The Judas Priest Suicide Trial | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too and we're just rocking out. worshiping Satan here and stuff you. should know yes and uh I believe there's. a COA at the top. here uh just a trigger warning this one. features uh uh you know content. featuring drug and alcohol use and.

suicide some pretty serious stuff uh so. we just wanted to give listeners a heads. up uh also heads up if you want to read. a really really great long form in-depth. article about this uh there's article. called the dreamer deceiver from 1990. from The Village Voice by Ivan. solotov it's amazing fantastic and like. really gets into it uh so thanks to Dave. for this and as well as ivvan.

yeah for sure uh yeah and like you said. this is kind of a heavy subject but it's. also just totally fascinating because it. comes from that really bizarre chapter. of American history from essentially the. 80s the the beginning to the mid. 80s where there were a there was a. segment of the American population. specifically Christian fundamentalists. who were convinced that Satan was. working his magic through.

rock and roll music but specifically. they eventually came to Target heavy. metal bands and I mean that was a pretty. easy Target because at the time there. are plenty of bands who were using. satanic imagery or just looked weird so. they must be Satan worshippers or. something like that they there were. bands that definitely encouraged it as. soon as they figured out that the more. the Christian right shouted about how. there were satanists out there that they. could sell more records so they really. kind of leaned into it um so that's kind.

of where this this Story begins and then. the other thing you need to understand. what we're talking about is something. called back masking and that is putting. essentially hidden messages by um that. that appear when you play music. backwards so those two things satanic. Panic of the early 80s combined with. back masking kind of laid the groundwork. for what we're talking about today. that's right and if you want to really. get a background before you listen to.

this you can listen to our I think one. of our best episodes our satanic Panic. episode mhm that we recorded and yeah. also go to a bookstore MH buy our book. sure stuff you should know. colon I don't even know what what's the. name of it an incomplete compendium of. mostly interesting things that's hey are. you looking at it or is that for memory. right off right off the top of my Dome. as do the cool kids say nice work uh you.

can go out and get that book because we. have a really really fun chapter on back. masking or backward masking and there. and uh yeah so go read that listen to. that now read this welcome back. everybody and we can talk about the. Judas Priest trial but first even before. we get to that we'll talk about. California Bill AB 3741 the very first. bill that said hey we should have. warning labels on records that have.

backward. masking yeah it was introduced by a. California assemblyman named Phil Wyman. who was an assemblyman for decades I. think two different times and he had. been contacted by a constituent who'. seen a show about satanic messages being. sublim subliminally hidden in music on. the Trinity broadcast network and she. was very um upset about this and Phil. Wyman ended up introducing a Bill based.

on that phone call that's right and part. of this Bill said the records of many. rock groups contain anti-christian and. pro-s satanic messages transcribed on. them by backward masking and uh I'll. paraphrase the rest because they. basically say like while uh you can't. you can only understand it basically if. it's played backwards but when it's. played forwards your brain still. subconsciously picks up on this stuff. right which is ludicrous and in pseudo.

science we we know this for a fact now. uh but they in this bill which by the. way didn't even get put to a vote thank. goodness uh this bill literally said. like hey this stuff your brain is. picking up on it even though it's. playing in the wrong direction uh your. child's brain is still hearing these. messages right and again these are. messages about Satan anti-christian pro-. satanic messages and the big fear was. that not only would it make kids like. drop out to high school and start.

drinking beer prematurely but that it. would drive them to Suicide that was you. know and it to the Christian rights. credit they were deeply concerned about. teenage suicide and they were seeking a. a way to easily explain it because. usually teenage suicide is the. convergence of a lot of different. factors a lot of times it's it comes. from people you would not want to. identify as part of the problem so it. makes a lot more sense and it's a lot. easier to just point at heavy metal.

bands and say you guys are putting. messages in your music that's causing. kids to commit suicide right and like. you said there were experts that came. and testified about this but experts. with scare quotes and I think you should. actually put scare quotes around the. scare quotes when you write experts when. you're talking about these people. because one guy in particular William H. yarl. II uh was a um self-taught. neuroscientist that's how he that.

it's a it's a I I can't say here this is. a family podcast yeah he's he's. self-described as a self-taught. neuroscientist he does not have academic. credentials that um are anything close. to what he has described himself as and. he has a a again in quotes probably. scientific theory about these messages. that they are uh the they can be decoded. by the unconscious which already covered. if it's h enough times uh and here are.

the two keys here as far as this is. going to play out in like a trial. situation is that he said once you have. decoded this message your unconscious. mind has then you process it as truth MH. and that these truths can influence your. behavior like suicide and drug use and. any other antisocial Behavior you can. think of right and so again this is. total pseudo science based on nothing. like facts but because there was a man.

who presented himself as an expert in. this who was willing to go testify as an. expert and was saying these things that. backed up the Christian rights beliefs. um this is how like junk science starts. to get a hold uh in culture because in a. lot of times like people don't want to. be impolite and tell you how ridiculous. what you're saying is yeah and so it. ends up like on the record and it just. kind of grows from there and this is a. really good example of that yeah for. sure um in the satanic PE uh peic.

satanic Panic episode I know we talked. about the pmrc the parents music. Resource Center uh that was the group um. formed in 85 not a super group of. musicians but a super group of uh DC. political spouses uh notably Tipper Gore. and then wife of um James Baker who was. treasury secretary um his wife Susan. Baker uh when they got together and said. hey we need warning labels on music. music um X for profane or sexually.

explicit V for violent uh da for drugs. and alcohol o for occult uh. anti-christian or satanic music and this. is where we got those very famous. hearings in 1985 with everyone from. Frank Zappa to uh a very fired up John. Denver testifying I watched some of John. Denver's testimony today it's great I. mean he is fired up in what he's saying. but he's also mellow John Denver yeah. but he's he talks about how um uh his.

song Rocky Mountain High was banned in. some places or not played in some places. because it was taken as like a pro drug. song and he said it was banned by people. who'd obviously never been to or seen. the Rocky Mountains right or smoke good. weed yeah but he um he he really kind of. went to bat for uh against censorship he. said I'm opposed to censorship in in any. form uh and especially that's dictated.

by um a self-appointed group of. Watchdogs who were telling everybody. else what morality is he had some really. great messages but in the end the pmrc. prevailed uh because the the warning. sticker that parental advisory explicit. lyrics that essentially helped sell way. more records than would have sold had. that label never been created yeah that. came out of that that Push by the.

pmrc yeah and you know what I I didn't. mind it back then so much I think when. the pmrc pmrc was doing their thing I. was really young and I didn't understand. it later when the parental ADV advisory. label came out I I was kind of like well. who cares it's fine like it's just a. rating uh and parents need ratings as. guidelines but I don't know now that I. see how it all went. down it's really I don't know how you. draw those guidelines and what is right.

and what is wrong is is really kind of. the the big question for me yeah for. sure I mean you're essentially providing. a service for parents who don't want to. go to the trouble of finding out what. their kids are doing you know um at the. expense of of free speech although to me. I I kind of agree with past you where. it's like this is this barely qualifies. as censorship no one's saying you can't. say it yeah there's just a warning on. there that some things might be.

offensive to some people I I don't know. how I feel about it but it's not I'm not. as virulently against it as I once was. too yeah I think so um but um point. being during those hearings you had you. know Frank Zapp and the Gang out there. but you also had a group of uh again you. know quote expert unquote uh people. testifying that like hey this music will. um I mean there was one guy Joe duy that. said there are scientific studies that.

prove that rock music warps PE young. people's minds and that these sub. audible messages can you know Infiltrate. The unconscious and lead to Suicide they. talked about all these and these are you. know to be sure sad sad cases of teenage. suicide but uh you know trotting these. cases out there saying and you know what. they were listening to Twisted Sister. before it all happened and that kind of. thing. yeah yeah so and also if you say that. there are scientific studies and no one.

asks you to to explain what scientific. studies you're talking about that's. again how junk science gets a foothold. in in the world totally so um I say we. take a break and come back and talk. about how this kind of went from. Congress into the courtroom once this. this idea took hold that that musicians. were putting dangerous harmful hidden. messages in their music that's a real. Pro transition.

[Music]. thanks all right so we're back uh we. promised to get into the courtroom and. we are not going to start with the um. well I guess they were both pretty. popular trials in the media or at least.

captured everyone's atten attention but. uh one trial went decidedly longer than. the first uh in 1985 aie Osborne was. sued along with CBS records uh when. their son uh John McCullum these are. parents in California um took his life. after listening to Suicide Solution the. Azie Osborne song uh it was dismissed. very key ruling here on First Amendment. grounds that basically said hey music. lyrics are free speech and it doesn't.

matter what they say uh you can't sue. someone for writing a song and singing. it um very quickly after this there were. two more pending suicide cases that were. scrapped uh but then uh a couple of year. well I guess it wasn't a couple years it. was just a few months later uh in. December of 1985 a very tragic thing. happened in uh Reno devada just outside. of Sparks Nevada so yeah this is a a. very sad story this is where it gets. tragic. um because there were two boys um who.

were best friends they didn't really. like most other people they were just as. tight as two people could be with one. another though and they loved Judas. priests their names were Raymond bellnap. who was 18 and James Vance who was 20. and everybody called them Ry and Jay. because they were essentially. Inseparable and I I think I said it. before but it Bears repeating they loved. Judas priests.

they did it was their favorite band uh. these are guys that you know if you sort. of think about the the typical metal. heads of the 1980s uh maybe some. antisocial behaviors like you said they. just hung around with each other hung. out their room uh drinking and smoking. grass and listening to heavy metal uh. over and over and over and reading. lyrics and looking at the posters and. you know number one fans basically uh. but these were deeply troubled kids who. were very happy uh Raymond had had one.

attempted suicide before and that night. they made a suicide pack that they were. going to in their lives uh they got a a. shotgun assault off shotgun uh went to a. playground after drinking and and. smoking pot all day and went to a. playground behind a l a Lutheran Church. and uh Raymond shot and killed himself. with a shotgun under the chin. yeah it it's even worse than that though.

because like you said it was a suicide. paact so after he witnessed Ry um shoot. himself with a shotgun Point Blank Range. Jay was like well I guess it's my turn. so he picked up the shotgun that was. covered in blood and gore and ejected. the shell put in another shell and then. put it to his own chin and uh in that. that uh article from The Village Voice. that you cited um they the author.

calculated based on the 911 call and. when the ambulance got there that he. probably sat there for a full five. minutes yeah contemplating whether to do. this or not and he said later because he. actually survived this that it was the. sound of sirens that essentially H. hurried him up and I guess the gun. slipped or he didn't quite line it up. the way that he had intended to or there. was just some little part of his head. that was like I don't want to die. but he did pull the trigger but he he.

shot himself under the chin out at an. outward angle away from. himself so he survived but he also took. off like a significant portion of his. lower face yeah his his chin and mouth. and. nose uh you know he was he was. reconstructed as as best possible uh if. you uh again big trigger warnings here. but if you if you want to go look up you. know parts of this trial. or interviews with this uh with this kid.

you can do that just you know do so at. your own. risk so yeah so Jay survived Ry died and. it was in a letter to ry's mom that Jay. wrote that he first said he he he. identified the um Judas Priest record. they were listening to over and over all. day while they were getting trashed as. something that prompted them to um to. take their lives. and he said qu I believe that alcohol.

and heavy metal music such as Judas. Priest led us or even mesmerized us into. believing that the answer to life was. death he also was um he also spoke to a. guidance counselor afterward and told. her that he had heard do it do it in the. song in the that they were listening to. and the song in particular is better by. you better than me which is off of the. Judas Priest stained Class album from.

1978 and uh there's a lot to talk about. with that song yeah there is uh it was. their fourth record uh the song is. actually a cover song uh maybe. ironically it's a cover song in that. these weren't even Judas priests you. know words that they had written uh and. you know we'll get to the the do it part. but well I guess we should just go ahead. and say that uh supposedly at the end of. like three different lines in the chorus. right afterward you hear do it and the.

boys heard this and thought that meant. to take their lives um there were also. four other parts that they thought were. back massed uh one that said Try Suicide. backwards not Try Suicide backwards Try. Suicide suicide is in uh sing my evil. spirit and uh curse words here but I'm. going to uh clean it up for the for the. crowd here uh F the Lord F all of you uh. some more about that song Chuck the. other thing about it it on a Judas. Priest album It's associated with these.

um boys suicide uh in suicide attempt um. so of course you'd think like this is. some dark material that that you're. talking about and like you said it's a. cover it was originally written by Gary. Wright who was a member at the time of. Spooky Tooth who recorded it in 1969. that same Gary Wright went on to have. quite a successful solo career with his. number two hit Dream Weaver in 1976 that. Gary r. but it was a a song I don't know if it.

was an anti-war song at the very least. it was a um a look inside the psychi of. a a boy at War sensibly in Vietnam who. was having such a rough time that he. couldn't he couldn't Express himself to. um his girlfriend back home so he was. actually talking to his best friend. saying like you you talked to her you. tell her how I'm doing because I can't. express myself it's better by you better. than me um that's what the song's about.

there's no nothing about suicide in. there uh there's nothing about um taking. your life or killing other people it's. it's just kind of like a soul-bearing. song about somebody who's going through. the horrors of War it's good song it is. a good song and I really like Judas. Priest's version of it too it's I like I. like Judas Priest but I'm am also like. after a while everything sounds like. Motorhead in a certain way this one does. this do not this sounds like Judas.

Priest you know it's really great song. It Doesn't Even it doesn't even sound. that metal actually no it's it's almost. like um do [ __ ]. yeah did you say doop or do it I said. wow see I said do [ __ ] everybody I. definitely did not say do it don't do it. then I hope there are no uh blood. sucking attorneys listening because. that's just what happened this is where. the story to me gets a little gross. because in. 1986 uh three attorneys headed by a man.

named Ken McKenna uh who was quoted at. one point as saying I was born to sue uh. people I guess is the the dot dot dot. that sounds like a vanity plate it. really yeah born number two Sue yeah. yeah uh so they mount a case uh file a. case rather uh a lawsuit against Judas. priests and CBS records which um and. this is just sort of a a nitpicky thing. but it is specifically was a product.

liability lawsuit MH uh meaning the same. kind of lawsuit you would bring if if uh. any other product had something that. like made you sick to your stomach or. something exactly and in this case the. the plaintiffs were bringing this as if. CBS records and Judas Priest had put out. a product that had um a a harmful flaw. to it which was these subliminal. messages that had brought harm to Ray. and Jay which had cause them to kill.

himself and then attempt to kill himself. so that was essentially what they were. coming at it with and they uh drew a. judge in wo County where Reno is I think. of the courthouse is in Reno Judge Jerry. Carr Whitehead heard this case and in. pre-trial hearings he heard a lot of. expert um testimony he heard testimony. from a lot of junk science scare quote. experts um and he agreed to hear the. case there was no jury it was just him. but he allowed the case to come to trial.

and just that was a landmark decision. because what he's saying is I think. there's enough possibility that what the. plists are saying is right that these. guys insed subliminal messages that got. these kids to take their lives or. attempt to take their life um that I'm. willing to hear lawyers debate whether. it's correct or not that's enormous. right and that it didn't uh get bumped.

because of the Azie Free Speech ruling. right because they were specifically. because they were subliminal messages. which to him uh setting this President. doesn't count as free speech because it. there's no dialogue that can happen. where you can determine if something is. correct or true uh and on top of that. even um subliminal messages were an. invasion of a right to privacy because. the listener didn't didn't know this. going into it and had no way of of. avoiding this so right very Landmark.

rulings um another thing two things I. want to point out here was part of. this part of this was because these. attorneys stepped forward of course and. they thought they could make a lot of. money yeah part of it was because these. parents hated this. music these weren't like uh rock and. roll parents who were like oh man I was. kind of into that too but it turned my. my son wrong these are people like when. you see interviews I watch that that. documentary on YouTube. um it's not very good it was sort of.

from the time though that but it showed. a lot of the trial and interviews MH uh. the mom I believe it was James's mom you. know they asked her like what kind of. music she was into and she liked music. that her parents were into so people. from like the 1940s and 50s she was like. you know like Roy Rogers and The Singing. Nun so the idea of Judas Priest being in. their household they hated this so. they're angry about that to begin with. mhm and then the other thing that people. I don't think thought about much at the.

time was is that Judas priests like they. were devastated by this these were big. fans of theirs and Rob howford in. interviews was even like well first of. all we're not inserting backward. messages anyway but if we were like why. it's ludicrous why would we have our. biggest fans and tell them to to kill. themselves and he's like if anything we. would say buy more shirts and buy more. records yeah and it like it devastated. them emotionally that these these k took. their lives and that they loved Judas.

priests and they were being blamed for. it yeah yeah that really struck me too. in Reading quotes from Rob Haler is just. the amount of empathy that he had and. that he was able to kind of like cut. through all the other stuff and be like. you guys don't lose sight of what this. is all about these two kids like like. died um and yeah but also at the same. time defending their music and defending. their other fans too saying like don't. pick on these kids just because they. listen to Judas priests like there's. nothing wrong with listening to Juds. priests it was a really strange awful.

position that the band was forced into. by like you said those ambulance chasing. lawyers who created this this lawsuit. out of whole cloth basically yeah the. the other thing too from watching the. documentary was um just the complete. lack of uh and I'm not saying like. parents are responsible if a child takes. their life cuz there like you said. there's so many things at work here. right but the complete and utter lack of. these parents' ability to look at the.

environment they were raised in right uh. was just startling um you know the The. Stepfather of James was an alcoholic and. had a gambling addiction and when they. asked her about it in court in. cross-examination she couldn't even say. the word alcoholic the wife she was just. like well he had a drinking problem uh. but James the quote was James would make. extremes out of situations and then it. cut to an interview with her on the. couch with her husband that said big. deal you had a drinking problem and like.

a lot of people have drinking problems. and their kids don't uh kill themselves. and she said everyone tries to blame. everything on me and none of this is my. fault uh and you know I'm I'm having. empathy for her because she lost her. child but also just like the utter lack. of like it it's all this rock band's. fault and and nothing had to do with. this and the kid said like being raised. in that home was awful like he said that. you know yeah and not just him I think.

his siblings also were were basically in. the same boat yeah I read I read an. article in skeptical inquire by one of. the psychologists for the defense for. Judas Priest who was saying like this is. not blaming the victims we're not. blaming the victims here but you can't. not take into account all of the other. factors in these boys lives that made. them extremely high risk for suicide. yeah that and to instead just ignore all.

that stuff like an inability to stay. employed uh engaging in tons of crime um. having trouble at school fighting being. beaten at home um all of these things. put together you can't just throw those. out and it doesn't mean it's these kids'. fault and you know in a lot of ways it. doesn't me necessarily make it the. parents fault either but you it's. certainly not the band's fault like. you're really failing to take any sort. of accountability if you're like you. said you're placing all the blame on.

Judas Priest yeah absolutely so totally. all right so they go to court uh the. thing that they had to do to uh persuade. judge Whitehead um they they really had. a four-prong approach that they had to. prove in order to prove that Judith. Priest and CBS records had to pay money. uh one is that there was definitely a. physically present message on that song. that you could identify uh they brought. in this guy um William nikoff Jr um who.

this is for some reason this struck me. as funny he had a business that. specialized in detecting subliminal. messages but it went out of. business he also made money selling. subliminal message tapes himself those. self-help tapes that supposedly help. people like quit smoking and lose weight. right he also made money doing that. right so he supposedly was an expert at. that kind of thing um he you know. isolated and slowed down and amp ified. the parts of the song that supposedly.

said do it uh we'll get to you know the. outcome of that later uh and then he. also played some of the backward masking. stuff in court yeah so that's really. important too like there were two. components to this if you listen to it. regularly you heard do it if you listen. to it backwards you heard all those. other satanic messages right right that. wasn't clear to me at first um it took a. little while to kind of sink in so they. were trying to get them both ways. forward and. backward yeah but the one thing that I. don't get is in trial they were talking.

about just lyrics in general and that's. the stuff that should have been. protected by Free Speech cuz the judge. even said at the beginning like no the. only thing that matters here is the. subliminal messages that's the only. thing this case hinges on yeah but I. think back masking would fall into. subliminal messages too well no no no. I'm saying they were just talking about. regular lyrics on the album oh gotcha. probably just prove the the um the case. or establish the case that Judas Priest. was evil you know yeah sure so one of. the things that really helped the.

plaintiffs um that came from Rob howford. is uh on the stand he was asked like. have you ever included any back masked. lyrics and he said Yeah we actually have. before um and it was not to hide any. kind of secret message or anything like. that but it was a cool effect playing. something backwards when you listen to. it forward that was the point of it but. the the plaintiff lawyers um were like. Case Closed basically and of course the.

case wasn't closed but it was not a it. was not it didn't help the defense at. all no for sure and that was the second. prong uh first one like I said was um. there was an identifiable message the. second one was that they deliberately. put it there yeah if they're going to be. held liable so yeah just the fact that. they did that at all doesn't mean. anything cuz a lot of bands were doing. that kind of thing yeah for sure just. read our chapter on back masking go do. it but they couldn't but they Rob. howford couldn't say no we've never done.

that right which would have been really. helpful if if you've done it once who. knows if you did you've done it before. right so uh there was another one um the. next part that they had to prove was. that these messages were in fact. subliminal because the point of them. being subliminal is that. um you couldn't resist the the the. messages you were getting because you. couldn't identify them and you couldn't. be like this is not this is not right. and so the idea that they're was such a. thing as subliminal messaging apparently.

there was a a guy named Wilson key and I. don't know did you say that he didn't. actually testify at the trial but he was. an advisor to say like William nikoff. yeah I mean he basically he literally. wrote the book on subliminal advertising. yeah and they interviewed him a lot like. he never took the stand I think but they. used a lot of his like quoted testimony. to back up their case yeah and he was a. hammer in subliminal advertising is the. nail like he saw it everywhere he saw. the word sex in The Ridges of a Ritz.

cracker um on the box um that that Old. Chestnut that like there was a naked. woman hidden in the ice cubes of a. Johnny Walker ad that came from him uh. he said it was in the Sears catalog it. was in the cine Chapel it was everywhere. that just subliminal messaging was. everywhere in the media and it worked. that was that was the point then that. really helped um bolster that that. plain's taste that the messages were. subliminal and then they also needed to.

show that subliminal messages could. create the um the uh impulse to die by. Suicide yeah by the way I got to quote a. real quote from uh Wilson okay Wilson. key on science he said science is pretty. much what you can get away with at any. point in. time at least he didn't say that he's a. self-taught neuroscientist but it's. definitely in the same ballpark it's a. good point uh all right so you said they.

had to prove that they contributed to. that impulse those messages contributed. to the impulse to to take someone's life. uh they brought in um the Planos brought. in a guy named Howard Chevron uh this. guy was an actual legitimate clinical. psychologist very respected guy yeah uh. and he is the guy that basically in. court showed experiments that showed how. the unconscious mind uh in the conscious. mind operate and how they're separate.

but how they do interact with one. another uh and that subliminal messages. are potentially very very powerful. because your brain is confusing it and. hears it as a truth yeah and this guy. like you said he was legit he back in. the 60s he and a um a colleague. essentially proved that Freud's theories. on the unconscious mind were right that. we do have an unconscious mind they. detected it by showing subliminal. messaging to people or images and then. you know analyzing their brain waves and.

they were like Yep this this is actually. a thing he went too far though and he. attributed way too much potency to. subliminal messages on the unconscious. mind and he essentially said that when. the unconscious mind um gets its hands. on a subliminal message or is presented. with a subliminal message it doesn't. understand that it's just been it's just. taken it externally and so the Mind. confuses it as a a internally generated.

thought and it gets all it's accorded. all of the importance that your own. thoughts and beliefs are given um even. though somebody else told you to do it. you just don't understand it like that. so Ergo if you suddenly have this idea. like oh I should kill myself even if. it's subliminal you you might act on it. right yeah too far I believe he was a. guy in court too that said uh that was. talking about just their lyrics and. their anti-religious connotations M.

which I didn't you know it just cut. right there so I don't see if the judge. was like irrelevant or whatever because. again that that's the part that was. supposedly not on trial right uh should. we take another break yeah let's take. our break all right let's take our final. break here and we'll talk about uh the. defense case and the ruling right after. this. [Music].

okay so uh we went over the plaintiff's. case and um judah's priest had a defense. pretty wellestablished one essentially. they had to show um number one that the. words do it were not actually the words. do it that they were random sounds that. to the ear especially when somebody. pointed it out to you that it sounded.

like do it you would hear as do it. and I couldn't find it anyway I couldn't. either yeah I listen over and over to. that section and I just don't hear it at. all but apparently if somebody is. pointing it out especially if they're. slowing it down and isolating it all. that you supposedly here do it it was. played over and over again in the court. so there is something there enough that. no one said objection this doesn't sound. anything like do it and it became like.

just one of the central components of. this like do it is do it there is it. purposefully there and then conversely. on the defensive side does do it even. exist like are these actual words and so. a lot of weird stuff happened Rob hord. sang better better by you better than me. in the witness. box and um he was basically showing how. he he likes to say e at the end of like. every line yeah it was was a very. interesting part uh because they were.

like you know and why do you do that. like it was an implication he was like. he was like just the emotion of the song. and you know like basically I'm just a. singer man yeah Satan told me to yeah. well he shouldn't have said that but he. let it slip so um just like how the pl. ifs brought in nikoff William nikoff a. sound engineer um the defense brought in. their own sound engineer and they. managed to slow it down and essentially. prove that do it was just a random.

combination of sounds not even speech. yeah but it was a combination of a. guitar sound and um Rob hord the lead. singer exhaling on a line and that you. put those together if you listen to a. certain way especially if somebody said. sounds like do it doesn't it you could. hear do it yeah there were like three. more things though it was in that big. big article from The Village Voice I. just can't remember I know the high hat. something had something to do with it MH. uh and like some sort of an echo but. yeah the point is they were like d it's.

not even in here so why are we even in. here is what they were thinking right. yeah uh again still having empathy this. whole time um one of the most troubling. parts of this trial for the defense of. course is having to you know. cross-examine these families and talk. about the the history of depression and. these antisocial behaviors that these. boys had um like one of these guys and. this is seven years before Coline one of. them I don't think it was Jay I think it. was uh raymon it was Raymond talked.

about getting automatic weapons and like. shooting up large Gatherings and you. know the the defense attorney is asking. this this mom like like can you agree. that to hear something like this you. know something is wrong with your son. and she's like well I don't understand. what your question is like what do you. mean something's wrong with him and she. was just you know it was a tough tough. thing to bring the sister out and say. like you had two previous suicide. attempts and you never listened to this.

music right she's like no I just. listened to Roy Rogers it was all very. hard to watch because they had to paint. a picture of their unhappy home life and. their unhappy childhood yeah but it was. I mean there was just no way of mounting. a defense without doing that you know. but yeah from what I could tell in that. um dream deceiver long form. article the all members of Judas PR. found it very distasteful but yeah they.

all seemed to understand they had to do. this but none of them were happy about. doing it and they were all I mean it. wasn't just Rob howford like all of them. were deeply affected by this and having. to hear the story of what happened to. these kids and like it it haunted them. for sure they were mad they were they. were mad that they had been dragged into. court across the pond over this. ridiculous stuff but at the same time. they were definitely affected by what. had had created this whole Kur fuffle. yeah I saw too hord was really just. upset that it was America he was like. this is a country that was always so.

good to us and we loved America so much. and and you know to be taken to court in. America was just really hard for us uh. you know they sat there every day in the. trial and uh I I wasn't the biggest. Judas Priest guy because I just didn't. listen to a lot of that kind of music. but like they were good dudes yeah you. know yeah I've always respected Rob hord. for coming out um in in the metal. Community you know like was as far as I. know the first and maybe even still the.

last so far I mean can you imagine if. they knew he was gay at the time what. they would have done in that trial no. because this was a really bizarre time. in American history and there was just. so much boldness to take somebody to. court over things like free speech over. things like obscenity just over moral. policing there was no qualms about. taking somebody to court over morality. so yeah you're right who knows what they. would. yeah for. sure so um there was also the the um.

point of essentially debunking all the. pseudo science that the plaintiff's. Witnesses had spouted from the witness. stand and luckily they were basically. able to do that they were all they had. to do was say there's zero body of. literature in the scientific um Corpus. that suggests that this is even remotely. possible that at best studies that have. shown um an effect from subliminal.

messages could maybe disturb you could. maybe trigger anxiet in you that. certainly couldn't actually create. behavior and certainly not Behavior as. Monumental as suicide yeah for sure and. they use like the opposite to help prove. their point they were like when people. like want to lose weight and quit. smoking more than anything else and they. buy these books and tapes with. subliminal messages supposed to help. them do it they're they're trying to do. this and using it as an aid and it's.

still not helping them achieve that goal. like it it doesn't work it's not working. yeah that definitely helped their case. too so the defense put up a pretty good. well defense um and just kind of picked. apart a lot of the the plaintiff's case. and But ultimately it was up to judge. Whitehead who um from what I read in. that article was just his face was. totally impassive he didn't let on. anything that he'd taken in on any given. day. um and so I don't know that they had any.

clue how it was going to go um and so he. ruled in favor of Judas priests he ruled. against the plaintiffs um and like you. said the plaintiffs had brought this as. essentially a product liability case but. white had viewed it instead as an. invasion of privacy case and the big. difference between those two is intent. uh and I think uh attorney McKenna put. it like if you're in a Ford Pino that. blows up it doesn't matter whether Ford. didn't mean for that to happened it. still happened the harm was done but if.

it's invasion of privacy there has to be. intent and so judge Whitehead. essentially said I believe that. subliminal messages are real I believe. that they can uh impact Behavior but I. don't think judas's priests. intentionally put these in there and uh. I I'm ruling in favor of Judas priests. yeah I mean looking back it was a. totally. sensible decision on a case that never. should have been brought but it still. feels like a bit of a brave decision for. a a lone judge uh to make without the.

assistance of a jury don't you think. yeah for sure I mean he added to the. Free Speech body of law that's enormous. that's an enormous ruling just from that. just by ruling that subliminal messages. are not protected speech and then yeah. in his ruling he he didn't do anything. to debunk the idea that there were. subliminal messages and that they could. affect us and that metal bands are. putting them in their records so the. fact that he didn't say that that wasn't.

correct actually bolstered people's um. viewpoints of that later on in other. criminal cases yeah uh in the end Judith. PRI spent about a quarter of a million. bucks in their defense uh did not do the. conversion on that for some weird reason. but uh suffices to say it's a lot more. now I feel hollow uh CBS was ordered to. pay uh. $40,000 to those plain of attorneys as. cost reimbursement for not complying. with Discovery orders uh it all came.

down to their um providing the master. tapes for the song uh they went back and. forth saying that they didn't have them. and then finally I think after a long. time they uh did provide them but there. was um chunks missing that you know the. the conspiracy-minded plff attorney said. was them sort of whitewashing it uh and. they said when they did receive the. master tapes they were sort of like uh. flak apart and that they didn't want to. even they didn't even play them because.

they didn't want to assume any. responsibility for them right so it was. just sort of a mess in that Discovery. period so they ended up having to pay. them 40 Grand but uh yeah yeah so they. the Christian Wright kept going after. metal bands for a while after this and. you might say like well how did this. ever stop like how did it end it didn't. end they just um change targets and uh. once rap music became a thing in the. late 80s yeah they started there there. was a new moral panic and in fact that.

same year uh in 1990 um two Live Crew. was arrested for obscenity in Florida. and went on trial and ended up. prevailing as well I had a great idea. the other day that I can't remember now. that had to do with two life crew. probably their free speech Crusade it. wasn't a podcast episode it was. something else it was like I don't know. it was a good title for something that. had to do with two life crew. okay hey we want some podcast was that. it oh my God miso podcast uh well sadly.

uh we should mention that um as for Jay. he uh only lived a few years after that. he went to a uh mental health facility. for depression and it's very hard to. find out exactly what happened because. they I know he suffered from an overdose. went to a coma for a few days um showed. no brain activity and died but there is. dispute. between the parties over whether or not. that was a suicide or whether it was an.

accidental overdose of methadone uh. whether or not the plug was pulled I. couldn't get any straight answers yeah. it seemed clouded for sure yeah because. they wanted that lawsuit to continue. they appealed of course and I imagine a. a suicide uh probably would not have. helped their case any so maybe that had. something to do with it I don't know. yeah uh and despite feeling betrayed by. America Judas Priest still tours here. and if you want to see them they will be. at the Alliant Energy Powerhouse in.

Cedar Rapids Iowa September 21st oh man. I've never seen them I'd love to I bet. it's great I would love to as well uh. you got anything else nothing else. nothing else here either which means of. course everybody it's time for listener. mail uh appropriately you're going to. talk about streaming music uh hey guys. this went to your New York show the. highlight of my year uh I've worked in. the music industry for nearly a decade. and I must give you guys kudos for. summing up the streaming debacle so well.

I have a few additions that may add. color to the situation uh namely that it. was a crisis for the industry and. Spotify is credited with saving the fan. consumption model for music uh still. Spotify is in a power struggle with the. labels and because they pay out 70% of. the total revenue to labels they Lobby. for lower payout rates for musicians and. songwriters to achieve profitability to. a loophole involving audio books and. bundles as of May 2024 spot will be. paying songwriters uh approximately $150.

million less per year uh Spotify is kind. of in a three-way standoff with labels. uh without label owned content uh like. Drake and Taylor Swift no one would use. Spotify but labels need stores like. Spotify and Apple for fan consumption. it's a convoluted power Dynamic that has. trickle down effects on music that most. fans don't even. recognize uh keep fighting the good. fight guys that's from Nate in New York. New York thanks a lot Nate thanks for. that email thanks for coming to see us. too that was a fun show at Town Hall.

totally uh if you want to be like Nate. you can come see us to wherever we. perform live and in the meantime you can. also send us an email send it off to. stuff podcast iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts ihart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].