The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck. And this is. Stuff You Should Know about one of the. more shameful chapters in US history and. indeed medical history, I think you. could say, too. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, and by the way, if. you hear weird noises, my immediate.

neighborhood is sort of crazy right now. >> What's going on? >> Well, I've got construction next door. I've got uh a lawn crew across the. street. And they're also shooting a. movie across the street. So, it's it's. just pandemonium is happening outside. these sort of quiet doors. >> You know what I would call that? Shameful. >> Not like this. No. >> Episode for sure. >> That was my attempt at a segue. >> Yeah. Nice work. Thank. >> I don't know about that, but thanks. >> Uh, by the way, this one is a listener. recommendation and a teenage listener.

This came from Miles Kendrick, a. 14-year-old. >> Nice, Miles. Great idea. >> Yeah, thanks for that. >> Um, yeah, we're talking about uh what's. called the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. or Tuskegee Syphilis Study. Um, and the. actual official name for it was the. Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in. the Negro Male. Yeah, that spells it all. out, doesn't it? >> It does. The fact that there's an. official title for this just really kind. of goes to show you just how nefarious.

the whole thing was. And it was indeed a. nefarious experiment, no matter um it. doesn't really matter how you slice it. You can look at it any any number of. ways and it always still washes out. stinky. >> Yeah, it does. And this was an. experiment. Um, I mean, well, I guess. we'll go ahead and say what happened. generally, uh, is that they recruited. um, black men uh, in Mon County, Alabama. that had syphilis. Kind of one of the. misconceptions is that they were uh,

given syphilis as part of this. Not. true, but don't worry, we did that in. Guatemala, as we'll see later on. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and signed them up for this study. where they would not treat these men of. syphilis just to see how it progressed, basically. Um because they had this. notion and you know of course this. doesn't excuse anything but one of the. supposed reasons but that they had this. notion that uh syphilis would was. different in white men than black men. and that in black men it was more. cardiovascular based as far as the the.

symptoms and the results. And then in. white men it was more neurological. >> And it was initially supposed to be a. 6-mon thing, but it went on not for 4. years, not for 14 years, but for 40. years. >> Yeah. I mean, it started out in 1932 in. the Jim Crow South and it carried right. through the entire civil rights era. A. number of other historical things. happened during this time that should. have given the researchers pause. But.

from what I saw, the best explanation is. not that these people were inherently. evil. Although you can make a case that. at least one of the people who led the. study at one point was, we'll talk about. him later in Guatemala. Um, but more. that they just came to see these these. men, these individuals, these human. beings as nothing more than a data set. and that they they stripped them of. their humanity so thoroughly that they. they they didn't even really think that. this was there was anything wrong with. what they were doing even over the.

course of 40 whole years. >> Yeah. And the reason why they chose uh. Mon County is a few reasons. One, it's. proximity to Tuskegee, which was, you. know, key is the place where they. carried this stuff out. Mhm. >> Uh, another is because they um they. zoned in on that area because they. initially were trying to find out how. many people had syphilis and where so. they could treat these men, right? >> And they found that Mon County, Alabama. had the highest prevalence of syphilis. Uh, and also, and this this um last part.

comes from the files that were released. and collected I think in the last decade. even. >> Uh, they were sharecroers. They were. rural men and they were poor men. And. the quote that was in these papers that. I found was that they found them. immobile and malleable. >> Yeah, they were an extremely vulnerable. population. I mean, even among um the. black population at large in the Jim. Crow era, these were like the most. vulnerable people and they had less. rights than even other black people at.

the time in America. So, yeah, they. picked on them very specifically. Um, and that you kind of hinted at something. that I find is one of the most cynical. aspects of this whole thing that the. initially the program that was working. down there was a well-funded program. that was treating syphilis and then the. funding ran out of that and they said, "Well, we still have all these people. that we know have syphilis. Let's try. something different and not treat them.". And that was the beginning of the whole. thing.

>> Yeah. And it's also key to point out. before we get into the the grizzly. details is that these men did not know. they had syphilis. Uh and then they also. thought that they were being treated. They were they were told they had quote. bad blood. >> and the whole time they thought they. were getting treatment when they were. getting placeos. >> Right. Uh yeah. And then there were I. read a couple of men who suspected or. knew they had syphilis and wanted to go. get it treated and the people running. the this study prevented them from.

getting it treated either by telling. them not to go do that or by telling. doctors in the area do not treat any of. these men because they're part of this. study we're carrying out. Because that's. another thing too. I think a lot of. people think that this was some secret. government study conducted in absolute. silence. It was not at all. It wasn't. even an open secret. It wasn't a secret. at all. So much so that the people. running the study published 13 different. journal articles over the course of that. 40 years and put out annual reports,

published annual reports on the progress. of this this thing. So it was just right. out there and people just overlooked it. or ignored it for four decades. Yeah, it. was it was a time when, you know, the. medical community certainly was aware, but the public at large and the media. didn't really look into, you know, medical papers and stuff like they do. these days. >> Yeah. >> Uh and we should point out that all of. this was done uh despite a 1927 statute. >> in the state of Alabama that requires.

treatment of syphilis. Like it was it. was a state law that they just brushed. aside basically. Uh and all of this done. uh for the promise of hot meals, uh. treatment and um burial insurance. basically. >> Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I mean I think. that's a pretty good setup. I think we. should kind of describe what these men. were suffering from. Yeah. In the first. place and talk a little bit about. syphilis. Let's do uh it was caused by a.

bacterium called uh it's spiral-shaped. and it's called the uh trepema paladum. bacterium and they don't know where it. came from but they know that it dates at. least all the way back to Naples in 1495. when mercenaries uh serving in the. French army got syphilis and then very. quickly spread it far and wide because. for eight years later it was in India. and China. >> That's pretty fast man. Yeah. >> One of the reasons it was so fast is.

because these were armies pillaging and. raping and um and syphilis is primarily. transmitted through sexual contact. It. can also be transmitted or transferred. from an infected woman to her fetus. >> Mhm. >> But for the most part, it comes from. unprotected sex. >> It's an STD. >> Yeah. And there's a the there's a. hypothesis that it came back with. Columbus and his men who were again. pillaging and raping and they had. contracted what is considered a new.

world disease syphilis and brought it. back to Europe and that's where it. spread. Apparently there's no actual. like hard evidence of this or hard proof. >> but um the timing I think is what people. zero in on. I mean, it first popped up. in 1495 and everyone knows thanks to. that um child prodigy whose name escapes. me right now, Stoner, I think her last. name is, Stoner Sackler, uh the Columbus. sailed the ocean blue in 1492. >> That's right. And if you got syphilis,

uh you were in for a pretty rough run, including possibly eventually death in a. lot of cases. If you were an infant, um. it could be certainly fatal. Uh it could. cause blindness and deafness. Uh it. could cause facial differences with. teeth in the nose. Um brain. complications of course. Uh if you were. an adult you would get uh lesions and. then within a few months it goes into. the second stage where you have lesions. basically all over your body. Rashes and. pains and headaches. And then finally.

the disease in the third phase um it it. dials back. it abates a little bit where. it's not transmissible, but in that. latency period, all of a sudden it can. attack your organs, specifically your. liver, and cause uh liver failure and. kill you. >> and blindness and neurological uh. impacts like dementia and paralysis. And. that's one of the things that makes it. so insidious is after the initial. infection symptoms, it just seems like. it went away and then out of nowhere, it. can just come back and kill you like.

you're saying, right? So this is what. these men specifically in this study. were dealing with. I think all of them. were in uh late latency syphilis where. they didn't necessarily have symptoms. any longer. And the idea that this was. an indefinite open study that was. essentially like this study will end. when all these guys are dead meant that. they were specifically by not treating. them waiting to see how they died. including from complications of syphilis. like you said um that included organ.

failure throughout the body. >> Yeah. And they ended up getting um 399. men that were infected and then 201. And part of the recruitment uh involved. a Tuskegee Institute nurse named Ununice. Rivers. >> Yeah. >> Who ended up being a very vilified. person because she was a black woman who. uh helped recruit these guys. Uh there. was advertisements by word of mouth and. churches and stuff like that. and she.

was co-authored on two of the 13 papers. and you know of course was vilified for. this uh for you know doing this to to. men from her own race. But uh it seems. like she knew what was going on but she. really believed what she was being told. by the public health service that black. men it progressed differently in them. than in white men and that's sort of the. basis of what they were trying to root. out. I saw that she also reasoned it. that at least these sharecroers were.

getting treatment that they otherwise. couldn't have afforded. But. >> which was no no treatment. >> Exactly. Uh and hot meals too. Like that. was I mean this was it started during. the depression. Hot meals was such an. incentive that people would submit to. medical experiments for them. So that. was a like it's easy now to look to. overlook how important that was, but. that was a big a big deal sweetener for. them. Yeah. And penicellin was something that. they had been, you know, they had been. searching for something like penicellin.

for a long time, especially in Germany. They were looking for uh they called it. a magic bullet that would, you know, kill the microorganism, kill the. bacteria without harming the cells that. it was infecting. And from 1910 on, they. had some stuff that kind of worked. Uh. something called uh Oh boy, here we go. Uh ars phenamine. Yeah. Do you want. >> that's what I was going to go with. Nice. work. >> But in 1940, a Scottish physician named. Alexander Fleming came along and um had.

had proven basically in 1928 that. penicellin uh worked. And in 1940 was. when it was finally published in the. Lancet is like, hey, this is sort of. this miracle magic bullet we were. looking for. And you know, 1940 is kind. of squarely in the middle of this study. Yet they didn't use penicellin still to. heal these guys. >> No, I mean like the fact that that a. treatment because before that treatment. was really bad for you. They would like.

people have been using mercury to treat. it since about 1500 and then that um uh. arsenamine was a type of arsenic I think. you said. So it like it might not have. worked. It took a year. It was very. expensive and it was not a pleasant. thing. When the penicellin came along, you could get one injection of. highdosese penicellin and it could cure. syphilis in eight days. It could even. cure late stage latency uh syphilis that. was already attacking your organs. It. could at least cure the syphilis. It.

wouldn't reverse the organ damage. So. the fact that they knew that this. existed, I read the public health. service was instrumental in developing. penicellin as a treatment for syphilis. So, it's not like the public health. service hadn't heard that that. penicellin worked. Um, that is one of. the more damning points. Like they they. there's no defense that they could offer. that would justify withholding. penicellin since they knew it it worked. And the the study went on for what 31.

more years after that? >> Yeah. I mean, I don't think anyone ever. contended that that it was on the table. like, "Hey, we have a cure now. It's. going to stop because they that's not. what they were after to begin with." No. And in fact, there were quotes from. people later on who were involved and. tried to defend it that was basically. like, yeah, we had to we had to actively. make sure that these guys didn't get. penicellin from other doctors who didn't. know about the study for things like. colds or whatever because they would. accidentally cure the syphilis. Like.

they that's that's the links that they. went to. Like the penicellin was an. enemy to this study essentially is how. they thought of it. Well, one more link. that they went to before we take a break. was when World War II rolls around, uh. they they purposefully made sure that. these um study subjects, these men were. exempted from the draft because when you. go through the draft process, you get. tested for STDs and treated for STDs. And so they're like, "No, no, no. That. that'll ruin our study. We got to make.

sure these guys don't get drafted." So. the the takeaway from that is is these. men probably would have been better off. like being drafted and potentially even. like storming the beach at Normandy than. being at home in Alabama being quote. unquote treated by doctors. >> That's a good point. And the the way. that they did it too kind of shows just. how complicit a lot of people in the. area were. It's not like the public. health service didn't pull some strings. to make this happen. They went to the. director of public health for Mon County.

um and said, "Hey, you're friends with. the guy running the selective service. board. Why don't you, you know, make. sure that this this works?" And he did. He pulled the right strings and and he. made it happen. But so this was a there. were a lot of people who came together. to make this happen and to prevent these. men from getting their syphilis treated. one way or another. All right, let's. take that break and we'll be right back. right after this. [Music].

Okay, we're back, Chuck. And um we. should probably talk about how this. study began.

>> Uh yeah, it was it was uh launched by. the director of PHS's uh venerial. disease division, uh someone named Talia. Pharaoh Clark, and it was a two-arm. study. uh again um a control group and a. and a infected group and um I believe. Clark did not suggest giving placeos. even though that happened um but he also. didn't say hey you know we're trying to. study the difference between how it. progresses in black men and white men. let's bring in some white men they.

strictly focused on black men. >> yeah there was actually a reason for. that um there was a study that was very. similar that was conducted in Oslo. Norway from 1891 to 1910 10 and the. results were published in 1929 that did. the same thing but to all white men. So. essentially they used that data from the. Oslo study as a a comparison or they. plan to I guess. >> Uh yeah, sure. >> Right. So you know it's all good.

Uh Tuskegee itself was chosen again I. mentioned because of um its proximity to. where they were you know uh drawing from. for Mon County but um also because of. the government links with the Tuskegee. Institute. Uh Booker T. Washington had. come along and um really shaped a a. critical educational institution in the. United States. >> Yeah. >> Uh they were serving needy black people. of Alabama. And it's, you know, that's. another one of the just big shames is. that it it put such a black eye on what.

this, you know, kind of great. institution. >> Yeah. I mean, this is the hospital where. people would go, this is, I think, where. um nurse Unice Rivers worked, too. So, it was a huge betrayal of that. community. And I mean, even though it's. developed by leaps and leaps and bounds. and is now Tuskegee University, like you. said, it was a black eye. But even worse. than that, everybody calls this, including us, the Tuskegee experiment. They don't call it the public health. service syphilis experiment or the US. government syphilis experiment. So, it's.

an ongoing black eye on Tuskegee. University, too. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, they were deceived. from the beginning, you know, like we. said, it bears repeating that they. thought they were signing up for. treatment. Uh, in fact, they called it a. a quote special free treatment end. quote. And uh you know so these guys. lined up for it. You know they were they. thought they had bad blood and they got. placeos in the name of uh aspirin mainly. like 5,000 pink aspirin tablets were.

shipped in 1934. >> Uh also these these tonics that. tinctures they would mix up. >> um that you know they they said was. going to get their bad blood treated. >> Yes. So um you said that Telophario. Clark or Talifero Clark and conceived of. this whole study. I think he stepped. aside pretty early on and starting in. 1933 the next year a guy named uh. Raymond Vanderler picked up and took. over and actually expanded it and now.

said okay we're looking for neurological. effects. Let's start giving these guys. spinal taps that are really really. dangerous, can be really painful, and. can give you um horrible headaches. afterward, too. So, let's just throw. that in for for, you know, just for. kicks. >> Yeah. And also in those papers that were. released and collected recently, uh that. same person, uh there was a letter where. he was talking about all the complaints. from Oh, yeah. I saw that the patients. getting spinal taps and how awful it.

was. And he was like. I'm paraphrasing, but basically like now. I'm the one with the headache. >> Yeah. Yeah, he said that. So, uh, yes, this is kind of like the. the patronizing at the very least. patronizing tone that that these the. people running this experiment had. toward everybody. >> Yeah. >> So, we said also that penicellin came. around uh in the late 1940s or 1940s at. some point. And that was one thing that. it was like, okay, you guys should have. stopped everything and given these guys.

penicellin. Another thing happened in. the 1940s that essentially should have. put an end to this. And that was the. Nermberg trials after World War II where. among other people a bunch of Nazi. doctors, I think 23 Nazi doctors were. put on trial for war crimes for running. um horrible, horrific medical. experiments on um people during World. War II. And I think seven of them were. sentenced to death. And yet despite. that, the people running this syphilis.

study were just like, gosh, that I mean, Nazis suck. Good thing we're not Nazis. We're just going to continue on with. this experiment. >> Yeah. uh in 1957. This was in the 25th. year. Uh the surgeon general awarded uh. certificates to these patients like you. know congratulations on all all your uh. work here in this and participating in. this study. And then later on in 1993. one of the researchers John Charles. Cutler and we're going to talk about him.

a bit later as well. Uh there was a. quote where he said it would be. undesirable to go ahead and use large. amounts of penicellin to treat the. disease because you'd interfere with the. study. So, you know, they were on record. like. time and time again through countless. different uh changes over these 40 years. at at Tuskegee, these doctors and. nurses, uh the people in the public. health system, like it wasn't just like. one like mad scientists running the show. all these years. It was just new people. kind of changing hands and leading this.

this charge like year after year for 40. years. >> Yeah. And one of the things that they. clung to both internally and externally. is this idea that became outdated when. penicellin came along, but they still. kept going with this uh this excuse. Um. was that treating late latency late. stage um syphilis could actually cause. more harm than good. You could get the. syphilis stirred up again and it that. could cause that organ failure. Um so. you're better off not treating it. And.

by the time penicellin came along, by. the time Nermberg came along, all of. these patients would have been in late. latency syphilis were they not already. So that that was the thing like that was. what they would push back on even though. it was not true anymore. I I like once. penicellin came along it was not. dangerous at all and it really really. worked and yet they still used that as. an excuse whenever it was challenged. It. was very rarely challenged but it was. challenged by some people as we'll see.

Yeah, there was uh the first person uh. brave enough to even say anything uh was. named Count Gibson. Um it was he was a. Richmond physician, heard about the. study through a a lecture in the 1950s. from Sydney Olansky and wrote a a letter. saying I'm gravely concerned about the. ethics of the entire program. Um he. continued to sort of observe the the uh. the study uh after penicellin came along. and he you know Olansky basically you.

know came back and said I think our work. is helping out these participants. overall and and just keep quiet about. it. >> Yeah. Just all of the thinnest excuses. that that was what they would defend. themselves with. I guess um Count Gibson. did end up keeping quiet because the. medical college that he worked at in. Virginia essentially said, "You need to. be quiet or else, I would guess, lose. your job." So that was in the 50s, right? >> Uh yeah. >> Next up was a guy named Bill Jenkins who. was one of the CDC's first.

African-American professional workers. He was a statistician. uh his his widow. also called him a um essentially a a. radical that was very uh involved in the. civil rights movement from a very early. time and he learned about this and the. bald-faced racism that was just inherent. in it really obviously stuck in his. craw. Um and he tried very hard to get. the New York Times and the Washington. Post to cover it and they didn't. Uh he. later said we probably should have.

created a press release and done it. differently. they just sent all this. stuff to the New York Times in WPO. It's. not clear whether they would have. published anything on it anyway, but he. gave it a try and he eventually was. like, I can't I can't do anything else. Um I think he also tried internally too. to get it to stop and it just didn't. happen. >> Yeah. So that was 60. In ' 64 there was. a Detroit cardiologist named Irwin J. Shatz and he was like, I can't believe. what's going on. Like I read this study.

because again, you know, they were. putting out these studies in the medical. community was reading them and and some. people were like, "Wait a minute, what. what is going on down there?" And he. said, "I suggest that you re-evaluate. your moral judgments on this." And there. was a co-author named Ann R. Yabs who. said it was uh a co-author of the of the. syphilis study. >> that said it was the first letter they. got like that and that she planned to. ignore it. >> Yeah. So yeah, they were also pretty. arrogant in this stuff, too. Well, they. eventually ran headto-head with a guy. named Peter Buckton who was working for.

the public health service. He was a. veneerial disease investigator in the. Tenderloin in San Francisco. I think he. was 28 in the late 60s or mid60s, sorry, 1965. And he um I guess heard a colleague. talking about this study and said which. a what? And he started looking into the. reports. He got the the public health. service people running this the venerial. disease division to send him all of. their reports and he read through them. and he could not believe what he was.

reading and he went directly to William. J. Brown who was the head of the. veneerial disease division at the time. Uh and he said like what are you doing? You stop this. This is a horribly. unethical study. I can't believe you. guys are doing this. And William J. Brown said no it's all good. Um these. guys are getting medical care that they. otherwise wouldn't. And by the way, did. we say it's dangerous for to treat. people with latestage syphilis? And I'm. sure Peter Buckton said, "No, it's not.". And William Brown said, "Yes, it is.".

And it just went like that for a while. >> Well, they also responded that, "Hey, this is political dynamite." And a 1969. review said it was a hot potato. So like. they knew, you know, it like full well. at this point that it was um morally and. ethically wrong and racist and that like. if this got out like this has started. when they kind of internally started. talking about hey if this got out this. would look really bad. Before this I. don't even think they even thought about. it. Uh but Buckston would end up being a. whistleblower. he would uh send his.

files to the AP and an AP reporter named. Gene Heler wrote an article that ended. up being published in the New York Times. and that was in 1972, 7 years after. Buckton first started looking into it. and that that's what finally blew it. wide open. >> Yeah. And I saw that despite being aware. that this could look bad for the public. health service, I think now the CDC, um. they were the people involved in the. study were really surprised and taken. aback by the public outrage that erupted.

immediately from this article. I mean. because it was AP that meant all of the. newspapers across the country carried. it. Um and a lot of them put it on their. front page. So everyone all of a sudden. knew about this horribly unethical. racist study and it came to. screeching halt. >> Boy, that sounds like a great time for a. break. >> Yes, >> you can't throw on the brakes without. taking a break. >> That's our motto. >> Yep. >> We'll be right back. [Music].

All right. So Josh threw on the brakes. Uh just like the um the doctors uh. performing the Tuskegee syphilis. experiments in 1972.

>> It was a big political scandal. Um. Senator Edward M. Kennedy of. Massachusetts called Congressional. Hearings. Buckston testified there, of. course, and in 1972, kind of late 1972, an ad hoc advisory panel said, uh, this. you got you got to stop this study. Uh, it's pretty clear. Uh, it's ethically. unjustified, was the quote, and it. results in quote disproportionately. meager compared with known risks to the. human subjects involved. >> Yeah. And I mean when they started to.

look into it, they were like, "This. study is not even particularly. scientific." And one of the big things I. saw was in an episode of a podcast. called Distillation by the um Science. History Museum. And they were basically. saying some of these guys did. accidentally get treated with. penicellin. Other guys in the control. group uh accidentally contracted. syphilis. And so they would just take. them and be like, "Okay, you're in the. control group now because you got you. got treated accidentally. you caught. syphilis accidentally, you're in this.

untreated group. They would just shuffle. people around. It was not a very. well-run study considering how much time. and effort was put into it. >> Yeah. I mean, they they never got any. like great data in return for this 40. years of, you know, I mean, torture. basically. You know, >> the data I saw that they did get was. possibly as many as 128 uh of these men. died from untreated syphilis. Yeah, like that's the bottom line here.

They would not have otherwise died. because penicellin is so effective. They. died specifically because they were. participants in this study. And that is. that there's no other way to put it. >> Yeah. I mean, if you remember um in 1997. uh I I remember when this happened, President Clinton invited at the time. there were eight living survivors of the. experiments uh to the White House to. offer, you know, the formal apology. Mhm. >> Uh and said it was like a a clearly.

racist, shameful thing that you endured. Uh and this was after um a legal. settlement uh settlement. There was a. $10 million legal settlement and benefit. program. Um se at the time I think um. when it ended uh 70 men who had not. received treatment uh were still alive. and the survivors got $35,000, their heirs got $15,000. from a class action lawsuit. And then. they started in 1973 the Tuskegee Health. Benefit program. Uh basically like hey.

we're going to provide medical care for. your survivors, for your families, for. widows, for your children. Basically. starting in 1975. >> Yeah. Because that's something that uh. is um forgotten a lot of times. These. men had families. They had wives. They. sometimes had wives that they were still. having babies with. So like their. spouses and their newborn children were. at tremendous uh risk of contracting. syphilis because they were in this. untreated program. So free health care.

for the life of them, their spouses and. their children seems like the like step. one, the most basic thing that you could. do, you know. >> Yeah. And you know the the effects of. this were devastating certainly to those. families and to the men who participated. and died and even the ones who didn't. uh but an ongoing effect has been felt. you know even today and since then. they've done studies and and found data. basically that that um all but proves.

that the Tuskegee experiments um had a. negative effect on African-Americans in. the United States not trusting doctors, not trusting nurses, not trusting the. medical establishment at all and not. seeking treatment and having negative. health effects because of this. and and. they've basically proven it because uh. it it's even more localized. Like the. closer you get to Mon County, the more. the data has proven that that people did. not trust doctors. >> Yeah. Uh and that's another moniker that.

I'm sure Tuskegee University is not. happy about. It's called the Tuskegee. effect. >> Yeah. One of the pieces of datim that I. saw um that really kind of caught my eye. was that um black men in America seeking. out professional medical help dropped by. 22%. in the the four years following when the. news of this story broke. So it had a. pronounced effect. >> And in 1997 1997 so this is 25 years.

after the study was finished. Uh there. was a study that found that 32.1%. of black women uh surveyed in a study. agreed that scientists were not. trustworthy compared to 4.1% of white. women at the time. >> Yeah. And there was another thing too. It was the Tuskegee effect is widely. blamed for um making uh containing the. AIDS epidemic in the 1980s and 90s in. the black community so difficult. And a.

2021 study found that 27.7%. of the people the black Americans. surveyed found that um they believed the. government created AIDS to essentially. carry out a genocide against black. Americans. >> Yeah, >> that's the level of distrust that came. from Tuskegee. But there's a historian. who knows all about this. her name Susan. Reverby and she was on that dis. distillation podcast episode and she. essentially said that's true but pinning.

all of this on the Tuskegee experiment. ignores all of the structural racism. >> that is still going on. >> Yeah. >> That that has that is like current and. is keeping the whole thing fresh in the. minds of black Americans because it. didn't just happen once and they lost. trust. It happens again and again and. again every day essentially to black. Americans when they seek health care in. the United States. >> Yeah. Tuskegee just kind of put a bow on. it, you know. >> Yeah. >> Uh so of course things changed in the.

medical community and you know sort of. ethics control after this. Um after. 1972, Congress and the National Institutes of. Health um changed rules of uh just you. know humans participating in in studies. and experiments. uh obviously requiring. informed consent for stuff like that. Uh. peer review of not the results but the. study's design like before you can even. go out and get into this uh and launch a.

study or or a experiment like this it. has to be peer-reviewed and okayed uh. and then in 1974 the national research. act was signed into law uh resulting in. kind of a a laundry list of regulations. and standards in the wake of Tuskegee. What's crazy is this is the 70s and it. took the news of this experiment for the. United States to officially adopt. informed consent for medical experiments. despite the Nuremberg code that. basically said if you're running a. medical experiment anywhere in the world.

your patients need to be fully informed. and give uh informed consent in 1947. So. I just found that awful that it took so. long for the US to formally adopt that. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think it it this. wasn't like the norm uh because doctors. uh you know most times had ethics when. doing experiments and informed consent. was a thing but yeah to to to codify it. like that and taking that long is just. you know outrageous. >> Uh it also um I guess created a. subsequent report in 1979 called the.

Belmont report that said there are three. things you need to do if you're carrying. out a medical experiment involving. humans. Uh you have to have respect for. the people involved. You have to show. beneficence which is essentially like. you need to go beyond the basic minimum. requirements of making sure these people. are protected and actually um exert some. sort of kindness even like go way beyond. that and then justice equality and. treatment equality and including. participants equality and um.

distributing the results of this stuff. and the fruits of these these studies. So um those things got adopted as well. but not until 1995 16 years after the. report. >> Yeah 95 was also when uh President. Clinton ordered uh you know sort of a. slew of presidential committees on. bioeththics and how things were done. So. yeah it a long long time after it ended. Um, we promised talk of Guatemala uh. because a very similar and and worse.

thing happened in Guatemala in 1946 47. and 48 when the United States government. funded medical research which did not uh. study untreated syphilis in Guatemalans. They deliberately exposed and infected. Guatemalan soldiers, prisoners, uh sex. workers, mental patients with syphilis. I feel like we talked about this before. seems. >> at some point, but it's uh it's horrific. how they went about this. >> Yeah. 83 of these patients died. Only.

700 of them received even some sort of. minimal treatment. And the guy that I. said you could argue is evil who was. involved in the Tuskegee experiment was. the guy who ran this, Dr. John Charles. Cutler. Uh he ran it from 1946 to 1948. This was not the first experiment like. this. He also had run stuff like this uh. on in prisons as a fresh-faced student. just out of graduate school. Um so he.

and he's also the one who in 1993. defended the the whole um Tuskegee. experiment by saying like, "Yeah, you. couldn't give penicellin. These people. had ruined the study.". >> Yeah. And uh he he gave people syphilis. by injecting it sometimes into their. eyes. Uh he would infect sex workers by. infecting cotton swabs and then. inserting them into their you know sex. organs and then sometimes ordering the. them to have sex with men uh to see how. it you know how it transferred how.

easily it transferred. >> Yep. >> So we said that structural racism still. exists in healthcare. And I've got one. last stat that kind of drives this home. There was a 2020 study of emergency. rooms in Oregon and they found that even. though black patients who went seeking. help to an emergency room uh had. completed pain scores um about at the. same rate as the black patients who went. to these same emergency rooms. The. doctors decided that um only 14% of.

these black patients deserve pain meds. compared to 20% of white patients. So, it's still going on today and we still. have a very long way to go. And I feel. like as long as we keep talking about. the Tuskegee experiment, um hopefully. it'll bring us a little bit closer, a. little bit closer because here in the. United States, we don't like to do. things the right way quickly. It takes. us a very long time sometimes. >> Yeah. And I and I, you know, I'm not. getting on a soap box, but it it's. important to tell these stories now.

because uh stories like this are. actively being scrubbed from places like. the Smithsonian. And um it's not, you. know, you you can't ignore your negative. history as a as a country and and learn. anything about your future as a country. >> For sure. We should put that on a. t-shirt, Chuck. >> That's a little little birdie. Well, Chuck just gave us a great new t-shirt. idea, everybody, whether he likes it or. not. So, that means it's time for. listener mail. >> Uh, you know what? Let's not do listener.

mail. We haven't done this in since I. feel like the early years. Uh, I feel. like we should put out a call to help. grow our show a little bit. Uh, we've. just kind of been on Coast forever as. far as like saying, "Hey, like tell your. friends about this, but um, let's do. this and you you tell me if you approve. and if not, we'll just erase all this.". Okay. >> But I charge uh every listener who loves. stuff you should know um tell find your. favorite episode ever, whether it's. ballpoint pins or the Muppets or the.

time the Nazis invaded Florida. >> DB Cooper, >> like DB Cooper, like whatever your. favorite Stuff You Should Know episode. is, and send it to three friends and. say, "Hey, check this show out. I think. you'll I think you'll like it." Uh and. that would that would help us out. We're. always looking to, you know, grow the. show and expand to to new audiences who. have never heard of us even after 17. years. So, it really helps us out and we. would really appreciate it. >> Very nice, Chuck. I think that was. great. I don't object to that at all. >> Fantastic. >> Uh, well, like Chuck said, go forth and.

spread the gospel of stuff you should. know. And in the meantime, if you want. to send us an email, you can send it off. to stuffodcast.com. [Music]. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts of. iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows. [Music].