The Unsolved Murder of Hall and Mills | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and this is. another edition of Stuff You Should. Knows ongoing. low-key true crime. Sweet. >> Yeah, it's been a while. I feel like. >> I'm trying to think of the last one. Yeah, I mean clearly it has been if I. can't think of the last one, but. >> yeah,

>> I like it. Every once in a while I was. just kind of add to it and it's just. this kind of thing cuz they're they're. interesting, especially if you're not. looking at them like a a total gawker, you know? >> Agreed. >> So, we're talking today about one I. hadn't heard of. Let me ask you this. before we get started. >> Yeah. >> Did you get your idea from People. magazine? >> No. Because People magazine ran an. article on this very murder uh on June. 26th, 2025. >> Oh, really?

>> Yes. Like, where did you get this idea? >> Well, I know it wasn't People because, you know, I just I didn't read People. I'm not I'm not against it if I'm like, you know, waiting for the doctor or. something. >> Well, you're really digging yourself. into a hole here. >> I'll pick up a People magazine. That's. fine. Uh, I'm wondering now if this was. a listener suggestion that I need to. look up. >> I searched it and I did not see anything. about it. That's why I was like, "Holy. cow, People magazine. He he really got. it from there.". >> I don't know. Maybe I mean, sometimes I.

might go so low as to uh search for, you. know, unsolved crimes or something. I. don't know. >> Sure, there's nothing wrong with that. >> Look for ideas. Well, the crazy thing. about this is um it's I've seen it. described as like the first truly. sensationalized trial of the century in. the United States or that it was like. their first big trial of the century, something like that. And it was. definitely up there. I've seen it. compare with some other ones. >> Yeah. >> That came later closely on the heels. Uh.

but I had never heard any of this. I've. never heard of any of these people. And. yet some other people say, "Hey, this. might have even inspired uh The Great. Gatsby in some ways.". >> I I I have a feeling that's how it came. to me. And now I'm wondering if that was. the search term that I should have used. for uh listener suggestion. >> Oh, Great Gatsby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't search for that either. Well, we'll have to get to the bottom of. this like a couple of True Detectives.

>> I feel like we're letting someone down. >> Yeah, we probably are. But we we do need. to get their name. I wonder if it if. this thing is sent post June 26, 2025. >> Yeah. >> Bet they got it from People. >> Okay. >> Because the People magazine article, like in the headline, it said that it it. inspired The Great Gatsby. >> Uh yeah. I mean, I definitely remember. that's what drew my attention to it. But. if you're trying to root me out as a. People magazine reader, you're going to. fail.

>> I'm not going to stop. I'm not going to. stop until I'm successful. So, just look. out, buddy, because you're in my. crosshairs now. >> Who knows? >> So, let's talk about this crime. This, in short, there was a reverend, uh, well-known reverend in, uh, New. Brunswick, New Jersey, home of Ruckers. >> Um, and this reverend was having an. affair with one of his church members, a. woman named Ellaner Mills. The. reverend's name was Edward Hall. He was. about seven years her senior from what I. understand. >> Yeah. And um one night or one morning I.

should say they turned up murdered, brutally murdered. Uh and it became, like I said, a very sensational story. Not just in New Brunswick, not just in. nearby New York, but everywhere across. the country. I would guess probably out. of the country as well. >> Who knows? >> How would you ever find something like. that out? >> I don't know. >> People magazine probably. >> Yeah, probably. People international. Mhm. Uh so yeah, Ed Hall was uh in his.

early 40s, 41 years old at the time of. his death. And he was uh pastor, like he. said, at St. John's Episcopal, about 20. miles from where I lived in New Jersey. >> Oh, yeah. >> Uh yeah, that's right. And his wife's. name was uh Francis Hall. Uh she was 7. years older than him. Uh interestingly, because I guess his uh mistress. Elellanar Mills was seven years younger. >> Anything to that? I think it's just a. fluke of uh nature.

>> Yeah, I think so, too. Uh but and this. is kind of key here. Uh she his wife had. come from a you know, it seems like a. pretty wealthy, wellto-do, well-connected family in the area. >> Uh because he was just a pastor and uh. you know, they did they didn't make a. lot of dough yet. They lived in a really. fancy house. They had a chauffeur. Uh. they had a staff. They had maids that. worked there uh which will come into. play in this story. and they had been. married about 11 years. Uh his uh. mistress who was also brutally murdered.

Uh she was a homemaker married to a. school janitor named James who also kind. of helped take care of the church. They. had a couple of kids. She sang in the. choir and this is also key. She acted as. sort of a very close personal assistant. to the reverend. Like very closely. assisted him if you know what I'm. saying. >> Yeah, I do know what you're saying. Um, so one other thing about Edward Hall and. his wife Francis's fortune, he. apparently when he first got to take.

over the church, um, the St. John's. Episcopal Church, it was a hostile. takeover. Um, he started courting uh, a. lovely parishioner, but she didn't. really have any money. He dropped her. and put his sights on um, Francis. Stevens, who would become Francis Hall, his wife. And from what I've read, there's not a lot of note or there. wasn't a lot of note about Francis. Stevens aside from her wealth. And she. was wealthy. She shared a what would be. worth today a $40 million fortune.

between herself and her two other. brothers. So, she was definitely. wealthy. And so, in addition to running. around on her, uh, he also seemed to. just have been after her money. And. let's not forget he's an Episcopal. reverend leading an entire church. So. that to me when I put all those things. together I was like I don't really like. this guy. >> Yeah. Uh yeah, fair enough. Um so it was not a. secret uh among the church you know it. was kind of one of those things you know. back in 1922 where uh people might it.

might have been pretty clear and even. probably in a modern day church that. somebody was having an affair but you. didn't really talk about that kind of. thing. Mhm. >> And so it was basically an open secret. Uh after, you know, the the sermons and. after Sunday would end, they would spend. a lot of time together in his study. Uh. apparently they would leave um love. notes and that that will come into play. in the story for each other with a. little secret system where they would uh. put it in a book on his shelf and trade. notes that way. >> What book do you think it was?

>> The Great Gatsby. >> Just kidding. >> They traveled in time. They did. Uh the. day that the news broke though, the New. York's time uh the New York Times came. out and said, and this is how they would. have to put this kind of thing back. then. They said they had long been. friendly, >> right? So yeah, like you said, this is. an open secret. Apparently their their. spouses knew. James Mills and um Francis. Hall both seem to have known about the. affair. For one, when they turned up.

missing that first day, apparently. Francis Hall, the first time she spoke. to James Mill, his her husband's. mistress's husband, James said, "Do you. think they eloped?" That was his. response when he found out that they. were both missing. And apparently, also, this is important too, Francis Hall had. a informal network of spies among the. congregation who kept tabs on those two. and informed her of their doings.

essentially. So, both of them knew full. well what was going on, >> right? They knew, but they didn't uh. project that publicly. Publicly, they. they both said. >> like my head didn't know this was going. on. And as we'll see later in court, she. even testified that, you know, her. marriage was perfect and those uh these. supposed love notes are fake and uh they. were not having an affair. >> No, for sure. I think her first public. response was ga.

>> So on the day of the murder, this was. Thursday, September 14th, uh they each, you know, left their respective houses. and another couple reported seeing them. meeting up on a bridge nearby. And then. a couple of days later, uh another. couple came forward. Um this woman named. well woman, she was 15 years old. She. was a young girl named Pearl Bomber. Uh. yet she was in a relationship cuz this. was in 1922 with a guy who was anywhere. from 19 to 23. Who can tell? Uh his name.

was Raymond Schneider. They came upon. the bodies a couple of days later uh on. Old Phillips Farm. This is the other. side of the Raritan River there. And. this was about 10:30 in the morning. They went to the closest house, had the. owner call the cops, and the cops showed. up pretty quickly. >> Yeah. And the the bodies they it was. pretty disturbing. So, they've been left. on a path off of Darusi's Lane. This is. a dirt road, I think, in Somerset. County. And it was a well-known lover's. lane. Like, this is the kind of time. where you had to go out to a lover's.

lane to either have an affair or have. premarital sex or both. This is where. their bodies were found on a path off of. this lover's lane. Right. >> Yeah. >> A Reverend Hall had been shot once. through the temple and exited the. opposite temple. Um, and that was it for. him. But Eleanor Mills, his mistress, she had really been worked over, right? >> Yeah. Uh she was shot three times in the. head and her neck was cut so severely uh.

that she was close to being decapitated. Um his shot was point blank, sort of, you know, what we' call execution style. with a 32 caliber pistol. >> And the bodies were posed together after. that. They were under a crab apple tree. Um kind of posed as cuddling lovers. uh. her uh her head was placed on his arm, not you know, separate from her body, just laid against him. And a scarf was. draped over her cutthroat. And he had a. hat um a Panama hat kind of partially.

covering his face. So, you know, from 20. yards away or whatever. It looked like a. couple just sort of laying there. cuddling, maybe taking a nap under a. tree. >> Yeah. So, that's how that's how they. were found. But apparently as uh Pearl. and Raymond were coming upon them, they. saw very quickly that they were dead. Um. there was one other thing that wasn't. noted at the time when the bodies were. found in 1922, but it would be noted uh. when the case was reignited four years. later in 1926. Uh that um that Eleanor.

Mills tongue and vocal cords had been. cut out and removed that had been missed. in the first autopsy, but a subsequent. autopsy found that. So, this was the. state that these bodies were found in. Um, I think also, uh, the Reverend, um, Hall's business card was found propped. up against his foot. I think that's the. only other thing we left out. Oh, no. There's one other thing. This is really. important, too. This is the clue to me. You ready, Chuck? >> I'm ready. >> There were love letters that Eleanor.

Mills had written to Edward Hall, the. Reverend Hall, and they had been placed. all around them. Uh, so this this was a. highly staged crime scene. Not just the. bodies were staged, but there were. actual like props involved among an. executed and a mutilated body left out. in in public essentially to be found. almost immediately after they were. killed. >> Yeah. I mean, the business card almost. feels like, hey, if anyone stumbles upon.

this who's not from around here, this is. who this is. >> That's right. >> You know? >> Yeah, for sure. Like what else could. that be? >> I don't know. I mean, they're sending. some sort of message. If that's not it, there's something else that they're. sending. Like that's uh that's pretty in. your face, you know? >> Yeah, for sure. So, the bodies were. found. Uh locals, you know, word gets. around a little bit. Locals start. showing up. Then once the new newspapers. get a hold of it, like you said earlier, it became a big deal. And I guess this. was such a sensational thing in a time.

where this kind of thing didn't happen. much that like people really started. coming to this town to like just see. what happened. They wanted to walk on. the the grounds of that road and near. that farm and they wanted to uh like. literally take pieces of that tree and. dig up dirt around there as a keepsake. Uh apparently they said, you know, they. were showing up at a rate of a thousand. cars a day. Sounds a little overblown, maybe. >> Mhm. Uh but there were like vendors. selling popcorn and balloons and uh you.

know the dirt they were selling for 25. cents a bag. It was really out of hand. very quickly. >> You know what it reminded me of was like. the circus atmosphere that grew up when. Floyd Collins was trapped in Sand Cave. >> Yeah. >> Around it was around the same time. So. people were just. >> looking for something to do. >> Pretty bored apparently. >> Yeah. >> So yeah, it was a big deal and there was. a huge problem with the all of those. people showing up. uh combined with uh. incompetent um an incompetent police.

investigation and that was that these. people trod all over the crime scene. >> Um they apparently messed with the. scarf. They took samples from the tree. Apparently the tree was stripped of. everything except its trunk after. everyone was done with it. >> There was the guy selling the dirt. Um. this stuff was really important. Like. for example, the dirt was important. because that's how they would establish. whether those two had been murdered in. the spot they were found in or murdered.

somewhere else and transported because. the blood they found trickled into the. dirt, which is a sure sign that they had. had been killed there on the on the. spot. Um, but with people stealing dirt. from that, there goes all of that. evidence, too. So, the crime scene was. completely useless. And this is at a. time when people knew like, no, you. really need to preserve crime scenes. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, I think that's a. good spot for a break. Eh, >> a. >> All right. Well, since Josh said a, uh,

we're going to take a little break and. come back with more of this grizzly. murder right after this. [Music]. My. [Applause]. [Music]. [Music]. satisfaction. [Music].

All right. So, we're back. Uh when we. last left you, Josh was sort of. detailing the problems with the crime. scene and people trotting about and. messing that up. And you mentioned. something about a uh the police work. wasn't so good. One of the issues was, and this is something it seems like it. happens a lot if you believe TV and. movies at least, is that there were. various jurisdictions kind of battling.

for this case. >> Uh they lived in Middle Sex County. Um. the old Phillips farm was in Somerset. County like you mentioned. Yeah. >> And initially, like you said, they. didn't even knew where the murders took. place. Uh they later found out that they. were alive when they got to the farm. >> So they finally found that out. But at. the beginning, you had Middle Sex County. and Somerset County both saying like, "No, this is my case. This is my case.". And for a while, it seems like for a. pretty great while, they had two sort of. separate investigations going on, which.

never, at least in the movies, seems to. be a good idea. No, not at all. Apparently the governor had to get. involved and be like, "You guys need to. to join forces." And they eventually. did. >> But I mean, this is this happened for I. don't know exactly how long, but long. enough for it to be significant enough. to mention. And this is a really. important time during an investigation, the first several hours. 48 you might. even say. >> Yeah, that's what they say. >> So, um, there was a statement that was. issued um that that Miss Mrs. Paul.

issued uh essentially to back up a. theory that had been um posed that this. was a robbery. It was a robbery gone. wrong and a woman named Sally Peters. acted as Mrs. Hall's um spokeswoman. apparently for for most of this this. time because Mrs. Hall didn't really. want to be seen in public. So, her good. friends stepped up and essentially they. pointed out um that uh Mrs. Hall's. husband, the Reverend Hall, he walked. around with a gold watch and he in his.

wallet he typically carried about $50, which is like $1,000 today. That's what. he walked around a jerk. >> That's $1,000 of cash in their wallet. >> A guy who who marries a woman for her. money and then runs around on her almost. publicly. >> Yeah, probably. So, >> and that those things were missing when. they were found. So, they had been. robbed, right? But the question was, was. that really the motive behind this. murder where um Eleanor Mills's throat. had been cut to the backbone and they've. been staged in some really weird ways,

right? >> Yeah, for sure. So, uh this is the. Middle Sex uh assistant prosecutor at. first because again, they were. conducting separate investigations. Uh. this guy's name was John Tulin and he. came out and said, "Hey, wait, wait a. minute." uh basically I mean he couldn't. come right out and accuse her but he was. basically like hey there's no. information to back this up kind of. listen to our statements and maybe not. the ones from the from the deceased. family. >> right. >> um I'm sure he had to couch that because. she was from a wealthy family but he.

basically said hey um there's no. evidence to back this up and um we think. that and this to me is a little hinky. but he said if it was a robber he. wouldn't have been using a 32 he would. have been using a larger caliber which. to me doesn't really make much sense. >> He would have been using a 44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world. >> Do you feel lucky? >> Um, so there was another theory too that. I I hadn't heard of, but kind of makes. sense. Apparently, the clan um had. recently become highly active in the uh.

the area um around that time. And they. were known for severely punishing moral. transgressions like affairs. >> Yeah. But not their own. No, of course. not. So, if they had come upon or had. targeted these two, because I mean, if. this was an open secret and this guy's a. prominent member of the community, it. they could have been a target for the. clan to punish somebody like that. So, that that was a decent theory, but it.

didn't really go too far, at least at. first. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, and we mentioned. this next one just because it was has. been mentioned, but it really also went. nowhere. Uh but very briefly there were. um apparently there were two Italians. who had showed up in New Brunswick and. uh they had revolvers like that was. known that there were these two Italian. guys who no one knew and they had guns. but that was just a very quick sort of. uh they had nothing to do with it kind. of deal. >> for sure. That's just what you did in. 1922 when somebody turned up murder.

where how many Italians came into town. >> Exactly. So, um, the cops were like, "Okay, like we can't possibly like train our. sights on, um, on the wealthy widow and. her family. Let's see who else we can. blame to just basically make the public. let us make this go away, right?" Yeah. They were just looking for somebody to. pin it on. and the they turned their. attention to the the two people uh Pearl. Balmer and Ray Schneider who had um run.

over to a farmhouse and told the woman, "We just found some bodies. Call the. police." Right when they found the. bodies, they were like, "That seems a. little fishy. We're going to start. looking at you guys because you're. probably just providing your own alibis. Who would possibly call in uh finding. the bodies of a murder they just. committed?". >> Yeah, for sure. So, um, they discovered. like, hey, they were also on the farm. that night cuz this was remember 2 days. later in the morning when they when they. called it in, but they said, hey, they.

were also there that night. Uh, a couple. of weeks after that, um, those two and. then a couple of other friends of theirs. that were also with him that night, a. guy named Clifford Hayes and a. 15-year-old kid named Leon Calfman. They. were all four brought in for what sounds. like a straight 24 hours of questioning, which is always very suspicious, you. know, when you try and get someone to. their weakest point. So, they signed. some weird false confession. >> So, they wore them out uh questioning. for a full day and night. And at the end.

of this, uh, Ray Schneider, uh, the. original guy who reported it with his. young girlfriend, um, signed a statement. that said, "Hey, around midnight that. night, uh, me and Clifford Hayes, my. buddy, uh, came across a couple of. people sitting on the ground near that. farmhouse. I thought it was my. girlfriend and her father, and I had. been looking for her. I was pretty. jealous, and so Hayes shot both of. them." Um, and it sounds like it might.

have been like a favor to him. None of. this really adds up because it wasn't. like he had found her with some other. guy and he was angry and his friends. like, "I'll get even for you." None of. this really make makes much much sense. to me at least. >> Well, the only thing I saw was that I. saw somewhere somebody said that they. believed that Pearl was being molested. by her father. That still doesn't make. sense why she would be shot as well. >> Yeah. I mean, it's all very hanky, but. um Ray Schneider basically uh in the.

statement at least said, "We realized it. was not them. We ran away." And so my my. girlfriend and this other kid, Leon. Calfman, also said, "Yeah, you know, parts of this are true." And Schneider. did have a gun. Uh he also had a pocketk. knife. And so in the end, they arrested. Clifford Hayes uh and charged him with. the murders. >> They did. Um, and immediately the press. who was really paying attention to this. and the public who were reading these.

stories were like, "Are you guys dumb?". Like, "Are you kidding? This is who. you've come up with." There was It. didn't take into account again. So, does. that mean that Clifford Hayes after his. friend um Ray Schneider ran off his. friend who he' taken it upon himself to. execute. >> the man's girlfriend and her father. >> Yeah. that he went over and was like, "Well, I better almost cut this woman's. head off and stage these bodies like. this.". >> But every single um theory is just dumb.

because they can't take into account the. most important clue in this whole. >> this whole murder. >> case, the love letters. >> Yeah. How would this guy Clifford Hayes have. any access to the love letters between. those two from Mills to Hall? How would. they have had access to that? How would. the clan have had access to that? How. would somebody who was robbing them and. the robbery went wrong? How would they. have access to that? Those are the.

clues. So much so that I'm quite certain. that the people who killed uh this uh. these this couple were like, "Oh, that. was so stupid afterward. like why did we. put the letters down? They luckily got. away with it, but that was to me that's. just that's there you go. There's your. answer right there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I mean, it it's all. just so fishy and ludicrous that they. they arrested this kid. So, the you. know, there was real backlash back then. even like you said, everybody like no. one really believed what was going on.

And the story had all these holes in it. Um there were a couple of other like. sort of weird details that came out of. the subplot that. >> didn't really lend itself to to solving. it, but um the press basically uncovered. some stuff that uh Schneider, who was uh. dating, you know, the 15-year-old Pearl, uh he was actually married uh Clifford. Hayes, who they arrested for the for the. murder, um supposedly he had dated Pearl. at one point. Um but you know again none.

of this made any kind of sense at all. Like within a few days Ray Schneider was. like yeah you know what that that's not. true. So they sentenced him to uh u a. term at a reformatory for making false. statements and then young Pearl was sent. to the house of the good shepherd for. weward girls in Newark which I'm sure. was just a great place. >> I'm sure too. >> Sarcasm. >> Yeah for sure. And then Ray Ray. Schneider being sentenced for his false. statement. So he had a coerced statement.

beaten out of him and then he gets. sentenced for for giving it. >> Yeah. Oh, was he beaten? >> I'm sure he was. We're talking 1922 and. the police are trying to get a. confession over a 24-hour period of. questioning out of this guy who signs a. false confession. I would say he might. >> I just want to make sure no uh family. members of those cops comes forward and. sues you. >> for sure. But you saw as well as I did. in People magazine that they said it. too.

>> Uh, all right. Shall we go on or should. we take another break? Maybe go on a. little more. >> Yeah, let's go on a little more. >> All right. Take it away. >> Oh, okay. So, um, finally the the. public, it's just the police who are. studiously avoiding looking at Francis. Hall, her her two brothers, and. eventually her cousin, >> all would all of whom would be. implicated in this crime. um that it was. just the cops and the prosecutors who. were trying not to look at them. The. rest of the public was like, "Um, I'm. pretty sure we have we know who did.

this. Why don't you start looking at. them?" And eventually the the public. pressure about it couldn't couldn't just. be ignored. So, the cops finally started. looking at Mrs. Hall and they brought. her in for questioning once. Apparently, it was very gentle line of questioning. They were very differential. Um, very. naturally, people also started looking. at James Mills. He was the other jilted. lover in this uh in this case. He had a. pretty good alibi. Apparently, either. one of his hobbies or his side gig was. woodworking. He was seen around the time.

of the murders at home and then for the. next couple hours during the time when. these uh this pair was definitely. murdered. So, he his he he had a pretty. good alibi, multiple neighbors saying, "Yeah, he was he was at home woodworking. at the time.". >> Yeah. And that's in the uh in the TV. show when they're at the end when. they're recounting how it was done. This. is when you see the shot of like the. buzz saw going in an empty room, >> right? It's like a mannequin rigged to. >> like pushing it so it actually sounds. like it's cutting. >> That's right. That's like the 1922.

version of somebody pre-recording the. security camera footage so that you. can't see what they're doing when they. commit the crime. >> That's right. The data is somehow. scrambled. >> Yeah. But I I'll tell you what, even. that couldn't fool Jessica Fletcher. There's at least one episode where that. was used. >> It was that again. >> on Murder She Wrote. >> Oh, that's right. >> Oh, you want to hear something awful? >> Sure. >> So, I was watching Murder She Wrote on. Overtheair Antenna. It's to be expected. There's a lot of ads and they're usually.

pretty crummy ads. But remember, I was. complaining about that stupid Burger. King ad. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. >> Well, I I finally moved away from the. overtheair antenna viewing and just. started watching. I think on Amazon. >> Yeah. I love that you you joined the uh. 21st century. >> Exactly. Um but the uh the for a while I. was like great. I left the Burger King. ad behind. Nope. It very recently popped. up again on Amazon. >> I haven't heard it in a while. >> I'm not going to I'm not going to. recount it for you.

>> Well, I'll tell you what I'm not doing. is watching Murder She Wrote if that's. the the trigger. >> Yeah, it's pretty bad. But that's how. much I like Murder She Wrote. I'm. willing to suck it up, you know? Jessica. Fletcher solving crimes. >> Stop, dude. That's pretty catchy. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, all right. So, where. were we? Um, >> they started looking at Mrs. Hall. She. didn't have an alibi, it turns out. >> That's right. So, they brought her in, like you said, for some pretty gentle. questioning. Uh, she said that on Friday. morning, uh, she was worried because her.

husband wasn't home. So she got together. with her brother Willie and they started. looking for him. Uh they visited the. church at first to look for him and then. later they went to uh her house. Well, not her house but the the victim's. house. They went to the mill's house. Nobody was there either and they said uh. yeah, initially they said we went there. because you know we thought he might. have been visiting with someone who was. ill. And then later on that story. changed to oh no, we went by there.

because we knew that the um church keys. were there as well. So her story is. already changing out of the gate. >> Yeah. And I mean if an entire. prosecutor's offices office times two. two different counties prosecutors and. police departments are being. differential to you and not. investigating you because you're. wealthy. >> At least have the decency to keep your. story straight to not make them look. that ridiculous. Right. >> Yeah. Agreed. The upshot is this. Mrs. um Hall's alibi is her brother Willie.

who lived with uh Mrs. Hall and Reverend. Hall. Um and he was a suspect, too. So, if your alibi is another suspect, that's. not a very good alibi. And they were. also they were also prowling around. about 2:30 a.m. And no one could. corroborate that they were out looking. for um Reverend Hall at 2:30 a.m. about. the time the murders took place. Exactly. So, uh, again, she was in still. insistent that they had a great.

marriage. These love letters are fake. The cops start sniffing, uh, her other. brother off the case, uh, who doesn't. live with them. This guy's name was. Henry. >> Mhm. >> And he was like, "Ah, no, no. I got an. alibi. I was fishing in Lavallet. It's. about 50 mi away. There's no way I could. have been there." And you know what? I. was even fishing with the mayor of. Lavallet. And the mayor stepped forward. and said, "Uh, correct." So he. >> he was holding a briefcase with money. coming out of the the seams. >> So he has an alibi like a stated alibi.

I'm not sure if that's the legal term, but I I didn't see that there was any. other other like proof that he was out. fishing, but he said I was fishing and. there was a witness with me. Um there. were a few witnesses and it seems like. the key witness to this all is the woman. who actually witnessed the murder as it. turns out. >> Yeah. a woman named Jane Gibson who had. come to be known as the pig woman. That's just what the press called her. across the board because she was a pig. farmer in the area of um the road where.

the bodies were found. >> Yeah. >> Um and she had caused to be awake at. 2:30 a.m. Apparently um there had been. some thefts of her crops, probably cops. who' come and tried to snatch her crops. And so she was awake, waiting. essentially for the the thieves to come. back. And she said that while she was. lying in wait, she heard a sound. She. went to uh investigate and that she saw. Mrs. Hall, her two brothers, and Mrs. Hall's cousin Henry, another Henry, um.

carrying out these murders. >> Yeah. Like she said, I saw this happen. Uh but the prosecutors are like, nah, her story keeps kind of changing, too. and they all have alibis, uh, stated. alibis. So, a grand jury convenes in. November of that year, like what should. we do here about indicting this family? And I say we tackle that question or. answer rather right after another break. Eh, >> hey.

[Music]. My. [Applause]. [Music]. my. [Music]. satisfaction. [Music].

So, Chuck, where we left off, you had. said that a grand jury had been. convened, right? >> That's right. >> And it turned out that the grand jury, I. think they took 5 days before they said, "No, we're not going to hand out any. indictments." So, it seemed that the um. the the probably the likeliest suspects, Francis Hall, her two brothers, and her. cousin um were now off the hook. And I.

we should say also one of the things. about her brother that's going to come. into play, one of her brothers, Willie, he lived at home, like we said, with the. Reverend Hall and Mrs. Hall. And the. reason why uh it seems uh is because he. was at least understood at the time, is. kind of slow, as they would put it. Um. sometimes you see in modern retellings. of it that he's considered. developmentally disabled. That does not. seem to be the case. It seems like he. probably was neurodeiverse in some way, shape or form, but uh he was also quite.

sharp too. He was known to read books on. like metallurgy. He was quite sociable. Uh he would be high functioning you. would you would say today. Um but at the. time he seemed to be if this was a group. of murderers, his family murderers, he. would be targeted as like the weak link. that you would go after. But regardless, it didn't matter because 1922 went out. with these four led off the hook because. the grand jury didn't indict. How about. that? >> That's right. Uh, and right after that.

happened, uh, the good Mrs. Hall left. for Italy. So, nothing at all suspicious. about that. >> I think you. >> about getting on a plane to Europe. >> I think you can make a case either way. that, you know, she just wanted to get. away from the whole thing, too. >> I said plane. Would that have been a. just a an ocean liner at the time? >> Mhm. >> Okay. >> Way to go, man. >> So, save your emails, everybody. >> I'm speaking in the modern parlance. Uh, so in December, um, they said basically,

you know, now that all the um all the. gawkers are out of here and all the. attention's dying down, we can get down. to some real investigating and figure. out who did this. Uh, a year later, the. New York Times followed up on the. anniversary. We're like, "Yeah, so you. got down to business. What'd you find. out?" and they're like, "Uh, what?". >> No progress whatsoever. Right. Yeah. >> So, that's how it went. um for four more. years and then out of nowhere in a. completely unrelated divorce case, the. husband of a woman named Louise Gist,

who had been a maid at the Hall's home. during the time of the murders, in the. in the divorce proceedings, he was. assassinating his um his ex-wife or soon. to be ex-wife's character, saying that. she had been involved in the Hallm Mills. murder and had been paid 5,000. smackaroos to be to keep quiet by Mrs. Hall and her brothers. >> and that she knew all about it. And. somehow, I guess that got out to the. press and William Randph Hurst Daily.

Mirror assigned a reporter to look back. into the case and it just blew it right. back onto the front pages of papers. across the country. >> Yeah. Such that the state of New Jersey. could no longer just keep ignoring this. So, uh, Governor A. Harry Moore said, "Oh, God. All right, let's reopen this. case. Uh grand jury. >> Yeah, exactly. Uh at this point, the. grand jury does come back and indict uh. Francis Hall, her brothers Willie and.

Henry, and her cousin Henry. >> Uh they were all four arrested. Um Mrs. Hall, for her part, was released on. bail. 15 grand. A lot of dough at the. time. >> Yeah, >> that's still a lot of dough. I always. say that. >> Uh the the men were held without bail. And at this point, this is 4 years. later, they don't take care of evidence. like they do now. Um, a lot of the. evidence was gone, but they did find. some new clues. Um, there was another. adulterous couple in the church. There. were probably dozens of them cuz that's. just how that that kind of thing goes.

>> But this one other adulterous uh couple, there was a guy named Ralph Gorsine and. a woman named Katherine Rostell. And. they were on Lover's Lane that night. Uh, a private detective came forward and. said, "Hey, Ralph admitted that he heard. these shots and saw I think cousin Henry. or was this brother Henry?". >> That was brother Henry. >> Okay, brother Henry, >> who apparently swore him to secrecy. Uh. Ralph Corsine later came out and denied. having accused Brother Henry, but he did.

uh confirm that he and his his mistress. Katherine Rastell had heard these four. gunshots, heard some low voices, and a. woman screaming. And the reason that I. didn't come out before was cuz obviously. I didn't want to like have my affair. busted. Uh but in 1926, 4 years later, um she had talked, his mistress had. talked, so he was like, "Well, I guess. the cat's out of the bag, so I'm going. to say what happened, too." Uh and his. wife said, "Great, let's get a divorce.". >> Yeah. And again, he had gone to this.

private detective in 1922 because his. conscience had gotten to him. But I. think he was basically saying he was. saying all the stuff that he eventually. said in 1926 um to get the detective to. go to the cops and say, "Hey, this. anonymous source did this." But it. didn't pan out like that. Um, but 1926, they were just uncovering stuff left and. right. Remember I said that they exumed. um, Mrs. Mills and um, did another. autopsy and that's when they found that. her tongue and vocal cords have been cut. out. Um, so like this was a serious. investigation that was launched again in.

1926, probably a lot more serious than. the one that was carried out in 1922. And another um another clue that turned. up or another source that turned up was. a guy named Paul Hambborski. He was a um a minister also in New. Brunswick and he was friendly with uh. Reverend Hall. And Paul Hamborski came. forward and said um hey I uh I actually. had a conversation with Reverend Hall. basically a month before he was.

murdered. And in it, he said that my. wife has gotten really cool lately and. has turned into a different woman. And. quote, "I am very much afraid that she. will do me bodily harm." And he. explained it was because of this affair. and that he had no intention of giving. up Eleanor Mills and that they would. probably run off together pretty soon. This was a month before Edward Hall was. murdered that a minister came forward. and said, "This is what he said to me.". >> Yeah. And he also said that uh her. brother Henry threatened me because.

everyone knew about this affair. >> And so he comes out with this very, you. know, sort of key evidence. And right. before the 90 uh 1926 trial started, um. this Paul Hamborski guy just sort of. disappeared. He left town. He didn't. disappear like disappear disappear, but. he left town pretty quickly. And there. was a state senator named Alexander. Simpson who was uh acting as special. prosecutor for the case. and he said. this Hamborski guy's uh loans uh dried. up at the bank and the banker said.

you've been a fool to get mixed up in. this Hall's Mill case. >> The banker was Charles Bronson. >> No, that would have been you've been the. fool to get mixed up in this Hall's Mill. case. >> Very nice. I just said that because I. really wanted to hear you redo it as. Charles Bronson. >> It's just all dirty dealing basically. Like it's really clear. >> Yeah. I mean, this family was more than. wealthy and powerful enough to ruin a. person, make sure that they didn't have. any line of income or just just make. life miserable for them to where they.

did want to just get out of town before. they could testify. So, um, this this this trial happens. like they finally have enough evidence. that a grand jury, this time pretty. quickly, handed off indictments. And so, Francis and her two brothers and cousin. are indicted for murder. Um, and right. when the word got out that they were. about to be tried again, all the. journalists came back, I saw an estimate. that they filed 12 million plus words.

cumulatively. It wasn't just one guy. during the 23-day trial. That's how many. words were written on this. It was. everywhere. >> Yeah. I mean, just just hundreds and. hundreds of people all of a sudden in. town. And uh the public of course is. like, "Hey, you know what? What we care. the most about is like reading these. love letters. >> like Josh Clark will one day say that's. the key piece of evidence. >> and like what was in these things and in. one of them and this is great who who.

helped us Livia with this. >> Yeah. She dug up some of these letters. Uh darling Wonderheart I just want to. crush you for two hours. I want to see. you Friday night alone by our road where. we can let out unrestrained that. universe of joy and happiness we call. ours. and he signed it DTL uh for Dinat. Troyer Leehaba which is German for thy. true lover and Mills called him. babykins. So. this is my only joke about this is I I.

want to see the sitcom uh Wonderheart. and Babykins like very soon on my. television. >> Um do me a favor. Will you read that. quote as Charles Bronson? >> Really? >> Sure. Darling Wonderheart, I just want to. crush you for two hours. I want to see. you Friday night alone by a road where. we can let out unrestrained that the. universe of joy and happiness that we. call ours. >> Beautiful Chuck. Bravo. If it.

>> a little more sinister somehow. >> If it wouldn't make the the um levels go. into the red, I would clap loudly for. you right now. >> So um yes, this is the kind of. humiliation that Francis um Hall is. enduring. She's sitting in court because. again she's on trial. People are reading. that was just one. They were reading a. bunch of different love letters in open. court. >> And there were more um witnesses that. came forward. There were like they were. poking holes in people's alibis from the. year back. So they brought in new. witnesses to undermine the truthfulness.

of their original witnesses and so so on. and so forth. >> And uh the the maid um Louise Gist, she. was brought to the stand and she said, "No, my ex-husband's a big fat liar.". But. >> right, >> I'll tell you what. Um Willie, who lived. with the the halls and whose um servant. I was as well, um he told me the day. after the murder, but the day before the. bodies were discovered that something. terrible happened last night. So Willie. shouldn't have known anything about. something terrible happening last night.

Um, unless it was that his sister had. lost at Solitaire, which was the one. alibi that Louise Gist could give uh, Francis Hall for that night. Solitaire. was her alibi. >> So, was this Louise Gist was involved. and probably got paid off and she was. trying to just pin it on on Willie, this. possibly neurode divergent, you know, younger brother. >> That certainly seems the case to me. Yes. I mean, that's how I took it. That's pretty That's pretty scratch that. her ex-husband comes up with in divorce.

court, you know. >> Yeah. >> So, again though, the star witness was. Jane Gibson, the pig woman, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. She, and this was super. dramatic, uh, she came forward. She was. in late stages of cancer, and they. brought her in on a stretcher into. court. >> She's speaking in a whisper basically, like just hanging in there to get this. testimony out. So, her story was after. 9:00 uh on that day, her dog started. barking again. She was worried about. thieves stealing her crop. So, she gets. on her mule, Jenny, rides out to the.

field, sees people fighting under that. crab apple tree, hears a woman yell, "Don't, don't, don't, Henry." She hears. a shot, a gunshot. Uh, saw uh one of the. men fall. Uh, she flees. She gets the. heck out of there, of course. And then. on her way out of there like running, she hears a woman screaming again. Three. more gunshots and they were like, "Can. you point out, are those people in the. courtroom today?" Basically, and she.

said, "Yes." And she pointed at Mrs. Hall, her two brothers, and her cousin. And they said, "Oh, well, you know what? She's the big lady. Like, don't believe. what she says, basically." Well, supposedly her own mother, Jane Gibson's. own mother, was in the in the courtroom. apparently ringing her handkerchief, watching her daughter give testimony, saying, "She's lying. She's lying." So, she people didn't put much stock into. Jane Gibson's um testimony. >> Maybe she said she's dying. May. >> maybe So, this is the this is.

essentially the prosecution's case. They. presented Jane Gibson again. She. basically said, "I saw those four murder. these two people, at least in. silhouette, and then I saw the four. clearly. Then it was time for the. accused to start taking the stand." And. uh apparently Mrs. Hall was so composed. on during her time on the stand giving. testimony that the papers dubbed her the. iron widow. >> Yeah. >> And she still said, "I never suspected. my husband of infidelity. Um and I was.

really nervous when he disappeared.". That's why my brother and I went out. that very night to look for him. Um, and. again, she's in part probably saving. face, but now at this point, she's. trying to not give anyone a motive that. she might have had for killing him, which would clearly be in such a. passionate murder. Um, something like. infidelity, right? >> Yeah, for sure. >> But despite her, I think everybody kind. of expected her to be good on the stand. And remember I said that they had kind. of supposed that Willie was going to be.

the wink weak link. The prosecutors were. just chomping at the bit to get to him. They were just going to work him over on. the stand. And apparently Willie held. his own like nobody's business and did. so well on the stand that essentially he. got himself and his uh siblings and. cousin off. That's how well he did on. the stand. He was the one who basically. got him acquitted. >> Yeah. So there it is. They got acquitted. uh on December 3rd, 1926. Uh after that,

uh the defendants minus brother Henry. sued the mirror for liel. Uh it was. settled out of court and we don't know. how much money was exchanged hands, if. any. Seems like there probably was some. >> And it was never brought to trial again. It never came before a criminal court. again. Um Mrs. Hall went, you know, back. to doing her thing. She's doing charity. work at the church. Uh did not, you. know, aside from that, didn't really. socialize a lot. um died in 1942. And you know, we we look back now as.

like it seems fairly obvious to us what. happened, even though um famous civil. rights attorney William Cutler wrote a. book in 1964 called The Minister and the. Choir Singer where he um supposes that. it was the KKK, but it there doesn't. seem to be a lot of evidence about that. at all. >> No. He even says this is all. circumstantial. And apparently there's. no account of anyone actually being. murdered when they were punished by the. KKK for something like having an affair. So it's pretty pretty. >> spankings. >> Yes. Um so what about The Great Gatsby,

Chuck? We all know that um you read that. that article as well as I did and people. >> people wonder if this was um you know. one of the stories that inspired The. Great Gatsby. It was uh in 1922. I think. um Gatsby came out in 25 so before the. actual trial but uh Fcott Fitzgerald and. Zelda um we we do know that they. followed that case. They were pretty. interested in it and there's a lot of. differences. So I mean I think it may. have just been one of those sort of.

launching off points where Yeah. >> he was like, "Oh, this is a cool idea.". And then just, you know, really just. went with it in a fictional sense. >> Yeah. Well, People magazine pointed out. something that I thought was a good. connection between the two. In the. story, the working-class woman who's. having an affair with, I can't remember. his name, um, Gatsby's rival, uh, her. death is essentially like ignored. because she's not, um, upper class. She's working class. The same thing. happened to Eleanor Mills. Like, her. death does not, aside from the grizzly.

state of her body, people did not pay. much attention to that. It was all about. this this wealthy woman and her wealthy. husband. Um, and in the end, the wealthy. people got to go on with their lives. while the dead working-class victim is. just largely forgotten. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Well, that's it for the Hall Mills. murder, Chuck. Good pick. However, we. got it. Also, just want to shout out the. Yale Review, Howard Harold Shear's. article, Mr. Local History Project, Mary. S. Hartman wrote a paper, and then also.

our own Livia who helped us with this, too. And since I just rattled off some. sources, as everyone knows, I just. triggered listener mail. >> Uh, this is about smoking. We did one on. the the cigarette and this is from Sue. in Melbourne, Australia. Hey guys, I. really just like smoking. Uh, here in. Melbourne, Australia, a pack of 20. cigarettes, and that is individual. cigarettes, not 20 packs. Like a pack of. cigarettes. >> Yeah, 20 Lucy's. >> cost $ 58.99.

>> I know. Oh, I saw that and it's just I'm. still astounded by it. >> Uh, a pack of 25 cost $62.99 and a. carton of 10 packs is $469. If a smoker smokes a pack of 20 per day, the cost per week is $371 per week or. perom close to 20 grand. Add a cop a cup. of coffee from a shop Monday to Friday. at five or day perom, 1300 bucks. Uh, Victoria has the most expensive. cigarettes in the world, guys. Yet there.

is always a crowd of puffing smokers. outside every building. Yes. >> Instead of sucking filth into the lungs, a person saves the money. An overseas. holiday every year would be possible. Uh. yes, I was a bookkeeper. Love the show. That is from Sue. Yeah. And you might be. out there saying, "Well, the Australian. dollar is less than the US dollar." I. just calculated it. A $469 carton of. cigarettes in Australia is still a $300. carton of cigarettes in the US. So. that's amazing. Yeah, that's a lot of. dough to uh actively die earlier.

>> Yeah, thanks a lot. Who was that again? >> Sue. >> Thanks a lot, Sue. And if you want to be. like Sue, you can send us an email. Send. it off to stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com. [Music]. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iMheart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].