The Battle of the Sexes | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck. It's just the. two of us, and that's great because I'll. be playing the role of Billy Jean Kink. and Chuck's going to play the role of. male chauvinist pig Bobby Rigs. >> Oh, man. >> Take it, Chuck. Hey, before we get going on this one, I. have a quick shout out. Uh, and this is.

coming out a couple of days after I did. this because we're cutting it so close. because of our week off last week. But, uh, that makes me happy because I, uh, was asked a friend of mine's son, >> uh, his name is Royce. He is a student, a junior at Midtown High School here in. Atlanta. >> Nice. >> And he has a teacher, uh, Miss Smolco, who is a longtime Stuff You Should Know. listener. And when Royce told Miss. Smokeok like, "Hey, I know that guy. We're buddies. We go to Hogs Games. together.". >> She kind of flipped out and was like,

"Oh my god, I wonder if like would he be. interested in in helping us out with our. podcast program?". >> Oh, cool. >> And they set it up via email and I spent. uh yesterday, which was in our world uh. Monday, >> um at Midtown High School addressing the. junior class, about 200 kids. And uh I. gotta say, man, it was an incredible. experience. Uh the students were into. it. They were engaged. They had great.

questions. They had great answers. >> Um they were, you know, a lot of it was. sharing, you know, what they're doing. with this podcast project, which is. based off of like stuff you should know. style stuff. >> Neat. >> Um which was super cool. like these real. philosophical questions that they're. digging into and taking uh opposite. sides and debating and uh they were. seeking advice and it was just it was an. incredible experience and I I just I. left like on a real high about Gen Z and. like where our future is headed and it.

was just awesome. >> Great. So the the broadstrokes are Gen Z. got Chuck high yesterday. >> Yeah. Yeah, they got me super high. Uh it it. was really cool. They were all just. amazing kids and and Miss Smoo was. wonderful and uh and the other teacher. um I think his name was Alex his last. name but he was super nice and they're. just like hats off to these teachers. >> Yeah. >> Um what's going on in the at least at. Midtown High School is is amazing and I. I just left feeling great. It was.

awesome. >> I think Royce is getting an A. >> You know, Royce wasn't even there. He's. he's a does like a a late arrival thing. because of like work study or something. >> Uhhuh. >> And so I was like, "Dude," I texted him. I was like, "Where were you?" And he. explained the whole deal like that he's. not even allowed in school till later. So. >> they woke up. >> It was just one of those things. >> Okay. >> But uh everyone was super nice and it. was just it was it was so cool to see. how into it everybody was. >> That's awesome. Well, way to go, Chuck. >> Oh, and real quick, there were a couple. of students. I won't name them. Uh, I.

have permission to name Royce because. he's a pal, but there were two. legitimate um big-time stuff you should. know listeners in the junior class that. came up after and said hello and they. were both like really really nice. >> Awesome. Shout out thing one and thing. two. >> That's right. >> Uh, way to go, Chuck. You You were. basically a teacher for that moment. while. >> I kind of felt that way. It's like maybe. one day when I retire, I'll just like go. and teach for real. >> I'll let you borrow my tweed jacket with. the um the suede elbow patches. >> The the don't be dumb jacket. >> Mhm. Wow, that's that's a big deal.

>> You have to overlook all the stains on. it. >> All right, >> so uh we are talking about the battle of. the sexes today. Um which I guess I mean. this is a tough act to follow after your. story, frankly. >> No, this is a great fun sort of pop. culture history story and sports story. Uh there was a a a movie about it just a. handful of years ago starring Steve. Carell as Bobby Riggs. >> and Emma Stone as Billy Jean King. Uh.

where they portrayed the very famous. tennis match between a male chauvinist. pig, an aging over-the-hill hustler. tennis star that uh you know basically. came out and said, "You know what? Men. are better at women than everything. And. an old me can beat a young uh champion. in Billy Jean King. And let's do it on. national TV at the Houston Astradome in. front of a ton of people. >> Yeah. And that's what happened. The end.

>> That's right. >> So, this was a really big deal. I mean, it sounds like um just kind of. light-hearted, maybe a bit of a joke. This actually still happens today. There. are Battle of the Sexist Tennis matches. Um, yeah, this was the first one and it. was. >> a very big deal for everyone involved. On the one hand, you had Bobby Riggs, like you said, over the hill. Uh, he was. 55 and he was trying to he was right. He. was trying.

>> in two weeks. >> He was uh Oh, that's right. The eyides. of March are coming up. >> Oh, boy. Yeah. So, over the hill. I get. it. >> Okay. Yes. Although 55 in 1973 was a lot. different than 55 now, right? >> Yeah. Yeah, I don't look like Bobby. Riggs, >> but he he was over the hill, not just. necessarily because of his age. He'd. just been so far out of tennis for so. long. He was an attention hound and he. wanted to get back in the spotlight. So. for him, this was a gambit. Uh it was a. lot of work to do it, but it was. something he was trying to do. On the.

other side was Billy Jean King who is. takes who took this very seriously. because to her this was symbolic of. women's rights uh which she was a. tireless fighter for not just before. this but after for essentially her whole. life still today. >> Yeah, she's great. Love Billy Jin King. >> She's a she's a hero. >> Bobby Riggs, we'll we'll talk about him. in depth. We're not going to make excuses for the. guy. But I will say Billy Jin King. remained very good friends with him and.

never came out and said like, you know, I mean, when they were going at it, she. was kind of playing him up as a male. chauvinist pig, which he was, right? >> But, um, she would end up saying like, Bobby Riggs was was a a a man of his. time and sort of a victim of being a man. of his time. So, she kind of went easy. on him. I'm not sure I'm going to go so. easy on him. Well, I saw in I saw in. places that there's it's questionable. whether he actually like even believed. most of the stuff he was saying that all. again all this was a gambit and he. figured out a really good way.

>> to. >> um get media attention was to just be. like the the most loudmouth chauvinist. pig just saying the most offensive stuff. >> and becoming loathsome to women um that. this would this would just generate more. buzz and more hype for what he was. trying to do which I mean just doing. that is a jerk move, but it's it's not. it's not set in stone that he was. someone who actually harbored these. feelings personally. So, you got to bear. that in mind while we're we're telling. this story because a lot of people don't.

realize that like um like uh. anti-feminists, a lot of men don't. realize it and a lot of feminists don't. realize it. They took it everything he. was doing very seriously. But like you. said, Billy Jean King didn't, which is a. huge signal right there. >> Yeah. And and and and I just hit this. just hit my brain. If I'm going to go. hard on Bobby Riggs, then I also need to. do the same to Andy Calfman and his. whole wrestling stick. Uh which I think.

is one of the great funny kind of comedy. bits. But it was kind of the same thing. like playing a role to get women riled. up to get attention. Well, really, if we. learned anything from this battle of the. sexist tennis match is if you're going. to go hard on Bobby Rigs, you need to go. hard on Billy Jean King, >> right? >> Should we go back to the early '7s and. set the stage? >> Yes. >> All right. Early 1970s was uh it was a. pretty volatile time. Um it was a big. time for women to start kind of standing.

up for real and saying like, "Hey, we we. want attention. We want rights. We want. the same rights as men." Uh Roie Wade. was decided in 73. Uh the Equal Rights. Amendment was all over the news. Um in. the case of sports, uh certainly 1972. with Title 9 of the Education Amendments. Act, uh that required schools to offer, uh girls and women the opportunities to. um basically get equal funding and. participate equally in athletics. >> as boys and men. So it was a uh it was a.

big time for women's advocacy and. feminism and women's rights between like. 19 and you know certainly before that. but definitely between 1970 and like. 1975. >> Yeah. And just as an aside we did a if I. may say so a pretty good episode on um. the equal rights amendment in 2021. called why is the ERRA still not. ratified. >> Yeah. >> Which is true. >> Yeah. So um yeah it was a big time. there's a lot of momentum for women's. lib for feminism. Uh it was also a a big.

time for tennis which was becoming. really really popular especially in the. United States. The number of Americans. who played tennis tripled from 1970 to. 1974. >> One of the reasons why is because um the. the tennis world started um holding. opens. I never knew this before, but the. US Open, the Australian Open, the reason. they're called opens because they're. open to all players. You can be an. amateur, you can be a pro, and you can.

compete in this um these tournaments, an. open tournament. That was brand new. I. think Wimbledon was the first one to. start it, I think, in 1968. So, a lot of. really freaky exciting stuffs going on. in the world. >> That's right. Uh Billy Jean King was and. we should also point out that you know. as far as wage disparity uh in 1968 uh. if you were a professional tennis player. you earned two to three times as much as. a woman. >> Mhm. >> Um and when the sport grew that gap.

actually grew. It didn't get um more. narrow which is was pretty startling at. the time. >> Mhm. >> Uh but Billy Jean King was born in 1943. and by the time this event uh rolled. around she was huge. Um she had won 10. grand slam titles by 73. Uh she was. number one ranked tennis player six. different times. Um in 197 or by 1973. Uh was the 1972 Sports Illustrated. Sports person of the year and like you. said was a real feminist activist kind.

of from the jump. Uh I think there was a. story from when she was a kid when she. was 11 or 12 a junior player. She was. not allowed to be in a in a photo like a. tournament photo because she wasn't. wearing the tennis skirt. She was. wearing shorts and they said, "You can't. be in this picture." And immediately. little 12-year-old Billy Jean King was. like, "What the hell?". >> Yeah. She was like, "These are squirts.". They said, "That doesn't count, >> right? That's not a thing yet.". >> So, uh, yeah. And one thing about Billy. Jean King from a bunch of stuff I read. and saw about her is that like she's she.

was tireless and still is, she's a. tireless activist for women's rights. Like she didn't ever slow down. and that. when you kind of learn about all the. side stuff she did to promote women in. tennis and women's rights in general, um. like on top of that, bear in mind she's. one of the top tennis players in the. world by dominating in tennis. So that. takes a lot of practice, a lot of. dedication, and she's doing all this. other stuff at the same time. So she's.

like basically the definition of. tireless. >> Yeah. And she was she was doing this in. the 1960s because all those. accomplishments I mentioned was by 73. But in 1966, >> she was the number one women's tennis. player in the world and she was making. $100 a week as a playground instructor. at Los Angeles State College. So the. money the athletes were making was not. anything like it is today. And it was. way way worse for women. Uh, I think.

that first open you mentioned at. Wimbledon in ' 68, uh, she won she won. that tournament and won 750 pounds. Uh, Rod Lever, the men's champion, won 2,000. pounds. >> Mhm. >> And she was like in ' 68, she was like, "This is totally unfair. What's going. on?". >> Yeah. And money comes up a lot. Um, it. was the reason why is it's an easy. shortorthhand to basically point out. women's um lesser treatment compared to. men. Uh, it's also something that most. people can just kind of wrap their minds. around like, yeah, 750 pounds is a lot.

less than 2,000 pounds, but they're both. the champions. Why? Well, that doesn't. make any sense. So, money is a big focus. throughout this, but it's not just. because everybody wants money, you know? >> Yeah, totally. Uh, so in 1970, uh, Billy. Jean King, uh, was like, we need to do. something sort of official and sort of. big here. So she looked to a woman named. Glattis Heldman who was the founder of. World Tennis Magazine. Uh she was a very. big prominent uh figure in the tennis.

world overall. Um obviously because of. world tennis and also because she was at. the time the mother of a very high. ranked player named Julie Heldman. That. was her daughter. >> So she was a good person to go to and. they said here's what we can do to make. a splash. Um, there's a tennis. tournament coming up called the Pacific. Southwest Open in LA where they're. paying the the prize purse for the men's. champion is 12,500. The purse for the. women's champion is $1,500, which I mean, looking back at the.

Wimbledon disparity, that wasn't too bad. compared to this, you know? >> Yeah. >> Uh, and this was even after that. And. they said, "Why don't we boycott this. tournament?" And Glattis Heldman said, "You know what? why don't we start our. own tournament that competes with this. tournament? And everyone went, "Oo, this. sounds exciting.". >> Yeah. So, yeah, that was a huge step. beyond what they were originally. thinking of. And so, um, the US Tennis. Association, at the time, they were. called the US Lawn Tennis Association,

Ola. Um, they were like, "Hey, go ahead and. try that, but we are going to suspend. you. We might ban you from tournament. tournament play. We're going to erase. your rankings. It's like it's going to. be a bad jam. If you guys go off and. form your own uh tournament and that it. took a lot of bravery because not all. women tennis players signed on for this. In fact, only nine, including Billy Jean. King, said, "You know what? We're going. to go do this anyway." Uh, and so they. signed contracts with Heldman. And so.

they became pros on this other tour, which protected them from getting um. punished on the USLTA tour. Um and they. started their own championship which. eventually was um I think supported and. sponsored by Virginia Slims Cigarettes. >> Yeah, that's right. Uh and we should. mention that contract was for a dollar. each. So they they clearly were doing. this to to make a statement and not to. make a ton of money, >> right? >> Um but Philip Morris, yeah, they stepped. in because they there was a recent.

federal ban on advertising on TV and. radio for cigarettes. And so they said, "We got to get our name out there. somewhere. So, let's call this the, you. know, we've got these Virginia Slims. with its quasi feminist message. You've. come a long way, baby. That was our ad. slogan for a long time. >> Long time. >> And tennis, the, you know, the original. nine is what they were called. Those. tennis players that that went along or. the eight that went along with Billy. Jeene King and said they were like, "Me, I mean, we're athletes. It's a little. weird to have a cigarette sponsor, >> but we need a sponsor, so we'll take. it." And that tournament went over.

really well and it was so successful. that they said, "Hey, why don't we start. our own circuit?" And they had the. Virginia Slim Circuit. Uh there were. eight more tournaments that they. sponsored. >> And uh the original nine, you know, they. initially did follow through with their. threat to like ban them. Um the USLTA, yeah, the USLTA at the time. >> Um but they said, "Oh, actually they're. they're doing so well over there. Uh. we're in trouble now, so we need to join. forces." and they uh gave up and they.

merged with the Virginia Slim events. >> Yeah. And I'm not usually one to defend. tobacco producers, but I saw a uh PBS I. think American Masters clip that was. interviewing um some of the original. nine and they were like Virginia Slims. showed up like they knew how to market, they knew how to get buzz, they put a. ton of money behind advertising and like. they this was not like a just a whatever. thing to them. They were actually a. really great sponsor for this. So yeah,

>> they um yes, these nine women and I. think eventually more joined. They were. they were like, "If you won't include. us, we're just going to go create our. own thing." Like they worked at it like. that and it actually paid off in in. aces. >> Yeah, for sure. Um. uh Hey, you want to take a break? >> Hey. Yeah. >> All right, we'll be back right after. this.

Stop. All right. So, where we left off, uh, the original nine went off and formed. their own Virginia Slim Circuit. uh they. were uh you know endangered the US LTA.

such that they partnered with them. eventually. >> but uh money started flowing in a little. bit in 1971. Billy Jean King was the. first female athlete uh of any sport at. all to make more than $100,000. um a lot of money in $171. Still a lot less than her peers on the. male side of the equation. Uh and so she. was still, you know, banging that drum. She wasn't like, "All right, our work is. done." Um and in 1973 before Wimbledon. that year, uh she got together in London.

where Wimbledon is in a hotel room with. 63 I guess it was probably a large. meeting room. >> Yeah. >> Um 63 other uh women tennis players and. they said, "All right, we're doing this. today. Um we're going to form the WTA, the Women's Tennis Association. We're. going to have an actual union in place. where we can, you know, do what unions. do and and stick up for ourselves.". >> Yes. Um, they threatened to boycott like. pretty much immediately after they. formed the WTA. They said that they were.

going to boycott the US Open if we don't. get equal prize money for women and men. Uh, and I believe that was successful. They got the US Open to agree. Um, and. it was um, this is like things are. moving along for for women's equality in. tennis at this time, right? So, it's a. huge focus of conversation with tennis. >> Yeah. I mean, it was all over the media. Uh, everywhere you looked, it was about. sort of equal pay, equal rights, and. that was in the regular world, and all.

of a sudden it was now like in the. sports world in a big way. >> Well, put. >> So, now we're going to talk a little bit. about our our our I'm going to put it in. scare quotes. Our villain, Mr. Bobby. Riggs, who was uh I tell you what, man. I mean, if if you it is very Andy. Calfmanesque. If you watch interviews. with this guy, he's not if he's nothing, he is entertaining. >> for sure. Um, he was a a true great. tennis player at one time, uh, shortly. after World War II. I think he was the.

number one men's player in 1946 and. 1947. >> And not just from like December to. January, like both of those years, >> right? Yeah. >> Um, so he had, you know, the the um. goods to back up like this. It wasn't. just some some dude who had a tennis. racket, but after the late 40s, he. essentially like left the tour and he. started hustling and um taking bets from. essentially anybody who would who would.

play him in tennis pool. Um I we I think. you saw a 60 Minutes um clip where he. was gambling on throwing cards into a. waste basket. like he would bet on. anything. There was a quote in that 60. Minutes clip where he said um he likes. to play for big money. If he can't play. for big money, he'll play for small. money. If I can't play for small money, I won't get out of bed that day. Like. that's just what that guy did. He. gambled. He hustled. And he was known as.

a loudmouth, too. But he also seems to. be fairly um loved essentially. He was. like one of those people that you just. kind of you couldn't help but like even. though Yeah, he was a loum mouth and. trying to get you to bet him some money. >> Yeah, he was a he was a troll. Livia. called him a pre- internet troll and. that's exactly what he was. Um it it. seemed like a bit of an act and a bit of. a shtick to get attention like we said, but um he would say things uh you know, a woman's place is in the kitchen and. the bedroom and not necessarily in that.

order. or women play 25% as good as men. so they should get 25% of the money men. get. Um, I was reading, I think it was. a, uh, oh, was it Esquire or something, an. article about him and the whole idea of. playing Billy Jean King was birthed when. I think a reporter was just talking to. him about, you know, can men beat women. or who could beat. >> um, Billy Jean King in tennis? And he. said, I think any guy in the top 100. could beat Billy Jean King. And he went,

in fact, I think I could beat her. And. that's sort of when he seemed to hatch. this idea for publicity and money. >> Yeah. He was like, "Oh, but there's good. action there.". >> Yeah. Totally. >> He um So, yes. So, like he said these. things. Actually, at least one of those. quotes is from one of his. autobiographies. >> Yeah. >> So, like he wrote this stuff down. He. wasn't this wasn't just stuff he started. saying when he decided to play Billy. Jeene King. He was already known as a. male chauvinist, but yes, he was a um an. attention hound, and this was again a. way that he figured out how to do this.

Um, so he he he started publicly. challenging Billy Jean King. He's like. in his mid50s. She's in her late 20s. prime and she's like, "No, that's okay. I'm too busy." And again, remember like. she was genuinely tireless organizing. the Virginia Slim Circuit and like. creating the Women's Tennis Association. all the while winning all of these. championships and grand slams. So she. had a legitimate excuse like I'm too. busy. The the thing is is there was also.

like a a case you could make that she. saw very clearly like I don't know if I. have that much to gain um by playing. this and I have a lot to lose for the. women's movement. I could easily set it. back if I lose. So there was a she had. good reason to kind of avoid this as. long as she could. >> Yeah. Uh it's sort of a lose-lose. proposition for her. Um if she beats. him, everyone's like, "Well, of course. you beat this old man, right?" uh and. that's how he probably would have played. it up as and well we'll see what.

happened but uh and if she loses that's. of course like looks terrible to be. beaten by the old man right. >> so she was wise to avoid it I think. >> um but there was another woman uh in. fact she was the uh I think she was the. number one player in the world women's. player in 1973 named Margaret Court uh. and Aussie and she was like she wasn't. super active in the politics of women's. sports and she was like yeah sure I'll. play them um she stepped right up. And. in May of 1973, uh this was in San Diego.

or outside San Diego, they played a. three- set match where $10,000 uh and. about 10 million people, a lot of people. tuned into this first one on CBS. >> Uh 3,500 people were there live. >> and he beat her. He beat her 6261 by. playing. >> I want to say a certain thing, but I. can't. He He was playing like a punk. >> Oh yeah. He's playing junk shots and. like drop shots and he wasn't playing. like sort of real tennis. He was playing. sort of joke tennis and when you're.

playing against a player that can hit. aggressive strong shots and you're just. plunking them over the net like it's. going to you can't play tennis that way. if you're a real player and it it threw. her off her game. She got in his head. I. think the moment was a little too big. for her. I don't think she realized how. much attention there was going to be and. she ended up getting beat pretty badly. >> Yeah, he got in her head, right? >> Yeah. So, yes, this is called the. Mother's Day Massacre because it was. held on Mother's Day and I mean it was. really bad. But there's a point that I. want you to hang on to for later. As.

much of a punk as he played, he didn't. play actual serious tennis. He was. playing jokey tennis to win. He took. that that match very seriously. He. trained for months ahead of time. He was. playing or training like 10 to 12 hours. a day every day. um he really trained. and by the time he was by the time the. game came around he knew he was going to. beat Margaret Court. So just keep that. in mind how hard he trained for that. Okay. >> Yeah. And also uh we should point out.

like at the very beginning of that match. to open it up. He presented her with a. bouquet of roses and she curtsied back. to him and Billy Jin King is watching. this just like. you know furious inside like she's like. ah he's play and she in fact said later. that she played right into his hands. there and I would have grabbed him and. kissed him. Uh if he gets dirty I can. get tough too. So she hated the fact. that Margaret Court went out there and. sort of curtsied to him and took the. roses and and then lost on on national.

TV, I guess international TV. >> And so she was like, "All right, you. know what? I'm I'm going to do it. I'm. going to step up and I'm going to I'm. going to play Bobby Rigs. It's my turn.". >> Yeah. So she agreed to do this. Um and. it became immediately um buzzworthy, I. guess, is what you would call it if. you're into that kind of thing. >> That's right. Uh, the liber. is how they dubbed it. >> Yeah. So, like I said, it's immediately. generating buzz. Um, Bobby Rig starts. giving television interviews to any.

camera that will stand still long. enough. And he's a magnet for that kind. of stuff because again, he's a. loudmouth. He's saying horrible things. about women. Um, he's accepting like the. male chauvinist pig um moniker like with. pride or whatever. Um, and he's just. like one of those like he would talk a. mile a minute. He had so much energy. He. was just a little a little kind of. squirly guy. Kind of like Richard. Simmons. Did you ever see Richard. Simmons when he would go on Letterman? >> Oh yeah. >> Okay. So the way that Letterman kind of.

regarded Richard Simmons. >> affectionately but also like this guy's. he's moving around a lot. Um it was it. he was like that but amped up on like. speed essentially. So he was a magnet. for cameras and he was giving interviews. all over the place. >> Yeah. And he was also, you know, he's. adding hype for the event obviously by. saying things like, you know, she's a. woman. She they don't have the emotional. stability, she'll choke. >> Uh he added more stakes. He said that he. would jump from uh the London Bridge in.

Arizona or the Pasadena Bridge if he. lost. >> And you know, he was all over the place. He was on the cover of Time magazine. that year in September. It was a. caricature of him. >> wearing a male chauvinist uh badge. And. then there was a picture of a pig and a. banner that said the happy hustler. So. it it was all working exactly as he. planned. Uh but Billy Jean King, like if. he took that first match seriously, he. didn't take this one as seriously and. Billy Jean King was really taking it. seriously. >> Yeah. I'm not sure if he was just, you.

know, resting on his laurels because of. how badly he beat Margaret Court that he. just assumed that that was going to. translate into playing Billy Jean King. He did not train nearly as much as he. did for Billy um for Margaret Court. Essentially, he was out partying in the. leadup to all of this. He was also. really really getting more and more. offensive. >> um as as things went on, right? >> Oh, you're going to leave this one for. me?

>> Yeah. One of the things he did was he. showed up uh to practice one day with. the cameras there uh with holes cut out. in his shirt uh so his nipples could. show. and he said that Billy Jean King. would look better in this. >> Uh, and she came out in public and she. was like, "This guy is a is a creep,". which was, you know, about as tough as. you could be in in language back then. >> Yeah. Publicly. >> And it was at a press conference with. them together. And he said, "Well, you. should take that back." And she said, "Nope. Creep stands." And she said. later, I saw um in in an interview she.

said that um like she didn't take him. seriously, but she knew that there were. men out there that took him seriously. and that he had crossed a line and she. needed to make sure that that that was. demonstrated that she was not okay with. that one. >> Yeah, I think she kind of played it all. just right. It was really pretty savvy. stuff on her end. >> For sure. So, uh I say we take is this. our second break? >> Yeah, second break. >> All right, so the gun is going to go off. when we come back.

I wonder how many people are like, "What. is he talking about when he keeps saying. the gun is going to go off whenever act. three comes around. Well, I would say.

study your check off friend. >> That's right. And not your check off. friend. Your check off comma friend, >> right? Not the friend that you're like, I got to hang out with him and then you. do real quick you check them off your. to-do list. Not that guy. >> Yeah, we all have check off friends. >> Yeah, I'm sure I'm a lot of people's. check off friends. >> No, no, no, no, no. Uh, all right. So, where are we? Are we at match time. basically, which was turned into a. complete circus by the way? >> Yes. This is September 20th, 1973. It's.

at the Houston Astrodome. >> Oh, man. >> 30,000 people showed up in person to see. this. I saw all over the place, including Britannica, that 90 million. people watched it around the world. >> That's Yeah, I think Livia had 50. million people, but I watched an. interview with her with uh I mean, serious journalist. It was it was Kathy. Lee and Hod. and they said 90 million. Uh and they. were just drunk on white wine at 9 in. the morning or whatever. So I trust.

them. >> Man, that was a weird time, wasn't it? >> It was a very weird time. Uh I did want. to point out that um I looked up I was. like, "Well, how how many people see a. tennis tournament at like the grandest. stage?" And center court at Wimbledon is. about 15,000 people. So this was double. that. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Uh plus it was in the beautiful new. Astrodome. So. >> Oh yeah. So great. >> Um, so the odds were very much in favor. on Bobby Riggs. Um, the odds were six. to1 that Rigs would win. Mhm.

>> Um, and this was like the whole thing. was kind of presented in the media as. like the the battle of the sexes thing, the man versus woman and every juvenile. joke or, you know, quip or whatever you. could make out of that. That is how the. whole thing was being promoted. That's. how it was being played up in the media. It was not like this is a very serious. thing that may set women's um women's. rights back or move them forward. It. None of that was was in there. It was.

all just this almost tongue andcheek. approach to it and that's how the whole. thing if you were a viewer that's what. you were kind of shown. >> Yeah, for sure. Um and that's a good. thing to point out. Uh there was. Hollywood was involved. There were a lot. of actors and singers and stuff that. were in a celebrity tournament. beforehand. They were really milking it. Um they when they came in the University. of Houston band performed the song. Conquest uh which is an anthem from the.

1947 movie Captain from Castile. Uh. that's when Bobby Riggs came in. Uh they. played Helen Ready's I Am Woman when. Billy Jean King came in. >> Uh Livia pointed out that John Wayne, Bill Cosby, and OJ Simpson were in. attendance. And I had probably 13. different comments or jokes written out. for that. But I'm just gonna let that. that trio stand without comment. >> Stands on its own. >> Yeah, I think so. >> Um, so ABC made a fat $1.2 million off.

of ads for this um match. >> Yeah. >> Astradome got about half that and um. people paying admission price. >> Yeah. >> And the So with the Margaret Court. Mother's Day Massacre game that was. played um under women's rules in that. there were three sets. That's how. women's tennis matches are played, three. sets. Men's tennis matches are played. five sets. Billy Jeene King was like, "No, we're going to play five sets. Best. of five essentially." I love it.

>> So, there were five, which is smart. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Uh she Yeah. She. another thing that you'll see uh that's. happened uh recently is um sometimes so. a woman's court might be smaller than. the man's court which makes it harder. for the man to land a a ball in in. bounds. >> like in a battle of the sexes match. >> Yes. Thank you. There was nothing like. that. This was like a men's match that. Billy Jean King was playing against. Bobby Riggs. >> Oh yeah. Well, she was like, "I got this. 55year-old guy." Like, he wants the the.

the three set match, so we're going to. go five cuz I'm in great shape, >> right? >> Uh Bobby Rigs enters on a carriage uh. pulled by women that are outfitted as. Bobby's bosom buddies. Um how did Billy. Jin King come in? >> Uh she came in on a basically a platform. carried by men and togas. I also saw as. Egyptians, like Egyptian servants. They. were shirtless essentially and they were. brrawy dudes. So like both. >> probably not her idea.

>> No, but she was going along with it, right? She played along. Yeah. Well, you. were saying that she was taking it. seriously and she was, but she was also. like willing to play along with this, too. Like she wasn't just some like. stick in the mud, you know? >> Yeah, totally. >> So, um, just very appropriately, Bobby. uh Riggs was sponsored by Sugar Daddy. Candy, >> right? And uh he presented Billy Jean. King with a two- foot long sugar daddy. You remember those? They would just pull. your fillings right out of your head. >> Totally. >> Um and so King was like, "Oh, I have a.

gift for you, too." It was a piglet that. she named uh Bobby Riggs. >> because he was a male chauvinist pig. >> And um don't worry about the pig. She uh. coordinated with the promoter Jerry. Parankio, very legendary promoter. um. that the pig would not be eaten or. harmed. It would go to live on a farm. afterward. And it did. >> That says everything you need to know. about Billy Jean King. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> She thought of everything. >> she did. She She crossed her tees and. dotted her oinks.

>> That's right. So, uh, of course, it's. 1973, so you want to get the best in the. business at the time to do the. playby-play. So, they got none other. than Howard Coell. Uh, initially they. had a tennis promoter and anti-feminist. named Jack Kramer who was going to do. they were going to do sort of a he. versus she commentary and he was going. to be on rig side and one of the. original nine uh Rosie Cassals was going. to be on Billy Jean King's side. >> Uh, but Kramer and this also speaks to. Billy Jean King. He was one of the guys.

behind that original tournament that. they uh that they um protested and. wouldn't play in the Pacific Southwest. Open where they said, "Oh yeah, well. we're going to ban you then." So she was. like, "I'm hey, this is all fun and. games and everything, but if that jerk. is involved, I'm not even going to do. this." So they pulled uh Kramer off the. um off the broadcast. >> Yeah. And they didn't have Rosie Casal. speak, too. And I'm really glad they. didn't do that. That's I mean that's. it's a it's a gimmick and it's. understandable but it would have made.

the whole thing suck. >> They brought in Jean Scott who was the. um publisher of Tennis Week and he just. gave commentary like it was a regular. tennis match which is kind of what you. wanted in this one. >> Agreed. >> So I mean imagine Dennis Miller and. Dennis Miller calling a tennis match. You don't want that. >> Yeah. >> But I mean think about it. Whose idea. was it to put them on Monday Night. Football? On the one hand, it's. brilliant. On the other, it's like what? >> Yeah, that was weird. >> But it was It lasted for years, too.

It's not like it was a couple of games. >> Yeah. No, he I think it was the full. season, wasn't it? >> I think it was more than that. >> Oh, was it? Yeah, that was weird. >> Yeah. So, um, the game is on. essentially. That's That's the point. we've reached here. >> That's right. Uh, so Bobby Riggs takes a. 3-2 lead in the first set and later on. Billy Jeene King would say like I was in. trouble. I knew I was making some. mistakes. I was in my head a little bit. and I knew that I could not give this.

first set away basically. Like he needed. to get that set for his psychological. standing. >> And so that first set was so so. important for her. So she knew that she. had to win it. She was down 3-2 and she. came back and beat him and won that. first set 6 to4 which was a huge blow to. his psyche. >> Yeah. She said that she could tell that. that had gotten to him when they. switched sides. Um so she also changed. her playing style. Normally she would be.

like she'd want to win the point as as. quickly and efficiently as possible. Instead she started drawing volleys out. >> and basically put the ball in one corner. and then put the ball in the other. corner. So, she had this old man running. back and forth. >> chasing down these balls to purposefully. tire them out. I mean, that's just so. cool that people are capable of doing. that, you know, like I want the ball to. go right here, so I'm going to make it. go right there with this racket even. though the ball's coming at me at 70 m. an hour. >> Yeah, for sure. So, she wore him out.

Uh, by the end, he was talking about. hand cramps. Uh, the the levity had kind. of lessened. Um because like you said. this 55-year-old was an old old man, >> right? So remember we. >> so old, >> right? Not 54, 55. >> Okay. Okay. I got a couple more weeks. >> So um Billy Jean King won and she won. like convincingly 64 63 63. So remember. best out of five. She beat him in three.

straight sets. >> Yeah. >> Um and she got her 100,000 check from no. less than George Foreman. Yeah. >> Who I read had hoped to use Bobby Rigs. the pig to demonstrate his new type of. indoor grill, but was disappointed that. he wasn't allowed to. >> Oh no. >> Um and so this was it was just an. immediate splash. Remember this is a. media spectacle. Everybody knows about. this. 90 million people are watching. So. um the media just got right in on it. again to let everybody know Billy Jean. King won and let's celebrate her as a.

pro tennis player and that's it. >> That's right. Uh, I think we know Josh's. koi voice by now. Um, that's not at all. how it was reported. Of course, they. kept reporting sort of in the lowest. common denominator way. Uh, the AP said. that screaming delirious women's livers. lit up more brightly than the rocket. shooting Astradome scoreboard. Even my. beloved New York Times said, uh, King. collapsed, tears in her eyes and her. husband's arms, uh, adding, um, later,

all of a sudden she was a champion, a. woman, and a little girl all at the same. time. That one brings like my eyes water. from that one. >> Yeah, that's tough. >> That's so much worse than the Astrodome. scoreboard ride. I mean, neither one are. great. >> Yeah, >> that one is just like they meant that. They were trying to like really be. poignant there. And it's just like good. god. >> Yeah, they missed the mark. >> The thing about Bobby Riggs is he wasn't. like, well, she, you know, she obviously. is some freak woman who who beat me.

That's the only woman who could beat me. He did the opposite. He he accepted the. defeat with dignity and grace. >> Yeah, >> he had a saw that he had a thing where. he hopped over the net, win or lose. after the end of every um. >> match. >> And he did. He hopped right over the the. net and went up to her and he said um. confidentially to her that he. underestimated her. >> Yeah. >> And then in the press conference, he. went on to basically say the same thing. like she beat him very clearly. >> Yeah. He said she was too strong for me.

Uh there have since been rumors that he. threw the match as a gambler with six. to1 odds against that he threw the match. and bet against himself. Um there was a. report in I think 2013 ESPN uh dug into. that and that there were like mafia. figures he was working with to rig the. odds. >> Uh we'll never know the truth, but um. Bobby Rig said he didn't throw it. Um. Billy Jean King said that I don't think. he threw it. uh like she could tell what. was going on emotionally on that court.

>> and could tell that he wanted to win and. that he was losing. >> Um you know he might not have prepared. like he should have and I guess we'll. never know the truth but uh my money's. on she she beat him. >> Yeah, mine too. But there's there's the. that rumor does have legs. Like he did. hang out with mob guys. He was a huge. gambler. The idea was that the this he. was indebted to the mob like a hundred. grand for in gambling debts and they. would wipe it clean if he threw this and. that he was also betting on himself. Um.

and his son said it's possible. I don't. really think that's true but it's. possible. Although his best friend is. like I won't even entertain that that's. possible. Like he just didn't do that. Yeah. >> But one of the re things that people. point to is he was making some terrible. mistakes during the game. So either she. got in his head and he was rattled or he. was throwing it. It just seems like the. general consensus is that no, he. >> it seems pretty fringe that to to. genuinely believe that he threw the.

match. >> Yeah, I agree. Um which I I I saw bits. of that movie. I never saw the whole. thing. >> Um the casting was incredible. Like. Steve Carell and Emma Stone were kind of. perfect. Uh, I don't think the movie was. reviewed like super favorably, but it. looked okay. >> It was supposedly very true to life, actually. >> Yeah. Yeah. Billy Jean King, at least. she told Hoda and Kathy Lee that it was. pretty true to life. She said that she. said they got the essence of it. Um, she. said it's a movie, of course, but they. they nailed the essence.

>> Man, have you seen Beonia? >> Oh, boy. Yeah, >> that is one of my new favorite movies. That is so good. I did not like I can. never remember his name. What is it? >> I'm glad you watched that. Oh, Jesse. Plymouth. No, no, no. The director. >> Oh. Oh. Oh. Uh, Jorgus Lanos. >> Thank you. >> Was that him? >> Let me try saying it, too. Jorgus. Lanthamos. I don't think I've ever tried. it because I've always been like, I'm. going to screw this up. >> Well, I might have screwed it up, but. that's what I said. >> I don't think so. I think you got it. Anyway, I did not like Poor Things.

>> Um, and I was like, I don't know. Cuz I. liked everything leading up to that, but. not this. And then I saw this. I'm like, he's back. >> Yeah, >> it's a great I told you I texted you. dude to see kinds of kindness, too. Have. you seen that one yet? >> I still have not now. I've been watching. just tons of rift tracks. >> Yeah, it's hard to get out of that. >> cycle once you get in. >> For sure. >> Uh, all right. So, back to this after. the uh back to the Battle of the Sexes. After this, uh, he wanted to kind of. keep the media spotlight on him. So, he.

tried to jump off the London Bridge in. Arizona, but the sheriff there like, you. can't do that. So, he had his picture. taken on the lake below it in a raft. Uh. Billy Jean King went on to just keep. being Billy Jean King. In 1974, she. founded the Women's Sports Foundation, which is a nonprofit for women's and and. girls in athletics. And um she would end. up sort of very publicly um coming out. of the closet after being married for a. long time to a guy, not the Larry King,

but her Larry King, >> right? >> Uh in 1981, her longtime manager and. assistant Marilyn Barnett, it was very. sad what happened. and she filed a. lawsuit against her uh which revealed. their affair that she had from they had. from 72 to 79 because she had fallen. from a balcony of Billy Jing's uh Billy. Jin King's house in Malibu and lost the. use of her legs and said that hey Billy. Jin King promised to give me that house. and support me financially. So she she. took her to court and it got really. messy. Yeah, I saw so the the fall from.

the house in Malibu I saw was a an. attempted suicide and that she had black. Marilyn Barnett had blackmailed Larry. King and Billy Jean King before the. lawsuit basically said, "Hey, if you. don't want this to come out, let's. settle before I actually go public with. it." They didn't. She went public with. it. And then to her great credit, after. being outed in 198 what? >> 81. >> 81, >> um, Billy Jean King said, "You know. what? We'd never promised her the Malibu.

house, but yes, I'm gay. Larry and I. have a uh an open marriage and um we're. actually going to stay together for the. time being. And they stayed together. until 1987. >> And they divorced because um Billy Jean. King fell for Elana Clauss, a fellow. tennis player, and they ended up getting. married in 2018. So this is enormous. She was outed. She hadn't outed herself. She her choice to to do so was removed, but she stood behind it. She didn't she.

didn't deny it. She didn't deny who she. was. She said, "Yep, I'm I'm gay.". >> Yeah, it was pretty great. Um, as far as. equality and and pay and pro sports, uh, that's obviously still a thing. Uh, it. was 2007 when all the Grand Slams agreed. to pay women equally in tennis and they. still don't in some of some of the other. big events. I think uh just a couple. years ago at the 2024 Canadian Open. there was a $5.9 million pool for the. men and $2.5 mill million pool for.

women. Um and if you know if you come. back with an argument of like yeah well. the you know the men's events are uh. they get more viewers and and more. advertising because they're in those. better time slots then you kind of just. said it yourself. It's a lot of it has. to do with the fact that they're in. those better time slots and they tend to. schedule the women's events in in lesser. time slots and so they don't get as much. advertising. Uh they don't have, you. know, uh great maternity leave and uh. professional tennis for women. So it's, you know, there's still battles to be.

fought, but Billy Jean King is is still. out there fighting them. >> Uh one last little thing, Chuck, that. always struck me. Um before he died in. 1995, um I think like the night before he. died, uh Billy Jean King visited Bobby. Riggs to say goodbye. >> Yeah, it was pretty great. They had a. lifelong, you know, tie and friendship. >> Mhm. Uh so that's it. That's the Battle. of the Sexus. Uh it was uh it was great. How about that?

>> Yeah. Uh, I feel like um I feel like Tim. Robbins in Anchor Man. Remember the P. he's like, you know, we at PBS are. really down with Women's Lip. >> Yeah. Also, Steve Perrell was in that. >> Yeah. He he loves lamp. >> He loves lamp. >> Uh, since Chuck said he loves Lamp, I. tricked him into it. He just unlocked. listener mail. >> Yeah. This is Listener Mail where uh I'm. going to apologize. >> Oh, boy. to uh to Epha from Ireland. because apparently we have um here and.

there um dabbled in Irish eraser in our. show which is something that is a total. accident and something that I'm going to. be more aware of moving forward. And. here's the email. >> Okay. >> Hi guys, longtime listener here. I'm so. sad to hear two Irish eraser moments in. one episode. In the Third Man Syndrome. episode, you use the example of the. Endurance Expedition to show how it. works, and you called Ernest Shackleton. British, and if I'm not wrong, uh, also. Tom Green, but both men were reborn and.

Irish. Uh, Shackleton was born in, uh, Kilkkey, uh, County, Kildair. Did I say. that right? I think I did. >> You said Kilkkey. >> Yeah, Kilkkey County, Kildair, just. under an hour from Dublin City. And was. born in uh Aniscol County Kerry. Uh this. is a sore spot for Irish people as we. are often uh so often called British and. we don't take it so well. Uh example, look up uh Killian Murphy also being. called British. But we will forgive you,

however. And that is from Epha. And uh. Epha, that is is me being an ignorant uh. person. And I certainly know there. there's a difference and I I have a hard. time keeping track sometimes, but I need. to I need to do better at that. So, apologies. >> Nice work, Chuck. I'm sure I've done. that before, too. So, I want to. apologize, too. >> Great. Two apologies in one. >> Yes. And who is that from? >> Uh, that was from EA, spelled A O I F E. >> Beautiful. Thanks a lot, Epha. Uh, and.

if you want to be like EA and call us. out on something, we stand for that. You. can send it in an email to stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.