The Beloved Judy Blume | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh, and there's Chuck. And it's just. us. Jerry's on vacation, actually. Uh as usual. And this is Stuff You. Should Know. >> Uh have you read any Judy Blume books? >> Yes, I've read a bunch of them. I was. going down the list checking off the. ones I've read.

>> How interesting. Me too. I I had a. feeling you hadn't for some reason. >> Because I'm soulless and robotic? >> Nah. Meet Mark. Uh yeah, look let's I bet you we've read. a lot of the same ones. So, let's go. over that. >> I bet, too. Oh, right now? Okay, you. ready? >> Yeah. >> We'll say them all at the same time. >> No, you say yours and I'll say whether. that's one of mine. >> All right. Uh Freckle Juice? >> Did not read that one. >> I did. It was a good one. I'm going to say that about all of them. Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing? >> I did read that.

>> I did, too, but I didn't remember what. that one was about, and I didn't go look. it up. >> Okay. >> Uh Otherwise Known as Sheila the Great? >> I read that. >> That was a good one. Blubber is the one, aside from Are You. There, God? It's Me, Margaret, that I. remember the most. >> Yeah, uh I read both of those. >> And then I think that was it for me. >> All right, I think I read all the I read. Then Again, Maybe I Won't. >> Okay. >> And I also read. um. Superfudge. >> Oh, I did, too. I'm sorry, I did, too. I.

read Superfudge. >> Yeah. So, I think I read six or seven of. these. >> And I had a question mark next to Then. Again, Maybe I Won't. I may have read. that one, or I just may have been aware. of it. >> Yeah, and then the one, what is it, Tiger Eyes, sounded familiar, but I'm. not sure if I read those. But I think it. like, you know, one reason I wanted to. ask is I think Judy Blume and her books. get associated with young girls. >> Sure. >> And I was like, was I an outlier because. I read six or seven Judy Blume books and. like loved them all or or you know, maybe we're both outliers.

>> I don't think so. I don't remember it. being particularly odd or weird at least. in my elementary school. So, the fact. that you did too, I would guess it was. probably fairly normal. I I also read a. lot of Ramona Quimby books. Did you read. any of those? >> No, I never read those. >> I knew that the day I became a. an adolescent, I guess. >> Uh-huh. >> Cuz I was halfway through a Ramona. Quimby book. >> You're seven. >> and I realized I didn't give a good damn. what was about to come next in Ramona.

Quimby's life all of a sudden. >> Oh, no. So, that's that's. >> it for me and Ramona. I always have fond. memories of her. Those were great fun. books. >> Yeah. Well, I think it's cool that we. both read this stuff that our parents. were. my suspicion is it was the same in my. house is that they weren't paying. attention enough probably to say, "Hey, should you be reading this book about, you know, a young girl going through. menstruation and and discovering her. sexual awakening?". >> Right, exactly. My parents paid enough. attention. I remember my dad like some.

tense conversations I barely overheard. The only word I could make out was. fruity. >> Yeah. Oh, man. Goodness me. >> He was a real jerk growing up. >> Yeah. Well, uh here we are though, well-adjusted and and kicking butt in. life. >> Yeah. You know what's great is I can't wait to. get the one or two emails where they're. like, "That was really mean of your dad. to call you fruity.". >> Right. Yeah, get some support. >> Yeah, right. Um he didn't really everybody is what. I'm trying to say. >> Yeah, okay. >> I think you make a great point though,

Chuck. Like I think it's. whether it's normal or not, I feel like. it was great that we read those books. They were great books to start with. >> Totally. >> But also, like it's just so rare for an. adult to have that level of insight into. what it's like to be a kid growing into. well, an adolescent again, right? Um. that's just. people have memories of that. I have. memories of it, but the the vibe, the. feeling and being able to convey it. again, that is long gone.

>> Yeah, I totally agree. >> So, she was good at what she did, and. she was a trailblazing pioneer. of uh. of the first kind. >> Yeah, totally. And when you say was, Judy Blume amazingly is still with us in. her late 80s living down in Key West. >> Mhm. >> Um, but I I think she's basically given. up uh writing. She hasn't put out a book. in a while. Um, she does run a bookstore down in Key. West, which I would love to go to. sometime.

>> I wish I had known the one time I went. to Key West because I definitely would. have popped in to see her. >> Yeah. So, today we salute Judy Blume, and I guess let's go back to her. childhood. >> Sure. >> Uh because she was born Judith Marsha. Sussman. on February 2nd, 1938 in Elizabeth, New. Jersey, uh just outside of New York, and. grew up in a. a pretty just normal middle-class Jewish. family. Uh her dad was a dentist, her. mom was a homemaker, and she, you know, seemed to have a.

uh. You know, I was about to say a happy. life, but she was a fraught kid about. some stuff, but not because she had like. some awful life. It was a pretty normal. life, but a lot of angst, it seems like. >> Yeah, and fairly well earned, I I I feel. like. >> Yeah, for sure. >> But not because her family dynamic was. screwed up. It was like her father was. her confidant like her entire entire. childhood. It sounds like a really good. father. I didn't get the impression that her mom. was anything terrible, but um I think.

her father played a more prominent role. >> Yeah, I think so, too. >> But what her mom gave her was the gift. of. loving to read, which is. man, there are few gifts you can give a. kid better than that, you know? >> Yeah, no kidding. And I know you and I. have talked about this privately, but. you know, when Ruby had was diagnosed. with dyslexia, we were. both as avid readers just, you know, sort of afraid that meant she wouldn't. have that joy. And she's gotten over it to the point. where she's an avid reader and it just. makes us so happy. And you always wonder.

what your kids going to be like and when. I was reading about young Judy Blume. making up stories that like life stories. and backstories for her dolls and play. things and creating characters and. scenarios like. Ruby does a lot of that stuff. And I'm always wondering if like you. know, she writes stories and stuff like. is that her path and like who knows, but. um. you know, just like Judy Blume, they. both had these active or have these. active um kind of make-believe lives.

which which I think is super cool and. healthy and awesome. >> Yeah, the thing that stuck out to me was. that she would take piano lessons and. then while she was practicing the piano. herself, she in her head she was teaching. imaginary students. >> So cool. I love that. I love that. >> She was giving them piano lessons. And you know, that's pretty cool in and. of itself. She actually kept a journal, a notebook to chart their progress. The. imaginary students she was teaching's. progress in her notebook. Like that's. how refined her imagination was. And as.

far as character development goes. As a. kid. >> Yeah, that's super cool. And that. reminded me and again, not to just keep. bringing Ruby into it, but I know you're. a fan, so you don't mind. >> Yeah, I. >> But when I took her to her first Hawks. game when she was like eight or nine. maybe, she sat there and I don't think I've. told this before, but she I looked and. she brought her little notebook like she. always does just in case she gets bored. and she was keeping notes and finally it. was like, "What are you noting?" And she.

had noted all the players and all of. their shoes and what brand and what. color shoes they had and what number. they were and everything. >> Mhm. >> And I just thought, "What an interesting. thing to do?". >> That yeah. I mean, I was never into that kind of. thing. Um so I I yeah, I I feel like I'm. definitely looking at it from the. outside in. >> Yeah, I just you know, when you're a. parent, you're always like, "What does. that mean?" And like maybe one day I'll. look back and go like, "Oh, it all makes. sense now." or whatever. >> Sure. >> Maybe she'll be in inventory or. something.

>> [laughter and snorts]. >> Yeah. Uh what's it called? Uh. when you manage uh. >> Logistics? >> Yeah, logistics. >> [laughter]. >> She'll be in charge of logistics of. moving basketball players around the. country. >> Hey, great. >> Um yeah, that's cool. That's a great. story. And I yeah, I I can't quite get. it either. I mean, is it like a calming. thing? >> I don't know. I have no idea. >> Well, let me know when you figure it out. cuz I'm interested. >> It'll be in like 20 years probably. >> So, even though um Judy Blume was like.

uh. she came up with characters and had a. very rich uh internal life. as a kid, she apparently never. particularly aspired to be a writer. She. ended up um wanting to find essentially. like a creative outlet later on as we'll. see. But as a kid, that wasn't she. wouldn't like, "This is what I'm going. to be as a writer." Um and so that comes. later. In between. then and now. but the opposite. So, now would be while.

she was a child, then would be as she's. grown up a little more. >> Oh man. >> Um you said that she had a kind of a. fraught childhood and then as a result. of that, she definitely suffered from. anxiety as a kid. And this is like 1950s. anxiety. So, like the real deal kind. where you saw like a psychoanalyst. sometimes. >> Yeah, uh certainly starting out in the. '40s when you're a little kid, uh. especially a Jewish-American kid and. World War II is going around. Um there. was a a big preoccupation in.

her family and you know, every probably. Jewish-American kids' life about what. was going on overseas. Uh afraid that could happen to them and. their family, that kind of thing. And. >> then really this is so sad. She was. always just worried about her father. dying because. a couple of her uncles died when they. were younger in their early 40s of heart. attacks, I guess, heart failure. And she was just always worried about. her dad and. um you know, doing kids stuff like you. know, making a deal with God like hey, if I ace this test, it'll help my dad.

live and just it's just so sort of. heartbreaking to hear that stuff. >> Yeah, and if that sounds a little. familiar then you probably have read Are. You There God? It's Me, Margaret. >> Yeah. >> Um so yeah, that was a big deal. Like. that kind of guided her outlook and and. that's a lot to worry about as a little. kid, right? >> Totally, yeah. >> Um so another thing that happened, remember I said her dad was like one of. her her biggest most prominent figures. in her entire life as a kid, um there. were two years where she and her mom and.

brother moved to Miami Beach because her. brother um had suffered some sort of. chronic illness, I believe, and they. were like, "Go to Miami. Apparently the. 110% humidity will do you good.". >> Yeah. >> Uh and her father stayed back in. Elizabeth, New Jersey because he was a. dentist, so he had to stay dentisting, >> Yeah. >> and that separation apparently was so. significant that she developed. an obsessive-compulsive disorder. Um not. only would she, like you said, kind of.

make deals with God, she would, you. know, maybe turn a doorknob handle X. number of times and as long as she. remembered to do that, her father would. stay alive. Like that kind of stuff. Again, we're talking about a kid who's. less than 10 years old. >> Yeah. That's a lot to take on. It just made me real sad to hear that, but um. she also had a few and you know, as. we'll see, she wrote a lot about stuff. that she knew, either places where she. lived or about things that were you.

know, like you said in Are You There. God? It's Me, Margaret kind of writing. about that. She also wrote later in life about a. family who experienced these three. plane crashes sort of near their house. that affected their household and that. really happened to her, right? >> Yeah, over the course of 58 days, less. than two months, there were three. separate plane crashes at the from the. Newark Airport, which apparently was. like right there that the. runways were pointed essentially at. Elizabeth. Yeah. And.

100 people died from those three. crashes. 11 of which were like neighbors, friends. and neighbors, like town folk from. Elizabeth who had been on the ground in. the wrong place at the wrong time. >> Yeah, so that's obviously going to you. know, color a young kids psyche, you. know. >> For sure. I mean, what are the odds of. something like that happening? I guess. it was bad enough that they closed the. Newark Airport for a year and and. rebuilt the runways so that they weren't. pointed at Elizabeth anymore.

>> Yeah, that's that's terrible. >> Yeah. So all those things together certainly. like shaped her. childhood, her pre-adolescence. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, and then as she. like kind of grew up, like her life was. pretty normal 1950s, early 1960s type life. Although she was a little more on the. alternative side, it looks like it. sounds like she was a bit of a beatnik. >> Yeah, I think she gravitated towards. that. Like when she graduated and she. graduated in you know, high school at.

the top of her class and then went to. NYU and then there in the 50s at NYU, it. sounds like she was definitely kind of. slanted toward that bohemian culture and. drawn to the beatnik types. >> Yeah, she was hanging with Lew and. Davis. >> Should we take a break? >> Yeah. >> All right, we'll take an earlier break. It seems like a good college seems like. a good breaking point to me. >> Oh, I agree. >> All right, we'll be right back. >> [music].

>> So, we're back. Chuck and Judy Blume is. stuck in college cuz we took an ad break. and we're going to dislodge her. She's a junior. It's 1959. She She meets. a guy named John Blume. Uh she was 21 at the time. He would have. been 27. >> Yeah. >> He was already like well out of school,

established himself as a lawyer, and he. said, "Hey, toots. How about we get. married?" And she liked that idea. So, they got engaged and they got married. that year. Sadly, very very sadly, I'm. sure this hurt quite hard. Her father. wasn't there to walk her down the aisle. because like a month before the wedding, he died from a heart attack. Uh he. wasn't early 40s, but he was early. mid-50s, which is still very very young. >> Yeah. I mean, to see your fear realized.

like that that like the one thing that. she was worried about, specifically the. heart attack, too. >> Mhm. >> Uh must have been devastating. Um so, she gets married in 1961. She gradu-. graduated from NYU with a degree in. early childhood education. And the plan was to sort of. you know, you know, you mentioned. earlier she didn't want to be a writer. necessarily and, you know, one of the. big reasons because it is in the 1940s. and early 1950s when she was a kid, that. just wasn't an avenue that was as open. to young women. Uh it's a big reason.

that S. E. Hinton kept the initials S. E. Hinton uh when she wrote The. Outsiders and all those books, you know. >> I didn't know S. E. Hinton was a woman. >> Are you serious? >> Yeah. Dead serious. >> Yeah. >> I thought it was like. >> Hinton was a teenage girl when she wrote. The Outsiders. >> I had no idea. Wow. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I thought that was S.E. Hinton. >> Yeah, that's why she did it. I mean, it. worked, I guess. She's like, "I got to. be able to fool Josh Clark.".

>> No, but I mean, like I had no idea. This. is literally the first time I'm hearing. that. It's not even like, "Oh, that. vaguely rings a bell." I have never. heard that in my entire life. >> Well, there you have it. Yeah, she was. a teenage girl in high school when she. wrote The Outsiders. >> That's really cool. >> But again, that's why she kept the name. S.E. Hinton because just publishing. wasn't so open to young women writing. books. So, that's why Judy Blume didn't. And when she uh. was graduating college, she was just. sort of on that track. She's like, "I'm. going to get my degree. I'm going to get. married, which I already did before I.

graduated. I'm going to have kids and be. a homemaker." And within a couple of. years of graduating, she had a daughter. named Randy Lee and then a son named. Lawrence Andrew and was, you know, very. happily, it seems, back in the New. Jersey suburbs. >> Yep. >> uh while her husband was attorneying. >> Yes. So, um I had said though that she. was she started writing because she was. like, "I need to do something else. besides just like raise kids and sit at. home and dust.". Um that just was not enough to fulfill.

her as a person. So, once both of her. kids were in preschool. um she was like. "I'll write some books for my kids or at. least my kids' friends if the kids don't. like it." So, she started creating pic-. picture books, essentially. The first. one she came up with. uh or at least the first one, her first. published book was a children's picture. book called The One in the Middle is the. Green Kangaroo. >> Yeah. >> a great, great children's book name. Uh but that that didn't come like easy. That wasn't like a you know, first try.

and she she got her big break. >> Yeah, I mean, it's I think she went a. couple of years, like two, two and a. half years getting, you know, rejection. letter after rejection letter. Um I. think they dug up Who helped us with. this one? >> Uh Julia. >> Yeah, Julia found that she was getting. like six no letters per week. uh, before she became like an overnight. success. You know, that's how the the. media like tends to view those things. >> Mhm. >> Um, but it seems like the big turning.

point was when she took a continuing ed. class at NYU in the late 60s. Uh, like a. a writing class for like tween writing. and teen writing. >> Mhm. >> And she told NPR a few years ago that it. was like such a monumental thing for her. to like to to know that she was going to. leave every Monday, leave her family, get go to the bus to uh, New York City. and like her husband was going to feed. the kids and she wasn't going to be home. until later that night. And just knowing. she had that creative outlet really. freed her up mentally, I think.

>> Yeah. >> And led to that children's book and then. eventually led to the publishing of her. first novel, uh, Iggy's House. >> Yeah, it was a children's book, I guess. maybe young adult, um, book about a it's. from the viewpoint of a a little white. girl named Winnie who lives in a. neighborhood where her best friend has. just moved and a black family moves into. the neighborhood. And it's all about the. racial tensions that develop, white. flight. Um, but it's rather than Judy.

Blume trying to make it from the. viewpoint of the the little girl from. the black family that just moved in, I. think she very wisely did it from the. viewpoint of this, you know, little. white girl who's looking at it from the. outside and was kind of innocently. um, trying to figure out what what what. the problem was, what was going on. And. this is 1970 when it was published and. this is not. the kind of book that children were. were finding in the library at the time.

by any means. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh, so that's her first. one published in 1970 as far as a novel. goes. And then right out of the gate her. follow-up book, again also in 1970, was. Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret. >> Wow. >> So, I mean, can you just imagine. starting your career out with a. stone-cold classic like that? Uh it's it. was eventually made into a movie that. was actually pretty good. I know she um. >> Yeah, it wasn't bad. Um you know, it's. hard when you have such a beloved book.

from your childhood. And I think that's. why she waited so long. Uh you know, overtures for years and years and years. to like decades to try and get it made. into a film and she always said no. And. I think she finally found, you know, that it was time. And and it turned out. pretty good. I'm waiting, you know, Ruby. saw it and I'm waiting for her to want. to read these books. Um cuz we we got. them all like, you know, ready at the. gate waiting for. >> They're just idling in the bookshelf. >> Yeah, yeah. They're they're they're. ready. >> Um I didn't see it. I saw it had a 7.3. on IMDb, which is definitely.

respectable, and 99% on Rotten Tomatoes. So, >> Yeah. >> you're not the only one who thought it. was pretty good. Um so, this book that comes out Let's. talk about Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret for a second, okay? [clears throat]. >> Um. the reason we referred to Judy Blume as. a trailblazer is because she was she was. one of the first people writing. this kind of book for this age group. S. E. Hinton, her um. uh her book The Outsiders takes place. among high schoolers.

Um same with like the The Chocolate War. by um what was his name? >> Robert um. >> Ludlum? >> Yeah. Robert Ludlum's Chocolate War. Um. and then also there was another one. called uh The Cat Ate My Gym Suit by. Paula Danziger. That was fairly the all. of them had to do with ninth graders or. up, right? >> Yeah. >> She's writing about like 11-year-olds. ex- going through the beginnings of what. high schoolers are now dealing with,

right? >> Yeah. >> only person who beat her was S. E. Hinton, from what I could tell. I think. The Outsiders came out in 1967. Are You. There God? Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret came out in 1970. And again, it. was just totally different from. other books for kids at the time. >> Yeah, I mean, you know, kids books are. still like this in a lot of ways, although there's a lot more variety now, thankfully, but back then it was kind of. like you present a big problem, maybe. there's a moral issue or something, and. there's some big grand solution that.

teaches a big. grand lesson. >> Mhm. >> And she was like, you know what? It's. not that easy and it's not that clean. to grow up and. and and black and white. So, like, I'm. going to write books about how messy it. is and how maybe it's just a struggle. sometimes and you know, there's just a. lot of realism in her books of like what. it was really like to be an adolescent. And. you know, critics liked them right away. The buying public loved them. I think it.

was in Are You There God? was a New York. Times bestseller and a New York Times. Book Review Outstanding Book of 1970. And just kind of launched her right out. of the gate, you know. >> For sure. Um. Yeah, and I saw it also really took off. when it came out in a trade paperback. version in 1972. at a price that like younger kids her. audience could afford. >> Oh, yeah. >> Like they didn't have to ask their. parents to buy it for them anymore. >> Right. >> So, um.

one of the things that that Judy Blume. is credited with um. is. essentially approaching adolescence, approaching um. well, not just menstruation, Chuck, but. monarchy. Remember that? >> Yeah. >> Monarchy used to be like a guest. character, a recurring guest character. on early Stuff You Should Know, weirdly. enough. >> Yeah, it's just a good trivia. word. >> For sure. Um but she approached it as like it's a. good thing. This is exciting. Like her. characters are like, "Hurry up. I want. to hurry up." Um and one passage that's.

very, very famous, um, is when, um, Margaret and her friends who all. collectively make up the preteen. sensations, it's their little secret. club where they get together and talk. about this stuff. One of them has the idea that they want. to basically. grow breasts, I guess is the best way to. put it. And so, one of them. suggests they like. move their elbows like back and forth. alongside of their like they're. basically pumping. And while you do that, you have to say,

"I must, I must, I must increase my. bust.". >> Classic. >> I didn't know that came from that. I. always associate that with the Lords of. Acid. Remember that song? >> Oh, yeah. >> I had no idea that, um, Jade for You. from Lords of Acid was a Judy Blume fan. and was citing. Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret. >> Pretty cool. And S.E. Hinton was a. teenage girl when she wrote The. Outsiders. >> I'm just finding out all sorts of big. stuff. >> Yeah, it's pretty cool. I mean, monumental book right out of the gate.

Um, she is at the same time this is. going on, uh, you know, a a. kind of playing this housewife role, uh, but again, realizing like, you know, I don't know if that was the life for. me. I got married when I was young. I. never had sort of the freedom and. adventure that I, uh, longed for in her life. And she said, you know, there was a. quote where she said for 16 years. writing saved me and my marriage. Uh, but by the mid-70s the rules had. changed. So, by 1975 she's like,

"You know, I think I want a divorce.". And she did that. She divorced her first. husband, moved to New York, and then a. year later married a physicist named. Thomas Kitchens. Um, they were only married for about 4. years, but they had a pretty adventurous. life. They lived in London and in New. Mexico. >> Right. I think, uh, at, um, Los Alamos. >> Okay. >> So, also by 1975 when she decided to get. divorced from her first husband, the. lawyer. Um,

she had put out 10 books. between 1970 and 1975. >> Pretty amazing. >> Yeah. Uh, basically almost all the ones. that you and I read came out in that. first like 10-year spurt. Like she just. wrote classic best-selling. kids books, um, just right out of the gate. It's just. really cool how much she was able to do, how much she was able to just connect. with little kids. I still don't get it. Like I do not understand how an adult. can do that. It's I'm just in awe of it.

>> Yeah, for sure. Uh, I know her 1975 book. Forever is not one that I read, but. that's a very big book for Emily and I. know a very big book for a lot of like. uh, probably girls of all generations, but Gen X girls in particular because. that was the one. where she had kind of been building up. to, you know, uh, you know, talking about, uh, prepubescent stuff and adolescence and. puberty and then finally in Forever, it's like finally a character that wants. to try and have sex for the first time.

And Emily was just like, "Oh man, like. to read that book as a kid, it was like. a really big deal.". >> Yes. And the book itself, um, I've seen it described as essentially a. self-help manual for having safe sex. because she follows the main character. Katherine. throughout like this process where she. meets the dude, she falls in love, she. decides to have sex, and then before she. has sex, she goes to like Planned. Parenthood to get condoms. >> Yeah. >> Um, she like like she basically learns. anatomy,

um, and reproductive stuff, like all. sorts of different things that are laid. out like this is what's happening to. Katherine, but reader, I'm really. talking to you and I'm making it as. plain as possible. If you're going to. have sex, do this stuff because this is. how you have safe sex. And of course, as we'll see, like that. just made it an absolute target for, um, book challenges where you formally. request a book be banned or removed from. a library. >> Yeah, I mean, we can go ahead and talk.

about that if you want. Um. I mean, as much as people love Judy. Blume, there was another set of people. that hated uh an author, a grown woman, writing about the realistic challenges. of like being a kid and being a tween or. a teen and going through puberty and all. that stuff. So, uh she was a target right out of the. gate for book banning, like you said, and is on a lot of lists as, you know, some of the most banned books of all. time have been Judy Blume books, which. is like a.

to me, a feather in your cap as an. author cuz that means you're probably. telling the truth about something. >> Yeah, but as we'll see, that drove her. crazy. Like, she is not one for. censorship, you know? >> Oh, yeah, for sure. >> So, um the the key I saw to. understanding why everybody wants to ban. Judy Blume books is that Judy Blume was. the epitome of second-wave feminism. Like, all the stuff that Betty Friedan. talked about in The Feminine Mystique is. embodied in the writing of Judy Blume. And Judy Blume is talking directly to.

the next generation of kids, essentially. saying, "This is the way to be. This is. a good This is a good way to become a. good person and love yourself and treat. other people kindly." And the arch-rival. to second-wave feminism in the '70s and. '80s and I just think still today, um is. conservativism. They don't want kids shaped like that. So, when they see people when they see. books like that, Judy Blume books, in. their library, they don't want their.

kids anywhere near it. So, they. >> request the book be removed. That's why. those those books get challenged all the. time is because they're a challenge. themselves to conservative ideology, which largely revolves around the idea. that if you don't teach kids stuff, they're not going to do it. They're not. going to think of it themselves and. they're not going to do it. And yeah, it. seems preposterous to me, too, and it. gets proven wrong time and time and time. again, but that's just how that's just.

the conservative outlook. That's just. they don't feel comfortable trying a. different way in that respect. And you. know, I mean, that's a lot of people's. viewpoint. Um it's not necessarily mine, but I think, you know, it doesn't mean. it's inherently wrong. I just I just. don't like the idea of banning books. even though I get. to an extent where they're coming from. They're trying to protect their. children, not tick off Judy Blume or the. liberals. >> Yeah, I and I think a lot of what that. frame of mind comes from is um. I want to be the decider of my kid.

learning what they learn when they learn. it as far as sexuality goes. >> Right. >> I want to be in charge of that. I don't. want it to come from some book from some. lady that they happen to check out at. the library. >> Cuz they had a good like cover. illustration. >> Yeah, and you know, I get that to a. certain degree, but like. TS, you know. >> [laughter]. >> For Judy as far as she goes, she didn't. think she was being very controversial. She thought, "I'm just writing in a very. frank way about how kids really are. Like I was writing the truth." Like uh. Chuck Bryant will one day say.

>> Mhm. >> Um she didn't like the sterilized. adolescents that she saw portrayed in. like other kids books and, you know, books that ignored the angst of what was. going on in kids' lives. So, she. thought, and I think she was very much. correct in my opinion, and I'm sure. yours, that she was doing a service by. like kind of portraying the realism of. of childhood and and teendom. >> Yeah. Better to learn this stuff from an adult. who knows what they're talking about, who's been through this, and and knows. how to describe the process of having.

safe sex than from Tina who has an older. brother that mentioned to her like, you. know, one time. >> Yeah, exactly. >> So, um yes, she has been I think she's. not just been one of the most banned. authors of the '80s and the '90s, but. also the 21st century. I think even in 2025. 2024 2025 school year, she was um her. novel Forever. was on the um list of most banned books,

the one that had it was basically a safe. sex self-help um manual. Uh so yeah, you can kind of understand. that, but it's not it's not just that. There's been other ones, too, like Tiger. Eyes. is um about a a girl whose father is. killed uh during a robbery of the. 7-Eleven that he works at and her coming. to terms with that and suffering from. grief and depression and one of her. friends is underage binge drinker. I.

mean, that book gets banned a lot, too. >> Yeah, I man, I just think it's so cool. that she was brave enough to like write. these stories, you know? >> Yeah, for sure. I mean, like she was. very brave, especially after it became. clear, and I think it did fairly early. on, that there was a large segment of. America that viewed her books as. controversial. And so yeah, every time. she sat down and wrote one of these she. it was. a greater and greater act of bravery. >> Yeah, and a bigger and bigger middle. finger.

>> Pretty much. >> [laughter]. >> Uh should we take our second break? >> Yeah. >> All right, we'll be right back, everybody, with more on Judy Blume. >> [music]. >> All right, so I did mention um and you. know, this isn't the the most revealing. thing in the world. A lot of authors.

write about what they know, but um Judy. Blume definitely did that. Uh when she. was living in Maine, she wrote a story. set in Maine. When she lived in New. Mexico. She wrote uh I think it said. movie. She wrote a book uh. you know, I'm talking about books here. >> Right. >> She wrote a book Did I say movie? >> I don't think so. >> Okay. I thought I said movie. >> If you did, I'm sorry I missed it. >> Anyway. A lot of times she wrote books like set. where she was living or about sort of. veiled thinly veiled um sort of uh. things that happened in her own. childhood. >> Mhm. >> Uh not super unusual, but she also did.

the same thing, you know, she wrote. adult books too. We're talking about her. kids books. She wrote four novels for. adults. They were all best sellers as. well. And they were all um. sort of about her life experiences. starting with Wifey in 1978 about a. woman who was in a sort of traditional. marriage. She wanted to break out of. that. >> Yeah. Pretty uh pretty autobiographical. There's also Smart Women. uh which was about women navigating. dating and relationships after post like. post-divorce.

>> Yeah. There you go. >> That was '83. Uh there's also one that. came out in '98 called Summer Sisters. It's about a female friendship. That. sounds pretty sweet. >> Yeah. Summer is in the season. >> And then In the Unlikely event uh from. 2015, that was the one you mentioned. that she wrote about a family going. through those actual plane crashes that. she went through. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh and you know, I said. that critics. they certainly didn't love everything. I. know Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret and a lot of her best sellers. got some good marks with critics, but a. lot of critics.

kind of dunked on her for. being a simplistic writer. Uh there was. one critic who compared her writing to a. shopping list and. I always just thought her work was. just very uh readable for her audience. If that's simplistic, then I guess it. works in my opinion, you know? >> Yeah. I mean, we're talking about. 11-year-old readers who may have only. been reading for the last handful of. years, you know? >> Yeah, totally. >> Yeah. But the the difference is she. didn't write down to them.

>> Right. >> So point. >> So, yeah, I think I think there were. just people who dis- it didn't like what. she was writing and were taking pot. shots wherever they felt they could. >> I want to I can't This made me kind of. want to reread one of her books and just. see how it grabbed me as an adult, you. know? >> Same. I Yeah, I ran across a couple of. people who were talking about some of. these books and they were like, "Yeah, I. spent 3 hours reading this and it was. well worth it.". >> Right. You can just blaze through it. >> Yeah. Uh I I feel the same way. That I'd like. to read some more um. at just at least one or two and then the.

entire catalog of Sweet Valley High. >> Emily read those, too, man. She. Gosh, she reads a lot and read a lot as. a kid. >> Yeah. Well, they were huge when we were. younger. >> Yeah, and the other one for Emily was. the uh. Nancy Drew books. She still has her. collection from like her mom from when. she was a kid and she read all of those. >> That's really cool. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, my sisters read those and the. Hardy Boys a little bit. >> Yeah. >> I was a fan of Alfred Hitchcock's Three. Investigators.

Remember them? >> Two That Why does that sound so. familiar? >> It was like Alfred Hitchcock's nephew. and every once in a while they could. call on Alfred Hitchcock. >> Yeah. >> they would. >> I might have read some of those. >> investigate some It was very Hardy. Boys-esque. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I liked them for some reason. >> Uh what a time. >> What a time to be alive. >> So, uh because of all of the book. banning and stuff that went on, it's. probably no surprise that she became um. very much a uh a kind of central person.

in the anti-book banning movement. >> Yeah. >> Um she has worked a lot over the years. with the National Coalition Against. Censorship. Uh she had a couple of. project in the '80s um trying to get. like parents and kids talking more and. one was called the Kids Fund, capital K. I D S in 1981. >> Yeah, very cool. >> Uh and that's to develop programs that. encourage communication between parents. and teens, to the parent-child. discussions through books and then uh. she had a book. She.

I don't think we mentioned one of the. things that she got a lot through her. career. It was letters from kids who. often told her things that like they. would never tell their parents and were. just very open and expressive. So she. hopefully had permission, but she. eventually put those out in a book. called Letters to Judy colon what your. kids wish they could tell you and this. was in 1986. >> Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool. thing to do. >> Yeah, same. >> Um. So yeah, the. like she's the real deal. She's not just.

in it for the dough. Um although I'm quite sure she's made. quite a bit of dough because I think she. sold like 90 million copies of her books. over the years. >> Woo! Man. >> different languages. >> That's amazing. >> Um. Yeah, so. she has made quite a bit of money, but. she's also um. legit in the fact that she's she really. genuinely wants to figure out how to. bridge the gap between parents and their. kids. to help both groups. Um.

she also you said that she was like. really against um censorship. One of the. things that she took a stand against was. back in 2023 was that cancel culture. Um. basically any kind of intellectual. censorship or anything that that was. against any intellectual freedom she was. she was against and she was talking. about this in an interview with the. Times of London. uh in April of that year and apparently.

they asked her about JK Rowling who at. the time and I think still basically. every day was um controversial. because she made some like repeated. double down um comments about uh. that were just transphobic essentially. >> Yeah. >> And um. out of that context in a different. context they asked Judy Blume about that. um about J.K. Rowling and she said that. um "I love her. I am behind her 100% as. I watch from afar.".

And the way that it was printed in the. Times of London in a article, it made it. sound like she was like. "Yeah, I'm I'm backing up this this. person's transphobic comments. I'm I'm. behind her 100%." So, she had to to take. to social media to be like um that was. out of context. >> Yeah, in fact, I think we should read. her quote even. Uh she said, "I wholly. support the trans community. My point, which was taken out of context, is that. I can empathize with the writer or any. person who has been harassed online. I. stand with the trans community.

and vehemently disagree with anyone who. does not fully support equality and. acceptance of LGBTQ+. people. Anything to the contrary is. total BS.". >> Yeah. >> And I love that she took such a hard. stance of like, "Hey, hey, hey. Uh. don't misunderstand my words. Like, I'm. Judy effing Blume.". >> Exactly. [laughter] That was pretty much. what's between the lines there, for. sure. >> Yeah. >> Uh so, uh let's see. You said that she.

lives in Key West now. You can go to. Books & Books at the Studios of Key West. and say hi, maybe buy something. And then, she's I mean, she's just. basically been really back in the. spotlight in the last few years, even. though she's, from what I understand, still on hiatus since 2015 from writing. or at least publishing. Um but starting in 2023, there were not. just that movie for Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret, which, like you said, people have been waiting decades for. There's a documentary that came out that. year, Judy Blume Forever.

>> It's great. >> And And yeah, and then in 2024, there was a biography, The Genius of. Judy, uh by Rochelle Bergstein. Um that. was kind of like a scholarly exploration. of how uh Blume's work impacted kids. And then there was another one. It was a. a. authorized and then unauthorized. autobiography called Judy Blume: A Life. that her friend Mark Oppenheimer. published in March 2026 and that she.

publicly removed her support from, cut. off contact with Oppenheimer, and then. didn't explain to the public or. Oppenheimer why. >> Yeah. I don't know why. >> No, no one knows why. >> She didn't tell me. >> poured over those books. and have been like or that book and have. been like maybe this is it. I'm is this. it? I don't know. Mark Oppenheimer was. like, I have no idea. She didn't explain. it to me. There wasn't anything. controversial. She like but she read the. first draft and that was it. >> Yeah. Yeah, who knows? Uh you know, I know.

what you mentioned she had those two. divorces, but you'll be glad to know. uh that she found uh long-lasting true. love. Sometimes it takes a couple of. times to get it right, but she. uh met a guy named George Cooper in 1979. and they moved in together after their. very first date. and got married uh 8 years later in 1987. and that is who helps her run that. bookstore down in Key West. So, they're. still together after all these years. >> That is super cute. Yeah, he's like a. He's like a civil rights law professor,

I think. >> Yeah, that sounds about right. >> Um what else you got? >> I got nothing else. >> I don't either. Hats off to Judy Blume. Even if you don't agree with her writing. and what she writes about to kids, you. still got to admire her bravery and. courage. >> Agreed. >> Uh. and if you want to know more about Judy. Blume, doesn't really matter what age. you are, go read some of her books. >> Yeah. >> And while you're doing that, and you. know what? You could do a lot worse than. checking it out at your local library to.

support its existence there. >> True. >> And or could do both. Buy one from your. local independent bookseller. >> Yeah, maybe from Judy Blume herself. >> Sure. >> If you're in Key West. >> Mhm. >> Or if you find a dude selling books out. of the trunk of his car, that is as. independent a bookseller as you can. find. >> I wonder if you bought one. from Judy Blume herself in her own. bookstore and you're like, "Oh my god, will you please sign this?" She's like, "I don't sign books on Judy Blume.". >> leave. Here's your receipt.

>> Middle finger. >> Uh, let's see. Chuck just made himself. laugh, which is wonderful. That means. it's time for listener mail. >> That means he's awake. Uh, bonjour Josh and Chuck. My husband. and I finally had a chance to see you. live for the first time at Massey Hall. in uh, Toronto this June. >> Yeah. >> Uh, which in real time was just a couple. of nights ago for us and it was the. greatest show. >> Mhm. >> on Earth. >> Yeah, we got a standing ovation. >> Yeah, it was really something. >> Mhm. >> Uh, we are from a small community about. uh, 2 hours and a half north of Toronto.

and we're definitely not city people. But we figured it's worth it for Josh. and Chuck. Uh, my husband's been a huge. fan and loyal listener for many years. I'll admit that I personally listened. because it gave me something to talk. [music] about with the guy who would. eventually become my husband. Uh, but it didn't take long before I. genuinely fell in love with the show. myself. And because of that, I've always. associated both of you with the very. beginning of our relationship. >> Nice. >> Uh, your show at Massey Hall far. exceeded um, our expectations. I just. wanted to thank you for giving us such a. wonderful evening. Atmosphere was warm, relaxed, genuinely fun. My husband was.

smiling from ear to ear the entire time. And despite the anxiety that events like. this can sometimes bring, uh, he was. comfortable and able to simply enjoy. himself and that alone. uh, meant more to me than I can express. So, thank you both for doing what you. do. Despite all the craziness in the. world right now, it brought me so much. joy to see a room full of people come. together simply to laugh and learn and. enjoy a couple of hours together. I. think your Canadian listeners know just. how kind and genuine you both are and we. truly appreciate. >> [music]. >> that you made the trip to spend some. time with us here in Canada. We'd be.

lucky to have you back anytime because. you're always welcome here. Thanks for. such It's experience. Warmly, Kelsey and. Andrew Sweet. >> Man, that is a world-class email, huh? >> Maybe best [music] ever. >> That's the kind of email that removes. borders and just turns us into one great. big North American continent, you know? >> Agreed. >> Well, thanks a lot, Kelsey and Andrew. Thanks for coming to see us and thank. you, Kelsey, for such a great email. And. if you want to try to top that, let's. see what you got. You can wrap it up,

spank it on the bottom, and send it off. to stuffpodcast@iheartradio.com. [music]. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeartRadio. >> [music]. >> For more podcasts by iHeartRadio, visit. the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or. wherever you listen to your favorite. shows. [music].