The Life and Works of J.D. Salinger | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh there's Chuck Jerry's here too we. just VA to be. alone which makes the stuff you should. know that's right that was Greta Garbo. doing JD Salinger oh i' never heard that. you never heard Greta Garbo say that.

I've want to be alone no I haven't oh. yeah another recluse right yes that's. why I said that she could really. probably identify with JD. Salinger yeah what Salinger have you. read if any I read uh for Esme with love. and squalor as recently as last night. and that was. it it's good huh it was great I actually. feel like um I really missed out not. reading. Salinger 20 years ago or 30 years ago.

something like that I just didn't and uh. I don't know why um but yeah he was. really good yeah I was an English major. so I read a lot of his stuff um catcher. in the Ry was one that I I'm actually. due because I would I was doing a thing. where I was kind of rereading it every. 10 years or so uh because that's a book. where and your perspective as a reader. can really uh change how you view the. book uh and I found that After I reread.

it the second time and I was like hey. wait a minute I should reread this thing. like every decade or so so I'm. definitely due uh and then I read uh. Nine Stories I read almost all of the. glass family stuff I read most of the. stuff that was popular and widely. available and wasn't just like you know. something in the New Yorker that you. know was never put in book form or. whatever right so I read a lot of stuff. yeah and it sounds like your. relationship with Salinger is um kind of. kind of mirrors my relationship with the.

early works of Adam. Sandler we rewatched heavy Gilmore. probably every 10 years to to revisit it. see how it's changed perspective because. I've changed you. know that's really funny but uh Adam. Sandler isn't as uh complicated and uh. potentially Troublesome and problematic. as JD Salinger was as a person and we. we'll get to all that stuff that sounds. like the somebody who has n really.

looked into Adam Sandler's early works. oh okay so U yeah I had no idea about. the the problematic of JD Salinger I. just knew he was a revered writer a. recluse and um now I I realized like he. was a really great writer too in the. most. approachable way but the thing that. struck me about reading about JD. Salinger which is one of my favorite. things to do like reading about a good. movie or reading about an author. something like that so I got to do that.

researching this episode one of the. things that struck me is as approachable. and almost like folksy as his his. writing is uhhuh he is beloved by like. Literati types as well yeah normally he. would be poo pooed and looked down upon. and I think maybe he was during his. career his actual career by some of the. more like Literati types but today he's. as revered as anybody um maybe even more. so because I think there's also.

a bit of affection that people hold for. him in his writing in addition to you. know feeling reverent toward it yeah and. I also think the disappearing act uh. added a lot to his Legend I mean I'm I'm. not the only one that thinks that but. it's impossible to say what that would. have looked like had he just kept. publishing stuff and stayed in the. public eye but when you disappear you're. going to add a lot of Mystique uh and. interest I think yeah exactly and by by. the way if you hear some distant.

construction noise today there's nothing. I can do about that oh I hope that came. through in the crane episode I don't. think it did so um yeah if you've never. heard of JD Salinger we should probably. give you a little background he. published The Catcher And The Ry in. 1951 it dropped like a neutron bomb on. America and essentially created the. current popular image of a. teenager um especially disaffected. disillusioned teenagers who are starting. to realize like the world is not what.

they've been told it is their entire. lives up to that point phony perhaps he. started that yeah phony he used that. word a lot yeah phony and it's hilarious. it's a hilarious word especially when. you use it earnestly yeah I agree I like. it but that was like um the the. protagonist of Catcher in The Rise. probably his favorite word Holden. caulfield's favorite word was phony and. that's pretty much all you need to know. we can end the episode here really or we. could go back to when he was born sure.

uh Jerome David Salinger in Manhattan. New York in 1919 on New Year's Day uh to. Miriam Salinger and soul Salinger uh he. has a sister named or had a sister named. Doris that was seven years older uh that. he remained close to and he was he was. sunny to his parents and his sister uh. his dad was Jewish and was. a he was an executive he was not he. worked for a meat and cheese importing. business and was not super close to his.

son he didn't get his writing he was. sort of that you know kind of what you. would think of the 1920s and 30s father. who just wasn't much of a father wasn't. around much uh didn't put a lot didn't. invest a lot of time in his in his. children uh while his mom Miriam was the. opposite she was a very doting mother uh. Irish Catholic Woman Who Loved Sunny uh. young JD thought he was going to be a. great writer uh he he would joke at one.

point to his friend that uh she walked. me to school until I was 24 years old. dedicated catcher to his mom and there's. this very sweet story that Dave found he. read a full biography I think of him uh. for this episode but uh when he was 18. he was working uh at writing he wrote. from the time he was very young and his. mom slipped a little message under the. door that said I accept your story. consider it a masterpiece check for. $11,000 in the mail Curtis Publishing. Company.

pretty neat pretty great um yeah so he. was raised I guess upper middle class um. and I mean like that's a that's a pretty. typical like um combination like a a. distant father and a doting mom yeah. that produces a certain kind of kid and. it seemed to have produced JD Salinger. pretty pretty predictably but the fact. that he grew up on Park Avenue in. Manhattan and went to Camp with other. Jewish kids every summer like he had. like a a very typical.

um I guess childhood but that seemed to. have converged with like a a pretty. sensitive um type like a he was a. sensitive person and that allowed him to. kind of see things for you know what. they really were and he also had a. talent for putting that into. understandable language and all that put. together made him the the amazing writer. that he became yeah absolutely uh he. would end up going by Jerry to his.

friends and uh people that he knew. personally and enrolled initially at a. place called MC Bernie preparatory. school a private school on the upper. west side and he was he was kind of a. kind of a wiseacre uh little sardonic a. little sarcastic he did not make great. grades uh they pulled him out after his. sophomore year and sent him to military. school Valley Forge Military Academy in. Pennsylvania and this was a direct model. for if you've read catcher in the Ry of.

Holden caulfield's pincy Prep School uh. it was a very kind of autobiographical. in some ways take uh you know we'll also. talk about some ways where he diverged. from Holden callfield for sure but he. was a big he like he did great that was. one of the big differences is Holden. Caulfield was not happy at pincy prep. and it seemed that JD Salinger really. got a lot out of Valley Forge and was. very very active yeah he was he joined. the drama club he found acting which. apparently was something I think he. discovered acting at Camp one year and.

was like I love this so he did every. play he possibly could at Valley Forge. uh he was the editor of the yearbook I. mean like you know disaffected isolated. types don't usually become editors of. the yearbook at their school um it was a. real um distinction between his. experience and Hogan caulfield's. experience um when he got the college. though it was a different story um and. probably because Valley Forge was was. very structured and rigid and he knew.

what to expect and he thrived in that as. we'll see he also seemed to have thrived. fairly well in the Army um in college. one of the first things you realize is. like nobody's keeping tabs on you like. you have to motivate yourself to get up. and go to class and that can be really. difficult it's difficult for everybody. at first typically but it can be like. like a non-starter for some people who. are ironically. non-starters yeah I remember in college.

I was eager and I was all in but you. skip your first class and then you're. like oh wait a minute you can do that. and nobody nobody yeah you hid out in. your apartment the whole day waiting to. get in trouble and nobody came sometimes. the teachers keep track I remember in. college some of them kept uh certain. amount of absences were allowed or. whatever but some didn't at all the big. classes and yeah and the teachers like. hey you don't have to be here if you. don't want to yeah it's like it's to. your detriment and you will learn that. you'd be like why did you have to say. last part it was going so well he found.

that like you said at College he went to. NYU but there in Gren Village there were. too many other things going on uh at. that time he flunked out and his father. was like all right you should get into. business like you know follow your old. man into the meat and cheese business so. he shipped him off to uh Poland in 1937. to study under the bacon king of Poland. not the Sausage King of. Chicago and S was like this is gross uh.

I'm not doing this he went to Vienna and. lived with a Jewish Family and fell in. love he learned German and fell in love. with their daughter and very sadly uh. that family did not make it through the. war he left in 1938 just before the. Nazis uh came into power and that family. did not survive and he wrote a uh a. short story a sort of fictionalized. version of that many years later called. a girl I knew yeah he tried College. again um he went to a place called.

urenus Urus urenus that's what I'm going. with near Valley for in Pennsylvania and. um didn't work out again uh he then he. when he came back home he said all right. I'm just going to become a writer and. his mom was like all right that's cool. and his dad was like no you're going to. get in the ham and cheese business like. I said and apparently they came up with. a compromise that he would take uh. writing classes at NY or colia I can't.

remember which one I think colia and he. locked out by taking a class by uh given. by the editor Whit Bernett and Whit. Bernett had a a knack along with his. wife who also edited this magazine story. magazine his wife hiy or Haley um they. had discovered or would go on to. discover some pretty like a pretty. amazing stable of writers if you ask me. yeah for sure you should go ahead you. such a great setup set yourself up oh oh. thanks uh there was Williams comma.

Tennessee MH Truman. capot who is well known for his um his. Rough and Tumble westerns and Norman. maylor who wrote uh The. Jeffersons yeah if you've got you've got. Norman maylor Truman kabot Tennesse. Williams and JD Salinger on your list of. writers you've discovered uh you're. doing pretty well yeah that's not. amazing like they. basically discovered the who two of 20th. Century men writers yeah absolutely so.

uh he at um what how did you say it. ursus uh yeah yeah at ursus it was sort. of like other college he wasn't taking. it super seriously uh until one day as. The Story Goes uh Whit Bernett was. reading aloud the fauler short story. that Evening Sun and he didn't uh. apparently didn't like read it very. dramatically he just sort of read it. straight uh just read the words as they.

were and. Salinger something about that really. grabbed a hold of him and he said this. is the way forward for me I want to. write in a way that doesn't get in the. way of a reader I want I want the reader. to discover the emotion and the meaning. uh by reading it and you know maybe a. podcaster one day will read catcher the. Ry every 10 years and take a different. meaning because I haven't explicitly. sort of said what the meaning is um and.

like you were saying that his writing. was uh it wasn't fancy it was very sort. of plain and accessible and that's I. think why he got through to so many. people yeah the thing is is is I I don't. know if it's is attention to detail or. his eye for detail or his his ability to. describe things in detail without. becoming bogged down by them who knows. but the that I just think that such an. amazing Epiphany to realize that. probably up to that point he'd been. trying to lead readers along around by.

the nose feel this like you should be. feeling this right now just instead to. to realize like no you can write in a. way where you leave it up to the reader. like yeah that's probably one of the. best epiphanies a writer can possibly. have and you don't I haven't run across. that very often like it's rare I think. to see there's a. specific. Epiphany that creates the writer that. everybody comes to love that's not not. everybody has that kind of thing yeah he.

he stopped ending every chapter with get. it what's funny is he didn't he he. decided to just kind of get out of the. reader way and let them figure it out. for themselves but he was also the king. of italics to emphasize points like oh. this word this is an important word this. what italic says and he used italics. like constantly yeah um so he uh failed. that class but he re-enrolled in that. same class uh this time with a little. more spunk I think and gave Bernett some.

of his stories and Bernett immediately. knew that he had a pretty sharp Talent. on his hands and mentored uh young. Salinger and published his first work. called the Young Folks in the spring. 1940 edition of story uh in which he was. paid 25 bucks which is a little more. than 500 today not bad yeah and he just. kept writing just writing and writing. writing is one thing is has been made. clear about JD Salinger up to his death. and uh at 91 years old is that he loved.

to write and wrote and wrote and wrote. and wrote Always um he didn't publish a. lot and we'll get to all that but. doesn't mean he wasn't writing he he was. writing from the time he was a teenager. till he died uh he always wanted to be. published in the New Yorker that was his. big dream uh they turned him down seven. times until they accepted slight. Rebellion off Madison and. 41 which had the character of Holden. Caulfield the first story that had. Holden and uh very.

disappointingly um after Pearl Harbor. they shelved the story for uh five years. and you know it just wasn't a time to. publish a story like that I guess yeah. no for sure um they said don't you know. there's a war going on and I say we take. a break and come back and join JD. Salinger in the war let's do. [Music]. it.

[Music]. okay so um JD Salinger when war broke. out when America entered World War II he. signed up he enlisted he actually tried. to go to um Officer school and they were. like nah you're a little a little too. fresh for us so he ended up I think you.

nowadays you have to have a college. degree to get into OCS I don't know if. it was the case back then it could have. been who knows but he was he just went. from you know Base to Base um just doing. mundane stuff probably not loving life. too much but I'm sure he had a lot of. free time to write and he wrote wrote. wrote um and then it wasn't until um I. think. 1944 that he ended up on in Europe and. his his movements and the participation. of the events that he took place in from.

um June of 1944 through um winter of. 1945 he was basically at every major. event in the European theater yeah. everything from landing on Utah beach in. dday to liberating the camp at daau like. he was literally there and participated. in all of that stuff and the fact that. he survived is is in intense like he was. in some of the most intense fighting.

that the entire War saw over the course. of like you know a year. basically yeah that reminds me of uh. maybe Jerry can bleep this the the great. line from Rushmore when Max first meets. uh Bill Murray's character and he says. he was in Vietnam he goes were you in. the yeah I was in the it's good line uh. JD singer certainly was uh like you said. and uh interestingly he had when he. stormed the beach at uh at Utah Beach on.

D-Day he had uh the beginnings of. Catcher And The Ry in his napsack he was. working on that book already MH uh he. only wrote about the War uh through the. short story The Magic Foxhole uh where. he wrote about D-Day uh he did not talk. about it much it is clear that it. informed the rest of his life though and. we'll talk about you know those moments. you know as we go along through his life. uh but uh I think 2third of his uh r. regiment uh died within the first few.

weeks close to 2/3 uh after D-Day so it. was pretty brutal stuff um you know the. bleakest battles you can imagine uh. being pinned down in the hurin forest in. Germany thousands of people were. freezing to death he survived that uh. and then like you said at docal uh in. 1945 apparently on the same day that. Hitler uh shot himself uh They Came Upon. dcau and he talked about. never in your life not being able to you.

know get the smell of burning flesh out. of his nose yeah he was also in the. Battle of the Bulge that finally turned. the tide uh against the Germans in World. War II where. 75,000 German soldiers died like this. was over the course of weeks tens and. tens of thousands of people dying all. around you all the time um he he was. there for all of it and he eventually. became I guess an officer at the very. yeah he was a Counter Intelligence.

officer his specialty was interrogating. people he used the German that he picked. up when he lived with that family in. Vienna just before the Nazis came to. power to interrogate Nazis that he ended. up capturing you know less than a decade. later with quite a turn of events if you. think about it yeah and and pretty heavy. stuff and for all of this uh and on VE. day he they say stick around uh we don't. want you to go home we'd like you to. stick around for a densification mission.

so all of a sudden he was pulled away. from his 12th regimen and the friends he. had met there and he got depressed and. you know he was clearly affected with. PTSD they called it battle fatigue at. the time and he checked himself into a. hospital at nurburg for PTSD treatment. and uh eventually uh well you read it. for SMA with love and squalor uh is a. story about a World War II vet. recovering from PTSD in Germany yeah. it's a wonderful story um it you know.

what I just realized his story is or at. least the one I read but from reading. about other stories they seem to have. kind of like a Oh Henry quality of. things surprisingly turning out for the. best in the end is that. correct uh yeah like he was optimistic. hopeful like eventually he was hopeful. it seems like in most of his stories. maybe not a good day for banana fish but. some of the other ones. all the most of the other ones he seemed.

to just be a sentimentalist I guess. where it just didn't end too bleakly. like it was Bleak and then in the end it. got better at the very least that's how. it seemed to me for uh for Esme with. love and squalor well catcher in the ey. we'll we can talk about the ending a. little bit we don't want to give it away. too much I guess we are kind of going to. give it away a little bit what where he. ends up on a ranch living with Truman. capot out. west we we'll give a spoiler warning. when that comes up up okay uh so he. finally got to go home um but he wasn't.

coming home he was discharged but he. told his family hey I'm going to stay in. Germany I fell in love with a woman. named Sylvia and we got married uh but. they were not married long it was only 8. months and he did not write during that. period so he eventually would go back to. New York and started to sort of throw. himself into the you know the nightclubs. of the 1940s New York and sort of. sleeping around uh with women in New.

York uh but he was you know he was. suffering from PTSD at this time for. sure yeah just one one little note on. Sylvia his first wife she was a Nazi. Party official who he arrested during. his denotification. um project and ended up marrying her and. he referred to her as saliva for the. rest of his life whenever he talked. about yeah they his son was like cuz. there were rumors that he had written. stories about that marriage and his son.

Matt was like that's a joke like that. that didn't even register in his life. hardly he did not write about it right. so his um his hitting the nightclubs and. picking up the dames is not doing it for. him it's not numbing things he's he. realizes at some point that he um needs. a different a different way forward and. I'm not sure where he picked it up but. he started with uh Zen Buddhism I I. don't know where he was exposed to that. maybe just in grenwich village in.

general I'm not sure but um that was. that was the first step on a path toward. um a lifelong search for enlightenment. and uh as we'll see he came to view. writing as ultimately his path toward. Enlightenment and therapy but um he. started out by trying to figure it out. using like Zen Buddhism and later on um. Hindu veic uh um. spirituality yeah absolutely and part of. the sort of Spiritual Awakening included.

hey I need to get out of New York if I. want to write and I want to finish this. book I'm working on this novel uh I New. York is too distracting it's too loud I. need more peace and quiet I need to be. able to meditate and so he left he left. New York City uh 1949 and went to. Westport Connecticut and he finished uh. catcher in the Ry there uh his obviously. s seminal work and there was a a. biographer who said uh JD Salinger spent.

10 years riding The Catcher in the eyy. and the rest of his life regretting it. and that's that kind of puts the nail on. the head because that. was that book was such a big deal and it. it put him in such a. spotlight uh that a he didn't like that. Spotlight and B he hated the book and. Publishing industry and everybody in it. it seemed like almost yes so just a. little bit on that on the publishing of.

Catcher in The Ry right like it was just. an immediate hit from what I can tell. like people had been sitting around. waiting for it it almost seems like and. to date it sold something like 65. million copies 65 million copies Chuck. about a half a million every year still. so I got a couple of stats for you if if. I may yeah yeah please that's number 18. all time uh for novels uh and I was kind. of curious ious do you do you have any. idea what the number one bestselling.

novel of all time is novel not book. novel novel um so not the Bible right. right uh I would say um How the West Was. Won by Truman. capot no uh don kote really which makes. sense because it was sort of one of the. first great novels okay uh 500 million. copies which is more than double the. next A Tail of 2 cities is next at 200. million uh then Lord of the Rings The.

Little Prince and the Hobbit uh and then. Harry Potter dude uh owns numbers 11. through 16 wow isn't that crazy yeah. that I mean that's be imagine being a. living a living writer who's just. written those things in the last like 20. or so years and you own that many on the. top list that's nuts well imagine being. Dan Brown then because he's the the. modern writer number 10 The Da Vinci Cod. is the number 10 bestselling Noel I.

believe that man everybody was talking. about that 80 million books but yeah. number 18 65 million books and still. selling strong is is pretty great so. please continue and he was able to um. like live off of royalties for the rest. of his life it was like that's it I just. struck gold I'm I'm fine for the rest of. my life I'm not sure how long it took. for for that to become clear maybe 1965. I don't know um but he he did he never. needed to work again from that point on. essentially. so when he wrote it um so there was a.

biographer that uh that likened it uh to. a war novel disguised as a Coming of Age. story yeah and what they were saying was. that like at least if you're looking at. it through the lens of JD Salinger the. writer himself writing it like this was. his spiritual catharsis this was him. finding a way to put World War II behind. him as best he could enough at least to. get on with his life right and like you.

said what he experienced in World War II. and formed the rest of his life or. colored the rest of his life for the. rest of his life but this was like this. got out the the. darkest gunki worst stuff it seems like. getting catcher in the Ry out there yeah. I think so uh and you know what let's. not spoil the ending except to say that. it it does end with uh some hope it does.

because I don't think we should even. even say like people should read it uh. it's just one of those books I think. that like people should read I'm about. to do that with Moby Dick I've never. read it and my buddy our our friend Joey. carara who did with his brother Andy did. the theme song to this stuff you should. know show yeah he he collects Moby Dicks. and he's like obsessed with a book and. he's like dude just read it just trust. me and read it and I was like all right. I'll read it okay but catcher in the r. is another one I think where you know. just give it a read it's it's a it's a. great book and it's just one that's I.

hate to say like it's an important work. but it is. sure we won't give away the end just. suffice to say that he finds the Kidney. donor he. needs that's right uh so he has doesn't. have a good um experience with the. publishing process like I said he he. hated it he fought with the editors he. didn't like the coverage the book uh the. original cover was that kind of uh kind.

of weird looking drawing of a carousel. horse um with a little small bit of the. New York City skyline in the lower left. uh he didn't like his his photo on the. back um he eventually I believe was able. to get that removed in the third. printing MH um those you can get a lot. of money if you got that first edition. catcher then you're holding on to. something pretty valuable can you. imagine chuck how much those pages of. Catcher And The Rye that were in his. naps sa when storm Normandy would be. worth if that surely they're still out.

there somewhere I cannot imagine how. much some tech billionaire would pay for. those yeah oh no totally and then like. and I'll use it as a rolling. paper that's funny uh Nine Stories came. next uh that's a great one too um most. of those were written before catcher was. actually published but that was also a. bestseller those are short stories right. a collection yeah nine of them strangely. um it could also refer to a specific.

building or something like that no no no. it could I was joking cuz we we talked. about this W's uh 12 or 10 Golden. Country greats uh didn't have 10 songs. that's so awesome it was because it was. the guys they played with there were 10. of them or was it 12 why can't I. remember I don't remember I don't know. all right it's not even a question of my. memory failing me I didn't have the four. knowledge to lose to begin with yeah. yeah it's 12 Golden Country greats but. there's not 12 songs and people thought. that was we making a joke but they were. like no the 12 Golden Country greats.

were these oldtimers from Nashville who. played with us so wait one more thing. well then that's not a joke that's just. a. misunderstanding exactly so uh about the. actual title though um of. we of uh of the catcher and the Ry we. should tell people about that because I. didn't know until yesterday I guess yeah. this is also a spoiler so if you don't. want to know then don't listen to this. part go ahead is it a spoiler sure. because it's in the book oh it is okay. forget it forget it just read the book. everybody no no no you you should say it.

cuz I think people they're like I don't. want to bother please tell me oh okay. well then the people who don't want to. bother so The Catcher in the Rye is. taken from a Robert Burns poem where he. talks about when a body meets a body. coming through the Rye will a body catch. a body will somebody die I think that's. how it ends at the very least that's how. David nien sings it and Murder by Death. but um what he's referring to is the. catcher and the Ry is him he's catching. little kids from going off a cliff.

little kids playing in a field of rye. and as they're at their most free and um. reckless in their abandonment um they. are in danger of going off this Cliff. which would be becoming adults losing. their childhood and he sees himself as. the the catcher the person catching them. from going off that Cliff so that they. can remain children or innocent. essentially for. forever nice. summation thank you thank you Cliff's.

Notes uh oh we should do one on Cliff's. Notes I always wondered who Cliff was. great great idea uh so maybe we'll take. a break here in a minute but we'll just. finish by saying that over the next. decade after catcher uh he's publishing. other things but that is when things got. started to get a little weird for him in. that uh he was a sensation and there. were reporters knocking on his door and. he was just receiving tons and tons of. male from kids who thought he was this. Guru and like this Sage uh delivering.

wisdom to like a younger generation and. all these other younger writers were. inspired to take up writing and it was. just a little too much for someone who. was seeking Solitude and and and and. spiritual. enlightenment uh so we will take a break. and let you know what happened right. after. [Music]. this.

[Music]. [Music]. all right so when we left uh JD Salinger. was a literary sensation he the walls. were closing in on him as far as his. privacy and his sort of search for. spirituality his. anonymity well I don't think wanted to. be anonymous necessarily cuz he. published work but he definitely wanted.

privacy okay uh if he wanted to be. anonymous he would have published under. a pen name I would imagine Truman capot. uh uh in 53 though he bought a 90 acre. property in Cornish New Hampshire it's. about four hours from Manhattan a very. lovely quiet farming Community back then. it probably still is and he left uh but. uh Dave is Keen to point out and as our. biographers of Salinger this wasn't him. saying I'm removing myself from the the. world I'm going to be a recluse he just. wanted to get out of the hustle and.

bustle and live the quiet life he had. friends there he went into town and got. his mail he went and ate uh the local uh. lunch place called Harrington Spa uh he. had a he had friends he had adult. friends he also had teenage friends uh. which you know we'll get into you know. the problematic nature of that later but. uh there was a group of teenagers from. the high school there uh he was in his. early 30s and he had connected with. young people in his life and kind of. that's why he could write in that voice. so easily I think and he just you know.

they thought he was one of the gang and. they loved his advice and so they would. kind of all hang out here and there and. so it's not like he disappeared. completely at that point no he he didn't. need to he he just was getting away from. the people who really wanted something. from him and instead he introduced. himself to a place where he could just. be Jerry basically and it's not like the. people there didn't know who he was they. just weren't necessarily as Star Struck. or seeking him as a guru like other. people were and people would still come.

visit him from time to time um he was. known to sometimes just be like look I'm. I'm not a guru I don't know anything. that you don't know I just wrote a book. I can't give you anything right to. answering the door with the shotgun you. know being like get off my property it. depended I'm sure on his mood but um he. had he had fashioned a life for himself. and he wasn't the recluse that he's. famous for now like you were saying. there there was actually one specific. incident that triggered that. reclusiveness that hadn't been there.

before and he stayed in Cornish he. didn't move from Cornish but if a person. can withdraw from the world uh more than. he had by moving to Cornish he did it. masterfully and it all is um to blame on. a girl named Shirley blay yeah so she. was a a teenager who worked for the. school newspaper or wrote for the school. newspaper and said can I interview you. for the school newspaper and he did not. do press at all but he was like sure. I'll do this thing for the local school.

paper and uh cuz he you know he believed. in that kind of thing uh instead it was. published in the regional newspaper the. daily Eagle twin State telescope and. that was it for him he was like I can't. even trust this kid to interview me for. a school paper everybody wants something. from me uh it's unforgivable it was a. betrayal and so that was it he built a. fence around his property he quit going. into town he quit throwing and going to. parties uh when those his little.

teenager buddies would come around to. hang out he wouldn't come to the door. anymore and that's when his life as the. recluse started um even though his son. Matt will say you know all this is. written about his reclusiveness and he. just he just didn't want to be around I. mean that's what a recluse is but he. said they made it out to be like he was. just this crazy hermit and he was like. he just just didn't want to be bothered. and he just wanted to write without all.

the noise yeah was his son's tap but his. social life seems to have been. definitely objectively curtailed after. that like he was much more social up. until that point oh no one doubts that. yeah his famous quote was surely Blain a. real. phony was it really no it wouldn't. surprise me it'd be great so um he he. becomes that kind of recluse and to some. people that was like oh we got a we got. a really find him now there was a 1961. life article on him um where they the I.

guess the author came to his house and. took pictures of his mailbox got a. picture of him working in his yard like. really intrusive stuff people felt like. okay with doing that just because he was. a recluse you know what I mean yeah and. that's a really difficult thing to deal. with for him but um he still sought. connection with certain people I think. it was just just you had to you had to. earn his trust or um he had to find you.

attractive yeah it was a pretty small. circle uh he got together with a young. woman named Claire Douglas uh they had. met when she was 16 and he was 32 and. they kept in touch via letters and. things and they started dating when she. was 19 uh at Radcliffe uh student at. Radcliffe um they bonded over religion. uh you mentioned early the Vidant and. Hinduism that is what they really got. into at that point and he really.

immersed himself into sort of that sort. of religious study and philosophy uh and. the basic tenants of which are that uh. God is in everything God is everywhere. God is you God is me that kind of thing. uh very George Harrison I think yeah but. like but at least the decade before. George Harrison was ever exposed to this. stuff like this guy was doing this in. like the mid 60s oh okay I thought it. was the 60s he and Claire got married in.

1955 so like he was into it in the in. the early mid-50s at the at the latest. so um yeah he was definitely into that. and his son I think no no his daughter. um who we'll meet in a second later said. that she she believes that the he got in. over his head essentially he took it all. to too much to heart and he turned his. back on the world and became a quote. strange man. because of the the degree to which he.

exposed himself to religion I get the. impression it doesn't matter what the. religion was it was the degree yeah I. mean his kids have two different takes. uh his daughter U Margaret would write a. a book that uh was not very flattering. said that you know he basically held my. mom hostage there uh he did disturbing. things he drank urine he spoke in. tongues uh he became a very strange man. that she didn't recognize and this is. she had grown up really loving her.

father um whereas Matt Salinger who. played Captain America no in the 1990. film Captain America really and was in. Revenge of the Nerds which who was he in. Revenge of the Nerds he was one of the. the guys in the in the the Frat the the. hot frat yeah with not the nerd and Ted. yeah and the guy from Married with no. Ted what was his last name oh I don't. remember he's great though I love that. guy he's wonderful but yeah Matt.

Salinger was an actor and producer for a. while um but he he says uh that his. sisters um there's a great article from. the guardian from a few years ago 2019 I. think with Matt where he said his sister. Margaret he loves her and respects her. but he says those accounts are Gothic. tales so it's kind of one of those. things where two kids have two different. uh takes on their uh famous SL weird. parent right but I mean like those are. pretty at odds with one another pretty. diametrical you know I agree I don't.

think Matt said he was some great dad. either because he would uh he built a a. bunker basically to write in a writing. studio and was not a doting father and. you know writing was his most important. thing he used to say do not disturb me. unless this unless the house is burning. down like leave me alone family so I can. do my important work so two things. one it's TB. McGinley T yeah. two the image of JD Salinger that people.

popularly hold um is still very much. widespread the one that they've they've. held forever essentially since he became. a recluse but like a brilliant writer. and blah blah blah um the the I guess a. different kind of um piggy esque view. that his daughter has of him started to. emerge in the '90s um piggy wrote a a. book called dream catcher which you. mentioned I think it came out in 2000. who's Peggy Peggy is his daughter.

Margaret oh oh that was her nickname. right yeah and in the book she talks she. talks at length about how her mother was. treated and her mother was that rag. Cliffe um co-ed um Claire right is it. CLA CLA Douglas yes CLA Douglas and. apparently JD Salinger drove Claire. Douglas like to the brink of insanity. she they got in 1967 and according to um. her side of the story he was extremely.

emotionally abusive to her um he would. tell her that he didn't love her um he. made her like live in this like it. wasn't necessarily her choice to live. without heat or hot water and grow their. own food and be quiet because we're. we're thinking about you know. Enlightenment like she went along with. it because she was 19 and he was in his. early. mid-30s so his the stuff that has come.

out about him starting in about the late. 90s and then continuing on as different. women in his life over time have kind of. come forward and been like yes and. there's also this there's no there's not. like a Smoking Gun right it's not like. anything like on a Harvey Weinstein. level but his image has definitely. turned a little bit because it has. become clear that he used his age and. experience as a as an older person to.

control and manipulate um younger girls. to his to to often their detriment for. his short-term pleasure essentially yeah. absolutely uh it seemed like the move. was like. uh I mean it's called grooming is what. the word we use today but uh find. someone in their mid teens and begin a. friendship with them and write letters. and pay them a lot of attention and. stuff like that and then get together.

try and get together with them at least. or get together with them in a physical. way when they're when they're legally. able to do so so that happened a few. different times uh there was a. 14-year-old named Jean Miller uh he was. 30 at the time he pursued her via. friendship and letters and then when. they uh when she was 19 uh they had. sexual intercourse and he dumped her. immediately afterward uh she came out. and wrote about but uh after he died she. said that she didn't want to write about. it while he was still alive uh and then.

he eventually started dating a freshman. at Yale named Joyce Maynard uh in 1998. she wrote a lot about their uh. relationship I think they were together. about a year said he was very. manipulative and that he would take. advantage of naive young women uh and. then I believe he finally married. remarried again in 92 he was uh to a. woman named Colleen O'Neal. uh she was like she was like my age. basically at the time she was 21 years.

old and he was 69 years old uh and they. stayed married for what 18 18 years. until he died yeah and she was a a nurse. and apparently was also a bit of a nurse. to him as well as a wife from what I can. tell like a good example I saw was that. he had gone very much deaf essentially. very hard of hearing but he was too vain. to wear a hearing aid so she would have. to repeat to him in a louder voice what. somebody you know had just said to him. when they were out and about in town or.

whatever right so um you know 21y old. 69y old type stuff um but she apparently. is I guess the least affected um of all. of his wives or um girlfriends she Co is. co-trustee of his work um with his son. Matt so she's still very much in the JD. Salinger pro pro Salinger Camp clearly. but um I guess kind of the the. antithesis to her would be Joyce Maynard.

who was the freshman at Yale and she has. written about their. relationship so much that people have. come to look at her as a opportunist. somebody who's basically just trading on. the one year she spent with JD Salinger. she's been you know trying to make money. off of that or get fame or publicity off. of it for years another interpretation. that's kind of come around lately is is. that she's been telling the story of a. victim who was manipulated by an older.

man and when you dig into her story she. was like suddenly the hot New York liter. Literati it girl all of a sudden when. when they met she had just been on the. cover of New York Magazine on the cover. with a cover story but they also put her. picture on the cover um and he got in. touch with her and said like hey I think. your writing's great and they started to. write letters back and forth he. convinced her to to drop out of Yale. with just a few months before graduating. to give up her her job working as a New.

York Times writer which she'd just. gotten and to blow off a book tour that. was going to start her career and. instead move to Cornish New Hampshire. with him and she did she was 19 at the. time um very much like Claire Douglas. and at the very least even if he wasn't. overtly manipulating her like her life. went off the rails because she got. involved with this incredibly revered. older man who she thought loved her um. and after a year he was done with her.

and and she moved out um apparently it. was over kids or something ostensibly. she wanted kids he didn't and they were. like no this isn't going to work but um. yeah it's she Joyce maer has gone. through a bit of a reform over the last. several years um at least as far as some. people are concerned yeah absolutely and. you mentioned Tech Bros buying things uh. mayard she sold 14 she auctioned 14. personal letters from Salinger and Peter. Norton of Norton Antivirus bought them.

for. $200,000 uh he offered to give them back. to JD Salinger or to burn them uh and I. I think wasn't even answered so he just. locked them up and I think still has. possession of them yeah and supposedly. that was a a dime a doen kind of thing. other women came forward like I had. treasured letters that he wrote to me. too it was uh yeah so he's a he's become. a study in one of those things where. it's like okay this guy was a little. more complicated and like you said at. the outset problematic than anyone knew.

or realized and yet his work is still. just as amazing as it was before you. know what I. mean yeah I mean he quit publishing. completely uh and like I said kept. writing in in one later interview he did. not do many but he said there's a. marvelous piece and not publishing it's. peaceful still publishing is a ter. terrible invasion of my privacy I like. to write I love to write but I write. just for myself and my own pleasure uh I.

pay for this kind of attitude I know I'm. known as strange as a strange aloof kind. of man but all I'm doing is trying to. protect myself in my work and I that. article with Matt Salinger like there is. a lot of work that he did and he Matt. Salinger is going to publish some of it. apparently he was directed to publish. some of it um I I read an article years. ago right after he died where they said. between 2010 and 2015 there will be five. new novels and you know none of that has.

happened yet nothing has come out and. Matt Salinger is just like you know it. it's going to take as long as it's going. to take like there's tons of stuff and I. respect my father's work and it's we're. never going to uh license stuff you're. never going to see a catcher in the. right coffee mug it's not going to be a. movie but like I want to publish this. stuff correctly and that takes a lot a. lot of time and like back off yeah. um so what else you got anything. else I got nothing else I mean new new.

stuff's going to come out at some point. uh very curious to see what that looks. like I bet some will be about the glass. family I think for sure that was the. family and uh many of those uh short. stories uh that he wrote about recurring. characters um frany and zooie and stuff. like that so I imagine there's more. glass family stuff in there I think. that's been confirmed Dave turned up a. really great analysis of JD salingers. writing by a guy named mitchi MIT Mito.

kakutani um okay it's really insightful. and and also just as approachable as JD. salinger's writing is it's really really. good stuff so I thought it was a pretty. good introduction to JD Salinger and the. whole like takes a look at like the. whole his whole career from you know how. lauded it was to how it kind of at the. end some of the last stuff he published. people were like what's going on here. like this is a little odd you know what. I mean yeah send me that i' like to. check that out I will send it to you uh.

since Chuck asked me to send something. and we're out of stuff to talk about JD. Salinger I think that means it's time. for a listener. [Music]. mail I'm going to call this red stripe. confirmation for. joshers uh hey guys you mentioned red. strip beer on the recent episode about. scuba and it reminded me of a story. worked at a country club in Granger. Indiana as a banquet Chef uh I think it. said shift I know no it's not Chef by. the way we did a Caribbean Island themed. event for the members and the bar.

manager uh and the bar manager ordered a. couple of cases of red stripe told the. bartenders to push it so it would sell. through uh the first guy to a bottle. tasted it and said it was terrible and. stood at the bar and told everyone not. to get it we only sold two bottles uh a. few months later we did an Invitational. event uh just after it was in the movie. The Firm where two guys were drinking it. before they went scuba diving uh as part. of an escape plan as Josh mentioned uh. the bartenders were asked again to push. the red stripe and I was putting out.

appetizers and one of the first guys to. come off the golf course said hey that's. that beer they were drinking in that. movie and he said it was pretty good and. SP and was telling his buddies about the. movie and red stripe and it sold out in. an hour same group of people but that. recognition from the movie really helped. sell the beer so Josh was right never. underestimate the power of marketing uh. and that is from Steve thanks Steve I. love it when I'm right I especially love. it when people write in to tell me I was. right you know good stuff uh if you want.

to be like Steve and tell me that I was. right bring it on you can send it via. email to stuff podcast iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts iHeart. Radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite. shows.