The Murder of John Lennon | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too uh and this is Stu you should know. the solemn. Edition yeah pretty. solemn yeah it's a solemn occasion to. this episode is coming out on the. anniversary of John Lennon's death and.

not coincidentally because we're. actually doing an episode on the death. of John Lennon So it's. appropriate uh it's actually the day. before his death if we being nitpicky. close enough I was very close Chuck yeah. and I'm not one to commemorate death. dates. especially uh murder dates but I did. want to do this episode and since I saw. it aligned I thought you know if we can. get this out quicker then uh maybe it's. timely I don't know.

yeah had you decided you wanted to do. this before we did um JD Salinger or did. it all just kind of work out like that I. think it just worked out like that like. the two were completely unrelated in my. mind such that when you suggested we put. them both out on the same week I was. like why nice well they're related the. two are related for sure yeah absolutely. so um let's talk about this um I knew. about the death of John Lenin some but. certainly not to the degree I do now um.

I like for example I knew he was 40 I. knew he was shot I knew he died in front. of his apartment building the Dakota. which we've talked about before I knew a. few other things but certainly not the. details and I didn't know much about the. guy who killed him that either yeah well. let's tell everybody what we've learned. huh yeah I remember this happening. Believe It or Not wow uh because I was. but.

uh I guess in I would have. been nine when's my birthday March yes. so yeah you would have been nine yeah I. would have been nine years old and I. remember just like you know I I didn't. weirdly I grew up in a house that didn't. have a lot of music in it except for my. room and my brother's room MH uh so it. wasn't like the Beatles were a household. name or anything like most kids of my. age who had parents who may or may not. have been into the Beatles my parents. didn't tell me anything about the. Beatles right but I knew there were a.

thing and I knew like John lenen is the. guy with the round. glasses uh because I was just a kid and. I remember it being like big news and I. was like oh that that singer guy that. wor of those round glasses was killed. that's sad yeah it was really big news. as we'll see I mean it's still big news. today but at the time it was just Earth. shattering for sure uh thanks to Livia. for the help with this one and I guess. we should start with talking a little. bit about John lenen and his uh.

love affair with New York City yeah I'm. not sure when he moved to New York City. I just know that they moved to the. Dakota he and Yoko in 1973 when did they. move to New York you know not I don't. know if the bank Street Apartment was. the first One MH but they moved to Bank. Street in 71 so that may have been their. first New York place I know they lived. at sort of partially lived in one of the. hotels there for a while right.

uh but they lived at this very. nondescript house at 105 Bank Street in. the West Village uh and then for a. couple of years but they one of the. reasons they moved is because they were. robbed uh like in the apartment and. people busted in former tenants. apparently and stole some artwork and. the TV and Lennon's wallet and his. address book and supposedly he put the. word out on the street that Bobby Seal's. people are going to exact Revenge if I. don't get that address book back.

oh yeah like the Black Panthers yeah I I. don't know if he had a legit connection. I mean he seems like the kind of guy. that would have known the Black Panthers. and Bobby seal uhhuh uh but it was. enough to where that address book was in. fact returned uh and I guess that was. enough to where they were like hey uh. Yoko I'm one of the most famous people. in the world maybe we should move to a a. building that's a little more secure I. mean that's why they moved to the Dakota. is that had a a security guard it had a. doorman um there was a driveway that was.

gated so you could drive in through the. gate and they Clos the gate behind you. and then you got out of your car in the. courtyard so you didn't have to get out. on the street it was much much safer but. saying that I've read interviews with. John lenon where he talks about his life. in Manhattan and like he would walk. around Central Park he would go get. breakfast like down the street he was. just a like living like a normal New. Yorker and he said that people would. like say hi or whatever but rarely would. anybody ever bug him so he was Liv he.

was super super famous but at the same. time he was just living like a normal. person by this time yeah I think that's. one of the allures of New York is you. can be one of the most famous people in. the world and generally like New Yorkers. themselves aren't the ones that are. going to bug you anyway it's it's any. tourist probably right you know yeah uh. but otherwise you can kind of live in. New York and walk around and just do. your thing and that's what they did when. they bought five apartments at the. Dakota M uh they lived in a couple of. them.

they had a studio one which was yoko's. work studio and they had a guest. apartment very nice thing to have and. then a storage apartment yeah and um. they also had Shawn Lenin in. 1975 um and this this whole era from. about that time until his death uh has a. couple of different portrayals depending. on who you ask yeah a lot of times it's. portrayed as John Lennon's house husband. era um he he reputedly would bake bread.

and he would take Shawn to go walk in. Central Park and just just being like a. stay-at-home dad he turned his business. Affairs over to Yoko and just basically. was like I'm just here to live yeah and. another uh set of reporting including. from people who were like there part of. his life like at least one personal. assistant who was there toward the end. he said that's kind of a charay that he. was actually really ressed he would lock.

himself in his room and just watch TV. for days on end he was into the occult. may or may not have been doing drugs but. it wasn't he wasn't like baking bread. and just been paying attention to Shawn. he was he was depressed but even if that. holds true by the time his death rolled. around he had turned some sort of corner. because he was on a schooner somewhere. on the way to Bermuda and ended up being. the only person on the ship that wasn't. seasick and was asked to like like. steered the boat through a storm and.

apparently going through that um that. gauntlet made him like just it just gave. him some confidence or or produce a. spark in him that he had been missing so. even if the people who said that his. last years were pretty depressing the. last year of his life was was different. than that it was renewed yeah and I mean. it was probably a little bit of both. John lennen struggled his entire life uh. with you know um with just issues he had. issues from from the moment he was.

raised uh until the day he died. generally speaking uh in and out of. drugs stuff like that so he was it was. probably both would be my guess um as. far as the work goes uh that fall of. 1980 is when the album Double Fantasy. came out yeah uh great record released. on November 17 the first one uh since. Shawn was born and it was uh you know it. things were looking uh I think more. posit positive you know he he regretted.

how heed Julian I think he felt like he. had a second chance here with Shawn he. was madly in love with Yoko Ono uh just. like Partners in everything and and. things were looking pretty good I think. he had largely sort of Let The Beatles. thing uh that that was a tough breakup. you know so he had to get through that. yeah but it sounds like he kind of had. by the time Double Fantasy came out. because it was it was a fairly upbeat. album about like family life and stuff. right yeah a lot of it was yeah so.

that's John Lennon karening Tau him on a. separate but soon to um to intersect. path was another person who is not in. any way famous and depending on what. interview you read of his who you talk. to what um psychiatrist notes you read. um was very disappointed that he was not. famous or that he was a nobody M his. name was Mark David Chapman and I should. say right out of the gate truck there's. a lot of people who are like don't even.

mention that guy's name yeah because he. said multiple times that the reason that. he killed John Lennon spoiler alert Mark. David Chapman was the person who killed. John lennen um to gain Fame to like. basically bask in the the reflective. glow that he would gain from taking John. Lenin's life so people are like don't. give that guy any publicity but you. can't talk about the death of John. lennen unless you talk about Mark David. Chapman and um from interviews that I've. with him there's a lot more to the story.

than him just killing John Lenin because. he wanted to be famous yeah although I. mean like you said he has literally said. I thought I could acquire his Fame by. killing him so uh he was born in 1955 in. Fort Worth Texas uh to an Air Force. father and a nurse mother and he grew up. uh four miles from my house. wow yeah I I had looked it up before. years ago and I did it again today I. couldn't remember he he had a decator.

address but it wasn't like decator. decator like we think of it right uh he. went to Columbia High School which was a. a rival High School to my high school. that I went to um obviously older than. me um but yeah he grew up right down the. road and his dad was a pretty tough guy. apparently there were stories that he. told about uh physical abuse against his. mother in which he would step in to. defend her uh the mother did say that. there were uh there was some abuse but.

she you know I think like a lot of women. of the time uh downplayed that but he. didn't seem like a very good guy as. evidenced by the fact that at one point. uh as we'll see Chapman thought about. killing his father like he wanted to. kill somebody right um and and we'll get. into all that but uh as a kid there were. you know he was sort of a go-getter in. some ways he started a newspaper for the. neighborhood he was a coin collector he. was kind of a normal kid in some ways. but then he also um you know Olivia.

found this one thing and I've seen this. elsewhere that he would create these. fantasies about people who lived in the. walls and that he was their king and you. know initially I'm like that's that's. kid stuff like kids do all kinds of. things like that right but the more and. more I read it seemed like it was it. bordered on like uh like a Godlike. complex rather than just sort of you. know make believe friends yeah they. considered him important and they were. the only ones who considered him. important supposedly yeah but I think. like that's a good illustration that he.

was showing signs that could be taken as. mental illness like as early as. childhood yeah there's a lot of debate. on the internet whether he's mentally. ill at all it seems like the growing. consensus is especially as we understand. mental illness more and more that yeah. he's probably very me mentally ill which. makes the fact that he's not being. treated for mental illness in prison. like that much worse you know yeah of. course so uh he became a ag in like the. 60s and really kind of bought into the.

whole hippie thing for a little while. when he was in high school started doing. drugs I think he started huffing in. halent which is that's what you do when. you start trying drugs in Georgia and. then he just kind of moved on and. eventually came to acid I think he tried. heroin a few times like he definitely. tried all the drugs and he also was into. the Beatles his favorite album with. Sergeant Peppers um he also kind of got. into conspiracy theories and UFOs just. kind of like into all the stuff you get.

into when you start doing lots of drugs. right and then he had a turning point. Chuck he like completely did an about. about face during High School yeah it. was only he only had did drugs for a. couple of years um and you know from 14. to 16 uh at Columbia High School he. became a a born again Presbyterian. Christian quit drugging and uh during. his drug years like it it you know I saw. those just weed in LSD but I guess some.

other things were sprinkled in there um. but he was actually ran away from home. and was living on the streets of Atlanta. for a couple of weeks it's like a. 15-year-old oh wow uh but when he. straightened himself out he got a job at. the YMCA uh after he graduated and was a. a counselor he worked with Vietnamese. refugees in Arkansas and by all accounts. was really good at it he was popular. with the kids he was popular with the. campers uh this is sort of I guess where. we can start talking about C The Catcher.

And The Rye yeah because the one thing. that he sort of identified with was uh. well Holden Coffield as a whole but. Holden Coffield and his liking kids more. than he liked adults and that was. certainly seem to be true with Chapman. yeah he definitely came to identify with. Holden Coffield for sure um the I read a. people um like People magazine interview. with him from 1987 it's really long. piece by a guy named James R.

gains and um in it you get the. impression that Mark David Chapman. during this time is struggling with. trying to be sane trying to be good. trying not to be bad trying not to feel. like he's going crazy yeah and at one. point he finally got to the point where. he's like he was apparently tired of. struggling started he basically turned. his back on God and started praying to. Satan and was just like just turn me. crazy I'm basically I'm sick of trying.

not to be crazy from that point on his. words Yeah Yeah from that point on he. just kept really going downhill from. there. essentially yeah and I think that can be. the case as you you know depending on. what sort of mental illness you have as. you get up in your upper teenage years. things can really sort of settle in yeah. and uh I I saw a lot of interviews he. talked a lot about the two sides of. himself um as we'll see later there were.

certain uh psychiatrists after uh like. during the trial that diagnosed him as. uh having paranoid. schizophrenia um he heard voices in his. head like things like that were starting. to happen with more. regularity uh so in 1977 he kind of. dropped out and moved to Hawaii uh I. think thinking it would be good for him. uh he did have a suicide attempt there. uh but he also got treatment for.

depression and started traveling and. stuff like that he did this is really. strange he at this time managed to. travel the. world uh I could not find how he paid. for it but I know that he paid for a. later trip by selling an original Norman. Rockwell that he had acquired so this. guy who is like basically living on the. beach in W ke Kei with no money suddenly. goes on a trip around the world to Asia. to the Middle East um during this.

several month period between oh I think. it's sometime in 1978 it's a really. bizarre little footnote that there's not. a lot of information on but that's one. thing he did and uh the reason that we. bring this up is because his travel. agent a woman named Gloria AB um ended. up marrying him and they they're still. married actually yeah they. were I mean that may be one of the facts. of the podcast they were married for 18. months before he murdered John lenen and.

she has subsequently stayed married to. him and the interviews that I read she's. like you know I I I'm took an oath of. marriage uh in front of God and. everybody and I'm going to honor that. yeah so that's that's basically the end. of the story I mean there's really not. more to it than that she she has stayed. by his side uh you know does regular. conjugal visits uh with him in prison. and they're you know they're still going. going strong I guess uh but it in Hawaii.

is when although he was getting. depression treatment he really went. downhill with his mental health there uh. and that's where he started obsessing. about killing somebody famous uh in. order to gain Fame uh and lenen was on a. list as well as Johnny Carson and. Elizabeth Taylor Paul McCartney George T. Scott uh the governor of Hawaii Ronald. Reagan apparently David Bowie was on the. list it was was a big of people uh that.

you know the police found this uh upon. their investigations of people that he. wanted to murder yes um alarmingly he. was hired as a security guard um and. outfitted with a gun during this period. and in uh 1980 he quit his job and he. bought his own gun he flew from Hawaii. to New York with a gun in November of. 1980 and by this time like you said he. he come up with a list of famous people. who he might kill and during this trip.

he later said that he visited both. Reagan's and Carter's election night. parties um probably with a gun kind of. like a Travis um Bickle yeah Bickle kind. of thing yeah but he didn't do anything. obviously and he actually went back to. um to Hawaii afterward yeah and before. he did that he went to Georgia to get. bullets because at the time uh you know.

the good old days you could not even buy. bullets in New York city so he went back. to Georgia to get bullets and I don't. know if he couldn't buy them there or. what but his plan was to get them from a. cop friend of his uh and said that he. was thinking about killing his dad and. then you know went back to Hawaii at. that point then went back to New York on. December 6th which was a. Saturday uh and maybe that's a good time. to take a break what do you think yeah.

all right we'll be right. [Music]. back.

[Music]. all right so uh Mark David Chapman is in. New York on December 8th um John linen. and Yoko Ono are promoting the album. they had just released Double Fantasy uh. they went to breakfast uh John lyen went. and got a haircut he had that awesome. hair at the time it's when he was sort. of in his uh uh kind of like uh grease. or stray cats look yeah yeah you're. right right it was kind of kind of a. cool look cuz he always had this long.

hair usually and all of a sudden he had. sort of this Greaser look which is which. was super cool yeah uh and he had a very. very famous photo shoot uh done at his. apartment that day with Annie leitz for. Rolling Stone yeah what a Daye the. iconic cover that was released uh much. later in January of 1981 where John. linen is curled up naked beside Yoko Ono. and the pictures kind of taken from. above um very very famous photograph. that photograph was you said taken on.

the day he died that's right isn't that. nuts yeah not as nuts as one of the. other photographs taken that day no that. is it's great foreshadowing so um after. the Annie libowitz um photo shoot they. went downstairs to yoko's studio and. they were interviewed by RKO radio and. then after that was time to go to work. it's like 5:00 p.m. and Yoko and John uh. leave the Dakota to go to the um record. plan plant a recording studio to work on.

a new single uh called walking on thin. ice this is around 5:00 and they leave. the Dakota and as they're leaving they. met a fan who was standing out on the. sidewalk and it turns out had been. standing out on the sidewalk essentially. for the last few days um to waiting to. run into um John Lenin and that fan was. in fact Mark David Chapman yeah um as a. odd side note and I think this just came. out in sort of semi- recent years uh he. was not the only person to meet Mark.

David Chapman as a musician there yeah. but uh James Taylor said that he bumped. into him he lived uh I think a couple of. buildings up from the Dakota and he met. Mark David Chapman on the subway uh and. he told the story you know in the in the. past few years he said that uh he had. button hold me in the Tube Station uh. right in front of 72nd Street the day. before the murder and he had sort of. pinned me to the wall not physically but. you know just sort of metaphorically I. guess he was glistening with maniacal.

sweat and talking some freak speak about. what he was going to do with his stuff. and how John linen was interested. because I don't think we mentioned he. wanted to be a he wanted to be famous. but he supposedly tried to play guitar. yeah I'm not sure how much he fancied. himself a musician um but I don't think. it's like he was delivering demo tapes. or anything unless I never caught that. uh but freak speak about what he was. going to do how lenon was interested and. how he's going to get in touch with John. lenen uh he said he seemed either.

drugged or in a manic break of some sort. his eyes were darting all over the place. dilated like crazy and uh then he closed. by saying he was just someone who knew. me and who I didn't know and he had an. agenda that I couldn't deal with and I. knew that I needed to get away from him. isn't that crazy he met James Taylor the. day before he killed John Lon and Taylor. heard the shots from his apartment man. when it happened so but all but before. that after he met John James Taylor but.

before he shot John Lenn and this is. still where we're at um around 5:00 when. Yoko and John are leaving the Dakota for. the record plant Mark Chapman walks up. and asks him to sign his copy of Double. Fantasy that record that had just come. out uh the month. before and that photo that you. referenced Chuck the even weirder photo. there's a picture of this happening of. John lennin signing Mark David Chapman's. copy of Double Fantasy just so happened. that there was somebody with a camera.

standing on the sidewalk that decided to. snap a picture of John Lennon signing an. album for the man who would take his. life a few hours later yeah it's one of. the creepier photos that exists uh. especially if you're a Beatles fan it. was uh a photographer named Paul GES uh. and he he didn't quite happened to be. there he was someone who hung out there. all the time oh yeah to get pictures of. linen and they were in fact act friendly. because he was always around and you.

know obviously a huge Beatles fan and. John lenen like he would chat him up and. he was he was really he was a generous. human as a super famous musician right. and so he would spend time talking with. gorish and stuff like that when they. were he was waiting on a a car or. something like that and that's why he. was out there for a few minutes this. time is they were kind of just waiting. on their car and uh yeah he signed it in. pin uh that record was auctioned off uh. uh a couple of years ago for $900,000.

it was signed in pen but it also has you. know like police uh Sharpie markings. like evidence markings on it and stuff. like that it also has Chapman's enhanced. thumb print like from police forensic. dusting it yeah it's I mean I don't know. one other I'm not going to cast. dispersions on who would buy something. like that for almost a million dollars. uh but you know 10 people been on it so. I I guess I'm not sure if it was a. Beatles fan looking to show it off or.

destroy it or what I didn't get any. information about who bought it there's. one other creepy footnote of this. initial meeting too apparently somebody. reported who was there when when all. this happened that um John lenon asked. Mark David Chapman is that all you want. and Mark David Chapman apparently just. stood there in stunned silence and and. John lenon asked him again is that all. you want and I guess Mark David Chapman. said yeah or something like that and so. John Lennon said okay see you later and. uh turned around and got in the car and.

um left for the record plant yeah and. and that was enough that interaction was. so uh amicable and friendly as a super. famous guy uh talking with someone you. know stalking outside of apart his. apartment that Mark David Chapman. reconsidered uh in that moment and was. like geeez you know maybe I should go. home and show my wife this autograph. that I got he was really kind to me uh. but that didn't happen because he has.

mental illness um he he h in his head. when he came back uh lenen and uh Yoko. Ono got back just before 11 he was still. there uh that limousine like you said. could have pulled in that um Courtyard. area where they would have had a gate. behind them but they dropped them off on. the sidewalk and uh in his brain he said. he heard a voice saying do it do it do. it uh with his um external human voice.

he just said Mr lenen and John lenen. turned around and he fired his 38 uh. pistol five times and hit him four times. yeah so um John lenon uh stumbles. forward and I believe it was either the. doorman or the security guard um is. standing there and John Lennon says to. him I've been shot and there's a a. three-part documentary series coming out. on Apple Plus um called John Len and. colon murder without a trial and I guess.

some publicists didn't do their research. or whatever because all of the stuff. that uh all of like the ink that's being. written about that documentary in the. last week is about how it reveals John. Lennon's Last Words which turned out to. be I've been shot but anybody who cared. to even go read even the first couple. articles that covered this at the time. will see that his last words were I've. been shot but they made it sound like it. was breaking news yes they made it sound. like at long last documentary 43 years. later has revealed his last words but.

his last words were I've been shot. technically his last word was yes. because when he was laying there on the. sidewalk the police got there within two. minutes and one of the cops said are you. John Lennon and he said yes and that was. the last thing he ever said the cops got. there really quickly but the thing that. they found that was extraordinarily. creepy was what Mark David Chapman did. after he shot John lennin right yeah the. security guard yelled out do you know. what you just did and uh Chapman said I.

just shot John lenen uh which would. become a cranberries song in. 1996 uh that that was about the murder. of John Lennon and he picked up his copy. of Catcher in The Ry and he leaned. against the building and started. thumbing through it I think it was a he. had bought a new copy that day uh of his. favorite book and he you know didn't try. and get away didn't try and do anything. went very peacefully uh the police when. they got there knew how dire this was.

you know four bullets at close range. like that um was you know basically a. death sentence and they knew they. certainly couldn't wait for an ambulance. so they put him in the squad car drove. him to uh what was the time Roosevelt. Hospital uh now Mount Si West and. supposedly I mean I saw that he was. listed as Dead on Arrival uh they tried. to resuscitate him um I think for about. 20 minutes yeah and they finally.

pronounced him dead at 11:15 but I've. heard different accounts that he died in. the police car to he died you know upon. arrival at the hospital and I'm not. really sure anyone knows the exact. moment no um I read a um um an interview. with the emergency room doctor that. tried to save him Stephan G Lynn and he. said like the the bullets were so. incredibly well placed that he actually. had Lenin's heart in his hand trying to. pump the the blood to keep the blood. flow going and he said there was nothing.

to pump there was he'd lost so much. blood there was no blood to pump and at. any rate all the arteries around the. heart were so torn up they couldn't move. any blood anyway so it's probably likely. he was dead in just that short car trip. to the. hospital yeah the official autopsy found. two bullets uh went into his back and. went through his left lung another went. through his left shoulder uh also. through his left lung and then lodged in. his neck and the other one hit his left. armb bone and in a very sort of strange.

turn of events uh this news got out very. quickly because there was a producer for. WABC TV there in the emergency room. named Alan J Weiss who was being treated. after a motorcycle crash and all of a. sudden you know it's not like a just a a. regular person being wheeled into an ER. it was people were sort of losing their. minds and it was really chaotic uh he. knew that something was going on and he.

just gathered from sort of hearing. things that it was in fact John lenen. and as he says and this. sounds I'm not sure why I don't want to. believe it but he says that the musac. playing in the room while they were. trying to revive him was all my Ling. yeah Beetles song yeah for those of us. who aren't really into the Beatles. enough to know that that's a Beatles. song sure cuz he would not mention All. My Loving by the Everly Brothers you.

never know he's like that's just weird. um he also said that he heard Yoko Ono. scream and and he talked to one of the. doctors attending to him and and they. agreed that John Lennon probably was. dead and he was convinced enough that he. called the station WABC and told them. the news and so the news broke on ABC. which just so happened to be airing. Monday Night Football and it was Howard. coell that broke the news um to the. world essentially of John Lenin's death.

yeah it was a Patriots Dolphins game uh. tied up in the fourth quarter and Frank. gford you know while they were in. commercial they discussed like what. should we do here this is too big to. kind of sit on uh apparently coell did. not really want to do it but Frank gford. was like we kind of have to uh and so uh. as the the quote goes gford said you. know three seconds remaining John Smith. is on the line and I don't care what's. on the line Howard uh you've got to say. what we know in the booth and Howard.

coell talked about you know this is just. a football game uh he said lenen was. shot twice so the you know the news. wasn't even accurate that quickly off. the you know off the wire or I guess it. wasn't even a wire at that point uh but. he said that he was Dead on Arrival uh. and that it's hard to go back to the. game at that point yeah so um I also. read Stevie Wonder stopped his concert. in Oakland when he heard the news and. broke it to his fans too um it was a.

huge huge deal I mean like you said you. were even aware of it and you weren't. even like a Beatles fan or very aware of. the Beatles um if you were a Beatles fan. at the time yeah right yeah if you were. a Beatles fan at the time it was the. most devastating news you've heard since. the Beatles were breaking up maybe even. more devastating than that I would say. so probably because that ruined any. chance of it ever being reunited yeah. fair point I I saw that um somebody was. like what would have happened if John.

lennen hadn't been killed somebody was. like they probably would have played. together here or there you know once in. a while so yeah yeah I'm sure it was. much worse but um well he and Paul had. had repaired their relationship by that. point um and and the whole you know the. Beatles breakup was it was acrimonious. in that they were all sort. of not tired of each other but just. tired of being in that band together. but it wasn't you know they never hated. each other it was like any long-term.

creative partnership they they had a. strain but they had worked it out and. they were hanging out together in New. York some when Paul was in town and you. know it wasn't like you know they. weren't talking anymore or anything like. that things were headed toward. reconciliation if not professionally uh. certainly personally yeah they did work. it. out. please I think with that Chuck we should. probably take a break huh let's let's do. [Music].

it. [Music].

okay so we're back and um the world is. now just learning that John Lennon has. been killed yokoo um I'm not sure. exactly when she did it but she released. a statement saying like there's not. going to be a funeral which is probably. a wise move because I can't imagine what. John Lennon's funeral would have looked. like it would have just been chaos but. instead she said I think it would be. more appropriate to have like a a. 10-minute silent vigil and and around. the world people observed this 10-minute. silent vigil and apparently in Central.

Park there was upwards of 50,000 people. um standing there silently for 10. minutes and I heard a report that the. only thing you could hear in Central. Park in Manhattan at the time were the. helicopter whirling overhead who were. covering this for the news like no one. talked there weren't car horns there was. nothing for that 10-minute vigil which. must have just really kind of driven. home like the significance of that that. moment you know. yeah I mean it was before that though. the Dakota like there are pictures of I.

mean it looked like a you know a. festival a concert Festival of people. just outside the Dakota um I mean it's. not a stretch to say it was like on the. manner of like the queen dying or. something like that I mean people all. over the world tens of thousands. hundreds of thousands Gathering Together. uh to mourn his death and even very. sadly a couple of people in the. following days uh took their life by. Suicide uh mentioning uh Lennon's death.

and depression uh kind of pushing them. over the edge in their suicide notes. yeah um Paul McCartney when he heard the. news and was I guess asked by a reporter. to comment on it he um said something. like drag isn't it okay cheers um and. was very widely criticized for it and he. in his defense said like I couldn't. bring to words like what I was feeling. at the moment was in shock apparently he. went off and wrote a a a song about the.

whole thing called here today um have. you heard that song oh yeah it's on the. tug-of war record a good one uh it's. okay I mean it's not my favorite from. that record but um that that interview. that always has bothered me uh if you. see the interview it's just like he's. jammed in the middle of throngs of. people on a sidewalk and someone you. know sticks a camera and microphone in. his face and when you watch it it's. clear he's is not being flipped he's. he's a guy who's who probably doesn't.

want a camera and microphone shoved in. his face at that very moment right and. is just trying to get out of there um. Paul McCartney was obviously crushed uh. as were all the Beatles uh Ringo Star. was in the Bahamas immediately came to. New York and acted as you know sort of. temporary dad to Shawn because Yoko was. like I need I need help with my son you. know you don't think about like the nuts. and bolts of going through something. like that one of which is I have a. 5-year-old uh that needs to be looked. after and and Ringo stepped in there.

which is amazing that's it seems like a. pretty Ringo Star thing to do too yeah I. agree George Harrison um he was off on. his kind of like Eastern philosophy trip. and had been devoting his life to. preparing for a peaceful death. um so when he got the news he apparently. thought he got the call in the middle of. the night and his wife Olivia took the. call and he thought he just guessed at. first that Ringo Star was dead for some. reason I never saw what his reasoning. was um he just said that he he thought.

that in an interview but then when he. found out what had happened he. apparently was really angry that that. johon had been like robbed of a chance. of having like a peaceful like calm. death that he died in such a violent. Manner and it took him a while to get. over that and just kind of accept that. that happened um but on that note too. about the fact that that John lennin. died in a violent manner he. he supposedly had kind of um postulated.

that something like that might happen to. him someday he and he he chocked it up. to his violent past that he was a. violent person and that he expected he. might die violently when he when he went. which I thought was very. bizarre yeah very much uh Julian was 17. he was in North Wales and he said he. woke up with a gut feeling that. something terrible had happened uh And. he as The Story Goes went downstairs and. opened the curtains of his uh mother and.

stepfather's house and it was just. mobbed with press so that's how he finds. out that's terrible uh lenon was. cremated at Fern Cliff Cemetery uh. outside New York City in harsdale uh but. there was somebody who took another. photograph uh an unfortunate one of his. body in the morg and the New York Post. published it which is terrible yeah on. the front page I think and if it wasn't. the New York Post that put it on the. front page the inquire definitely did um. so yeah that there's some really.

significant photographs just that Circle. this event um so Mark David Chapman um. shows up in court two days later he's. taken to jail obviously by the police um. placed under suicide watch um and also I. think he was wearing a bulletproof vest. in court because there was just such a a. chance that somebody would kill him for. killing John lennin still today I think. if he left prison somebody might kill. him for killing John Lenin 43 years.

later you know and I I suspect he might. be aware of that but he um underwent a. battery of psychiatric tests with I. believe a dozen. psychiatrists over 200 hours between. over about the six months between the. first time he was arraigned and when he. ended up pleading guilty in court and. every single one of these psychiatrists. prosecution and defense said this guy. has some sort of mental illness the. degree of it was disagreed upon by the.

prosecution and the defense the defense. uh psychiatrist or like he has. schizophrenia he has psychosis he uh. wasn't he's not aware of like what he. did the prosecution said he's very aware. of what he did he has mental illness. probably some sort of personality. disorder but definitely not anything. that's made him so detached from reality. he's not culpable for this crime yeah. for sure um. finally on June 22nd he changed his plea.

himself uh his attorney it was actually. his second attorney because the first. one uh withdrew very quickly uh because. there were death threats like you're you. know defending Mark David Chapman uh but. Jonathan marks was the second us. attorney appointed and he was like don't. change your plea to guilty uh because. you know we could probably get you um. you know at least uh insane at the time. of the shooting MH uh like temporary. insanity uh which did they still even.

use that as a plea I don't know man I. know we've done an episode on it but I. don't remember where it landed these. days yeah I'm not sure but uh he changes. guilt uh ple to guilty of second deegree. murder uh on August 24th the judge. sentenced him to 20 years to life at. Green Haven Correctional. Facility and said you should get. psychiatric treatment and Mark David. Chapman read uh from The Catcher And The. Ry the part where um I was going to read. it but it's a little long but the part.

where Holden uh Coffield was basically. talking about saving the kids yeah that. are are in danger of of wandering off. the cliff uh and you know that's when he. calls himself The Catcher in the Ry and. that's you know he was still so attached. to that book at that point uh that. that's was sort of his final statement. and I think he even had a copy of the. book that he had inscribed uh and said. this is my statement yeah ently the book. the copy that he was reading after he. shot John lenen had that written in it.

and if you read that James R gain's. interview with him and people from 1987. this period of time that six months are. when he really seems the most mentally. ill when it really shines through. because he's vacillating between a. complete and total immersion in The. Catcher And The Ry and rejecting The. Catcher And The Rye and going to the. Bible and then vice versa and there's a. point where he he has this this um. awareness that the whole reason he shot. John lenon is to let everyone know that.

he's this generation's catcher in the Ry. and every generation has a catcher in. the r and he's the one now and it's. really unsettling and disturbing and it. would be really difficult to say the. things that are coming out of this guy's. mouth that is documented um and be just. making it up to make yourself seem. mentally ill it's just it's too off off. the off unhinged essentially well and. that was a history of this in his life. you know it wasn't like all of a sudden. after the murder he just started saying.

these things you know yeah and also I. mean even if if you exclude all that. don't you have to be mentally ill to. kill somebody to become famous doesn't. that require a certain level of at least. like a fundamental personality disorder. that would qualify as a genuine mental. illness I I think so I do. too yeah I'm no psychiatrist but if you. believe that you can acquire someone's. Fame by murdering them then yeah. essentially yeah uh there were were um a. couple of the other motives I mean you. know the motive is what it is which is a.

disturbed person wanting to kill a. famous person to gain Fame uh but he. also was a very devout Christian um. after this and at one point you know the. Beatles talked about being more popular. than Jesus um he offended his. Christianity with stuff like that and. the song Imagine um but you know I I. don't think those were like the big. reasons um he has expressed more and. more remorse and shame over the years as. time went by uh because in 20 I'm sorry.

in 2000 he became eligible for parole uh. and every two years he goes up before. the board and uh he expresses shame now. he said uh in 2020 uh what I did was. Despicable I I assassinated him because. he was very very very famous and that's. the only reason and I was very very much. seeking self- Glory very selfish. uh for her part Yoko Ono always writes a. letter saying please don't let him out.

um I don't feel like it's a punitive. plea uh from hearing interviews she. genuinely thinks that uh herself or Shan. or Julian are would be in danger if he. was let out and who can blame her yeah I. I mean yeah I don't I don't know what. else to say after that and one more. thing I want to mention is of course. strawberry Fe Fields uh the place uh in. October of 1985 on what would have been.

Lennon's 45th birthday Central Park. dedicated uh dedicated an area uh near. the Dakota where he used to go and walks. with Shawn at Strawberry Fields and it's. a wonderful place to visit uh it's got. this beautiful Mosaic on a walking path. and if you go there are always you can't. go there without seeing still just. scores of Beatles fans uh paying their. respects nice. yeah and. Yoko 90 years old still going strong and.

lived in that same apartment uh until. just a few years ago yeah I know and. there's a lot of people who love to hate. on Yoko if you want to get into John. Lenin conspiracy theory she's frequently. the person who's blamed as like hiring. um in indirectly Mark David Chapman as. the Hitman to kill joh L right exactly. just stop at the same time that kind of. that that's the kind of thing that gives. people who desp her fod for being like. see she she just she'd walk past the.

place where her husband died every day. and it didn't you know she didn't move. or something like that so she's a very. misunderstood person I think in a lot of. ways she finally did move during the. covid pandemic up to Upstate New York I. think with uh Sean yeah that people need. to stop all the Yoko stuff for God's. sake yeah I mean it's still going strong. if you read the internet but it does. feel like it's gone there's been a sea. change I think it used us to be way more. acceptable to just hate on her uh in.

just in general I think it's gotten a. little more conspiracy oriented rather. than just mainstream these days yeah y. Yoko Ono did not break up the Beatles. full stop stop saying that uh if you. watch that the great uh Peter Jackson. documentary that was out recently um it. it was it was definitely an odd thing. for all of a sudden to have her in the. recording studio with him it's different. but Paul was like it was an adjustment.

and Paul was like Hey listen I it's a. little weird but like he needs her he. loves her she's great for him and she's. not it's not like she's much of a. disruption or anything like even when. you watch the footage she's she's just. there and other family members are. popping in here here and there uh all. the time she was there the whole time. and he he really needed her at that. point like she was his life and Paul. McCartney understood that and he knew. that like that was going to be part of.

the working arrangement moving forward. and they were getting okay with that you. know nice well put I'm glad you finally. settled it once and for all yeah I'm. sure not everyone will be like well. Chuck said yoko's great so uh if you got. anything else no I I don't love her. singing but that's a different story. we've talked about I think we have but. I'm sure I've mentioned it before have. you ever seen her cover of fireworks. uhhuh I love that man so great I I just. think she's a true original artist so.

even if I don't love the singing like. she's she's always done interesting. things yeah um okay well if you want to. know more about the death of John lenon. there is no shortage of Articles and. documents and stuff that you can read on. the internet uh and since I said that of. course it's time for listener. mail uh I'm going to call this just a a. recent email from a young listener uh. hey I'm sorry not even hey yo Josh and. Chuck uh my name is Ben s and I'm a. 13-year-old from Eagle Mountain Utah.

love your podcast have been listening to. it for years and it makes me feel very. smart around my friends uh my dad. introduced us to it by having us listen. to it on all of our road trips cuz we. really like to go camping I come from a. family of six kids and four of us have a. rare skin condition called. epidermis epidermis mhm Bosa Simplex be. super cool if you guys did a podcast. about our skin condition and also this. we have a contest in our family to see.

who can get on listener mail first and. I'm really hoping it can be me so if you. do read this on the podcast can you. shout out my family mom dad Ricky Lily. me Olivia Sam and Grace thanks again for. the show hopefully I can listen to it. all through high school and college uh. and Ben sometimes we like to make dreams. come. true so that's why I picked this one so. take that Mom Dad Ricky Lily Olivia Sam. and Grace yeah Ben W everybody contest. is over first one to email as far as I.

know but that's how it goes right uh. well that's awesome thanks a lot Ben we. appreciate it and we're glad we could. help you out a little bit thank you very. much for listening and we hope you do. continue to listen throughout the rest. of your life and if you want to be like. Ben and send an email and let us know. you're super cool we love that kind of. thing you can wrap it up spank it on the. bottom and send it off to stuff podcast. iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts iHeart.

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