The Call of the Void: Don’t Pick Up! | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Ben's here. too and that makes this a good old. rousing edition of stuff you should know. philosophy now. Edition yeah I mean I apologize to Josh. offier I might as well say it now uh I. may be a little rough in this one cuz I.

my brain breaks a little bit when we. have these philosophy uh subjects mhm. and even though I made an A and the only. philosophy class I took in college which. I've said before it's only because I was. so frustrated by it I worked really. really hard to try and understand it and. ended up getting an A but it breaks my. brain a lot of. times now okay I got you boy you didn't. end that sentence under normal. circumstances.

uh but good for you for powering through. that that uh that class and not just. being like oh well I guess I'll take a. zero in this one again or drop it in. that first week I did a lot of that I. did that once in astronomy I was like uh. wait why are you using like the Greek. symbol for Epsilon and sigma in this. like I thought we were going to talk. about Mars and stuff and no so I got rid. of that really quick yeah good good job. all right so I kind kind of I think have.

a bit of a grasp on the um the. philosophy of it what I had trouble with. was some of the studies like the actual. research on it so we'll just muddle. through it'll be fun sometimes those are. our most enjoyable episodes sometimes. they're are worst let's find out which. way this one goes yeah uh what we're. talk talking about is something we've. talked about on the show before I wish I. could remember which episode uh but. we've definitely talked about the call. of the Void what what the French call. Lael.

uh or high place phenomenon and that is. the idea that um and it's not just the. desire to maybe hurl your yourself off. the top of a building if you're standing. or a bridge if you're standing at top a. high structure that's the famous it can. also mean yeah that's the one we're. going to concentrate on but it can also. mean and I know this is what we talked. about before because I talked about like. grabbing the cop's gun or driving into. oncoming traffic right uh that very.

amazing scene from Christopher Walkin. and Annie Hall where he's talking about. you know swerving into oncoming traffic. is so good uh and they smash cut you. know to him driving Woody Woody and. Annie home it's just one of the great. movie jokes but you know that's the idea. is this weird urge I know it was on. episode of Louie as well and I'm trying. to think if I could think of any more. cancelled filmmakers right exactly. Romany did a short on it once uh but you.

know it was in both of those things uh. and yeah it's this this weird desire to. be like standing at top of a tall. structure and be like I could just jump. right now and that and see what's out. there yeah so that's a I think that's. the most common phenomenon of the call. of the Void just it occurring to you. that you could do this it can get worse. though too because some people not only. experience that notion occurring to them. they experienced something akin to an. urge so much so that sometimes people. will like push themselves away from The.

Edge they they might like go back into. whatever stairwell they just came out of. because they don't want to accidentally. or inadvertently don't trust themselves. not to follow that urge that's when it. gets really scary and if you think about. it we humans have a real tendency. towards self-preservation like we fight. to live sometimes to to degrees that. surprise ourselves afterward you know so. that makes the call of the Void. completely nonsensical it makes zero.

sense whatsoever that you would have an. urge to just end it all for no reason be. just because it's there just because. there's a huge void there jumping into. it because it occurred to you so the. fact that this is a fairly common. phenomenon it it Bears investigating and. so psychologists have gotten into it. philosophers have gotten into it like. you said Woody Allen's gotten into it um. it's a it's it's a thing for sure and I. love the fact that it's a mystery. because no one's actually successfully.

explained it and um I don't know if we. ever will and for my money I don't. really want to what understand it yes. because I throw I cast my a lot with the. philosophers I think kard and sart. nailed it um but it's still I mean you. don't prove things with philosophy it's. just like what about this. yeah yeah I mean we'll get to statistics. and how they align with uh you know. legitimate suicidal ID.

uh later probably in the last part but. uh just among the two of us and I said. this before with the when we talked. about it before but I have felt the call. of the Void many many times and for me. it's not I could just end it all but. it's more. like uh it's hard to and maybe that's. one of the frustrating things it's. really hard to explain what's going. through my head it's it's sort of like. uh no one can stop me from doing this.

mhm and I could uh I could know what. that feels like to fall um part of it is. I had a very tragically had a friend. fall off a building to his death and oh. yeah so there there's a little bit of. that like I I would want to know what. Aaron felt like and like how scary that. was as a as an empathetic thing so. there's a lot of things in my head none. of that explains why I want to grab the. cops guns I was about to ask that.

uh I've never really felt the driving. into the other lane thing but um I just. I don't know it's it's really. fascinating to have these thoughts pop. into your head when normally you know. you're the kind of person that would. never entertain anything like that yeah. so you just set a mouthful essentially. the call of the Void can be can can come. from it can come out of nowhere which. makes it an intrusive thought in a lot. of situations other times it can be. triggered by the situation like you're. not going to think about driving into. oncoming traffic while you're you know. in your chemistry class like it's while.

you're driving right so there's some. that are triggered by circumstances and. then you also said that you're like. you're basically you're horrified by the. idea you're even having this thought. it's just totally out of character for. you so you put all that together you. have what essentially is the call of the. void and I say we go up to the tea and. put the little baseball or whiffle ball. on top of the tea and knock it out of. the park with the philosophers. first all right um I will say this that.

uh the ker guard stuff really spoke to. me me too um we're talking about Danish. philosopher uh Surin I guess I don't. know what the the null sign means so. it's like an uml okay so Sirin basically. I guess I believe so um he talked about. the this idea that the call of void call. of the Void illustrates um anxiety and. in his case and this is the part that. really spoke to me he argued that and I. think he's dead right actually is that.

fear is when outside forces are scaring. you something that could harm you from. the outside anxiety is when that's. turned Inward and that's emerging from. your the threat is coming from within. they're inside the house basically and. that house is your brain right so the. freedom to the freedom of choice in life. to move about the world and to just to. choose what you do from moment to moment. you're constantly making choices uh. without knowing necessarily what the. right thing to do was so an an anxiety. can come from what he called the.

dizziness of freedom of that freedom. specifically yeah exactly and just the. basis of anxiety is having those choices. not knowing what's right like you said. and that because our lives are filled. from moment to moment with making a. choice not making a choice which still. is a choice just ask Getty Lee um that. of course it's going to create anxiety. which means anxiety is The Human. Condition it's almost the basis of The. Human Condition is what he was saying so. he kind of used that or he used the call. of the void to kind of demonstrate that.

um essentially saying that you when. you're up there on a precipice you're. aware that you have the choice to just. throw yourself over and just realizing. that that is a choice of that you can. make right then like you said no one's. going to stop you um having that freedom. is is just it's too much we like to we. like to think that you know we don't. have choices that we have metal we have.

a self-preservation drive we have all. this stuff that would prevent us from. even ever considering that and yet. whenever we experience the call of the. Void it is by definition experience. experiencing that urge like the the. realization that we can choose that and. that's what KAG guard kind of kicked the. whole thing off with I think in the. 1850s when he when he used that to. illustrate anxiety in humans can we have. a quick side chat yeah what do they call. them not. diversions uh uh tangents yeah yeah one.

of our tangents uh about Rush okay did. you hear me very quickly say Neil per no. I didn't when you said Getty Lee okay. well Neil per wrote that oh okay so I. just quickly pointed that out but that's. not what I was trying to point out okay. on that record and I remember this. specifically my brother and I were. listening to and looking over that LP. which you do when what is that Spirit of. Radio uh yeah on the record is the lyric. um and if you choose not to.

decide well first of all if you're not a. rush fan the lyric that they recorded. was if you choose not to decide you. still have made a choice um I feel like. you have to say it like Getty Lee still. I made a choice beautiful uh so they uh. recorded it like that uh Neil per was. their Lyricist but on the record my. brother and I noticed it says if you. choose not to decide you cannot have. made a choice oh well they got that. wrong they it was like on the album and. he my brother looked at me and laughed. and like mimicked Getty Lee like.

Crossing it out with the pencil like. while Neil per wasn't looking and that. has just always stood out to me joke. anyway did Neil per write most of their. lyrics or was it just yeah he was their. Lyricist I didn't know that okay isn't. that crazy drummer but yeah he he got. that wrong big. time uh so back to it um from kirkgard. along those same lines um you talked. about is it sart that's what I've always. said yeah he doesn't care he's dead Je. Paul sart S R T re another philosopher.

um he talked about that as the vertigo. of possibility um basically the same. idea is kard with with of like a literal. dizziness of possibilities and um he he. kind of leaned more into the you know. the the the freedom about questions of. our human experience and he went down a. different road than kard ultimately did. but they both sort of referred to it as. a literal dizziness yeah for sure. because a lot of people do experience.

something in kind of vertigo when. they're looking down from a high place. even if they're not afraid of heights. right oh I I for sure do yeah so um it. does make sense that they would both use. that but s was definitely doing a big. yes and to kir guard and I think he even. calls out kir guard in the section of. being in nothingness right but his whole. Jam that he kind of took the the point. that he took it to was not only are you. realizing like you have this Freedom of. Choice you also realize that your future. self has that same freedom of choice and.

you the one who's making this choice. right now not to leap over this. precipice For No Good Reason has zero. control over whether you in the future. future you is going to make that same. choice or not and that is a reason to be. terrified of being alive essentially is. what sart said right yeah I mean not not. quite Multiverse stuff but it's sort of. along those same lines like almost. future uh future Multiverse maybe yeah.

but what he was saying also is a lot. like kagar like life is made up of. choices moment to moment to moment and. his whole thing is like there's no solid. self there's no there's no you that. exists you know when you're born or even. after you develop a little bit to the. time you die you are constantly you have. to constantly keep the self going by. making essentially the same decisions. over and over again and if you don't. have the same experience say like uh. Terror when you're up on a precipice and.

decide not to jump if the next time. you're up there and you're not terrified. you feel like what's it like to fly you. you might make the same decision even. though it's out of character with how. you were before that the self is that. fluid essentially is what he was saying. yeah and he he sort of related that to. gambling or The Gambler who um you know. like an addictive Gambler who quits. gambling and you know let's say years. later they walk by a gambling table and. instead of seeing the gambling table and. immediately thinking like God that's the.

worst thing that ever happened to me um. the reaction is well that was sort of a. a memory of a feeling that I had and uh. in order to get back that true feeling. of I shouldn't do this I can only do. that by doing it again uh it's sort of. like a not quite like rosecolor glasses. but I think everyone sort of had that. same feeling about an ex before years. later where you're like you know what. was so bad about that like should I. should I give them a call when in fact.

it was a terrible situation and like to. to give them the call and trying I mean. John cusak made a whole movie about it. uh to go back to and revisit like the. ex-girlfriends and it's just constantly. reminded like The Gambler would be of. like no this was a bad idea 20 years ago. it's not a good idea now still right and. the same thing holds true for like. smoking or something like that like when. you decide to quit smoking quit gambling. break up like you're in a certain. experience right then that you don't. necessarily feel or experience a year.

later so you have to remind yourself. like to make that same decision again. your future self could make a different. decision than you did right then and you. have no control over. it I know pretty awesome. right uh should we break or should we. talk about Gary Cox let's finish with. Gary Cox real quick because I like this. guy's jib the cut of his jib he's a a. British philosopher he we can pronounce. his name so that's a plus and he looks. at it more as an existentialist kind of.

thing where uh we have these. psychological. defenses that we construct against thing. but they're basically just all an. illusion it's things that we make up um. to fool ourselves into thinking we have. an instinct for self-preservation yeah. and he's saying that what kir kard and. sart are both saying is essentially that. we when we experience the call of the. void that what what's called bad faith. as far as existentialists are concerned.

anytime we dude ourselves it's a bad. faith illusion essentially um that that. all of those are are just essentially us. deluding ourselves and it's laid bare by. the call of the Void like the only. reason you're not jumping right now is. not because you have this self. preservation Instinct it's not because. you don't want to do that to your family. or anything like that it's because you. are choosing right then not to jump. that's it that's the only thing that's. preventing you from jumping right then. and that scares but Jesus out of anybody.

who has a brain in their head when they. experience the call of the Void. especially when it's accompanied by the. urge to jump not just the thought of. jumping yeah so shall we break now yes. look at that whiffle ball go we knocked. it out of the park we'll we'll come back. and we'll talk about uh these intrusive. thoughts that people are having right. after this. [Music].

all right tuck I feel like I should. start with a. confession I've been talking a lot of. Macho talk about t-balls and hitting it. out of the. park I um used to strike out at t-ball. pretty often. and they give you a lot more than just.

three strikes before they tell you to go. sit down like maybe seven eight. sometimes depending on the coach and I. would still strike out and it happened. more than. once yeah what was happening there what. was happening there is I was a terrible. t-ball player I didn't play t-ball so. you know I didn't have that experience. but you know what t-ball is right yeah. you set a ball on a te it's not moving. it's not going anywhere exactly and and. you've got a baseball bat in your. yeah I thought I'd feel better after.

admitting that I feel much worse. actually well you've told me that before. so I I I was pre I I felt bad for you. back then now it's funny have I talked. about it on the podcast or was it in. private no it was on the show but that's. okay that was years ago okay yeah we've. been doing this for 16 years it's G to. happen. what um we promis talk about intrusive. thoughts M uh and intrusive thought is. um defined basically as a as a thought.

that is not in character for you if that. you're thinking it um it's pretty. bothersome uh and it's a hard thing for. you to control and if you start really. digging in and worrying about it and. looking for meaning behind it it they. can be very very disruptive to someone's. life yeah um they're really a problem. for people who have clinical obsessive. compulsive disorder yeah the reason why. there's such a problem is I mean. intrusive thoughts can FF anybody you. don't have to have OCD the problem that.

a company's OCD is that people will try. to to find a way of coping with that. intrusive thought and the classic. example is being a germaphobe feeling. like your hands are dirty so you go wash. your hands by washing your hands you're. coping with the Sensation that your. hands are dirty you have germs on your. hands and you eleviate that by washing. your hands well if you have an intrusive. thought and the idea that your hands are. dirty is ESS constant you're going to.

spend a lot of your time washing your. hands and it's going to actually impact. Your Life That's a classic example of. somebody suffering from OCD but if you. take away the you know washing your. hands to to to alleviate that that. stress from the intrusive thought you. you have what happens to basically. anybody this thought that kind of comes. out of nowhere it's often very very. troubling there's a whole variety called. morbid obsessions which is yeah you know. I could pick up that Axe and kill my. whole family right now and then you're.

like wait a minute why am I thinking. that and you feel horrible for that even. crossing your mind because what loving. you know husband wife child would ever. think of something like that uh and you. start to go down that road and you're. too afraid to even bring it up to. anybody you don't want to be like hey I. just thought of killing all of you guys. with an axe let's talk that out so the. more you keep it to yourself and. ruminate on it the more terrifying it. becomes and that is essentially the. cycle of intrusive thoughts that can.

only be broken by essentially saying. that was an intrusive thought I accept. it was an intrusive thought I don't. actually want to kill my family with an. axe and this kind of thing happens to. everybody yeah and you know Livia. pointed out she did a great job with. this one by way she knocked the te ball. out of the. par she did uh Livia pointed out that. this has led to a lot of bad stuff um. especially with people with um OCD in. the past with like the court system and. like having children taken away or.

something because the old idea as far as. um Psychiatry is concerned or psycho. analysis is concerned was if you're. having these um. ideations uh it's it's really a. manifestation of your unconscious desire. so if you um have a thought about you. know drowning your children and then all. of a sudden you're going down this. Rabbit Hole of like oh my God how could. I think that and what is that all about. and now and then you're just really. drilling down into that because you're. horrified by it you have a an an analyst.

saying oh well that's really your. unconscious desire your honor or ladies. and gentlemen of the jury and so you get. your children taken away and now they're. saying like that's not true at all like. it it's not an unconscious desire right. it's it's someone who's horrified by. these thoughts that are obsessing about. them because they're horrified about it. exactly and I think the very fact that. you're horrified by it shows you just. how far you are from actually committing. that act yeah so yeah the idea that.

people used to get their children it. happened at least twice I could find two. cases that happened fairly recently. where um mothers in both cases confided. in either their psychiatrist or their. OBGYN and who both just turned around. and called Child Protective Services or. the cops you know um and just the idea. that they had it so backwards and that. this happens to everybody but they they. lost their kids because they sought help. for it that's just that's terrible so. I'm glad we figured out that that's not.

the case um and the fact that it can be. treated pretty easily you can even self. treat if you learn the steps to. identifying an intrusive thought saying. it to yourself is just an intrusive. thought like I said you don't want to do. this and that this happens to everybody. um if it's really bad and you feel like. you can't self treat there are. treatments you can go seek that are also. very effective one of them is um. exposure and response. prevention and one of the examples I've. seen is if you think about killing your.

family with a butcher knife your. therapist will come to your house and. give you the butcher knife and sit you. on the couch next to your family and. basically be like do you really want to. kill your family because now's your time. to do it if you want and they I've seen. that they actually will have say like a. father look at their son and be like. please don't kill me son as part of this. therapy and it works because you see. firsthand like you could do it right. then and you just you don't want to.

you're not going you're not moved to. doing that you have control over your. behavior and you see it firsthand right. there and that tends to actually help. quite a bit and so the fact that that. helps and you can self treat shows that. it is just a weird fluke of human. psychology and that it happens to. everybody including really violent. terrible stuff that you can think about. everyone it happens to. everyone yeah and if we uncomfortably. giggled during that part it it's not.

because we don't think that that must be. the hardest thing in the world would be. to sit down and have a therapy session. like that right with your family like I. can't even imagine what that's like to. to sit down and have to do something. like that so for what it costs. yeah I got a snort for that one oh wow. he sure did I don't do that much um I. guess we should talk about the study IES. uh when I say studies I mean studies.

kind of one two um there haven't been a. ton of them Olia dug up a couple um in. 2011 there were uh there was a. psychologist named Jennifer haes um from. Florida State along with her colleagues. there at Florida State uh they're the. people who coin the HPP term high places. phenomenon and they asked. 431 uh FSU students I guess yeah go. fighting El no come on n you know that. mhm yeah sure uh they asked 431 of their.

students um about their experiences with. high place phenomenon more than 30% had. experienced that urge to jump and among. those who had never experienced uh. suicidal ideation because you know when. they study something like this they're. trying to separate those things out. right of just the call of the void and. someone who who actually has thought. about taking their own lives yeah. because because Freud LED everybody down. a blind alley by basically saying oh. actually this is this is our innate.

drive to want to kill ourselves um that. that's really at play and it turned out. it's just not true at all yeah so uh. among those who had never experienced. suicidal ideation there were still. 177% who had the urge to jump at least. one time and I believe half of uh the. people who had suicidal feelings said. the same it was about the same number. right and the researchers were like this. does not quite track like I let's. reframe the question and they asked the.

same people have you ever thought about. jumping from a bridge or a building and. they're like oh yeah I've thought about. that for sure that's what I'm saying. there's a difference between just being. up there and thinking like what would. happen if I did this the thought Pops in. your head right or the urge where you. have to like push yourself away from the. balcony those are two slightly separate. experiences and the the just the thought. popping in people's heads seemed to be. the more common one so when they reframe. the question like that 74 4% of people. who had um uh gone through suicidal.

ideation said yeah I've done that 43% of. nonsuicidal ideators just say the. general population said that that. happened to them so almost half of. people walking around are like said like. yeah it's occurred to me to throw myself. off the top of a tall building when I've. been up there um and even then hes and. her colleagues were like I still think. that's a little small and they've come. up with little ways to essentially say. like the some people are forgetting that.

this actually happened to them yeah and. mine is always a thought it's never a. true urge um but they you know after. this study one of the things that they. talked about was sort of like what you. said with Freud uh where they said like. no this is not a a a manifestation of. the death Drive of the the urge to take. your own life uh and they looked at. actual you know real cases of suicide. they looked at previous research and and. all the data and their argument was you. know when someone takes their own life.

it's rarely a a truly truly impulsive. act right um it's usually something that. is uh happened over time and uh and it's. and it's a big sort of accumulation of. these. ideations um and while the exact moment. may have some impulsivity to it it's. rarely just a completely impulsive act. right and usually it's um characterized. by resolution more than impulsiveness. too. this is something I'm going to do yes.

exactly um so uh they basically said. okay Freud Freud was totally wrong but. still we think that some people don't. really remember that this happened we. think that more people than say 43% of. the population have experienced this um. and one of the explanations they had was. that um oh one thing we left out they. found a huge correlation between people. who experience anxiety and people who um. have experienced the high place.

phenomenon or the call of the Void right. and so what hes and her colleagues said. was all right what we think happen is. when you're anxious when you're an. anxious person you're more attuned to. like internal signals yeah and so you're. you are experiencing those like more. acutely um like all the symptoms. associated with it like just being. nervous and um just having like your. stomach kind of Topsy Turvy like those. symptoms stand out to you more and so. those people remember having experien. the call the void more so they're more.

likely to report it um and that. everybody most people probably. experienced this it's just some people. it's just so fleeting or whatever to. them that they don't they don't remember. it later on I find that questionable but. that's kind of how they explained it. yeah and they also sort of WRA their. heads around the idea that uh the call. of the Void is a is a survival Instinct. it it's kind of the opposite of what. people especially Freud had previously. thought about it is that it reflects a.

survival Instinct that we have um to you. know sort. of think about that in terms of framing. it of of how they're appreciating being. alive and not doing that yeah be so the. scientific explanation urant which means. current um is that you are when you're. up there on a tall building and you're. looking over the edge or something like. that your innate Instinct like say your. lizard brain is like jump back Jack and.

so you um it sends a fear signal and. your rational brain which is a little. bit slower um catches up and is like hey. why am I feeling fear there's no danger. here whatsoever there's like a sturdy. railing and I've got like a solid floor. beneath my feet I guess I'm afraid or I. guess I got a fear signal because I had. the urge to jump and that that's the. call of the void that it's a. miscommunication or. misunderstanding of your physiology um. and your rational mind essentially and.

that that's what the call of the Void is. um I I guess I mean that. certainly certainly jibes to a certain. extent but I don't it still doesn't. quite stand out to me like like KAG. guard's and sart's explanations like I I. think they just completely nailed it I. like like five five Whiffle balls at. once out of the. park yeah I mean they they did the study. and they had data and stuff but then. there's a lot of just philosophical. extrapolation right that you may not.

fully be on board with yeah there was. another study I I think maybe only the. other the only other study I couldn't. find any other ones no uhuh uh Tobias uh. tyman and uh his other um co-workers. there at rure univet. BAM uh this is in Germany that's the. fighting R. jurs in 2020 and they look at uh a. couple of different samples of patients.

276 people who did a online survey um. about half of them had experienced. suicidal ideation at some point um and. then 94 patients who were being treated. for flight phobia like you know fear of. flying in a plane which used to have. pretty solidly but seemed to have gotten. over pretty well yeah I did you don't. you don't cover your head with a blanket. anymore when you fly which is great no. it is it's very nice CU that was. torturous of course and along the lines. of the he study uh 80% of the people who. had experienced suicidal ideation had.

experienced HPP 45% of those um. experienc HPP who hadn't experien or who. hadn't gone through suicidal idh yeah. it's almost like exactly the same. numbers which is crazy and then um it's. crazy who was that it was supposed to be. walking but it's that was just so bad. I'm going to say Colonel Sanders no no. no no no I got walking after you said it. uh so just like every greater. right after I explained it um so Tobias.

tman is that how you pronounced his name. earlier I think tysman I think it's the. second letter for Germany okay Tobias. tysman at all uh this same study also. used a different group looked at a. different group people who suffer from. Clinical fear of heights. acrophobia and um they found that only. 45% of them had ever experienced high. place phenomenon which is basically. tracking exactly with the general.

population so that shows that it really. is not it doesn't stem from a fear of. heights even though there's other people. that say that's exactly what it stems. from and so then they the people that. they were reporting to and getting their. funding from said so what'd you learn. about fear of flying and they said. nothing right sorry exactly and Delta. was like man yeah we got to stop funding. these terrible Studies have you heard of. this callor the void thing they're like. oh jeez we're only the second study so.

right we'll get it someday um I say we. take our second break and then come back. and do more. speculating all right. [Music].

so Livia dug up some more some more. speculation which is what she called. this section actually um what did she. call this article it was great I don't. have my title page uh the call of the. Void don't pick it up. yeah I promise Olia we're going to use. that as the actual title one day yep is. it going to be this one I think this. might be this might be it yeah that's a. good one I think so too I added an it. it's don't pick up don't pick up uh yeah.

which is even funnier actually for sure. um there's a psychology Professor from. Britain um or researcher rather named. Paul uh. sovi who basically said the thoughts of. doing these you know inappropriate. things or dangerous things like the call. of the Void are a result of our problem. solving uh process within the brain so. our subconscious just throwing something. out there and then our rational brain. getting an opportunity to to say like no.

that's of course I'm not going to jump. off a or jump off a bridge right that's. a terrible idea and then your. unconscious is like but you could yeah I. don't know I'm down with that one I'm. not down with that one either okay I got. one so and I guess when we're going back. and forth like this everybody should. just imagine us like we're in a break. off and now like you've backed off like. you did a little dance to back out and. now I did a little dance to back in or. jump in okay so cardboards on the. pavement there's a really great um uh. article in Nautilus about this too uh. and there was a researcher named Adam.

Anderson who is a cognitive. neuroscientist at Cornell I like this. guy's idea he basically says that when. we're on a tall building we're so just. not designed to experience Heights. that's it's not exactly new I mean. Cliffs have been around for a long time. but our experience of being high up is. far more frequent than it ever was in. the past just even a few hundred years. ago right. so when we're up there that lizard brain.

again is like oh we're in danger we're. in danger and that same lizard brain. says let's get to safety as soon as. possible hey there's the ground it's. safe to be on the ground let's just jump. and be on the ground and luckily our. rational brain catches up in time and is. like no I get what you're saying like. yes this is kind of dangerous but. jumping to the ground is a really. terrible idea and we're not going to do. that but that that is the call of the. void that that's what gives us that urge. to jump it's our are dumb dumb. unconscious minds seeking safety yeah.

that's interesting I think okay you. jumping in well I'll jump in okay I'll. pop and lock uh there even though we. said that it's not um related to. acrophobia there are people who think it. is right uh there's an Oxford. psychologist named Daniel Freeman who. said no it actually is part of the. trifecta of what you might experience if. you have a fear of heights fear of. falling fear that uh whatever you're on. the bridge or whatever will collapse.

beneath you and then the third one which. is a fear of jumping so he lumps it in. there as as part of the uh the trio of. things that what he thinks uh make up. acrophobia or or the fear of jumping. part of it he's saying like is the call. of the Void or triggered by it I think. yeah yeah that's the call of the Void. but he he thinks it is a form of. acrophobia right exactly I don't know I. didn't see much support for his but nah. yeah um there's a neuroscientist who.

apparently is a real ped an because um. psychologists have been seeking to. basically discredit Freud's idea that. the call of the Void is actually a. manifestation of our urge to destroy. ourselves um you know wrought large or. WR large right um and they found like no. that's not true and EM Gabrielle. brunau who again is a neuroscientist was. like uh actually there's a there's a. condition where you can actually have.

some sort of um prefontal cortex damage. and you'll violate social norms left and. right they that person may actually. follow the The Urge of the call of the. Void it could actually result in. somebody jumping and um everybody. stopped inviting Emil Gabriel brunau to. their conferences. yeah I'm with everybody there yeah I. don't need somebody pointing that out. all kinds of uh terrible things can. happen when you have. a damage to your brain exactly you want.

to end with Judith danov yeah I'm GNA. sit down and watch you take it home uh. Judith danov is a novelist uh who. described the urge to jump in um. Washington state from Deception Pass. Bridge I mean just that name alone makes. you want to do something weird I think. uh as not a frightening thing but like. an urge to fly and that's sort of along. the lines of what I was talking about. not necessarily urge to fly but just. sort of like to see what it's like right.

you know yeah and hers was uh serious. enough or um significant enough that she. just sat down in the middle of the. bridge to make sure she she didn't. actually follow through on the Urge it. was that strong yeah and she quit. knitting her uh Mac Wings right uh you. got anything else no sir that's the call. of the Void everybody uh don't feel. weird if number one you experience it. and number two you feel like no one's.

actually fully explained what it is cuz. they haven't uh and since I said that. it's time for listener. mail uh this is just sort of a quick one. that came in today because uh I I think. a lot of people don't know that this is. the case and we we say it from time to. time but this is about our Bumper Music. that we play between uh commercial and. content yes uh Hey guys I've been. listening to the show for several years. now my hobby is woodworking so I all. always listen with ear muffs and. Bluetooth uh built-in with built-in.

Bluetooth to protect my ears and still. hear the show wow I enjoy the very. Jingles that you play at the beginning. and the end of the breaks even if I skip. the ads sh I always make sure to listen. to the jingles and I usually even sing. along uh can you provide a collection of. these I'm not the only one who loves. them uh ke up keep up with the great. info and the entertaining Tunes that's. from Rob MH and Rob we read this because. uh like I said I don't think a lot of. people realize that those are all 100%.

of them are made for by listeners people. send them inh um we don't use every. single one of them sometimes it's just. you know some are better than others but. we use most of them and uh we're always. willing to listen to them uh keep it. around 12 seconds long and that's kind. of been one of the very fun things of. the show is is hearing everyone's take. on the on the stuff you should know uh. jingle theme yeah everybody has a. favorite too that's the coolest part is. you talk to stuff you should know. listeners and everybody has their own.

favorite Jingles yeah and sometimes. Jerry is uh invested enough in editing a. particular episode to uh to try and be a. little cheeky with some some particular. style as it relates to topic and. sometimes that happens purely by happen. stance uh and has even happened to our. disadvantage at times when people are. like hey why'd you play that kind of. music in this one that's really not too. cool MH um and it's just like oh shoot. that was an accident right uh yeah I.

remember the one you're talking about. too and I'm not going to name it either. yeah uh who was that from that's from. Rob that was awesome Rob thank you for. asking that setting us up like a t-ball. coach for that one uh if you want to be. like Rob and get in touch with us and. ask us a question that we can answer we. love to answer questions and if you're a. listener who has a little bit of musical. talent and you want to share a jingle. with us we would love that too either. way you can wrap it up spank it on the. bottom and send it off to stuff podcast.

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