The Criminal Father of Criminology | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too and this is stuff you should know a. little overlooked historical figure. Edition gu Yeah Boy God this guy could. you could do a a tin parter on his life.

easily I mean it's it's nuts so we're. talking about a man named Eugene franois. vok um he is known as the father of. criminology yeah pretty much on the nose. it's a really good title for him yeah. for good reason he's also an inspiration. for plenty of um detective first early. detective stories o he was at one time. as famous as Napoleon in France and in. Europe in general he was incred in.

famous incredibly wealthy and it was. because he dedicated himself as a public. servant to the City of Paris um to. basically wipe out crime as best he. could at a time when Paris was more. overrun with crime than maybe ever has. been in its history yeah it was uh it. was a time where the uh the Army was. very busy I guess is the the best way to. say it and like the Army took up a lot. of the men who might normally be cops.

and they were preoccupied more with. Waring than with just taking care of. regular police work and uh vok stepped. up in a big way and like I said like I. had to stop researching because I was. like we can't do a 12-h hour podcast on. this guy can we no but you can. definitely go down a rabbit hole with. him and one of the reasons why is. because depending on the source you you. consult he was either a total scumbag. scoundrel or genuinely unjustly.

slandered I lean toward the second one. or closer to the second one obviously no. one's perfect but I do think that uh the. stuff that is really questionable or or. makes him into a questionable person or. character I think is remnants of his. political Rivals smearing his name so. well that it still is around. today here's what I think is that he was. and you as you'll see started off as a.

scoundrel and a criminal uh later uh. changed his tune because I think it was. beneficial for him to not be in prison. all the time and I think he tried to do. the right thing but also like a little. bit of that that that uh scoundrel lived. within him but he also had people that. had it out for him I think he's a. complex guy I don't think he did a 180. and was like and now I am pure uh I. think he I think he you know did what.

was best for him usually but also wanted. to put criminals Behind Bars and make a. few bucks while he did it so I I I have. a a Counterpoint to that but we'll I'll. bring it up when we get to that part but. we should tell everybody one of the. reasons vidok is famous if you have. heard of him is because not only was he. the father of criminology he started out. as a genuine bonafied Criminal Who was. serving time in prison would escape. prison and then one day he basically.

switch sides from an Outsiders. standpoint um and became like the the. top cop in all of France while he was. serving yeah a good way to stay out of. jail for sure let's start let's start. with his early life right because he was. unquestionably a troublemaker a hotthead. and um just a handful you could. definitely say his parents actually let. him get arrested when they stole from. him once yeah I mean you would classify.

him as a juvenile delinquent uh today. but it wasn't because he was uh some you. know poor kid from the the poor streets. who had to steal to survive his parents. did pretty well they had a successful. Bakery uh in uh how do you pronounce. that Aras I think so yeah a r r as and. it seemed rather middle class but like. you said he he stole from his parents he. was he was a scoundrel he he. pickpocketed he was from very early on.

seemed like he was a bit of a ladies man. and he would uh you know this was sort. of his early life until he ran away. literally to join the circus right uh. like people actually did that uh and he. did that for a few months until he. didn't like the work uh then he would. eventually work for a Punch and Judy. Street show which is if you guys are. don't know who Punch and Judy were they. were they were puppets right yes they. were um punch was a wife battering.

puppet and Judy was the abused wife they. got into hysterical right yeah really. violent fights all the time but it was. puppets and kids thought it was. hilarious and he worked for that show. and he had to um I guess he got fired in. a way I think so I think as a. 15-year-old he's had some kind of a a. trist with the wife of uh of the guy who. was running the thing yes so not not. very specific it says that they were. embracing so who knows what that means. yeah but definitely goes to underscore a.

lot of things about him he was very much. into the ladies he didn't mind if it was. someone else's lady if you were someone. else's lady and um he was willing to put. himself in great danger uh and at Great. personal risk to satisfy his own wants. needs desires that's a very nice way to. say it so he moved back home he went. back to AAS or us um and his I don't. know if we said his dad was a baker um. and his parents parents were just.

totally normal fine parents but again. they they basically when he was caught. stealing from them when he was 13 they. said okay you're going to jail when he. moved back home after the circus and the. Punch and Judy show um he wasn't even 16. yet and um they said all right you're. going to join the Army whether you like. it or not they shipped him off to the. Army while he was 15 that's how bad a. kid he was yeah I think he was drinking. getting fights and womanizing and you. know he's just one of those kids they. probably just say today that he was uh I.

don't know what would you call it a. hotthead yeah teenage hotthead yeah he. like to steal things sometimes right and. embrace other people's wives exactly so. uh he did serve in the Army apparently. he was in battle a few times because. this was uh post um post French. Revolution and I think he may have been. in the Army when Napoleon first took. power at the very least France was on. all sorts of Adventures like you said it.

had drained them their population of. potential police um police people. policemen um and so he fought in a few. battles he definitely saw some action. and he was fine but I think probably the. biggest takeaway was that he learned how. to fence he became a very great fencer. and that served him well because he was. also known to get into duels with people. and he actually had to Desert the Army. because he was coming up on charges. because he challenged a a sergeant to a.

duel the sergeant refused him and he. smacked the sergeant around and that is. not something you do in any army at any. period of time and so he took off and. was now a deserty from the Army and this. is when his actual like criminal life. really began everything else is petty. intemperate that kind of thing this is. like okay I'm a deserter from the Army I. need to support myself somehow I guess I. have to turn to a life of crime yeah he. actually deserted a few times so I don't.

think he was super popular among his. peers there sure uh he had a habit for. just sort of not being there all of a. sudden when they called roll call MH uh. but eventually when he finally left for. good he joined up with uh what was. called the rolling Army uh you want to. do the French there you're a french guy. uh it was the arm rant okay the arm rant. which was everything I saw about this. was that it was a a side Army I think it. was a couple of thousand men MH and that. they uh they sort of just did what they.

wanted they wore fake uniforms they. plundered the countryside they gave. themselves fake orders uh and I'm not. exactly sure what real army work they. did I'm sure they did right I don't. think so I think or was it all just a. thing to like and pillage yes that's. what that's my take I don't think they. were officially sanctioned at all well. no they weren't officially sanctioned. but I just I figured they were.

uh I I thought the the real army might. have used them at times I don't know I. don't know enough about it it's possible. I mean you got a couple thousand people. with guns ready to fight why not yeah. well I know they weree fake uniforms and. he he made up a a rank for himself and. took a Alias he was lieutenant rouso and. eventually even made himself Captain I. don't know why he didn't start off as. Captain as long as he's making things up. yeah he kind of sold himself short there. didn't he well he became Captain. eventually so he um he ended up in Paris.

eventually after he left the arm rant. and um this is around. 1795 the French Revolution had had um. had been successful but there's. something to understand about it. like one of the reasons Paris was so. over with crime was not just that there. was a lack of potential candidates for. the. police there was also like reev the. threat of Revolution and regime change. was constant during these decades it.

wasn't like the French Revolution. happened and it was over yeah it was a. mess it was a mess first Napoleon comes. along is like hey I'll take over from. here I'm now Emperor he he ran uh France. for a really long time for well a decade. or something like that then he was. deposed and a new King was installed a. new King was installed after that that. King was deposed and a new citizen King. was put into place and then around that. time finally um our our protagonist dies. but like throughout all this time like.

there are there's a lot of tension and. conflict in the country and because. everybody was preoccupied with that. stuff crime was allowed to flourish it. was a really dangerous Lawless time it. particularly in Paris because a lot of. people were also coming to Paris looking. for opportunity and that kind of thing. and so um it was a just just put that in. your in your pipe and hold it in your. hat for later because that's that's that.

this is the backdrop that that um that. he shows up in Paris against that's. right so he ends up in Paris during this. very tumultuous time uh great time to be. a criminal in Paris sure you know very. uh I don't know about easy to get away. with stuff but you know you could be a. pretty successful criminal at the time. and that's what he did uh sort of. through his 20s and into his 30s he was. in and out of prison kind of off and on. because of uh various schemes it it was. never like uh I'm not going to say it.

was victimless but it was never like. violent crimes it seems like he was like. a really good really good at uh forging. documents and things like that and uh. all of his schemes seem to be uh kind of. like on the more intelligent side Mak. sense he was definitely intelligent yes. yeah so it's not like he was walking up. and bonking someone on the head and. stealing their purse um he graduated to. more elaborate kind of uh you know. forgeries and things like that yeah and. he also.

um he was a criminal with a heart he. landed in this one prison um oh what is. it called bagno I believe oh was that. where he the the The Bread Guy was yes. so so this is a really good example of. that he um yeah he was finally caught. and sentenced for I think just three. months in prison just three months but. while there he was so moved by a guy who. had been given six years for stealing. grain to feed his family who are.

starving The Bread Guy by the way the. bread guy right if people are confused. so he was so moved by that and and. thought that it was so unjust that he'd. been given six years he forged documents. that um that were that he signed as like. the head of I think the prison or the. police saying like this man is to be. released his his his sentence has been. commuted and the guy made it made made. off like he he was released um and I. think it took a few months for the whole. thing to finally be found out but I.

think the do was in in jail at the time. when they did find out and they gave him. eight years for that for forging papers. that released a man who had been given. six years for stealing grain yeah so. this time he went to uh a hard labor. prison like you said it was called a uh. I don't know how it's pronounced I think. they started in Italy uh under a. different name but b a n o the bag no. the agno like if you've ever seen the.

movie uh I looked into these the the. movie papon mhm uh the Island prison. they were on that was one and I think it. was just like a a very tough it was like. the toughest of the tough prisons hard. labor um usually in uh shackles uh very. hard to escape from yet he did manage to. escape even from here uh and I think he. he escaped as a sailor and was caught. and put back and then escaped again uh. posed as a nun uh so he as you will see.

later he was in fact a Master of. Disguise MH uh was very good at it and. if he was able to pass himself off as a. nun clearly pretty good at it yeah and. it's really something that he escaped. not just once but twice from a galley. prison because they they were originally. before they moved them onto land they. were ships giant ships with tons of ores. sticking out of them and you would be. sentenced to hard labor rowing those. ores day in and day out it was a really.

rough place to to spend 8 years and it. would also be a really difficult place. to escape from but he did twice so he. started to get a reputation as someone. who no prison could hold in in addition. to being a Master of Disguise and when. you start kind of doing stuff like that. your your name gets around and you start. to become a bit of a legend among not. just the the the um criminals but also. like law enforcement as well so his his. star is starting to R eyes and I think. as we reach this point Chuck it's time.

for um message break what do you think. as we reach this point I. [Music]. agree.

[Music]. all right so where we left off uh vok. has escaped prison a couple of times he. was a juvenile delinquent he was a. delinquent into his 20s and into his 30s. through his 20s and into his 30s and. then finally ends up back in. Paris uh he was trying to get pulled. into the criminal underworld again. because he was welln and and he was kind. of in a bad spot because if he said no.

he would get blackmailed uh by these low. lives and threatened to turn him in. because he was a fugitive at this point. still right so finally he was like all. right uh what am I doing with my life. all this on the Run stuff on the lamb in. Disguise as a nun this is for the birds. uh in 1809 he said I'm going to go to. the cops and I'm going to say I would. like to turn myself in and make myself. well sort of turn myself in what he.

really wanted to do was turn into a. police informant and get out of jail and. they said hey great idea but you're. going to do that for at least a little. while in jail right that is I mean that. sounds like oh that's cool that was an. incredibly dangerous position to put. himself in for two straight years it. still is he was an in sure he was an. informant a volunteer informant for the. police and he would he would inform on. anybody and so I was saying early that I. would bring up a Counterpoint to the.

idea that it was just completely. self-serving from what I saw another. explanation is that he never actually. thought of himself as a criminal he. thought of himself as an Outlaw by. circumstance like he had made a lot of. bad decisions he knew that and that had. made him run a foul of the law but he. wasn't a criminal like that's not how he. wanted to support himself he didn't have. the heart of a criminal um and so this. was a way to to basically say I don't. want to be a criminal anymore I don't.

want to be associated with these people. I want to change sides and this is how. I'm going to try to do it or another way. to look at it is um that. he he was he was he finally grew up. essentially and realized like okay this. is this is not okay I need to I need to. change things and I've worked myself. into such a deep hole this is the. alternative to just going like okay I'm. going to become a criminal from now. those were his choices That's How Deep. The Holy dug was and the thing is Chuck. no matter how you interpret it whether.

it was a selfish act whether it was you. know you know his Destiny whatever that. shows a remarkable amount of initiative. to do that like he said I'm not going to. be a criminal I'm not going to turn to. Life Of Crime I'm going to basically put. myself in the hands of cops who hate me. um and see if they will have me as as. one of their own yeah I I think he. probably grew up I don't know that I buy. that if he had come from nothing I could. buy that but he came from a pretty good.

he he wasn't forced into committing. crimes to survive no but I think that's. why he didn't see himself as a criminal. because he had made choices or whatever. he wasn't a a criminal I he just didn't. see himself like that from what I saw so. he made choices to commit crimes but. didn't see himself as a. criminal yes okay yes he made choices. that were that that were. criminal but he wasn't making choices. like to do crime like that wasn't his. his aim was for Crime he was just making.

bad decisions that were criminal and. that made him a criminal in the eyes of. society I'm not saying like it was it. didn't make him a criminal he just. didn't think of himself as a criminal to. him there was a differentiation between. people who commit crimes and criminals. he did not think very highly of. criminals like career criminals somebody. who would slit your throat for like your. your wallet or something like that that. like Elvis was a drug addict but Elvis. was on pills and he looked down on real.

drug addicts that were taking hard drugs. like heroin it's funny you bring that up. because I think of this same him turning. over himself to the police to say hey I. want to inform for you as very similar. to Elvis showing up at the White House. and volunteering to be a undercovered. narc agent for um Nixon oh totally and I. think they were both pretty hypocritical. for sure so so for sure yeah that's the. thing I don't want to give the. impression that I'm just like an. apologist for vid I I I just think that.

there is alternative explanation and one. of them is that he didn't see himself as. a criminal even though he was a criminal. I I totally agree I totally believe that. like they're nothing but innocent people. in prison if you ask them okay you know. sure what that was uh what's it called. chos shank oh is that who that was yeah. remember that great scene when they were. at at lunch or whatever when they were. all saying like hell like hey none of us. did it like no one in here did any of. the crimes that we're in here for mhm.

it's pretty funny uh anyway uh so he for. two years worked in that prison like he. said just uh uh what he would do was. pass on information to his girlfriend uh. who would get it to the police chief of. Paris and it was going really well H. apparently so well that at some point he. um helped Napoleon's Empress josephin uh. catch the person who stole her Emerald. necklace and so he was on Napoleon's. radar at Le at least for a moment I'm. not sure how much Napoleon hung on to.

that but it it was a uh sort of a. feather in his cap as an informant for. sure for sure and that police chief was. named Jean Henry or enry not with an i. but a y so I'm not sure how it's. pronounced exactly but he was um he was. finally smitten after two years um with. with vidok he was all in for this guy so. he said okay we're going to let you out. but this is an unofficial release like.

you're actually not going to get. pardoned or released on paper because we. need you as a a police informant what. they used to call Thief takers they were. kind of like the predecessors to bounty. hunters where anybody could go catch. thieves and bring them in for money he. was a an undercover version of that and. that's new brand new they did not have. undercover police at the time so vidok. has basically carved out a a a totally. unique pecul place for himself in the. Paris Police and it's largely because um.

Jean Henry uh believes in him and is. sees also the value in him going back. into the underworld and informing on. them not just from jail but like from. the actual outside crime. world and John Henry also said stay away. from my wife yeah exactly I better not. find you embracing. her uh so as a uh a CI is what you would. call it today I guess he was doing his.

thing uh he knew the people very well uh. he knew his old hauns um he was not um. unwilling to just hand over his uh. friends and former sort of um cohorts in. the thievery world uh and the underworld. he would he would do that at a moment's. notice um Dave uh ruse helped us out. with this he found one case where he was. actually in on a robbery helped planet. uh helped execute the robbery and then.

when the cops come he pretended like he. had been shot uh so he could you know. get out of the whole thing well no so. that the the the robbers who were there. wouldn't know that he was a police. informant they would think he was yeah. so and by the way that that that burglar. the robber St Germaine was a really. wanted man he was also a murderer um and. it was actually a pretty interesting. um I guess project that undertook and. and got the guy um but and we didn't say.

also the reason he was able to go back. into the um underworld again was because. the police staged an escape like they. allowed him to escape to make it look. like he'd broken out of prison not that. they'd released him so that he would. seem like he it was vidok who' broken. out of prison again and now he was back. in the Paris underworld that's right so. this underworld at the time was um it. was a Paris where they uh police least. in a in a way that wasn't tenable they.

were uh confined to districts and if you. were in a district you couldn't go to. another District to investigate you had. to stick to your District uh the. criminals at the time knew this they. were Savvy and so they would commit. crimes uh not near where they lived. which made it a lot easier to get away. with stuff and so vok comes in and says. hey I was one of these guys you you're. you guys are dumb and how you're doing. things because all you have to do is go. on the other side of Paris to commit a. crime and you're probably going to get.

away with it unless you're caught. red-handed and so what you guys should. do is uh continue to allow me to work. undercover I know it's not something. you've ever done because you like to. wear these ridiculous uniforms that. identify you from a mile away and get. rid of these districts and allow cops to. investigate wherever they need in order. to solve a crime and they said okay uh. in 1812 uh they made vok chief of the. security Brigade in French it is the. what.

Bri fantastic and they said go hire some. men and he said all right I'm going to. go hire eight former criminals excon. that I used to know these are the best. of the worst and it's sort of like the. dirty dozen he's like except it was the. dirty eight it the dirty oo and they. said come with me and we're all going to. be this undercover agent security. Brigade we're going to clean up Paris. yeah and I think that definitely. undermines the idea that he had no. loyalty whatsoever to the people he' met.

as a criminal in Paris um he just didn't. have loyalty to actual real criminals he. he distinguished the difference between. people who commit crimes and actual. criminals and so he was he accused of. disloyalty yeah I mean we said earlier. that he had no loyalty whatsoever to the. Paris criminal. Community oh I don't think so I think he. turned in people he thought should be. turned in and was loyal to his friends. so these are the people people that he. picked and yes it's very um uh.

unorthodox uh and I think if Paris. hadn't been overrun with crime he never. would have been able to put together a a. Paris wide undercover police force made. up of EXC convicts it even sounds nuts. today in 2023 I can't imagine what it. sounded like back in 1812 yeah um but. his whole premise was if you send. somebody who's a cop give me a great cop. who could do undercover work. mhm he'll get sniffed out immediately.

and they will murder him he will die you. can't have people who don't come from. this uh do this kind of work like that's. it was very dangerous undercover work. and so that's the main reason why he. chose these xcon but I also get the. impression too is that part of it was to. to just kind of demonstrate his point. that that just because somebody had done. time and been convicted of a crime. doesn't mean they could never be. trustworthy again I think you misspoke I. think you meant sniffed off the case.

right that's right man how could I miss. that one uh do we break now or do we go. for a little bit longer um I think we. should talk a little bit more about the. security. Brigade okay um so started in 1812 like. you said it turned out to be a really. big success um Napoleon just a year. later signed a decree that said the. security Brigade is a state police force. now and you can have as up to 28 men is.

what they grew to and uh I think through. four or five years into it they uh and. of course some of this stuff is we. should say vok would write a lot about. his uh and his Memoirs and stuff he he. was not shy about tooting his own horn. let's say uh and he's one of those guys. where like if you read his Memoir. they're you know some of it could be. boasting some of it could be stretching. the truth a little but we do know that. they were to super successful like no. one is doubting that uh but he uh touted.

15 murders in in just one year uh 15. murderers 341 thieves 38 uh receivers of. stolen goods 14 escaped convicts 43. parole violations 46 forgers swindlers. conmen 229 vagabonds and suspicious. types so they are they're kicking butt. and taking names in Paris yeah and make. a note of this for later uh and put it. in your pipe in your hat um that this.

this is a group of criminals who are. showing up the regular police yeah and. the regular police are not really fans. of being shown up in the public like the. public was was reading all about this. stuff and they were getting famous for. it very much so and um they were pulling. in like the big whales while the police. were chasing down you know um. pickpockets and stuff like that yeah. Oliver twists so there was a definite. rivalry sure yeah he was a pickpocket.

right no I don't think so are you. thinking of Annie Annie was a p. poock oh I've already misspoken on. Oliver Twist and Annie before so I'm not. going to do it again forget everything I. said everybody don't write in so uh yeah. yeah for sure we we know how to make the. division symbol on a keyboard exactly no. we do so um he uh what was I saying. Chuck uh you were saying that he was. Landing the whales yes so there was a. lot of rivalry and disdain for this the.

security Brigade from the regular police. just remember that they didn't like him. they did not uh all right so uh a few. things you know Dave found some great. anecdotes from the security Brigade uh. we already know that he knew a lot about. the crime world and these criminals and. he was uh apparently there was this one. story where like he would know their. methods like specific people known their. methods and there was one story about uh. this robbery that they found where a.

thief had cut around a lock and he was. like I know who did that like I know. that work that is fard and in the movie. version they said to that can't be fosad. fosad is in prison and someone steps up. and said facade escaped from prison one. week ago and vok says then it is him. that's awesome I in scene I feel like. the um the guy who stepped up to inform. everybody that he escaped from prison. was agodor Spartacus from the bird cage.

probably I never saw that. movie really I'm excited for you Chuck. you holes you need to fill that hole and. you'll do it over and over again you'll. keep filling that hole over and over. again because it's such a great movie. and you can just watch it so many. times uh and uh also don't email about. inene we've already been over that. before it just a joke I meant anene and. scene uh what else it was an envelope a. scrap of envelope with a half of an.

address and supposedly vidok was able to. um uh make out the full address because. he knew about all the criminal Hangouts. like this is where it must be that was. that kind of thing I mean that's just. like who else is going to be able to do. that nobody vuck uh he also um he was. not shy about you know going out guns. blazing they got a tip that a stage. coach was going to get knocked over in. the forest outside of Paris so they got. on the stage coach undercover and when. the bandits inevitably showed up and.

stopped the stage coach they got out and. started just shooting and it got Roo and. tooting really. fast uh now should we take a break yeah. I think we've established that the. security Brigade was pretty successful. they were very successful they're doing. great work and we'll be right back to. talk about his pioneering work in. criminology right after. this. [Music].

Chuck I feel like in the movie version. that would have been a a montage that we. just. discussed I think Depp UE it definitely.

was a montage uh I think Depp U played. him in a movie called vok but it was it. wasn't like his life story it was like a. lot of uh mistakes I think movies make. they're just like hey let's just talk. about this one uh Central crime and plot. and vok is the guy on the case okay that. makes sense it sounds like they were. trying to grow a franchise. unsuccessfully yeah I guess they did. that with a Sherlock Holmes movies I. think I'd just like to see a movie about. him like his real life yeah like yeah I.

mean it writes itself it does even if. you strip away like the legend stuff it. writes itself he's just that fascinating. so we called him the father of modern. criminology and not just us guys. everybody calls him that and the reason. why is because he was pioneering all. sorts of techniques of criminology. they're still used today it's amazing it. is on the one hand you can be like this. is all lwh hanging fruit like he's the.

first guy doing it but when you put it. all together it's it's like he was a. sharp dude and it also shows how zeroed. in and focused he was on fighting crime. that this is what he I don't think it. was I don't think it was low hanging. fruit if like no one else is doing this. stuff right I think that's a a a. retrospective look like if I don't know. I think if it was low hanging people. would have been doing it okay you don't. for let's take ballistics for example he. is credited with with um doing the first.

ballistics comparison in the history of. um law enforcement yeah so 1822 uh the. the body of Contessa Isabelle Darcy uh. was found shot to death they arrest the. husband uh even back then it's likely. that the husband did it and they took. his dueling pistol and it's like this is. you know the murder weapon and he was. like it wasn't me he she had an Italian. lover and I guarantee it was that guy. and do very simply was like hey let's. remove that bullet from the skull they.

got the bullet out and they were like. you can't put a bullet like that in a. dueling pistol and they tracked down the. Italian Lover he confessed and I see why. you call it low hanging fruit because it. seems like it makes so much sense just. to say well hey let's look at the bullet. but I don't know if no one else is. suggesting it no no for sure and and. even if that if that had been his only. you know contribution you know you would. be like yeah this that's that's need or. whatever but I wouldn't call it. remarkable it's the fact that he came up. with so many different things and the.

only reason I call it low hanging fruit. is not to put him down but because I. think that over time somebody would have. had the same thought right I agree that. no one just had but he was basically. standing under the tree spinning. grabbing all the fruit that was one of. the things that makes him remarkable he. was a fruit Grabber he was grabbing that. Falling Fruit I got another one let's. hear it footprint analysis is a good one. yeah like we would have no idea that.

Bigfoot exists if vidok hadn't come. along and figured out that you can. actually make a reverse a negative of a. footprint if you fill the footprint in. with par with plaster a plaster at Paris. appropriately yeah he's like can I get. plaster and they're like this is Paris. what are you kidding me it's. everywhere so um he actually uh this was. a lead Heist someone had stolen a bunch. of lead and it turned out to be a former. police agent but he he made a cast of. the footprint compared it to the boot.

Treads of other suspects and found one. that matched and the guy was like yes it. was me vidok you found me out amazing uh. he also early on and this one to me is. really remarkable he he was like all. right that footprint thing worked and he. was like fingerprints that's got to be a. thing like look at these look at this. look at your thumb everybody and. everyone looked at their thumb and they. all had uh you know uh past cream on it. and so they licked it off and then. looked at their thumb they're like oh.

wow and he said we could probably use. this too but they just couldn't find. like a way to do it they didn't have the. technology yet they couldn't find an ink. that would work and record the. fingerprints properly so that didn't. happen but he had the idea yeah he also. so that ink in the the forge proof paper. he came up with while he ran a paper. mill during one of his down periods. between fighting crime yeah I think that. was late in life wasn't that like a. retirement job or am I wrong about that.

it was in between his his um reign as. head of the security Brigade and and his. next ACT we'll just leave it at that. okay I got you so what else the other. thing he did was he was really good he. had a great memory apparently and was. really good at remembering like the. people and the faces of the people of. the underworld and their names and he. like first thing he did was said all of. you cops should get good at that too. because that really helps if you like go.

to the prisons and observe the guys in. the prison and the exercise yard and. like remember their faces remember their. names and maybe we should start writing. this stuff down and keeping track of. criminals actually and they went o we. have never done such a thing and he said. well start doing it and that was the. beginning of uh I mean it was like a. card catalog at the time but that was. the beginning of uh what do you call it. uh the criminal database yeah criminal.

database yeah. profiling uh sure but I mean it was. everything like if you were a forger. they would have a h a sample of your. handwriting like it was really detailed. I saw that it had I think 30,000 Crooks. information but it covered millions of. pages essentially yeah they were really. like into it and then another thing he. um helped establish was essentially the. criminal profiling from a psychological. standpoint he wrote A Treatise um called.

leur psychology. deur a psychology physiology okay let me. try that again leur colon physiology. de de longa longa. log I think that's how you say language. but anyway it means thieves and I added. the colon he actually used a comma an. anatomy of their mores and their. language and it was a study of like the.

mind of a thief and it was. evidence-based like it was a scientific. paper that he wrote about the Criminal. Mind um and I think that actually. undermines the idea that his Memoirs. were like him just being over the top uh. I saw that he had written a manuscript. for his Memoirs handed it in then after. he handed it in the publisher hired a. ghost writer to punch it up they G it up. and that he wasn't super happy about. that when he found the the final product. when he read the book so oh he was in.

fact a humble man I don't know about. that but I don't in midd think he was as. boastful as he has a reputation for. based on his Memoirs oh okay uh like we. mentioned he was a Master of Disguise uh. as were his men in his uh in his police. force and they could they could do it. all they were like Monty Python they. would dress up as like we said nuns and. women and uh old people young people uh. thieves obviously and it was was a time. and it sounds a little nonsensical that. thieves would dress and speak in a.

certain way and wear their hair in a. certain way but there been times in. history when that was the case like uh. uh if you look at this some of the old. gangster uh uh British gangsters of a. Time sort of did the same thing you. carry yourself and I think today even. and you would call it profiling but you. know there's there's certain ways of. dress to sort of be in the world where. crimes are happening there always has. been yeah you wear tracksuits. yeah oh no I'm wearing a tracksuit right.

now criminal I would turn you in if I. were vok but they had their own style so. they would obviously were very good at. mimicking that style and in the Memoirs. and this you know could have been a. Ghost Rider because it is very flourishy. uh apparently he had a habit uh very. cinematically of pulling off his mask or. his costume uh at the at the last moment. and saying it is I vid do as the sh. Eckles are being put on the criminal yes. or like Tom Cruz in any Mission Possible.

movie that's right so Chuck I said. everybody should remember that he had. lots of enemies in the real police. regular police and they very they. routinely accused him of illegal. activity like planning evidence. accepting bribes and trapping people. kidnapping uh young women to take them. off to uh convents to become nuns at. their parents behest yeah I saw that all. of the stuff these are accusations none. of these things were ever proven he was. never even taken to court for most of. them there were two cases that soled his.

reputation that gave the police the. chance to really drag him through the. mud one was that one of his agents was. accused of helping a group of robbers. that he actually busted that he had. taken some money from them for bringing. a key so they could break into a place. easier he got two years it's not clear. that that actually did happen but the. guy got two years anyway and uh vidok. had so laid his reputation on the line. that not only he could be trusted but.

his agents could be trusted too that he. resigned he was like that's that's fine. I'll resign I'm clearly not meant for. this any longer like my reputation has. been tarnished and I'm just going to go. off and start a paper mill um he was. brought back and he was the head for. another year or something like that and. then he said you know what forget this. I'm going to go out and start my own. detective agency the world's first. detective a. I think um almost 20 years before the. Pinkerton even.

started yeah I think part of the I think. it was twofold as for the cops like they. definitely didn't like that he was. outshining them and I think they were. always suspicious that he never left his. criminal pass behind because he lived. Beyond his means of his salary um I saw. so I can't remember how much he made as. a salary I think it was like 5,000 what. was Franks. trunks MH at the time uh and he lived as.

a man who had much more money than that. uh so he had all kinds of s hustles he. was in real estate I think he helped run. a Tavern and so he made extra money. doing other things and I think they were. always suspicious that he was still. dabbling in. criminality uh one thing he did that was. I thought fairly interesting and um I'm. not sure how illegal it was there was a. thing at the time where you could um. pay somebody to take your place in the. Army basically uh if you didn't want to.

go to the Army you could offer up a. substitute you could pay that substitute. and they were glad to take the money to. do that and what he would do was he. would catch a criminal and say hey you. want to go to prison or you want to go. to the Army and if they said I'd rather. go to the Army he would say here's your. substitute Now give me my money so. whether or not that's actually illegal. who knows uh it it it's. borderline yeah and I think stuff like. that sort of made the cops that that. just added to their ey I think because.

he was making more money than they were. so did that um did that definitely. happened that was proven that he did. that that wasn't just an accusation that. like turned into fact over time I'm not. sure I read it in a book uh you know it. wasn't like some internet article you. know it was from an act an actual book. it wasn't on YouTube no it was it was in. a book okay so regardless of this he has. he's founded this new this detective. agency again the first detective agency. in the world and he started out um.

basically cering White Collar criminals. uh for large you know corporate um. clients people who swindled them made. off with money embezzled that kind of. stuff and there was one case in. particular uh and this was after years. years of this successful detective. agency continuing to show up the. security Brigade The his successor's. brother ran a bank and when the bank got. knocked knocked over the brother came to. vidok not the head of the security.

Brigade who he was related to um so. there was a case where a guy he had. caught a guy who had absconded with. money he brought him into the office for. questioning and got the guy convinced. the guy to give up like 2200 Franks to. just begin repayment put it in his. account as he normally did to then hand. over to the people who' hired him less. the 4 5% they promised him for finding. right that happened and a week later the.

cops show up and arrest him for false. imprisonment impersonating a police. officer and um taking bribes essentially. and this is where his reputation really. got. tarnished yeah it was a by most accounts. it was a setup like a complete setup. right like he he they looked all over to. find people who would say in court that. he was a c. they couldn't find anybody even other. criminals they couldn't find anybody.

except for this one guy compai who was. the one person who accused him so he um. regardless is convicted given I think. like five or six years and within. apparently weeks he F he gets his case. in front of the appet court who took. like less than a day to throw the case. out cuz he' clearly been railroaded and. exonerated him but his reputation had. been so solid even at the time his star.

really fell um and he looked around for. somebody to sell the detective detective. agency to apparently there were plenty. of buyers but they were like frauders. just looking to take advantage of people. so he just closed the thing down. instead amazing and there's here's. another example so you hear that he got. 10 months uh he spent 10 months in jail. for that um crime right impersonating a. police officer and all that. he didn't he spent 10 months in between. the time he was accused and the time he.

was finally brought to trial and then. after that he was acquitted within weeks. of being um convicted does that make. sense like that kind of detail like. matters hundreds of years on it does so. the cherry on top of this story is that. uh vok left behind a really interesting. literary uh Legacy and uh not only just. the books he wrote he wrote uh Memoirs. like we said uh he wrote that uh that.

crime book the science book that was so. great uh but Victor Hugo he had friends. like this Victor Hugo and ballzack one. of my favorite names they use him as. inspiration if you read the book Le M. Rob or go see that uh Broadway show if. you see that awesome movie and uh and. you cry every time an Hathaway sings. like I do it's amazing because she's. good or bad at it have you never ever. seen it no I saw the stage play it's. great or the musical guess great they.

did something different in that musical. where they uh they didn't lip sync they. actually recorded them singing oh neat. uh in the moment on stage on the scene. and they had never done that before wow. and so it's like palpable and real and. boy it's good uh I loved it so lay Miz. though is is the story about uh a man. who gets put in jail for stealing bread. so that might familiar from uh vu's real. life but uh apparently Hugo actually.

used both of the characters uh Jean. valan and uh who's the other guy Spector. ja jav as Inspirations you know he was. the inspiration for both because he was. both uh criminal and cop later on uh not. only that but uh mentioned ballzack uh. he cited vok specifically as inspiration. for valtr. his character then of course once you. see who the character is it makes a lot. of sense uh Escape convict and criminal.

mastermind who uh repents and becomes a. police officer a minister police in. Italy yeah not bad so um the what's. widely believed to be the the mo the. first modern detective novel was the. murders in the ru morg by edar alen Poe. and there's an amateur French detective. named dupin and PO said that he. definitely um uh base dupin on vid do. one that's a little less clear A Little.

Less Direct is Sherlock Holmes um. there's some some traits between. Sherlock Holmes and vidok like Masters. of Disguise and like dealing with the. criminal Underworld for information and. all that stuff but Sherlock Holmes was. based on a French detective that came. before mure lco and Emil G gabo who. wrote the books that Lok was the. protagonist of. definitely modeled Lok on vidok so Lok.

was uh based on vidok and Shake Sherlock. Holmes was based on LW so I think by. transited property oh nice is that it I. hope so. man. math so that's it what a guy yeah he. definitely deserves a a um at least a. decent movie if not yeah as a franchise. you know what I mean yeah and can't you. find someone besides Gerard deardo I.

mean surely feel like he was just the. guy for so long he's he's old now and I. think he didn't get mewed I don't know I. know that France kind of was like you. stink because he moved so he wouldn't. have to pay high. taxes maybe that's that's the last thing. I heard of all right oh there's one. other thing there's a group called The. vidok Society in Philadelphia that's. made up of like criminologists and. people in law enforcement who take uh. cold cases on pro bono during their. monthly lunches and try to inject new.

life into the cases you know they love. that name for sure the vok society. pretty cool and they all come in in. Disguise and then rip off their masks. they say it is I at lunch that's right. every. day well that's vidok for you if you. want to know more about him there's a. lot of interesting contradictory stuff. out there to read uh and since I said. contradictory that means of course it's. it's time for listener. mail uh I'm going to call this uh my way. or the.

Skyway um that has nothing to do with it. it's just about the Skyway disaster uh. we heard from a a doctor this is a. really good email hey guys just recently. started listening to the show found the. episode uh Hyatt Regency Skywalk. disaster very interesting I'm a. physician and was in residency at a. hospital in Kansas City not far from the. Crown Center at that time and I was on. call that Friday night and was watching. TV with a number of other residents when. I heard the news uh and we knew that we. were in for a busy night uh I'm writing.

in basically to mention two things I. thought you might find interesting uh. ironically the Kansas City metro area. had planned for a mass disaster drill. the next day wow of course the drill was. cancelled and instead the response to. the actual disaster was analyzed. resulting in significant changes for. future plans for a response to a mass. disaster wow that's incredible um and. this one uh both of my sons graduated. from college with engineering degrees uh. a few years ago uh they were taught.

about the Hiatt disaster in their. classes and there're still lessons to be. learned from what happened even decades. later and that is from Dr Paul M Jo of. uh Kansas City thanks a lot Dr Jose that. was an amazing email like jeez that's. some background right there yeah and hey. way to get on listener mail like as a. new listener that's well done yeah just. pat yourself on the back take off your. lab coat so you have a little extra. stretching room and pat yourself on the. back that's right and also doc I got.

this shoulder thing going. on ni well if you want to be like Dr J. and send us some really Arcane info. about an episode that we did we love to. hear that stuff you can send it to us. via email at stuff podcast. iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts ihart. radio visit the ihart radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite. [Music].

shows.