The Cliffs Notes on Cliffs Notes | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's. here, too. And this is the brief. overview of Cliff Notes. We're not going to do the. uh exhaustive encyclopedic documentary. length Cliff's Notes episode. Nope. We. are doing the brief overview of Cliff's.

Notes. I said it wrong the first time. It's never been cliff notes. It's. Cliff's notes. Uh, yeah. I mean, the. first thing we should probably say. because Jerry in the pre-show banter. even got it wrong. Even though I said, "Jerry, we're doing an episode on. Cliff's notes." She said, "I used to get. Cliff. notes." It's not cliffnotes. I used to. say cliff notes too in high school, but. uh it is Cliff's notes uh as in the. person's name was Cliff, as we'll soon. found out uh find out. It used to have.

an apostrophe. Mhm. Then it just became. Cliff's two words notes without an. apostrophe. Sure. Then it became Cliff's. notes. All one word, but with that N. capitalized. So stylish. But it has. never been cliffnotes. No. But everyone. basically in the world calls it. cliffnotes, right? Uh, and we should. tell everyone what this is if you don't. know. Um, I do know that they went. around the world a little bit, but it. feels like a very American thing. Uh, it. is a uh a study aid. Uh, it's bas.

basically sort of I was about to say a. cliffnotes version of the book cuz it's. so in the lexicon now, but it's like if. you went to read a book in high school. in the 80s like the Scarlet Letter and. you're like, "Oh god, do I really have. to read the Scarlet Letter?" You would. go to a store and you would buy this uh. yellow and black uh very thin pamphlet. I don't remember how much they were. then. They're only about $8.99 now. Yeah. And it would contextualize the. work. It would summarize the work, give. you character uh descriptions, basically.

everything you needed to know the night. before to pass the test or write the. paper. Yeah. And like you said, it's. entered the lexicon. Most people can. recognize it just that from that yellow. and black cover. It looks like a Men at. Work album cover. Yeah. Or Striper. Striper. Yes. Very nice. Maybe that's. where Striper got it. Maybe. Uh, and. then Yeah, this most people in America. know what we're talking about. I do. wonder how how well known it is around. the world, though. I I mean, I think. it's ended up going to 39 countries, but.

it just feels like a very lazy American. thing, especially for Gen Xers, to be. like, I'll just get that and that's. fine. Yeah. because it's been long. basically from the outset criticized for. bas for being this thing that students. read and use instead of actually reading. the material the book that they're. supposed to read. Uh that actually ran a. foul I guess of what the guy who. invented these things intent was. He.

always said no this is not what that's. for. You're supposed to read the the. regular you know book. You're supposed. to read the Scarlet Letter, Chuck, and. you're whether you like it or not, it. doesn't matter. And then you get the. Cliff's notes and you understand it that. much more fully. That was the point. That's right. Uh and of course, we're. talking about Keith Hilligas. Oh, I'm. kidding. Clifton Heath Kiligas. His name. was was Cliff. Uh gentleman was a true. corn husker, as we'll see. He was born. in 1918 uh out in the rural sticks of.

Nebraska. Uh his father was a male. carrier and he was a a very smart kid. and uh and I would assume a smart adult. because he studied physics and math at. uh Midland Lutheran College and then was. going to grad school for physics and ge. uh geology at the University of. Nebraska. Go Corn Huskers. Okay. but. dropped out in 1939 to marry a classmate. named Katherine Galbrath at which time. he got a job at uh Long's College Books.

as a clerk and that company would later. become the Nebraska Book Company. Yeah. So, long story short, uh Cliff Hilligas. is was a very smart guy. I saw that he. was said to read five books a week. basically his whole life. Or did he just. read five quick summaries? I don't know. I just don't know because he's dead now. and we can't ask him. That's right. Uh. but he worked at the the NBC, Nebraska. Book Company, up until World War II when. he went through the Army. Uh he was a.

meteorologist for the Army Airore. So. again, pretty smart dude. Uh ended up a. captain and his wife Katherine worked as. a clerk for the Manhattan project, so. she was sharp as attack as well. Yeah. Also, I want to give big ups. Um are we. still saying big ups? Heck yeah, man. We're we're old people. We can say. whatever we I want to give big ups to. Livia who helped us out with this. because there is not a lot of. information on Cliff's Notes out there. Yeah. Uh it's like it's just not out. there. You can get like the the like.

appropriately enough the brief overview. of Cliff Notes and its history, but to. really dig in and get the details, you. got to get out there. So, thanks to her. for that. She did it. I think she she. broke into the estate of the Hilligas. estate and stole a diary. She did. I think so. Yeah. Um, and then. also I want to give big ups to Menof. Floss, too, because they did some really. good reporting on it, too. Some good. digging. Yeah, for sure. Um, all right. So, back to Cliff Hilligas. He was in. the army. Then after the war, he went.

back to his old job at the Nebraska Book. Company and we knew you'd be crawling. back. Yeah. and uh he helped transform. them into a a wholesale textbook. distributor. And he ended up sort of. traveling all over the country buying. and selling used textbooks when a little. trip to Toronto, Canada, uh ended up. being quite a good thing for the course. of his life, right? Yeah. Depending on. who you're talking about, it wasn't that. good of a thing for a guy named Jack.

Cole, the guy who we had dinner with in. Toronto, who was a bookstore owner. Um. and Jack Cole was like, "Hey, man. I'm. going to let you in on this this. business opportunity. I have these. condensed pamphlets that basically are. analysis of Shakespeare's plays. I I. publish um 16 of them and and I think. the quote from Cliff Hilligas was. JCole said, "Yes, I know." Yeah. He. said, "I want you to be the American. distributor of these pamphlets, which I.

call Koh's notes." and Clifton Hilligas. said, "All right, I'll give it a shot.". And started selling these things, publishing them in and selling them in. America. And what happened from Cole's. notes, Chuck? Well, first thing we should say is he. took great risk, and I'm not like, you. know, weighing in one way or the other. of the ethics of any of this, but. Hilligas did take upon great financial. risk. Uh he got a loan for $4,000 to. make this happen, close to 50 grand.

today, and printed up 33,000 copies of. these Kohl's notes himself and he and. his wife Katherine and their three young. kids like packed and shipped these. things in in their house uh out of their. home for a little while and were selling. pretty good. And um then what happened, Josh? Well, yeah. So he they were paying. royalties to Jet Cole. That was the That. was the setup. And within the first. year, I guess Hilligas was like, "Nuts.

to that. I'm just going to rename these. things Cliff Notes." Yeah, Cliff's. notes. So, they went from Cole's Notes. to Cliff's Notes. I think the the um. Cole was heard to say, um and Cliff was. like, "I can't hear you. I'm down in. Nebraska." Um so, I I just see people. gloss over this all the time. Like it's. I I just don't understand why it's not. at all controversial because he clearly. just took he just lifted the. intellectual property of Jack Cole and. took it as his own. To to be fair, he.

rewrote and phased out the Kohl's note. stuff, but the whole concept and even. basically the name was the same. Yeah, I. would argue that maybe the name is. intellectual property, but I think in a. court of law, a judge would say like you. can't claim like doing a condensed. version of a book as like an original. idea that no one else can do because. there there there were summaries before. this. They didn't invent the idea of a. literary summary. You know what I'm.

saying? Yeah. But if law and order has. taught me anything, it's that you can't. predict what a judge is going to rule. No, that's true. But and I do I'm not. like going to bat for Cliff. I'm just. saying that I don't think that's one of. those ideas you can say like I hold the. idea for condensing a long novel into a. shorter version. No, I understand. And. I'm not trying to like gun him down. I. just hadn't gotten my gotcha today. So. that was. I do feel bad for Cole though if it. helps. I do too. And I saw nowhere what.

his his his reaction was or what he did. I I made up his quote of um that was a. joke. But yeah, everybody just walks right. past that stuff. Yeah, for sure. And I. refuse to. Well, people I feel like. everyone is called out online for for. doing something like this, but old old. Cliff gets a pass, I guess, because. everyone got through school because of. him. Yeah, that's the thing. So, uh. yeah, this is not to paint him as a bad. guy. If you want to know about him, he. treasured letters that he got from.

students thanking him for helping them. get through school, which you and I can. attest getting a letter and email like. that is really great. Um, so I guess. that makes us really great, too, if I'm. saying that that's a that makes him a. good guy. That's wonderful. That really. worked out. Yeah. Uh, he sold a lot of. these pretty quickly, though. Um, I do. like how Livia put he gradually phased. out the original material, right? It. seemed like that happened within that. first year. Um, but he was uh it also I.

also couldn't find when he stopped. paying the royalties. It was that during. the first year or two? I'm guessing when. it became cliff notes, he stopped paying. royalty. Probably right. Uh but uh. nevertheless, between the start of when. he started doing that in August of 1958. and just yet six month uh 6 months later. at the end of that year, he had sold. 58,000 copies of these book summaries. and pamphlets. And by 1964, but six. years later, he was doing he was doing. all this on the side from the Nebraska.

Book Company. He was able to quit that. job by 64. And just the 60s were a big. decade period. He quit that job in ' 64. He changed the name in the 60s from. Cliff's Notes without the apostrophe to. Cliff's Notes. Big big deal. And then he. got divorced in 1966 and got remarried. Yeah. Later on he got remarried to a. woman named Mary. Yeah. Um, and I guess. he adopted her two kids. Another thing. that shows he's a stand-up guy. Really? The only blemish on his entire lifetime.

is how he treated Jack Cole. That's. true. But did those kids biological. father get royalties. on those children? He named them Cliff's. kids. They were originally Jack Kohl's. because he stole his wife Mary. Oh man. Uh, and everyone just glosses right over. that. Yep. Should we take a break? Sure. All right. All right, we'll take an. early break here because this one's. probably a little bit shorter. And we'll. talk about um the early days of that. company right after this. [Music].

We learned so much from Josh. and stuff. [Music]. So, we should say despite um legendarily. reading five books a week, uh Hilligas. didn't write any of the Cliff's notes. He was more like the business guy. He he. had he had the idea you would put in.

scare quotes and he was running the. whole operation. He had the vision for. it, right? So he hired other people and. initially he hired literature teachers. like hardcore. like like hardcore like they have crew. cuts and wear like army boots and stuff. like that kind of lit teacher. Yeah. But. he realized something very quickly that. I'm sure developed a hardcore lit. teacher who's been teaching the same. books, been teaching a Scarlet Letter. for I think we should not mention a. single other book besides a Scarlet.

Letter in this episode. What do you. think? Agreed. All right, let's give it. a shot. Uh these these hardcore lit. teachers who have been teaching a. Scarlet Letter, the Scarlet Letter, sorry, for 20 years. Technically, I just. named another book, Chuck. Yeah, for 20. years. These people know too much. they. understand the book too well. They know. all the details that they just get mired. down when they're writing a synopsis or. something. It's just too intense for the. audience, which is um high school and. college readers, usually undergrad.

readers. Yeah. He was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, pump your brakes. I'm trying to. sell these to lazy kids." Exactly. Like, broad overview, please. Uh he ended up. with grad students mainly saying that. they did the best work, which makes. sense. Sure. They work for free, too. That's right. Uh, but we mentioned the. iconic yellow and black design. That was. something Cliff thought of uh uh. himself. Um, I remember the mountain cliffs even. being on the additions I had when I was,

you know, a student in the 80s. I don't. think they have that anymore, but they. have these yellow and black stripes that. just it it looks I mean, it's a genius. branding move just to do that simple. little thing because Cliff's notes were. so identifiable. Yeah. from from across. a bookstore the night before a test or. something, you could zoom over to that. that uh spinning rack of yellow and. black pamphlets. Yeah. They would you'd. walk in the bookstore and they'd call to. you, "Don't bother. Come by me.".

Exactly. Um, so one of the big things, I. didn't know this, but one of the big. reasons Cliffnotes became the brand that. it is today, which is to say iconic, um, is because they advertised a lot in the. 60s, and they very wisely went to where. their readership was. They advertised in. 17, they advertised in Playboy. They. advertised in um, well, the Scholastic. Journal. I don't know how much of a. return on investment they got on that, but they also advertised in college. newspapers. Bingo. Yeah. And so, like,

if you're if you're going to high. schoolers and college kids and saying, "Hey, we have something that you it's. it's going to keep you from having to. read a Scarlet Letter, the Scarlet. Letter. Um, like, don't you want that?". And they say, "Yes, I want that so bad.". Like, it just it just rooted that. business and simultaneously made it take. off like a rocket. That's right. And you. would open up the Scarlet Letter Cliff's. notes and it would say the letter is a. the end. That's why I keep calling it a.

scarlet letter. Yeah, probably because. it is it is literally a. for awesome. No, not quite. Uh, one thing Cliff had. in his corner was uh, all his work for. the Nebraska Book Company and being a. traveling salesperson and all these. relationships he had with bookstores. because he owned the market for this. Uh, 80% of the market for guides to. literature uh, belonged to Cliff because. that was just it. I I mean I think um I.

think for a long time I mean competitors. would come along and we'll talk about. that but I think he had a number of. years maybe even decades where everyone. was just like well no there's there's. already cliff notes like why even bother. he owns it right? Uh that wasn't enough. to keep people from from coming along as. competitors but it does seem like they. really didn't start to emerge until much. much later in history. Yeah. like like. decades and decades on. Yeah, for sure.

One of the things that um Cliff Notes. have long been criticized for though is. like they write the they write the the. book on the Scarlet Letter and that's. that like like what you are reading. could have been written by a grad. student in 1968. Yeah. Even though you. just bought this thing like last week. Um that's not the case any longer. it. it's changed hands and as it's changed. hands several times they've definitely. been dusted off and brushed up and all.

those idioms. Um but for a very long. time it was like this is really. oldfashioned stuff. Yeah. Especially. like the language they use, the points. they're making. Um a lot of one of the. things that Cliffnotes um was known for. is putting works of literature, specifically the Scarlet Letter into a. historical context. And that can change. as people understand history more. But. if you don't go update it, it's the. understanding of it in 1968.

Yeah, for sure. Uh, you know, we. mentioned the 60s. You just mentioned '. 68 for crying out loud. Yeah. Uh, being. a kind of a big decade for the business, it was toward the end of that decade. that things got a little rocky. Uh it. was around 1969 that a couple of things. happened to um sort of uh dampen the. business I guess a little bit. Uh and. this is something I didn't know but. apparently um starting in 1969 and. through the first you know bit of the. 70s the classics people are like hey all.

these new teachers came along and like. hey we don't need to read the Scarlet. Letter anymore. We're going to read. another unnamed book that's a little. more current. Mhm. And so the classics. kind of fell off a little bit. And. apparently a lot of high schools and. colleges started the pass fail thing. So. a kid wasn't as incentivized to to ace a. test. Um they were just incentivized to. pass a test. So they're like, I don't. even need the cliff notes. I can just. kind of fake my way through and pass. this thing. Right. As a result, uh they. dropped about a million bucks a year in.

sales uh up until like the mid70s when. they were like, "Oh my god, what were we. thinking? We got to put the Scarlet. Letter back on the reading list and we. have to grade these kids according to. their grade. This past fail thing is not. doing anyone any favors. It's chaos. It's chaos. Yeah. Not only did they drop. a million in sales, they dropped a. million units in the mid I thought that. was sales. No. Like the number of sales. that they made dropped from 2.8 million. to 1.8 million. Oh, I was I was pretty.

sure that was dollars, but and I'm sure. if you're positive that it's units, we'll move on. 78% positive. Oh, okay. Well, that. tracks because I was 22% positive. Okay, good. Um, yeah. And Cliff Hilligas was. like, "You hippies, right, for that huge. loss in sales for the mid70s." Yeah. Um, so there was another stumble that they. made Cliff's cassettes, which was a good. idea if you ask me. Totally. It was. Cliff's notes but on in a cassette. version that kids could pop into their.

Walkman and walk around listening to. want to be lazier. Yeah, exactly. You. don't even have to walk around. You can. lay there and listen to this stuff with. your eyes closed and your hands soaking. in Paul Malib. If you don't want to read. the Scarlet Letter and you don't want to. read the 47page summary, how about you. just pop in that cassette and lay on. your bed and smoke some grass? Yeah. and. listen to Edner tell you what the. Scarlet Letter means. Oh boy. Was that planned or did you just.

come up with that? I just came up with. that. Oh, that's so great. Uh, this was. only about a six-month thing. It did not. go over well despite being a pretty good. idea. That got me thinking about just. audio books or books on tape and when. that was a thing. Uh, apparently that. started in 1932. Oh, yeah. Uh, yeah. The. American Foundation for the Blind opened. up a recording studio. So, it was a. thing, but I feel like it didn't really. take off until much much much later. Until The Walkman. Did you have a. Walkman, by the way? Uh, yeah, of course.

I did. Nice. I did, too. I associate it. specifically with my cassette of Huey. Lewis in the News Sports. One of the great records of all time. Yeah, it is really good. I don't think I. ever had a Disc Man. I didn't either. Uh, I think I went straight from. Walkman to Geez. I guess iPod as far as. walking around. Oh, yeah. I never had an. iPod. I went from Walkman to iPhone, I.

guess. I had the first iPod. Wow. So, yeah, I had the first, not the, you know, not Steve Jobs's iPod, but, you know, the first the first edition. I. still have it. It still works. Oh, do. you really? Wow, that's really saying. something. Yeah, I put pictures of it on. my Instagram not too long ago actually. cuz I found it, charged it, and I just. put up the opening screen cuz it, you. know, the first Walkman had everything. in alphabetical order just on the screen. when you opened it. Yeah. And boy, it. was uh eight eight or nine bands locked.

in time from uh I guess like 2000 or. something, whatever that was. That's. awesome. Yeah, I didn't have one of. those. I'm sorry. I'm going to get you a. maybe a Nano. No need. Those things were. tiny though. They were like the size of. a a thumb of steak. Yeah. Or a square of. chocolate actually. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Uh we'll keep going. Right. Yeah. I mentioned uh Hilligrass was a true. corn husker. He kept that company in. Nebraska. He felt very strongly about.

that and donated 10% of its profits to. Nebraska organizations. Uh was a big. curator of the arts. So, the Museum of. Nebraska Art was a big one that uh. benefited from his stealing that idea. from Cole. And they have, if you've ever. looked up like, "Hey, what does this guy. look like anyway?" you might see a. bronze statue of him. And that is from. that Museum of Nebraska Art. Yeah, he's. standing up in some bushes like a creep. with a book open. [Laughter].

What else? What happened in 1983? He. this is this I think this also kind of. puts a certain like it paints a picture. of this guy. That's what I'm trying to. say. Um at age 65 on the dot he retires. Okay. Yeah. Like that's just the kind of. guy he was. But he didn't actually. retire. He just stepped down from. company president to this the head of. the board of directors. Yeah. And he. still went into the office every day. Yeah. And he instead of calling him Mr.

Hilligas. They said, "You can call me. Cliff." Right. He would show up in like. a smoking jacket and ascot after he. retired. Exactly. But he still called. the shots, right? But but that's just I. mean I can totally because don't forget. he was trained in geology, ma math, physics. Like he had a certain way of. looking at things for sure. Yeah. Uh. that a couple years later in 1985 there. was a Chicago Tribune article. Um so. this is mid80s. They had a staff of. about 25 people and they had published. 225 guide books or book guides rather um.

60 million copies in circulation and yes. I nailed it. 39 countries in. circulation. Very nice. Uh and. apparently there were some countries. that used them to help teach uh American. English in different countries. Sure. Especially the English used by Americans. in 1968. Uh that's right. the by the end of the. 80s they were taking in about 11 million. bucks a year which is pretty good. scratch. It's about 28 today. 28 million. Yeah, that's even better.

scratch. Uh and by the end of the. millennium in 1999. uh at the age of 81, uh he sold it off. He was like, "All. right, I'm 81. I want to live out my. remaining years as a super rich guy and. not just a medium rich guy." So, he sold. to IDG Books, uh, who was the publisher. of the Four Dummies Guides that everyone. knows, and he sold for only 14 million, which kind of surprises me. Fully. retired and sadly died a couple of years.

later at 83 from complications of. stroke. I've always wondered what that. is, like guys in particular retiring and. then dying like very soon after that. It's kind of a thing. And even if you. don't die, you can like a lot of people. just get like really sick for a while. afterward. And I' I don't know if it's. like you you've been running on. adrenaline the last five years or what. the deal is, but it's like when you when. you finally your body finally resets. like I don't have to go to work anymore. Something happens to you. Are you saying.

this personally to me so I Yep. can. consider this as I wait my future. Thank. you for retiring. Chuck. Uh, it was bought and sold a few more. times though. In 2001, John Wy and Sons. uh bought the brand. Um, they changed. the name this time. This is when they. squashed it together as Cliff's Notes. with a capital N. Yeah. Uh, then uh, Hton Mifflin Hardcourt bought it in 2012. and then Course Hero bought it in 21. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense, too.

Course Hero is a online tutor. essentially. They have courses and. they're heroes for it. Uh and one final thing before we take. the break is uh it is I think the New. York Times and the early as uh did a. report and they found that it's not just. lazy high school kids that are buying. these books. They found out it's lazy. adults in book clubs that just want to. they want to participate in a book club. but they maybe uh don't have the time to. read the Scarlet Letter. So they'll get. the cliff's notes so they can go and.

have some wine and talk about the a. bridge version. Right. And you can tell. the ones that read the cliff notes of. the Scarlet Letter because they're the. ones who thought it was really good. That's right. And it's also the the. yellow and black is sticking out from. their uh fanny pack. Right. They have a. little piece of it in their teeth. Right. Uh all right. Shall we take our. second break? Yes. All right. We'll be. back and pick up on where we are today. with Cliff and his notes. [Music].

We learned so much. [Music]. from stuff you should know. All right, as promised, we're going to. talk about Cliff's notes today. Uh, you. can still buy these pamphlets. Like I. said, I looked up online. Uh, if you. want to buy the Scarlet Letter and hold. it in your hand, I think it was $8.99. somewhere. a little less, but they're.

kind of in that ballpark. Aren't they. used, though? They're not They're not. newly printed. I don't know. I mean, they sell them on. Amazon that still could be used, I. guess. That Well, that was my take that. they're used, but who knows? Maybe. I do. know that their main source of income. now is uh the website that offers most. of this stuff for free, which is weird. that they also have a a fee model. attached. Yeah. So, you can subscribe to.

Cliff's Notes uh today for I think $9 a. month or 36 bucks a year and you get all. of the free stuff, but you can also. download it as a PDF. So, if you um. learn better by like reading in on print. or on paper, you would need to do that. But they also have other stuff, too. There's like much more in-depth guides. and analysis and stuff like that behind. their payw wall. So, it's not like. you're just a total sucker for paying.

for free Cliff's notes because they have. a bunch of stuff that's not just free. Yeah. And I got we're not going to go. through this list, but um Livia was kind. enough I think cuz she needed to fulfill. a word count to list out what you get in. the actual um free version of let's say. the Scarlet Letter. Mhm. Uh and my take. is that you get a a pretty good like. summary and chapter by chapter thing and. character analysis and all that stuff, but it's just even a lesser version than. the more robust uh paid monthly, right?

And I mean it's even more it's like. there's pretty good detail in it. Like. for their um their analysis of the. Scarlet Letter, they talk about how the. Scarlet Letter fits into dystopian. fiction in general. Yeah. Or how um the. how big brother in the Scarlet Letter. can be compared to Hitler or Stalin. Yeah. Or when Hester Prin develops news. speak, what all that means. Yeah. Exactly. And a biography of George. Orwell, the writer of the Scarlet.

Letter. That's right. Yeah. That there's. a bunch of stuff. I went in and poked. around and it is a lot of free stuff. Like you could write. numerous really good slam dunk papers on. the Scarlet Letter just from the the. free stuff that they have available. So, I'm a little curious too what their. business model is because it doesn't. really make sense to me unless it's a. portal to Course Hero. Now that I think. about it, I'll bet it is. I'll bet they.

get you with the free stuff and then. they get you into course hero and they. turn you upside down and shake you by. your ankles until all the change falls. out of your pockets. They're like, "You. want to be a better student for nine. bucks a month?" Yeah. Uh so we should. talk a little bit more about the. elephant in the room, which is that this. is just a way for kids to cheat. Um I. mean the other elephant is we haven't. discussed our own cliff notes uh Cliff's. notes use. Uh I will volunteer my own. You don't have to answer. I've never. used them. Um okay. Well, go ahead and. just make me look bad right before I say.

that I leaned on them. No, worse than. that, I never I I didn't even bother to. use the cliff's notes. I didn't read the. material either. Oh, I was just a really. really lame high school student in high. school. I was not good at all. I didn't. blossom until college. Okay. I I do. remember that now, but you were setting. me up to look like a jump. No, I swooped. in and saved you. Thank you. Like Hester. Print did in the Scarlet Letter. That's. right. Uh, I did use Cliff's notes. Um, not exclusively. I was always a.

believer, and this is not right, kids, of I love to read. I was an English. major for for heaven's sake. I know. So, I love to read, but um I wanted to read. what I wanted to read, right? Uh Emily. still um sort of uh challenges me not on. just reading, but like Chuck only does. what he wants to do, that kind of thing. That's not the best trade. everybody, you should not be like Chuck. Uh, but I. wanted to read what I wanted to read. I.

didn't want to read the Scarlet Letter. So, I got the Cliff's notes. Um, and you. know, probably peruse The Scarlet. Letter. The books that I was like, I. totally want to read that. Um, I can't. think of another book title like The. Scarlet Letter. Yeah, I would read that. Scarlet Letter. I wouldn't read the one. they assigned to me. So, I did use. Cliff's Notes. I did that was in high. school. did not use them in college as. an English major because I felt like it. was time to get a little more serious. and I chose that major willingly. So, I. should probably do the work, right? And.

that was the only work in college I. really really enjoyed was reading and. writing. So, I didn't use them in. college. But, uh all that to say, the. elephant in the room is like, is this. just for lazy kids? And you mentioned. that Hilligas was like no, but how would. he enforce that or encourage that rather. with a stern note? Yeah. Yeah. At the. beginning of every copy of Cliff's. notes, he had a little note. He was his. sign signature was next to it, too. He. said that a thorough appreciation of. literature allows no shortcuts. And.

students who use them to avoid um. reading the actual material or having to. go into class for um discussion groups. about the the material are denying. themselves the very education that they. are presumably giving their most vital. years to achieve. And I feel like he he. took a bit of an approach, a utopian. approach to how he viewed his customers, but surely there was some out there. I. do wonder if there is a single.

Cliffnotes buyer who read that note and. was like, you know what? I'm going to. change my ways. I'm I'm abusing these. things. I doubt it. But I'm sure there. were students like I did at times where. a book was a little over their head and. they used the cliff notes as intended to. to help with the book. I saw also that. some teachers did that. They actually. suggested Cliff's notes for some. students which meant that your teacher. thought you were a dipstick. Well, teachers also uh were on record as.

using it for lesson planning sometimes. because they didn't want to read the. Scarlet Letter either. That's really. hilarious. That's so Mrs. KBApple. It totally is. Um, and then a lot of. them actually use Cliff's notes for the. opposite reasons. They would they would. know like if like if you're a high. school English teacher, there's a. handful of the scarlet letters that. you've assigned during the year and you. assign the same scarlet letters over and. over again year after year. So, you.

probably know the cliff's notes on those. things by heart. So you can very easily. pick out when somebody is not only using. the the Cliff's notes, but way worse. than that is actually plagiarizing the. Cliff's notes. That is laziest thing you. could possibly do prior to Chad GPT. writing your your paper for you. Yeah, this is coming from two two Gen Xers and. we wrote the book on how to get away. with lazy. Yeah, I didn't even read the. material or the cliff's notes. That's.

pretty lazy. Yeah. Uh certain. universities took charge. Uh in 1997, Villanova pulled Cliff's notes from. their college bookstore. Um other. bookstores maybe didn't sell them, but. they're the only one that Libby could. find at least that actually pulled them. off the shelves. Yeah. They they very. famously sent in a hit squad that ended. up trashing the bookstore and tore up. all of the Cliff's notes. And uh when. they left, they threw flashbang grenades. into the bookstore as they took off and. yelled, "Hut hut, hut." Mhm. Uh Cliff.

did not like this and they took out a. full page ad. I guess he was passed away. by this point, but the the company. didn't like this, right? And they took. an ad in the Villanova student. newspaper, called it censorship, and the. college was like, "They can still buy. these things anywhere. This is sort of a. symbolic gesture. Calm down." Yeah. Oh, we we um kind of touched on and we. didn't say it like overtly, but there. there were a lot of teachers out there. who were okay with Cliff's notes and. some who even encouraged their use. um. that seems to have come along like a.

generation after Cliff's notes came out, which is not coincidental because a lot. of those people who grew up to be. English teachers and English professors. used Cliff's notes when they went. through school themselves. So, at the. very least, they had a certain fondness. of it and at best they were like, "This. is actually super helpful as a reference. material." Yeah, for sure. Uh, and if. you have a set of Cliff's notes that you. have read recently, uh, from later in. the company's, um, story, you're like, "Hey, man, I didn't see any, uh, note.

from Cliff saying, "These aren't. shortcuts. PS, enjoy the shortcut." Uh, this didn't have anything in it. I think. the the minute he sold that company, they were like, "Let's get rid of that. note." It's a real drag. Yeah, it's a. real drag. And not only that, let like. our advertising should actively. encourage the fact that this is a. shortcut. Yeah, that's pretty much what. they did. Let's own it. Yeah. And they. did own it. Um I think they kind of. walked it back a little bit. So there's. like a a watered down version of his.

note essentially saying the same thing, but they definitely did. They said the. the um the unspoken part out loud, I. guess, is how they put it. Yeah, for. sure. Um, is this here's the big. question though, and I'm glad Olivia. posed this question. Like, is it bad to. use Cliff's notes? Uh, and the very idea. of. like, do kids need to read the Scarlet. Letter? Uh, or or is the only reason. they're reading the Scarlet Letter to.

just not not look like a dipstick when. someone brings up the Scarlet Letter? Like, do you just need to be acquainted. with this stuff as a cultural touch. point in life or to get a Jeopardy. answer correct or I'm sorry, Jeopardy. clue correct. Nice catch, man. We almost got our membership. revoked. Uh, and you know, this is me. speaking. I think yeah, like you should. read these books. And a lot of people. are on record saying, "Yeah, I mean, not. necessarily just a scarlet letter, but.

um it's I believe uh there's a. literature scholar from the University. of Kentucky uh named Allan Nadell that. calls it the labor of witnessing like to. to actually read the thing is the thing. It's not reading the Wikipedia." Uh I. think there was she found a Redditor um. East TX that said it's like reading the. Wikipedia on Beethoven's ninth but not. listening to it. There's something about. experiencing the thing that is different. and valuable. Yeah. Yeah. And reading.

all this, Chuck, made me realize how. much I I missed out by not reading all. those books in high school. You still. can, buddy. Right. So, I went on a. couple of like I searched books you. should read before you die. And that. brought up numerous lists and there's. some that appear on all of the lists and. I'm still searching for which the. Scarlet Letter I'm going to read, right? But single book. Yeah, if you have any. recommendations for one to start with, um, let me know. Well, you know what. would be fun is, uh, our mutual friend.

Joey Sara, um, of the Henry Clay people who are. friends who wrote the and performed the. theme song to our television show and. still a good friend. I'm going to see. he's going to Glen Gary with me this. weekend. Very nice. He is a Moby Dick. afficionado and collects copies and. versions of that and he said that is the. best book of all time. He said it's not. my favorite book. He said, "It's the. best book." You mean The Scarlet Letter, the one with the Great White Whale? Oh, that's right. I got the name wrong. So,

sorry. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I I I saw. that one. I was like, I don't know. I. read It might be fun if we both read. that. Okay. I have a feeling you're. going to be like, "You're still reading. that two years from now?" But Well, let's let's put it this way. Joey gave. me a copy probably two years ago, and it. sits untouched on my shelf. All right. you give me a two-year head start and. then you start and we'll finish at the. same time and talk about it. I got to. put down this Mike Campbell book of Tom. Petty and the Heartbreakers and the RM. one before that and the Mudhoney one.

before that. All I read is these rock. books. I need to put them all away. And. by the way, those are all called The. Scarlet Letter, right? My story and Tom. Petty and the Heartbreakers, right? And. also, Chuck, I mean, if rock and roll. rots your brain, reading about rock and. roll really does. Should we mention one more uh point that. teachers make or or I'm sorry that uh. problem with study guides? Um some. people are like, "Hey, um these study. guides just give you one lens to look.

through to view this thing." Um and what. you need to do is read the book and go. to a class and hear it from a teacher. But some people say, "Yeah, but that. teacher is just looking at it through. their lens." Right? I disagree as an. English major in my classes. the teacher. would present perhaps their analysis and. then say this is what other people think. and what do you think right and you have. to have read the cliff's notes to say. what you think. uh what else you want to talk about any. of these parodies or spin-offs or. competitors yeah I mean we can just.

mention kind of quickly uh Spark Notes. became the biggest competitor in like. 1999. uh there's one called Schmoop founded in. 2008 that became a pretty good. competitor That's pretty good. I went. and and read some of their stuff. It's. much more loosely written, like what's. up with yada yada yada. Oh, really? What's up with that letter A? Interesting. Uh, I do want to mention. this one spoof at least. Thug notes. Yeah, it's great. Did you watch any of. these? Uhhuh. I watched the one on Dr.

Jackekal and Mr. High. Yeah, I think you. mean the Scarlet Letter. Oh, man. I got. it, too. We both went down. Uh, thug notes on talking about the. movie. Oh, right, right, right. It's a. YouTube series from comedian Greg. Edwards. Uh, he plays a character, a PhD. named Sparky Sweets who summarizes a. commentary on a hundred different books. Um, they're generally about 5 minutes. long and it's a comedy thing. Um, you. know, he it's Thug Notes. He does. African-American vernacular and uh.

breaks down these books in a fun way, in. a very quick way, but he's got 3.14. million subs. And if you and if you. watch one of these like you did, you. will soon learn like it's a joke, but. he's laying down some real truth on some. of these as well. Oh yeah. Like when you. finish watching one of these thug notes, like you understand what that book was. about like fully like he does a great. job with it. But yeah, there's just this. whole um stickick to it that's pretty. awesome, too. Yeah, I watched a few of. them, but the one on the Scarlet Letter.

by George Orwell, uh, at the end he in. the analysis, he explains, um, he talks. about censorship and book burning and. Stalinism and double talk and all that. stuff in a very fun way. And I can only. think that like there might be young. students that identify with with uh, Greg Edwards and what he's doing that it. might provide a little real insight and. inspiration. I hope so. Even though it's. just a joke. Did you say that the name. Did you say the name of his character on.

Thug Notes? I did. I love it. I guess. that's about it, huh? That's all I got. on Cliff's Notes. Okay. I think, man, hats off to us. Hats off to Olivia. Hats. off to Mental Floss. Hats off to Sparky. Sweets PhD. Um, we made it through. Cliff's notes. Hats off to Nathaniel. Hawthorne. Yeah. And Hester Prin, too. Yeah. Uh, let's see. Since we took our. hat off to Hester Prin, of course, that. means it's time for listener mail.

Uh, hey guys, this is about Broadway. Uh, my name's Reagan. I've been a. listener for 10 years. Uh, my husband. Paul and I love to listen to you guys. while we cook dinner and we listen to. reruns on long car trips. Uh, I'm. writing in because Broadway uh, Broadway. episode because I am a theatrical. costume designer and I wanted to offer. some more insight about previews that. you guys were discussing. Uh, previews. have a cool function where they are. actually used by the production team to. keep changing, like Josh said, and. fine-tuning a show based on audience. feedback. Especially on a brand new.

show, new lines and music may even be. written and added during the process. Uh, changes can also include reststaging. and cutting or adding technical elements. like costumes or props. However, uh, Chuck was right and that toward the end. of previews, the show will be frozen by. the director, which means no further. changes are allowed to be made. And it's. after that time that critics will be. invited to attend uh during previews. after they're frozen before opening. night. Got it. So that totally clears it. up. Uh thanks for doing such a great job.

covering Broadway. Really touched me to. hear about the theater world on my. favorite podcast cuz I listen to you. guys almost daily in the costume shop. And that is from Reagan Mccay, interim. costume shop manager at the Roundhouse. Theater. Wow, that's awesome. I think we. talked about the Roundhouse Theater, didn't we? It sounds familiar. I hope we. did. That's Thank you very much, Reagan. We love it when we hear from experts in. the field about an episode we talked. about, especially when they say we got. it right. Uh, and if you want to be like. Reagan and send us an email where you're. like, "Hey, I know what I'm talking.

about and you guys did a good job. We. love that kind of thing." You can send. it to stuffodcast@. [Music]. iheartradio.com. Stuff you should know. is a production of iHeart Radio. For. more podcasts of iHeart Radio, visit the. iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or. wherever you listen to your favorite. shows. [Music].