I do know about the stuff now. after researching it, but we. have are redoing our front and. backyards, and we hired a permaculture. company to do so.

>> Really? The perm- permaculture pros? >> [laughter]. >> That's not their name, but it maybe it. should be. >> Yeah. >> Uh. yeah, so we're we're we are like right. in the middle of making our. small little piece of Atlanta. um a po- a permaculture urban permacult-. >> I know, it's hard to say now that I'm. saying it out loud. >> An urban perm habitat, if you will. >> Urb-perm. >> That's right. >> So. >> So I'll be peppering, you know, little. things here and there. >> I think that would help a lot, man.

Because um perma-culture, as it turns. out, and I didn't know really anything. about it until we started researching. this. Um it is a woolly idea. It's tough to. pin down, which is really weird because. it's actually a set of. design principles uh meant to grow food. for people in a way that's sustainable. and not harmful. And it basically stands. in in contradiction of. what you would consider like big modern.

agriculture, which is we grow one kind. of food and we squeeze as much as we. possibly can out of it from the ground. we have using as much artificial. resources as we possibly need to to. increase our yield. >> Yeah, and that's like people throw. around the word sustainable or. unsustainable. Um and maybe people. sometimes folks don't even stop to think. about what that means. Sustainable or I. guess we'll we'll start with. unsustainable. That means that you are. you're depleting resources around you.

and you're depending very much on. bringing in different resources. to make that thing work. >> Right. >> Like you're not just using what's. available. Like that's what sustainable. would be. You're using what's available. It all works together to ideally sustain. itself without saying, "Well, now I need. to bring in this thing. >> Yeah. >> from way over here to make this. these uh 300 acres of corn grow. >> Yeah, I've got to go burn a bunch of. fossil fuels to create nitrogen-based.

fertilizer, and uh it's not going to. attach to the soil very well, so a lot. of it will run off and be wasted, and. even worse, it'll end up in a pond, which will create an algae bloom, which. sucks up all of the uh dissolved oxygen, which creates a fish kill. That's. unsustainable. And And it's weird because I hadn't. really thought about that, either, Chuck, but. as growing up as like kids who were. sentient in the '90s, you hear. unsustainable, and it's just basically. in your mind equated with evil. Like.

almost intentionally malicious acts. against the Earth. And that's just not. necessarily the case. And that That's. another thing about like Norman Borlaug, the wizard, um. he had the greatest of intentions, but. you can also lay at his feet a lot of. the ecological problems we're facing. right now because of agriculture and the. agricultural practices he helped pioneer. in order to feed a bunch of people. So, there's this this this tension between. unsustainability and sustainability, but.

it's also a tension between what's. realistic and what's not, you know? >> Yeah, it's definitely a little sticky. >> It is a little sticky. >> But, uh permaculture basically is trying. to create like a harmonious. holistic approach to. um farming. And whether it be a large. farm or like in my case, like an urban. uh small urban plot. Uh and like I said, we'll kind of go over both of those uh. through my lens and then through the. larger ideas of the farm. Um. And it's not like Robert Lamb wrote this.

article from uh Stuff to Blow Your Mind. He did a good job with it. >> Always does. >> He does. But, um. he does point out that you shouldn't. it doesn't necessarily mean that you. have to go back to caveman days and like. you have to live like Tuk-Tuk and. scavenge the Earth. >> Right. >> Um he said to think of it uh. in terms of a river, like you're a boat. floating down a river. >> [laughter]. >> And you're sustained by that river, but. you're also navigating it as well with. your rudder.

>> And if you have to pee right now, it. just increased tenfold. [laughter]. >> That's right. >> So, uh yeah, it's it's it's not like. just passively taking from the land what. it has to offer. There's still. management of it, right? >> big time. >> But the idea behind that management of. it is is managing the land um in a way. that that the land is happy with. >> Yeah, kind of working with what you got. >> Like you can walk past a dog that's just. sitting there looking at you and maybe, you know, give it like a wink or. something like that and keep walking.

Um that's passive. But if you stop and. scratch it behind the ear, you're. managing that dog in a way or something. like that. You're at least interacting. with it more and the dog likes it. You. could also walk past the dog and like. poke it in the ribs. >> Yeah. >> That's interacting with it in a way that. the dog wouldn't like. >> [laughter]. >> Permaculture's the middle one, right? >> Sure. >> So you're saying, "Hey, I want to get. something out of you like a good. feeling, so I'm going to scratch you. behind the ear, Earth." And again, like. you said, you're doing that by trying to. create a system. uh whether it's your little plot of land.

or a full-scale industrial-size farm um. in in a way that it has it's. sustainable, meaning it requires as few. external inputs as possible. >> That's right. >> But But sorry, I just need to point it. again. It's still being managed. It's. still being managed by you. Just in a. harmonious way. >> Yeah, I I think there is a word for the. other thing where you just uh. just let everything do its thing, right? >> Yeah, I That's nature, maybe. >> Like wilding or something or rewilding?

>> Uh. >> Have we talked about that? >> No. >> I don't remember we did. I'm pro- I'm. probably wrong anyway. >> Although we also thought we didn't do a. cat episode, so who knows if we've. talked about it before or not. >> Uh all right, so this all goes back to. uh Australia. And see you in September of next year, Australia. >> Yep. >> Right? >> Yep. >> Get Get excited. >> Oh, man, you just sold us a million. tickets with that accent, buddy. >> Uh and New Zealand. Um.

So. >> You got to You got to take it better. than that. >> Well, no. I'm I'm super excited about. going to New Zealand. I just I didn't. want to not mention that. >> You say, "And New Zealand.". >> And New Zealand. Uh so, in Australia in the 1970s, there were a couple of dudes named Bill. Mollison and David Holmgren. >> Mhm. >> And I imagine they were sitting around. smoking a joint one night and and the. version that I have in my head, >> Oh, yeah. >> when they dreamed up the word. permaculture in 1978, uh which is basically what we've been.

talking about. This is just put a word. on it. Um. >> Actually, two words, permanent and. agriculture, right? >> Yeah, good point. And they said, "Let's. join those up." And he said, "Right.". >> And that was it. >> That's how it went down. Uh and it's a self-sustaining. alternative to like what you were. talking about, which is mass production. of a single crop. And there are three. basic ethics to the permaculture. movement. >> Yeah. >> Um care for the Earth, care for the. people, and then setting limits on population.

and consumption. >> Right. And so, Mollison, I believe, was a. professor at the time, and Holmgren was a student, and they. they split within a few years. They had creative differences, I guess. you could kind of call it. >> Oh, yeah. >> They both like pursued permaculture, but. through different ways. So, Mollison is. frequently. um accused, or was, I think he may have. passed, um accused of being kind of a. dogmatic um.

charismatic egomaniac, maybe? >> Ooh. >> Where it was like, "It's my way or the. highway.". >> [laughter]. >> Um. and and that that extended to even. principles of permaculture, right? Like. if he said it, it was just that was just. true. Whereas, Holmgren apparently took. a little more of a um. pragmatic approach to studying it, finding out the best practices, discarding the ones that didn't work, even if they were like precious to. everybody including the entire per-. permaculture movement. And and movement.

is actually the right word because there. is like this definite um well, like. Mollison put the cult in permaculture. You know what I'm saying? Like there's. definitely an adherency to it that's. kind of fervent, you know, that that the. whole movement gets criticized for. rightfully or wrongly. >> Yeah. >> But they they're both kind of um I think. the fact that they did split probably. added to this field even more because. there's two different courses of study.

or of um thinking about it at least um. that were able to develop it in tandem. >> Yeah, and this stuff is nothing new. They didn't invent this idea cuz. Tuk-tuk and the gang way back in the. ancient days. >> Mhm. >> did things like this. They worked with. what they had. They didn't have 400. acres of corn. They had they did forest. farming. They had crop rotation. They. composted. They had multiple crops. Uh and they were not just out to be. leading pioneers in environmentalism.

They were That was just the way you. worked the earth back then. >> Right. >> And that's a lot of what permaculture is. all about is. returning to this idea of of just sort. of doing it the smart right way. Uh and. again, this is probably not going to be. the thing that feeds the world. But. that's not to say. you can't have a permaculture movement. and farms and urban permaculture going. on. >> Well, that's one of the things that it. gets criticized about is that people. um who are big-time adherents of.

permaculture do tend to say like. uh yeah, this is this is what we need to. feed the world. And if we don't do this, then the there's not going to be people. around to feed because we're going to. wreck the earth and die from climate. change. >> Yeah, I I get that, but I think I come. from the like reality camp and you're. not going to undo conventional modern. farming. You you're not going to just completely. supplant that anymore. It's kind of too. late. >> I I agree with you. I I'm of the same.

mindset. >> You know. >> Um I do think though that you the these. practices or most of them should be. incorporated as best as possible. >> Sure, that'd be great. >> So I think there's a happy medium. between. you know, big big time monoculture. agriculture and. a pure permaculture. Just because they're both probably. unsustainable for what we need, which is. to feed a bunch of people in a way that. doesn't wreck the earth. >> Agreed. >> Yeah, I'm with you, man. >> Should we take a break?

>> Sure. >> All right, we're going to take a little. uh. little pause for the cause and then come. back. That was so corny. I sound like a. radio DJ. >> It was great, dude. >> Uh and then come back and talk about. design principles of permaculture right. after this. >> [music]. [music]. [music].

[music]. >> Okay, you back? We're back? Are we back? >> I'm back. >> Okay, I'm back, too. Jerry, you back? >> Back. >> She's back. >> She's back. >> So um like I said early on, Chuck, the. the permaculture is a little it's. woolly. It's a woolly idea. There's so. many different definitions of it and as. a result it's it's. image kind of suffers in the mind of. rational skeptics, right? >> Yes. >> But I did find one. um. one definition of it that I thought.

really got the whole point across. >> Hit me. >> The conscious design and maintenance of. agriculturally productive systems, which. have the diversity, stability, and. resilience of natural ecosystems. That's. a big one. There's a second half even. It is the harmonious integration of the. landscape with people providing their. food, energy, shelter, and other. material and non-material needs in a. sustainable way. >> That is a great definition. I agree. wholeheartedly and I'm not sure who.

the actual person who who said or wrote. it was cuz it's it was misattributed it. to at least three different people, but. regardless it's a great definition. >> We should just throw your name in there, too. >> Sure. We'll say I said [laughter] it. So, you said you brought up the three. basic ethics, right? The care for Earth, care for people, and setting limits on. population. I feel like we should kind. of go over those a little in-depth, don't you think? >> Yeah, care for Earth is um. it's not just. like a lot of this is about plants, of. course, but it's also animals and.

insects. and how the air moves through the area. and minerals and in the Earth. Um and it's basically. respecting all of the things within the. ecosystem. >> Right. >> How's that? >> I think that's great. >> What about people? >> Care for people, right? So, basically. that's saying like um. that there's a an importance to. community. That it's every person isn't. just an island, right? And that this is. a good one, too. That access to. resources is a human right.

And it's easy to take that for granted, you know, where in places where you you. have easy access to um land or water or. something like that. But, in places as. diverse as Flint, Michigan. or Central America, there there the. access to good stuff like water is. highly restricted or the water's just. not good. So, the idea that everybody. should have easy, cheap, if not free.

access to something like clean water is. that's a that's a big one. That's that's. kind of radical in a weird way these. days. >> Yeah, and as far as the limits on. population and consumption, Robert puts. it as. recognizing. how you have to reinvest money and. surplus labor and energy into caring for. the planet. >> Mhm. >> Like it's it's it takes work. >> Right. So, those are like the three ethics. That's not how you go permaculture.

That's just kind of the basis for the. designs to permaculture, right? >> Correct. >> And I think um. you said that this is this is not new, right? This is something that's been. around for a very long time or these. some of these ideas or the sustainable. practices are adopted from like. generations and generations of proven. techniques, right? >> Yes. >> Um which is pretty interesting if you. ask me. That's another thing, too. If If. you If you have not read Have you read. 1491 yet?

>> Nope. >> Oh, man. You have to read it. It talks about this. kind of stuff where like they they they. from just looking into it, they've. and they found that there's all these. sophisticated. land management techniques that were. just totally lost to time until um. archaeologists started discovering them. And at first they didn't even realize. what they were looking at. And they'd be. like, "Well, there's a lot of kind of. weird hills in this this area. It's. otherwise pretty flat." And then they. realized, "Oh, wait. This is an entire.

system of berms that used to be planted. and in between the berms were. aquaculture ponds where they raised fish. and they they were just doing all this. sophisticated stuff that no one had any. idea. That book is just all about chasing that. stuff down and figuring it out. So so. good, Chuck. One day you'll read it, right? >> Of course. >> Yeah. >> So, before the break, I promised some. design principles. And there are, believe, like 10 of these. in our article. And it breaks down like this. And this. is.

>> [sighs]. >> This is talking about a farm, but we. have incorporated in this company that's. come in is incorporating these most of. these same principles within like our. place as small as our backyard. For instance, zones. We have divided our. yard up into zones now. Uh and basically in the case of a farm, it's a little bit different. They divide. areas into zones based on. based on the in all this stuff it's just. sort of makes sense. And it's all seems. like it would be intuitive and how. Tuktuq would have done it. So.

it it divides into zones based on like. how much attention certain things need. on the farm and what does it require out. of people in the different areas. And so. if if you think of it as a circle, you. got your farm in the center. So. obviously the stuff that needed the most. attention would be closest to uh the the. the center where the people are. And. then as you go out and out, uh the. activity. uh decreases like the human activity and. things are allowed like maybe trees to.

grow a little more wildly. >> Right. Yeah, so like the zone is kind of. like ripples in in a pond or something, right? They're concent- concentric. circles. >> Yeah. >> Radiating from the center. And I guess. the center is the actual farmer in this. case, your house. >> Uh yeah. >> Okay. So. that's understandable enough. And then you look into something called. sectors. And that's kind of similar it. seems like but it's actually not. With. sectors, again the center of the whole.

the whole uh permaculture. land or whatever. is the farm where the people live or. whatever. And then. it the the zone or the sectors radiate. outwards. So the whole thing is one big. circle around the center, but this time. it's sliced into like like pizza slices. basically. >> All right. I'm hungry enough. >> Okay. So but with that, so that doesn't. mean like you do sectors or zones. These. are two different ways of looking at the.

land. that that will overlay one another, right? And I've seen a couple of places. that recommend if you're setting up a a. permaculture farm, you want to spend. basically an entire year doing nothing. but observing. Don't plant anything, don't cut anything down, don't dig a. pond, don't do anything like that. Just. observe. Figure out where the sun is at. different parts of the year. Where does. the wind come from? Where does the water. go? Um are there pollutants that come onto.

the property that you need to to, you. know, manage? Where do the animals, like if there's. deer that come in and eat the eat the. garden, like where would they be coming. from? And so, that's what you base the. sectors on. And then that that creates kind of like. this underlying map beneath the zones. Does that make sense? >> Yes. >> Okay. I've got that one right? >> Yeah, I think so. >> Okay. >> I mean, I'm sure a permaculture expert. would say, "Oh, boys.".

>> Right. [laughter]. >> Uh relative locations are another. important part of. permaculture. That is basically designing things, and. again, in a way that makes sense. relative to one another. So, the great. example that Robert gives is is planning. a crop downhill from a pond. That way, it's downhill, you don't need to install. a pump system. The whole idea is. sustainability. And so, if you can have. uh the stuff you need to water downhill. from your water, then you have just. created a sustainable environment.

>> Right. >> And that one is um. there's a it's an actual design. principle, like David Holmgren came up. with 12 of them. One of them was called. integrate rather than segregate, and. that one's definitely part of that. >> That's right. >> There's also um having single elements. with multiple functions, right? >> Yes. >> So, going back to that that like a pond. example, um a pond also. um not only serves as a source for. irrigation, but it's also a water source. for your livestock and, depending on.

where you put it, it also acts as a. barrier between your livestock and the. edge of your property. >> Yeah, so you don't even need a fence. because cows aren't going to swim across. the pond. >> No. You can try to find one doing it. They won't do it. >> [laughter]. >> They're lazy. >> Or a hedge. A hedge, uh, lovely hedge. can act as a windbreak. Things like. that. >> Right. Or and and it can also like. produce seeds that your chickens eat, right? >> Right. Or shade if you need shade. >> Right. And so all that, I mean, that. just makes like total sense. Of course.

you want to do that. But when you stop. and think about. the fact that they don't do this on big. modern farms. Like this stuff is not. That's just wasted area where you could. be planting more corn. You know what I. mean? >> Yeah, and they don't do Most people. don't think about this when they're. designing their home backyards, either. They want, uh, they just say this looks. pretty, that looks pretty. >> Mhm. >> Uh, and it and it may be laid out in. such a way that it's completely. unharmonious and working against each.

other at times. >> Right. >> Like why is that thing dying? It's so. pretty. It's like, well, it's not it's. not where it should be. >> Um, another permaculture principle that. stands in stark opposition to. monoculture is having, uh, a single. thing, um, have just one function or have, okay, a. bunch of different things serving as. fail-safes to one another. You see what I'm saying? >> Right. >> So like that pond, um, can also provide water, right? So you.

it's a it's a water reservoir. Um, but. you may also have rain barrels on site. as well. So you have all these different. things serving multiple functions, but. also serving backups to the functions. that they share with one another. >> Right. >> And again, this is. the idea that you're doing this. if you take the time to diversify. Like. this is where the idea that you you. shouldn't put all of your eggs in one. basket, it came from the farm. >> Yeah. >> And this is this like some of these. principles are just getting back to that.

very simple maxim, which is you you have. to diversify. And the more you. diversify, the better off you're going. to be if something befalls like if a. avian flu wipes out your chicken flock. Well, if all you do is raise chickens, you're ruined. >> Yeah. >> Your your family's going to starve. You're going to lose all of your money. and the farm's going to be taken from. you. If chickens are just one part of a. larger holistic farm you have going on, then you lose your chickens and that's. awful, but you still have, you know, you.

can you can cut off a cow's foot and. chew on that for the winter. >> [laughter]. >> You know where the chicken and and the. eggs in the basket comes from, right? >> Where? >> Uh little Bobby Joe going out to get the. chicken eggs one morning. >> Mhm. >> Taking one basket. He says, "Pa, I got them. Don't don't fret." Then he trips on the. way back and breaks all his eggs. And Pa. says, "Put all the chicken eggs in one basket. Now we ain't got no eggs.". >> Yeah. >> And then Bobby Joe says, "Well, then Pa, have more kids or get more baskets.".

>> That's right. And that happened in. December of 1842. >> [laughter]. >> In Georgia. >> That's right. Those are my relatives. >> That was a great Were they chalk tall? >> No, no, no. This is from the other side. of the family. >> The other side, okay. >> Yes. >> I was going to say. >> The redneck side. Uh energy efficiency is a big deal. Using. uh energy efficient designs, whether or. not you're straight-up using like wind. power or solar, or you can just simply, like I said, build things in a way where.

you have natural wind breaks built in or. places to allow the wind to come through. and spread seed and stuff like that. >> Right. Uh my favorite dude of all is the. biological resources. >> Let's hear it. >> So, it's just basically using nature to. help solve the problems that you have, right? So, um Mollison, one of the uh. creators of it, what is his first name. again? Bill. Bill Mollison. He had a. saying, "You don't have a snail problem, you have a duck deficiency." Which is to.

say that [laughter]. if. >> That was a great t-shirt, too. >> It was. For a little while. It was. almost outsold gas, grass, or, you know. >> Yeah. No one rides for free. >> Right. [laughter]. Um but the the the premise of it is that. if you uh are overrun with snails, get. more ducks because the ducks are going. to eat the snails, and it's fine. But. it's good to have ducks cuz they do. other stuff, too. Like they walk around. and poop um all over your property and. they're fertilizing it as they're doing. it, right? >> So, um the just to kind of take a take a.

step back and look at it like, "Okay, what how Just say like, what would. nature do?" That's a great way to solve. your problems through per- permaculture. Um another one is um using pigs. a- or chickens to till the ground and to. actually rotate where you plant crops. every year. And so, this year's pig pen. is next year's crop land because you can. move the pigs onto another area, and. they'll turn it all muddy and turn it up.

and and get it ready for planting uh. just like they did for this year's crop. land that you're using now. >> Pretty great. Insects, too. >> Yeah. >> Very big thing to bring in the right. kinds of plants to attract the right. kinds of insects to take care of the. wrong kinds of insects. >> Right. But. >> I love it. >> this raises an issue though, too. Um one. of the criticisms of permaculture is. like, "Well, where are you going to bring in those. insects from, right?" So, if for. example, if you order ladybugs online, it can actually be really bad for the.

ladybugs that live in your area cuz if. they are lab-raised or farm-raised. ladybugs, they very frequently carry a. parasite that you're bringing now into. your neighborhood and you can wipe out. the existing native ladybug population. So, what do you do? Well, the. permaculture way would be to say, "I. need to attract more native ladybugs cuz. I got aphids on my lemon trees. So, how. do I do that?" Well, you just plant more. high-pollinating plants like sunflowers.

and voila, native ladybugs. parasite-free. >> Love it. I didn't know people bought. ladybugs online. >> Yeah. >> That's a thing. >> I know that cuz I've had aphids before. I looked into it. >> [laughter]. >> You said, "Doc, I got aphids on my lemon. tree.". He's like, "Come here.". >> One in a million shot. >> [laughter]. >> Uh plant succession is another design. principle. Um if you think about how. land was before people were uh messing.

around with it in a natural scene, um. things would just sort of grow and. develop as they. as nature intended and fields uh might. be barren and then grow into weeds and. that might that might eventually grow. into plants that may eventually grow. into trees. And then, what do you know? You have a forest. >> Right. So, Robert makes the case like. that's apparently the natural. progression of a temperate area. >> Yeah. >> That if you leave it alone for long. enough, it's going to turn into a.

forest. I didn't realize that. I guess. it makes sense. So, this is basically. saying, "Well, how can we How can we do. that? If that's the way the plant If. that's the way that the area wants to. be, how can we accommodate that while. also getting um. you know, food food staples from that, too?". >> Right. >> Uh there's also nutrient recycling, which is basically composting. And I was. thinking the other day, I don't answer. enough. when asked what my favorite episode is. Composting is definitely up there.

>> Oh, yeah? >> That was a great one. >> All right. >> If you're digging this episode at all, go listen to composting if you haven't. already. It's a good one. >> Yeah, and finally diversity uh. raising multiple crops. um having different kinds of animals. like we said we kind of been beating up. on corn. but that's the idea is to not have you. know a thousand acres of a thing and. have many different things. So like you. said the benefits there are if if. something. comes along that is an illness to a crop.

you're not wiped out. completely. >> Right. >> You know? >> So speaking of wiping out let's take a. break for a second, okay? >> Are you wiped out? >> I'm a little wiped. I need to regenerate. here. >> Okay. >> Okay. We'll be right back. >> [music]. [music].

>> Okay, we're back. I'm feeling restored, Chuck. >> Good. Well, you took a nap on my. shoulder and that always helps. >> I know. I got a little drool on your sleeve. I'm. sorry. >> big deal. >> Uh okay, so when when you're talking. about this like design principles are. great and and good and they are really. interesting to me. I think ecology is. incredibly fascinating. Um. but they're. to to actually feed people you have to. take them into action and like do.

something. And people have been trying. this, right? To varying degrees of. success and more importantly to varying. degrees of scientific study. Um I ran. across a a professor in I believe the UK. at a place called Schumacher College. Uh. her name is Bethan Staig and she uh I. get the impression Schumacher College is. a little crunchy. I think they're the. fighting granola. >> Little hippy dippy. >> Uh just a tad. Uh but one of the things.

they teach is permaculture and so Bethan. Stagg, one of the professors there, um. uh basically studied this permaculture. next to traditional like gardening. um. uh plots that are the same size. They're. They're like everything's the same. The. amount of wind and rain and sun they're. getting. The difference is one is one is. cultivated in a through permaculture. methods. The other one's more just like. traditional gardening like go buy. fertilizer and stuff like that. >> Who won? Who won?

>> It depends on your definition of won. >> Well, which one was lying dead in a. field afterward? >> [laughter]. >> The the the regular gardener or the. other person? >> They both got a couple of good licks in. on one another. Ultimately, I think most people would. say that the traditional gardening um or. the the normal modern gardening method. won. The reason why it won was because. for 100 for every 100 square meters of. land, it yielded 13 kg of edible food.

>> Okay. >> The permaculture one yielded 2.3 kg per. 100 m. So, far far far less food was. grown. But, there's a couple of things. you got to point out here. There was. also far far far less time put into the. permaculture plot because that's one of. the tenets of permaculture is just like. like plant the stuff and then just. forget about it. You're not ever. supposed to mess with it again except to. to harvest stuff. There's an emphasis on. perennials rather than annuals. There's.

far less inputs that are meant to be. made into it. It's just supposed to be. like a like a little engine you you. build and then start and it just keeps. going forever. >> Yeah. >> So, far less time and far less effort on. the per- permaculture side. So, it kind. of wins in that respect, right? But then also, there was over this. 3-year study, there were also uh at. least 1 year where the weather was. really bad. And so, the uh normal modern. gardening suffered as a result, whereas. the permaculture one, which was more.

diversified, had about the same yield as. the other years. So, so they both won. They're all winners. It's like a soccer game. >> Yeah, and I think the idea too is it's. not like uh. Like that's the kind of test that should. be carried out over 100 years almost. >> Yes. >> And the whole point is though still that. permaculture is not like they're not. saying we will shall create more yield. than any other farm. That's not the. whole point. >> Uh again though, it depends on who you. talk to. There are definitely.

permaculture adherents out there who. think that anyone who doesn't use. permaculture is an idiot who's ruin. ruining the planet and this is the way. >> No, I'm not saying that, but are they. saying that they can they can provide. more yield than conventional farming? >> I think if you back them into a corner, they would probably hedge that, but I. think that when they're amongst. themselves, they may, yes. >> Okay. >> [laughter]. >> Like you guys totally know we can't come. No, okay. We're just going to talk about. it. >> Shut up, [laughter] Simon.

>> Um so there are people doing this to. varying degrees all over the world. whether or not is uh if you have a full. scale permaculture farm, then you are. uh almost 100% likely to be a. permaculture permaculture activist or an. educator. Um it's not something you're doing. lightly. You may also be. someone who's like, well, you know, part. of my part of my farm here I'm I'm doing. in the in such a manner. Part of it I'm. not. Um but there are things that you can do.

even at your own home. like a forest garden. >> Well, that that's like what permaculture. seems to really be best at is is. backyard gardening. >> Yeah. >> So tell them about the forest garden cuz. I found this fascinating, man. >> [snorts]. >> Yeah, I mean if you've got a if you have. a back lawn that is just a a big grass. lawn, um and you know, during our grass. episode we. we didn't get preachy, but a lot of. people will say like, that's the worst. thing you can do is just to have a huge.

flat thing of grass. >> Right. >> Uh as far as what's good for the earth, and that's the total. Uh I mean, wasn't that I think I. remember we talked about that literally. being just like a an American creation. in the 50s or something? >> No, it was even older than that. Yeah, but yeah, I'm pretty sure it was pretty. American. >> Yeah. >> Maybe English. >> So, a forest garden is a food garden. that you build or plant. You build it out of wood and iron.

>> Right. >> Uh in your backyard to that imitates a. natural forest. You're trying to sort of. replicate what you might find in that. natural setting in your yard. Uh and. this is going to like you said, make. things. a little easier on you because you're. not going to have to rotate crops or. till like you normally would. >> Mhm. >> Um. and everything's just sort of working. together, and and Robert has sort of a. four-part example for layers, if you. will. Uh starting with trees, which are going. to obviously the biggest thing in that.

forest garden. They're going to uh. eat most of that sunlight, but they're. also going to let dappled light through, which can be great growing conditions. for certain things. >> Right. Um so, the there's you're going. to grow things like blackberries or leaf. lettuce or strawberries. Um any vines. that are shade loving that. that produce food. But, the the point of. this is like the tree isn't just like, well, here's a tree, isn't that great?

Um it's like the tree also provides uh. stability for the vine to climb up, right? Or like you said, it provides. shade for these shade loving plants. And. I guess the point, and I didn't really. see anywhere. explained why people do this. I know. it's like an ancient technique from um. South America, I believe. Like in the. Brazilian rainforest, it's used to great. impact. >> What, the trees? >> Yeah, forest agroforestry basically is. is what it's called. But, um the I I.

didn't really see what the benefits of. it are, especially if it limits you to. shade-loving food plants, right? Cuz. there's plenty of food plants out there. that don't love shade, isn't that. correct? >> Yeah, it was I guess let me. talk about what we're doing. >> Okay. >> So, this lady came in and she's a. company owner and she. takes a look at our yard and she's. basically instead of saying, "Hey, let's. plant. a tree that will take 20 years to grow. to provide whatever shade." And then go,

she's like, "Let's Let's look at what. you got now." Cuz Atlanta is an urban. forest on its own, >> Mhm. >> as you know. >> Mhm. >> And there are trees everywhere. So, we. we had existing trees and stuff. And she. basically just sort of looks at. everything, draws up a design, and then comes back. to us and said, "Here's what we're going. to do.". Um and that she's working mainly with. Emily cuz this was sort of her. initiative and she knew more about it. than I did. And Emily is more of the. gardener in the family. >> Way to go, Emily. >> Yeah, but uh I was on board, you know,

and I was sitting in on these meetings. going, "This sounds great. This sounds. great." Uh so, she would say, "All. right, you have shade over here. So, why. don't we think about this here? Um like blueberry bushes. Um this is. where you might want to think about. putting your herbs. And downwind from. there, um because of how the way the. wind blows through your yard, you might. want to think about this there. And we. can move like we had certain things that. we wanted to keep. >> Mhm. >> like some azaleas and some roses and. things. And she was like, "We got to. move those cuz they're not in the right. place. So, we'll put that over here, move this over there." And then before.

you know it, she's drawn a schematic for. a sustainable. backyard that all works together and you. know, that the insects from the one. plant are close to the. where they need to be to to help kill. insects that affect the other plant. >> Right. >> And you know, which I. Well, it's probably not great to get too. wonky over my yard, but it it does all. works together in harmony. And we're. doing it in stages. Uh the main thing. big big change that we've done aside.

from rearranging and planting new things. is we got a uh a cistern finally. So, we have a big huge. Jeez, I don't even know how many. gallons. I want to say like 500 gallon. >> No. >> It's large. >> Wow. >> I mean, it's as big as. >> That's a That's a above ground swimming. pool, I think you're describing. >> Is it Is it too many gallons? >> 500, that's a lot. >> I don't know. Let's Let's say this. It. is as big as a. It's like half as big as a Volkswagen.

Beetle. >> Wow. >> It's large. So, this is under our deck. So, it's not. an eyesore or anything. Um. all the gutters in the house, all the. water that falls onto our roof. >> Mhm. >> is fed into the cistern. And then that cistern has pipes that. they trenched, and they go all. underground throughout the whole yard, >> Mhm. >> and just sort of uh leech water where it. needs to be. >> Neat. >> And then there's also a couple of pumps. Uh we didn't have spigots in our. backyard. >> [snorts]. >> Um we still don't. It's been awful, you.

know, we haven't had a We've had to run. like hundreds of feet of hose. every time we wanted to water anything. Uh and it just feels wasteful anyway. >> Right. >> And so, we didn't have backyard spigots, and now we have these two posts with the. little pumps. And uh it's. sort of gravity-fed in a way. Like, if. the cistern is full, and you turn that. pump on, >> Mhm. >> it'll water will flow some. But then we. have an actual pump installed on the. cistern to where we can actually use a. sprinkler if we want to. >> But but the the pump is squirrel-run by.

a hamster wheel, right? >> I wish. >> And it's it's located in the um the uh. chestnut tree, so it [laughter] is going. to attract the squirrels anyway. >> No, it sadly it does run on electricity. I wish it was hooked up to solar, but uh. we're not that far along yet. >> That's pretty cool though, man. That's a. that's a neat. plan you got going. >> It is pretty awesome. And guess what? We. have a swale. >> Oh, I was hoping we were going to be. able to talk about swales. I love. swales. >> Robert didn't include this in his. article, but I sent you a thing on.

swales. And we have a swale, which is to. say in the back right corner of our yard. now, we have a. a tiny pond. It's only about 5 ft across. uh by 5 ft across, and it is round, and. it has a. a a like a round berm around it. So, uh you know, it's like a little hill. And a swale, the definition of a swale, it is a is a level ditch that is dug. across. uh whatever site you're in with the.

purpose of stopping the flow of water in. order to make the water slowly filter. into the land. >> Right. >> instead of rushing over it. And the idea. there is is that most people design. their yards. uh. so water won't accumulate and it will. run it's graded in such a way that water. it rainwater will just run off of it as. quickly as possible. >> Right. >> And that's, you know, that's very. wasteful, and that's not how the ground. the ground is supposed to accept the. water. I know that sounds so hippie. >> Right. >> But in an ideal situation, the ground.

accepts the water into it, and it's not. dry a day later. It is actually feeding. the ground. And so this swale now. has uh has a. a runoff from the uh cistern. So, when. the cistern gets too full, the water. will then run out into the swale and. just sort of slowly leach into the. ground around it. Or if we get just tons. and tons of rain, obviously the swale. will collect it and the water will leach. into the ground around it. >> That is very cool. That is swale. >> It's It is super swale.

>> [laughter]. >> But it was an important part like this. lady came over she's like we got to have. a swale. >> Yeah. >> And I all right. >> swales are my biggest seller. >> And right now it's not the the most. attractive thing in the world but over. time. we're planning instead of grass in. between everything or even mulch we're. doing ground cover. I can't remember the. specific variety. But ground cover or or mulch are the two. most sustainable ways to treat your yard. period. >> Mhm. Yeah, that makes sense because the the.

mulch will break down, right? Yeah. Degrade and and become nutrients. >> Yeah, so it's it's pretty neat like we. got a good scene. It's going to be. years in the making. >> Well, that's another thing too. I mean. like you got to be very patient with. this kind of stuff. >> Yeah, but we're in though. >> That's great, man. Congratulations. >> We're not going anywhere. >> There are and I'm wondering um I you. seem to have a pretty realistic approach. to permaculture though like you're not. going to save the world with your. backyard, it sounds like but it's. certainly not hurting. some of the issues that the the world is.

facing, right? >> No, we're just trying to create our own. little sustainable habitat. >> So there are there are we should mention. some criticisms of permaculture, a lot. of criticisms of permaculture we should. say but um. they you know, we've kind of hit on a. couple of them but the big one probably. is that it's not rigorously tested. scientifically enough. That it's just. kind of taken like oh yeah, that didn't. that would work intuitively. And then. that it's just left at that in a lot of. ways. So there are people like uh Beth.

and Stags who I mentioned and and other. people around the world who are starting. to apply science to these things to say. this one works, let's keep at it. Uh. this one works better if you do it this. way or this one doesn't work at all, don't waste your time. >> Right. >> Um. and as long as they're doing that uh. permaculture. deserves any respect it can get because. it really is again intuitively it makes. a lot of sense but um. that doesn't necessarily mean that it. it's true in fact, which is why you got.

to study that kind of thing. >> Yeah, and the other thing that I saw in. the Roberts article that did make sense. to me was. one of the criticisms was to Mollison. himself because he. apparently. had a stress on bringing in exotic. plants. >> Mhm. >> Uh, and that goes counter to everything. that our lady for her company talked. about. She was all about native plants. Like only native plants. >> And Mollison's response was, well, we've. already screwed up the Earth so bad that. it we're not trying to preserve.

ecosystems as they are, specifically, we're um, we're we're trying to make. them better through management. It's. like, um, actually you just contradicted. everything you said back in 1978. And I think that's a pretty good example. of from what I understand of that guy. He's like, well, this is what I'm saying. now, so this is true. >> Got you. >> You know what I mean? That's just and. I've never met him, never heard him. speak, anything like that. Just from. reading about him, that's the impression. that I have. >> Got you. >> So, uh, to the Mollison family, sorry if. that's not right.

>> [laughter]. >> You got anything else? >> Got nothing else. You you have to come. over in in 2 years. >> I. >> [laughter]. >> I'll take you up on that. >> you to see it now. >> I've been waiting for this invitation. for 10 years. [laughter]. >> Well, it's going to be 12 total, so. >> 12 total, all right. Uh, if you want to. know more about permaculture, you can. type that word into the search bar at. HowStuffWorks, and uh, since I said. search bar, it's time for listener mail. >> I'm going to call this harrowing story. from a uh, fashion design intern.

[music]. >> Yeah. >> It's a good one, and I got her. permission. >> Mhm. >> Uh, hey guys, listen to Internships. Wanted to say thanks for addressing this. issue. When I was in college, I went to. work or I wanted to work in the fashion. industry, and the internship process was. very difficult and exploitative. [music]. I managed to somehow get an internship. without any connections, uh, which felt nearly impossible, and. worked my first gig for a top designer. And. >> [music]. >> she did not name the designer in a. follow-up email, she did, but then said, "Maybe don't read it.".

>> Okay. >> But, it's a top designer. >> Okay. >> And not only was the internship unpaid. in one of the most [music] expensive. cities in the world, but I was also. expected to wear an all black. fashionable wardrobe at all times. >> Mhm. >> So, I had to find housing in New York, buy all new clothes. Uh luckily, my. parents were able to help me out there, but I hated how prohibitive the whole. thing was. [music]. Uh while I was with that designer, the. uh Condé Nast lawsuits were going on, and I remember people saying [music]. the lawsuit was was just another example.

of stereotypical millennial entitlement. That's obviously not the case, because. as you mentioned, it's a social issue. Because of my internship, I was able to. get more experiences [music]. in the fashion industry, and eventually. a full-time job in New York after I. graduated. >> [music]. >> Everyone I work with now had unpaid. fashion internships, and almost everyone. I work with is white, upper class, and. from a good school. Unpaid internships. have led to bigger problems in diversity. that I think uh really have hurt the. fashion industry. You always hear about.

how retail and department stores are. dying. Uh well, all the companies are. run by old, white, straight [music]. dudes, and we lack a variety of. perspectives, which prevents innovation. I'm glad I had internships, and I. learned a lot, but I think the. internship market really needs to. change. So, thanks again for addressing. this. Hope a lot of people listen to. your podcast, and reevaluate how they do. things at their own companies. And that. is from Gail. >> Thanks a lot, Gail. Nice one. >> Yeah, a great one, actually. >> Uh if you want to get in touch with us. like Gail did, you can tweet to us. I'm.

at SYSKPodcast or at Josh um Clark. Chuck's at Charles W. Chuck Bryant on. Facebook, [music] and at Stuff You. Should Know on Facebook. I'm on there, too, somewhere, although I'm not sure. where. You can send us all an email, including Jeri, j e r i to. stuffbuzzpodcast@howstuffworks.com. and in the meantime hang out with us at. our home on the web. stuffyoushouldknow.com. >> For more on this [music] and thousands. of other topics visit howstuffworks.com.