The SAD Episode | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And it's a stuff you should know. hoown to start the new year. Chuck's. still wearing his novelty 2026 glasses. that he got uh sponsored by Nivea that I. believe what you're saying was Ryan.

Serest himself handed them to you while. you were at Times Square, right? >> No, not handed. He put them on my face. with his hands. >> Whoa. Is it because you guys are. co-workers? >> Yeah, he's he's with iHeart, isn't he? >> Yeah, but I think like half of the the. US is a co-orker of his. He's got so. many jobs. Yeah, you're probably right. Uh, well, if you haven't guessed, listening audience, this is our first. recording of the new year. >> Yes. >> I'm probably going to be a little rusty.

>> Uh, and can I can I just give a quick. shout out uh to a couple of things? >> Yeah, please, too. >> Great. Um, as well, Josh knows all this. stuff because we communicate outside of. work, believe it or not, because we're. fans. Uh, but I went to, you know, New. York City. Emily and I do our little. Broadway weekend in New York over. Christmas every year. And this year, I. just want to say thanks to a couple of. people. Um, most notably, uh, Natasha. Hodgson of Operation Mince Meat fame. >> Mhm.

>> Uh, because she is in the show and and. put together the show and uh, Stuff You. Should Know and she's been in magazines. as people alerted us as giving Stuff You. Should Know credit as our episode. inspiring that show. >> Mhm. and was kind enough to give us a. couple of tickets to go see it. And it. was fantastic. I highly recommend it. >> I know. I was loathed to miss it. That. sucked. >> I wish you could have been there, but. it's, you know, it's still playing. So. maybe you can uh check it out. >> Yeah. I was especially upset when you.

said that she um gave you she came out. into the audience in the middle of the. show and gave you like a bouquet of. roses. >> No, no, no. That was. >> and the audience lifted you up on their. shoulders. >> No, that was that was that didn't. happen. Uh, also uh went to Bar. Centrolley as I like to do before. Broadway and Bar Centroly is where I go. before Broadway shows. >> What What is it? >> It's a bar. >> Okay. >> But it's it's sort of a I mean you can. just make reservations a week out. I. think I've mentioned this before. It's. >> it's sort of a secret place in that it.

doesn't have a sign or it's not widely. >> Oh, those are cool. >> publicized, but um you know, seven days. out from when you want to go, you can. call them up. They specialize in getting. people in and out of there pre and post. Broadway. >> Uh, and you know, sometimes you can see. Broadway performers there on the down. low. >> Nice. I would have no idea that one. could be sitting next to me and I. wouldn't even know. >> Uh, well, you might if it's if it's a. famous, you know, like Brian Cranston. was sitting there. >> He was.

>> No, but he he could be. I saw years ago. I saw Dexter in there. What's his name? >> Uh, Dexter's good enough. >> Yeah. Uh this year I saw the lady from. Lost uh although I don't think she's on. Broadway. She was in there. But all this. to say big thanks to Jason who helps. take care of Barcolley and Joe's on. Broadway. Uh he came over on his night. off just to say hi and was just a total. sweetheart of a guy. >> What a trip. >> And then finally uh I want to thank. Santa uh Santa Claus.

>> in the Radio City Music Hall show. I. surprised Emily by going to the. Christmas show this year for the first. time. >> Cool. Yeah, I remember Santa wrote in. >> Santa wrote in and although he was not. in the performance we went to, uh Santa. Adam uh was very kind to send a. Christmas video to Ruby. Um have you. been to the show? >> No, I I'm just some bumpkin who stays at. home all the time apparently. >> Dude, you and Yumi have to go to the. Radio City Music or Christmas. Spectacular. It is one of the delights.

of my life. The Rockett was one of the. most impressive, most amazing live shows. of any kind I've ever seen. They They. were incredible. >> Wow. Okay, I'll go. >> Yeah. And And it's, you know, you love. you guys love your Christmas cheer and. it really You can't Even the biggest. Grinchy Kaggen wouldn't help but get in. the mood uh even at the 10 a.m. show. But the Rockheads were amazing and Santa. said that uh he turned them on to our. listener mail and the Rockett episode.

and some of the now current Rocketts are. listening. >> Oh, cool. >> So, a shout out to you Rockett. Keep. keep on kicking. >> Hello, Rockett. We did a whole show on. the Rockett, didn't we? >> We did. >> Yeah. All right. That was amazing, Chuck. >> You were you were sick over the holidays. and it felt terrible. >> It really stunk. I got this cold that um. apparently there's like a two-eek cold. going around. >> Oh no, that long. >> And it was just like every day I would. add a new symptom and it was I could do.

stuff during the day but I was just sick. the whole time and it was I'm. >> so sorry. >> It was rough. Yeah. So thanks for that. I appreciate it. But we still had a. great Christmas. >> Momo knows how to open presents. >> So she opened presents on Christmas. morning. She was so happy. >> Paws or teeth? >> Quite a both. >> Okay. >> Yeah. She She's a pro. She knows what. she's doing. She got some new rabbit. treats, so she laid on on her back and. rolled on those and she had a great. Christmas morning. So, >> that's wonderful. >> It was a good Christmas after all. We. hung out with friends on Christmas Eve. and.

>> our friends Laurel and Braden. >> uh and their kids um Elliot and Bear. >> So, we got to hang out with Yeah, you. do. You've met them plenty of times. So, we got to hang out with little kids on. Christmas Eve. And man, that will put. you in the Christmas spirit when you. don't have kids of your own. >> Yeah. How How old are those kids? They're like eight and six, I think. So, like prime age. >> Yeah. Right in the zone. >> Yeah. So, thank you though for your um. sympathy over my sicknesses. >> Yeah. I felt bad. >> Uh one thing I don't have, Chuck, which.

I am really happy I don't have because. it's awful, is sad. >> No sads for you. >> I don't have sad. Do you have sad? >> No, I don't have sad. Uh you know, we're. talking about seasonal effective. disorder. And just right off the bat, we. should point out cuz I was about to say. occasionally I get the winter blues. This is not that. This is a real uh it's. legitimate depression and uh comorbid. with stuff like bipolar disorder. And. we're going to talk all about it, but. it's not just, you know, oh, I get a.

little blue in the winter sometimes when. it's, you know, gloomy. >> No. Um but it's tied to that. Yes. Um. it's just it seems to be an extreme. version of that. But you're right, it's. not it's nothing light. It's classified, I believe, in the DSM, as a major. depressive disorder. Yeah. >> With a seasonal pattern. I think that's. the clinical name for seasonal effective. disorder. And um there are people out. there, I think something like 5% of.

people, I don't I believe that's an. American statistic. >> Yeah, that's America. get the like real. deal seasonal effective disorder where. they have major depressive symptoms. Yeah. During the winter months, but. something like um 10% or maybe even. higher than that in the United States, people get what's called sub syndrome um. seasonal effective disorder. So, where. you don't have it where it could be. considered major depression, but it's. definitely worse than the holiday blues.

And the weird thing about this, although. it's not so weird once we explain it, it. is seasonal. It's tied to winter and it. seems that they figure. >> or summer, which I that one's just. mind-blowing to me. >> Yeah, we'll get into that. >> Yeah, they um it seems like they have it. figured out. They have this they have it. explained. So, this is one of my fave. episodes where it's like here's how the. human body works. Here's what's messed. up with this when we're talking about. this. Tada. I love episodes like that.

>> Yeah. Not a lot of mystery. Uh big. thanks to Livia for getting the new year. off to a great start with another. banger. >> Yeah. Here. Here. >> Yeah. We should say that um this is. something that hasn't been officially I. mean it's obviously been around since. you know time began because uh as we'll. see it's tied to seasons and especially. light and how much light you're getting. So that's always been a thing but it. hasn't been officially diagnosed as a. thing um for that long. It was in 1984.

when there was a paper uh by researchers. at the um National Institutes of Health, a particularly guy named Norman. Rosenthal. >> Mhm. >> Um got together and they discussed these. uh almost 30 I have a feeling one. dropped out cuz there were 29 patients. Uh most of them had bipolar disorder and. they all had what we now know is as sad. >> Yeah. That 30th one when they like one. week in they're like how do you feel? And they were like fine. and like you're. cut.

>> get out of here. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, bipolar disorder we'll see. like really kind of ties into this. It. seems to be like also um seasonal in. some weird way too, but um pretty. quickly after that 1984 paper, the DSM. went all in. Three three years later, the DSM3R, as we all know, R stands for revised or. rocking. uh that came out in 1987 and it. was like now it was a diagnosis but it. was used as a modifier as we saw major.

depressive disorder with a seasonal. pattern. So it wasn't its own thing. It. was just a a subtype essentially of an. existing depressive disorder. That's. kind of how they first had it. >> Yeah. And um you know because it's. seasonal uh the most common kind of sad. that we think about u like we mentioned. it is very serious thing and it starts. off in the fall uh maybe early winter. and it kind of depends on where you are. as we'll see although not always.

intuitively. Uh there's a a third act. reveal that might surprise some people. >> Mhm. >> Um it generally subsides in the spring. Um but I did mention that that odd. spring and summer variety uh that is. hasn't been studied much. It's very very. limited. About 0.5% of the population. >> um has this opposite pattern. Um but it. is a diagnosible mood disruption. It. just happens in the spring and summer. >> and it's tied more to sort of like um. oppressive heat and maybe unsurprisingly.

some of the things they recommend for. that which again we're going to cover a. little more later is stuff like maybe. stay inside, dim the lights, that kind. of thing. >> Yeah. And the thing that gets me about. the summer version, that much rarer one, is that the symptoms are almost in some. cases opposite the symptoms of winter. >> So, usually when it's when it you first. start getting sad, um it's around young. adulthood, ages 18 to 30, I think. Um. and most people who get it get it most.

years, but you don't necessarily have it. every year. >> Um women are four times likelier than. men to have it. And if you have an. existing mood disorder, you're much. likelier to suffer from seasonal. effective disorder because it's almost. like it takes your existing mood. disorder, say bipolar, too, and just. builds on it. There's an extra like. environmental punch to it that really. kind of kicks it into high gear. >> Yeah. And that that four times more. common in women, that's that's really.

substantial. Uh and we'll get into that. uh it seems to be tied to estrogen, but. we'll dig into that a little bit more. >> uh in a bit. But uh having family. members, they think there's some genetic. uh component to it. If you have. relatives that have depression or any. kind of mental health disorder, um it's. you know, obviously it doesn't mean you. will. Uh but that could mean you you. might I guess that's the way doctors say. it. >> Yeah, you might. Got it. And not. surprisingly, you're more likely to.

develop SAD if you live in places in the. far, you know, away from the equator, far north or south, where there's going. to be less sunlight, uh, or maybe, you. know, in places like Seattle where. there's just more gray days than others. >> Yeah, I was surprised. I couldn't find. the other eight, the first eight, but. Seattle was the ninth most affected city. um, with seasonal effective disorder. I. would have thought it'd be higher than. that. >> I could not find the first eight. So, I'm like, does this list really exist or. was this just like a post intelligence.

or madeup article? >> And do they do they tie in things like. or uh do they list things like Tacoma, >> like neighboring neighboring towns? Does. that count as a different place? I. wonder. >> That's a great question. What about. Tacoma? >> Well, I just wondered. And Tacoma is. very lovely, but uh maybe Seattle might. be a little more lively. >> Um, yeah. No, I get in trouble. >> No. No. Everybody knows about Tacoma. Okay. Okay. >> It's been a long time since we picked. down a particular city.

>> Oh, I don't want to put Tacoma in our. sites. >> Okay. We won't. >> because you know, you can't spell you. can't spell CATC without TAC. >> That's right. Um, so what happens when you um. experience SAD seasonal effective. disorder? I mean, most people can kind. of come up with this idea of like what. depression symptoms seem like, but. there's specific ones that that emerge. with seasonal effective disorder. Yeah, I think you know generally what you will. see like with most depression, listlessness, um obviously sadness,

>> uh interest in activities that you might. normally like uh you don't like as much. Uh you may have hard time concentrating. uh suicidal thoughts if it gets really. bad. Um hopelessness, maybe guilt. sometimes. Uh and then some physical. symptoms like just a a weight like in. your limbs sometimes. >> Yeah, like a lethargy, a fatigue. Mhm. >> And those Yeah, that's kind of common. among depression in general, but but. winter sad has some extra symptoms like. um oversleeping or just sleeping too.

much. >> uh or more than you normally would. Um. craving carbs, overeing, >> yeah, >> weight gain. >> Um and then that that fatigue, the low. energy and tiredness. And all of those. things too create like a a feedback loop. where you know if you're depressed and. you start gaining weight and that kind. of thing bothers you, you're going to be. even more depressed because you just. started gaining weight. In which case, if you're an emotional eater, you might. go eat more carbs.

>> and gain more weight. And there, you. know, it just kind of goes on. So that's. one of the the. um difficult things about it is it's. it's not just like I'm depressed. It's. I'm depressed and now everything is set. up because of this winter season for me. to just keep getting more and more. depressed while winter's going on. >> Yeah. And if you're sitting there. thinking like, "Oh man, like in the. winter time I tend to sleep later and I. tend to eat and maybe drink a little. more and gain some weight.

>> and I'm a little more tired." Those are. also uh that's why SAD is such a sort of. a unique thing because that also just. describes a lot of people in the winter. Um but there there is a difference and. you know we're going to be pointing out. those differences. Uh you mentioned. summer was unusual because the summer. sads because it's very much opposite and. that goes for the symptoms as well. because uh instead of sleeping in you. might have trouble sleeping instead of. eating too much you might have a low. appetite you might lose weight you might. be anxious and agitated and irritable.

Um headaches is another one for summer. sad. Yeah, it's like winter said you go. inward and are um kind of closed off and. with summer said you go outward but um. it's not in any like that doesn't mean. you're just more sociable. It means like. you're more aggro potentially than you. would be with like winter sad. So yeah, it is they're just kind of opposites and. yet they tie into like you were saying.

how people already are like you go out. more in the summertime, you stay in more. in the winter time. So that what seems. to be the case with seasonal effective. disorder is that it is a hyper or hypo. version of a normal human biological. imperative that we've learned as a. society to try to ignore. And for some. people ignoring it is not really an. option because it's so um pronounced.

>> Yeah. And inescapable. >> Yeah. >> Um so there are basically four things. and like I said if you feel like oh man. I kind of feel those things in the. winter too. Listen to these four things. because this is when you should see a. medical professional is if uh one if. these feelings persist for days and days. in a row. Uh it's not like I just had a. couple of rough days when it was like. really rainy and cold. >> Um if your sleep and appetite patterns. uh like really change is the second one. Uh if you're coping with drugs and.

alcohol, that's a big red flag. And then. the fourth one um if you feel hopeless. or suicidal uh for sure. And I think as. far as diagnosis goes um you have to um. I think it has to be for at least two. years in a row. Even though you did say. you don't necessarily have it all years, you at least have have to have it two. years in a row at some point. >> Yeah. And because uh it is essentially. if you look at the winter sad and summer. sad, they're basically two ends of a. spectrum. Yeah.

>> Mania and um depression. Like people. with bipolar two are definitely more. susceptible to sad. And they might. experience both types of seasonal. Although again, just statistically. speaking, they're much more likely to. just experience the winter sad. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh and if you do see a. professional, they're probably going to. ask you a lot of questions. Um you might. even fill out an official questionnaire. Um there's no like blood test or brain. scan or anything like like you know, other types of depression. That's the.

case as well. Uh but you might get they. might rule things out. They might do. like a thyroid screening or, you know, some other things just to make sure it's. not something like physical going on. >> Right. So, that's sad everybody. Um, and I. think we should talk about where this. whole thing comes from. They think uh. after a break, Chuck, our first break of. 2026. Let's make it a big one. >> You still got it. You still got it. >> All right. Lately, I've been learning. some stuff about insomnia.

or aluminia. How about the one on borderline. disorder? Better yet, reporter. Heard. that one before, but it was so nice. I. learned it twice. Everybody listen up. Oh, it's Charles and Joshua. It's stop. now.

>> This is. the purpose of this. >> All right. So, kind of like we were. talking, it's it's kind of hard to um. diagnose this uh as far as when you. should go to a doctor because um a lot. of people are just like this in the. winter. And you're also sort of. fighting, I think you kind of hinted at. it, like a natural.

>> uh human uh intuition in a lot of ways. because if you go back in time. >> to the time where tuk tuk was roaming. the earth. >> in the winter, they slowed down and they. conserved energy cuz food wasn't around. and it was cold. So they they bunkered. down and there are some interesting. theories around that, right? >> Yeah. They think it's possible that. Neanderls had like a real um type of. hibernation period in the winter. Not,

you know, like a bear necessarily, but. something more pronounced than humans. And that interbreeding with um. Neanderthalss. >> may have produced seasonal effective. disorder in some people. >> Pretty cool. >> When homo sapiens started hugging and. kissing Neanderthalss. >> That's right. Like in uh uh what was it? Quest for Fire. >> Oh man, that there was some real. realizations in that movie. >> It was a I mean, what an interesting. movie though, you know.

>> Yeah, Ron Pearlman. >> Yeah, he really he's he's a good. caveman. >> That By the way, did a minute ago Did I. say bunker down? >> Mhm. >> I meant to say hunker down. Is bunker. down even a thing? >> I feel like it should be more than. hunker down. It makes more sense. >> Okay. >> I didn't even know. I heard you and made. like I grasped that you said bunker. down, >> but it's so natural that it didn't even. seem wrong. >> Yeah. And and our Georgia Bulldogs, what. they say for them is hunker down, you. hairy dogs. I'm going to start saying.

bunker down and everyone's just going to. think I'm like a CIA plant or something, >> right? A narc. >> Yeah. >> Oh, I can't talk about the dogs right. now. >> I know. Very disappointing. >> What a heartbreaker. >> Yeah. Uh, okay. So, you said something. like um that that people back in tuk. tuk's age um definitely slow down in the. winter time, right? Your body just. changes. And that's still the case with. humans. We have not evolved out of that. And there there's been studies. There.

was a 2015 study that found that the. Sean in Bolivia and the San people in. Namibia who are in no way, shape, or. form related. One's in South America, one's in Africa. Um, they both sleep. longer in the winter and less in the. summer. And you might say like, well, duh. We all do that. That's exactly the. point. There's some sort of biological. mechanism. there's some sort of like I. said imperative where you without.

conscious thought and kind of without um. without a choice you slow down in the. winter time and you speed up more in the. summertime. That's just what our bodies. do. And because of this natural thing, it can go haywire just like any other. natural thing in humans. And when it. does, that produces seasonal effective. disorder and they think they've got the. mechanism to the whole thing down. >> Yeah. And that, you know, that's kind of. evidenced in this uh German study from. 2023. They did a study and caveat all.

this was it was a study already of. people that had uh sleeping issues with. disturbed sleeping patterns, >> right? >> So it was kind of, you know, it wasn't. just the the general population. >> And interestingly, they found that even. if they were living in an place where it. was mostly artificial light, even then. by season their sleep cycles would vary. So, it's not just like, yeah, if you if. you live out away from all the, you. know, out in the boonies, away from. industrialization and your circadian.

rhythms are really dictated by natural. light, that would make sense. But they. found that that that took place even. when you were just living a regular. well-lit life. >> Yeah. Even when you lived in an a. windowless brutalist apartment in. Munich. >> That's right. >> You wear a black turtleneck all year. round. >> Oh, man. Um, and then another kind of thing like. you said that was a small study and it. was of people who already had a sleep. disorder yet it backs up what everybody. kind of anecdotally already knows,

right? You sleep more in in um the. season or you're more tired in the. winter season. Another thing that's. anecdotal but is backed up by study is. that your appetite changes, right? >> Yeah. >> Some of it's um cultural where like you. know Christmas cookies are around. >> Sure. you're going to eat them. And. Christmas cookies aren't around in. March. Say maybe some maniac makes like. St. Patrick's Day cookies, but way more. people make Christmas cookies than St. Patrick's Day cookies. So, there are.

reasons that your appetite does increase. cuz there's more delicious stuff around. But we've also found that just by being. in colder temperatures, being exposed to. colder temperatures over periods of. time, hormone levels change um in our. bodies and we crave more calories um. because as we digest them, we produce. more heat and that keeps us warm. We. don't need bare skins anymore. >> Yeah, that's right. Uh we need Buckeye. balls. Mhm. >> And uh Emily's aunt comes to town every.

Christmas now and all the uh her uh her. mom and her aunt and her sister and. Ruby, they all make have a night making. Christmas cookies. >> Nice. >> Oh, dude. I I did better this year than. usual. Uh I somehow managed to only put. on five pounds. >> Hey, that's not bad for Christmas. season. >> From Thanksgiving to January 4th. >> Yeah, that's great. >> That's not bad because usually that. number is more like 12. So, uh, and and. I found that that that temporary sort of.

gain goes off a little quicker, too. >> Yeah, it certainly. >> once you get back to reason, you know. >> Yeah, that's the key is getting back to. reason faster than, you know, just not. putting it off for the rest of the month. of January. That's what I found. >> Yeah. You got And the Buckeye balls are. gone and those oldfashions uh really. slow down after Christmas. >> Man, those Buckeye balls. >> Oh, god. Um, I made my mom's Christmas. cookies, my mom's recipe, the one that I. grew up with as a kid that had. confounded me for years. Um, because I. couldn't get it quite right. It was.

always too flowery. >> Okay. >> And in the last few years, I've learned. enough about baking that I kind of. figured it out on my own and I nailed it. finally. >> Nice. Man, I got to have some of those. >> It took I'll make you some. It took. >> Next Christmas though. >> Yes, for sure. Not Well, St. Patrick's. Day maybe. >> Don't do it. But Yumi got me these. cookie cutters that are all like kind of. um uh they're like sentimental between. us, like different shapes. >> And one of them is broccoli. So I have.

broccoli shaped cookie cutters and I. hate broccoli. So it's. >> Oh, I love that. That's fun. >> Yeah. Um I don't have any Oh, yeah. We. were talking about how appetite changes. >> That's right. Here is one thing though. Uh you might think you've you've. probably heard that like you know uh. suicides spike around the holidays cuz. it can be such a tough time of the year. for people. >> Um that is actually not true. In fact. they happen the least in December. They're more common in the summertime. >> Uh of course in Australia that's. reversed because of of where they are.

and how their their seasons run. >> Uh so we're talking about the you know. our uh hemisphere's uh perspective. obviously, >> right? But I I found that interesting. and uh it's good to correct the record. because I think everyone always hears. that it it's probably good in a way. because it's anytime you're raising. awareness on something like that uh. that's a good thing, but that that's not. true that they spike over the holidays. >> No, I feel like we've talked about that. before and they they think that maybe. like just by people reaching out more.

during the holidays, you have a greater. social calendar typically um just the. holiday spirit can get to people. But. then also there's some other. explanations for why it might be more um. common in the spring or summer months. like you might just have more energy um. to actually complete suicide, >> right? Another one that I thought was. just horrible is that you there are. autoimmune conditions like lupus or. rheumatoid arthritis. Yeah. >> That are linked to seasonal allergies.

and that people who have those um are. just this overlooked population of uh. people with a higher suicide risk. >> and that that would account for it. because your lupus is is probably. flaring up way more in the spring and. summer than it is in the winter months. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, and you know, we've. kind of hinted around about the the. length of day and we're going to talk a. lot about that uh over the next little. bit, but um it is, you know, it's. intuitive and it's correct that, uh, the. more intense that seasonal change is as.

far as that length of day goes, uh, the. more likely you're going to have SAD. There was a, I believe it was a meta. analysis from South Korea just last year. in 2025. They did studied 24 studies, uh, with 30,000 total participants. So. pretty robust. >> and for each one degree of increase in. latitude. >> uh SAD rose by 2% and the um just the. winter blues by 32%. So one you know one. degree uh increase in latitude is.

obviously a little less daylight. >> It's like Jimmy Buffett said changes in. latitude changes in attitude. >> Never thought about that. >> That's what he was talking about with. seasonal effective disorder in that. song. >> Yeah. He changed the title though. because you know when you title things. like Cheeseburger in Paradise, you can't. title something seasonal effective. disorder. >> Well, it was originally this song was. titled major depressive disorder with a. seasonal pattern. >> Right. >> So, yeah, I think he was wise to change. it as well.

Um, so let's talk about you want to get. into some of the causes. I've been. teasing this the basically the entire. episode and I'm really kind of jazzed. about this part. >> Yeah. I mean, here's here's where it. gets sciency. Uh because our old friends. obviously serotonin and melatonin show. up, right? >> Yes. So just as a refresher, serotonin. is responsible for things like mood, sleep, cognition, bunch of other stuff, but as far as seasonal effective. disorder goes, those are the important. things that serotonin does, right? >> Yeah.

>> What's really cool, I didn't actually. realize this, sunlight hitting your. retina actually triggers production of. serotonin. it increases the production. of serotonin, right? >> So therefore, when we're exposed to less. sunlight, there's a lower angle of the. sun. You just don't get as much sun. physically in the winter months. Um that. means that your serotonin levels are. actually less in winter than they are in. the brighter spring and summer months.

That's just a fact. It happens to. everybody. But in most people, your. serotonin transporter gene starts. producing less um serotonin transporter, the stuff that goes in and gets the. serotonin out of the syninnapse. Right. >> That's right. >> Which means that the there's less. serotonin, but there's also less. transporters removing this the serotonin. that's there. So you keep about the same. level of say mood that you would have in.

the summer months because your body is. adjusting. What they found just. amazingly is that there are two things. that are screwed up with the serotonin. and the serotonin transporter that seem. to be one of the major causes of. seasonal effective disorder. >> So spill it, you're on a roll. >> Okay. So people with seasonal who get seasonal. effective disorder, they have enough. serotonin all year to keep them um from. being depressed, right? But just like.

everybody else, when they are exposed to. less light, their serotonin goes down. But the thing that seems to give them. seasonal effective disorder is that. their serotonin transporters don't also. go down. Right? So like everybody else, they have lower serotonin during the. winter, but they have the same amount of. serotonin transporters. So there's less. serotonin. and proportionately speaking, there's. more serotonin transporters removing the. serotonin, keeping it from working, which pushes them from uh not.

non-depressed to depressive symptoms. All because they're exposed to less. light during the winter time. >> Yeah. And you know, I mentioned women. have it four times as often as men do, and it was tied to estrogen. And it. looks like uh variations in estrogen. levels can interact with those changes. in serotonin and and basically make it. worse. And that probably is the. explanation why women get it more. >> uh and and you know, pmenopause and.

menopause affect all that as well, which. are uh that's an episode we need to we. need to do for sure. >> Yeah. Uh and also there you know we. mentioned there's a genetic element. right u so it looks like that people is. generally speaking who have at least one. short alil uh in that serotonin. transporter gene promoter region I know. that's a lot of words everybody. >> uh the TLDDL is too too long didn't. listen is that right. >> yeah nice.

>> is that uh it's there's a genetic. component so uh if you have that short. alil you're going to be more more. vulnerable vulnerable to developing just. regular depression. >> uh to to any kind of like you know life. events or stresses like that or just. depression period. >> but that short alil is also associated. >> uh with those higher cert levels the STR. levels in the winter and that's where. your increased level of SAD is going to. come on. >> yeah so that's serotonin that's a big. big factor in producing seasonal.

effective disorder as well as just any. kind of major depression right. >> yeah so melatonin is next. And that just. kind of broadly speaking, as far as. we're concerned, is is the one that, you. know, kind of makes you sleepy. >> Yeah. Which I mean, it can make you. sleepy, it can make you lethargic, it. can make you not want to go out and all. of this stuff. Remember, there's a. positive feedback loop here with the the. depressive symptoms that come on with. seasonal effective disorder. The. behavior they produce feeding back into. becoming more and more depressed.

Melatonin um keeps you from wanting to. do stuff because that's the way our. bodies are set up to to respond during. the winter. And it all has to do with. the circadian rhythm, which as everybody. knows, most people know governs your. sleep and wake cycle, right? >> Yeah. >> It also has to do with digestion. It has. to do with body temperature and um all. sorts of other hormones. I didn't know. this, but apparently um it has to do. with the release of cortisol, which um. we think of cortisol typically as a.

stress hormone full stop. And it is, but. it also is a hormone that causes us to. do more stuff to produce more energy. >> So when the circadian rhythm is not. quite functioning correctly, um it. doesn't just make us sleepy, it actually. makes us less energetic as well. And the. whole thing, the whole circadian rhythm. is controlled by a little part of the. hypothalamus called the super keymatic. nucleus or the SCN. >> Nice work on that one. >> I've practiced a couple times.

>> Yeah, the seen. And this is where we can. throw a little German in there. Uh it. relies on uh tight gabers or timegivers. And these are just clues from the world. around us telling you, you know, what's. going on. And mainly what we're talking. about here is light. uh sunlight again. hitting those retinas, it travels to the. the SCN and then that signals the pineal. gland to release or produce uh that. melatonin. So the more light you have, the less melatonin you have. Uh that's.

why uh you know, you're not supposed to. be looking at your cell phone or avoid. like really bright lights before you try. and get some sleep. >> Uh but the TLDDL here is it just means. our bodies make more melatonin in the. winter time than the summertime. So, you're going to be sleeping longer and. probably a little more lethargic. >> Yeah, exactly. So, serotonin plus. melatonin uh being messed with, it. happens to everybody, but most people's. bodies respond in a way that that. regulates it and keeps it from becoming.

depression. Some people do not have that. same way to regulate it and that's who. has seasonal effective disorder. >> Yeah. And I thought this is really. interesting. So, it's, you know, we just. said that if you experience uh SAD, then. you're pro, you're going to have a. greater than average increase in. melatonin in the winter than, you know, your your average person. >> Uh, but this is really interesting. You. know, we talked about sunlight coming. through your retinas, and that's the. pathway that it initially travels, right? >> Maybe a little on your skin, but mainly. through your retinas.

>> They found that your retinas actually. actually react less to light in the. winter compared to the summer. >> You're right, Chuck. That is really. interesting. Thank you, Josh. >> Uh, and I guess before we break, we. should talk about the third little thing. after serotonin and melatonin, which are. social and environmental factors. Uh, you know, if you have SAD, you you when. it's when fall rolls around, you start. to get that dread. Um, you're going to. have a negative emotional response to. winter. Um, it's not the cause of it,

but that's part of that feedback. feedback loop that you were talking. about. You're like, "Oh man, the days. are going to get shorter. Uh if you live in the Pacific Northwest. or other places where it rains a lot and. it's just more gray days that time of. year, >> you just you start to have that dread. and that just that just feeds. everything. >> Yep. Yeah. It just makes it worse and. then Yeah. The whole thing is that. feedback loop. >> Chuck, I'm going to do it again. Um. >> I think we should take a message break. >> All right, we'll finish up with SAD.

right after this. Lately, I've been. learning some stuff about insomnia or. aluminia. How about the one on borderline. disorder? Better yet, reporter. Heard. that one before, but it was so nice. I. learned it twice. Everybody listen up. Oh, it's Charles and Joshua. It's.

stop. Now. >> this is. the purpose of this record. >> All right. Um so we talked several times. that about SAD being a form of major. depression which means that it is um. highly treatable actually thanks to our. friend the selective serotonin reuptake.

inhibitor SSRI or anti-depressants. Apparently wellbutrin works really well. to treat SAD but um basically any SSRI. is going to work. Um, one thing that. stuck out to me, I believe that if you. have seasonal effective disorder, but. you you're not you don't have bipolar, you don't have major depressive. disorder, it's just seasonal. >> Um, I guess they suggest that you take. SSRIs, you ramp up in say like the fall.

before it becomes winter, and then you. wean off uh as springtime comes around. So they would have you on SSRIs but not. year round because you wouldn't need. them year round. I thought that was. fascinating because that can be that can. be risky if you don't do it right. It. can be really risky. >> Yeah. And uh you know, one of the things. after uh that they suggest with all of. these treatments is that you you um you. start before it hits like you know, and.

depending on where you live, like when. fall starts rolling around, >> maybe you start some of these therapies. uh to see if you can head it off at the. pass like in the Old West. >> Yeah. >> Uh but CBT is another thing that they. suggest uh like all uh cognitive. behavioral therapy. Um it's basically f, you know, trying to get you to change. the way you're thinking about a thing, >> right? >> Uh it might be a group therapy a couple. of times a week over a couple of months. maybe. Um, but specifically in this. case, it's like let's let's try and get.

those negative thoughts about the. upcoming season or the season that is. upon you uh with positive ones and maybe. do things like, hey, I know this is a. thing for me, so I'm going to I'm going. to plan some things specifically for. this winter that I know that I will. enjoy. >> Yeah. Like CBT seeks to break that. feedback loop up, right? So at least. you're not getting worse and worse. because of all the other the cascading. effects it has. >> Yeah, for sure. >> One of the other ones like as that 1984.

study right off the bat um came. identified a really great treatment for. seasonal effective disorder that's. non-farmaceutical. um that you can do at home. As a matter. of fact, you can do it at the library. I. saw that the libraries in Northern. Ireland rent out um light boxes. It's. called bright light therapy. Uses very. intense white light. >> Don't worry, there's a a protective UV. co so you're not blasting your face. You. you're not going to get a tan from it.

essentially, but your retinas are going. to pick up on that white light and so. serotonin is going to increase. your. melatonin is going to not be so high and. it can actually treat especially. moderate um forms of um seasonal. effective disorder. >> Yeah, for sure. Um the idea is you put. this light on, you don't just sit there. and stare at it. Um you just kind of. maybe do it in the morning, 15 minutes. to an hour, maybe 45 minutes or so. Uh.

cast it upon your face. Um this goes Is. that funny? >> Yeah. Uh this goes all the way back. actually to the 1700s. There was an. Italian physician named Vincenzo. >> Chiarui. >> who uh way back then said, "Hey, if. you're depressed, I think sunlight would. help." Uh so it's it's been a thing for. a long time. But now, you know, obviously they still say get out in the. sun if you can, but in a lot of places. where there's limited light in the. winter or just gray days like we were. talking about, uh this is where the the.

BLT, that uh bright light therapy comes. in play. Uh, I saw they also make little. hats, little visors. >> Oh, yeah. >> That just shine down on your face at all. times. >> Nice. Like collective soul said. >> Yeah. I don't think you're supposed to I. think it's supposed to be limited still, though. You're not supposed to have that. light on you at all times because it can. it can disrupt your sleep and cause eye. strain and fatigue and stuff like that, >> right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You don't want to overdo it for. sure. And I think it's different for. each person how much you actually need.

But it does work. Um, I know firsthand. it works because Yumi used to get what I. guess you would call sub syndromeal. >> seasonal effective disorder where she. didn't definitely didn't have major. depression, but it was like she was. impacted noticeably and she found out. about light boxes and got one and it. helped her a lot. >> That's cool. Um, I have friends that use. these things just for uh not even. seasonal, just for, you know, regular. depression and they say it helps them. out. Um, a dawn stimulation is another.

thing and it's kind of the same idea, but it's like one of those uh alarm. clocks that that slowly starts. brightening your room over the course of. like 30 minutes or so as you're waking. up. So, >> uh, again tied into the circadian rhythm. of of rising with the sun's rise. >> Do you remember that um alarm clock from. the 70s and 80s that like it would light. up? It would it had a picture of like I. think like a fence out in the Old West. and the sky would go like dark blue. It. it would like it would change the color.

of the sky on the alarm clock picture um. depending on what time of day it was. You don't remember those? >> No, I don't think I've ever seen those. >> They were amazing. My oldest sister had. one of those. I would love one. >> Uh I don't know what happened to that. It probably broke. >> Yeah, my brother had one of those. clocks. Uh the um alarm clocks that had. the like a rolodex that would flip the. numbers around like mechanically. >> Oh, neat. >> Yeah, those were fun. >> Um yeah, the one I always had was like.

the. kind. >> Oh, man. No, >> really. >> Yeah, when I was a teenager, that's what. I needed. >> Or the two bells with the hammer. >> I had one of those, too. >> Oh, man. >> There was a period where I had the the. one that went wouldn't do it. So, I had. to switch over to the two bells one. >> Oh, god. Have you always had a hard time. waking up like that? >> Yeah. Have Have I? I don't anymore, but. yes, I used to when I was a teenager. >> Well, because I get emails from you at. like 5:30 in the morning. >> Like, what the hell are you doing? You.

farming? >> I've se. I'm milking the cows and emailing at the. same time sometimes. >> Um I have decided that getting up at 5. is way too early for me. So, good. I'm. I'm doing six now. >> Hey, that's reasonable. It is seven. sometimes if I'm feeling frisky. >> You had a really late night the night. before. >> Yeah, I went to bed at 10:00. >> Uh we should mention vitamin D. Speaking. of cows, uh because vitamin D deficiency. does correlate with uh more likelihood.

of having or developing SAD, >> uh but they they haven't found any like. good hard consistent evidence that. vitamin D supplements can help a lot. Um. there there's one place remember you. said that high latitudes um the higher. the latitude the more negative the. attitude. the likelier you are to have seasonal. effective disorder. That does not hold. true at least in some parts some of the. most extremely northern parts of the.

world. In particular is a town called. Trumza Norway that is very northern. It. might be the the most northernmost city. in Norway. It's really high up there. Suffice to say that they um they are. absent from sunlight I think two full. months of out of the year. >> Oh man. >> Like nothing nothing like the sun comes. out. I mean I think it might get as much. as it would get like before um sunrise. on a normal day. >> and they go like that for two months.

And yet the rates of seasonal effective. disorder are much less in traumza that. you than you would expect. >> Yeah, it it seems to be because they've. done just sort of studies and. questionnaires uh and people there uh. agree with statements like I love the. coziness of the winter months. Winter. brings many wonderful seasonal changes. >> They don't agree with winter is boring, winter is limiting. Uh, so it seems to. really be a lot about the attitude and. you know, I think if you live there, a.

lot of people probably don't just move. there. It seems to be a place where. you're usually from. Um, or maybe people. do move to one of the most northernmost. cities in the world. I'm sure it. happens. >> Uh, but generally if you have grown up. in a place and that's the thing, everyone knows that's the thing. And so. there are probably many, many events and. traditions and activities that they do. to thwart that. And it seems to work. because they get into their uh skiing, they get into their winter hiking, they. get into their cozy drinks and their.

warm blankets and their fireplaces and. uh it seems to be that they look forward. to that stuff and it bears out by them. not having a a prevalence of sad there. It's kind of interesting. >> Yeah. And some people point to that as. evidence. They say that um there's no. such thing as sad. That just does not. make sense. If SAD is this um response. to a biological imperative that happens. every year among people who are. maladjusted for that um that imperative. then that's just should not be the way.

in Tumza and there was actually a study. from 2016 from researchers at um Auburn. Montgomery University of Auburn in. Montgomery um and they studied CDC data. and they found no seasonal variations in. depression symptoms and it was a massive. um population that they studied. Uh and. I mean if if there is such a thing as. seasonal effective disorder, then there. should be an increase in the winter. months and they didn't find it. That.

does not seem to be the consensus among. the scientific community. As a matter of. fact, I went to go click on the link in. this Scientific American article that we. were checking out. >> and it exploded. >> It was uh gone. It couldn't find it. >> Oh wow. So, it made me wonder if um they. quietly retracted it or. >> Wow. >> Maybe it was just a broken link. You. never can tell, but for the most part, if you look up seasonal effective. disorder, every reliable um website in.

America like John's Hopkins or Harvard. Health or Cleveland Clinic, um Mayo. Clinic, I could keep going. >> Um they are they all are all all in on. seasonal effective disorder. I'm uh now I'm picturing just like a. couple of scientists in a ditch being. shoveled over with lime, right? Um so just one thing before we stop. It. has nothing to do with Norway really, but it reminded me I saw a um there's a. good true crime um doc I don't know if.

it's a docu drama, but it's based on. real life and it's Danish. >> It's called The Investigation. >> It's so mellow. >> The Investigation. I love those uh I. love stories set in those parts of the. world. I love Danish film making and. Norwegian film making. >> You you'll love it. It's like there's at. least one episode where almost the. entire time nothing happens and they. just show nothing happening. It's it's. but it's really good. It's really. engrossing. So, I would I would.

recommend it. >> Awesome. >> Chuck said awesome. That means he just. triggered the first listener mail of. 2026. Everybody, >> that's right. Hey, this is from Megan in. Michigan. Hey guys, thank you for the. many years of engaging and interesting. content. I first started listening in. 2012 when I moved out of my home state. and would download episodes onto CDs. >> Nice. >> Wow. >> That is Wow. Old. >> Uh, well, this will make you feel old, too. To pass the time on the long drives. in my old Cavi Cavalier.

>> Wow. Wow. >> They don't still make the Cavalere, do. they? >> I don't believe so. No, I think they. buried them with those Auburn Montgomery. researchers. Well, 2012. I'm surprised. she wasn't in the Camry. Uh, I just. listened to your dolls episode, guys. I. had to write in. I have three kids, and. they have at times acted out scenarios. with dolls and toys that would have been. very disturbing if I had not been. prepared that it was very normal and. healthy. Actually, the most recent. example is when my 5-year-old came into. the house and told me that he and his. three-year-old sister had made. gravestones in the backyard because.

their twin baby dolls had died. >> Oh my. Uh even knowing it's normal, I do. have to take a deep breath and remind. myself that part of raising uh. emotionally healthy kids is letting them. process through play. Uh still I was a. bit relieved. The next day they threw a. big party for the baby's first birthday. So she skips out the part where they dug. them up out of they exumed them from the. grave. Uh thanks again for bringing so. many topics and perspectives to light. while somehow keeping things humorous. and upbeat. Looking forward to learning. more in 2026. That is Megan in Michigan.

>> Nice, Megan. Thank you for that. That. was a great great email. And God bless. your kids for being awesome. >> For sure. >> Uh if you want to be like Megan and tell. us about your awesome kids, we love that. kind of thing. You could send it off to. stuffodcast.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iMheart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your.

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