The Tragedy of the Commons | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and it's just us. again Jerry who uh and this is stuff you. should know that's right uh another econ. Edition typically not my favorite but. you know this one I could wrap my head. around for the most part I think that's.

one of the reasons why it's had such an. enormous impact on the world because it. is so easy to wrap your head around um. we should probably say we're talking. about the tragedy of the. commons and for those of you who aren't. familiar it's this idea this concept. that if um you have a shared resource a. Commons say uh and people are able to. use it at their own um Leisure for their. own purposes eventually as they seek to.

maximize their profits they're going to. overuse this Commons and inevitably. it'll be ruined because people can't. have anything nice essentially you know. what's funny you're going to laugh at me. here all right uh they're all going to. laugh at you the central the central. area of my high school was called The. Commons yeah and it just occurred to me. 35 years or so after I graduated that. that's what that meant uh oh I see I.

thought you going to say like my teenage. years were the tragedy of the coms no I. just I don't know I never thought about. the word because it was when you're in. high school it's just sing the commment. we'll meet in the Commons but it never. occurred to me that that's what that. meant just like a common area shared by. everybody it didn't either to me I know. exactly what you're talking about there. was if it not high school then maybe. Middle School there was some school. where that was called that too and I. wonder if it was like a syruptitious. shot at kids like they're all sheep M.

because I don't think that's true but. one of the um major uses for Commons. traditionally has been for grazing. that's a really good example if you let. a bunch of people. graze on a shared resource but they're. taking what they can from that resource. to make money for themselves to support. themselves then just because humans are. rational selfish horrible. beings that Meadow or that high school. cafeteria will be ruined yeah that's.

right uh and the idea of the tragedy of. the commons started out in. 1968 in an article from science the. journal. science uh it was called the tragedy of. the commons and it was by a biologist. named Garrett Harden and he was sort of. piggybacking on a 19th century English. mathematician and Economist named. William Forster not Foster I would say P. piggybacking or um hijacking hijacking. uh William Forster Lloyd and you.

mentioned grazing and this is sort of. the the thought experiment Harden went. with which is like you have a you know a. grazing field and let's say three. Farmers have use of it and they're. letting their cows and sheep and you. know graze out there but at some point. one of them is going to get an extra fat. cow that they sell for pretty good money. and they're like hey well if that worked. out maybe I can add like an additional. cow and maybe it'll make you know the. value of all of these cows go down a.

little bit including my own because. they're not getting as fat because I've. added another cow here right but if I. can sell it for this much money and it's. only costing me a fraction of that for. you know the uh um what you extra cow. well I mean it would only cost a. fraction of loss uh of resources for the. other cows like I'm still coming out. ahead and so by it being bada boom. that's what I'm going to do right yeah. so if everybody was making $1 off of the. cows when everything was being grazed on.

sustainably then if you add one more cow. now everybody's making 85 cents off of. their cows because you're starting to. over tax the the commons but that person. who added that cow that's an extra 85. cents they wouldn't have had before. right yeah and if you're able to sell. that cow for like five bucks that 85. cents is a pittance compared to what. you're making on the other side right so. um there's always under the the the.

logic of the tragedy of the comments. there's always a reason to add another. cow and add another cow and add another. cow because your returns are always. going to be more than the cost that you. can offset with the returns right well. that and you're also on the assumption. that like everyone else is going to be. adding cows so I'm not going to be the. only sucker not adding cows right so. you're either a sucker or you're just. somebody who wants to survive because if. people start adding cows and you're the.

one farmer who's like I'm not going to. do that I find that morally repugnant uh. I really like sustainably grazing here. and I'll just take one for the team in. very short order that farmer would find. that they were no longer making money no. more team because exactly because each. additional. cow was taking an additional fraction so. let's say that every time you added a. cow it reduced the price that all the. other cows got by 15% mhm that's not a.

steady price because if you reduce a. Dollar by 15% now you're getting 85. cents for a cow yeah but now when you're. adding another cow that reduces that 85. Cents by 15% so all of a sudden you're. making 72 cents and then 61 cents and. then 52 cents right but again if you're. adding cows that's always extra almost. found money if you're not adding cows. then the cows that you had originally. are now getting less and less and less.

until you're making zero money so you. are forced into adding cows and that's. why it's considered the tragedy or why. Garrett Harden called it the tragedy of. the commons because inevitably under. these circumstances which are have long. been considered to be Universal. circumstances basically the commons will. always get ruined and depleted and. everybody will be totally up the creek. that's right uh and if.

and Harden was basically like there's a. couple of solutions here you can either. divide this area up and now each person. has their own little private part of the. pasture that they're only in control of. and no one else can get on it and graze. there or uh a government uh body is. going to have to step in and regulate. this stuff and manage it uh and you know. if you listen to harden and we'll talk a. little bit about the problems with this. guy in a second yeah uh but if you. listen to harden he'll say when you. divide this things this thing up and. make it just private and everyone you.

know uh is incentivized to basically. preserve their plots and do it and do it. sustainably so their their profits are. maximized with you know making sure the. land isn't ruined so they can keep those. profits maximized yeah because now it's. their land and they suddenly realize oh. this is a finite resource if I start to. degrade this land it's only coming out. of my profits cuz the other farmers's. land is not degraded.

so I'm the only one in competition with. myself here really and I need to make. sure that this land is preserved because. now it's the the gold the goose that. laid the golden egg and I need to keep. it nice and healthy and happy that P. that's the direct result of. privatization as far as Garrett Harden. was explaining as far as the tragedy of. the commons goes right Simple Solution. just give people an incentive to take. care of it by making it their own and um. the other way like you said is. government intervention and this seems.

to be what Harden's big um like this is. the his favorite I think solution was. bring the government in and just say you. can't overg gra you can't graze more. than these number of sheep and if you do. uh will wipe out your entire family line. something along those those lines yeah. but here's the thing like it wasn't like. he was some big champion of the. government because if you if you read. the whole article uh Harden is like and. another thing uh the reason why the.

world is headed toward a bad place or or. a bad place already is because uh. freedom to breed is intolerable so. there's just too many people we're. making too many babies and the welfare. state that the government is encouraging. is taking away the natural consequence. of what happens if you have too many. kids like they're going to not be able. to sustain that and the kids are going. to starve to death so we're over. breeding and all of a sudden everyone's. going whoa whoa who and he said and.

another thing he said this overbreeding. it could actually be a strategy where a. cohesive group could come along to. increase their power and they're like. wait a minute are you talking about the. great replacement and he said I don't. know what that. is right and they said well it'll be a. thing at some point he's like I like the. Ring of it though yeah ex. catchy so yeah um yeah his whole thing. was we using scare quotes are are. overbreeding meant poor non countries. are overbreeding right that was.

basically his whole thing and that yes. because there was such thing as. International Aid in the way of food in. the way of money um that that people. could just keep having kids and knowing. that the Western wealthier governments. were going to take care of them and he. was like that's that's not what we. should be doing and here's why the. tragedy of the commons and to say that. by the way there's I I read another.

paper of his too um called Lifeboat. ethics. MH the argument against helping the poor. yeah that was the subtitle yeah so he. really just put it out there but he he. basically said okay let's imagine that. all of the um countries in the world are. lifeboats some are ridiculously. overloaded with people others the. wealthier uh more advanced ones let's. say that they're in a Lifeboat that. seats a 100 and they only have 90 people.

but there's tons of people swimming. around them trying to get in the. Lifeboat do you um Pick 10 people out of. these you know thousands of people out. there uh to let come into your Lifeboat. if so how do you pick those people uh. what do you tell the people you don't. pick and he ultimately concludes that um. just don't help anybody then you don't. have to worry about playing favorites or. anything like that plus you keep your.

10p person safety buffer in case things. change for you in your Lifeboat and. you're fine he actually argues against. guilt you shouldn't feel any guilt and. as a matter of fact we shouldn't put. guilt on people for making decisions. like these because they're just smart. and then secondly he also says that if. you are one of those people like that. one farmer who is like overg grazing is. morally repugnant and I'm not going to. do it if you were like that farmer in. this Lifeboat you said I just I can't do.

this I can't sit there and watch people. drown while I'm sitting here I'm going. to give up my seat for somebody. else Harden argued that just by virtue. of a person accepting your seat um they. are less moral than you and that over. time as more people in the Lifeboat give. up their seat for moral reasons morality. will be replaced in this Lifeboat with. self-interest and then what do you have. then so he makes all these like.

like if you're a rational person uh and. you take em motion out of it you're like. you know I guess that kind of makes. sense in a little bit but the moment you. add in any a drop of humanity to it. you're like this is horrible that this. guy wrote a series of papers arguing. this yeah and he you know as far as the. tragedy of the comments goes he very. explicitly says like you know you got to. prioritize yourself here and you're what. you're doing and maximize your profits. and if you don't if you have ethics or. something then you're you're not a very.

smart person right exactly so this was. his whole thing that you know like all. of it was overpopulation the thing is it. it got diluted. or taken very literally very quickly and. it was applied to actual Commons as. we'll see and just it was stripped of. its. overpopulation xenophobia racism all of. that stuff and just got applied to. realworld Commons management and to say.

like it changed things is the. understatement of the century Chuck. that's right uh should we take a break. yeah let's all right we'll be right back. everybody. [Music].

[Music]. [Music]. okay so uh the tragedy of the commons. became like the the dominant way of. looking at the world among Western. Nations because it did two. things it said that you can solve this. problem everyone is going have anytime.

you have a shared resource people are. going to deplete it that's what it said. no matter where you are in the world no. matter who you are um but we want to we. want to save these shared resources. because this paper came out at about the. same time that environmental. Consciousness came up so it was like. perfect timing for that but it also said. just privatize buddy and at that time. neoliberalism was on the rise and. they're like yes privatize take all. these government-run things and put them. in the hands of Corporations and we'll. all be better off off yeah and you know.

one of the ways that happened was and. we're going to talk about sort of. different versions of this here and. there uh in this episode but uh. environmental trading markets emerged. and that came from Canada uh actually an. economist named JH Dales in. 1968 uh but the 80s and 90s are when. they really kind of started flying off. the shelf uh but that's like when the. government comes in with a regulation. let's say uh to cap whatever in this. case like let's let's say they're. capping Emissions on baseball caps.

baseball caps uh I need to get rid of. some baseball caps so that's great oh. you have too many do you have any good. Hawks ones I'm on the I'm on the lookout. for those I have one Hawk cap that I. wear I got you I just gave away a second. one because it was too big but your your. head is too small for this thing it is a. really tiny head I'm like that um that. one Safari Hunter and Beetle Juice do. you know what your hat size is uh like 6. six okay that's.

good uh so oh let's say it's Fisheries. because we're going to talk about. Fisheries a lot so you know the. government will come in and say hey um. you're over fishing so we're going to. cap how many fish you can Harvest or. make it a certain size in a certain area. or something like that and then here's. your permit fishery a and here's your. permit fishery B and fishery C and they. Grant these permits uh but and this is. the key to the etms environmental. trading markets the word trade you can. trade. as I.E buy and sell these permits which.

and this is something that I don't fully. understand or maybe I do understand and. that's the whole point but if company a. is uh or let's say it's environmental um. like hey um you're a factory and we're. incentivizing you to clean up your your. pollution and here's your permit or. whatever if company a does a really good. job and does the right thing and comes. in like way under the amount of. emissions that they're supposed to hit.

mhm by simply selling that to Company B. who's like yeah we're not too good at. that I mean is it creating like doesn't. that kind of defeat the whole purpose no. it doesn't and we talked about this in. the acid rain episode do you remember. whatever happened to acid rain that. thing oh. yeah we it can work and it does work we. actually reduced sulfur dioxide. emissions that were red were associated. with acid rain so much that acid rain. went away and it was like the ozone.

layer of like the early 80s I think in. 70s like it was a big scary thing and we. took care of it because of cap and trade. schemes so it can work but how that's. what I don't get if if one company is. lowering their output but another one is. increasing theirs because they just. bought the other companies then how is. that a net loss because of the cap. because you put the cap at something. close to a Target that you want to. reduce things to. so you don't make like some Sky High cap.

that's more than what you're at now you. make it less and then maybe a couple. years later you make it less than that. so those caps those those um those. little shares or whatever um those. allowances that they can trade they they. get more and more valuable the less and. less they represent because the law is. kind of bringing these emissions down. further and further so ultimately you're. rewarding a company by reducing their. emissions because they can make money. selling that to another company and that. other company is actually technically. being punished because they're having to.

Shell out more money than they budgeted. for because they're emitting more than. they are supposed to so ultimately. you're penalizing and rewarding um. through this cap and trade scheme but. you're also creating an artificial Cap. all these companies could just pollute. as much as they want but this government. is saying no you actually can't here's. your level here it is divided among the. 10 companies go to town but is does that. make sense well yeah the the thing I. still don't get though is uh is the.

company that's you know buying extra. emissions um uh whatever output from the. company that's like really good at it. are they allowed to go over the cap they. no they but let's say they have a cap to. put out 10 pounds of CO2 right yeah and. they're going to they know they're. putting out 15 that year well this other. company that's putting out 5 pounds of. CO2 that year they can sell their other. five pounds so that no one goes over the. cap the total cap but different.

companies can contribute different. amounts based on how much of those um. allowance shares they can purchase or. sell does does that make sense yeah I I. guess so I promise it works it worked. for sulfur dioxide it does work the. problem is is it's also like it requires. a lot of buyin from industry or really. heavy-handed government regulation well. either way it became a big deal in the. 80s and by the end of the 80s uh the. World Bank referred to um tragedy of the.

commons as quote the dominant Paradigm. within Which social scientists assess. natural resource issues so uh I mean you. you can't like there's a bunch of. different policies and a a bunch of. different areas so you can't just look. at the entire thing as a whole and say. like well it's been a huge success like. you can pick out something like acid. rain say it was success in this case um. but there's humans involved so you you. never can tell well it's not like you.

never can tell I guess they can forecast. but uh there's not just one big blanket. like nope this is the exact solution. right for sure and it depends on the on. the industry right like you said acid. rain that was a great success story. Fisheries are another example um if you. take a fishery like you were saying and. you divide up the total catch between. companies um those companies can. actually go around and buy you know huge. portions of the other company shares.

right and so all of a sudden they're. basically one company with all of the. rights to catch all of the fish in that. fishery because they managed to. consolidate the shares over time um and. that's a huge problem that's not at all. what you want like yeah that that. fishing company is still staying within. the the total number of fish that can be. caught annually but they ran all the. other people out of business that so. that's not at all what you want with it. so there's there's pluses and minuses. there's it's situational the thing is is.

the tragedy of the commons has largely. been overblown and the idea that you can. come out on top just by privatizing. things like natural resources has been a. lesson learned the hard way that that's. just overall that's not necessarily the. best way to do it and it can really. really harm some groups while enriching. others tremendously well yeah and like. in the case of a fishery like if you're. a small fishing crew or something good. luck kind of working your way up and.

maybe establishing yourself as one of. the larger companies especially if the. people that are are buying these things. up are people that don't live around. there these corporations that right that. don't have a necessarily a local. interest and again while they might be. like hitting you know staying under the. threshold environmentally it might be. working out but you're consolidating the. wealth sometimes there's regulations on. that where they say you have to be you. know like on the fishing boat and. you know like Chick-fil-A if you're.

going to buy a Chick-fil-A franchise you. got to manage that thing exactly right. you want that Chick-fil-A Cadillac. exactly but uh sometimes there aren't. regulations like that and what's been. proven over and over uh especially with. etms if if there's a way for a system to. be exploited for profit then a company. will come along and do it no matter what. that's basically the the neoliberalism. T-shirt what you just said you know yeah. exactly uh here's the thing if you look. at the actual ual trategy uh tragedy of.

the commons um Harden sort of just. leaves conveniently leaves a lot of. stuff out like he's assuming in this. argument that like the the people that. the the farmers that are sharing this uh. grazing spot aren't talking to each. other at all about what's going on and. saying like Hey we're ruining this land. by the way maybe we should dial it back. like everybody get rid of two cows uh. and it also assumes that um their only. interest is to maximize profit and to. not care for the land and that's just. not always the.

case no I mean that's really a tough. sell to a neoliberal policy maker like. they they're just like you're crazy. you're so naive for even thinking that. of course their goal is to maximize. profits but what's really cool as we'll. see a little later on real world. examples prove that that's not true they. disprove the tragedy of the commons by. themselves it wasn't like oh let's set. up this crazy really kind of rickety. experiment and see if we can disprove. the tragedy of the commons no people.

went out and looked at real world uh for. example indigenous treatment of common. resources and they're like these people. have been managing and not depleting. these things for thousands of years now. because they came up with their own. sensible rules that aren't neoliberal in. nature yeah for sure um if you look at. the original sort of uh like it's not. just a theoretical thing if you look at. the paper by William Forester I think it. said Forester earlier not Forester uh.

Lloyd that this is the one Harden yeah. would you say hijacked to begin with he. did he did uh they were he was talking. about actual English Commons which was. how it used to work in medieval England. was uh the Lord would own all this land. but there were people that lived on it. it wasn't like hey this is my private. land no one can be here at first yeah uh. so the people that lived there they you. know they had to graze their animals and. fish out of the streams and and ponds. and things like that and they were. allowed to with you know through certain.

age-old Customs uh sometimes the local. government would step in and kind of. help manage this stuff and limit grazing. and things like that but it wasn't like. this set codified system in place all. over England it was just they had been. working it out for centuries like this. it wasn't perfect but it was sustainable. and they didn't like just destroy their. land because they all had self-interest. to keep it sustainable right uh and then. they were enclosed and enclosed was this. huge.

massive overlooked um world changing. event and we need to do an episode on. the fencing of the common someday. because it's just it changed the entire. mentality remember our um episode on the. Lites and how they emerged from a world. that was just it just completely turned. everything on its head yeah that's what. happened with enclosure when they fenced. the commons it changed everything and. the concept of private property like. really kind of developed out of that at. least in the west right um so we'll do a.

whole separate episode on that but. suffice to say that it seems to be once. the commons were fenced and were no. longer a shared resource that's when the. issues started to come up um if you ask. Carl marks uh he would have said that. this is where we came up with the. landless proletariat the working class. who had to work for wages because they. no longer owned anything uh it created. the very very wealthy class that didn't. actually have to do anything because all.

they had to do was start renting this. private property of theirs to the people. who needed to work um it it created a. whole system of problems and in fact. some people are like whether however you. feel about capitalism you can kind of. trace this back to the beginning of. capitalism the fencing of the commons. the irony of all this is that William. Forester Lloyd was arguing against Adam. Smith's capitalist idea that the.

Invisible Hand of the market will always. guide things to a good outcome he. created a ultimately the tragedy of the. commons as a thought experiment to show. like no actually people don't um people. aren't guided to this this bottom good. instead they are going to act in their. own self-interest and destroy this stuff. so Harden actually took it and turned it. around as an argument for capitalism for. private Enterprise for privatizing Stuff.

uh this argument that was originally. used to disprove that yeah and if you. were enclosing your own comments or. arguing in in that favor at the time you. were saying hey everything has been. chaos up into this point um it's very. inefficient and uh there's got to be a. more organized way to do this and that. was you know it wasn't a guise I guess. but what they were really saying was is. we want this area. right it's ours yeah I mean h let's just.

oversell the chaos maybe because it was. actually working out okay for many. centuries but but we're going to just. sell it as this this chaotic mess that. needs to be cleaned up and and organized. right that's how it's done it seems like. isn't it Charles like people people come. along and create a problem that's not. actually there for their own benefit. ultimately yeah my uh I have a friend. who ever since College he was just one. of those guys that while we were just. like uh whatever uh he was about what.

about everything about the world about. politics about you know that that period. of college where you just kind of check. out and all you care about is like where. you're going that night all that to say. he was a very smart guy back then and he. used to just say stuff that used to. shake all of us to our core about what. what's coming about this that or the. other with the government and he would. always say but here's how they're going. to sell it to you and I was that always. stuck with me and he's totally right. like they'll sell it to you as this but. then it becomes this. right yeah that's really interesting I I.

love stuff like that about how just. massive sweeping changes come from Just. A change in an idea a change in in. perspective and that's a really great um. that's what the tragedy of the commons. was it was an idea it was a perspective. he like Garrett Harden didn't undertake. a bunch of different experiments or. field studies or anything like that in. his paper which was published in science. by the way it was. essay about his own thoughts on.

something that he presented so. reasonably that people who were again. neoliberals who were in favor of. privatizing everything including common. resources could go to government policy. makers and be like here's how it works. doesn't that make sense and the. government said yes that that makes. sense let's start privatizing everything. and it was just because this guy took. this idea and made it approachable. that's it it's not it became fact even.

though it was never fact I just find. that fascinating how something like that. can just change the world well I you. know I think there were so many people. licking their chops they were like oh. here's a great opportunity for us to. jump on this bandwagon to take more for. ourselves right but what if the. bandwagon had never been there would. anyone have figured out how to. manipulate things so thoroughly. especially so quickly too without this. one paper this one biologist just wrote. yeah someone would have yeah but it.

would have happened peace meal I think I. don't know it's it's questionable that. it would have happened like it had yeah. maybe let's take a break all right we'll. be right back we're going to contemplate. that and come back with the definitive. answer right after this. [Music].

[Music]. [Music]. uh we don't have a definitive answer I. was just. kidding you got me we should talk about. elanar ostram though uh this is a woman. who wrote a book in 1990 called. governing the commons colon the.

evolution of Institutions for Collective. action and she's probably like at the. top of the list for um really bringing. this to the the upper echelons of the. political world uh worldwide I guess um. she took a bunch of examples all over. the world of uh controlled uh cprs like. um grazing areas it's always a good one. um in Switzerland in this case mhm uh. forests in Japan Meadows in Japan and of.

course fisheries and things like that in. this case in the Philippines um so kind. of really kind of picking different. spots all over the world and examining. the uh these and how they've worked out. and basically argued that like hey these. things are um had been working out for. for centuries um and it worked out. pretty good because everybody lived. there who was involved and when you have. local people that have long-term. interest in the well-being of their land.

and their area and keeping that up then. the economic side of things uh is is not. going to go away but it's going to take. a backseat to ensuring that this land. that they live in stays uh as close to. as it is as. possible yes and um so she was the one. who went out and actually did those. field studies that Garrett Harden didn't. like she had the receipts to back up. what she was saying which was the. tragedy of the commons isn't actually.

true it's certainly not in every case. and what's what's the ironic thing is. this Chuck um the tragedy of the commons. played out I feel like for the most part. when things were privatized and outside. industry were allowed to come in and. have a share of the comments that's when. it was that's when the problems really. be. yeah I I I so I want to say one other.

thing too because I know I'm kind of. known for having a very hardnose certain. opinion about things and it Slants you. know in this particular direction. typically okay I don't know in the last. like years so I've kind of lost my um. taste for for rigidity like that or. black and white thinking so I don't want. anybody to think that I'm just like. neoliberalism equals bad alternatives to. neoliberalism all good like I I just.

don't see the world like that anymore so. I I don't want anybody to think that I'm. just like I'm bashing neoliberalism as. if there's no no redeemable quality to. it whatsoever I just don't believe that. but in the case of the tragedy of the. commons I feel like more often than not. neoliberal policies again privatizing. shared resources or taking oversight. away from the government and just. putting it in the hands of the market. has disastrous for the world over the. last like 40 50 years um it's been.

really good for wealthy people and. helping other people get wealthier but. that ignores the expense on the backs of. other people that it's created too I. just wanted to put that out there yeah. that that I don't want anybody think I'm. just bashing neoliberalism because it it. does help in a lot of ways no and I I. know you well and I can tell everybody. that you are a very varied person who. who looks at things from all angles and. is very considerate of uh you don't just.

shut anything down outright you like to. consider things. now okay so back to ostram though um she. argues that hey this we we've shown time. and time again I shown these real world. examples in my books uh in Japan and in. Switzerland and in and the Philippines. with the Fisheries that this can work. but there's some parameters that have. been shown to ensure that it works and.

you got to follow these or it's not. going to work and she narrowed it down. to eight principles of like uh a. successful you know regulation of a of. of a common which is uh clearly defined. boundaries so who who can use this area. what is this area uh rules that fit. local needs and this is something we've. been kind of hammering on it's got to be. the local parties that come up with. these. rules uh what the the addition of. outside people people stepping in is. seems to be when all of the problems.

start because their interests are not. the same as local interests yeah history. kind of tells us that when outside. groups come in and start pushing the. people who've been using this thing for. a thousand years pushing them around. yeah um it just doesn't go very well. typically because the outside groups. don't necessarily understand this and as. we'll see that doesn't mean that there. shouldn't be the involvement of any. outside groups what um ostram was saying. that she found from these studies is. that you have to be again the base the. the the um people who are really laying.

the groundwork and setting the rules for. this they have to be the people who are. actually using this resource yeah for. sure uh the third one is group. decision-making so it's not just a a. couple of people or a small board. deciding these things like right get as. many people in there as possible local. people uh monitoring um you have to have. people monitoring and you know she used. her Forest land example in Japan was one. where she was like hey they had locals. monitoring the stuff and levying fines.

um so you've got to know that someone is. out there doing this so people you know. know they're going to be held. accountable and then the next one ties. into that and then when you do that um. you got to start out small with these. sanctions it's got to be like a warning. first and then a small fine you can't. just come in there with the the billy. club and say you're out um it's got. you've got to encourage people to to. stick around and like all right here's a. warning but uh you can't keep letting. this happen that kind of thing. I was really curious what the ultimate.

punishment is for repeat offenders and. the only example I could find was um. among a group in Bali um and ostracism. is is what the person ultimately faces. get out which it's but yeah and that's. bad enough in like a um a like a western. Society you know yeah but also you can. make do you know there's the internet uh. if you go into a store the person. basically has to take your money for. food in a a more traditional culture. ostracism like you're you're in big.

trouble because groups rely on one. another for help and the example they. gave was if one of your relatives dies. there's certain rights you have to. perform and if you're ostracized you. have to figure that out all by yourself. because the community is not going to. show up and help you for these um death. rights that that your ancestors demand. of you because that's just tradition. yeah yeah for sure uh the last three of. the eight uh easy dispute resolution. so just something on the on the cheap.

that's pretty informal and not some big. drawn out expensive you know tribunal or. something like that yeah no wigs no. powdered wigs no powdered wigs at all uh. you have to have support from. authorities uh and it may be a local. thing but you've got to have uh the. blessing of a larger government body to. at the very least not get in there and. muck it up themselves and just sort of. let you do your thing uh but maybe also. support uh and then finally building up. to a larger system so again keep it.

local but if it's a A system that. connects to a larger system like a creek. that connects to a larger Watershed. you're going to have to start linking up. with other local groups and make it a. larger thing right but the the the point. that she made too is that that works. that's actually scalable which is good. because like you said you know a creek. is one thing but it's it depends on a. watershed and so if you can get together. with other other people who are managing. their own Creeks you can manage the.

Watershed based on the the individual. common um I guess rules that that groups. have come up with and that you can scale. that into more modern systems too right. so like say a city has um somehow. created a cap on how much emissions that. the factories in the cities can create. um you can combine that with other. cities and now you're starting to manage. a larger part of the atmosphere and then. that's the State can come in and work. with all those cities and then the state.

can work with other states and all of a. sudden now you have Regional air quality. being controlled from the rules that are. based on the actual stakeholders in each. individual Community that's right uh and. didn't she win something for this work. she won the Nobel which Livia put in. parenthesis fake Nobel Prize in economic. scienes because that's not one that um. the no that was actually organized. originally she meant by that uh but one. of the things that that came out of the.

book there's a University of Chicago. legal scholar name named Leanne fennel. who points to that book and says you. know this is sort of uh um corrects. these legal theories that say property. is All or nothing like you either own it. or you and have total control over it or. you don't and it's actually possible you. you can have a common you can have an. area that people share and uh the the. example that that and still have some. autonomy and the example that Livia gave.

was like a house and if you got a family. in the house you know let's say you know. two people that have coupled up and have. children um you know it's a collective. but like you know generally speaking. unless you you live in a in a in a. terrible house with an author. authoritarian dictator as the head of. the household or a stepdad that makes. you feel stupid step that and makes you. feel dumb you've got you know kid has. your room and you know what you can this. is your room you know you have a right. to your room and you can basically um.

decorate it how you want within within. reason and do what you want in here but. uh but it's still part of the the. house right and technically your parents. own that room yeah but because of custom. custom and tradition they probably. respect that room as your private space. yeah and that's something as a parent I. found is super important because at a. certain age and this has been the last. couple of years with Ruby like. you know I'm GNA go into my room and. shut the door yeah and you're like no.

you're not well I'll open the door. because I just I just like and it's not. in a spy way I just like peeking in and. seeing the fun stuff she's doing and. Emily's like you know leave the door. shut you she's got to have that autonomy. and I'm like good for Emily that's. really sweet when you open the door do. you suddenly open and go what are you. doing I'll give I'll give a little knock. now you know uh and you know she's. usually in there drawing pictures of. cats and listening to music reading teen. be. yeah man do you remember so was your.

room your own private Sanctuary yeah I. mean Scott and I shared a room until I. was uh I feel like I was. probably 10 or 11 that's the that's the. room age right there yeah and that's. when we split but we were upstairs at. our house it was just two bedrooms and. separated by a join bathroom and my. sweet brother he I was so sad about. moving out of his room at first he. agreed to keep uh his bathroom door open.

so I could lay in bed and see through. the bathroom to him in his oh my God he. is such a he'd be the Rancher that would. be like I'm not overg grazing I'll just. die I know he's one of the best but yeah. so I had my own room and it was like my. sports posters and I went through a. Marilyn Monroe phase for some reason. where I had a bunch of her posters up I. I went through a James Zan phase that. was similar yeah exactly but yeah it was. my room I took a lot of pride in. decorating it and doing my thing and my.

parents my father literally did not come. upstairs uh that's a whole other story. uh and my mom did for a while but. basically I mean that was our zone for. the most part that's awesome you know I. I remember there not being anything more. satisfying than undertaking a total. remodeling of your room oh moving stuff. around furniture all of a sudden the. beds over here and like I us to doing. that it's it was it was so it just. changed everything I love that so much I.

have so many great memories of my room. yeah me too and I used to do that to. Apartments I lived in uh and I had a. ironically recently had a thought about. how much I used to enjoy that and how. like our house there you can't really do. that like it's set up in a in a way that. I can't be like hey let's rearrange our. living room it's like well you can cuz. let's move the built-ins outside yeah. exactly so those those days are over for. me unfortunately yeah same here that's. just how it goes as you get older it's. one more thing that brings you Joy or.

brought you Joy that's now dead and. shriveled up like a old. Leaf uh all right well let's finish up. on tragedy of the commons because um we. can use an example of main lobster. Fisheries is a pretty good example of. how people can start to do the wrong. thing but but correct course on their. own yeah uh and that was the case in the. 19th century when the state of Maine. started setting legal minimum sizes for. catching lobsters and they couldn't.

enforce it that well at first and people. broke the rules and were like you know. trying to make extra money or keep more. lobsters than they should for a while. but eventually they were like hey wait a. minute we're not doing ourselves any. favors here and if we're going to all. continue this to sustain our living. doing this we got to work together so. they they form Har Harbor gangs to start. self- policing basically so main lock. hobster Harbor gangs is there anything. scarier than the sound of that just.

seeing them kind of slowly come up on. your boat and they're all like they have. chains in their hands don't go over. there that's where the harba gangs are. very nice boy you just took me to cabit. co uh so they started self- policing and. everyone bought into this idea that. let's not ruin all of our livelihood. here and one thing that gets pointed out. is you can do this in a case like that. because lobsters are close to Short. right uh it's a small small community.

it's local people uh in the case of cod. and at some point we should do one on. the Cod Wars uh because that's where. this Factor's in COD travel long. distances and so it's hard to regulate. something like that that's widespread. and there's different countries involved. uh so yeah I guess tragedy of the. comments has been largely debunked even. though it completely altered the world. for decades and decades and still does. yeah I mean either blamed or accredited. with the birth of capitalism that's no.

small thing it's pretty big yeah yeah um. yeah so we're going to do one on fencing. of the commons one day and then we're. also going to do one on neoliberalism. someday and the Cod Wars yeah and the. Cod Wars any go uh well since Chuck. corrected me and added Cod Wars of. course that means it's time everybody. for listening or. mail uh first of all quick correction to. a correction uh when we got written in. about the Hodge pod. I um kept saying Modge Podge right it is.

mod podge and the the corrector got it. right I just kept saying it wrong wow. and uh I played it off to myself as a. joke but um it was not Mod Podge is. better I think the inventor of mod podge. is just like oh why didn't I call it Mod. Podge it's a boat it Rhymes even I. wonder if it was uh from the time when. Mod Squad was out cuz it does have kind. of like a hippie dippy flower look to it. doesn't. well de coupage is a very old thing and. I suppose that meant a modern deage mhm.

uh is my guess okay don't you think I I. don't know I didn't ever think about it. more than I have in the last couple. weeks I know. right I wish we'd never brought it up oh. man uh how get going oh I remember now. we mentioned Martha Stewart and I said. there's the hodge podge everywhere. mhm all right so this is from uh a. friend the Netherlands who said good. luck pronouncing the name but I'm I.

think I've nailed it so we're going to. see okay stay tuned for the end uh hey. guys just finish uh finished the episode. on automats and I felt I needed to write. in I'm from the Netherlands and believe. it or not automats are still a big thing. there um and I remember now after I got. a couple of emails about these of being. in Amsterdam Amsterdam and seeing these. feos Fe. boo places mhm I've not heard of that. well it's an automat basically um except. instead of a huge restaurant is just. like a you know a smallish room uh we.

refer to it as eating out of the wall. these places mostly just serve deep. fried food but in general is quite fresh. uh not sure why uh they're still so. popular though maybe it's because the. Dutch aren't really known for their fine. dining uh as we just want our meals to. be efficient and cheap nevertheless if. you're ever around I invite you to take. one of our famous cett or bitter balls. out of the wall which are especially. good after a night of heavy drinking uh. love the show best regard cards and that. is. fromes nice will you spell that for us.

non Dutch speakers uh at least that's. how I was told to say it it is. pronounced or I'm sorry spelled g i. JS and it's said hez that is fantastic. that looks like I just like brushed up. against the. keyboard it really does can you. pronounce it one more time uh what I've. got and what I'm sticking with is hez. that is great I hope you nail that Chuck. you deserve to all well thanks a.

lot. H the name you're trying to pronounce. is U we appreciate the email thanks for. filling Us in had no idea about bitter. balls and eating from the wall out of. the wall uh in Amsterdam so thank you. and if you want to be. like the name is ha and you can send us. an email too send it off to stuff. podcast at iheartradio.com. [Music].

stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts my heart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].