The Disappearance of Dorothy Arnold | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's. here, too, and we've got our sleuth. [music] suits on, which are really. revealing, ultra-tight, rubber suits. [music]. Gross. And the reason we're wearing our. sleuth suits today is because this is a. unsolved mystery edition. >> Yeah. >> of Stuff You Should Know.

>> Yeah. We I feel like we haven't done one. of these in a in a little while, and. this is sort of the. one of the original missing persons. edition editions, because I think. this is the oldest missing persons case. in New York City. >> Yeah. From what I understand, it is, too, which suggests that it's still on. the books as an open investigation. >> Yeah. I mean, I guess that's the reveal. They haven't solved this one. >> No. Which, I mean, we kind of gave that. away when I said it was an unsolved.

edition. >> Yeah, okay. Yeah, good point. >> Or or are we just jerking everybody's. chain right now? You'll have to listen all the way. through to find out. >> That's right. This is the the sad story. of the mysterious disappearance of. Dorothy Arnold, who was a New York. socialite in the early 1900s who. disappeared in 1910, never to be seen. again. >> No. And one of the reasons why it's just. so um. it's still, you know, being talked.

about, literally right now, is because it is one of the most. baffling disappearance cases I've ever. heard of. >> Yeah. >> Like, there was there is not a single. shred of evidence that ever turned up. that suggested what happened to her. Nothing. Every tip that came in, every. suggestion, every idea, nothing ever. panned out. She just vanished without a. trace in the middle of. I think at the time the busiest city in. the world. >> Yeah. Uh.

should we get into it? >> Yeah. >> All right. Well, she was born uh Dorothy. Harriet Camille Arnold and she was a. a rich kid uh from a very well-heeled. family. She was a daughter of a perfume. importer named Francis Arnold and she. had a lineage that goes back to the. Mayflower. Her uncle was a Supreme Court. Justice uh Rufus W. Peckham. Uh and she studied literature in college. at uh how do you pronounce that? Bryn. Mawr College? >> Mhm. You nailed it. You've been brushing.

up on your Welsh. >> She fancied herself a writer and as. we'll see it's not something her parents. approved of. Uh but yeah, she was she was living with. with her family uptown, right? >> Yes, on East 79th Street. Um she lived. two blocks down from where Emily Post. would live a decade later. >> Fascinating. >> I thought it was kind of fascinating, too. It's almost like looking at a map. of New York and just seeing two phantoms. >> Wow. >> overlapping. >> Okay.

>> Anyway, uh yeah, she was uh she lived in. a a mansion on East 79th. I think it's. still there. Uh I think it's 108 East. East 79th Street and it is. pretty well-heeled and it was back then, too. Uh her family was well-to-do, like you. said, well-connected New York society, but she did she was a bit of a black. sheep of the family. Um she, like you. said, fancied herself a a writer and she. kind of wanted to go live a a bohemian. life in Greenwich Village. And I think in a a good early reveal of.

her personality and the house she grew. up in, she asked her father, "Can I get. an apartment in Greenwich Village?" and. he said, "No." In no uncertain terms, no. And then he added a little chide in. there, too. He's like, "You want to be a. writer? A writer should be able to write. anywhere.". And apparently her family he really mean. about this ambition of hers because they. wanted to knock it out of her so she. would go get married and have kids and. do what women were supposed to do back. then. >> Yeah, I mean she, you know, she even.

went so far as to submit stories. Um, she submitted a couple of them for. publication in McClure's Magazine. Uh, they rejected one. We don't know. about the other, but her family like. literally made fun of her for doing this. kind of thing. >> Yeah. >> Such that she. felt the need to keep it a secret uh, moving forward. So, she got a PO box so. she could, you know, kind of have these. secret correspondences when she. submitted to magazines. Uh, and that brings us to December, uh, December 12th specifically of 1910.

Uh, the day she disappeared when she. went uh, dress shopping. She was going. to go buy a dress for her sister's. debutante ball and initially told her. friend she was taking her mother Mary. with her. Uh, but then told her mom. like, "Hey, I want to shop by myself. I'll let you know if I find a dress and. you can check it out." Uh, and this is. when we should probably mention that. some people were saying that Mary wasn't. in great health. Um, and she may not. have been, but there were some. sort of confusing aspects to that as as.

we move forward. >> For sure. And I wonder if that's one of. those things where it got um, people. heard snippets over time and that got. worked into later recording, maybe. >> Yeah, or maybe it was blown out of. proportion, who knows. >> For sure. But at any rate, she went by. herself dress shopping and she had about. $30 in cash. >> which is close to a grand today. >> And that was a quarter of her monthly. allowance. She was all done up like a. society 25-year-old would be at the. time. Um, she looked like a Gibson girl.

She had a fox muffler, you know, for her. hands because this is December in New. York, of course, and supposedly it was a. beautiful day, but still quite cold. And. she ended up walking 50 blocks down to. 27th Street in the end, down Fifth. Avenue. Uh and she never stopped at a. dress shop. She stopped at two other. places, but as far as anyone's ever. known, she didn't pop into any dress. shop, even though that's supposedly what. she had left to go do that morning.

>> Yeah, and I also feel like that's one of. those things that's like she could have. very well popped into dress shops that. just and people had not known that she. did that. >> It's possible. >> Uh cuz you know, it's like an old case. so you have to sort of take some of. these things with a grain of salt. Um. she we do know that she didn't take like. her passport and she left her jewels at. home. So nothing was shady as in like. hey, she was about to go skip town or. anything like that or try and go. overseas because that would become you. know, some a theory at some point.

>> Mhm. >> Uh she bought chocolates and a book. uh at another shop and charged it to her. dad's account, which some people say may. mean she was uh might have been looking. to take a trip, but again, she also just. might have have wanted a book and some. chocolates. >> Sure. But but yeah, I've seen it pointed. out like if we if you fly in an airplane. today, you get a snack and a book and. that's like what you do when you're. going on a trip, right? >> I mean, I've never done it, but. >> You've seen people do it in movies, though.

>> Sure. It's a thing. But like I said, this is what I think people like read so. much into everything. Like she bought. chocolates, so she was going on a. steamership. >> Right. Sure. And she bought chocolates, by the way, at um. Philford and some bonbons. Isn't that the greatest name of a. business you've ever heard? >> It's pretty good. So she runs into a. friend uh. and says, "Hey, you know," they kind of. catch up a little bit. Um she does. mention one detail which she was looking. forward to like some Christmas gift that. was coming up. Uh another sort of clue.

that she wasn't like planning on. skipping town or something. And she told. the friend like uh I'm going to go. through Central Park on the way home and. that was the last person to ever see her. alive. >> Yeah. Um. that was in I think the afternoon. Did. you say about 2:00 p.m.? >> I did. >> So, by the time dinner came, her family. started to get worried cuz apparently. she did not miss a meal. um without alerting her family that she. wasn't going to be home for that meal.

So, that was very out of character for. her. And then as night fell, they. started to get worried enough that they. gambled scandal by calling her friends. and kind of surreptitiously asking if. anybody had seen her without saying we. haven't seen her out out right because. this is the time where like if if a a a. unmarried girl 25 from a wealthy family. was suddenly missing, that was. scandalous. So, her family had this on. their mind throughout this entire. disappearance.

>> Yeah, for sure. And there was a an. actual case a couple years before of a. young woman who disappeared again from a. well-heeled family. Uh it turns out that. she like ran away from home to be a. waitress and after a couple of days was. like waitressing stinks. She said nuts. to that. I want to go back to my life as. a socialite. Uh but the parents had like. put that out in the public eye and then. a lot of embarrassment was served up. So, this you know, they had reason to. kind of I guess try and keep this under. wraps initially at least.

>> One of the other explanations I saw. that's a little more heartening is that. if this got out and it did turn into a. scandal, if say Dorothy was just off. doing whatever, she might become so. mortified at all of the the negative. attention that she might not want to. come back to her old life because she. would have to face such crazy social. repercussions that she just might stay. away. So, there were a few reasons to to. kind of be cagey about it. And one of. the first cagey things they did was.

after calling her friends and none of. them had seen her, one of her friends. called back just to check on her around. midnight and her mom told the friend, "Oh, she's she got back home. She's. fine. She She has a headache and went. straight to bed." And just completely. lied. That's just not the case. Um but that was That was something that. I think a lot of people in retrospect, too, are like, "Did that family know. something?" For my two cents, the family. did not know anything uh and they were. as in the in the um.

dark as anybody else about what happened. to her. >> So, they decided to get someone on the. case. Uh not the police yet, but they. called a an attorney, a friend of theirs. named John Keith, and said, "Hey, this is what's going on. Like, what can you do to help us?" I. guess he had, you know, I guess he. seemed like a person that they thought. could help at the time. >> Mhm. >> Uh. he. came over, started doing a little, I. guess, lawyer-like investigation, and. found some letters in her room,

uh saw that some papers had been burned. in the fireplace that the family all. thought was like, "Hey, this is that. story that got rejected for McClure's. uh that she is getting rid of." Uh. again, a bit of a leap. Um but he helped. them out, you know, like, "Let's call. the morgue. Let's call the hospitals. Let's call some jails.". Uh and eventually, he was like, "Listen, get a Pinkerton detective on this thing. um because they can be quite discreet as. well.". Um and so they did that and then started. reaching out to I think through the. Pinkerton guy to other cities nearby.

Like, basically anyone that she had ever. known uh that lived in another town, they were trying to get in touch with to. see if they knew anything at all. >> Yeah. And to a person, they were like, "I haven't seen her, you know." Um. and then finally, 10 days after she went. missing, they went to the cops. They. went straight to the Deputy Police. Commissioner, William J. Flynn. And Flynn, knowing that he was dealing. with a really affluent, influential New. York family, uh he did his best and he. was successful at keeping this under.

wraps. Again, to avoid scandal. yet he. issued what um is called a silent alarm, which is basically like you're letting. the cops know, but also do not tell the. the press about this kind of thing. So, the cops started looking for from. December 22nd on, and um. I think for a full month Flynn and the. cops kept it under wraps, uh and kept it. out of the public that Dorothy was. missing. And I didn't see anywhere like. how did they explain her absence to like.

friends? Or like I think Marjorie's. debutante ball was like 5 days after she. was missing. I'm sure they they kept. that, you know, they had no reason. publicly to to postpone that. So, how. did they explain Dorothy's absence? I. was just curious about that. I couldn't. find it anywhere. >> Yeah, uh. who knows? Um that 10 days is certainly. uh. probably a dumb thing to do if you're. trying to find your daughter. >> For sure. >> successfully. Uh but yeah, that's what they did. They. waited 10 days for the cops, and then uh.

even longer to eventually go public. On. January 25th, the cops were like, "Hey, listen, you got to get the public's help. here." Uh and they held a press. conference. Uh they let everyone know what happened, offered a $1,000 reward, and all of a. sudden the New York Times has picked up. this story um under the heading uh. "Niece of Peckham Strangely Missing,". which was the Supreme Court Justice. So, you know, initially tying her to. uh. you know, a Supreme Court Justice. obviously just uh.

a grabby headline, I think, probably. >> Sure. Yeah, I I guess he was well known. enough that you could even say him by. his call him by his last name. >> Yeah. >> The Peckster, I think, is what most. people called him. >> Should we take a break? >> Uh yeah, sure. >> All right, we'll take a break. Uh it's. out in the news and in the public, and. we'll come back right after this. >> [music]. [music].

>> We [singing and music] learned so much. stuff from Josh and Chuck. Stuff you [singing and music] should. know. >> Okay Chuck, so we're back and Dorothy's. missing. This is pretty early in the. investigation. January 25th is where we. reached. Um and initially the police. were reported to basically think that. Dorothy just ran off. That she went off. to get married. Uh one of the clues that. actually panned out to nothing um was a.

uh a like a sheaf of brochures for ocean. liners which suggested strongly that she. had she had planned or intended to like. run off and probably run off with a. beau. That's why most people ran off at. the time. And um. the family was like, "We don't believe. that at all. We just absolutely don't. think that." So there was this constant. disagreement with the cops publicly. saying, "We think she's alive and just. ran off." and the family saying, "She. just would not do that to us. We think.

she's dead, actually.". >> Yeah, and you know, the rumor mill's. going to spread, the tabloids are going. to pick it up. So of course they were. suggesting everything from eloping uh to. dying by suicide uh to being like the. family knows that there was a crime like. that she was murdered or kidnapped or. something and they're just trying to. keep it quiet cuz they're you know, a. rich and powerful family. Uh and obviously false reportings of. sightings come in, uh fake ransom letters start coming in.

And this is all the reason why the. family didn't want this to go public cuz. that's the kind of thing that comes. along with it. >> For sure. >> Uh but finally, uh the last week of. January. um. reporters basically were hearing from. people involved in the case that uh it. was going to be solved and that she was. seen in in city recently. So that's this. happened a couple of times where they. were like a report came out that like, yeah, we we basically know where she is, she's coming home, and it never amounted. to anything.

>> No. No, for sure. And you very. interestingly, if you read some of the. headlines covering Savannah Guthrie's. mother's disappearance, there's a lot of like, someone spotted. her, they think she's coming home. Like, that that's it seems to be pretty. standard that the press will just. print whatever somebody says, you know? >> Yeah. >> So, the the investigation not just for her. whereabouts, but into her background. looking for any kind of clue, like those. ocean liner brochures, to figure out.

where she went, what happened to her. It turned up just zip, right? Like, no. friend came forward and said, "Hey, she. actually had a secret life. She was. seeing this guy no one knows about.". Or bank accounts that her family didn't. know about, none of those turned up. She. was like a She seems to have been the. person that she appeared to be on the. surface. She wasn't hiding a secret life. or anything like that. She was very. loyal to her family. She listened to. what her father told her to do. And.

like, she wasn't troubled. She she. didn't have a lot of stuff on her mind. The the worst thing that had happened to. her, and it does seem to have been. significant, was being rejected by. McLoor's. >> Yeah. >> And I think also her family making fun. of her probably weighed on her more than. than she let on. But nothing was coming. up. And and it's not like those ocean. liners, like her family's like, no, she. didn't run off, and that's where that. lead went. They got in touch with every. ocean liner going to Europe at the time. to see if anyone on board matched her.

description or was in their register. under her name. And again, nada. Nothing. turned up. So, every lead that they had. just completely went nowhere. >> Yeah, and you know, poor Francis, the. father, is. like, he's telling reporters out loud. that he he thinks that she's dead. Um. the police, you know, or at least the. police and the public were like there's. no body, so she's probably still out. there somewhere, but the family was. like, "No, she probably was just.

disposed of in a way where they haven't. found this body.". Uh in February, I think February 7th, the Times reported that um police in New. York and Philly weren't even working on. the case anymore. Um and that, you know, basically like, "Hey, the family knows where she is. Again, she's about to return any day. now.". Uh and in that story from the Times, uh. it was I think that uh they said the. previous day. that Francis, the father, had gotten a.

supposedly at least gotten a postcard. that said, "I am safe" in her. handwriting. Uh but the family basically. was like, "No, this is a joke. Somebody. saw her handwriting and uh letter that. they had published in the newspaper, and. it again is just somebody messing around. with us.". >> Yeah, which is pretty cruel. >> Of course. >> also being the kind of person who's. like, "Here's a. an heiress disappearing and thinking, well, now's my chance. I'm going to send. a fake ransom letter and hope for the. best.".

>> Yeah. >> If you're sending fake ransom letters to. people who have whose loved one has. disappeared, you should stop and. reevaluate your life, I think, is a good. rule of thumb. >> [laughter]. >> Hey, we usually don't like to tell. people what to do, but. >> Oh yeah, I don't mean to get preachy. >> I can get behind that. >> Okay. So, what something that you had said was. that it's kind of up in the air whether. um. her mother, Mary's, health was um. delicate, I guess. >> Yeah. >> And her father um told the press like, "Do her mom's off-limits. She's at a.

rest home in New Jersey. Um she's she's. about to have a nervous breakdown. Just. leave her alone." And the press left her. alone. They didn't search for her. But she turned up anyway, not in New. Jersey. She turned up in Italy. Uh and the reason she was in Italy, as. we'll see, is because she and her son. John went looking for a man named George. S. Griscom, Jr. aka Junior. because the family already knew, but it.

turned out that as a big reveal to the. public, she had a secret romance with. this guy who was 15 years older than. her. >> Yeah, this kind of came about because. there was a reporter early on um. interviewing [clears throat] the father. and said like, "Hey, did you know, did. she run off because you don't let her. date?" Uh because that's a thing. And the dad said. "I would have been glad to see her. associate with more young men than she. did, especially some young men of brains. and position, one whose profession or. business would keep them occupied. I.

don't approve of young men who have. nothing to do.". And the reporter was like "Well, that's. a really weirdly specific thing to say.". >> Right. >> Uh and so uh. the reporters tracked down this. information about Junior who uh how old. was she? 25? So this made him 40 years. old. Uh he went to Harvard, which is like, that's great. From a wealthy family, that's great. But he was 40 years old. and unemployed and living with his. parents still. Had been engaged to another heiress that.

uh broke uh she had broken off the. engagement the night before the wedding, never a good sign. Um he had proposed to. Dorothy already, but Francis dad was. like, "No, you're not marrying my. daughter.". >> Sure. >> And so all of a sudden there's this. secret romance exposed where they learn. that she had a a little illicit fling. with him in Cambridge. She was like, "I'm going to go visit a college friend. down there." Uh but what really happened. was she went down there to have a little. fling with Junior. And like it looks.

like pawned some jewelry in order to. finance this thing. >> Yeah, $500 in 1910 money for $60. and um. a lot of people are like, "Good. There. you go. She ran off to Boston with the. guy." There's another There's more. nuance to it that I think also shows. Dorothy's personality. Number one, they. didn't stay at the same hotel. She. registered at the Lennox while George. stayed at the Essex. So, even like. during this rendezvous, she still was. um she still had propriety, I guess.

And then second, um she registered at. the Lennox under her name. No alias. At. the time you would put your address. down, she put her actual address in New. York. So, like she she wasn't She didn't. show any signs of being this person who. could like keep a secret life or. something like that. The one time she. had the chance to. um like perform in secret, she didn't. She just was herself. >> Yeah, see I read that more as not uh. she's trying to be proper, but.

uh that she wanted to have two different. hotels to cover her tracks. >> But, why would she register in her real. name then? >> Because she went down there to see a. friend. >> Okay. >> Like that There was nothing secret about. that. She has her story. Like, "Yeah, I. went and stayed at the Lennox and saw my. friend. And no one at that hotel will. say you saw me with some dude. because that happened at the other. hotel.". >> Okay. All right, fair enough. >> Under his name. That That's at least the. way I read it. >> Okay. I Yeah, that's fine. That's fine, Chuck.

We can all have different opinions. >> [laughter]. >> I appreciate that. >> So, uh let's see. We have established. that Junior was a planetesimal. He never. formed a a full planet. Um and the. reason that he was in Italy was cuz he. was on vacation with his parents, his. elderly parents. I think they were. probably in their 60s at the time, which. was super old in 1910. And George Griscom, when he turned up, when he became like a a a I guess a. person, a part of this whole um.

disappearance, >> Mhm. >> Uh. he started like he kind of added a whole. new dynamic. The family did not like him. at all. And in fact, when um Mary and. John confronted him in Italy, John beat. him up. Uh he knocked him down. He. reached into his coat pocket and took. some letters for that Dorothy had mailed. to him. Um like they didn't like George. Griscom at all. But, if you read some of. the stuff that George Griscom did, he.

really seems to have been genuinely. concerned that Dorothy was missing. Uh. so much so that he came home early to. kind of try to help aid in the search. for her, despite her family saying, "We. don't want your help. Stay away.". >> Yeah, for sure. Uh jumping back though. on the Monday after Thanksgiving, uh. they learned that she had gone to the. post office, that PO box that she had. set up in secret, >> Mhm. >> and gotten a bunch of letters that were. apparently had come from overseas. And.

everyone basically presumes that they. were from Griscom while he was over. there in Europe. >> Sure. >> And there was a letter that he shared. publicly later on where she wrote to him. uh talking about, you know, how much it. hurt her to have that story rejected. And she said, "Failure stares me in the. face. All I see ahead is a long road. with no turning." And then this weird. line, she said, "Mother will always. think an accident has happened.". >> Yeah, and I didn't see anywhere that. Griscom tried to explain that when he.

revealed that letter to the to the. press. >> Yeah, I don't I don't know what that. means. >> I don't think anybody knows what she. meant specifically. >> Yeah. >> It's weird. And it is very um chilling. It definitely supports the suicide. theory, for sure. >> Yeah. >> So, should we take our second break and. come back and talk a little more about. stuff they turned up on Dorothy? >> Yeah, [music] let's do it. >> [music].

>> We [singing and music] learned so much. stuff from Josh and Chuck. Stuff you [music and singing] should. know. >> All right, so. when we left you, I think Briscom had. just come back from Italy. Uh this is. February 9th. Uh he comes back and the. reporters obviously are all over him. And he was like, "Hey, listen, I'm I'm. here to help find her. Uh like, you. know, I loved her. Like I want want to. find her.".

And he. changes story a bit here and there. though, which is a little fishy. Sometimes his story was that they were. engaged. Uh sometimes his story was that. they were just really good friends. Um he said at one point that he said, "Hey, there's one at least one family. member that knows where she is and she's. going to be back soon and we're going to. get married when she gets back." So, another time where someone publicly said. like, "Yeah, she's she's we know she's. coming back.". >> Yeah, and one of the other things so.

like I said, he added some new like. component to the whole thing. He was a. foil to the family in a lot of ways. because when John beat him up and took. those letters in Italy, uh the police. were like, "Hey, can we see those. letters and see if there's any clues in. them?" And John said, "They're they've. already been destroyed. There's nothing. of consequence in there." But her family. was also very much convinced that she. was dead. So, it suggests that there was. something in the letters that satisfied. the family of her fate, but Briscom had. the same letters too. He knew of that.

same content and he wasn't satisfied. that she was dead. So, he's like him. being there like I think really. helps make this case the way it is that. it's just so baffling because he he he. he acts as an answer and antidote to a. lot of the assumptions you can make when. just looking at the family's actions. Yeah, for sure. Uh and you know, the. press is asking him about these letters. They were like, "Hey, what about this. one letter. that she wrote uh that where she said.

she was going to quote made do something. that may be cowardly.". And he didn't even answer them and said. like, "I promised her I wouldn't talk. about this kind of thing. uh when she wrote me this stuff." Uh he. said, "I had a long talk with her mom in. Europe. I agreed to do certain things to. help you guys." He dodged questions. about John beating him up. Uh. and then started running like his own. personal ads in the paper like trying to. find her. >> Yeah, so this is at least the third. parallel investigation into her.

disappearance that Grissom has now. undertaken. Although, I get the. impression that his was a little. slapdash compared to the others. >> Yeah, less investigation maybe more just. public show. I don't know. >> I don't know. I I don't know. I hadn't. gotten a good read on him. I I did. believe he was genuine genuinely. concerned. But yes, he seemed to have. been not not roundly liked by everybody. >> I mean, he had no job. What else has he. got to do? >> Exac- exactly. [laughter]. So, this was there was a worldwide. search for her. I saw that every every.

city and town of consequence uh their. police station got um you know, an alert. of be on the lookout with photos and. descriptions and all that stuff. Um it. was reported around the world. I found a. paper in Tasmania that um had a long. story describing the disappearance the. following July. Like like it was. everywhere for for a few years as a. matter of fact. But as with everything, um interest waned. Interest in new stuff.

kind of came along. Um but yet, there's. still plenty of reporting that pops up. over the years. Um if you go on to. newspapers.com, shout out newspapers.com. for contemporaneous. um articles. >> Yeah. >> Uh. like you can find them throughout the. the decades. Just basically like what. happened? And and most of the time it. doesn't add anything new, but it's just. such a baffling case that somebody could. say, oh, I haven't read about or I. haven't written about Dorothy Arnold in. a while. I'll do that for my column this.

week. >> Yeah. So, here are some of those stories right. now. Uh 4 years later in 1914, uh there was a story where police raided. a hospital in Pittsburgh uh in a suburb. of Pittsburgh that, you know, the. abortion was illegal and so they it was. one of those hospitals that offered kind. of, you know, secret abortions. >> Mhm. >> They were there to arrest people. They. arrested two doctors and a nurse. And. one of the doctors uh implied that. Dorothy had died there. Uh basically went in to get a got.

pregnant from uh Grissom is the. assumption. >> Mhm. >> Went there to get an abortion, died. there during the process, and was. cremated in the cellar. And some people noted that like Grissom. could have uh traveled there. Uh it. wasn't too far away. Um and it could, you know, people die during those. procedures, but nothing ever came from. that. >> No, but that is really random for one of. the doctors to to pipe up and say that. And it is clear that that some women did. die during procedures and were cremated.

in the in the basement. I mean, that's a. pretty that's a pretty likely. possibility, right? >> Yeah, that could have been what. happened. >> Yeah. Her family, of course, is like, nope, that absolutely didn't happen. So. did George Grissom. Um and years after that, there was a. prisoner in Rhode Island State Prison. who said that um years back he had been. paid $250 to help dispose of the body of. a woman. And he said that woman was 100%. Dorothy Arnold. >> Yeah. >> And as a matter of fact, you can find.

her in the cellar of this. um. this house in West Point, New York. And. the cops went and dug up the cellar of. that house in West Point, New York. And. not only didn't find her, they found. nothing. So, the guy was just bored, I. guess. Um so, that went absolutely nowhere. >> Yeah, this one is really, really weird. to me. Uh in 1921. uh during like a public uh. interview, I guess, the head of New York. Police Department's Bureau of Missing. Persons was a guy named uh Captain J. H.

Ayers. He said the police department knew what. happened to her a few months earlier. They They They figured it out, basically, and solved it. And that they. probably should not have mentioned the. case as it was strictly confidential in. the department. Uh he wouldn't say. whether she was alive or dead, but she. was no longer a missing person. And the. next day he was like, "Yeah, yeah, you. know what? I was misquoted or I misspoke. or whatever.". And like, I guess nothing ever came from. that, either, which is just nuts. >> It is. Like, that one's very weird. Um.

but, again, nothing did come of it. Like. you said, like. even after all these years, it just. seems to have died right there. Um and so, those over the years, like. you said, um basically amount to uh. murder, kidnapping, which eventually led to. murder. And the murder theory um. how was that she it probably if she was. murdered, it would have happened during. uh in Central Park in some lonely. stretch where she was You remember she. said she was about to walk home through.

Central Park. Um. and they actually did have the reservoir. dragged. And no surprise, absolutely no. evidence turned up from that. >> Just a few other bodies. >> I'm sure. I'm sure. Um. but, one of the things that I thought. was pretty interesting, one of the. theories, is that she had amnesia. >> Yeah, I mean, there certainly have been. cases where someone bonks their head and. forgets who they are and and starts a. new life. Like, that has happened. Uh but again, you know, no evidence of. this. This is people just kind of. throwing spaghetti at the wall at this.

point, I think. >> Sure. >> Um what about the woman in Kansas City, though? Cuz they found a. almost dead ringer for which was very. strange. >> It's nuts, isn't it? >> Yeah. >> I turned this up I think in a 1935. article from San Antonio, but there's a. woman named Mrs. Anna Miller um who was. located in Kansas City. Enough enough. reports of Dorothy Arnold sightings were. coming out of Kansas City in the 30s. that the um New New York Police. Department actually traveled there to.

figure out what the heck was going on. and they found Anna Miller who was. uh said to be the wife of a movie. projector operator. um and she yes, she was a dead ringer. for Dorothy Arnold. the same height, weight, same age, same facial. characteristics. She had the same. birthmark which is really strange. because it's a mole on her right leg 3. in above the knee. That's quite a. coincidence. And the the coincidence has. kept building up. She told. investigators, I actually used to live.

in New York and they said when? She. said, well, I moved on December 12th, 1910 which is the day Dorothy Arnold. went missing. She also had a Fifth. Avenue fur and a Fifth Avenue muffler. which is kind of surprising for the wife. of a movie projector operator in Kansas. City, but somehow some way the police. were satisfied that she was not actually. Dorothy Arnold. >> Yeah, and this is one of those. frustrating things where it's so long. ago. there's no way to to find any of these.

people or talk to them because that that. the amnesia theory actually could fit. with that. >> Yeah. >> Uh that she bonked her head on the way. home, slipped or something and. woke up, didn't know who she was. Wandered off to Kansas [laughter] City. >> Sure, as you do. >> Uh with her stuff cuz I don't know. Birthmarks, that's pretty specific. >> It is. The thing is is they searched. hospitals, they searched um the morgue. One of the reasons why it's not probable.

that she was misidentified or identified. as a Jane Doe, um is because not only. did they search the morgue, people who. knew what she looked like, a a. a coroner's trained to spot, you know, like, "This person seems like a. well-to-do person. It's weird that they. were found. naked and dead. I'm going to look. [clears throat] a little further into. that." Um and they checked all the. hospitals and there weren't any reports. of any woman around that time showing up. with amnesia. So, um I don't know. The. Anna Miller thing is quite weird. I.

>> agree with you. I mean, I'm going to go ahead and say. it. I I bet you that was probably her. >> Isn't that That's so amazing though if. that's And if And like she convinced. them, "I'm not Dorothy Arnold." If she. actually did have amnesia and did not. believe she was Dorothy Arnold, that's. just even more amazing. >> Yeah. I mean, if that is the case, I. guess the bright side is. uh she lived a life in Kansas City. that was hopefully satisfying to her, uh. being married to a a projectionist. >> Yeah, for sure. And she she got to keep.

her fur and her muffler, too, which is. nice. >> Well, John Keith, the attorney, uh. basically believes that she took her own. life uh because she was upset about um. you know, not being able to live her. life as a as a bohemian writer in the. Greenwich Village. >> Mhm. >> Uh but then everyone else, all of her. friends were like, "No, man, she did. like she's was always in pretty good. spirits. Like there was no indication of. anything like that going on.". Um there's a historian named Sylvia. Petem who has written about the case a.

lot and she was leaning toward the. um. botched uh abortion procedure where she. was died and cremated initially. Uh but I think later on she just thinks. like, "No, she I think she disappeared. herself. uh because she wanted to get out of that. like out from under the thumb of that. family.". >> Yeah. And I mean, if she wanted to go. live the bohemian life of a artist or. writer, she might not have needed that. much money to get started, you know?

>> Yeah, Kansas City, it's a good place to. do it. >> Right. One thing I saw that kind of. contradicts that, you know, the idea. that she was in good spirits, so it. couldn't have been suicide, is that um. in a lot of cases, I don't know if it's. typical, people who have decided to die. by suicide, the day before they do it or. the day of, they're actually in good. spirits. >> Yeah, that's true. >> they've resolved, and now there's some. sort of hope of getting out of of the. situation that they're in. >> Yeah, yeah, that's true. Uh as far as.

her family's concerned, her dad. uh spent about a dozen years and about a. million bucks in 1920s dollars um trying. to find her. Uh Mary Arnold died 6 years. after she disappeared. And when she. died, The New York Times identified her. as Dorothy Arnold's mother, so she was. kind of forever tagged with that. >> Yeah. >> And, you know, just like with all these. cases over the years, there have been. like fake letters of people claiming to. be her or perhaps sightings of her.

Uh. I think as late as even 1935, 25 years. later, um police said like people are still. calling in tips about this case. >> For sure. It gets even weirder. Um Dorothy's. younger sister, remember the debutante. Marjorie, she had a daughter named. Rebecca, and Rebecca became the heir to. Dorothy's papers and letters. And Rebecca destroyed them. >> Yeah. >> I'm suspecting that she burned them. And. so that even like the the the.

descendants today of the Arnold family. have no idea what what happened. >> Yeah. >> So if there was any evidence in those. letters, like Rebecca knew and she took. it to her grave, it's also just as. likely that the letters are maybe a. little embarrassing or, you know, >> Sure. >> they contained stuff that she didn't. want her aunt to be remembered by or. whatever. It's not necessarily that she. was covering up something, you know, scandalous. >> Yeah, or or could it just been like she.

wants to. people to stop asking her and the easy. way to do that is to have nothing to. offer, you know. >> She went, "Watch this." and just started. tearing them up. >> Yeah, sad uh will clearly never be. solved at this point, you know. >> I don't see how it could be. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah. Well, RIP I mean certainly by. this point Darth Dorothy Arnold, maybe. Anna Miller. Um and uh we hope that whatever the. outcome was, it was either quick and. painless or long and fulfilling. How.

about that? >> That's right. And a less lazy podcaster. would be intrigued enough to do some. more research on this uh Kansas City. woman. >> Yes. >> But that's not me. >> No, same. No, we're we've got to move on. to the next, right? >> That's right. >> Uh well, if you want to go do some. research on Anna Miller or Dorothy. Arnold or anything like that, there's. plenty out there on the internet just. waiting for you. And uh in the meantime, we're going to go ahead and do listener. mail.

>> Uh a kind of a funny correction. Hey. guys, love the show and I love it when. my useless knowledge can help one of my. favorite podcast. Uh on the social identity theory show, you guys referenced the classic [music]. movie Can't Buy Me Love. >> Okay. >> However, when Josh referenced the quote, I'm pretty sure that quote and situation. was from another Patrick Dempsey movie, the classic Loverboy. >> Yeah, absolutely was. >> Yeah, I don't remember you saying that. cuz I have not seen Loverboy. So, I. would not have known. That's probably. why I didn't say anything.

>> Yeah, no, I didn't say it was Loverboy. I was I was mistaken, I guess. I I. weird, it feels weird. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Uh Can't Buy Me Love is the example of. social identity theory of the lawnmower. boy pays for popularity with the. cheerleader and the jocks. uh who could be a night of cards, chips, dips, [music] and dorks. It's quote from. the movie. Loverboy is the story of the poor. college boy getting extra cash for pizza. delivery extras. I remember that movie, but that didn't. see it. Did you see it? >> Yeah, oh yeah. I. guess I had a Patrick Dempsey thing when.

I was like 12. >> Yeah, you were early on the McDreamy. train. >> Yeah, well he those were cute little. movies for sure. I I don't know how they. hold up, but I'm guessing they're. probably still pretty good. >> Yeah, I Can't Buy Me Love is one of. those fun ones that I want to show Ruby. at some point until I remember that it. was made in the 80s and so there's just. nudity for no reason. >> Oh, okay. All right. >> Not that you know, we're [music] not. nude shaming in our house at all, but. we're still not like showing her movies.

with nude scenes yet. >> like elbowing her in the ribs like check. that out. >> No, no, no. >> So what are you waiting for? Like maybe. 18 for Can't Buy Me Love? >> I don't know. We'll we'll see. I'll let. everyone know. >> How about this? I'll go back and watch. it just for fun and I'll let you know if. there's any random nudity in it cuz I. don't remember that. And remember I was. like 12 at the time so I definitely. would have remembered that. >> Oh no, there was. I remember the exact. scene. >> Really? >> Yeah, it's a it's a a very has a very. dumb dumb line that Emily and I.

privately laugh at [music] still. >> Oh yeah. >> That I'll tell you about off mic. >> Okay, I [laughter] can't wait to hear. Wow, I'm I'm I'm surprised that my. 12-year-old self. >> All right, that's thanks guys. Keep up. the great work from Alex Thompson. >> Thanks a lot Alex, that was a great. email. Appreciate it big time and if you. want to be like Alex and email us so. that we can appreciate you big time, send it off to. stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of.

iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from. iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, [music] or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows. >> Oh.