The Luddites: Misunderstood Working Class Heroes | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too and we're about to break our. computers just to get in the mood for. this. episode good job my friend do you think. so because a lot of times you say like. oh that was great or a way to go or. something like that and I'm like that.

was not that good and that's a good. example of that well I don't mean that. joke I mean. the the article you put together just. like the old days oh good okay good so. it's clear you're not gaslighting me. about my jokes being good no this. article is great the joke was mid let's. do it all right let's do it so we're. talking about Lites and I think just. about everybody in the English-speaking. world and probably Beyond are familiar. with the lates to some degree or not but. just as a little background refresher.

the Lites were a group of textile. workers living at the beginning of the. 19th century in the Midlands and the. north of England which had recently. become. industrialized and they didn't like the. machines that were the new technology. for using for making textiles so they. broke them all and that's the Lites. there's nothing more to understand. there's no more Nuance to them than. that well yeah and you know I think a. lot of people uh may not even know where.

the the name came from and may just. think Lite is a word uh for someone who. is afraid of technology or hates. technology it's kind of been co-opted as. such but as we will learn you're being. koi and there is a lot of nuance and. what the Lites really were were a people. that got together some some craftsmen. and Artisans that got together and were. sort of the first workers rights people.

who very reasonably tried to make. workers rights deals in the face of the. Industrial Revolution and only turned to. this after that failed yeah so the this. was the first instance of capitalism. kind of steamrolling over labor the. owners steamrolling steamrolling over. yeah steamrolling over labor and Labor's. rights and basically taking care of. Labor and being um Equitable and fair. and profit sharing the first instance. and so they were the first people to. fight against it and sadly they were the.

first people to lose that battle first. of many yeah they were the the Bernie. Bros of the day so let's go back way. back not all the way back let's just go. back to 2012 chuck oh sure because I. like this anecdote yeah yeah that was. the summer of Olympics that I believe uh. Danny Bole uh curated the opening. ceremony and all that stuff that year. right yeah the 2012 London Olympics. Summer Olympics in the opening ceremony.

there was kind of a a super brief. synopsis of English History yeah that's. what you do yeah it was really great. just like France did right exactly um so. there's this moment in the opening. ceremonies where the people all mve from. the countryside to the city and if I. remember correctly I'm doing this from. memory they were hearkened by men in. black suits wearing stove top or. stovepipe hats okay and what that.

represented was the beginning of. industrialization like we tend to think. of the Industrial Revolution here in. America is happening here in America. that was the second one the first one. had taken place 100 to 50 years before. in England specifically in the north of. England in like towns like Manchester. and Liverpool and the reason that. everybody was being called from the. countryside to the city figuratively and. literally was because that's where the. machines are the new machines that have. been perfected using steam power that.

could um automate all sorts of different. processes that used to have to be done. by hand they were big and they were. cumbersome and they were expensive so. rather than people doing stuff in their. home anymore they had to go to where the. machines are to do work now that was a. radical change yeah a big change and. that same change you know we've talked. about plenty of times in terms of our. American Experience here but like you. said it happened previously in England. same deal people from the country moving. into the city.

steam power running the show and the. first industry over there to kind of get. smashed in the face with that new. reality was the textile industry uh and. they're in the Midlands of of England am. I even saying that right because we're. about to say a lot of shes I think it's. pronounced the mid it's spelled Midlands. but it's pronounced werer. right but all over that area uh. Yorkshire derbish.

Lester. Lancashire Nottinghamshire MH chesher. yeah the chesher cat okay did I get all. those why. is Lester the only one that's not. pronouncing the sh it is that's Lester. sure oh did I say it wrong to begin with. then no no you just left off the sh and. so just a little note because I didn't. understand this until I finally just. went and looked it up like Lester is the. main town the county seat if you will of. the larger County of leester so when.

there's a suffix of sh I on the end of a. town name that refers to the county and. the town is usually the biggest town or. the main town in that. county finally clear that up so in those. areas this is where the textile Artisans. and you know they were workers they were. craft people trades people uh they went. through sort of that traditional route. where you're an apprentice you learn the. craft they have these robot us trade.

unions and guilds that made sure the. quality of the uh the worker was up to. Snuff the quality of the product and the. materials were all up to Snuff and they. had this good deal going with the. merchant class up to that point where. these wealthy merchants basically funded. the operations and then split the. profits they would say here we're going. to put a loom in your house these hand. looms aren't too huge they can fit in. your barn uh we're going to give you. some good high quality uh materials to.

spin and we'll split the profits in a. way that works for both of us and they. had a good life they were like working. three or four days a week at home uh and. like you know making textiles and and. earning a good living yeah so and there. was a quote from a guy named William. Gardner who was a stocking maker at the. time which was a huge industry right at. the beginning or up until the beginning. of the um Industrial Revolution and he. said the year was checkered with. holidays wake which are festivals held.

in honor of Patron Saints and fairs it. was not one dull round of Labor and like. it was just a much more leisurely life. than what was about to come and the. thing that's so gripping about the. beginning of the Industrial Revolution. and specifically the the initial. disruption in the textile industry is. that it happened overnight I mean we're. talking the span of like maybe 10 12 15. years people went from they just worked.

at home 3 or 4 days a week to having to. work 12 to 13 hour days s days a week in. a factory just to make less money than. they had been making before at home yeah. and the other thing too was this wasn't. like uh the the beginning of automation. there had been Automation in textile uh. manufacturing for a little while um at. this point but and this is very key. Queen Elizabeth 1 saw the writing on the. wall way back in the day and said hey.

William Lee you want a patent for this. machine uh you can't have one cuz that's. going to put too many people out of work. uh so it's very interesting that you. know long before this happened uh you. know with the with the leites Queen. Elizabeth The First like saw what was. coming yeah that was pretty preent for. sure um and so so yes that's a big. misconception people are like these. machines just came up out of nowhere and. all of a sudden it just disrupted. everything no the machines have been. there for hundreds of years what changed.

was the way that the machines were used. and that they were improved along the. way like the machine that William Lee. invented in 1580 compared to the. machines that were being used in 1780 or. 1800 or 1810 were pretty different the. ones that came later were much much. better and that there were a bunch of. different machines that were used in the. weaving textile creation process that. had all become improved enough that you. could put them all together and have and. create a mill that was a that was part.

one of why this all kind of happened at. the time that it did yeah I mean you you. know if you have a factory it can't just. be the machine that makes the thing you. need all the other machines to automate. that process as well if you want a. really efficient system right uh and so. that's what happened uh one of the other. things that happened to kind of you know. and again we keep saying steamroll or. steam power but this thing was full full. steam. ahead stop when Adam when Adam Smith. wrote a book uh in 1776 called an.

inquiry into the nature and causes of. The Wealth of Nations no colon no and. we've talked a lot about Adam Smith on. the show and he was the guy that. basically said hey you know what uh free. Market's the way to go lasair economics. is the way to go let people stay out of. things let the market work it out let. the the manufacturers and the business. owners work it out with the workers and. the merchant class like why splitting on. these profits like you should be keeping.

the Lion Share of this stuff and the. merchant class was like I love this book. yeah and to be fair to Adam Smith like. he wasn't advocating for workers to get. completely screwed over he his arguments. and his ideas and his his um theory of. free market competition were interpreted. in a way by the merchant class to mean. that they should be self-interested and. maximize profits as much as they could. he wasn't he wasn't n necessarily.

expressly saying that he almost seems to. have been a little naive or at the very. least he would he didn't predict the way. that his theory would be used I think oh. I mean I think that's exactly the thing. was he thought when he was saying it'll. work itself out he wasn't saying to the. benefit of few and the detriment of many. he was saying they'll all just kind of. like as we will see the England did they. were kind of like hey you guys will work. this out and we should just stay out of. it and I'm sure you'll come to a fair. agreement yeah so kind of I guess kind.

of like the pendulum's going to swing. this way and then it'll swing back that. way and that way and they'll finally. just settle in the middle but the. pendulum ended up swinging one way. toward owners management capital and. just got stuck there midair and has been. there ever since yeah that's a pendulum. what do you call a pendulum that doesn't. swing anymore um a stick sounds like a. riddle okay so we got to stick now um so. there was a third Factor too and that. was the economic background of England. and the turn of the 19th century it was.

in a big a really big recession at the. time yeah they had been at war with. Napoleon for a long time uh that's going. to drain your you know your resources as. a as a nation uh and then they also. because they were at war with France had. blockades against each other would shut. down a big trade partner um those. markets that were open to those. merchants in England were suddenly close. and it hit everyone across the board in. England like there was uh like families.

were going hungry for the first time in. a long time yeah people who had been. able to escape you know previous. recessions were getting hit hard so the. reason that this is important is that. first of all now you have Desperate. workers who are in a situation that they. need help um which puts them in a. disadvantage and then at the same time. you also have a good reason especially. now that everyone's read The Wealth of. Nations um for the the owners of these. Looms what were the merchant class and.

are about to become the first. industrialists they have a good reason. to replace workers with automated. machines because profits are starting to. dwindle you want to maximize profits so. that's a really great way to do it. replace a bunch of people who you have. to pay like a fair wage to with some. machines that you just pay for up front. and then hire some teenager to make sure. it keeps running and pay him peanuts for. doing so boy this was really the. beginning of the downfall of everything. because this is the beginning of hey man.

this stuff's not going to be as good but. who cares we can make it for cheap and. we can sell it for cheaper and if they. wear out people can just buy another. cheap version of it that we'll make uh. it it's like this was the beginning of. the drop of uh and craftsmanship and. quality and everything I think that's. why I find this period so fascinating. cuz it our modern world was created like. here in this like decade actually just a. few years really and it's funny that you.

say the quality of goods went down. because I've seen more than once it. argued that the thing that really. sparked the Lite movement was not the. new technology was not the unfair. treatment was not the poor wages it was. the decline in the quality of what was. being produced what formerly like socks. essentially stockings what had been. produced before with great craftsmanship. and sold at a fair price was now being. made really cheaply and sold cheaply and. that that's what really set off the. people who were in The textile industry.

to basically Riot later on yeah I mean. what it did was it put them in a. position where they were you know if you. wanted to stay out of that and remain. because it's not like every single small. you know business textile uh craft. person went out of business overnight. like they were like I could keep this. open like I actually own my own Loom but. now I have to you know use cheaper goods. and sell them cheaper if I want to keep. up or you know just give up and go work. for them and neither one of those were. good prospects no no because there were.

zero regulations at the outside of this. so the mill owners just did whatever. they wanted and you could either go out. on the street and starve or you could. come work for me under my terms and so. the work in the Mills was really. difficult they kept it really damp in. there so tuberculosis would run rampant. and kill a bunch of people um the fabric. like little particles of fabric could. give you lung damage the machines Al. together were really loud so they could. give you hearing damage and the machines. were really dangerous too like people.

would lose their lives including. children that again were working 13. 14-hour days 7 days a week at the Mill. yeah and they didn't need those Artisans. anymore because they could train a. 17-year-old to run these automated uh. you know the automated machinery and. this was like you know this was the. birth of capitalism when equality went. down prices went down um fewer and fewer. workers getting paid less for more work. and the people that own the joint.

getting rich right but the and I think. for those of us alive today because. capitalism was birthed this way a lot of. people are like well capitalism doesn't. work it's inherently exploitive that's. not true it was just born that way it. doesn't have to be that way but it was. born that way and it was allowed to. remain that way and grow up that way so. that it it's just so commonplace now. that people think like that's the only. way it can be and I firmly believe that. there's a Equitable way to do capital. just not doing it that that's what the.

issue is and that that's this is where. that. started yeah that ship is sailed my. friend that is not moving disagree oh. you think there's going to be a big. change in that I think yeah I think. there can be I'm not saying there. definitely will be but I think that. there's there's the potential for it. sure I don't think it's completely it's. just going to be that way forever not. necessarily it could be but I don't. think that is definitely going to be. that's my take all right well I admire. your optimism so shall we take a break.

yeah all. [Music]. right all right one thing uh that we. mentioned in act one uh you like that. fancying the up a little bit we forgot. to introduce the gun that goes off in.

act. three oh that's right you know what I. found out who that was that was COV that. said that. yeah you finally found that out. sure I thought it was you no are you. serious you thought that was me no I. knew it was kind of like a a Trope but I. didn't know that checkov had come up. with it I'm I guess I'm not so familiar. with 19th century plays as you well you. probably never took drama class or dumb. uh English classes where you read dramas.

well what's sad is I was a tried and. true drama kid in in high school so yeah. we just didn't do any check off it was. all slapstick comedy in my high. school well if the rubber chicken is. introduced in Act One it comes back to. life and kills everyone in act. three uh all right where was I okay act. one when we spoke of the the. misconception that Lites are afraid of. Technology um and hinted a little. further about what I'm going to say now.

which is um they tried to uh they tried. to work it out they weren't like oh my. gosh industrialization's happening we. need to fight it tooth and nail they. were more like hey it looks like this is. happening so let's uh you know there's. going to be a man one day named Josh. Clark who will believe that this can. still happen um we want to make it fair. for everyone so like we'll do this we'll. do this work give us a minimum wage make. these working conditions safe uh maybe.

tax these Goods some to create these. pensions for people that you're. definitely putting out of work and let's. like just roll this out slowly let's not. just uh Go full steam ahead here and. give people time to like learn how to do. something else and they went nope nope. nope nope nope yeah and that's just so. contrary to what people think of as the. Lites today I mean if you even know. about the leites Beyond you know the. modern use of the word that there was an. actual group you probably still don't. think that they were a reasonable group.

that's not exactly what they're known. for because they broke a bunch of. machines but that was exactly their. initial response they want it in but. they want it in Fairly um yeah and so. like you said the the responses to the. request were no no no no no and it. wasn't just the factory and Mill owners. that were saying no they the government. was also saying no and essentially when. the workers went to Parliament when um. some labor friendly. parliamentarians MPS tried to get um.

legislation passed that kind of helped. workers um be treated more fairly they. it just did not pass and the the idea. was the reasoning was among Parliament. that anything we would do would just. screw things up like any regulations we. we we create are just going to hamper. business maybe put business people out. of business their employees are going to. be out on the street and so a job where. you're exploited is preferable to no job.

at all and since any meddling we might. do will will possibly cause you to lose. your job we just not going to get. involved yeah but they did get involved. but they got involved for the other side. yeah big time uh in 1799 they passed the. combination acts which um outlawed the. trade gills that had kept them you know. protected up into that point uh it. stopped them from collective bargaining. it outlawed strikes so they took away. basically any tool they would have to.

you know get fair treatment and better. wages and uh and this is another key. Point too was they had had machines. before we talked about that uh Queen. Elizabeth you know not granting the. patent but the machines were still. around uh since the mid 1700s and some. of those machines had been broken in the. past in protest uh but they uh augmented. this law basically on the books that. said hey if you start up with that stuff. again. you're going to go to The Gallows and be.

hanged in front of the Town yeah so just. to kind of put that into perspective. today imagine if. hacking carried the death penalty that's. kind of akin to what it what it was like. but even more simplified than that it'd. be more like um breaking the computer. that your employer gave you when you. were hired like on purpose going or. going into an Apple store with a crowbar. but imagine that that carried the. penalty yeah so when you put all of that.

together the government Parliament was. essentially saying get to work and. whatever the mill owners tell you to do. you're going to do it and if you try to. resist you got us to deal with that's. that's the way things are that's. essentially what Parliament said as the. uh leites and the textile workers who. would become leites were trying to. approach this from a reasonable manner. yeah absolutely uh and that started you. know a couple of years of what the. leites are known for for busting these.

machines up and and more which we'll get. to but um you know they pointed to uh. the previous you know uh couple hundred. years earlier when they had already been. breaking machines and that stuff. happened but it just kind of came and. went uh the Lites were organized there. were a lot more of them they were super. coordinated um one historian that you. found said that you know talked about. how well branded they were uh because. they were they were known as something. they were known as Lites uh ironically.

leaderless even though supposedly um. this what by all accounts is an urban. legend named Ned lud was their leader. yeah so just a little on Ned lud um it's. it's pretty clear that Ned lud. especially as leader of the Lites never. existed he was. fictitious um it's possible that there. was somebody named Edward Lam who was. the real life person that Ned l became. based on but the story of the whole.

thing the story of Ned L um is that in. 1779 a young I think he was a weaver. named Ned lud was either told by his. father or boss whoever he was working. for at the time to tighten his needles. or Square his needles which means. tighten his weave or he was told to. create um. cheaper um a cheaper product faster. either way in a fit of rage he broke his. Loom he broke the machine that he was.

working on and protest so this was. 1779 and by the time the 1811 rolls. around which is when the Lites really. started to rise up Ned L was kind of. like this catchall in the textile. Community anytime something happened to. a loom uh it broke it was purposely. broken it was just kind of like Ned L. did it you're going to hate this analogy. so I'm sorry in advance but it was kind. of like the family circus kids I to know. yeah I love it oh wow that was.

surprising I like my teeth were clenched. waiting for your response yeah I. couldn't remember cuz there were other. examples of that of like a madeup person. of like so and so did it that weren't. even real people I just can't think of. them so Family Circus is the Perfect. Analogy okay great well thank you I was. wow I was not expecting this I'm going. to have to take a break here for a. second I mean I hate the Family Circus. still you didn't win me over okay but I. love the ref everything things back to. normal good but regardless Ned lud was.

kind of this urban legend um went by you. know King lud Captain lud uh General L. but all of this was the idea that he was. the leader of the Lites uh when there. was no clear leader uh I mean you know. in different places depending where it. was taking place there were of course. people who might have led the charge uh. that night or for that operation but. there was no like central leader yet. they remained like highly organized yeah. I mean like the Lites were an actual.

group that spread across the Midlands. and into Yorkshire from 1811 to 1813. some people say 1816 because there was. another Uprising that year but really. the the blite revolution took place from. 1811 to 1813 and um there there it was a. group of people of textile workers who. had sworn a secret oath to this. organization but like you said it was. decentralized there was no nedl but they. were so organized that the British. government and the officials and the.

mill owners who were trying to to break. up this. organization um believed that there very. much was a nedl there had to be a nedl. because who else was leading these. people and stirring up unrest that was. spreading across the the northern part. of the country so I don't even think we. mentioned like the very first thing that. happened uh that was in March of 1811. when a group of you know these these. what would be known as leites a little. bit later on took to the streets. uh in protest of course of their pay.

their working uh conditions uh the. British troops came in broke it up and. they dispersed but they came back later. that night and that was the first night. of this new like hey let's break. everything they went to a mill they they. trashed everything inside and that was. sort of the first uh rubber chicken. fired in this new round of busting stuff. up yeah that was March um the next big. thing that happened was in November. there was a um a group of Lites who.

attacked the home of Edward. Hollingsworth who was um an owner of. several automatic looms he was I guess. kind of like a Craftsman Merchant all. rolled into one the the reason that he. was Target is because he was using those. looms to make these new cheap stockings. that had just completely undermined the. entire stocking trade and so they they. broke all of the Looms in the guy's. house and left um and Edward where. hollingworth is like well at least they.

didn't burn my house down right and then. a week later the Lites came back and. burned his house down yeah that was uh. yeah seemed like a little much but it. was a a vengeful act that happened. because they were bad yeah and so we. should say there's a like a lot of. attacks like this between 1811 and 1813. and it all started in Nottingham sure um. in Nottingham specifically um and the. just kind of spread it was a great idea.

among these pent up angry textile. workers whose entire worlds had just. been upended so it spread very very. easily um and it was I think in a. December issue of the Nottingham review. that the story of Ned L was told and. that's when they became known as the. Lites and so these these textile workers. like I said they swore a secret oath to. to protect this organization with their. lives and in doing so they swore an to. like you said King l or general L um and.

of course the textile workers knew that. Ned L didn't exist and they kind of. underscore that they placed his base of. operations in Sherwood Forest in. Nottingham which Probably sounds. familiar to anybody who's seen any. version of Robin Hood yes very cheeky. thing to do for sure uh one of the other. misconceptions is that the leites were. so angry that they just trashed. everything with Reckless abandon and. went after everyone one and tried to. wreck all these factories um that wasn't.

the case they were very targeted uh. anyone that was known to be like a good. boss and a good Factory owner who. treated their employees more fairly uh. they did not go and trash their Factory. um the people who were known to be. especially bad and egregious violators. of workers rights they were targeted um. but they even got letters beforehand uh. a lot of times that were like hey. uh you got a chance here to change.

things um otherwise um next week we're. going to trash your factory um or move. those things out of there make some. changes or it's happening and they they. would not do that sometimes they would. try and move their their Machinery out. of there but because these were kind of. workingclass Heroes uh they would get. tipped off on when these Caravans were. doing that and so in the middle of the. night they would intercept these. Caravans and you know get them out there. instead of in the factory I just see the. mill owners trying to remove their Looms. in the middle of the night like oo.

trying to escape in Beetle Juice have. you seen the new trailer yet for the new. one no and I don't want to see it I just. want to go into that movie completely. unaware of everything well you should I. mean it looks like. Beetlejuice hope I didn't spoil it yes. you. did um you didn't that's fine but I yeah. I'm very excited about seeing that no. same here uh I wanted to see that. Broadway play but it went away did it. yeah supposed to be really good so I. don't know if it just had its running.

stops or what I'll bet is playing in New. Mexico somewhere well I think there is a. traveling version so maybe it'll come. through at New. Mexico so they were breaking uh looms at. a rate of about 175 a month this got. very costly for uh you know the. Machinery replacement cost uh. productivity not happening not you know. putting out these stockings and socks. and things mhm and in 1812 things really. really changed for the scarier and maybe.

that's a good time for another break. sure I was not expecting that but yes. all right we'll keep everyone on the. edge of their uh stockings and we'll be. right back. [Music].

okay Chuck so you said 1812 was kind of. like a watershed year and definitely was. things got much more violent essentially. the the Lites and the Lite movement as. it was spreading across the Midlands and. into Yorkshire um became like engaged in. allout war with Mill owners um and it. could be you know a handful of them. wearing masks and carrying swords and. muskets that would attack a a you know. someone's house and break all their. looms it could be 2,000 of them um like.

what happened in one attack uh in March. I believe or it could be a couple of. hundreds um one of the most famous was. called the Battle of raw fold's Mill in. huttersfield in West Yorkshire and there. were between 100 and 200 depending on. who you ask former workers of that Mill. who stormed it one night um and it just. got super violent yeah because these. owners had had enough they start hiring. armed guards like mercenaries basically.

to Stand By and Watch with their rifles. and there was a gun battle two uh I. believe two of the Lites were shot um. they later died they retaliated they um. assassinated William horsefall which was. uh a really sort of ardent anti- Luddite. he had talked about riding up to his. saddle gers and Luddite blood and so. they went after him assassinated him. uh in a bar I think he ended up dying a.

couple of days later but they they shot. him in the thighs the hip and the. testicles and not that that's funny I. don't know why I laughed but it just. seemed like a particularly egregious. thing to do and uh they took him back to. the bar where he was had been spouting. off and drinking and he died there a. couple of days later something ironic. about that is that horsefall when he. left that bar initially before he got. shot he had just bought a round of. drinks for some of his workers yeah talk. about iron. yeah um one other thing to know about.

the Lites is that their secret was not. only kept by them but by the communities. that they came from you might think like. okay these guys are burning down Mills. and breaking machines they're putting. people out of work and that's absolutely. true they also would go into people's. homes and requisition weapons to use for. raids and yet almost universally they. were beloved and um kept secret by the. local communities and that's evidenced. by the the army of spies that the. British government sent in to try to.

break up this movement who could get. nowhere they got nothing and as a matter. of fact the spies started reporting back. that there was such a person as nedl. they got so their their efforts were. just that frustrated yeah so they've s. in spies they're getting nowhere they re. there's there's actual Bloodshed. happening now uh at a at a quicker rate. and so they're like we got to do. something we have to get involved. militarily uh and they sent in troops uh. initially just to sort of quiet things.

down um they had 14,000 troops stationed. in the Midlands in Yorkshire they had. more people stationed there than they. had fighting the war with Napoleon at. the time that's crazy um they you know. they they had some sort of effect but. they didn't completely like break the. movement up and so they finally said all. right remember that death penalty. stipulation we put in there about going. into the Apple store with a crowbar. we're going to start enforc foring that. and they started hanging uh dozens of.

leites in public after Hasty trials uh. sometimes even. teenagers uh and that was what really. got everyone's attention that they could. be put to death for this yeah there was. one particularly Grim Day in Lancashire. where I think they hanged 14 Lites. including like you said a teenager a. 16-year-old who'd only acted as a. lookout for one of the raids and they. were clear making an example out of. these people these were very public.

trials very public hangings um they. built special Gallows so they could hang. multiple people at the same time like. they were the British government was. saying like keep we're just going to. keep doing this we're going to kill you. if we catch you so you better stop and. that's what finally worked um other. people by the way were transported to. Australia sometimes for life um they. would just take them there and be like. you're Australian now good for them. right all of that put together the fact. that now the one remaining tool they had.

in their toolbox to try to fight for um. equal treatment or at least better. treatment at at work was now like they. would get the death penalty for that. that finally broke up the Lite movement. uh around. 183 yeah and they had about another. dozen years of uh you know pretty bad. treatment until finally the there was a. bit of a wakeup call for the British. government and in 1824 Parliament said. you know what maybe unions are a decent. idea after all uh they repeal that ban.

on unions um but you know like I said. that ship had sailed there was no. putting the genie back into the bottle. at this point uh and the you know like. we mentioned a few times the popular. sort of view of Lites these days is not. entirely right uh they they didn't hate. the technology they tried to work things. out in a fair way they tried to stand up. for workers rights very early on um and. it seems like a lot of sort of the. rewriting of that uh came from a a.

novelist and scientist named CP snow who. looks like it was the first person to. kind of cast them as you know. anti-technology which was reinforced. again in the 70s um in new scientists. and other Publications yeah so at least. by the 70s if not earlier Lites were now. synonymous with being afraid usually uh. irrationally afraid of technology or the. future or in some cases you were anti-. capitalist is another way that some.

people use it right and that that lasted. that way for a while until Thomas. pinchon the famous author of gravity's. rainbow among others uh in 1984 he wrote. an essay essentially saying like I'm not. so sure we should scoff at Lites um he. wrote an essay called is it okay to be a. lite and basically said if you stop and. look around at the way that technolog is. going maybe we should be a little bit. afraid maybe we should start questioning. some of this stuff and in 1984 he made a.

warning about like you really want to. keep your eye on artificial intelligence. in 84 and what's really interesting is. around 2023 I think there was an author. named Brian Merchant who wrote a book. called blood in the machine and he. essentially said he did he didn't cite. pinchon I don't think I haven't read the. books possibly did but essentially what. he was saying is that what pinchon. predicted has now come to roost that AI. is starting to creep closer and closer. to this creating a world that's even.

more upended even more quickly putting. even more people out of work than what. happened to the textile workers the. Lites at the beginning of the 19th. century yeah and he said and then there. shall be a Justine baitman who is the. new Thomas pinchon what you know we've. talked about it before she's the actor. Justine baitman from Family Ties of. course she's sort of the the leading. voice in Hollywood. um fighting against you know AI.

destroying Hollywood gotcha yeah so yeah. that's one thing that people are. questioning um I mean just that when. chat GPT came out it was like I we know. companies that actually fired people. they're like oh good we can fire you now. first chance they got right so um it is. worth questioning and that's what. merchant and some of these neolites are. saying they're like we should stop and. say like okay where's this technology. going who exactly is making this. technology that's going to totally. change our world how can we protect.

people who are about to lose their jobs. all the same questions the Lites asked. at the beginning of the 19th century and. then face the death penalty for trying. to do something about and the most. ironic thing Chuck the most ironic thing. of all is the people who are questioning. where artificial intelligence are going. are being branded as Lites. Y and that's our show uh we're going to. do a Q&A I know that is how we end live. shows but not episodes but it was just. too perfect man yeah no that was a very.

live showy ending we just uh don't have. our traditional handshake afterward we. even held for Applause for a second we. did I heard none uh so I'm taking it you. got nothing else right I got nothing. else all right well if you want to know. more about Lites go read about them read. about neolites read about everything you. can uh and since I said that it's time. for listener. mail uh this is from cash and this is. about Dr Bronner and this is going to. include we'll do a little business plug.

for cash too okay uh hey guys just. listen to the Dr Bronner's episode and. thought of a use that you guys didn't. mention and maybe would get a kick out. of it is a fantastic insecticidal soap. uh I run a small gardening business in. Portland Maine one of our favorite towns. uh that focuses on designing and. creating Gardens that don't require much. human input and no chemical input uh. generally I don't treat pests and that's. even in quotes uh and let nature run his. course but for the particularly tough.

ones like uh scale and viburnum Leaf. Beetle I treat with Dr Bronner's diluted. with one six water with a spray bottle. uh works wonders and has no negative. ecological impacts love the show you. guys are great company on my long days. working alone and hey if you are in. Portland Maine or nearby check out cash. at founder Opus fine Gardens well thanks. a lot cash and we are happy to plug your. business and if you want to be like cash. and send us an interesting email and.

plug your business at the same time we. are happy to do that email us at stuff. podcast iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts my heart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].