The Mystery of the Sleepy Sickness | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck. And Jerry's. here, too. And this is a good. oldfashioned stuff you should know. medical mystery episode. That's right. Look at Jerry over there. She's just. sitting there. She's frozen. And what. you can do is, I don't know if you know. this, Josh. If you walk over to Jerry.

and take her hand off the keyboard and. raise it above her head, >> she'll just keep it there until you move. it back down. >> Well, Chuck, it sounds a lot to me like. Jerry might have chronic encphilitic. lethargica. >> I think you might be right. >> I might be right. I might be partially. right. I think I would have been more. right if I had called it encphilitis. lethargica, but that's probably what she has if. those are her symptoms. >> That's right. uh file this under medical. mysteries and also file it under uh a.

Julia jam. >> But uh we're basically going to call it. EL or encphilitis lethargica here and. there. That was also known as the the. sleepy sickness. Um sometimes the. sleeping sickness, although there's a. new sleeping sickness that is not to be. confused with the previous one. >> No, it's spread by the tetsifly and it's. a epidemic. I don't think it's endemic. yet in Africa. Um, and it is got a. couple of similar symptoms, but they're. in no way related from what I.

understand. >> That's right. We're talking about an. outbreak that happened in the early 20th. century in Europe uh starting in about. 1916. wherein all of a sudden people would uh. kind of out of nowhere um they would. lose mobility. Um some people would fall. into like a coma-like state or a. sleep-like state. uh many many people. would die within days and it reached. epidemic proportions in um at least four. continents by 1919 killed hundreds of. thousands of people and it's a medical.

mystery because we still don't know. exactly why it happened or why it just. kind of suddenly went away. >> Yeah. Where it came from, what caused. it, nothing. We don't know almost. anything about it. They just kind of. know the symptoms enough that when you. see the very very very rare case come. along these days, you can say I think. this actually is encphilitis lethargica. And there was something you said about. people being struck into like a coma or. sleeplike state. The the people who are.

struck with encphilitis lethargica, they. weren't like laying there like Sleeping. Beauty on their backs with like their. hands crossed over their chest. Like it. was like you were saying like they might. have their hand in the air and their. mouth open and like a silent scream and. their eyes were open and they just. weren't moving at all and they were just. sitting like that. That's the kind of. like horrible symptom that you could. suffer from for decades. Like once that. started it might just keep going on for. the rest of your life even though this. happened to you in childhood.

>> Yeah. Exactly. So, uh, and there's a bit. of a a reveal that we're going to hang. on to here, but we're gonna start off. with not a reveal because that's not how. you do things in the three-act. structure. >> Not in the not in the podcast biz. >> No, no, no. Uh, we're going to start out. in 1916 uh with a Dr. Constantin von. Is. it economo or econom? >> I like the first one. >> That's like saying is it economy or. economy?

This sounds to me like a um a Cosmo. Kramer alias. >> Why don't you just tell me the name of. the movie you want to see. >> I'll never not laugh at that bit. >> No, it's a good one. >> Oh boy. Uh so he was a doctor um at the. University of Vienna's psychiatric. neurological clinic and he started. seeing some some strange cases come. through his office in 1916 where the. symptoms were um you know they had. diagnoses on the charts things like.

menitis or MS or delirium but the. symptoms weren't matching these things. or anything else that he could think of. >> Yeah. And the first thing he did was. ruled out uh neurological toxins uh. infections and neurological disorders. and then was like, "All right, I'm I'm. open here. Let's like no one knows what. this is and we need to figure it out. So, let's sort of put our minds to this. thing.". >> Yeah. He dove in. Um he started. describing it. He wasn't actually the. first one to describe it. I think he was. actually beaten by a couple of days,

even though some people say it was the. opposite way around, by a French. physician named Dr. Renee Crusett. Um. the difference was Dr. Crusett's take. was that this was a maybe a behavioral. disorder. >> and um Dr. Economo Vonamo said no this. is like clearly some sort of infection. or something like that. It's an. epidemic. It's transmissible. So that's. why this is sometimes called Vonomo um. encphilitis. >> It was essentially named after because. he was the guy who said this is what's.

going on. This is what I think's going. on. Check out these nutso symptoms. >> Right. uh not so not so at first because. when people would come in at first they. had basically looked like the flu um you. know fever um coughing you know kind of. what you would think of everyone's had. the flu right. >> I don't have to I don't have to. >> yeah there you go that's. >> I watched Zoolander recently. >> you know a picture is worth a thousand. words a Josh impression of the flu was. worth at least 20 of my words. >> all right thanks.

>> was that part of uh Zoolander did he. >> yeah he had the black lung. when he went back home to mine coal with. his dad. >> Oh, I love that dumb movie. >> Yeah, it's a really great dumb movie. I. I was like, this is pretty great still. >> Um, all right. So, flu-l like symptoms. at first, then um just a a huge array of. neurological symptoms that were really. inconsistent among the patients. Uh, the. severity of which was pretty um. inconsistent. Sometimes it varied wildly. from one to another. But one of the most.

common threads of these neurological. symptoms was uh something called hyper. somnolence which is just really really. sleepy. Um like feeling really sleepy. and then eventually it could lead to. that coma like state where you're just. sort of locked in. >> So here's the thing I so the sleep the. type of sleep though that is that like. common among people struck with. encphilitis lethargica is not what you. would consider sleep. They're not. getting rest. You can wake them very.

easily. >> Um, they are probably semi-aware of what. was going on around them the whole time. they were sleeping, >> but they they couldn't not fall asleep. Another thing that sometimes gets. chocked up under this hyper somnolence. is freezing midaction. Like maybe. they're taking a bite of broccoli. >> That's a that's a bad example because. they probably are like, I can't make. myself eat this broccoli. It's so. disgusting. But let's say they're eating. like a delicious animal cracker and they. stopped mid bite.

>> They're they might not move again. >> Um or they might like hear a song or. something like that and all of a sudden. they start eating the the um the animal. cracker again. >> Yeah. >> It's not The point is you It's called. the sleeping sickness. It's not sleep as. you would understand it. >> Yeah. Yeah. That that's good to clear. that up. >> Thanks. >> Uh because sleeping sickness sounds. pretty good to me right about now. >> It kind of does. Uh half of these cases. uh it was a pretty wide age range. About. half of them were in people aged 10 to.

30. Um like I said a lot of the patients. died. Sometimes they died within like a. week or two after onset of symptoms. >> Uh there was one case of a girl who was. uh walking home from a concert uh. suddenly experienced a paralysis, fell. asleep within about a half hour and died. less than two weeks later. There was also some weird stuff as we'll. see um that had to do with psychiatric. system symptoms where sometimes people. would be fine after you know suffering. from this for a couple of weeks but they.

will their personality would have. changed. Um there was one report of I. guess a study found four reports of. people who developed kleptomania after. having suffered this and then ostensibly. were cured from it. So, like it could. really mess with your head essentially. in just about any way your head can be. messed with. >> Uh, did Winona Ryder claim that? What. was her Remember when she was stealing. stuff? >> Oh, yeah. I remember. It was a. >> So weird. >> It was a big deal.

>> She came back pretty strong, which I'm. glad I like Winona Ryder. She does a. great job in Stranger Things. >> Oh, she's awesome in everything she's. ever been in. Heather's dude is one of. the all-time great movies. She was great. in Mermaids and then Yeah. all the way. through to Beetlejuice. I I'm not going. to say Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice, but. definitely Beetlejuice. And then. Stranger Things. Sure. >> Yeah. And a and a a great uh crush of. much of Gen X. >> for sure. >> Both dudes and chicks. >> You got that straight. We're talking.

>> dudes and chicks. >> Gen X says that. >> Yeah, they do. Uh all right. So, Von. Economo was uh studying all these. people. He was studying corpses of these. people. um he he finally breaks it down into its. u subgroups. Uh the first of which is. acute eel. Uh that is the initial. sickness that you're going to get. We. talked about the the fluy kind of stuff. that you get and all these um. neurological symptoms that are going to. follow. Uh then he broke those down into. three forms from most common to least.

common. Uh starting with the most common. uh somnolent opthalmic. How would you say that? Opthalmologic. >> Opthalmopoplegic. That's what I'm going with. >> All right. Uh that's the most deadly. form. Uh more than half the patients die. when they have this form. Um this is. really overwhelming sleepiness, but like. you said, you're aware, you're easy to. wake up. >> Um the the optimal part is ocular. paralysis. So you have you're not moving.

your eyes. So uh if people come and they. wave their hand in front of your face, your eyes aren't moving or anything like. that. Uh and also those neurossychiatric. symptoms that you were talking about um. like delirium sometimes uh confusion, catatonia, stuper, stuff like that. >> There was also the worst report that I. saw and like I didn't see anything like. this, but I checked and it does seem to. have been a case report of a girl from. the 30s who um basically had a psychotic. break because of it. And she pulled out. all of her own teeth and gouged out both.

of her eyes. A little girl did because. of this. And again, it's just some weird. outlier symptom, but as you see, we get. further and further into this, it's just. the brain getting eaten up somehow. someway in some fairly predictable. region. So, it's creating this whole. cascade or galaxy of different symptoms. that are just the worst things that can. happen to your brain happening. >> Yeah. Uh the the next subgroup, the next. least common or I guess the next most.

common uh depending on which way you're. looking at it is hyperinetic. Uh that is. uh mania basically is the big part of. this one. You have a manic phase. >> um involuntary vocalizations and and. kind of herkyjerky movements. And then a. hypomomanic phase where there's a lot of. fatigue, a lot of weakness. Um you can. hallucinate. You can have nerve pain in. your limbs and in your face. And uh this. is one of the the odder symptoms is your. sleep pattern will flip uh from day to. night or I guess night to day if you.

were a factory worker or something. >> Mhm. And there's another thing with that. sleeping sickness part. You know like. the your sleep is messed up. I also saw. Chuck that in at least one of these. people might also be super sleepy but. not be able to fall asleep no matter how. hard they try. uh. >> which sounds worse to me than most of. the other stuff. >> for sure. >> There's a third one that he said is the. least common, but it's also a way that. it can present. It's called um amostatic.

ainetic, which is um you can't move ais. And this is kind of what the the classic. idea of what encphilitis lethargica. looks like where you're just you're just. sitting there with like yeah your right. arm's in the air, your left arm's. a little further down, your mouth's. open, you're you're basically a statue. essentially is how it's described. um. you're frozen in place and you're not. going to move until somebody maybe puts.

some slight pressure on your arm and. then maybe you'll move it down. But it's. not like they're just going to put. pressure on your arm for a second and. then you move your arm down. Like they. have to move your arm down. And this is. what's called um waxy flexibility. You. can pose somebody in this state any way. that that you want them to. So, you have. to be very kind uh when you're dealing. with patients like this. >> Yeah. I could not help but think that. Waxy Flexibility sounds like an album.

title. >> for sure. >> Like Guided by Voices or somebody. >> Um Lips Inc. >> Is that a real band? >> Yeah, they're Funky Town people. >> Oh. Oh. Oh, okay. Yeah. W Oh, waxy. flexibility. Sure. >> Nailed it. >> Guided by voices. What was I thinking? This is the the biggest part to me. that's I guess part of all of this. because of the sleeping part. The people. suffering this including the people who. are are wax figures frozen in place for.

years or decades potentially. are there mentally. They're not like. locked in as in locked in syndrome where. they know every single thing that's. going on around them at all times, >> right? But they're essentially in the. same boat where they're aware of stuff. They're aware of thing time passing. They're aware of people coming and going. and interacting with them. They cannot. respond. They can't speak. They can't. change their position of their eyes.

They can't focus their attention. They. can't do anything that would suggest to. anyone. >> that they are there in any way, shape, or form. And it wasn't until a a genuine. medical miracle took place that we. understood, oh my god, these people have. been there in their heads the whole. time. They're not just like comeomaos, like just completely out of. consciousness. They're conscious. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Uh, and you know, earlier I said like they're locked in. I. didn't mean the literal locked in.

syndrome. I just meant sort of, you. know, look like they're locked in. So. clear. >> I didn't take it like that. >> Yeah. But I think people might have. So, you know. Well, come on, guys. >> Uh, we don't know how many cases there. were. It was a legitimate pandemic, though. Um, it's one of those things. that was hard to diagnose. Um, they. think it was underdiagnosed and. reported. Um, estimates run from 500,000. to more than a million. Um, but they. think that maybe half of the cases. weren't even reported, so who knows how. many it could have been. >> Uhhuh. >> Uh, and about a third of them died. A.

third survived and were kind of okay. and then a third um survived and then. got it again later on. Um and that is. acute eel. So maybe we should take a. break and talk about chronic eel after. this. >> Let's. >> All right, we'll be right back. [Music].

Okay, Chuck. So, a lot of the stuff I. was talking about about people being. frozen in place as if they were statues, they had waxy flexibility, mutism, ketonia, they weren't able to respond or. move or anything. Um when I said for. like years or decades.

more accurately I would have been. referring to the chronic form of uh. encphilitis lethargica because it was. essentially it seems to me kind of like. amostatic ainetic but for years and. years. Mhm. >> The scariest part about all this was. that you had gone through the standard. case of encphilitis lethargica, one of. those three um that we just talked. about, and got better. You may have. died. You may have um gotten better, but.

maybe you had like behavior changes like. you turned into a kleptomaniac or. something like that. or you got better. and thought everything was fine, but. then you suddenly suffered from being. just a ton of bricks being dropped on. you and all of a sudden you can't move. for the rest of your life, even though. it's been 10 years since you had that. case of encphilitis lethargica. >> Yeah, for sure. Um the the chronic is. much the same as the earlier but with a. few added symptoms, one of which is very.

very strange. Um you can have mood. swings, pretty pretty normal. uh. feelings of euphoria and maybe even an. increased libido, which is not the. weirdest thing. Uh psychosis in about. 30% of patients. Again, not the the most. abnormal thing in the world. Uh but. excessive silliness and the use of puns. was a actual symptom that they saw over. and over again in acute cases. >> Yeah. Isn't that bizarre? >> Or not acute in uh chronic cases, >> right? Yep. >> Yeah. But again, the defining trait, the one.

that people would point to and be like, "Oh, that person has chronic encphilitis. lethargica is that statue thing that I. was talking about, and that's more um uh. clinically called rather than that. statue thing." Doctors tend to call it. postphilatic parkinsonism. And Parkinsonism is one of those um. difficult things to grasp until you just. stop trying to think too hard about it. It's essentially a bunch of movement and. neurological symptoms and dysfunctions. And Parkinson's includes Parkinsonism,

but not all Parkinsonism is Parkinson's. disease. >> That's right. >> Okay. It took me way longer than I care. to admit to finally just nail that down. and stop running in circles trying to. figure it out. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think they even one. of the reasons they call it um post. encphilytic parkinsonis parkinsonianism. parkinsonism gez that's a tough one. >> or pep is to distinguish it from. parkinson's which isn't exactly the same.

thing. >> yeah and one of the big things that. distinguish it because a lot that shares. a lot of symptoms but one of the things. that distinguishes postphilic. parkinsonism and parkinson's disease is. that Parkinson's disease progresses. gradually in a predictable pattern. Postphilatic Parkinsonism, like I said, it can come out of the blue. You could. be again sitting there eating an animal. cracker and all of a sudden you never. finish eating that animal cracker for. the rest of your life. It it just can. suddenly come out of nowhere and you're.

just living your normal life and then. all of a sudden you're in an institution. and you're bound never to move again. unless you happen to be in the right. place at the right time in the late. 1960s. >> That's right. And this is the big. reveal. Uh if you are hearing these. symptoms and you think, "Hey, that. sounds awfully familiar. I think I saw a. movie about that." Then you are correct. Uh this is the the movie from the book. Awakenings uh based on neurologist. Oliver Sachs uh book of the same name. >> um about his work with EL patients in.

the 1960s. I think there were 80 chronic. EL patients he worked with at uh Beth. Abraham Hospital in the Bronx, New York. in 19 uh 66. uh when this came around. and Oliver Sax was in there um e eel had. had gone away. Basically, it was a. medical footnote and not a lot of people. in the 1960s even knew much about it cuz. it was one of those things that like. they never figured out what it was or. how it started or how to cure it or. anything. It kind of just went away. So, every all the doctors were like, "All. right, thank God. I guess we don't have.

to worry about that anymore.". >> Right. Exactly. >> And they just moved on to their other. work. Um there was a 1985 NPR interview. where he was talking about u um motion, this is a quote, motionless figures who. were transfixed in strange postures, sometimes rather dramatic postures, sometimes not with an absolute absence. of motion without any hint of motion. So. everything looked frozen and that was. you know Robert Dairo's character in the. movie Awakenings. >> Yeah. And all the others that he. eventually grabbed together.

>> Yeah. >> Uh and assembled. When was the last time. you saw Awakenings? Uh, it's been a. while. I think I remember thinking it. was a pretty good movie back then, though. >> It's a great movie. >> Yeah, >> I watched it um last night. >> Who directed that? Do you know? >> Leverne. >> Oh, was that Penny Marshall? >> Yeah, she did a great job. It was great. I mean, like I don't remember if Dairo. got an Oscar or not, but if you didn't, that's a the one of the all-time great. snubs. >> Yeah, >> he did amazing. >> I forgot how wonderful Robin Williams. is, too. Just Man, what a great guy that.

dude was. >> Great dude. Great movie, too. >> Watching a thing with him this morning. and very very sad stuff. >> What were you watching? >> Uh, it was an Instagram post of him with. his mother and uh his mother making him. laugh and I I think the whole point of. the post was like you rarely got to hear. Robin Williams like genuine laugh. >> And I heard it and I was like, "Yeah, I. don't know if I really ever heard that.". And his mom made him laugh that hard. It. was really sweet. >> Can you do an impression? >> It was kind of a haha thing. No, >> I mean not like that, but it was.

exuberant, but it was like haha. Not. like my my goofy childish laugh. >> I got you. >> Um, yeah. So, good movie. And it was. 100% based on this. So much so that it. it's funny they they went to the trouble. of changing the names of the changed. names that Oliver Sachs had in the book. >> Wow. >> So, yes, Awakenings actually is pretty. faithful in in a lot of ways. I mean, there's a lot of like movie stuff, literary license in there, but for the.

most part, it's pretty faithful to. Oliver Sach's book. And again, it's. non-fiction. Like Sax is a neurologist, or he was a great neurologist and a. great writer, too. So, he didn't take a. lot of literary license, as far as I. understand. So, >> the movie being close to the book means. the movie was fairly close to real life. And one of the tests that Oliver Sex. conducted was um he would demonstrate. that these people were were had. demonstrated what's called paradoxical. where somebody who seemingly can't move.

and hasn't moved for days, months, however long it was since the last time. somebody moved them. >> um could suddenly move in a way that. they just should not be able to. And the. way that he demonstrates it in the. movie, and I believe in the book he did. this too, was he would toss them a ball. >> and all of a sudden somebody who's just. sitting there with their hands in the. air and their face frozen in this mask, this expressionless mask, just suddenly. moves their hand without even moving. their eyes and catches the ball. And.

that was I think um again at least in. the movie, I haven't read the book, how. he um identified people in this what. they call the chronic hospital that he. worked at in the Bronx um by by finding. somebody who kind of fit these these. symptoms and then tossing a ball at. them. And there's a very cute funny part. where he does it to one person and she. gets hit in the face and is like, "Ow, why'd you do that?" She clearly didn't. have um encphilitis lethargic. It's. pretty cute. Uh, it sounded a couple of.

minutes ago like you said Oliver Sex. >> I know and I didn't correct myself. You're a all-time great conversation. analyst though for noticing that. >> Well, I just I mean that's a different. movie altogether. >> Oliver Sex. >> Yeah. Also called Awakening. So. >> God, was that a couple minutes ago? I've. been Have I been talking that much? >> Oh, I have no sense of time. It might. have been 10 seconds. >> That was amazing, Chuck. You've been. killing it with the jokes lately. >> Oh, thanks. Uh, one of the things you. mentioned there is like like they could. catch a ball or something. Another thing.

that would happen like uh he said that. if there was an emergency like another. patient falls on the floor all of a. sudden somebody who like previously has. not moved for days or weeks or months uh. might just leap up out of their. wheelchair and assist them and then sit. back down and go back to their statue. pose. And that phenomenon that you're. talking about is that's the big key. difference between uh PEP and. Parkinson's disease uh is called kinesia. paradoxical where you're switching you. know between mobility and immobility and.

that is not something that happens. generally in Parkinson's. >> No but I saw that it does some so yeah. but I think for the most part it's more. associated with chronic encphilitis. lethargica. Right. >> Yeah. So this original thing this where. this disease this mysterious disease in. encphilitis lethargica suddenly appeared. out of nowhere in 1915 16 ravaged the. world for 10 years and then just. vanished and like you said let a whole. generation of neurologists off the hook.

for having to explain what it was. Um. like they they really tried like people. like Von Economo really tried to figure. this out. I think 9,000 papers were. written during this epidemic. >> Yeah. >> Um and there were some things that they. kind of were able to to pin down, but. the big big questions were just left. unanswered. Like we just don't know. Like one of the big ones is how do you. even catch this terrible disease?

>> Yeah. Like is it contagious or not? They. still didn't have a definitive answer at. the end of their their study on that. Um. evidence on transmission was really. really mixed. Um there were a couple of. anecdotal cases that kind of illustrate. that. Uh one of them there was uh among. seven members of a family in a small. apartment only one family member got. sick. Another case there was a girl. living at uh something called the Derby. and Dervisher Rescue and Training Home. Um showed signs of EL and then very soon.

within two weeks 12 of the 21 residents. got sick. So you know both cases like. one looks clearly contagious. The other. one doesn't look like it's at all. contagious. So, they didn't know. Maybe. they thought some people might be. immune. Maybe there were different. strains that were contagious or had. different levels of contagiousness. Um, or maybe it's just something that they. never figured out. >> Yeah. And I was wondering too if the the. 12 of the 21 residents getting sick at. that one home was maybe just a case of. mass hysteria or something like that. >> Interesting. Yeah. >> Um, no. I think half of the people who.

got sick died within 10 days of falling. ill. So, they were not. >> that was not mass hysteria. Um, so that. is just a genuine mystery, right? Like. this just doesn't make any kind of sense. whatsoever. Um, they so they started. trying to rule out things they thought. it wasn't, right? >> Um, one was environmental causes. So. that would make it toxic in sephilitis. And I don't even know if we said at the. outset, did did you I think that. encphilitis is swelling of the brain and. spinal cord. >> Oh, no. Okay. I didn't say that. So, I'm.

sure everybody got like a pretty good. idea that encphilitis is something bad. that you don't want to have, right? >> But what it is is a condition where your. brain andor your spinal cord swells. >> and it can start taking on water and. from doing that all sorts of terrible. things can happen. The thing is is. encphilitis is not just specific to. encphilitis lethargica. A lot of. different things can make your brain and. central nervous system swell. A. disturbing amount of things can make. that happen actually if you stop and.

think about it. And one of those things. is environmental toxins. So that's toxic. encphilitis. And that um got ruled out. very quickly because there just was no. pattern whatsoever where everybody was. exposed to, you know, um. like a a tesseract made of kryptonite or. something like that for our our nerd. fans. >> Yeah, that's good. I tried to toss you. guys bone and just screwed it up. royally. So, I'm sorry. >> I think I may have just conflated.

>> DC and Marvel and. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Marvel dead, dude. >> No, I love it. >> I love it, man. You should meld those. Superman meets uh Thanos. >> Sure. >> I want to see those dudes fight. >> Oh, that'd be great. I'm I'm sure that. would be a really interesting fight to. watch. Somebody's going to write in and. say, "Actually, guys, it happened in. 1987 when uh you know, >> some dude put out a comic.". >> I suspect that those people aren't going.

to speak to us any longer. >> I think you're right. Uh so, like you. said, they ruled that out. Uh the to the. toxic exposure. Uh then they moved on to. an infectious kind of possibility. uh. infectious encphilitis in fact and that. can be uh se you know in infectious. encphilitis is a thing. Um so it's not. like we think it's that that was already. a thing. It can be secondary to. bacterial or fungal or viral or. parasitic infection. It's usually a.

virus. >> Uh it's the most common type of. encphilitis. Uh it could be like from. the herpes virus or maybe measles or um. West Nile even influenza. And. considering how this went on during the. Spanish flu initially uh which happened. in 1918 and there were flu-l like. symptoms they thought that you know this. probably early on at least was an. influenzaleled. infectious encphilitis. >> Yeah. And that was I think Vonamo's.

leading theory which makes a lot of. sense because they tracked with one. another like you said at least the. start. Um, so was this just some. horrible strain of Spanish flu that. managed to continue on for years after. Spanish flu? Um, and I think that was uh. incontrovertibly proven incorrect. because um actually in when I did the. end of the world, I talked about this. guy who went up and dug up the corpse of. an Inuit woman who had died from Spanish. flu to get enough of the genome of it to.

bring the Spanish flu back to life to. study it. It's one of the most. breathtakingly arrogant moments in all. of science for somebody to do that. But. the reason we know that encphilitis. lethargica wasn't caused by the Spanish. flu is because we had the Spanish flu. genome and we couldn't find any Spanish. flu RNA in um like collections of tissue. samples of brains of people who. definitely died from encphilitis. lethargica. Spanish flu wasn't there. Ergo, it wasn't Spanish flu. Uh, and.

because Josh is always too humble to say. so after an end of the world reference, everyone, if you don't know, Josh had a. great solo album. Uh, a eight part or 10. part. >> Uh, it was a 10-part subtitled waxy. flexibility. uh the end of the world with Josh Clark. uh where and he u one episode at a time. examined 10. >> um. uh I can't think of the word existential. uh risks that could face humanity some.

of which are currently underway. >> Thanks a lot Chuck. I appreciate that. That was really nice of you. >> That's very great. You got you got to be. a smarty pants but I even if you're not. a smarty pants you should still give it. a shot I think because I I gave it a. shot and I'm not a smarty pants. >> Hey you are a smarty pants but yeah. smarty pants or no. I think everybody. can be equally scared by this. >> Yeah, you did live shows, too. So, if. you have a time machine on your hands, go back and see one of those while. you're at it. >> And come talk to us if you have an. actual working time machine as well. That'd be pretty neat. >> Uh, streptocoakal infection was another.

uh possibility. At one point, um there. was some data that showed infection with. streptoco bacteria um was in front of. some of these cases of EL. And in 1931, our old pal Dr. Vervon uh Economo uh did. an experiment and streptococcus. vaccination uh actually led to uh e an. e-l like condition in dogs. >> Yeah, which is sad but. >> yeah. >> Yeah. The thing is the thing that makes. it even more sad is it wasn't.

definitive. They weren't like oh it's a. strep infection, right? >> It was like I guess it could have been. Um there was another group called the. Mat Commission that studied um. encphilitis lethargica because a guy. ostensibly by the last name of Mat. I. couldn't find who it was. >> Yeah. >> He was a wealthy businessman from. America who had been struck down by. encphilitis lethargica. I believe he had. gotten better but not fully. >> Um and so he used some money to try to. get to the bottom of this and funded.

this commission for 13 years. They put. out four different reports and basically. at the end said maybe herpes. We don't. know. And he said, "Your findings cut. off. I've gotten into Sherlock Holmes. societies. That's who I'm funding now.". >> At the end of all that dough for that. many years, you come back with maybe. herpes. Are you kidding me? >> At the very least, give me herpes, too. That reminds me when I was a kid, I'll. never forget one of the first headlines. that ever sunk in with me because I was.

a who's the boss fan a little bit at the. time. >> Okay, >> it was it had to be the Inquirer. something, but it was Tony Danza gave me. herpes. And I looked like just yesterday to see. if Tony Danza actually had ever given. anyone herpes and he it does not seem to. be the case. I don't believe Tony Danza. has herpes. So that that headline was. totally made up. And I hope Tony Danza. got some money from that for suing the. Inquirer. >> Yeah. Oh, we should issue that. correction, too. You got that Tony Danza.

uh band name wrong. >> Oh, I did. >> In the metal episodes. >> What do you know what the correct one. was? >> Well, what do you what did you call it? >> I think I called it the Tony Danza tap. dance experience. Is that not it? >> I think if that's what you said, I think. it was tap dance extravaganza. >> Oh, okay. >> Or it's the other way around. Whichever. one you said was wrong. >> That's fine. I can live with that. >> Yeah. Yeah. We had a few metal people. write in about that. So, can't, you. know, can't not correct the Tony dance. adapt dance extravaganza. >> I bet they were nice though, like to a.

person pretty much all the the metal. fans that wrote in said, even the ones. correcting us were like that was great. >> Yeah, that's the metal way. >> It is. >> Uh, all right. Shall we take our other. break? >> Uh, um, [Music]. yeah, sure. >> All right. We'll be right back. >> Wait.

[Music]. All right. So, we mentioned some people. studying, you know, different causes. back in the day. Uh, they never could. find anything out, like we said, and for. about 30 years, they just kind of left. it there. And it was in the late 1960s. when, uh, neurology researchers that.

were working on Parkinson's. uh, really hit on it when they. developed, um, L-dopa or Levodopa, which. is a substitute for dopamine, which is. the missing neurotransmitter, >> and Parkinson's disease. And it was. released in 1967 and it brought aetic. Parkinson's disease patients back to. life. And if you've seen the movie. Awakenings, that's basically a big. storyline that that's where it picks up. is when Oliver Saxs uh scores some. L-dopa.

>> He did off a guy selling it on the. corner below Beth Abraham Hospital. >> Exactly. >> Um Yeah. So he finally starts with. Leonard Low, who's Robert Dairo. uh not. the patient's real name obviously, but. um there's just this amazing. transformation where all of a sudden. these people again who are these frozen. statue like people and have been for. decades of their lives suddenly like are. like aware and talking and like focusing. their attention on you and one guy's.

playing the piano and they're like going. out on field trips now. It's like they. were just completely brought out of it. And that's supposedly was um very much. the case with people with actual. Parkinson's disease like they responded. beautifully to L-dopa. But one of the. reasons, one of the indicators that um. postphilatic Parkinsonism and. Parkinson's disease are different is. that um the people in awakenings, the. people with encphilitis, lethargica, they responded well for a little while.

and then they started to show other. symptoms that really kind of. >> for some of them it basically meant you. can't take L-dopa anymore. And. incredibly sadly, like one of the most. sad things I can think of, >> they were left to just go back to their. frozen statue state again. >> And don't forget, there is a great level. of consciousness within them when. they're in this state. So, they came out. of that state in which they were. conscious, came to full consciousness.

and full interactivity, and maybe even. left the hospital on a field trip and. then had to go back to their frozen. statue state again, conscious of this. whole experience. Yeah, very. heartbreaking to see in that movie. Um, there was one case of a woman who uh is. this the rose of which you spoke of uh. to me privately? >> Yes, that was Rose and then Lucy was her. name in the movie for some reason. >> Okay. Well, this woman um just one of. the cases uh of Oliver Sachs, she she.

came out of it and she basically. described like being aware of everything. that was happening for decades and. understanding what was happening but. just not feeling a connection to it, like there was this weird disconnect. Um. she she knew about Pearl Harbor. She. described knowing about the. assassination of Kennedy, uh John F, that is. And she said that it just. didn't seem real. She said, "Nothing has. seemed real since 1926 when I got the. encphilitis and came to a stop. I know. I'm 64 now and that this is 1969 and.

that I'm an elderly woman in a bizarre. situation in a chronic hospital, but I. feel like I'm 21 and I feel like it's. 1926.". >> Yeah, >> man. Can you imagine? >> Yeah. And very sadly, she was one of the. ones who did not like have her symptoms. with L-dopa were too extreme to continue. on taking L-dopa. >> Yeah. And some people, you know, came. out and were just overjoyed and elated. with this kind of thing, obviously. And. some people came out and obviously you.

could also see had a very hard time with. lost decades. Um it it could not have. been an easy thing to accept either way. Um the movie there is good news. Uh. there's a bit of a silver lining because. the movie does not cover the fact that. after this a lot of the patients finally. regulated with the L-dopa and were able. to leave at least lead compared to sort. of their previous life um a somewhat. healthy life like they weren't in that.

statues locked in state. Uh they might. not have fully recovered but they they. led an okay life. >> right? Yeah. And they do mention that at. the end um in one of those. >> I guess epilogs. Yeah. Postcripts where. they talk about how they continued on. experimenting and some people it kind of. worked out with a little bit. So, but. they don't they don't show it in the. movie. The movie is all sad at the end. >> It's so sad. >> Um and yeah. Oh my god. Just go watch. Awakenings again. >> I even watched I accidentally watched.

Patch Adams first and I wanted to watch. Awakening so bad. I still watched it. after Patch Adams after Zoolander and. then I finally watched Awakenings. I was. up till like 4:00 in the morning today. last night. >> I never uh I never saw Patch Adams. >> Oh, it's not good. >> That was Sachs, too, though, right? And. then. >> No, it was just Robin Williams, too. It. was It was no Awakenings. I'll tell you. that. >> Um, yeah, I need to check that out. It's. funny. I met a guy named Leonard Low one. time years ago, >> and the only thing I could think in my.

head was, "My name is Leonard Low.". >> Like, I just remember Dairo saying that. >> Did you didn't say that to him? No, because I figured, you know, like. our our listener, Robert Pollson, he's. probably tired of those jokes. >> I never stop saying that to Robert. Pollson. I can't help myself. >> Uh, so what about these days? What do we. think about EL medically speaking? Well, so one of the things that we did learn. that we still don't fully understand but. was something that they recognized with. L-dopa um and the study of the patients.

before they were administered L-dopa is. that. >> while you're in a like this frozen state. like like I said earlier somebody like. throws a ball at you or like you said. somebody sees an emergency they can. suddenly move like normal and then they. go back to that frozen state afterward. They found that it's not just like an. emergency like a ball coming at you or. your friend laying on the floor because. they fell down, but things like music, human touch, um even like obnoxious. sounds like a siren or something can.

basically prompt the person to start. moving again. >> and like come back out of that frozen um. ketonia or mutism. Uh-huh. >> And um that was one of the things that. they found uh people could do on L-dopa. too. Like even with the extreme like. tremors or inability to to control the. movement of your mouth or eyes, those. could be tamed by the same things by. stimulating your brain in some other. way. And there was the story of a guy. who was a a cobbler by trade before he.

had gotten sick. Oh yeah. And the the um. after Elda came along, he asked for like. a cobbler's bench and the hospital staff. got him one. And when he was working at. his cobbler's bench, he was able to like. hold like nails in his teeth and like. nail the heel of the shoe with these. little tiny nails and just work and. control the symptoms because there's. something in the brain that was. overriding the symptoms. We have no idea. why. We just know that that was part of. this whole thing. there's some some way. that the the these the problematic.

symptoms can be overridden by some other. region of the brain. >> taking importance or precedence over. that which is just bizarre like from. start to finish this is one of the most. bizarre diseases in history. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. >> Did you also watch Tremors by accident? >> No, that would have been very pleasant. That's one of my favorite movies. >> All of a sudden the sun's coming up and. you still haven't seen Awakenings, >> right? So getting back to the modern.

perspectives and what we think medically. these days. Uh in the last 75 years like. I said it completely in a way they kind. of don't know. In the last 75 years. there's only been about 80 case reports. where it looks like it might be EL. Uh. they call it like an EL like. presentation. Um you know the the hypers. somnolence maybe ocular paralysis maybe. some of those neuroscsychiatric. symptoms. uh but they're really not sure. because the you know the cases are. pretty varied and the symptoms are. pretty varied and again they you know.

all they have is sort of these case. studies from before they never landed on. anything so it's hard to tell if this is. still going on at all or not uh there's. no like effective treatment um you know. they still use L-dopa I think right. isn't that still in the scene. >> yeah so for the tremors and rigidity and. stuff like that sometimes ect for if you. have like pretty extreme psychiatric um. symptoms. Um but for Vonamo's. um work, he got uh he never won, but he.

was nominated three times for a Nobel. Prize. Pretty good. >> Yeah, for sure. And remember, he also. originally suspected that it was some. sort of infection. Yeah. >> He thought Spanish flu wasn't Spanish. flu, >> but um they do think that it's probable. now that it is the result of an. autoimmune disorder triggered by an. infection. >> Yeah. So what that would amount to is. that you are infected by maybe it is. strep, maybe it is herpes, maybe it is. influenza, we don't know, but something.

that resembles proteins found in. different regions of your brain. um trains your body to attack those. proteins in your brain. So you it. triggers an autoimmune disorder and. those proteins are only found on. specific regions of the brain that when. you step back and look at what those. regions do, they control the symptoms. that you see in people with encphilitis. lethargica, >> right? >> I just sounded like Tim Curry in Rocky. Horror Picture Show. That's.

>> get on the slab. >> Oh, that was good. I forgot how good. your impression is of Dr. Frankenfer. Oh, well, you know, I met the man. He. held my cat. >> Oh, that's right. He said your cat was. naughty, right? >> I said he had dramatic ears. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> But also naughty. >> Yeah. Yeah. Naughty. Get on the slab, Lauron. >> I got nothing else. >> Oh, okay. Um, let's see. I guess I got. nothing else either. That's it. We don't. we don't know the answer to all of this.

and I don't know when we ever will. But. it's just it's so fascinating that you. have to stop and remind yourself like. this actually happened to people and. that then you realize how terrifying. >> the whole thing really is. >> Yeah. >> Well, Chuck said yeah twice within 7. seconds which automatically means oh. well now he derailed it. You have to say. yeah one more time. Hurry. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Now we're back on to listener. mail.

Uh this is uh you're going to like this. one, Josh, I think. Hey guys, this is. about the Atrax. Uh I always learned. something from you, sometimes. unexpectedly, you guys. In the Atra. short stuff, you talked about cart being. short for cartridge. It sparked a. memory. >> I'm from Buffalo, you see, and I used to. listen to a radio announcer called Iron. Mike Benson. He famously had what he. called, and uh Jamie says uh sorry to. you specifically, Josh, about this. Okay. >> Where Mike Iron Mike Benson would say uh.

that he had the heinous anus fart cart. and he would use it to play various fart. sounds and strategically place them over. top of over the top of whatever songs. happen to be getting played on the air. at the moment. I always imagined the. word cart at the time was referring to. like a basket on wheels that contained a. bunch of separate tapes. >> Yeah. >> Of fart sounds. Now it all makes sense. It was a tape recording, but because it. was a looped tape with multiple tracks. on it, he could cue whatever selection. he wanted much quicker than you could. with a linear cassette tape. So, it was.

the analog way to do that sort of thing. before a digital soundboard was used and. invented. Uh, thank you for all the. useless interest grabbing uh. information. Uh, and useless is in. quotes, by the way. >> Okay. >> Um, that is only useless until you can. relate it to something else. podcasts. have come and gone, but your show is the. one I haven't gotten tired of, and my. sister Ashley agrees. Keep it up, boys. That is Jamie Lynn Bear. >> Awesome. Thank you, Jamie Lynn. And. thank you to your sister, Ashley, who.

ostensibly listens as well. And the. whole bear clan. How about that? >> Yeah. The the clan at the cave bear. >> I thought that as well. >> Yeah. Uh if you want to be like the clan. of the cave bear and write in to let us. know how much you like our show and or. uh we triggered some memory in you that. helped you put things together and or. whatever else you want to say. We love. that kind of thing, you can send it to. us via email at stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com.

>> Stuff you should know is a production of. iheartradio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].