The Rosenbergs | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck, and this is. Stuff You Should Know, the podcast. That's right. Uh, the We Didn't Start. the Fire. edition. Uh, it's funny because I I that. may have been the first time I've heard. about the. Rosenbergs. Uh, Rosenberg's Hbomb, Sugar.

Ray, Panon Jam. What was that last part? I've never known what the heck he was. saying. P A N M U N J O M. One word. Pan. Moonjam. Brando the King and I and the. catcher in the All right, back up. What. is Pamujam? Well, I don't know, buddy. Uh, you'll have to listen to the We. Didn't Start the Fire history podcast. because I was like earlier today, I was. like, "Oh, man. What a great basis for a. history podcast." No. Uh yeah, of course. it was a thing. Uh but you know, it's.

got a shelf life because they I guess. went through all of them uh from 20 2021. to 2023. So was each each lyric its own episode? I don't know. I mean I I would I mean. that's how I would do it because you can. get a lot of mileage out of that song. for sure. That's really cool. Hats off. Yeah. I didn't check it out. Uh but. yeah, I didn't check it out. That's a. man there. Surely they didn't do one. each because there's so many references. and they only ran for two years unless.

it was a daily show. Maybe they just got. bored after like halfway through. They're like, "Forget this." Anyway, this is uh that's Billy Joel's worst. song probably. And this is. uh this is a a podcast about the. Rosenbergs. Well, what was his best. song? And if you don't say Uptown Girl, you're wrong. Probably Miami 2017. I don't even know what that is. I've. seen the lights go out on Broadway. That's a great song. But I'm a Billy. Joel like super. I'm a stand. So, are.

you really? Oh, yeah. You didn't know. that? No, I had no idea. Yeah. Glass. houses was the first record I ever. bought and I've seen him live like a. dozen times. I had no idea. I like it's. kind of cool to listen to Billy Joel. now, but I I suffered many decades of. people making fun of me because I would. like go see a pavement show and then put. on Billy Joel the next day. Man, people. just stink sometimes. Hey, man. You got. I have a variety of tastes. As do you. Yeah, for sure. And people should be.

left alone and not have their tastes. made fun of. Yeah, I'll go to bat for. Billy Joel any day of the week, my. friend. Um, I'll tell you who maybe. should have been left alone, and that's. Ethel Rosenberg. Yeah, I guess we should give a sort of. an overview of this before we dig in. Yeah, fair enough. So, the Rosenbergs, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, were a. married couple. Uh, they lived in New. York City, were from New York City, and. they were convicted of committing.

espionage in 1951 and executed and put. to death. Uh, which was it's this is a. very big deal for a few reasons. One is. because um, a lot of historians. basically say like I don't think Ethel. did this and she was probably innocent. even though Julius did. And a lot of. people say, and even if he did, and she. might have known about it, like. executing these two people with two. young sons when no one else was getting. executed for this at the time was a. travesty of justice. Yeah. And as we'll.

see, they got caught up in cold war. communist hysteria and we're basically. put into a deadly game of chicken. essentially is what what it amounts to. And totally, it's one of those blemishes. on the Department of Justice that's. never really going to go away that they. did this. We'll we'll see. Um, we'll. explain. Uh, but it it's just a sad. story all around. And we want to say. Julius Rosenberg definitely was a spy.

for the Soviet Union, an enthusiastic. one whose spy career spanned more than a. decade. Yeah. Ethel probably was in some. way, shape, or form at least abetting. it, if not some way minorly supporting. it. She may have also played an even. bigger role. But I personally do not. think that both of them were innocent. Some people say that. Um, just based on. the research I've done, it just seems. clear as day that they weren't both. innocent. But to put them both to death,

they were the not the only spies who. were caught and convicted during the. Cold War. They were the only spies. caught and convicted during the Cold War. who were executed and that's what makes. the whole thing so significant. Yeah, for sure. Uh so let's go back and talk a. little bit about their early life. Uh we. can kind of breeze through this first. part. Um but I mentioned they were both. born in New York. Uh Ethel was born. there in. 1915. Um had a few brothers, went to. Seward Park High School. She was big. into theater and this would come up.

because um she loved to sing and dance. and um later on when she started to get. a little political and was going to. union events, she would like perform. sometimes I guess to you know just make. it a little more fun like hey here's. we're at the union meeting and now. here's a song from Ethel I guess at the. time green grass. Yeah, the the. communist blues with a nice little. communist tap dance. Uh Julius was also. born in New York. uh he's a few years. younger, born in 1918.

um to Polish immigrants and he also went. to Seward Park High School, but I don't. think they knew each other there. It. seemed like they met when he was at City. College and she was working as a. secretary. Yeah. And by this time when they met, they had both their interests in in um. communism had definitely blossomed. Yeah. I think Julius is even more than. Ethel's by then. But Ethel, I think, had. participated in a strike and was fired. from her workplace for participating in. a strike. And she was like, "I think I'm.

into workers rights now." Yeah. So, when. they met, it was at a charity um benefit. for the uh International Seaman's. Union. S E A-N. Um and so they were both like, I'm a. communist, you're a communist. let's get. together and and make little communist. babies and do the communist shuffle. Yeah. Yeah. He was definitely more into. it. He joined a group called the uh. Steinmet Society who was an affiliate of. the Young Communist League. Uh, and he.

had a couple of friends that are going. to come up later in a sort of a um. smallalish way, but um just put pins and. the names Morton Soel and Max Elix who. were buddies he made uh while he was. sort of in this affiliated with a young. communist league group society. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they had very similar. ideas to his. Um, and in 1940, uh, did. you say that he trained as an electrical. engineer? That's what he studied. No,

but that's, you're right. Yeah. Um, he, uh, he was hired as an engineer for the. US Army Signal Corps. Um, and when he. was hired, he clapped his hands and. rubbed them together and said, "What can. I steal and pass along his secrets to. the Soviet Union?" essentially. Yeah. Basically, um, he had one minor brush. with the FBI in 1941. uh he was called. into what's called a loyalty meeting, I. guess, to sort of sniff people off the. case uh and see how loyal they were to.

the United States because they found a. couple of mentions of Ethel in the FBI. files. Uh one that she had signed a. petition for a communist city council. candidate and another that was just a. someone who gave a tip that accused her. of having communist leanings, but he was. like, "I'm not even into politics that. much." Which is a lie, right? uh let. alone communism, which was also a lie. And so they pretty much dropped the. case. Uh and in 1942, they moved to the. Lower East Side to the Nickerbacher. Village and started having those uh baby.

communists like you said. Is the. Nickerbacher Village still around? Is. that like a neighborhood in the Lower. East Side? I don't hear it referenced. Uh I mean, I'm sure you could tell where. it was, but I don't I don't know if. there are any. modern references or signage or anything. like that, or I might be wrong, but I've. never seen it. Maybe it's the KBV that. all the cool people in New York talk. about. What is that? Nickerbacher. Village. Oh, gotcha. Okay, so we've we've laid.

the foundation. There's Julius. There's. Ethel. Their kids have come along. They're both very loyal communists, especially as we'll see. Um, and Julius. is big time into spying, and he became a. spy. Um, it's not actually clear how. that happened, to tell you the truth. Um. there's many different accounts. One is. Julius's account, which is that he never. spied and that he was framed by the. government. Yeah, that's demonstrably. untrue. Uh his brother-in-law David's. account, which we'll get into more.

later, but he basically said that um. Julius would like he actually went so. far as to go to the Soviet embassy in. New York and said, "Hey, can I do some. spying for you guys? I'm a big fan.". Like he would he would basically just he. he wanted to spy. he was putting himself. out there. And then there were a couple. of others that are probably likelier. than either of the other two. Yeah. Um, one Soviet agent named Alexander Fexelov. said he was just introduced to another. Soviet agent uh at a Labor Day rally in.

Central Park. His name was Seaman Simov. And then other people said no, it was. another intelligence person. So, we. don't know how he got into it. But um to. set the stage of why he might have done. this, uh it was a time in the 1940s when. the US and the Soviets were allied. against the the Nazis. And there are. historians that say like Julius didn't. think he was betraying the US. He. thought he was fighting fascism when he. sort of started getting into spying for.

the Soviets. I don't know about that, but that's what some people say. Yeah, I. think that's the most polite way you. could put it. Another way to say it is. maybe um being betraying the United. States was just an incidental part of. it. Yeah, that's a good way to say it. But I saw that one of the things he was. well known for is like he hated fascism. so much that he would like like be seen. walking down the street and be like, "I. hate you fascism." And he'd be punching. the air. Yeah. He hated fascism. So that. was one of his big motives for sure.

Yeah. Um and in 1942, so he was hired in. 1940. I guess he laid a little bit of. groundwork for um people trusting him. Uh in. 1942 he started passing weapons. information to the Soviets um and some. pretty big ones too. One of the ones I. saw was a proximity fuse and that is a. tiny radio that is used in anti-aircraft. guns that basically tells the. anti-aircraft gun, okay, that plane is. now in in range to do maximum damage to.

it. Fire. Yeah, that's definitely. something you want to have on your. anti-aircraft gun. And he passed that. along to the Soviets. That was just one. example. And he was he was uh first. handled by Seion Simeonov, who you. mentioned earlier. He got handed off. then to Alexander Fcklov, who you also. mentioned earlier. And so those two's. account of how he got into spying are. probably the likeliest because they were. his spy masters when he was a spy. Yeah,

agreed. Uh, also during this time, and. this is pretty key, he was trying to. recruit other people who had the sort of. same political leanings as him and. recruit them. And one of those people. was the aforementioned uh, brother-in-law. So, this is uh, David. Green Glass, and this is Ethel's uh, Ethel's brother. Um, so in March 1945, he was fired from the Signal Corps. Uh, the FBI said, "Wait a minute. You've got. a a Communist Party membership card. Uh, and it's got your name on it." and he.

was like, "Oh, okay." Uh, so I don't. work there anymore. I'm gonna start my. own business um with Ethel's brothers, uh, David, who I just mentioned, and. Bernie. Uh, and it was called Pit. Machine Products. And that did not go. well. I guess that it just wasn't a good. business. Um, I think David accused um, Julius of being a bad business person. Uh, he accused David of being a bad. foreman. And by 1948, the company was. almost not a company anymore. No, it was. just down to the original investors. I. just made scare quotes. Who were Julius.

and um Ethel's two brothers, David and. Bernie? Right. So, um another big part. of this problem, I guess we should say. what we're describing now is animosity. that kind of grew up. Yeah. Between. David and Julius specifically, um there. was just some tension even though they. still remained in one another's lives, highly involved in one another's lives. Some historians point to this specific. instance of them going into business. together, which is always a bad idea to.

go into business with family across the. board. Okay. Again, we'll go back to my. original motto. Never trust family. Never trust family. Man, you've been. saying that for years. Yeah. Well, Julius Rosenberg would agree with me. So. would Ethel. Um but so David started to. become resentful. Um and there was. animosity throughout this this period. and some people point to that as as the. basis of what came later. Yeah, for. sure. Uh David had borrowed a lot of.

money from Julius without returning it. So the animosity is building. Uh his. wife, David's wife, uh Ruth, so their. sister-in-law, the Rosenberg. sister-in-law, um she in February of. 1950 was lit a fire when her night gown. u brushed up against the heater of her. apartment. She had a lot of. hospitalization and severe burns and. high medical bills and gave birth to a. daughter while she was recovering from. this. So, all this is just to basically. set up like you said that David is um.

he's he's in a pretty bad place in his. life at this time. Yeah. He's going. through a rough patch. Yeah. So, um, we'll talk a little bit more. about what happened, um, because there's. different accounts depending on who you. talk to, but what we do know that. happened next was that they started to. get caught. So, the whole thing kicked. off in February of 1950 when a guy named. Klaus Fuches, who was a physicist, he. was British, um, he was discovered by.

MI6 as being a Soviet spy. And he was a. big-time Soviet spy, apparently. The. spying he did is estimated to have. helped the Soviets. um skip ahead an entire year in their. development of the atomic bomb. Huge, huge, damaging spy. And when he uh was. caught, he implicated others, but he. didn't know others names. He only knew. their code names. And he mentioned. Raymond. Well, the FBI, the US.

government had what are kn now known as. the Venona cables. the the US had. cracked uh secret cables that were. encrypted that the U the USSR had sent. during World War II. And in it, it. talked about a lot of the spies working. for them. And by having these Venona. cables and knowing people's different um. code names, they were able to basically. root out at least a hundred spies using. these cables. And Klaus Fuches was. first. And then after Klaus Fuches was.

Harry Gold who was the Raymond that. Klaus Fuches mentioned in his. confession. Yeah, that's right. So he. was his uh US contact, Fuches's US. contact. And then eventually that. trickled down and gold led them to David. Greenlass, the Rosenberg's uh brother. brother and brother-in-law. Yeah. So, uh, on June 15th, 1950, uh, the feds got. David, uh, Greenlass and they rounded. him up, brought him to, uh, HQ to. question him, and he was like, I'm not.

into espionage at all. Like, deny, deny, deny. Which is, I guess, the the. sensible thing to do. Uh, but then they. said, "No, this guy, Harry Gold, uh, identified a photo of you, and he went, "Okay, you got me. Uh, I am committing. espionage." He was arrested. Uh, and he. said, um, I passed on this this atomic. information, and and we'll get to how he. knew this stuff in a minute. Uh, I. passed it on to Harry Gold in June. 1945. Um, I was initially recruited to. do this by my wife, Ruth. And Ruth was.

recruited by my no good brother-in-law, Julius. Um, key key to all this is that. he never mentioned Ethel being involved. at first. Yeah, that's a big one right. there. Just put that in your pipe and. stick it in your hat, right? Yeah. Um, should we take a break now and talk. about what what came next? Yeah, that's. a good cliffhanger. Okay, we'll be right. back.

[Music]. So the feds have David Greenlass now who. is one degree removed from the. Rosenbergs and he's already implicated. Julius but not Ethel. So the FBI goes to.

start talking to Julius. Uh they. questioned him in June of. 1950 and uh I guess basically the day. after they started talking to David. Greenglass's brother-in-law. Yeah. Pretty quick. Yeah. And they didn't have. enough on Julius to bust him yet. They. they knew enough because again remember. they had the Venona cables and all of. these people are mentioned in the Venona. cables. They had basically figured out. who was who. But the Venona cables were. so sensitive and so highly classified.

The FBI, the Department of Justice could. not use them in court. Oh yeah. So they. could only use them as a background. information and then they had to extract. these confessions and piece together. like as if those things didn't exist. So. they knew everything, but they had to. basically get David Greenlass and then. later his wife Ruth to talk. Yeah. Which. they did over the course of a month or. so. They started talking to Ruth. uh. kept talking to David and about yeah. like one month later July 17th they said. all right we got enough we're going to.

arrest Julius and then a little less. than a month later on August 11th uh. after Ethel participated in the the. grand jury hearing for her husband she. was also arrested and they were both. charged uh with conspiracy to commit. espionage uh and that was under the. Espionage Act of 1917. Yeah. Yeah. For. some reason, going and being just a part. of a grand jury trial and then getting. arrested right after I I can't compare. it to anything, but it just seems almost.

mean. Like there should be a break in. between. Like you think you're going in. and you're going to be fine and then. bam, you get arrested on the like as. you're walking out. It just just mean. That's like the when they invited. everyone to the football game, the. criminals. Yeah, that was a good one. Operation what was that? Uh, was it Men? No, that was that was the. one where they created the corpse that. um they threw overboard in World War II. to fool the Nazis. Yeah, that inspired a. Broadway show. But I think maybe a.

Broadway show should be inspired by the. the Redskins football game. I agree. And. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Yeah. Or at least a Simpsons episode. I'm surprised that hasn't happened yet. No, it did. Remember we talked about it. where they had the free boat giveaway? That's why I said wink wink. Oh, gotcha. I I didn't know you were winking at me. You're like, I thought you were just. flirting. Right. Uh, all right. So, we. should tell the story. Uh, and this is. the official story according to the. Department of Justice on how this all. went down. So, we're just going to kind. of tell it that way to begin with. Yeah.

Uh, I mentioned David Greenlass had uh, atomic secrets and how he got those was. he was in the army in 1943 and he was. transferred to Los Alamos in August of. 1944 and was around the work uh, of the. Manhattan project all of a sudden. Yeah. He was rubbing elbows with Oppenheimer. Yeah. So that was August of 1944 when he. started working on the atomic bomb. project. A few months later, Ruth came. to visit David and his wife. Yes. Ruth,

his wife Ruth. So, um, by this time when. she came to visit her husband, um, in. Albuquerque, she had actually been. recruited as a spy by at least Julius. Rosenberg. And she essentially went to. Albuquerque to convince her husband to. become a spy. All all these like both. couples were very much into the Soviet. Union, very much into communism. Um, so. they have very similar views. This. wasn't like didn't take a lot of. persuading from what I understand. And.

she basically said, "Hey, Julius figured. out probably his Soviet handlers told. him that you're working on an the atomic. bomb project. So, he wants you to tell. me everything you know about it and then. I'm going to take it back to him. Then. he's going to pass it on to the USSR and. uh our glorious leader, Joseph Stalin.". That's right. uh January of 1945, David. went back to New York on furlow and just. a couple of days after he got back um. Julius came around, knocked on the door.

of his apartment and he said, "Hey, what. else? What what else you got for me on. this atomic bomb?" He said, "Write it. all down. Anything you can think of. that's useful, I'll pick it up. tomorrow." Uh his wife, David's wife, Ruth, was like, "His handwriting is. terrible. You're not going to be able to. read this." And Julia said, according to. the DOJ, said, "Not a problem. Ethel, did I mention she was a secretary? She. can type like the wind. She'll type. everything up so it's nice and neat and. orderly, and we'll all be a working. family together in this espionage. project. All attention will dissolve.

after we start spying together. Yeah. In. that same uh furlow visit in January. 1945, um David and Ruth have dinner with the. Rosenbergs and they're actually. introduced to a Soviet operative named. Anne Cid. Sedorovich. And the a a really. interesting plan is hatched here that. ultimately leads to the downfall of. David Greenlass. Uh Julia says, "Hey, Anne is going to be your contact now. She's going to come visit you in. Albuquerque. By the way, um Ruth, why.

don't you move to Albuquerque to be with. your husband and you guys can spy more. effectively together?" Yeah. But when. Anne comes to visit, you just give her. all the information and she will give it. to me. Um, we should say there were. people like Anne, like Harry Gold. Their. entire job was to act as couriers. And. the reason why is because the Soviets. rightly assumed that the the feds were. following all of their operatives in the. United States. So, they couldn't. possibly use an operative to connect two.

spies. They had to use a third spy to. work as a courier. That's what Anne was. doing. But somebody said, "What if what. if Anne like is indisposed? What if she, you know, gets a stomach bug and is just. pooping everywhere? Or what if what if. she falls in love and runs off and gets. married and forgets all about the USSR? And Julius said, "I I've got a great. idea. A plan B, if you will." And that. is where the phrase plan B was coined.

Are you messing with me? Okay. Yeah. So, uh, one small detail. here is that Anne was in Denver. So Ruth. would get the information from David in. Albuquerque, then visit Anne in Denver. to pass this along, right? And if Anne. had that stomach bug, this was the. brilliant plan that Julius came up with. He he said, "Hand me that jello box over. there, raspberry." And they were like, "We've already uh we've already had. dessert. Why do you want this jello. box?" He ripped the jello box uh open. and took one of the cardboard pieces and.

he ripped that in half, handed Ruth one. and said, "I'm going to give this other. half to uh someone with a secret. identity that you don't know yet. That's. our plan B person. So, if you show up to. Denver, Anna's not there, and somebody. shows up with this jello box half that. I'm holding and showing you, remember, it's going to match. You can put it. together like a locket." Yeah. uh that. that will be the confirmation of their. identity, which is so low-fi. It's. actually kind of brilliant. It is. brilliant. And I think that jello box,

those two pieces are in a a spy museum. somewhere. They got it and rightfully. so. Um but uh it actually came into play. because Ann did get indisposed in some. way that I hadn't figured out. Um and. Harry Gold who again one of his his only. job was as serving as a courier. He. showed up in New Mexico on David and. Ruth's doorstep and said, "Hey, uh, Julia sent me, I'm a spy." And uh, they. said, "You got the uh, the password, you.

got the code, you got the I don't know. what would you call an object that. serves as a password key?" They they. probably said, "Do you have the rip. piece of jello box?" Right. Or or they. said, "I am the key master. Are you the. gatekeeper?" Goer. Sure. So, um, he. said, "Yes, I I am the key master. Check. this out." And he produced the half of. the jello box. And Ruth, what a moment. Yeah. Ruth or I I think it was one of. the other Ruth or David um produced the. other half and they put it together and.

they said, "Let's let's rap, brother.". So, uh, he's now the guy. Uh, David. writes up as much as he knows at that. point, uh, you know, the extra stuff. about the bomb that he, you know, since. the last meeting. And also like here's. some other people that you know they're. always trying to recruit people uh. within Los Alamos and elsewhere. And. Gold said great, thanks a lot. Here's. 500 bucks. Uh which is interesting. because they I mean these they weren't. doing it for money, right? Was this just. a bit of a bonus for being a good.

soldier? I think so. I don't I don't. know. Not chump change back then, nor. now. No, I mean they were definitely. true believers in in communism and. fighting fascism. So maybe it was just a. little a len yap. All right. So they. gave him 500 bucks. Uh September of 1945. he went back to New York. David did on. another furlow. And here he provided. information right to Julius's face. Uh. said here's some more notes. I even drew. a sketch of the atomic bomb. Julius is.

like this isn't very good. And he said. no trust me it looks basically like. that. and he uh he claims that Ethel. typed up the notes and then Julius. burned those notes in a frying pan, gave. David 200 bucks for his troubles and. that's uh where we find ourselves. Yeah. When I saw that frying pan detail, I was. like, "God, how long did they have to. heat those up to get them to catch. fire?" And then I realized how they were. using the frying pan as like basically a. fireplace. Yeah, I got it now. But it.

took me a couple days. That that'd be. very funny in the movie though. It's. just like just another 45 minutes. What's the flash point for jello boxes, right? Uh so are we are we at another. stopping point? Uh yeah, let's do it. Okay, we're going to stop everybody as. we just hash. [Music].

down. All. [Music]. right, we're back to the contemporaneous. present. uh when everyone had been. arrested basically uh right out of the. gate, David and Ruth, uh the husband and. wife team, the green glasses, hired an. attorney named O John uh Rogue or Rag or. Raji, I don't know how you pronounce.

that. R O G G- E. And um so they had a. pretty good attorney uh and he said, "Hey, here's what you got to do. Let me. ask you this question first. How much do. you like your sister and her husband?". Mhm. He said, "Because what we should. really do if you want to get out of this. is we should blame the Rosenbergs, and. if you can make a case against them, then they're probably going to let you. off pretty light." And he was right on. the money with that line of thinking. Yeah. And and the Green Glasses said, "Sure, why not?" Uh, I have a pet theory. that if David uh and Ethel had been.

closer in age, she was seven years older. than him. He may not have betrayed her. quite as easily. But seven years is a. pretty decent amount of distance between. you and an older sister. And I think. that makes the betrayal all the all the. easier. My sister's six years older and. I would totally sell her out. There you. go. So my pet my pet theory is correct. That's right. Uh so um they this led to. basically a different account. Uh some.

people may say it was an account that. shifted. Other people might say no David. just basically lied about Ethel's. involvement. Yeah. Uh and you might be. wondering like well what's what's the. rumpus here? Like they had Julius dead. to rights. Like why did they need to get. Ethel involved? This is because they. were living in a time of the Jay. Edgar. Hoover, FBI, and prosecutors like Roy. Conn who basically were like, "Hey, if. you want to get uh Julius, you got to. get his wife involved and and use her as. as uh leverage basically." Yeah. And the.

other thing too is even though they had. Julius dead rights, he was not. cooperating in any way, shape, or form. He maintained his innocence until the. very end. Um and they wanted more spies. They wanted to flip him and get more and. more and more people. Yeah. So, they. used Ethel, like you said, as leverage, and they ended up picking her up based. on the Green Glass's testimony. Remember, when David Greenlass's first. um uh first question, he does not.

mention Ethel. He mentions Ruth, his own. wife, he mentions his brother-in-law, Julius. He does not say Ethel was part. of the spy ring. Now, all of a sudden, he is saying she definitely was. And. then even more damning before like the. um Department of Justice came and said. like, "Hey, why don't you do just a. touch of perjury to help our case out um. he gave the grand jury testimony, the. same grand jury that Ethel was arrested. right after rather unfairly." Um and he.

said point blank Ethel was not involved. in this. Yeah. And we know all this is. true because in 2001, David Greenlass. said, "Yeah, I lied about my sister cuz. I wanted to save my own wife." Yeah. I. he lied during the trial. He perjured. himself. He admitted it. Um so not only. did he perjure himself, he perjured. himself to implicate his sister, which a. lot of people think she was basically. innocent, if not fully innocent. Um so. that's a really hard thing to swallow, but we're still not done with the DOJ.

and what they did here. Yeah, for sure. Uh Julius and Ethel were tried together. along with uh Julius's college classmate. that I mentioned at the beginning that. had said to put a pin in, Morton Soel. You can take that pin out now. So the. three of them were being tried and if. David and Ruth hired uh you know an. attorney that um had a pretty great idea. to blame it on the Rosenbergs. They did. not hire well because they hired Emanuel. uh Manny Block and I think that was. Julius's attorney. They had separate. attorneys and Ethel was his father.

Alexander. And neither one of these. people were criminal attorneys at all. No. Alexander um specialized in um. facilitating the sale of. bakeries. I don't get it. I don't. understand why they hired them. I didn't. see I don't know. There there had to be. some connection. I I doubt if they just. yellow paged that, you know. Yeah. I. maybe they were trying to help their. careers. I don't know. But it was. Somebody probably knows. I bet someone. will let us know. Yeah. So, uh, the. prosecution had a bunch of federal. prosecutors led by Irving Sapal, who.

time called the nation's number one. legal hunter of top communists. Not who. you want prosecuting you if you are a. spy for the Soviets. Uh, and then um the. judge was also not the judge you wanted. to draw. His name was Irving Kaufman and. he was known for hating communists and. he used his bench to essentially punish. them as harshly as he possibly could. He. was the kind of judge who would actually. add 10 years onto whatever sentence the.

DOJ was asking for in in trials of. communist spies. He was that kind of. judge and that's who they drew. You know. it be funny as if who let us know about. the uh connection to those attorneys was. uh Billy Joel. What if he sent us an. email said I know this guys and attached. you'll find an additional verse that I. cooked up for you. Oh my god. To we. didn't start the fire where I explain. about the bakery guys. Yeah. And he'd be. like P.S. What's this with my worst song. crap Chuck? Oh man, I can't believe I.

said that out loud. I have to edit that. out. What I meant to say was there is no. bad Billy Joel song. That was perfect. There you go. We'll just clip that out. and put it over what you said. originally. No, I'm gonna leave it in. I'm gonna stand by it. Hey, listen. It. was a big hit. Billy, if you're. listening, I love almost everything you. ever did, but you can't win them all. That's a great lesson to learn, Billy. Joel. Really is. Uh, okay. So, one thing we.

should point out, uh, getting back on. track here about this trial and the. prosecution, which hated communists, the. jury of 12, uh, had one black man, one. white woman, and, uh, no Jewish members on the jury. Uh, the other were 10 white Christian men, uh, who all were in favor of the death. penalty. Yeah. which you know in their. defense like you can't be on a capital. jury if you are in favor of the death. penalty but still it was not the kind of.

position that you would want to find. yourself in like this is I never thought. about that I guess that's true huh yeah. I think we talked about it in the jury. episode I'm pretty sure that's that's. where I got it from which means it could. be wrong but um yeah well if you if you. were against a death penalty you just. gum up the works they don't want you in. there exactly exactly. um so uh they're they're in a pickle I I. guess is what you want to call it. And. they're still like, "This is all wrong. We're just we're maintaining our. innocence." Uh, and the prosecution. said, "Oh, yeah. We'll sit there while.

we trot out a bunch of witnesses against. you guys." They brought Max Illar, who. was um a classmate with Morton Soil and. Julius, remember? Yeah. Uh, Ruth's. brother-in-law, um, Lewis Ael, and I. guess that was from I guess she had a. sister. I didn't see that anywhere. uh. George Burnernhard who was Julius's. doctor, Harry Gold, the the courier the. for the Soviets and Elizabeth Bentley. who was also a former spy and each one. had quite a story to tell. Yeah. And if.

you're wondering like why did they get. Julius's doctor there? Uh it's because. he testified that uh Julius had inquired. about um going to Mexico and like what. inoculations do I need to get if I go to. Mexico like very suddenly? And the. prosecution was like, "Hey," and I just. made up the very suddenly part, but the. prosecution basically took it that way. and was like, "Hey, this is evidence. He. was gonna he was gonna flee. He was. going to go to Mexico. Get that doctor. in here." Right. Um, so let's see. Elizabeth Bentley, the former spy. She. said, "I saw him or somebody who looked.

like him once talking to Jacob Golos, who was a known Soviet operative and the. head of the Communist Party of the USA. in Nickerbacher Village, the. KBV, no less, in 1942. That's a little. thin. Some of the other ones were a. little more damning, too. Yeah. By the. way, I know I sounded very dumb earlier. when you said KBV right after. Nickerbucker Village and I didn't pick. up on that. In my defense, I thought it. would have been KV because Nickerbucker. is one word. That's what confused me.

Yes. But people like to like No, I'm I. agree. I'm just letting everyone know. I'm not a 100% I'm just 50%. No one thinks you're a or. even 50% of a You should read the. internet. Uh people there's plenty of people who. don't like me either. Oh, no. People. can't take that personally. There are. people that hate us. No, I don't. I. don't read that stuff. Okay. Again, they. can soak their heads. That's That's. right. Kick sand. Touch grass. All those.

things. Um so like I So like I said, touch grass. You ever heard that? No. Is. that like you they've been knocked down? No. I think touch grass is a more modern. thing like when people are just social. media fighting someone will say touch. grass like you know get off the computer. go outside. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I. think that's what that weirdly I came. across it for the first time within the. last couple weeks and I promptly forgot. it. Yeah. Well, you know what they. should say? Smoke grass, right? Quit. internet fighting. Go smoke some weed. Yeah. Uh so what about Max Ear?

Uh who was that? Oh, he was the former. roommate, I think. Uh, and he came out. in testimony against him too, right? Yeah. He said, um, Julius tried to. recruit me as a spy. Yeah, that's right. Not good. Um, Lewis Abel, Ruth's. brother-in-law, said, "Hey, I got some. money from Ruth and David, and if you. know David, that is weird." So, I asked. him where they got it, and he said. Julius gave it to them, and I suspect. for spying. And and Manny Block stood up.

and said, "Objection." And the judge. said, "Overruled. Yukami. Yukami lover. Yeah. His dad's. over there rolling some biscuits out. Right. Oh, I'm glad you said that cuz I. have to get this out there. I don't know. where it came from. Uhhuh. But it will. not leave my head. That Sir Mix a Lot. Buttermilk Biscuit song. It's just I. don't know that song. Parts of it are. You don't? No. And I love Sir Mixot. I. just I don't know the song. It's a weird. like novelty song that he had like very.

early on. And surely from not like the. rest of his serious work. Exactly. It's. even more novel than his later stuff. Yeah. Oh man. Seattle's O Zone. What a. legend. I didn't know he's from Seattle. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz when uh they did the Do. you remember the Judgment Night movie. and that amazing soundtrack? I remember. the movie. Well, the movie wasn't great, but the soundtrack was great because. they paired rock bands with the hip-hop. artists because that was a big thing. Yeah. and uh Sir Mixalot and Mudhoney. were paired because they were.

Seattleites and their song was awesome. Nice. Remember Body Count with Ice Tea? Oh yeah, I saw them at the first La. Palooa. Nice. That was when Ice Tea was. still making music and wasn't like uh he. was on that he's on that cop show. forever now, right? Yeah. I mean, this. is a rapper who had a song called Cop. Killer. Yeah. and he plays a cop and. apparently he's gone through some like. metamorphosis in the eyes of uh police. and people who support police. I bet. from hating him to being like, "Hey,

he's actually kind of a good guy cuz he. plays a cop on TV." So, well, it's. really interesting. No, I remember at. the time, boy, he was persona nonrada. for uh law enforcement for sure. And Icy. didn't care. He's like, "Just watch. I'll be back." In the most surprising. way you can possibly imagine. They as. literal iced tea. He's like, "Well, not. that surprising, right?" The second most. surprising thing you mean you play a cop. on a TV show? He said, "Yep, bingo.". That's what he was known to say. Bingo.

Oh, man. We're getting really. sidetracked. This is a fun one. Uh, who. knew the Rosenbergs are going to bring. this out. I did not know. So, it was a. three-week trial in all. Uh, like you. said, they till the end said they were. not guilty. The trial concluded in March. of 1951. Uh, guilty all three. defendants. um sentenced uh the third. guy, Morton Soel, to 30 years in prison, sentenced the Rosenbergs to death, saying their crime was worse than murder. and that their work uh caused the. communist aggression in Korea. So, they.

were really taking the fall for a lot. here. Uh there were a lot of um uh. appeals that were launched by Manny. Block and company um petitioning the. Supreme Court delayed things by a couple. of years. All of those failed. Uh but he. did launch a pretty successful media. campaign uh that got a lot of people. very interested in the Rosenberg's. sentence. Yeah, he he finally got a. newspaper to agree to look into the. case. It was the National Guardian um a.

very left-wing um paper and they. investigated it and produced a very. sympathetic what I take to be long form. article on the Rosenberg's case and that. that article created a bunch of other. press which spread further and further. really drummed up public sympathy to the. point where they were holding vigils. where a thousand people would show up in. cities around the world in support of. them. uh and people thought like this is. not this is not right. Pablo Picasso,

Albert Einstein, the Pope, they all said. like the these people should not be um. executed. Certainly not Ethel should be. executed. And um the judge is like I I. don't I can't hear you. He had his. fingers in his ear was like la. Yeah. And there are historians that say. like this all just sort of organically. came about because of this press. Uh the. DOJ of course was like no no no no. The. Communist Party of the United States and. the Communist Party overall launched a. propaganda campaign on behalf of the.

Rosenbergs. Uh so you know it's a bit of. a he said she said or they said they. said in this case, right? But here's the. deal on the execution. Uh you said it. was a game of chicken early on and I'm. sure people that noticed that uh that. mention were like what is Josh talking. about a game of chicken? And this is. what you were talking about was the idea. was even Herbert Hoover did not want to. execute them. Mh. And it was all uh a. ploy to try up until the last moment. even there were supposedly uh people on.

the on the walk to the electric trailer. that were like still going to change. your mind because you don't have to die. right now if you want to give up some. names. Yeah. Yeah. The so the the. execution was essentially leverage just. like they used Ethel. They they. railroaded Ethel into a conviction to. use as leverage against Julius to get. him to flip on other spies. They used. the the death sentence in the exact same. way. And they expected one or both of. them to be like, "Okay, okay, okay, that's fine. Let's not. We got two young. kids at home. Let's all just cool off.

We'll give you some names and some. information." And Ethel Rosenberg and. Julius Rosenberg did not do that. And in. fact, there was the head um I think he. was a deputy uh attorney general at the. time who said Eth Ethel Rosenberg called. our bluff. So rather than one party, the. DOJ or the Rosenbergs veering off at the. last second, they crashed headon and. Ethel Rosenberg and Julius Rosenberg. were put to death even though. essentially no one thought that was the.

right thing to do. Uh and that's how. they went down. Yeah. And I I mean, didn't you find too that Hoover even. himself got in touch with the judge and. was like, "Hey, listen. We don't want. you to in install the death penalty. here." And the judge was had his fingers. in his ear. Yeah. The FBI took an. official stance that um the that Ethel. in particular should not be uh executed. That was the official stance of the FBI. and it still happened anyway. Um it. wasn't a good look. I mean, they were.

worried about the optics for sure of uh. especially because they were Jewish and. uh you know, coming off the heels of. World War II and they're like, "They've. got two young kids. You cannot execute. this woman." Mhm. Yeah. And even more. so, Manny Block, remember, he was like. an appeal machine. He had one last Hail. Mary appeal. That was on his that was on. the the billboard on the highway. Yeah. Ex Exactly. With somebody holding a. check for a million dollars that he got. for them for their bakery. Uhhuh. Um, so.

he he filed one last appeal and he. basically said, "Dude, you're going to. execute two Jewish people at the. beginning of the Sabbath. Do you know. how bad that's going to upset the Jewish. community. worldwide?" And Judge Kaufman, who was. Jewish himself, said, "You know, I. hadn't really thought of that." And. Manny Block's like, "Great. So, let's. postpone this indefinitely." And and um. Judge Kaufman said, "No, no, no. We're. just going to move it three hours. earlier before the Sabbath starts. Yeah.

They were put to death at 8:00 PM. Man, that judge was a real sob. Uh they held a funeral in Brooklyn on. June 21st, 1953 where 10,000 people uh. reportedly attended. Uh they were. buried, finally accepted after some. closer cemetery said no, at the Wellwood. Jewish Cemetery in Long Island. And the boys, it's just still hard to. believe they didn't not that one of them. didn't, you know, for the sake of being. a parent to their kids, didn't recant, but they didn't. Uh, and those boys,

Robert and Michael, were adopted by an. and, uh, Abel, uh, Miracle. Um, little. interesting side note here, uh, Abel. wrote the song Strange Fruit, which Have. you ever heard the Susie and the. Banshees version of that? Oh, no. But, uh, but that's great. Yeah, it's really. good. That's how I first heard that. song. Another reference to the first La. Palooa even. Who knew? Wow. That's. really something. Uh, wow. I know, right? Did not expect that. Billy Joel. is spinning in his uh piano stool right.

now. He's like, I know I should have. accepted that offer. I know. Uh, Michael. was uh got a PhD in economics and Robert. Rosenberg became an attorney. And both. of them, they've dedicated their lives. to trying to clear their parents' names. Finally, after years and years and. years, they admitted like, okay, dad was. a spy. but not mom. Yeah. Uh and you. said that they were criticized by some. people for for basically choosing. loyalty to Joseph Stalin over their two. children and leaving them behind. And um. David Greenlass again who lied to and.

got his sister and brother-in-law. killed. I said they were stupid. He said. that was a really stupid thing for them. to do to not accept some sort of bargain. to take the the death penalty off the. table. That's his opinion on the whole. thing. Wow. That's what I said, too. Yeah. Uh, and. oh, I should say real quick, the reason. that the brothers, the sons, um, finally. were like, "Okay, dad was a spy." was. because those Venona cables we talked.

about earlier. Yeah. Uh, they were. finally released starting in the '9s. And it showed quite clearly that um, Julius was a very enthusiastic spy for. the Soviet Union. And probably um Ethel. definitely knew about it, but she may. have been involved in recruiting Ruth. And if she did that, she was definitely. a spy. But again, that doesn't change. most people's um thoughts that they. probably should not have been executed. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Because I mean, that's a that's a whole different uh.

argument, you know? It's like maybe they. were guilty, but uh you should not have. put them to death. That's what a lot of. people seem to think. Yeah. I mean, including people from their own spiring. Didn't even come close to the death. sentence. It was just specifically. leverage that just never got taken away. because the government wasn't about to. be like, "Oh, okay. You got us. All. right. We won't kill you." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't do that. Just crazy. Uh. boy, this was a fun one. And there was a. lot of jokes. I hope it didn't come. across as insensitive. Uh I mean, that's. kind of what we do here. So, not be.

insensitive, but just I'm glad you, you. know, kind of make jokes about stuff. Yeah. If you can't laugh about. everything, then what can you laugh at? Nothing. Exactly. Uh, actually, I don't. know if that's exactly true, but still. since Chuck said, "Exactly." That's not. to examine that one. Exactly. It's. listener mail time. That's right. Uh, this is about uh we. heard from a lot of our Canadian. friends. Uh, we love it when Canada.

points out something that they know that. we don't. And in this case, it's about. Cooh's Notes. Uh, great episode about. the Cliff's Notes, guys. The name rings. a bell to me, probably through American. Movies and TV. Uh, but as a millennial. Canadian, I'm far more familiar with. Cooh's Notes. Cole was a legendary uh, bookstore across Canada. And so, every. location had a stand of Cooh's Notes. booklets focused on books and plays. covering uh, covered in the Canadian. school curriculum. I even remember. reading them in school alongside. Shakespeare plays to understand them. better. Yes, they were often used to.

cram before a test without reading the. material. They're also used as Cole. intended. Uh, Chapters/Inindigo is the big Canadian. book retailer now, and they bought out. the Kohl's locations, but they still. print and sell Kohl's notes today. Uh, so that guy did all right in the. Canadian market. Thanks for making me a. little smarter each week. And that is. from Natalie uh, GDormson. Guttormson, great name from Alberta, Canada. Thanks. a lot, Natalie. Thanks for making us a. little smarter this week. We appreciate.

it big time. Yeah. Uh, and if you want. to be like Natalie and tell us something. we didn't know, we love that kind of. thing. You can send it off to. stuffodcast@. [Music]. iheartradio.com. Stuff you should know. is a production of iheartradio. For more. podcasts, iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart. Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. you listen to your favorite shows. [Music].