The Humble and Deadly Cigarette | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And we're just smoking, smoking. >> Oh, >> feel all right. Just keep on talking. And this is. >> uh Boston. Yeah. Okay. >> Yep, that's right. I was that was in my.

head. I was getting there. >> I thought you were going to go with. Smoking in the Boys Room. >> No, I always thought that was just kind. of a lame. >> Yeah, that was a remake, you know. Mly. crew. >> Uhuh. Covered it. >> I don't remember who did the original, do you? >> No, I don't remember. >> You don't need to email in and tell us. That's all right. If we're curious. enough, we'll go look it up. >> Or you can feel free. >> Okay. Who? Okay. >> Can't tell someone not to email. >> Now, I do want to know. I'm going to. look while you talk. >> Well, I think you should wait for the.

email. Maybe the the writer of that song. is listening. >> Brownsville Station. >> Okay, there you go. >> I never in a million years would have. come with that because I've never heard. those two words together as a band name. >> Oh, well, you've never taken a train. there then. >> Have you ever heard of Brownsfield. Station? >> Just when I took a train to Brownsville. Station. >> That's gross. I think I know what you're. talking about. >> Oh god. All right, let's get off this. and get on something even grosser, which. is cigarettes. >> Nice. >> Uh, and this was from our uh from our.

pal Julia. And I I just sort of I. commissioned this one because I was. like, you know what? Let's just do one. on the cigarette itself, not like. smoking and not the lawsuits and all. that stuff or lung cancer, but just on. the thing, the object. And Julia sent us. an article called the cigarette itself, appropriately titled. And I learned a. lot in this one. Uh chiefly that the. cigarette was born in Spain. >> in the early 16 uh 16th century when uh. cigar smokers cigars were around and it.

was sort of a luxury item for the. wealthy at the time because they were. you know hand rolled and uh imported. from Mexico and South America. But when. they would, you know, stub out that. last, you know, half inch of a cigar or. whatever, uh, people that didn't have as. much money would come along, grab that. thing and take out the tobacco, um, you. know, grind it up and pick it apart a. little bit and wrap it in paper and. smoke it. And that was a little cigar or. a cigarella.

>> Isn't that amazing? >> Yeah. I mean, I never thought about the. word cigarette being a play on cigar. >> Oh, really? like a tiny cigar like because I always. heard cigarella but like a kitchenet a. cigarette is just like a the same sort. of version of that. >> Ironically I never thought of a. kitchenet as a small version of a. kitchen. >> Come on. >> So Chuck, let's just hold our horses. here before we go any further into the. history. Let's give a few basics about. the cigarette.

>> Great. >> So uh they're about 84 millimeters long. a standard cigarette. And for reference, um, that's about the length of a. cigarette. They're sold in packs of 20. And if you really want to get technical. about a cigarette next time you're at a. party and you're buming one from. somebody or castigating somebody for. smoking, even better, you can say that a. cigarette is also technically known as a. heated tobacco product. That's right. Uh, as we'll see, Camel.

first started putting them in packs of. 20, and I could not find out if I I. think they did that to match the number. of matches in a matchbook, which is 20. >> Oh, really? >> I'm pretty sure that's the the story. >> I wish somebody would have told the hot. dog um makers that because, you know, you got the buns of eight or pack of. eight hot dogs and buns of six. I can. never keep up these days with witches. >> Yeah, that that just still doesn't make. any sense at all. But yeah, I am pretty. sure that they put it in a pack of 20.

eventually to match the matches in a. matchbook. Uh but that may also be. apocryphal. Who knows? >> That's a good one though. >> Uh what cigarettes are for is to deliver. nicotine to your body, which is a. feel-good chemical uh that is naturally. occurring in tobacco. And the whole. point is to with a pipe, cigar, or. cigarette or anything like that, an eig. is to get you that nicotine to get you. addicted to it to eventually kill you. from it. Yeah, it's crazy, but that's.

essentially the point. And I think. before the advent of mass-produced. cigarettes, maybe you had a lesser chance of. developing all sorts of hideous cancers. and other diseases. But that even if. that's not true or even if it is true, it doesn't matter because we live in the. age of mass-produced cigarettes. And. these things are exquisitely engineered. um products that so much time and money. and effort has gone into and so much.

research that most of what we know about. cigarettes, what cigarettes do to the. human body, how addictive they are comes. from the research the tobacco companies. did over the decades that they kept that. eventually had to be handed over to the. state attorneys general who sued them uh. back in the 90s. piece. >> Yeah, it's it's crazy how it all panned. out. Um, if you're looking at, you know, and Julia kind of breaks it down with. the the white end and the brown end, but. there are plenty of cigarettes that are.

white through and through, uh, meaning. the filter end is the same color. >> Uh, but the the tobacco end uh is a. filler of cut tobacco leaves and then. plenty of additives. Uh, I think how. many did they admit? >> 599. Yeah, they they wanted to get to 600 so. bad, but they finally in 1994 released. uh their additives and it was a list 599. long, which is crazy to think about. >> I think they had 600, but some very. sharpeyed tobacco lobbyist was like, "Uh.

uh, you got arsenic in here twice.". >> Uh, so it says, "Cut tobacco leaves. It's held in a porous wrapped paper that. is sealed by an adhesive. And if you'll. look closely, uh there's a printed um. there's printed information on that. paper that you're also smoking. And. you're going to be burning when you're. smoking that tobacco, uh that paper, those additives, that ink, that. adhesive, and everything. And the smoke. that comes out, and these are words I. did not know, the smoke that comes just. from a burning cigarette sitting there.

is called sidestream smoke. Okay. >> Uh the stuff that you inhale is called. mainstream smoke. >> Yeah. The mainstream smoke comes out of. the filter. and you draw through the. filter. Um, and the smoke that comes. out, that's the mainstream smoke. The. filter, as we'll see, it does something. a little bit here or there, but not. really. It's essentially to give smokers. the illusion that they're preventing. some sort of harm to themselves when. they actually aren't. Another uh. illusion is that these um these.

cigarette butts uh which are the most. littered item in the entire world. I saw. something like 4.1 trillion cigarette. butts are littered not thrown away. littered every year around the world. And a common misconception among smokers. is that they're biodegradable. They're. not. They're photogradable, not. biodegradable, which is a real problem because they. kind of well, they litter all over the. place and they're a type of plastic.

>> Yeah. Uh those filters are cellulose. acetate. And there are companies that. put charcoal in there, but uh because. charcoal is a great filter generally. naturally, but there aren't any studies. that show that charcoal in a filter. helps at all. >> Yeah. >> As far as like health outcomes or. anything like that. Uh there are two. paper wraps on the filter end. There's a. plug wrap around the actual filter and. then there is if it's a brown filter, there's the brown uh it's called tipping. paper around the plug wrap and that is. also sealed up uh so that you know you.

don't want that smoke coming out of the. side of the filter, right? >> Uh you want it going into your mouth and. then that filter is also treated um they. change the pH on that filter to to. purposefully turn it brown as you smoke. So you look and you see, man, look at. all that brown stuff that's not getting. into my lungs. >> It it fooled me for 20 years. Up until a. couple days ago, I had no idea that that. was the case. >> Yeah. Just one of the the dirty tricks. that cigarette manufacturers used and.

still use. >> That's nuts. >> Uh so let's go back to the cigarillo, shall we? >> Let's do it. >> So um the the cigurillo, it I think you. said it was the early 16th century. So. the early 1500s, right after the age of. discovery kicked off, right? And it took. all the way to the late 1700s before it. really started to spread outward into. Italy and Portugal, which are not that. far away. Apparently, people didn't. think that much of the cigarella by. then. But as Europe started to go to war.

with itself, the cigurillo kind of. hitchhiked to the fronts and um was. like, "Hey, what do you guys think about. me?" Pretty great, huh? >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's crazy. The rise. of the cigarette is tied directly to the. various wars over the years. >> and the fact that soldiers wanted to. smoke. Um, it was, you know, it helped. calm their nerves. I think it was a as a. was a comfort piece when you're I bet a. cigarette and kids don't ever try it. Don't ever even try it. But I bet when.

you're at war sitting in a foxhole in. miserable conditions, I bet that. cigarette is one of the the few. pleasures that comes your way, you know? >> Yeah. I bet that's a great cigarette to. smoke. >> I would think so, too. Yeah. >> So, anyway, uh, French and British. soldiers discovered them in the early. 1800s during the Napoleonic Wars, and. this is where the French came up with. the word cigarette instead of cigarillo. >> And the Crimean War uh, around the.

middle of the century came along. a new. generation of British and French. soldiers uh got this you got these. cigarettes with that that um pretty. harsh Turkish tobacco. They said, "We. love this stuff." They brought it home. and there was a tobaconist named Philip. Morris that had a a shop on um Bond. Street in 1847 where he was selling. cigars and tobacco products and he was. like, I'm going to start making. cigarettes. >> So, yeah. Okay. So, Philip Morris, the. Philip Morris company, one of the.

largest producers of cigarettes in the. entire world, is directly related to. Philip Morris. It's not just like a like. a a shout out or something like that. >> Oh, I never looked that up, but I just. assume that it was eventually became the. big company. >> I I I mean, it would make sense because. a lot of a lot of these companies did. grow out or were consolidated by larger. companies, a lot of the original. cigarette companies. So, it's entirely. possible for sure. But regardless, he.

was one of the people who brought it to. London and made it kind of like a a. fancy thing, which is really surprising. because Chuck in America, it went a. totally different way when it really. became a thing in the United States. Uh, as we'll see, it it became associated. essentially with juvenile delinquents. At first, it was not a fancy like bond. street type thing to do. It was kids. playing craps rather than going to. school were smoking cigarettes too.

>> Yeah. N Wells. >> Yes. N Wells. >> So at uh Philip Morris's Bond Street um. tobacco store, uh they started making. their own cigarettes. Uh they were not. mass-produced obviously. He had people. hand rolling just like they did with. cigars. >> Uh but they were pretty good. They would. get out uh they would pump out like. three or four a minute uh which is. pretty fast. They were pretty expensive. as a result. And uh a couple of things. happened that really made cigarettes, you know, way more widespread. Um one.

was the invention of a rolling machine, like a a machine that could pump out um. you know, eventually like 250,000 a day. for a company. >> Uh and the American cigarette, which. used a um a combination sometimes of. Turkish tobacco or sometimes just. straight up American tobacco that was a. lot less harsh and more palatable for I. guess American appetites. smooth, mild. So, yeah, there was a guy named James. Duke who was a Durham, North Carolina.

tobacco air and I think I remember. correctly when we went to Durham for our. show recently, I think both times. Um, they have like a big Duke stencil on a a. like a smoke stack at some place. >> Oh, that that's funny. >> I'm pretty sure. So, um, >> smoke stack. >> He uh he Yeah, he created W. Duke Sons. and Company in 1883 to start making um. cigarettes. Sorry, 1881. By 1883, he was. making 250,000 a day thanks to the.

invention of James Bonsack, who created. that cigarette rolling machine that you. mentioned earlier. Um that could roll. 200 cigarettes per minute. >> Yeah, that's quite an increase from. three or four over there on Bond Street. So Duke said, "Hey, give me a deal. I'll. buy a few of those things if you give me. a good price on them. >> He's like a wrong. >> and yeah, exactly. And uh he said, "Sure." And he said, "All right, all you. cigarette rollers, uh you're out of. business." And they said, "No, you can't. hire a machine to do work that humans.

do." And he said, "Watch me." And so he. put these machines in. >> Um all of a sudden they were a lot uh. cheaper to to sell uh to make and to. sell. They were readily available. And. like you said, they were they were. smoother and they got uh popular at. least with the with the juveniles, but. that would be the first step toward. making them a little more mainstream. But it is interesting that they were uh. I think in 1900 2% of the market was. tobacco market was cigarettes. People. were still really into chewing tobacco.

at the time and dipping snuff. >> Yeah, people love that kind of stuff. So. by the 1890s though, this was enough of. a thing that that kids were smoking. cigarettes that as early as the 1890s, states started to pass bans on selling. cigarettes to minors. Isn't that. interesting? >> Yeah. I I mean, I think I didn't think. they cared about children at all back. then, but apparently they're they were. like, "Hey, this this doesn't look good. These kids walking around smoking like. they're seven years old.". >> They're like, "What are you doing out of. the coal mine?". >> Right. Exactly. Uh, do you want to keep.

going and talk about where the cigarette. really broke out in America or do you. want to take a break first? >> I think it's break time, buddy. >> Okay, we're going to take a break, everybody. We just decided. >> Not a smoke break, just a break. [Music].

So, uh, just like in Europe, Chuck, uh, war helped cigarettes just blow up. basically. In World War I in particular, um, brought cigarettes to America by. introducing it to American troops. And. like you said, um, the men fighting. World War I in the trenches were like, "We need something. somebody give us. something to smoke. And the US. government was like, "That's fine, but.

cigars are kind of pricey. I don't know. if you guys have been to a cigar shop. lately. We can't really give all of you. cigars all the time. What about these. cigarettes that are being made that are. pretty cheap?" And the men in the. trenches said, "Whatever. We just need. to smoke something." So very quickly a. steady. neverending stream of packs of. cigarettes started being sent to the. boys on the front in Europe. Um and all. like um businesses, individual citizens,

the government, they were all paying for. it and they just smoked smoked out of. the trenches in World War I. And when. they came back, they were like, "You. guys, you got to try these. They're. amazing.". >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean it was kind of. perfect for a foxhole because it was. much quicker than a cigar. Um like you. know you said you can smoke a cigar for. an hour and you didn't have that kind of. time if you just wanted a quick nicotine. fix. Uh the cigarette was kind of. perfect for wartime and buddy did they.

explode. Uh Camel cigarettes in 1913. um sold about a million packs of. cigarettes. Or is that a million. cigarettes? >> A million packs. >> A million packs of cigarettes. In 1914, they sold 425 million packs. And by. 1919, they sold 21 billion packs of. cigarettes. >> Yeah. Which not coincidentally uh was. after World War I ended and all of those. uh men fighting in World War I came back.

with pretty healthy little cigarette. habits by then. >> That's an astounding number. And I knew. it was going to be a lot, but that kind. of jump. I mean, you can can you imagine. the kind of money they were making? >> I know. And that's just Camel. cigarettes. That's not all cigarettes. That's just one Camel. Yeah. >> Um, another thing World War I did was. kind of change the United States's view. on life and was like, "Okay, a lot of. people just died and maybe we should. start thinking of life as a little more. valuable and precious and relax a little.

bit and enjoy ourselves." And one of the. >> So we'll smoke. >> Exactly. Right. One of the upshots of that was that um I. guess norms and expectations around. women really loosened up and one of the. things that women did almost immediately. was they started smoking. It became. socially acceptable for women to start. smoking and the tobacco companies. clapped their hands together and rubbed. them and just started drooling at the. jowls. >> Oh yeah. Uh all of a sudden they were. targeting with advertising campaigns. about how glamorous it was, how feminine.

it was, how independent you were if you. were a smoker as a woman. Yep. >> Uh, this is also a very fun fact. Philip. Morris, the Marlboro cigarette, which I. have always associated with like. >> Cowboy Killers. >> Yeah. Like a dude cigarette, Cowboy. Killers. That the Marlboro man and the. famous Sunset Boulevard uh, you know, cutout that was there forever. >> And Kramer, don't forget Kramer was the. Marlboro man for a minute. >> That's right. He was. Uh, but the. Marlboro cigarette, I have such a hard. time saying that.

>> It's hard to say. Uh, it was launched as. a women's cigarette. Uh, it was it was. known as Mild as May. And, uh, I'm not. sure when that switched, but that's kind. of a fun little fact. >> I I vow to pick up mild as May is a. phrase I'm going to start using. >> I like that. >> Uh, lucky strike was also like, hey, uh, rather than reaching for a sweet, which. will eventually disappoint your husband, reach for a Lucky Strike instead. Just. smoke anytime you have a chocolate. craving.

>> Uh, yeah. and all those accessories. Uh. that Hey, listen again, kids, don't. smoke. But I I'd be a liar if I didn't. say in an old movie when someone took. out one of those little slender. cigarette cases. >> and popped out a cigarette from that. neat row and tapped it on the outside of. that metal case. >> I don't know. It was pretty cool looking. to to young Chuck. >> Yeah, I recently read Rebecca by Daphne. Demorier. Have you ever read that? >> No. Was it the Rebecca Hitchcock movie? Rebecca,

>> I think Hitchcock may have made it. Yeah. And that that tracks because I. think it was written in the early 30s. Um, have you seen the movie? Was it. about a woman who is uh basically living. in the shadow of her husband's first. wife? >> Yeah. >> Yes. So, that's that that's the book. But people. >> Great under undervalued Hitchcock movie, by the way. >> It's a great book, too. Um, but people. bust out cigarette cases like every. couple paragraphs in there and offer. cigarette and everyone smokes after. after tea and all this stuff. So I I.

know exactly what you're talking about. It it just stuck out to me. I think I. guess as a 21st century person. >> knowing what smoking does, looking at. people who were living in a time when. they didn't know what smoking did. It's. kind of not funny to see, but it's just. it's just bizarre to look back like. that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there were I. remember in college in Athens, it was. always one like classy co-ed who like. carried her cigarettes in a case and. maybe even had one of those little. cigarette holder extenders or whatever. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Because, you know, they were like,

"Hey, look at me. I'm different." And. uh, you know, I'm an art major, so this. is what we do. >> I'm like faking Audrey Heburn here. Uh the other thing that happened was. they started um putting cigarette. lighters in cars in I think 1925 1926 is. when they became standard. >> Oh yeah. >> In cars. A little push button cigarette. lighter. So now they're saying like. smoke everywhere. >> Yeah. And it just so happens 1925 1926. is when the first cars came out. basically. So right out of the gate they.

had cigarette lighters. Huh. >> Yeah. And right out of the gate, uh, movie stars started smoking on screen, men and women, and started getting, uh, deals, started getting sponsorship deals. with certain cigarette companies. >> Yeah. You could get 150 grand plus a. year supply of Lucky Strikes if your. smoking was sponsored by Lucky Strike, which I think Joan Crawford, Spencer. Tracy, Gary Cooper, they all had those. deals with Lucky Strikes. So they would. out in public be smoking Lucky Strikes, but during interviews they'd also stop.

and be like, "Wow, this Lucky Strike is. so mild, smooth or whatever." Um, like. they would talk about it like as if it. were, you know, how people try to place. ads or they used to, I don't know if. they still do in podcasts where suddenly. we'd just be talking about a product and. it' take you a second to catch up. That's what they used to do with Lucky. Strikes. >> Yeah. And they're like, "They sent me a. year supply." So they sent me 10,000. packs of cigarettes. >> Exactly. It's not. So, there's just tons. of stars smoking. They were literally.

sponsored by tobacco companies. And even. if you weren't, you could still be. pitching them in regular ads. And. there's a push today to, I think. retroactively and moving forward, um, give our ratings to movies that have. smoking in them, which I hadn't heard. of, but I ran across that recently. >> Yeah, I heard about that. Uh, much. different back then, obviously, uh, by. the middle of the 20th century. Um, cigarettes had 81% of the tobacco. market. So, people really ditched the.

the chaw and the snuff for cigarettes, uh, generally speaking. And people, you. know, pregnant women were smoking. Uh, you smoke in the movie theater, smoke on. planes, on buses, in the office. Your. doctor would smoke in front of you. during an appointment. >> People reading the news on TV would be. smoking while they were giving you the. news. It's crazy when you look back at. old like TV show either, not just. episodes, but like Dick Cavit show and. stuff like that just like everybody was. smoking all the time. >> Yeah. I mean, there were ads that were.

doctors recommending a certain kind of. cigarette because they were smoother, they made you cough less or something. like that. It was just absolutely crazy. Um, but eventually people started. getting hip to the idea that these. things might kind of be bad for us. I. think as far back as the 1760s, there. was a doctor named John Hill who wrote. cautions against the immodderate use of. snuff because he'd noticed that people. who were using snuff tobacco, which is. exactly what it sounds like. It's.

powdered tobacco you sniff like it's a a. bump of cocaine uh that they were um he. had observed naval nasal swellings and. excreances in snuff users. And he's. like, "What even is that?" It's I think. puffy lumps in their noses. >> and he's like I think those are probably. cancerous and this is back in the 1760s. >> Yeah. So that's super early on. Uh in. 1900. uh they finally put like tobacco.

extract. They did like official. scientific tests. They put tobacco. extracts um they applied it to guinea. pigs of course and they saw cellular. activity associated with cancer. development. uh they linked it to cheek cancer as. early as 1928 and then about a decade. after that um they said you know what if. you smoke you're not going to live as. long. >> No. Um and then I think by 1950 they. started having enough studies that they. could do meta analysis essentially and. say uh if you smoke you're have a higher.

chance of getting lung cancer than. somebody who doesn't smoke. Four years. after that, they a British medical. journal published a study that said that. s that cigarettes were killing doctors. in significant numbers, too. And the. fact that doctors are now dying from. smoking cigarettes, that kind of got. people's attention. >> Yeah. And these were all unfiltered. basically up until 1950. Um in 1950, the. Winston cigarette uh was the first one. to come out as a mass marketed filtered.

cigarette. Uh, and again, um, you know, it it it helps a little bit. It's not. like the filter is completely use. useless, but it's not filtering out it. It was largely a ruse to say, "Hey, they're saying smoking is bad for you, so now we've added a thing to make it. safe.". >> Yeah, I read that initially it was an. earnest attempt to create a healthier, less deadly cigarette. >> and they were just like, "Well, we. failed at this." But now we've basically. fooled people into thinking the filters.

are actually doing something. We have to. keep filters on forever. Um, and yeah, it very quickly just became a device. Um, rather than something that actually. worked. It can it can catch some. particulate matter, but it's doing. nothing to the to the gases in the. smoke. They're just coming through fully. toxic. But again, smokers were like, "Okay, great. We've got that licked. We. have filters now. Let's all go back to. smoking as much as we want. >> Yeah. I think uh by year uh 1965 42%.

of American adults smoked. Uh in 1980 it. went down to 33. By 95 it was down to. 25. 2010 19%. And just a couple years. ago in 2023 11%. Um but that's that's nuts. Like 40 like. close to half of American adults in the. 60s were smoking. Well, it's funny is. based on old movies and TVs and books. and stuff like that or TV shows and. books. Um I that seems low to me.

>> Yeah, it looks like 100%. >> Yeah, it really does for sure. But yeah, >> I wonder who didn't smoke. Like half the. people probably just were like I mean. I'm sure some people were like this. seems really unhealthy, but some people. you know they make your fingers smell. nasty. They make your your breath gross. >> That probably had a lot to do with. >> I would guess so too. And then also, I. mean, if back in the 20s they were like, you you can get mouth and cheek cancer. from it, it's it probably trickled out. to some people more than others, you.

know, >> for sure. So, they add the the filter, but a lot of R&D and money was spent. because all of a sudden, you're adding. this barrier between uh the smoker and. the smoke. And so they had to invest a. lot of money into making sure like the. draw was correct and that you weren't, you know, what they didn't want was was. for you to lose any of that habit. forming nicotine. >> Um, so they put a lot of dough into um, I guess like you said, probably. earnestly trying to reduce some toxins,

but also make sure that experience. stayed the same to keep people smoking. cigarettes. >> Yeah. And they spent billions of dollars. figuring this out because if you're a. smoker and you have to like if you have. a crushed filter, it makes it hard to. draw through and it's essentially a. ruined cigarette because the you don't. like you don't want to have to. >> have to exert any kind of um effort in. smoking and if you do it's just a it's. not worth it. So they could not mess. with the smoking experience. they had to.

make it as good or better while also. preserving all the best parts of an. unfiltered cigarette. What they. essentially came up with was to um use. more porous paper than actually poke. like little tiny holes in the seam where. the tobacco uh comes up against the. filter which is sealed as you talked. about by that tipping paper. But they. they poked little holes in that end of. the tipping paper so that more outside. air could be sucked in and mixed with. the smoke so it was a milder smoke. And.

from what I can tell, light cigarettes, that's it. They have more tiny holes. than a a non light a regular cigarette. That's the only difference. Um. >> yeah, it's not like lighter chemical. additives or lesser chemical additives. and stuff like that, right? But the big. tobacco companies are very happy for you. to walk around thinking that that's what. it means. But all it means is it's it. just hits you lighter because it has. more um little micro holes in that. tipping paper at the end.

>> Wow. Uh should we take another break? >> Yes. >> All right. We'll be right back right. after this. [Music].

So, there are different, you know, sizes. of cigarettes. Uh, if you've ever been a. smoker or worked in a convenience store. or something like I did at the Golden. Pantry in Athens, Georgia, you learn a. lot about cigarettes. >> and what kind of people smoke what kind. of cigarettes. This is pretty. interesting actually. >> Yeah. I worked at um a last chance gas. station and liquor store and we sold. cigarettes for $125 a pack which is far. and away the cheapest cigarettes in all. of Athens. So we had a lot of people. come in there too. >> What was the cheapest brand? Do you I.

totally remember the ones that we had. >> I don't remember what they were back. then. the cheapest cigarettes. And these. are the pe this is the stuff I always. felt the worst about was when people. were like I can only afford to buy the. barebones swept off the floor tobacco. cigarette brand. >> Uh that was just more depressing to me. even. Uh and in our store they were. bucks. >> I don't remember those at all. >> Had a big antler deer on the front of it. and bucks were really cheap compared to. the other ones. So I can't imagine what.

was in those things. >> That sounds very scary. Uh but there are. different lengths uh different kinds of. filters. I remember the parliaments had. the recess filter uh occasionally when I. had cigarettes here and there and New. Jersey that's a lot of people smoke. parliaments. Uh you can have those long. 120s. They're called extra longs. Um and. different diameters uh including uh. something I tried in college. occasionally was the old camel wide. >> Oh, I forgot about those. >> Remember those plugs? >> Yep. I went the opposite direction. And. I smoked a Capri Ultras Slim 120s for a.

little while. >> Are you serious? >> They were essentially as big around as. like a popsicle or um a sucker stick. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I I remember uh my. friend Justin's mother smoked those and. uh I never saw anyone that wasn't a mom. smoke those. >> Yeah. I took a lot of crap back in the. day cuz I would smoke those. I smoked. Virginia Slims for a while. >> That's really funny. I don't remember. how either of those came to be my brand, but I would guess that I started smoking. Capri because I like the watercolor.

design on the box. That's probably what. first caught my attention. >> You always marched have marched to the. beat of your own drum. So, I could see. Josh Clark doing that just to be. different. >> Yeah, >> they were good though. I liked them. Oh, wait. Let me rephrase that. Kids, kids, please don't listen to any kind of. nostalgic tone in anything I'm saying. because if I could go back and do it. again, I never ever ever would have. smoked. Quitting smoking was the single. hardest thing I've ever done in my. entire life by far. It is definitely not.

worth it. >> Yeah, totally. Uh, I was a the dreaded. social smoker who all my smoker friends. uh hated because I could always take it. or leave it and it never got its it. never got its hooks in me as as far as. an addiction goes. >> That I just that just did not compute. with me. But I was always in awe of. people like you. >> Yeah. I was the one who would bum the. cigarettes off my smoker friends. >> and they were always nice about it. Uh I. was not the guy at the party who lit the. filtered in because I had too much to.

drink. I was the guy who would smoke. with the flu. >> or the guy that if you if the cigarette. broke, the tobacco and broke a little. bit, you would hold your finger around. that part just so you could still not. waste that cigarette. >> But again, we're not waxing nostalgic, everybody. >> So, where are we, Chuck? Oh, uh, we were. talking about some innovations at the. time, I guess. >> Uh, yeah. I mean one innovation uh and. by innovation we means terrible things. cigarette companies did to make them.

worse and more addictive basically. >> So like innovation for them. >> uh was what's called um puffed or. expanded tobacco and that's when they. soak tobacco leaves in ammonia and freon. to make them puff out and increase their. volume. They swell up some and then they. freeze dry that and they do that so they. can get more cigarettes out of less of a. tobacco purchase or harvest. >> Yeah, it's just a space filler. And from. what I saw, Freon, they only used that. only for about 30 years that.

discontinued a couple decades ago. But. ammonia is still very very much an. ingredient in cigarettes. One of the big. things ammonia does is it allows you to. absorb freebased nicotine more easily. So, you get more nicotine out of each. puff of cigarette, which a lot of um. observers point to is clear evidence. that um tobacco companies went out of. their way to make their products more. addictive.

>> Yeah, for sure. Uh also, we should. mention while we were kind of talking. about what kinds of people smoke what. cigarettes and if you work at a. convenience store, you kind of see. repeated patterns. Uh it's clear if. you've ever sold cigarettes that. African-Americans uh tend to prefer. menthol cigarettes. I think more than. 85% of black smokers smoke menthols. And. once again uh the tobacco companies. found this out kind of uh during the. civil rights movement and they were. like, "Hey, we found a new target. demographic of people that we can try.

and kill and market to.". >> Yeah. Because about the same time as the. civil rights movement was just barely. starting and the black press became an. actual viable outlet for national brands. to advertise in all of a sudden um. menthol cigarettes became a thing. Salem, Newport, Cool, Alpine all came. out within a year or two of each other. Alpine's not around anymore. Um, and so. just by essentially, I guess targeted. happen stance, the tobacco companies. started heavily advertising menthols in.

the black press. And so that eventually. came to be the favorite kind of. cigarette among black people in America. And I read an article by a guy named. Alan Blum, who is the director of the. Center for the Study of Tobacco and. Society. and he kicked out an estimate. that about a third of the ads in some. issues of Ebony and Jet magazines um. black oriented national magazines in the. US were for tobacco products mostly. cigarettes mostly menthol cigarettes.

>> Yeah. I mean that's that's crazy. A. third uh and then in 1990 uh some people. say like peak um targeted uh advertising. and branding came when R.J. Reynolds was. uh going to release their Uptown menthol. cigarette. >> The first cigarette made like. specifically targeted toward black. Americans. They did a bunch of market. research and RJR was like, "Hey, you. know what they'll really like is this. classy black and gold package and the. name uh Uptown Cigarettes. Uh they were.

the only cigarettes with um had the. filters down in the pack uh because the. company found through research that. black smokers open uh open packs from. the bottom so they could grab the. tobacco in to avoid crushing that filter. >> uh and or to keep their fingers from. being on it because that's the part that. went into their mouth. So they literally. flipped how they package cigarettes to. appeal to black customers. >> Yes. And this did not land well um with.

uh people in the United States. There. happened to be a black health and human. services secretary at the time named. Lewis Sullivan and he bucked tradition. and directly targeted Uptown Cigarettes. and R.J. Reynolds as basically a vile. product that needed to be um removed. from the shelves. It hadn't been. released yet. It the release was. targeted for February of 1990. not. coincidentally, Black History Month. Um, and enough of a a protest erupted in the.

US led by Lewis Sullivan, um, that R.J. Reynolds withdrew it before they could. ever roll them out and and sell Uptown. cigarettes. >> Harrah for them. >> But the upshot of this is is that like. you said, 85% of black smokers smoke. menthols. And um, because of the. apparent feeling of menthols, it feels. nothing like you're killing yourself. In. fact, it almost feels refreshing in some. cases. Um, the black press relying so.

much on tobacco advertising that they. didn't tend to cover the dangers of. smoking um like uh like mainstream. press. >> Um, heavily targeted advertising in. black communities. By 1990, black. Americans had a 58% higher rate of lung. cancer than white people. And it still. goes on today. There is a national ban. on flavored cigarettes, but menthol got. exempted because black le community. organizations uh tend to lobby the white.

house to prevent menthols being um taken. out of circulation because those groups. tend to be funded by tobacco companies. Essentially, they're fronts for the. tobacco company lobby. And this one 2012. study found that nearly 40% of black. smokers said they would quit if there. weren't menthols any longer. So the. tobacco companies have a lot to lose and. half of an an entire market if menthols. are done away with like all the other. flavors. It's the only flavor still.

allowed in the US. >> Pretty despicable stuff. Uh so you're. probably wondering like, hey, if. smoking's so terrible, um surely it. started to wayne. And I I gave you some. stats earlier and it has and that's. because uh in the 1960s. we started slow rolling a little bit. more uh warnings, surgeon general. warnings. Uh in ' 64 the surgeon general. released smoking and health. Uh this is. a report that basically said it's the.

single largest contributor to lung. cancer in men. Uh it's linked to. premature birth. uh it'll increase your. risk of a fatal heart attack by 70%. Uh. in ' 65, just a year later, they started. uh mandating warning labels on packs. In. 1970, they said you can't advertise on. TV and radio, even though in print you. still could. >> And then in 1972, finally, the surgeon. general said, and this was really the. beginning of of the change of how they.

were viewed and like public smoking. Uh. in 72 they said involuntary smoking, which is secondhand smoke, it's also. really bad for you. Um we're just going. to leave it there. And 14 years later in. the mid 80s, they said it can actually. give you lung cancer. Like you cannot. smoke at all and be around smokers and. get lung cancer. >> Yeah, that happened to Screech from Save. by the Bell. Dustin Diamond died of lung. cancer and he never smoked a cigarette. in his life. Apparently he attributed it. to staying in cheap hotels where you.

could smoke still. Oh, interesting. I mean, I remember my. my parents never smoked or anything, but. I remember having friends whose parents. smoked in the car with the windows. rolled up. >> Yeah, that's nuts. I I lived in college. with a guy who did that. I was just I. even as a smoker, I was like, "This is. wrong. There's something really wrong. with this.". >> Oh god. In the car. Like, good luck. selling that thing. >> But yeah, also your kids in the back. seat. Like, that was definitely a thing.

>> Yeah. I mean, well, the other thing we. should mention that I never really. thought about until this is that smoke. isn't even going through a filter. So, what little work the filter is doing, that sidream smoke is just going right. into your lung. >> Yeah. And even your exhaled smoke. contains a lot of toxins that are just. getting right back out that are part of. secondhand smoke, too. So, yes, that. definitely changed the calculus of how. people viewed smoking. It wasn't like a. you're killing yourself thing anymore. It was a you're killing all of us thing. now. And that definitely led to bands in.

um restaurants, movie theaters, all all. over the place. I remember I was I think. I've said before I was one of the last. smokers on a international flight. >> Yeah. >> In the '9s on the way to the. Netherlands. >> Um that just seems bizarre to me now too. that especially that it was that recent. >> But finally America came around and was. like, you can't smoke indoors anymore in. public places. And another thing. simultaneously was people started. banning smoking in their own homes. that. was simultaneous to governmentmandated.

smoking bans in public places. People. were making that choice as well. So, smokers were getting pushed further and. further out of the um mainstream. essentially. >> Yeah. Like literally outside like uh you. had to start telling people like, "I'm. sorry, there's a non-smoking house.". the the idea of somebody walking into my. house and lighting up a cigarette is so. bizarre sounding like it it seems like a. hundred years ago that people were doing. that but we lived through it like I.

remember all that. >> Yeah. Oh, for sure. I had a house that. we smoked in and it was Man, >> it's crazy how much things have changed. in just a couple of decades ago. >> Yeah. Because now if somebody did that. it's like a hostile act like they're. they're slapping you in the face like. they mean to be starting something as. Michael Jackson said. Yeah, I'm going to screw up your house. right now. >> Yeah, what are you going to do about it? >> I'm going to smoke next to your cat. >> Poor cat. Although, I'll bet cats smoke. if they could. >> That's true.

>> You're probably right. Uh the other. thing that came in the early 90s when. everyone said or when the all the health. experts said, "Hey, you know, you need. to quit smoking if you want to live." Um. is all of a sudden there were nicotine. patches and nicarette gum and stuff like. that. all kinds of quitting aids that. hit the market um that were also big. money. >> Yeah. Something else I found and that. stuff worked and what also worked I. really want to do an episode just on. this was that big tobacco settlement. among the state's attorneys general in.

the US that just. >> yeah we should cover. >> crippled the um the tobacco industry and. really helped lead to its downfall um. because they had to keep handing over. all these documents they had that were. so damning and then the the press would. just run story after story about this. stuff and it really turned a lot of. people off on on tobacco. But I remember. when vaping started to be a thing and I. was like, "No, how did this happen?". Like we we like the anti- tobacco forces. won. They won. They beat big tobacco.

One of the most powerful groups in the. world got beaten by the people who were. like, "No, we shouldn't be smoking." And. then vaping came along. So, um, Julia. turned up this statistic that I found. very heartening. She said that in 2019. 28% of uh high school students in the US. vaped cigarettes essentially. Three. years later it was 10%. So it was great. >> Yeah. Cut by 2/3. So I attribute that. almost exclusively to our vaping app.

where we really came out against it. >> Uh either way, whether that had anything. to do with it or not, I was really happy. to see that. I think Gen Z has been known so far for. avoiding some of the trappings of these. vices of previous generations. I've I've. read that they're smoking less and. they're drinking less and. >> that's great. They seem to be a little. smarter. Um. >> yeah, >> there's another stat here that I thought. was pretty interesting was um when I was. talking about uh percentage of smokers.

in 1965, 42% smoked. In 1980, it was. 33%. Mhm. >> Um but there were more cigarettes sold. in the early8s. Um in 1965 at 42%. smoking they sold 521 billion. cigarettes. >> Uh that dropped to 33% of the population. smoking but they sold 637. billion. So fewer people seemingly. smoking more cigarettes. >> I would guess that in that interim the. tobacco companies figured out how to.

make their product more addictive then. Yeah, >> that's when it would have happened. That'd be my guess. >> Yeah, probably. though. >> Well, I can't wait to tee off on that um. tobacco settlement episode whenever we. do it. But this is a this is a good one. I thought this was a good idea, Chuck. I'm glad you selected it. >> Thanks. I mean, they're not hurting. Uh. 2023, Philip Morris raked in 35 almost $. 36 billion. So, they're doing okay. And. people in different countries is. different. I think Americans smoke less. >> Uh I mean, when I've traveled through.

Europe, a lot of people smoke. I know in. uh in Asian countries there's a lot of. smoking. >> Yeah, it's everywhere. Yeah. Right. Right after I quit, we went to Japan and. it they smoked they smoked during a. funeral. >> Yeah. >> And I was sitting there like I want one. of those so bad. >> Yeah. When we were in Vegas uh. collecting our lifetime achievement. award a couple years ago. >> Yes. >> I went to a dinner at a uh really nice. Chinese restaurant in one of the. casinos. Unfortunately, it was a smoking.

casino. >> and you know, the the restaurants aren't. like walled off. It's just kind of part. of the casino. >> Uh there was a group of young Japanese. men, probably in their late teens to. early 20s, like 13 of them, standing. just on the other side of where our. table was and just chain smoking. >> Wow. >> Over and over and over to the point. where I was like, man, this has. legitimately ruined this awesome meal. >> Yeah, that sucks. It does. It definitely. can. It can. I just one person smoking.

can ruin a meal. I can't imagine 13. >> Yeah, but Oh, boy. They were loving. them. >> They were pretty happy smoking those. cigarettes. >> Uh, you got anything else? >> I got nothing else. >> All right. Well, that's it for. cigarettes, everybody. Um, thanks for. listening. And since I said thanks for. listening and Chuck's got nothing else, you put those two together and we've. just unlocked listener mail. Uh correction for for Josh during our uh. >> oh boy. >> listener mail a couple of this isn't a.

big one. Hey guys, long time listener, first- time writer. Uh reference to the. listener mail in the USA ID episode. Josh mentioned Red Tail or Red Hawk. beer. Uh and said it was from Adesto, but the beer is Mendescino. >> Yeah, I remember now. >> Uh given the similary and those names, it's easy to confuse these very. different California towns. I can. personally confirm Mendescino Brewing. Company was and uh now still is a great. brewery. They ceased operation in 2018, but were purchased and are now back in. production in Hopland, which is in.

Mendescino County. Thanks for everything. you do, you guys. That's from Devon in. California. Very nice, Devin. Thank you. for that. Uh and yeah, it's still a good. beer even if it is from Mendescino. rather than Modesto. >> Yeah, we just want to shout out the. right town. >> Yeah, but thank you for being gentle. I. appreciate it. Not calling me a dipstick. or anything like that. >> That's not dipstick worthy. >> Who was it again? I know I just said. their name. >> Uh, that's Devon. >> Devin. Thanks a lot, Devin. And if you. want to be like Devon, you can send us.

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