The Gullibility Episode | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and we're flying. solo again which means we hopefully. won't crash this joint uh and this is. stuff you should know that's right. that's. right how are you man you're still sick. huh yeah I mean and this is kind of I. mean I don't like playing it this close.

but it's kind of fun to be uh a little. more current with like listener mails. and updates and stuff yeah it keeps us. on the edge where we need to be yeah so. this will be out on Tuesday I guess and. in real time this is the day after the. uh automat oyster stew. debacle I don't know if it was a debacle. that turned out to be a pretty good up. uh and Aaron Cooper already came through. um oh good I haven't seen it yet yeah. it's funny uh I'm okay I'm you know uh. things subside in the early afternoon so. I'm actually feeling a little better. than it like 20 minutes ago even but man.

that's crazy yeah I just I got to go to. the doctor and just get it over with you. do I heard that there's a really bad. norovirus going around and I that's got. to be what you got man it going around. Mexico City going around the world oh. really yeah Mexico cities included H. this feels bacterial dir reticulitis. related oh that's true I forgot you got. that yeah well there's still a neuro. virus going around so don't catch that. too I'll try but I'm hanging in there I.

am working on less than 300 calories a. day for 5 days now so I am a shell of. human you're going to look lean and mean. buddy have you been doing push-ups I. can't do one push-up right now there's. no way uh well Chuck I guess it's. entirely possible since I haven't seen. you I've just you know been talking to. you while we record I have no idea. whether you're actually sick or not and. it's entirely possible that you're. fooling me right now oh and if you are I.

would argue that doesn't make me. gullible because I generally believe. you're. trustworthy um there's no reason to. believe that you're not sick so really. you'd just be a shameful dirty liar and. I would be the hero in this situation. that's right uh this is on gullibility. and this um you know we were just. talking Offline that there are I think a. hundred different ways to approach this. kind of topic and sometimes that's like. freeing and sometimes that's really uh.

frustrating mhm and I think this one was. a little frustrating uh Livia put. together a great article I think but. it's just a hard one when I pitched it. to her I was like you know what I feel. like especially here in America we're at. Peak gullibility as a nation and like I. just wondered like is there any science. to that like are people more gullible. than others and can science be gullible. and this is what we came up with yeah. interestingly yes science can be. gullible on the other hand um you could.

argue that Americans aren't more. gullible than usual that there's. actually just different factors involved. that make people want to believe things. maybe um it it's a it's it's weird I. think one of the reasons why it's so. hard to wrap our head around is social. psychologists are still trying to wrap. their head around it totally and and you. know what happens when social social. psychologists get a hold of something oh. yeah it's an oyster stew party it's a. little unsteady as they figure it out. that's right it's an o stew party um so.

I think it's not it's not us is what I'm. trying to say and you dear listener if. you're like what is going on it's not. you either it's social psychology that's. right uh I guess we can start by talking. about um I mean we're going to talk. about a different a lot of different. people a lot of different people that. study this kind of stuff a lot of. different studies some of which make. more sense than others uh but this guy. Steph Greenspan is an author he wrote a. book he wrote the book on it um annals. of gullibility called.

why we are duped and how to avoid it and. one sort of important thing he does up. front is say hey there's a difference. between crul and gullibility uh. credulity is if you know you'll believe. something just without looking at all. the evidence and gullibility means. you're you have an active response to. perhaps being conned I take issue with. this right out of the gate I kind of did. too I think that's a terrible. distinction because I think you can. totally fall for something and be duped.

yeah and you be the only person who knew. that who knows it you know somebody. could say something that duped you and. they're they don't stop and focus to get. like that that um that question of. whether they duped you or not answered. they just keep going on but you know. you've been duped you don't have to. respond to a Nigerian prince email or. send somebody a bunch of Walmart cards. to get out of some random federal case. that's against you to to have been. gullible you just have to believe it uh.

in in usually in the absence of any kind. of supporting evidence and sometimes in. the presence of contradictory evidence. that's gullibility in in my in my. understanding that's you're you're. believing something without bothering to. go check it out um and that to me is the. Baseline of goal ability I totally agree. I I thought that definition was really. weird and I'm glad both are in here. though because sometimes it's a nice. contrast but uh along the lines of what.

you were saying there's a uh group of. researchers um social psychologist from. mcquery University there gonna be a lot. of Aussies in this uh you can say that. name better than that mcquery oh like. Aussie style yeah. mcquery not bad although anytime you do. that you sound like Murray from fight of. the Concord Murr present uh alisandra K. uh tunise maybe that's what I'm going. with um def find it much in the the way. you would and I would and I think a lot.

of people would which is simply the. propensity to accept a false premise in. the presence of un uh trustworthy. clues that that's it that's it you don't. have to act on it no you can just. believe what's up with no one in the. world could know besides you that you. believed in you're still gullible in. that sense the thing that I really stood. out to me that we'll talk about a lot. more though is um you could make a. really good case that people aren't as. gullible as other people think they are.

and I found that kind of reassuring. we'll talk about that later but I don't. I don't want anybody to get the. impression that we're just like yep. people are generally stupid and here's. how they fall for stupid stuff and. you're probably stupid too that's not. actually what the science of gullibility. has turned up no and there's a lot of. factors and this is where I think. Greenspan did kind of hit on something. his four factors of gullibility uh. situational like if there's a lot of if. everyone else is doing it and there's a. lot of social pressure like all all the.

Bros are investing in the same. cryptocurrency and it's at a great price. and you're like oh man I got to get in. there all the guys are you know. everyone's in on that so there's social. pressure where you can fall for. something uh cognitive issues like uh. well as we'll get to later with um you. know our senior friends sometimes. there's like legit brain cognitive. issues that's a different thing than. this but this is just lacking expertise. and you know you can't evaluate what. you're being told cuz you're just not uh.

I don't want to say smart enough you're. just not an expert in whatever that is. yeah you're not informed enough in that. particular thing yeah what else uh. personality is another one if you're. impulsive this a big one a big one if. you're low in curiosity you're like I. don't care just tell me what to think. I'm too lazy to go figure it out myself. uh I got better things to do than think. or if you have a high need for. Independence and this struck me quite a. bit because if you're if you're. Independence minded you.

don't need smarty pants Pencil Neck. college boys telling you m what's right. or what's wrong or what's true or what's. false you can figure it out yourself. yeah and those people are actually at. high risk of being duped which is really. surprising um but if you stop and think. about it it makes total sense they're. overconfident and that's a huge factor. in being gullible yeah I totally think. it makes sense um you know because it. happened to his. cousin that's.

right uh emotion can play a big factor. uh in a lot of ways and we'll talk about. some of those with some studies later on. but um one way is like if if let's say. we're specifically talking about being. conned if it gives you a positive. feeling whether it's a uh somebody. catfishing you and making you feel loved. or um you know some sort of financial. thing that you think might provide for. your long-term security or like oh man I. no one else knows about this deal but me. I'm so smart for getting in on the. ground floor here her mhm uh that kind.

of thing right and strangely ironically. almost as if he did it on purpose cuz it. supports everything he wrote about um. Step Greenspan the author of that book. about gal ability um he finished his. book and shortly afterward he was. informed by I guess his stock broker. that he had lost a bunch a bunch of. money by investing in Bernie maid off's. P scheme with the ironies huh so he was. like even the guy that researched this. and wrote the book on gullibility can. fall for it that's a really great little.

tidbit yeah but I think it also goes to. show just how specific goal ability is. because I don't get the impression that. step Greenspan was like this madeof guy. is making a lot of really great points. and this is incredibly high risk but I'm. going to go along with it anyway like he. went through a stock broker and. everything so there's only a certain. amount of goal ability it's. just Bernie maid off is like shorthand. for fooling people you know what I mean.

totally um not to pick on stepen. Greenspan or anything like that no I. feel very bad for him despite his uh. poor. definition right um so some other people. have said well we really want to show. off as social psychologist we're going. to create a goal ability scale and in. fact Alexandra tunise from uh mcquary. University I'm not even going to try. that one um but it's Australian for. University. um sorry austral ions there's this beer.

called Fosters that here in America we. think you drink a lot of and in America. the ad campaign says Fosters it's. Australian for beer I love that you. barely use an accent you just say it. seriously and that gets the point across. right it makes people pay attention. Australian for beer got it that's that's. the best I can do that's how I think. Australians talk uh yeah so this. gullibility scale with.

self-reported uh basically like do. self-reported meaning um do you think. others do you perceive yourself as. gullible and do you think others. perceive you as gullible MH uh and then. they you know they filled in with some. other questions like how persuadable are. you and stuff like that and it actually. for a self-reported study which you know. a lot of those can be tough um this. seemed to work out pretty good for them. don't you think it did because they. backed it up they um I can't remember. what it's called but they tested the.

validity they tested the validity of. this self-reporting um panel and found. that um the people who reported. themselves or scored the highest on gal. ability on this test were more likely to. click a link on a fishing email than. people who scored low so it it seems. like a valid test and one of the things. I went and looked it up Chuck and one of. the questions wasn't even a question it. was you are very persuadable and the. only uh option to check was yes ah what.

no I'm kidding oh man this is so. upsetting it's all right you're you're. not at 100% at all I didn't think you. would take advantage of this. today it was more of the joke I wasn't. trying to take advantage of you although. I realize now that I did I all all for. the show uh on that scale uh they found. some traits that were common uh among. those that scored high in goal ability. social intelligence was one of them mhm. that'll keep coming back over and over.

uh vulnerability um emotionality which. we've talked about a little bit uh weak. sense of self which also comes up uh in. different ways I think you found an. article about how parents can wreck kids. by not giving them self-confidence right. and they'll end up gullible yeah pretty. much and and depending on and it doesn't. even have to be like you're such a. stupid kid every day it can just be. things like where you're your opinion is. not really heard or validated or just. all sorts of little missteps that. parents can make that make parenting a. living nightmare um you can carry on as.

an adult and it can make you doubt your. own opinion so you're not going to speak. up it can make you be afraid of looking. stupid so you don't ask questions. because you don't want to seem like I I. don't I didn't immediately get it so I'm. going to look dumb if I ask these. questions there's all like it just sets. you up for being more likely to be a. victim of being duped than somebody who. has a lot of confidence yeah I have a. good friend who had a pretty pretty bad. stepfather and the abuse in this.

situation was exclusively he made him. feel stupid at every opportunity that is. so wrong that guy should be in jail uh. he's passed on now but it's. uh I can't think of any I mean there are. all kinds of things that are worse. obviously but something so damaging for. such a small person to do that to a. child yeah and literally like oh you. think so like you know just that's how. he was talked to his whole life growing. up it's.

that is rough and he's super gullible oh. is he really no actually I don't I don't. think so oh you got me back there you go. uh we should just do that to one another. like every minute or two uh one thing we. should mention though because this pops. up a couple of times and I think it's. super fascinating is another trait they. found on the gullibility scale if you. were very gullible was belief in. Paranormal Activity yeah just park it. right there but I guess that depends on. whether Paranormal Activity is real or. not you know well I guess so.

I mean that's described from a a point. point of view where you're like that's. all fake anyway so yeah duh um one of. the things about social intelligence. that's worth pointing out so that's. basically a a package that you can have. um some people are much better at it. than others but basically everyone alive. in a society has some degree or other of. this package of skills that form social. intelligence like um whether or not. you're good at. conversation um whether you are good at. effective listening um what your.

knowledge of like social roles and. social scripts are um and then awareness. of like what make other people tick and. then what people think of you and you. put all this together and if you have. like high emotional or social. intelligence you're going to be able to. navigate um interactions with other. people much better than somebody with. low intelligence part of that is not. getting scammed by somebody by being. able to be like you're a scammer and I'm. not going to send you a Walmart gift. card no yeah and it and it's a trait I.

think that you can't necessarily teach. but is really beneficial to have as a. human yeah I admire people with high. social intelligence because it's not. just you know being able to to um spot a. scammer it's it's being able to see the. best in other people and I think to. bring out the best in other people and. let them bring out the best in you and. that's just it's maybe in another life. maybe in the next lifetime for me oh. buddy I think you're great uh they did. another study at the University of Le. where um they found that um childhood.

traumas can really affect you later in. life in terms of gullibility like any. kind of bullying uh a death of a family. member or something like that uh it. leads you more susceptible to fall for. uh tricks later in life uh and. apparently they say it could be because. that kind of trauma just makes it hard. to trust your own judgments and you know. I guess everyone else's intent for sure. and then some people because it's. actually kind of counter intutive you. think if you've gone through the School.

of Hard Knocks I think is the way that. the study put it you would think that. they'd come out like much more World. wary and like suspicious of people and. so they'd be less likely to fall for a. scam but no instead like you said they. they just they question their own. judgment for having gone through what. they went through so that's terrible it. is it is very terrible childhood is just. fraught you know it really is it's a. wonder any of us can function in any. like real way oh know I mean we're.

pretty good parents but I often think. like how are we messing her up cuz I I. know we are in some way yep I mean I. can't I can't imagine like that's got to. just keep you up at night sometimes if. you think about it too much you know I. sleep pretty good good you just wake up. to throw up every hour uh yeah I think. just try to limit that stuff as a parent. like there's you can't be perfect uh I. mean my brother's a perfect parent but. there's only there's only. one Scott another thing I thought was. interesting and this makes total sense.

is if you rely on your intuition a lot. um you're a lot more vulnerable uh. vulnerable to being dup by something. just like you know some. people have a good gut uh and some. people think they have a good gut but do. not yes another one that really stood. out to me though that this this I would. not have predicted is the more cynical. you are Studies have found I like this. that the likelier you are to be gullible. or duped um and the reason why actually. makes tons of sense again if you're.

cynical you think you've got everything. figured out like you're just you think. the world sucks and everybody's trying. to take advantage of you and the. government's constantly screwing you. over and everyone's going to try to get. an angle on you that's cynicism right at. least in the modern sense and it's. actually a lazy shortcut to experiencing. reality because on the one hand you um. lose out in opportunity costs you miss a. lot of great stuff like you might not. make friends that you could have made.

because you were suspicious of this. stranger chatting you up at the outset. or something like that yeah but as far. as gal ability goes you're if somebody. comes along and talks to you in your. language they can pull one over on you. much more easily because they are. tapping into your cynicism which again. is just lazy shorthand for experiencing. reality it's based largely on intuition. and supposition and not necessarily. taking each experience and looking at it.

based on the facts as a unique thing it. all has this one cast to it that's the. same and that's just not how the world. actually works yeah and I think you know. that kind of suggests that if there's uh. like a country with an. authoritarian leader in place like uh. the the the simple sort of uh easy to. understand radical solutions that are. pitched out often times in those. situations are very easy to fall for if. you're a gullible person because that. itself is a a mental shortcut well we.

just got we just got to do this for sure. and then conversely too um not being. cynical requires way more brain power. and thought and just. participation than being cynical does. like you have to actually like ask. yourself like is this true um what kind. of um source is this coming from I might. need to go do some research I might need. to ask people it's just so much easier. be like nope they're screwing me over I.

don't even need to bother to look into. that because you're also defending. yourself at the same time from getting. taken advantage of again until somebody. comes along and is talking your language. and then you will um oftentimes fall for. whatever they're saying yeah uh should. we take a break yeah all right we'll. take a break and uh talk about um mood. right after this. [Music].

you all right we're back we promised to. talk a little bit about mood uh because. the fact is you uh are not always. gullible or always not gullible um. Everybody um could get duped at any time. from you know that changes from day to.

day sometimes from hour to hour. depending on a lot of factors like mood. uh if you're really really tired if. you're super distracted if you're upset. um you may not notice uh something that. can you know make you fall for a scam uh. also the the same holds if you're in a. really good mood uh you know if you're. just feeling great about everything. you're like yeah yes to life yes to. everything um there was a study in 1938. by a researcher named Gregory asz ran.

who found that giving a free lunch made. people more receptive to a political. message and apparently that is sort of. where like the sales lunch started uh. taking people out to sell them something. and feeding them you were more likely to. close a deal and I'm sure the same thing. like Golf Course uh sales things like. the salesperson's not out there beating. the person in golf that they're selling. to I guarantee it I don't know how that. works but I imagine you're letting them. win and feel good about stuff yeah think.

about how good you have to be to. purposefully lose at golf oh I could. play Bad Golf on purpose and I'm not. really yeah okay well I take that one. back and on accident um so yes but on. the contrary uh if you are in um upset. if you're sad if you're depressed if. you're mad um if you're in a low mood uh. you are actually more likely to pay. attention to granular things things I. think it actually kind of ties into.

rumination you're just thinking about. stuff you're turned inward so if. somebody comes along and tries to sell. you something yeah that makes sense it's. going to be harder to slip it past you. because you're paying attention more. than somebody who's like yeah whatever. let's have another round. right so overall if you think about. people who might be gullible you might. think uh in a in a you know if you're. going to stereotype it like people like. kids very young people mhm uh very old. people and people that aren't very well.

educated obviously uh but it's not. necessarily true um. what there's a lot of factors uh one of. which I mentioned earlier um you can get. you know a lot of skewed studies about. the goal ability of someone who's older. because if you're older you're more. likely to have a cognitive ability. that's literally keeping you from being. able to determine whether something is. true um but they've also conversely. found that sometimes they're a little. more protected because they're. constantly have their children and.

everyone else saying like no no no watch. out for scams they're trying to scam you. everyone's trying to scam you right yeah. so it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. that they are less likely to be scammed. because they're so Vigilant that's. amazing to me yeah so there was this one. study that kind of uh backed all this up. from the University of toron um and they. found they looked at adults 60 to 90 who. handled their own finances they didn't. have have any diagnosed cognitive issues.

um and they found that people who um had. reported being victims of a fraud there. was nothing that really happened or. there was no characteristic. demographically anything like that that. made them different from anybody else um. the only thing that seemed to really. kind of stick out was that they the. people who had been scammed before um. were a low had low conscientiousness one.

of the big five yeah they were less. honest humble which is another um. another kind of personality trait from a. different um scale yeah and that um from. what I could see the honesty thing. means they they explained it like you're. if you are low on honesty you're more. likely to try something that might be a. scam because you you might get rich. quick or something like that you're more. willing to take a shortcut say than.

somebody who would score higher on. honesty which you put you at greater. risk yeah but that was about it there. wasn't like you know the older you get. or the less educated you are in this. group you're more likely to get scammed. it was some other stuff entirely but. they found also that um people who do. experience cognitive decline do tend to. get taken advantage of more which is. really messed up yeah sad but it's true.

and as a matter of fact they've started. to some people have started to push this. idea like if you fall for a scam you. should immediately be tested for. Alzheimer's or dementia because there's. a high correlation with getting scammed. as an older person and the early early. developments of cognitive. decline got to feel terrible I mean it's. bad enough to feel like you're getting. scammed but then to stop and be like. well is this it for me in my mind yeah. absolutely uh I mean thankfully nothing.

like that's ever happened to my parents. but uh it's you hear those stories all. the time and it's just you know it's. tragic and shameful for sure um there. was a study in 2018 that I thought was. pretty interesting a uh woman named. Monica T witty uh another Aussie um when. talk about like being catfished which is. if I guess I threw that word out. assuming everyone knows it that's like. when you get scammed in a sort of a. romantic thing online uh by someone. who's pretending to be someone they're.

not generally we should do an episode on. that sometime CU I just don't I don't I. mean I get it but I don't understand. like where it started or anything like. that yeah let's put that down that would. be super interesting okay do you. remember the Notre Dame football player. yeah I thought he was isn't he like the. Dolphins quarterback now or no he I. don't think he's in the league anymore. he played the NFL for a little while but. he was a linebacker for Notre Dame that. uh oh gotcha was famously catfished and. like you know smart handsome young. athlete guy so it's not like just you.

know the lonely uh loser in the basement. that falls for stuff like that have you. heard about the Lonesome Loser yeah he. still keeps on. trying uh oh man Little River man so. good uh 2018 Monica witty um did one on. sort of catfishing but really just. romance scams is what they called it uh. and she said if you fall for something. like that you obviously will be a little. more impulsive and sensation seeking. right uh and so if someone's building up. about all these great stories and these. big travels and you know it's always.

it's never just like well I just kind of. sit around at home like they always. present themselves as offering some uh. new exciting life it seems like right uh. but she also found that they were more. Highly Educated than average uh and. Livia I think is on the money kind of. speculates that could be u i and I think. it's true when we did our thing on. online dating it's generally people that. are college educated that participate in. online dating a little more right. statistically but um also maybe that if.

you're more educated you just think like. I'm I'm not going to fall for catfishing. I know all about that and this is not. that right overconfidence right and then. you're on that hook and then another. thing about being online too the Better. Business Bureau back in. 205 I think they looked at a um uh I. guess a bunch of their like scam. complaints that came in just to see who. reported them and they found that uh. people between 25 and 35 were more. likely to lose money on a scam than.

older people which is totally contrary. to what people think of when they think. of people who get scammed and one of the. one of the explanations that they came. up with is in part um younger people are. just online more so they're just more. likely by the numbers to um have scams. presented to them which means that. they're more likely to probably go for a. scam than say people who are online less. right I I agree with that in the old. days I think that's changing cuz i' I've.

never seen a generation as phone. addicted as boomers are smartphone. addicted oh man you don't hang around a. lot of Boomers do you they have gen Z. beat every Boomer I know just. obsessively stares at their phone and. looks things up and. and yeah I thought they all had like um. flip phones that only dial numbers no no. no huh they want to show you all the. information in the moment. I gota yeah right in the middle of. dinner at a nice restaurant even I guess.

I I've not experienced that uh but I do. think that that generally is true okay. fair enough I just want to take a shot. at Boomers well then that makes that. makes it even less understandable that. 25 to 35 year olds would be more likely. to be scammed um I I don't know maybe. that generation is just more trusting. these days or something like that or I. actually I got to take that back because. as we'll see trusting being trusting is. not necessarily correlated with being.

Gable yeah which I think we'll get to in. a minute before or after the next break. but can we talk about science because. this is one thing when I sent Livia the. idea I was like I think i' read an. article about scientists being gullible. and I was like no not scientist but it. turns out they they very much can be. because um a lot of times when you are. that uh well uh versed in a field you. might you might kind of think you know.

it all and like oh no I know what I'm. doing and so you might be more apt to to. believe um a a result that isn't. accurate because you think you did it. the right way like that's just one. aspect of it yeah another aspect is like. you said people people in science. typically know a tremendous amount about. their field but they can make a mistake. and think that that understanding that. depth of understanding will just apply. to other fields as well that they just. don't know as much about yeah and that's.

another way they can um fall prey to it. but also scientists like to be right as. much as anybody else and you know I I. don't remember what episode we we did. this in I think it was about the um the. just a. reproducibility crisis in science papers. if I remember correctly but just how. like the scientists don't set up um. experiments to disprove their hypothesis. they set them up to prove their. hypothesis that's how you get published.

that's how you get celebrated like. nobody wants to hear about you failing. even though that's what science is meant. to be um that's that's a a part of it as. well just wanting to be right so if. somebody comes along it's like yep. you're right let's let's uh let's use. that to explain this other thing that's. actually not true the scientists might. go along with it because if it is true. then it will prove their their. hypothesis and make them very famous and. they'll probably end up having a HBO. movie made about them well that was.

probably scientific method. huh maybe maybe but I mean we definitely. talked about papers just being yeah some. of them just being outright fraudulent. because their experiments are set up. incorrectly it could have been. scientific method yeah or like the the. little student in Rushmore that picked. the. results how I don't remember that part. you know Max has his uh sort of little. budding girlfriend at the end mhm and. she he says something about she won some. science award and I think she had to.

give it back or something and she said. he's like why she said I faked the. results that's right it didn't work so I. faked it yeah I thought that was so her. line where she tells Bill Murray that. she won't dance with them it was a. little out of nowhere oh interesting. yeah I I get that a little harsh I think. is what I'm trying to say yeah who. doesn't want to dance with Bill. Murray I do uh you and Lucy Lou all. right wait Lucy Lou doesn't or does want. to dance with Bill Murray no I don't.

think she does they they were on. Charlie's Angels together and had some. words oh that's right I remember that. yeah so I doubt if she's dancing with. Bill okay uh all right should we take a. break wait I just before we go to a. break I was saying I would like to dance. with Bill Murray oh yeah okay just want. to make sure that no one walks away to. this ad break thinking that I don't want. to dance with Bill Murray yeah I was. being sort of a opposite with my Lucy L. joke gotcha okay this you know I'm not. firing on all cylinders I'm am my best I. am not either apparently all right we'll.

be right back and Josh will lead off. with a little bit on. [Music]. trust you. [Music].

okay we're back everybody and uh I. mentioned before that trust is not. necessarily correlated with gal ability. and I love that that just makes me feel. good about the world again you know you. you can trust people and and think the. best of people and still not be gullible. yeah and so we'll kind of explain why. but there have been study after study. after study that basically say yeah. that's actually true like you can have a. high level of trust be tested for that. that kind of thing and you're not more. likely to be Gable and in fact it seems.

that if you are a higher trusting person. you're actually less likely to be. gullible uh compared to say like the. cynic right like there's this researcher. named toshio. yamagishi um who's considered one of the. most prominent researchers in in. gullibility and Trust uh out of H H. kaido University I know how to say. Hokkaido I don't know why I had trouble. with that at first but one of the things. that um yamagishi did in the 1990s was.

to um tell people who scored high in in. trusting this and other people who. scored low um about the story of Bill. and Chuck I think you should take it. because Bill's got a great story yeah I. kind of understand this but not 100% but. I think I get it um so what he would say. is Bill your friend Bill stayed at a. hotel for a week uh he was only charged. one day uh do you think he would tell. the cashier about this even though. there's like no chance let's say there's. no chance of him getting caught later on.

do you think he would do that and people. who scored high on their trustworthy. score like people who were trustworthy. uh they were more likely to say that. bill would do the honest thing but uh. when he added in a Twist here which is. to tell them some negative things about. Bill like by the way uh just want to let. you know Bill also cut in line the other. day he also makes his stepson feel. stupid he also makes his stepson feel. stupid but if they if the added in a. couple of nuggets like that negative. things about Bill uh the people who had.

high trust in people generally um put a. lot more weight on that additional. information uh than the other people did. the people that were low and. trustworthiness right but the bottom. line was even with positive information. like bill um littered but he also cut in. line if you took all of the tallies you. would see that people who were low in. trusting others and people who are high. in trusting others they had about the. same scores. so the this this research from yamagishi.

and others shows that like you can trust. other people and it doesn't open you up. to being taken advantage of and that. just doesn't make any sense because just. the the idea of being gullible means. that you're trusting what somebody else. is saying that's the popular conception. of it but as we've seen really the idea. of gullibility is trusting what somebody. says because you either don't care. enough to go figure it out yourself. um because you don't feel like thinking.

for yourself because what they're saying. confirms your uh biased beliefs not that. you just trust people in general and the. explanation that I saw that really kind. of drives it home for me Chuck is that. people uh who have high trust are also. more Discerning at so they would have. probably a better social intelligence. than people who don't trust as much and. that makes sense because if you don't. trust people like the cynic you're. actually protecting yourself you're.

guarding yourself you know that that you. are probably not as Discerning as other. people and so rather than get yourself. into trouble time and time again you. just keep people at arms length you. don't really trust them whereas if you. are high trusting you are better at. Discerning and that either means that. because you're good at Discerning you. have the freedom to trust other people. because you can be confident in your. judgment of other people and you. probably not going to take be taken. advantage of or if you are just a.

trusting person by Nature you have to. have a higher discernment or else you're. going to be taken advantage of either. way high discernment and high trust go. hand in hand yeah and that that can be a. very freeing thing and that's how. yamagishi sort of thought about it when. he talked about uh his emancipation. Theory which is if if you're trusting. you're kind of or if you're untrusting I. guess you're kind of Shackled In a way. because you'll you may just be stuck in. a place because why um why hire a.

different person to do it cuz they're. just going to be a scammer too um and so. you can get stuck in this cycle um but. if you free yourself from that uh with. his emancipation Theory and you break. those shackles and you start trusting. people it makes you much more apt to to. make a positive change in life because. you trust somebody or some thing or some. situation yeah because at base you can. go through life not trusting other. people and you can make it all the way. way to old age and die at pretty much. the same the same age that you would.

have had you trusted people but you're. again you're missing out there's. opportunity costs to not trusting other. people that people who do trust other. people are are not missing out on and. you're just not connected as socially. and research after research after. research so shows that social. connections are like the number one. predictor of living to a healthy older. age so you're actually robbing Yourself. by just not trusting other people but. again it's kind of understandable if you.

were taught that your judgment is. questionable either through trauma. through a jerk stepdad or whatever it. it's understandable and I'm not I'm not. sure if that's something that you can. learn to break out of although I. sincerely hope it is yeah for sure um. there are people that think we are. actually not as gullible as everyone. thinks uh there's this writer Hugo uh. Mercier who wrote a book in 2020 called. not born yesterday mhm great title for a. book like that and he's like people are.

less gullible than we we think um and. there are a lot of like criteria people. use to to work out if they're uh if they. believe something or not and we're. better at it than than we all think we. are like um a lot most people or I guess. in his idea most people are actually. looking for well-informed um or. well-intentioned information M uh or if. it's a has logic to it if it's logically. strong um or you know maybe people are.

less um like this which is I'm just. going to accept something or or I'm. sorry I'm not going to accept something. as a new piece of information because. it's not something that I have found to. be true uh he argues that people are. less like that than they say yeah and. people also um judge uh other people to. be more likely to be duped than they are. more Gable than they are but yeah whole. message is like no we're actually as a. as a group as a species not all that.

gullible what appears to be. gullibility um is actually just somebody. not caring enough to argue a point or. they're accepting information but. they're hanging on to it Loosely um. Olivia I thought this is awesome um she. pointed out that um if you are shown. like a AI generated baby peacock that. looks super cute and has huge eyes and. is colorful and is nothing like what a. baby peacock really looks like if you're. not like a peacock researcher or your.

job doesn't depend on positively. identifying baby peacocks it doesn't. really matter if you think that that's. what they look like because you're. holding on to it Loosely enough that if. somebody comes along and it says that's. not what baby peacocks actually look. like you're not going to like that's not. the hill you're going to die on you're. going to be like oh that's crazy what AI. can do or oh it got me or or just be. like great I now know a baby PE. are look like and his that's his point.

is that's not gal ability that's just. not stopping to analyze you know whether. it's true or not because it just isn't. that important right then yeah exactly. he also points out in the book uh when. it comes to like propaganda that. propaganda isn't something that can. usually really completely change. someone's mind uh what propaganda is. good at is taking someone who already. has those beliefs and putting them on. turbo speed and reinforcing them uh even. like the Nazi propaganda machine um you.

know he contends probably wasn't making. someone anti-semitic uh but if you were. anti-semitic then it really drove you. down that road at a pretty fast pace. yeah because it came at your beliefs and. said yep go for it like that's what. that's the official line now is is. anti-Semitism yeah yeah and also. similarly political ads uh don't don't. really work that's what they say yeah. and that makes me wonder though if. that's just being suspicious of the. messenger because of polarization that.

you're not going to be like hm let's. hear what this uh opposing political. party has to say about Medicare I'm. really interested I'm going to keep an. open mind no it's like this message is. from the opposing party I'm just going. to laugh at it because it's just so full. of it yeah I mean I think political ads. are terrible and ridiculous and so. overvalued but I I feel like these days. it's less like it's more just being. eating that drum of like aren't you mad. aren't you mad go vote go vote I know.

man yeah the thing is though is this. none of this is to say that they're like. people don't get scammed there is a. there's a group called The Global. anti-cam Alliance which sounds like a. scam. itself they came up with a report done. they came up with a report that found. that worldwide people lose a trillion. dollars to scams every year man that's a. lot of money but some of these same. researchers are like hey there's. actually some short like easy stuff you.

can walk around in your head with um to. use to apply to new information to. protect from being gold which is. actually a word let's hear it do you. have a list yeah one of them is the. first step is to admit that you're as. susceptible to being scammed as anybody. else okay yeah just a reality check yeah. well it also puts the kibos on being. overconfident which again can increase. your chance of being duped yeah yeah. don't make emotional decisions like we. we talked about keep a lid on.

impulsivity mhm don't respond to like. act now supplies are running out kind of. like come on uh don't respond to false. scarcity like remember people hoarding. toilet paper yeah oh yeah those are. emotional decisions you want to just. stay cool and levelheaded another one is. ask questions ask for more information. don't be afraid to look dumb that's a a. big one yeah it's a big one and then. consider the source is there any. supporting information and when you put. all this together you are probably going.

to come up with a good decision or. understanding and if you're being Gold. by somebody that's a real word um you. are probably going to say I I don't. believe what you're saying uh you sir. are a cat and a scoundrel right please. get out of my face before I smack you. with my glove and we have to duel uh we. get I'm sure anyone um who works for big. companies get these and maybe even small. companies do this but when they send out. the the test like the test fishing.

emails mhm and then like the next day. you'll get an email it's like did you. fall for it right uh it's always I'm. always nervous I'm like oh God did I. click on that thing that you know from. you know. facebook. gold. Au. right it's usually there in the email. address you know well at least the next. day when they send out the email they. ask if you fell for it they don't show. like a list with pictures of all the. people who did fall for it they should. do that just pictures of. everyone um you got anything else I got.

nothing else I think you know we did. pretty good job on this one I agree and. that is no. fooling uh and if you want to know more. about goal ability go do some research. yourself on it that's kind of the point. of not being gold which is a real word. and since I said that it's time for. listener. mail uh this is a great current listener. mail from yesterday's um sorry. Thursday's rather episode yesterday to. us on automats right uh Hey guys uh two.

friends and I gave each other a. graduation present from high school in. 1970 and spent a week by ourselves in. New York uh where we went to the automat. and it was still great in 70 four years. later this get so good four years later. as a senior in college a group of us did. an independent study in humor and music. as an excuse to do a concert of Bach. stuff uh I got to be The Soloist in the. kerto for horn and heart art nice uh and. he sent a video unfortunately it was. just audio I mean it sounded like a hoot.

and really it was great but I I wanted. to see everything M cuz here's what they. did uh this piece is for orchestra and. also a table filled with various. household items to play ideally they. should have been picked out of an. automat on stage uh in order to play. them however this is beyond our set. construction abilities uh we did have. the recommended uh we did at least have. the recommended Banner overhead reading. in Latin less work for mother uh along. with trying to master the rather. challenging music uh it involved me. running around Gettysburg with a pitch.

pipe trying to find bills pots uh auga. horns and lots of other items that. played specific notes this is so great. uh thanks for speaking those Wonder uh. sparking those wonderful memories I. discovered you during Co and have been. an extremely faithful listener ever. since nice and that is from the Reverend. Dr Mark oldenberg St Miller professor. emiritus of of the art of worship and. the music chair at Gettysburg United.

Lutheran Cemetery pronounce heem wow. also the most interesting person we know. now totally Reverend Mark uh write in. more please the doctor Reverend Mark the. do Reverend Esquire the Reverend doctor. sorry either way yeah pretty impressive. thanks a lot Mark I'm just going to call. you mark for now cuz I feel like we're. on a first name basis that was a great. email great story and if you want to see. if if you can top uh Mark you can send. us an email too send it off to stuff.

podcast iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts iHeart. Radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].