The Matewan Massacre | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and Chuck's here too and Jerry's. here too and we're here in solidarity. together the trio of us ready to put up. our Dukes in this episode of stuff you. should know the tri. Abus sure I said Trio right yeah okay. you were just messing around you were.

horsing around I was running with it how. are you doing I'm good uh quick shout. out to the city of Mexico City by the. way I meant to mention it the other day. when we recorded but uh I know that's. some place you've been and Jerry's been. I finally Emily and I made our first. trip MH and uh as you know and can. verify Mexico City is amazing it's a. pretty cool town for sure boy I feel. really at home there you do I do I feel.

very at ease I was just like this is I. don't know I don't know if um it's a. past life thing or whatpp dippy. but I was like this is like a New York. in a tropical forest I loved every bit. of it in the past life you were Diego. Rivera but not the famous one just. another Diego. River another big old fat guy uh we we. did go to Freda house which was a a. lifelong dream for both of us but really. for Emily so that was amazing and that's. great just all kinds of great stuff so.

uh so that and uh and that's it can't. wait to go back way to shout out a city. right out of the gate that's right uh. and this was my idea uh and I don't know. it may have been at the Bonnie Prince. Billy shows that I went to in Arizona we. may have been talking about the fact. that will oldum as a teenager was in the. John sales movie mate Juan mhm and I. think that's where it came to me cuz I. saw that movie back then and have not.

seen it since then but I was like hey. that sounds like a good good topic to. chew on man he was all over the place. John sales yeah he wrote and directed. matewan he wrote and directed brother. from another planet like he whatever. interested him he just did yeah he was. also a writer for hire like he wrote as. great a Indie genius as John saes is he. wrote the Piranha movie oh yeah I think. I knew that.

and a couple of other like writer for. higher things but yeah always been a big. John sales guy and matewan is awesome I. kind of want to check it out after I. know more about it now yeah he wrote a. lot of episodes of Spencer for higher. too and BJ and the be yep so uh yeah. that's I I'm glad you said matewan. because I had never heard that word out. loud before and I looked it up and I. heard yes I heard a resident say mawan. and and I immediately came up with a.

great pneumonic device for it you ready. oh boy if you want to remember how to. pronounce matewan it's a small small. town in southern West Virginia uhhuh you. just say hey who's that guy from West. Virginia over there you say who him. that's my mate. Tuan works like a charm I am here to. tell you. Tuan yeah you could say Juan but I think. Tuan has a greater ring to it to to.

really drive home how to remember it. mate. Twan okay sure although you would say. mate Juan as that Josh Clark's. [Laughter]. fin m one that's it I love it I want to. see how quickly I could derail things. this early in the episode well I mean I. talked about Mexico City for goodness. sakes so we are talking about mwan and. um I didn't know much about it again I. saw the word before I knew it was kind. of a thing but specifically the bad. Battle of matewan is what we're kind of.

talking about although that's just one. kind of island in the archipelago of. incidents that took place in uh Southern. Appalachia Southern West Virginia in. coal mining country um just across the. the River from Kentucky and right near. its border with Virginia as well and um. this all all the events we're about to. talk about took place in the early 20th. century and I knew nothing about any of. this until we started researching this. episode so kudos to you because this is.

a pretty interesting chapter in not just. American history or even West Virginia. history but um labor union history as. well yeah for sure uh and this was. Olivia jam and she did a great job uh. one thing I'm sure you knew before we. started this is that West Virginia and. Cole have always been linked MH uh and. as Cole went um the history of America. has gone because because of that robust.

uh bituminous coal industry that has. been around there since gez probably. like the mid 19th century you know it. allowed America to grow not only uh you. know with their factories and railroads. and things but just people and heating. homes and businesses and that kind of. thing yeah because you can get some hot. hot heat from coal hot hot heat and you. don't get quite as much from wood from. what I understand so just right there. you have more energy at your fingertips. plus also I didn't realize this but I.

saw it somewhere um that it also kept. cities from having to cut down all of. the forests around them and rely on that. wood right it just makes it it was just. a better way to grow as a as a. industrializing country and so because. America was you know booming thanks to. Coal I think people just kind of assumed. like the coal miners are probably doing. great they must be richer than astronaut. Nots for mining this stuff that's become.

so valuable coal companies were yes and. the problem is all of these events came. from would have been totally avoided. probably had the coal companies shared. in the wealth less. Stingily yeah I but that's the. Continuing Story of you know the world. right sadly yes I don't know how long. that's going to go on for I don't think. it's it has to be the way but yes that. is so far the story of of capitalism.

yeah but it you know it was it was a. pretty brutal existence as a minor back. then I mean it's still a very very tough. job uh there are still dangers to be had. even though they've you know cleaned it. up quite a bit but it's nothing like it. was back then it was dozens of miners. died every year there were all kinds of. accidents all the time uh big big events. where hundreds of people die in a single. disaster or just you know the daily work.

of uh dying on the job or dying you know. because you just do that job and you. breathe in that air uh that kind of. thing and to add insult to injury in a. lot of these towns the coal companies. sort of ran everything uh you know. sometimes they own the houses that the. people that work there lived in. sometimes they owned all the businesses. in town sometimes they ran the the uh. law office there not legal offices but.

you know the sheriff's department and. police and stuff like that mhm so it was. a sort of monopolistic control in a lot. of these towns yeah and even when they. um whether or not they had the local. sheriff or constable in their pocket. they also found out that they could. really supplement um their hold their. grip over their workers by hiring. private police forces as we'll see um. and they were really that's always a. great idea the private police force.

yeah for sure um and they were really. deliberate about keeping their um. workers from unionizing a good example. of that that Livia turned up there was a. m owner named justice Collins and he um. I don't want to say caught because I'm. sure he really didn't care whether you. heard this or not but he was basically. saying you want to keep a quote. judicious mixture of uh men as workers. from groups like European immigrants the. uh Appalachian folk that have lived here. for generations and then black.

Southerners um I guess dipera from the. Jim Crow South in search of Better Lives. who are showing up in the area you want. some of each because these people don't. naturally necessarily get along and you. can make it you can ensure even further. that they're not going to get along um. by paying some better than others for. the same exact work that that really. keeps people from getting along very. well and so if you've got groups of. workers who aren't really interacting. ing because they don't really mix well.

together um they're probably not going. to be able to successfully form a labor. union yeah but as we will see in many. cases uh the Union in fact it worked the. opposite way and they they brought. together people of different ethnicities. uh in a way that was not common at all. at the time as a whole you know no it's. true and I saw there's a great. Smithsonian article about all this um. and the historian they talked to was. saying I don't want to paint the picture.

like I think I think he said everyone. was just holding hands around the. campfire but they came together in ways. that were just unseen outside of this. area outside of the mining industry. outside of the mining unions and I'm. they did probably get along better than. people in other unions black and white. workers in other unions just because. they integrated there's a really great. um scene that happened at one of the. mine cafet cerias during one of these.

strikes black and white workers held the. cafeteria workers at gunpoint until they. were seated together eating in an un in. an integrated cafeteria room like they. integrated themselves at gunpoint. essentially amazing yeah it's pretty. cool uh so the union did get going. although you know as we'll see as this. story goes uh not quite yet in matewan. in the what what county was that again. Mingo County yeah I I have a great.

pneumonic device for that do you really. no oh man so uh the union did get going. in other parts of the country sort of. late in the 19th century uh the United. Mine Workers of America was founded in. 1890 and it was a real as far as unions. go at the time it was a real. all-encompassing Union in that there. were other unions around uh that sort of. you know if you if you're like a Smithy. or you had some really skilled specific. craft you might be represented. uh but they may not represent you know.

black workers uh Chinese immigrants. stuff like that but the miners Union. kind of from the beginning was like you. know what we're stronger with more. people we're going to represent all all. the miners who want to jump on board uh. and they realize that you know strikes. were early on a real uh and you know. still today a real big way that you can. make change but they were bloody Affairs. back then oh yeah like people would get. shot and killed on both sides the.

government forces would show up and. sometimes shoot people like it was a. really really violent um era in labor. history for sure murder it was murder. yeah for sure just killing people yeah. for for wanting to organize for better. working conditions and better pay yeah. like you could get you murdered back. then um and the so the United mind. workers of America they they kept at it. I think they were founded in 1890 did. you say that yeah can we call him umwa.

sure sure you know how to remember that. sure So within seven years they held a. strike a major strike in Illinois. Indiana Ohio and Pennsylvania and it. resulted in a eight hour workday for. Union miners um the thing is is that. didn't necessarily spread ac across the. country especially in southern West. Virginia which was almost entirely. non-unionized as far as coal went um and.

they I think from what I understand is. like the biggest pocket of non-union. miners in the in the entire country so. the so umwa said we need to start trying. to make some inroads in there because. there's a lot of people who could use. our help and um one of the I think the. first big confrontations that came to be. known as the West Virginia Mine Wars. took place in 1912 and umwa didn't. actually um bless it I guess is the way.

to to say it so it was considered a. wildcat strike but as soon as the strike. began and it grew very quickly um umwa. said we're we're behind you guys 100%. whatever you need yeah for sure this was. the uh the paint Creek and Cabin Creek. uh coal mines in kaawa county and they. struck and these these people will. really factor in here uh in a second to. the to the matewan affair but the. Baldwin Felts Detective agency which. we'll tell you all about here in a sec.

uh they were hired to come in these sort. of hired quote unquote guards uh also. known as thugs if you were one of the. unionists uh they came in and had. literal machine guns and shot up the. homes of miners when their families were. there uh these miners I mean they called. them Wars for a reason these miners were. heavily armed they fought back MH and. the governor at the time uh the the. venerable uh William to me Glascock came.

in declared martial law uh and sent in. the state militia to break this strike. up and a couple of hundred and it wasn't. just you know throwing all the union. leaders in jail they were uh I think. some of the um some of the Baldwin Felts. people went to jail but it was mainly. Strikers and union leaders that were. sort of under the thumb uh of glasscock. at the time so uh Mother Jones was which. by the way I think Mother Jones should. be a total topic mhm the the person not.

the the magazine sure or both we'll talk. we'll talk about the magazine a little. bit you have to right cuz like you could. do an episode on people of the world but. you'd have to talk about the magazine. yeah for sure you or anytime we talk. about us we should probably give a nod. to that magazine. too uh Mother Jones was arrested though. along with a lot of the leaders and. Strikers uh they had military. tribunals and this sort of closed that. the the first chapter of the West.

Virginia Wars because World War II came. along and distracted everybody for a. while but things would kind of kick back. into action in 1920 yeah and that paint. Creek Cabin Creek strike or War followed. um a pattern that would would become. pretty regular the miners would stop. working go on strike the company would. send in goons to come evict them from. their company homes without any kind of. Warrant or anything like that the the. families of the people evicted from.

those company homes would set up a tent. city the goons that the mine operators. employed would go attack the tent city. that would be a site too far for the. miners they would rise up armed and a. real like bloody Clash would begin and. then the the state or federal government. would send in essentially troops to. quell this Uprising and then the. organizers would be unfairly um arrested. often again without warrants um and. tried and held and and um then.

eventually things would kind of subside. for a little while that was the pattern. that was if not established there it. certainly was followed by all of the. wars after that one yeah absolutely um. well should we take a break uh yeah I. think we should all right we'll be right. [Music]. back. [Music].

so we promised to talk a little bit more. about uh this this company that figures. into the matewan affair or the matewan I. mean there's a lot of different names. the the war the battle at matewan stuff. like that um the Baldwin Felts detective. agency so this was uh 1892 they were. founded by a guy named will William G. Baldwin uh in Rono Virginia and a year.

later he hired a guy named Thomas phelts. to run the place with them so it was the. the Baldwin FS agency and they they were. modeled very much after the Pinkerton. agency and that they were hired as uh. sort of at first before they were even. though they had a feeling they were. going to get into union busting like. Pinkerton did at first they were one of. those private police forces you were. talking about and they were charged. depending on where they were and what. town they were in with everything from.

uh kicking hobos off trains or killing. hobos that were on trains MH uh to sort. of supplementing local police forces. when they were small towns to. eradicating what they called black crime. uh in the South like really sort of. casting on eye on black people in the. South and going after them and they were. you know they were thugs they were uh. the guys that they hired were uh their. backgrounds were pretty pretty rough and. tumble and they would use any means.

necessary to do what they wanted to do. they kind of had free reign to do what. they wanted yeah part of the reason why. is because again a lot of these towns. were quite literally run by the mining. company so if the mining company brought. in an outside police force the the. actual police force would work with them. at the very least the courts would turn. a blind eye or they just couldn't get. arrested and there were a lot of murders. like in broad daylight that that. happened during this time that the um. the private police force detectives I.

guess um carried out and just were not. even arrested for so um it was really. lopsided if you were a minor um not only. did this company like basically own you. but if you got out of line there was a. chance that you or your family were. going to be beaten and or killed so as. the as the um. umwa also known as umwa really started. to try to make inroads into Southern. West Virginia to organize this largest. pocket of non-union miners um the the.

coal mine operators push back by hiring. more and more um private police forces. especially the Baldwin Felts detective. agency they became not the only one but. probably the most prominent in southern. West Virginia as far as the the um the. amount of work they got and then the. dirtiness that they they got their hands. into yeah and they I mean they were. called the Pinkerton and the South they. were very effective uh at least at first. because I think between uh over like an.

eight-year period at the turn of the. century at the end of the last century. they prevented these unions uh from. organizing in West Virginia and you know. I think there were there were some. strikes that happened uh and they kept. West Virginia out of it uh so they were. successful for a while at least um like. you said they would beat up organizers. if you were pro-union uh you know you. might get kicked out of your house you. might have your house burned down down. they Place moles they Place spies uh.

among the miners and also just in town. uh as we'll soon see they had one guy. open up a restaurant a spy in uh matewan. and we'll meet him later as well but uh. it was I think it was the the paint. Creek and Cabin Creek strikes that we. talked about a few minutes ago where all. of these guards came in hundreds of. these dudes killed up a bunch of people. uh the same thing happened in col colado. in 1914 what was called The lllo.

Massacre where 11 literal children were. killed because sometimes these minors. were kids like you know I don't know how. young they got but they were children. these kids that were killed weren't even. minors they were minor children so they. were really like not they were really. out of bounds and the fact that 11 of. them were killed because the the um. Balwin Felts detectives came and burned. the Tent City down that they were living. in that was that was it that that really. caught the nation attention as well and. they gave a really terrible name to the.

Baldwin FS detective agency which they. managed to trade on very heavily in in. southern West Virginia yeah and tent. city because they were kicked out of the. homes that were owned by the mining. companies exactly so not only did that. that whole process take place in. southern West Virginia it also happened. in Colorado too that's just what. happened you got kicked out of your home. you go s set up a tent city and then. imagine setting up a tent city that's. nowhere near the miners land or the M. comp's land and the M Company still.

comes and burns your tent city down. because you're still trying to organize. it's it's just some of the most. important almost. unimaginable um acts that just were. carried out constantly between I guess. probably basically the 1890s until the. 1930s when Franklin Roosevelt came into. Power like that's just what happened. that's what people did that was the risk. you ran if you didn't just keep your. mouth shut and your head down and take. whatever abuse they heaped on you in the. mine as as owners yeah I mean this is.

only 100 years ago which 100 years is a. long time but it's not that long no it's. not which actually I mean like there's. still plenty of reasons to organize and. and um and unionize and there's still. plenty of grievances that need to be. addressed um but just the the actual. process that. happens it's just we've come quite far. at the very least in removing generally. violence from that kind of process yeah. for sure so things are heating up in.

West Virginia uh end of 1919 there's a. big uh umwa launched a nationwide coal. strike where they got a big fat raise. they got a 27% raise if you were a mine. worker but again West Virginia was still. almost completely non-un at this point. so they they didn't get the benefits. from that but I get the feeling that it. really sort of um rallied them to. organize and at the same time omwa was. really mounting an effort in West. Virginia MH so they launched a campaign.

there in 1920 uh in the southern part of. the state in McDow Logan and uh Mingo. County where mwan is to really get them. together and say hey look we got big fat. raises for people all over the country. here you really need to. unionize uh and matewan was right there. in the middle of Mingo County I'm sure. someone's going to say actually it's. toward the outside of Mingo County I I. think it actually is okay it's just a. euphemism like you know smack dab in the. middle yeah I get you I'm just saying I.

was being the um lone emailer or the. mased emailer yeah the uh well actually. person exactly that's me uh no it's not. you at all thank you so matewan you know. we described these towns that were. literally kind of run by the mining. companies mwan was not one of them uh. the mining company did have their. fingers in some operations but there. were like real legit local businesses. owned by locals uh the that was a real. independent Sheriff there I'm sorry.

police chief uh his name was uh smiling. Sid Hatfield uh of those Hatfields I. think his his grandfather the best it. always gets so confusing with me in. genealogy as you know that was his. grandfather. devilance no his grandfather was half. brother of the. grandfather uh half brother of devilance. oh was that right I thought he was the. direct grandson of devil Lance but okay. he's still he's still k I folk as far as. the he was one of those Hatfields and we.

did an episode on the hat field McCoy if. you want to check that out that was a. good one it was like a appalachin Romeo. and Juliet story yeah it totally was but. uh that is to say uh Sid Hatfield was. not in the pocket he was a pro-union guy. and not in the pocket of the coal. companies which was kind of unusual he. was such a pro union guy he was uh he. stood trial once for blowing up a coal. Tipple which is the structure that a.

freight train car drives under and gets. filled with coal and it's entirely. possible he did that that's how. sympathetic he was to the coal miner. cause yeah so he was he was the the not. the sheriff in town there was a sheriff. and I get this the impression that the. sheriff was a Law and Order kind of guy. like his his Allegiance was to Law and. Order so you know no matter what side. you were on if you needed his protection. or you know the law is being broken he. took that serious iously he seemed a. little more even Keel I can't remember.

his name Sid Sid Hatfield was 100% in. the miners camp and the fact that this. town existed and it wasn't in the pocket. of the mine operators is I think the. reason why these things happened because. there was there there was a power. structure that could start to take on. these Baldwin Fels detectives who were. coming to town and causing trouble yeah. absolutely I think you're totally right. thank you uh. the uh the company in matewan the mining. company was called The Stone Mountain.

Coal Company uh also where I was born. you were born at the May one I was born. in Stone Mountain Georgia different. place I didn't know that I knew like you. worked there but I didn't know you were. born in Stone Mountain w we well I mean. I was. born the hospital was decab General back. then now it's decab Medical Center which. is decar okay but I had a stone mountain. address even though it was not. near you know kind of Downtown Stone.

Mountain and Stow Mountain Park I. understand that's fine that still counts. as Stone Mountain I'm not questioning. your Bona fites no no no it was it was. just a little weird though because if. you if you're from around here and you. say you grew up in Stone Mountain people. probably think like oh you grew up and. went to Stow out in high school and live. right near the park but it was the. dresses were just different back then I. get you all right you sound a little. defensive no no no I'm not defensive at. all proud Stow Mountain guy uh remember. when I was a kid uh Steve Martin.

referenced Stone Mountain in I think the. Man with Two Brains I thought you were. like it was was a very big deal because. Stone Mountain didn't get a lot of. shouts and there was I remember there. was one line where he said something. about uh ston Mountain Georgia during. like a rant and it was just like what. Steve. Martin why is his hair. gray I guess the good thing about that. is Steve Martin looks about the same as. he does very much 40 years ago mhm uh.

all right so uh workers did uh they even. though they weren't under the the thumb. necessarily as a town of the Stow. Mountain Coal Company a lot of the. workers did live in company housing and. sometimes they were paid in dividends. instead of you know money like real. American money and uh they did use they. employed the Baldwin Felts company to. kind of you know come in and keep things. quilled yeah that the they had a spy too. who was I mean in a in an episode full.

of really terrible people this guy might. be the most terrible of all his name was. C Everett Lively C Lively and he was. involved in that lllo massacre in. Colorado he had killed at least one. person for sure and he moved to Southern. West Virginia and set up shop as a spy. ostensibly he was a miner um who or he. had mining experience but had gotten. into the restaurant business and open a. cafe and he opened the cafe and. basically put out the welcome map for.

the local miners Union to come have. their meetings at so he could keep tabs. on what they were saying and you know. you want to just say like wow they. really fell for that yes this guy he he. befriended Sid Hatfield he like made the. right kind of friends to make himself. seem legitimate so it was you know not. hard for him to get to get some of these. um organizers leaders and otherwise to. um cough up like detail because they. trusted the guy and they even very.

smartly the organizers for um the the. like Mingo County area um they did not. have a an elected leader and if they did. they kept it secret so you didn't know. who was actually running the show which. oh no Union no Local Union head right oh. interesting even behind the scenes a lot. of people didn't know who was actually. calling the shots which actually from. what I understand led to kind of a just. a um a byproduct democratization of the.

whole process as well which I think. brought people in even further because. they had a real stake in what what. happened and and had a real say in what. happened was there a leader like do we. know who it was now yeah his name was I. think Frank. Keeny oh okay he was um his his one of. his descendants is a local historian who. knows all about this stuff but he was um. he was definitely the guy in charge of. the the um Mingo County area um umoa. chapter he was the one who was.

organizing it and he was doing it at a. time when no one else would do it um and. actually they sent Mother Jones um to. come in who would she would have been. about 80 at the time she'd been a labor. organizer for at least 50 years since. then um and she uh helped big time for. sure but but it was Frank Keeny who who. was the guy who was in charge I thought. you were going to say they kept keen's. identity a secret and they were like you. know he's just sweeping up around the. restaurant and they're like oh ok Keeny.

lost his tongue about 30 years ago and. he he can't even talk anymore Y no one. opened his mouth to check they just took. it on Fai that he really had that's. right and he literally kept his mouth. shut so remember CE Charles Everett. Lively yeah is a terrible person yeah. he's the the Spy so uh we mentioned that. tent city that happened in another. places this did happen in matewan a lot. of the families were kicked out of the. their homes uh relocated to live. together on on land in tents mhm and uh.

in the spring of. 1920 uh Mingo County uh the the matewan. workers finally said we're going to go. on strike uh mainly to protest the fact. that these thugs these Baldwin Felts. thugs as they were called came in to to. bust up their organizing efforts which. culminated in I I guess what we'll call. round one of three rounds of events on. May 19th. 1920 when about a dozen of these uh.

guards from Baldwin Felts uh came in um. to mwan they went to evict them uh from. ENT City uh a lot of people say that. like they were just kicked out of their. homes but the National Park servic is on. record saying that you know like you. said earlier they actually went to a. place that they didn't even have. jurisdiction and said uh you got to get. out of your tent city as well even. though we have no power here MH. and those um did we already mentioned.

Lee phelts right or did we no we've only. mentioned his brother okay so a couple. of the guards were Albert and Lee Felts. and they're Brothers of the co-owner of. the company Tom phelts so he has literal. family members sort of on the ground as. one of these local Thugs and Albert his. brother and another one of the guards. named CB Cunningham uh and this was a. guy that was in that Colorado Massacre. one of the guys in the Colorado massacre. in addition to CE Lively I hope this.

isn't getting too confusing with all the. names just map it out. everybody they had a a shootout in town. like just a sort of a good oldfashioned. you know meet in the middle of town and. had a had guns drawn so there's a lot of. um variations on exactly what happened. um and we'll we'll give you two of them. one according to the West Virginia. Department of culture um said that um. after they evicted people from the Tent. City or the company homes those Baldwin.

Fels detectives actually went into town. and had dinner and they were on their. way to the train station and uh they. were going to catch the 5:00 train out. of town when they were approached by. smiling Sid Hatfield and um Hatfield. said hey you didn't have any right. whatsoever to evict those people I have. a warrant for your arrest and Albert. felt said you know what I've got a. warrant for your arrest he might have. even said uhuh first right it just so.

happened that the mayor of mwan uh cabel. Cornelius testerman CC testerman again. with the Double C initials yeah he was. on the scene he was a good friend of Sid. Hatfields and he said let me see that he. said this is a fake this isn't actually. a warrant for Sid Hatfields arrest and. by the way you can't arrest the chief of. police here so so get out of here and. while this was happening um a bunch of. miners who were armed had taken notice.

of this confrontation that was taking. place in the middle of the street. between a bunch of um Baldwin phelts. detectives their mayor and their police. of uh chief of police um and so they. kind of armed themselves to see what. happened somebody fired a shot and all. heck bro broke loose yeah and that's. from the mouth of JM Clark legendary. podcaster. Right you ever gone by JM I tried it you. know once or twice it felt felt.

wrong I like that JM Clark do you I. don't like those two letters together. they're not great oh I think it's good. you don't think it has a ring no it's. like it's like missing a vowel like Jim. Jam something like that JM it's not. they're not CC CB JB all those are. pretty good JM is not good and I'm sorry. to all the jm's out there I think JM. Clark sounds like a high-end uh P maker. like a a Clothier or a habit daser I.

make only tattersol. vests CW I I I would think that doesn't. sound great but my dad called me CW so. it sort of has a ring in my mind it no. it does I don't think they flow really. CW does CW all right yes JM does not. well at any rate I'm going to come over. and have you fit me for some for a pant. well that's fine I'm going to start. calling you cdubs from now on cdubs uh. so they surrounded by the miners um this. is as far as the different accounts go.

this sort of became a a greo shot first. deal uh and that someone fired a gun. shootout happens um seven of the. detectives were killed including Albert. Felts uh the brother of the founder of. the agency that's and Lee I think too oh. did they both die yeah oh okay uh and. mayor testman was killed and two miners. uh and again depending on who you talk. to there's a historian that Livia found. named Rebecca Bailey uh that told the.

Smithsonian that uh Hatfield probably. shot first or the. minors uh other people say that uh. contemporaneous Accounts at the time at. least from the Williamson news is like. the day after uh they said that. detectives took uh Sid smile and Sid. into custody right uh and that when. mayor testerman came up and said no no. no you've got to release him. that that's when things broke out and. that testerman and Felts were shot first.

yeah uh and then the the Baldwin Felts. thugs kind of got out of there some of. them tried to get across the river to. Kentucky some made it some got shot. there some supposedly were shot while. they were running away uh not across the. river and then some of those that did. make it came back later like under the. cover of night to catch a train and uh. in secret uh so who knows how it. actually went down we do know who died. though yeah and there's still um uh.

bullet holes in some of the brick. buildings on mate street where the. shootout happened yeah I think they. preserved them by putting BL brass plugs. in them oh yeah yeah so however it. happened there was definitely a shootout. and a bunch of people died uh and we're. left in the street until you know. everybody I mean you've got like the. dead mayor the chief of police is. involved there's just so many dead. people laying around that it took a. little while to get everything cleaned. up up and in orderly again apparently. trains of people had started arriving.

and were like okay and we get back on. the train and that night actually they. redirected trains through matewan they. they ordered the trains not to stop in. matewan as as usual until the next day. so it was a really really big deal um. and rumors started flying very quickly. and probably the biggest one was that um. it was actually Sid Hatfield who shot. mayor testerman and that the reason he. shot him was because Sid Hatfield had.

eyes for testerman's wife Jesse yeah and. they traced this rumor to Baldwin Felts. detectives yeah right and so apparently. at um Hatfield's trial for this um by. the way he was acquitted by a very. sympathetic jury as was all of the. miners involved um a lot of people. stepped up and said no this this is. totally wrong these guys were really. close friends of course he's not going. to shoot them in retrospect for from my. view to execute your romantic rival in.

the in broad daylight in the middle of. the street anticipating a gunfight would. be pretty Brazen and just hoping for the. best so I think just you know the fact. that there was no one who even said like. yeah he he actually did this I saw him. do it I I think he probably didn't but. but there there is a little bit there's. a strange postcript to this story that. does make you wonder a little bit Yeah. Sid Hatfield uh married the mayor's wife. Jesse less than a month after this all. went down yes and to it does good it.

does make you wonder and to to make it. even more interesting um Jesse was a. direct descendant of Randolph. McCoy no way really yeah for real I mean. this took place like right across the. river from where the Hatfields of mcco. lived in Kentucky wow smiling said he. just he did he didn't give a crud did he. he didn't give a Rootin tooten. crud. he didn't uh I believe even after the. wedding um they were getting their.

marriage license and they were in. Huntington staying at a hotel so this. was. pre-wedding um staying in the same room. so you could get arrested for that kind. of thing back then it was called. cohabitation and the police arrested him. and of course it was Tom PHS who had. tipped them off uh but apparently the. judge uh said no don't worry about it uh. you guys are getting married today and. and who wants to mess that up right the. judge Tom F said me right the judge's.

famous quote was. mazeltov right you want to take a break. yeah let's take our other break and. we'll uh we'll finish up what happens. right after. [Music]. this. [Music].

so like I said um Hatfield was acquitted. his uh Deputy Ed Chambers was there too. he was acquitted 17 miners all acquitted. because they were tried in Mingo County. which was again not run by the coal. companies um so. uh that really didn't sit well with. Balwin Felts with the coal operators. round one to the miners basically for. sure that's a really great way to put it. um and like I said uh Sid Hatfield and.

it turns out also Ed Chambers were um. tried for blowing up a a coal Tipple. like I mentioned and they were actually. dealing with this case and this one had. um had been set in McDow County and they. uh they had petitioned Chambers and. Hatfield to for a change of venue. because they're like we're going to get. the death sentence for this thing here. and it was actually granted um for it to. be granted they needed to show up to. court in McDow one more time before it. was transferred over to I think Mingo. County and on that day they went to.

court with both of their wives uh came. out and they were gunned down in broad. daylight by no less than CE Lively the. anti-union spy who was supposedly Sid. Hatfield's close. friend yeah and get this round one goes. to the miners because they were in a uh. the like you said the local jurors were. more friendly to them round two goes to. the other side because the Assassins. said it was self-defense and they.

weren't convicted because it was in. McDow County and it was more friendly. toward the coal company exactly so these. juries are just biased on both sides. basically uh as far as Jesse goes she's. now been widowed twice uh and she. remarried in January of. 22 uh but not to a Hatfield or a. Pinkerton of the South no but he was a. state Constable so she liked the the um. the. I guess the elected officials men in. uniform sure she should have made a.

baker then for sure I'm gonna do. something different this. time uh so this all you know that's. round two which was which was pretty. quick uh this kind of um instigated. round three which was the big one uh. which were uh the march on Logan County. and the Battle of Blair Mountain uh. because of these murders the uh unionist. and the minor sent uh some demands to. the governor uh Ephraim Morgan at this. point and said hey this Baldwin Felts.

group of thugs are violent and they're. doing things that are illegal and this. can't stand uh but Morgan of course. everyone want's in the pocket of. somebody yeah uh was an anti-union. Republican and said didn't even. acknowledge it didn't even make a. comment on the assassination and took no. action on this List of Demands at all so. two things about Governor Morgan one uh. while he was governor um a US Senate. committee on labor issued an opinion.

that West Virginia was nothing more than. an industrial autocracy and that the. governor was basically there strictly. for the benefit of the coal operators. and then number two when he was elected. the reason he won is because he ran. against three other progressives who. were pro- labor and they split that vote. he was the only anti- labor guy and if. you put their votes together he would. have been beaten badly but they split. the vote and that led this anti- labor.

guy to become governor and it reveals. something really important that um the. people the general voter out there in. West Virginia was PR labor was in favor. of minors was in favor of unions was not. in favor of anti-union conservatives um. and just put put that in your pocket for. later because it's a really important. Point that's right front front pocket. even I think the front pocket of your. tarol vest that's right uh right beside.

your uh pocket watch sure all right so. because of the non-action by the by the. governor uh in August of. 1921. 10,000 that's right 10,000 miners came. to town uh to Marmet uh which is 8 miles. south of. Charleston armed uh a lot most of them. armed I imagine everyone who had a gun. had their gun gun definitely and uh they. were trying to you know avenge obviously.

the deaths of Hatfield and Chambers and. they wanted to confront uh this Sheriff. there in Logan County his name was Don. schaen and uh they also wanted and he. was a minor guy so it was sort of all in. the same bucket and they wanted to free. some miners that were jailed in Mingo. County so Governor Morgan finally steps. in and uh chaen that uh that sheriff I. was just talking about from Logan County. he got a bunch of deputies together got. a bunch of anti-union civilians together.

got their guns and got up on the ridge. line at Blair Mountain uh because the. Marchers you know heading into town had. to go through there and this was a this. was a war I mean it was several days of. uh gunfire uh Gatlin guns machine guns. rifles they had airplanes dropping. shrapnel bombs and dropping gas bombs. like gases that would make you nauseous. and stuff like that there's a guy on a. horse with a. trident I'm not going to ask if that's.

for. okay uh but it was it was several days. of like a legit real war such that the. president of the United States uh Warren. Harding had to come in and send in well. didn't come in like literally but sent. in federal troops in his stad right and. uh the union surrendered uh they were. obviously outgunned by that point but a. lot of them were uh were veterans like. army veterans and so when they called in. the army they were like I'm not going to. go to war against my Army that I served.

in right and so um even though the. miners didn't make it to hang Don. Chaffin and they didn't make it to free. the miners in Mingo County um they still. consider this a win apparently on the. way back from town or from from the. fight uh one of the miners leaned out of. a passing street car and said uh it was. Uncle Sam did it and they were saying. like we we surrendered only two federal. troops who we're sympathetic with we. didn't we didn't surrender to Balwin. felt's detectives we didn't surrender to.

chaen we didn't surrender to the mine. operators it was strictly because. federal troops came that we we said okay. because we're not going to we have no. beef with the federal government so. we're not going to fight them so it was. actually generally a it was pretty much. a win for the miners for sure and it. definitely helped um catalyze the the. organizing that went on um I saw that. right after Sid Hatfield was gunned down. um I think they reached like 90% of.

miners um had signed on for the Union in. the area um this just helped catalyze it. even further um the thing is is the the. coal minine operators didn't give up at. all they continued their tactics trying. to break strikes and um break up the. unions and they they actually proved to. be very successful there was a drop um. in Union membership from the United mind. workers Association uh from 500,000 in. 1920 shortly after the events we've just.

described to 100,000 in. 1929 not because people lost interest in. unionizing or having better working. conditions but because the mine. operators ratcheted up the heat both. politically and violently um to to make. that. happen yeah absolutely uh but while they. while the union sort of lost the battle. in that N9 period they won the overall. War eventually because what it also did.

was just sort of draw more attention to. this kind of stuff and it was you know. national news and all of these sort of. uh militant an anti-union um ideas were. um I think as far as the American public. goes were like you know this is this is. no good and FDR comes in and says like. hey guys we need a new deal and they. were like okay what should we call it. and he went how about the New Deal and. all of a sudden you know unions had a uh.

I mean I guess you could say that had an. easier time they definitely weren't. being intimidated I mean their unions. are still intimidated but not in the. ways they were in the you know turn of. the century through the 1920s yeah. remember when I said Governor Morgan was. elected um but not by any sort of. popular vote and that the will of the. people actually was Pro pro-union thanks. to the um United Mine Workers. Association and some of the other unions. that voice was elevated into National. politics and it actually ended up taking. over the show getting FDR elected and.

then working directly with FDR to get. the New Deal passed to get the labor. union strengthen to get better um. benefits and working conditions for. union members and not just union members. the unions had a um a KnockOn effect for. other workers who weren't even unionized. because it caused it forced the the mine. operators to improve conditions across. the board. so it benefited um workers who hadn't. even joined the union and the wages had.

to get competitive all of a sudden too. so that benefited everyone as well it's. really difficult to overstate the effect. that the United Mine Workers Union um. had like it was an enormously important. on the future of America yeah not just. in southern West Virginia but yes in. America they went on to form the CIO as. an AFL CIO which organized industrial. workers the people who put together. stuff using the raw material that people. like the miners um dug out of the ground.

uh and that had a huge effect as well so. it's it was a really really big deal. this these Mine Wars that took place in. southern West Virginia and the effect. that they had across the rest of the. country yeah absolutely they also went. on to found the NFL and the. NBA and the and the CW. Bryant that's right in the JM Clark uh. as far as Baldwin felt uh that company. that agency uh they operated for about. 15 years after that um not nearly as uh.

sort of union busting public eye sort of. spectacle a little quieter uh but when. Baldwin and Felts both died within a. year and a half of each other uh in 1936. they folded for good uh Rich dudes made. a ton of money obviously and uh I'd. suggest seeing matean that the John. sales movie from 1987 is really good. it's a fictionalized version uh there. are a few characters I believe uh T the.

the mayor is in it and CE Lively is in. it and a couple of others but like the. the main players like Chris Cooper is is. the lead um it's a fictionalized. character but this is really good movie. John saes is a great filmmaker yeah uh. and wrote and directed right in a nice. little postcript to all this is uh found. with C Lively apparently his usefulness. ran its course after after he was. revealed to not be an actual friend to. the miners and uh he was no longer.

employed by Baldwin Felts and by 1927 he. had gone back to Mining and was. destitute that kind of thing makes you. feel good yeah what about his. restaurant uh it was shut down for. health code violations somebody found PE. in the soup oh my gosh it was terrible. that old bag no someone put their foot. in the Brunswick stew oh my gosh you. remember that well I just uh listen to. that it's coming out as a select I. thinktime okay yeah our our foot in.

Brunswick's du. episode uh well since Chuck referenced. our foot in Brunswick's du episode I. think everybody we can all agree that. it's time for listener. mail uh I'm going to call this uh Josh. correction sorry that seems to be like a. good 50% of our our listener mail these. days well I'm I'm I don't talk as much. I'm smart I keep my my trap shut okay uh. Hey guys wanted to ride in to clear up. Josh's conception of Catalina Island it.

was my home away from home for almost 20. years uh my husband and I lived on our. 44t Sloop and have uh mored in that. Harbor many times probably even the same. Mooring where the Splender had moed in. 1981 and of course this is referencing. our Natalie Wood episode which time. uh. yeah the show so nice they released it. price that's right uh Josh depicted the. location as a place where rich people go. on their Yachts to party yacht to yacht.

in reality it's more like a camping at. an RV park boats as small as 20 ft sail. over to Twin Harbor on Catalina and the. occupants all dying at Doug Harbor's. Reef which is the only restaurant there. the city of Avalon is the south of. France type place but the ismos of. Catalina is a boers campground a couple. of things I'll chime in about one in our. experience there's never been a power. Boer that that thought twice about. disturbing their Anchorage neighbors. with flood lights and generators and. loud music and two as for the people who.

heard cries of help I wonder if they. were actually downwind or upwind of the. Splender because sound travels very well. across water perhaps the dinghy was. actually very far away when they heard. these cries just curious uh signed part. of the stuff you should know family. Kathy with a K oh I wonder if that's. Kathy with a K who gave us lassos in. Arizona oh is that Kathy with a K mhm. you know I got my lasso hanging up at. the camp still and that that tracks. people who have lassos also might have.

spent a portion of their life living on. a sailboat uh-huh so okay if that's you. Kathy with a K how are you good to hear. from you and if you're not the same. Kathy with a K good to hear from you as. well thanks for that I love being. corrected um even though you could make. a case that um partying from RV to RV at. RV park is a very celebrity thing to do. these days that's fine we'll go with. your interpretation of it all right uh. well if you want to get in touch with us. like Kathy with a K did you can send us.

an email to stuff podcast at. iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts myart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite. [Music]. shows.