The Ballad of Grit | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry sitting. in too and this is stuff you should. know I got no no addition to label this. one I'm just going to say it's stuff you. should know and leave it at that well. can we continue the conversation we're. having right before we hit record.

yes cuz you said save. it well go ahead well we said grit and. Jerry said cheese grits and you said. Gross and I said cheese grits gross and. you went. yeah and I went what and you said save. it well here we are again and and yes I. reiterate I think cheese grits are gross. so grits period or just the addition of. cheese to. Grits um typically grits let me qualify. that there are like highend grits with.

the right kind of shrimp and the right. kind of cheese mixed in okay I would eat. those but typically like grits out of. the box it's like oh god really it's. like you just chewed up a bunch of. gravel and vomited it out into a. bowl are you cooking them CU you know. grits are. soft uh well then I'm eating them at the. wrong places oh okay all right I don't I. maybe it's cuz I was raised in Ohio or. something like that people up north look. down on grits um not sure why but I'm.

not sure maybe that percolated into my. being I don't know you know what there. that might be a good shorty cuz I I grew. up in the South and I I think there is a. northern anti-g grit bias there. definitely is maybe it's because they're. called. grits I think that's part of it I mean I. associate chicken with grits but not. like like chickens eating grits or like. pecking around in the grit it just. doesn't seem like something you'd want. to eat but that's not at all what we're. talking about nor are we talking about. the the clever t-shirt that you used to.

be able to buy at Cracker Barrel so that. a grits that stood for girls raised in. the South uh I never saw those well you. didn't spend enough time at Cracker. Barrel no I was I was protesting you. remember the protest I did too when I. was a teenager my parents wanted to go. there it was at the height of their like. whole anti- gay thing and I was like. okay and I went in and put on a bunch of. my mom's makeup I was like let's go yeah. that one sticks with me because and I.

still think it's hysterical as a chant. do you remember the chant no it was uh. we're here we're queer and we're not. eating. breakfast I don't I don't think I heard. that I think of that every time I pass a. cracker bell on the highway I still. think about that chat well yeah that I I. guess it just kind of went away right I. don't I think their anti-gay policy. maybe was reversed who knows I don't. know I just I just think that chant is. funny and awesome it is a great chant. for sure um but yeah we're we're talking.

about an entirely different kind of grit. no uh we're talking about then we're. going to get specific about um sort of. how it came back into uh fashion as far. as education goes but we're talking. about grit as uh an. adjective or well no it's still a. noun yeah gritty would be an adjective I. think but grit as in oh you got you got. True Grit you got real determination and.

and real stick tutiven that's my. favorite one stick tutiven yeah that's. the mouthful huh yeah it's anything that. has to do with perseverance and you know. some people seem to have it better than. others some people seem to be willing to. just hang in there through the highs and. the lows and just keep going um and that. is what you know the average person. would call grit but the specific vein of. grit that we're talking about was if you. took that just kind of folk.

understanding of that quality of some. people's personalities mhm and turned it. into a a horrible. idea about trying to figure out how to. teach that to kids and then even worse. grading teachers in schools on how. gritty their kids. are then that's what we're talking about. today well I guess I see where you fall. on. this I have where you fall on grits I. have a very nuanced in um complex view.

of this whole topic okay good well you. know when you first sent this um down. the Old Pike as a as an idea for a show. I figured it had to stand for something. uh I didn't know it was literally just. grit I figured they took that word and. made it into an acronym uh to apply. academically but it's not it's just grit. it doesn't mean girls raised in the in. the right the school they didn't well.

there's no s so they just kind of ends. there suddenly that's right but where it. started was with a University of. Pennsylvania psychologist named Angela. Duckworth yeah who uh I mean I think. she's pretty great and I think she I. watched that Ted Talk and I read a lot. about her and I think uh it's. interesting to see her come up with I. think a pretty good idea and then I. think kind of the me media went a little.

too far with this stuff and the. government went a little too far and. then to the point where she was like Hey. listen maybe we should back off some of. this stuff uh grit was just sort of this. notion that if a child has you know. determination and perseverance and stick. toess then they can uh that that could. matter as much or more as like just. basic smarts. sometimes yeah for sure um and I I feel. the same way about her too I think she's. a she's a good person and the way that I.

kind of envisioned what happened was. that she ran up to everybody and said. hey everybody I just figured out this. new awesome thing about psychology and. everybody said great give it to us we're. going to apply school funding nationally. to that she's like well wait wait I just. I just started looking into they like. too late we already started this yeah. exactly I feel like it kind of got out. of hand for her as well as we'll see she. definitely work to kind of like rain. things in but it just got wildly out of. hand very quickly but the whole thing.

started when she was a math teacher she. was a math teacher first and then. stopped teaching math to go uh study. psychology at the University of. Pennsylvania like you said um and the. whole thing that kind of inspired her. was noticing that some of her students. who had lower IQs because teachers know. that about their students right have it. on file yeah right uhhuh they're like. you shouldn't be doing this well in math. she she noticed that some of the kids. who had lower cues were still doing.

better in math and she started paying. attention and she realized that those. kids had some sort of thread of. perseverance to them so she started. studying that that was the premise of. her Graduate Studies in Psychology and. it it led to this concept of grit and. the whole thing that really kind of. changed everything was this idea that. you could actually test for it you could. you could detect levels of grit and.

possibly if you could do that you might. actually be able to teach people how to. have more grit how to persevere in the. face of hardship and keep going yeah and. and I think it started out innocently. enough because I think the order it was. it went down was um identify it by in at. least in her case uh initially with a. questionnaire self-reported. questionnaires um which is students are. answering questions like uh with answers. like you know I'm a hard worker or I.

really like to finish projects uh I. don't get discouraged easily things like. that and she noticed hey there's a big. correlation here between kids who answer. thusly and kids who are the leaders in. the classroom kids who are achieving. more and sort of the first. uh claim as far as like being a a you. know a graduate student studying this. they can't she can't just say like hey. grit's awesome uh it has to be sort of.

Quantified right so hey I think I can. actually measure this stuff through. these. questionnaires and it can correlate to. you know future success as a human yeah. so she and a couple of colleagues. published an article in. 2007 and um it was like if you could. have like a summer. blockbuster like academic article this. was it it was as big as they come I'm. sure they hold those off for like June.

you know Pro probably like the big. movies exactly they're like no no no we. can't publish this in February are you. crazy and then you got the osc Oscar. bait research studies toward the end of. the year exactly and that's exactly what. this kind of thing was um it contained. the scale it studied kids in a few. different um a few different locations. one was West Point Cadets in a boot camp. another was kids who had made it to the. National Spelling be um another was ivy. league students and and what they found.

when they published this paper which is. published in the Journal of Personality. and Social Psychology which is kind of a. recurring character here on stuff you. should know totally um so it's a big. time Journal it was a big deal um they. found that like the the level of grit if. you applied this grit scale if you gave. these questionnaires to these kids the. ones who scored the highest in grit were. the ones who actually finished that boot. camp or continued on further in the. nation spelling be or actually did.

better on the SATs than their other ivy. league bound um cohort like it seemed to. predict success when you took all the. other stuff away this this grittiness. predicted the success of those students. and that was just Earth moving yeah big. time article uh like I mentioned before. she did a TED Talk uh she would write a. book. grit the power of passion and persever. perance that was in.

2013 and took great pains to say like. hey you know this isn't um this isn't. kids getting lucky this isn't kids that. are super talented um it's you know it. applies a little more um at least early. on according to her uh for like you know. ex extracurricular stuff rather than. just you know math scores let's say. right um but what it did was introduced. this. idea kind of For Better or For Worse and. as see it kind of GTH and Toth away that.

it's uh that grit is just a very sort of. uh every person thing it's very. Democratic because it doesn't matter how. rich you are or how poor you are or. where you come from if you have that. stick toi inness um and you can develop. it and perhaps even teach it then you. have a greater chance and and likelihood. even of success as a student in life um. all of which you know makes sense in a.

way and as you could see though already. there are a few little holes that people. were able to pick um one of which was. like hey you're studying kids in the. National Spelling be and at West Point. and at IV League schools first off like. what does this mean for just your. average. classroom right and there's a flip side. to that too that whole Democratic idea. that you know if you just work hard and. persevere good things are going to come. to you it'll be worth all of the. hardship it's a very American pull. yourself up by your bootstraps kind of.

idea it's like a tailormade concept for. American public schools right the flip. side of it then is that if your school's. not doing very well if you're not doing. that great in school um it has nothing. to do with the fact that your school is. like grossly underfunded or that you are. the um fifth child of a single mom who. works three jobs um and you're tired all. the time when you come to school that is. to do with it you just need more grit.

and if you have more grit you can. overcome even those kind of uh hardships. as a child in school yeah which just to. be clear like of course that's possible. we see stories all the time where people. in those situations have overcome their. hardships yeah through through grit and. determination and risen to the top. sometimes they make movies about people. like this sure and that's kind of the. point um when you get into problems is. when you start broadly applying that to. like every kid in America well not only.

that yes the the kid who shows up to. school regularly tired all the time. because they're coming from that. background and the school that they're. showing up to is chronically underfunded. and they have terrible teachers and yet. they're still going and applying. themselves that's grit like pure and. simple there's nobody who would disagree. with that whether you can measure it or. not whether you can teach it or not. doesn't matter that little kid has grit. the problem is is if grit's a good thing. then you have no motivation to remove. those those barriers to fund that school.

properly to get rid of those terrible. teachers and replace them with good ones. to try to help them out with like a meal. program because grit and hardship builds. character and it helps you get places so. actually that kid's got a leg up over. the more entitled and privileged kids. who have it easy that's the whole that's. really honestly the biggest basic. problem with applying grit to American. public schools because they're so. unevenly funded in different places all. throughout the country exactly I I I.

realized we kind of got to the end there. at the beginning but I just couldn't. hold it in any longer that's okay uh you. blew your. grits holy cow you literally just made. me spit out my water. Jack W that was great I think that's the. first right on Q uh all right so maybe. we should take a break that's a good. little setup and uh we'll come back you. can collect yourself and we'll talk more. about grit after this. [Music].

[Music]. [Music]. all right so like we mentioned uh this. paper came out in.

2007 um in that paper we're going to. just you know kind of boil down that. paper a little bit because this is the. just initial sort of grit statement or. whatever um they had uh over 1500 High. School achieving adult professionals. talk about people who did the best at. their jobs around them basically in. their fields mhm and said you know uh. the ones who stick you know closely to. these long-term goals. had more success uh in fact that.

accounts for their success and as you'll. see a big differentiator and we'll get. into this more specifically between grit. and something uh called. conscientiousness is sticking with. something long-term long-term long term. and that's why one of the two big main. um categories of the grit scale are. consistency of. interests uh in other words sticking. with something right and perseverance of. effort.

uh and so that's kind of how they broke. down the two things and and even went to. Great pains to say no no no we're not. talking about conscious uh. conscientiousness we're talking about. because you can be conscientious and. still go to a different job every couple. of years right we're talking about. people that stick to something for a. long time yeah conscientiousness this is. a big this is a big issue. conscientiousness is one of the Big Five. personality traits right most mainstream. psychologists and psychi iatrist tend to.

agree on that Big Five personality trait. so I know we've talked about them before. they're conscientiousness extroversion. neuroticism agreeableness and openness. to experience and all of those have like. separate subcomponents so for example. conscientiousness can contain. self-control industriousness. responsibility reliability and you can. actually test for those kind of things. and you can using those Big Five. personality tests very often predict. how somebody's going to do in different.

situations right it's controversial. because people don't like the idea of. just boiling people down. to admittedly super detailed set of. personality traits yeah but still just a. set of personality traits people don't. really like that but academically. speaking it does seem to have like a lot. of validity right yeah the problem is. you've got conscientiousness already and. that's the thing that has always kind of. haunted Angela Duckworth and her. colleagues who came up with this concept.

of grit is that a lot of people are. saying like hey hey this is just. conscientiousness this is what you're. talking about and like you said even in. the paper that first initial paper they. they acknowledge that and recognize it. right out of the gate and they're like. no we're not talking about. conscientiousness we're talking about. something there's something different. there's an extra layer that we've been. missing this whole time and that is grit. that's what we're talking about so just. put that in your Bonnet and hang on to. it for later yeah the one thing I I can. say about that and this is just my sort.

of dumb opinion is that you know even if. it is sort of conscientiousness. reskinned a bit like like who. cares there there are plenty of times. Concepts have been repeated and uh sort. of disguised as something else and it's. um I don't know I don't think it was the. biggest deal because it's not like she. was out there you know raising you know. tens of millions of dollars for her grid. Institute um I don't know I I just. didn't think that was the biggest deal.

it's like maybe it is basically the same. thing and it's getting attention now. because it's been relabeled like what's. the big deal well yeah but she's saying. no it's not the same thing and she it at. the very least I think it muddies the. the field of study um. where it doesn't if everybody agrees to. just include grit on conscientiousness. research but they're they're they're. fighting against that they're trying to. say like no this is this is different. you can't do that it's something.

separate so I think it does kind of. Muddy things and actually it does I'm. sure it's gotten all ton of research. dollars that would have otherwise gone. to conscientiousness research too but if. it's the same thing then who cares like. do you see what I'm saying like if. everyone's saying it's the same thing as. conscientiousness then dollars going. toward quote unquote grit is still. studying. conscientiousness but I guess they're. saying like why are you going off and. studying something that is. conscientiousness calling at something. different and insisting it's different.

like what are you doing in doing that. that's why I think people have a problem. with it like even if it is the same. thing it's being promoted as something. different no no no. I I get that I think my problem is like. Mis discussions no I just think my thing. is like so the end of the sentence is. and that means that like people get. confused or like it just doesn't seem. like a bad awful thing I understand um.

the like the result wouldn't be some bad. awful thing it's just like well okay so. now they're calling in something else. yeah I I gotta I guess I think also like. if it's a field of study and you got a. bunch of people trying to to contribute. to that field having somebody come along. and just name something something. different because they wanted to and. telling everybody that it's actually. different when everybody else can see. it's the same that it just it makes it. harder on everybody else does it I don't. know I'm not an academic so I'm not sure.

but I know that the people who think. that conscientiousness and grit are the. same thing don't tend to think very. highly of grit interesting okay there's. a reason why I think maybe we just. haven't sused it out all right well. hopefully someone will let us know too. um but here's what happened this thing. blew up in a big big way like you said. it was kind of the you know uh a media. darling as far as research papers go uh. uh to the tune where there was uh one.

study that found 150 academic articles. um were about grit appeared within a. decade of that first one um I think the. 20 Publications from Duckworth have been. cited over 60,000 times according to. Google Scholar uh she got a genius Grant. or I could see that then maybe somebody. else could have gotten a genius Grant so. there's a good example well yeah also I. I mean yeah and I think just other. funding too but. just going back to that citation thing.

60,000 times for 20 papers that's about. an average of 3,000 citations so that. means seems like a lot each paper 3,000. other papers cited it as evidence to. support their point right yeah so in one. sense talk about muddying the field in. another sense that is just mindblowing. the average psychology paper from a 2021. survey was cited about 200 times this is. 3,000 times per paper um 20 times over.

it's just like it just changed. everything like everyone heard of grit. and again like there was nothing that. Angela Duckworth seemed to be doing that. was nefarious underhanded mean um you. could even make the case misguided. because she she genuinely is like I this. is something else you guys yeah um the. the problem was it came out at a really. specific point in time in the history of.

the American public education system and. it was at a time where uh No Child Left. Behind had been in place um it was a. federal program for everybody who. doesn't live in America the No Child. Left Behind Act was basically like look. there's a lot of kids who aren't getting. a good education so what we're going to. do is we're going to bring the bar down. we're going to teach everybody the same. tests and those tests are going to. determine whether your school gets. funding or not next year so that you. better make sure that they're prepared.

for the test and all kids learned for. half a decade or longer was how to Ace. this one test that came at the end of. the year that's what you learned in. school and everybody was tired of that. they they realized that we needed way. more to teach kids than something like. that and grit just happened to come. along right at that precise moment yeah. exactly so uh it was definitely a little. bit of a lightning in the bottle. situation as far as the media is. concerned. and in 2007 she said Duckworth said.

something about it being uh teachable um. she said the direct quote was I don't. think anyone's figured out how to make. people smarter but these other qualities. of grit may be teachable and sort of the. combination of No Child Left Behind and. how people were feeling about that in. general and the fact that she was saying. grit could be a teachable thing um all. of a sudden combined to where she had. genuine influence on on the the national. pulse of Education um kind of out of.

nowhere and that was um I don't think. she probably expected that but it it. happened pretty quickly yeah and one of. the other ways that it it became so. widespread um or widely known Chuck was. um grit found a champion very early on. there was a a a writer a journalist. named Paul tough who started like. writing articles on grit was just a True. Believer not quite sure how it why it. struck him like this but he really.

really got the word out about grit he. wrote a book before Duckworth even wrote. a book on grit um back in 2012 called. how children. succeed grit curiosity and the hidden. power of character and um it's basically. about Duckworth's research on grit and. how it applies how it can apply in. schools and that really kind of put the. pedal to the metal on on the grit train. yeah like uh his whole thing and you.

know sort of grits thing is about what. he called non-cognitive skills um that. stick toess that we were talking about. building character is kind of what we're. talking about and that schools should. teach this and there should be lessons. in character and. determination uh which you know I mean I. think that stuff's always kind of been. there um I remember teachers when I was. a kid that you know certain teachers it. just wasn't part of the curriculum. necessarily but I think any good teacher.

worth their salt or parent is going to. teach these lessons of character and. sticking with something um just sort of. inherently yeah but there's a debate in. the United States that's been going on. forever and is still going on now. there's some people who think that. school has no role whatsoever in that. you go learn math and you go learn. science you go learn history in school. that's what you learn you don't learn. how to be nice to other people or how to.

control your temper that's what your. family teaches you or that's what church. teaches you or whatever and there's. other people are like H A lot of people. a lot of kids don't have families that. teach them that and don't go to church. so we need someplace to basically raise. good citizens and why would we not teach. elementary school kids how to be good. people uh and that is where grit really. kind of got pulled into the fold because. uh I think in around. 2 the early.

2010s that whole shift from No Child. Left Behind was moving toward um to more. Encompass a a kind of like a a whole. school of thought for what what role. public education plays in creating Young. Americans um and it was based on what's. called social emotional learning or seal. and it basically is encapsulates all of. that stuff that we were just talking. about um how to be nice to other people. how to exert self-control how to listen.

to somebody else's opinion without. arguing with them or interrupting them. like just the normal stuff that if. everybody behaved this way we would. probably get along a lot better than we. do now social emotional learning says. you should learn that in like Elementary. School yeah for sure and that was an. idea um you said early 20110 that's kind. of when it really reared its head as far. as being actually adopted and you know. District criteria or curriculum I guess.

and it had been around for a long time. in the 60s and then 70s and 80s uh here. and there so it wasn't like a brand new. thing but that's when it was you know. like I said officially adopted um. president uh Obama in. 2015 uh came out with the every student. succeeds act uh Essa H that got No Child. Left Behind out of there and one of the. things that required was um kind of. getting on board with seal um getting. states to sort of invest in that kind of.

learning providing block grants um and. that uh you had to it could couldn't. just be purely academic outcomes on. testing and things moving forward you. had to include at least one non-academic. outcome in accountability standards. right so that means that now in addition. to your students reading and um reading. comprehension and math skills um being. tested you have to figure figure out how. to teach something that's not a.

cognitive skill that's traditionally. taught or tested in school you have to. figure out how to start teaching it and. then you have to figure out how to start. testing your kids on it because we're. going to start tying Federal money to. that that a big deal and so it just so. happened that's where it gets. complicated yeah this is exactly this is. really this is that's this is the exact. point where that happens because people. looked around they're like man this grit. thing is all the rage have you seen this. Ted Talk that Angela Duckworth gave.

let's just start doing that because. again it's a tailor made idea for. Americans just work hard and persevere. no matter how much adversity you face. and you will you will be rewarded richly. on the other side why wouldn't we want. to teach kids that so grit this really. Brand New Concept that a lot of people. in the field of psychology were like. it's it that's not something different. it's conscientiousness everybody it got. folded into the national curriculum. in the United States less than a decade.

after that first paper was published. yeah and Duckworth was brought on to the. federal government as a consultant so. all of a sudden she finds herself in. these meetings with the president of the. United States and the Secretary of. Education about like all right so how do. we implement this kind of thing um I'm. not sure exactly how that went for her. if she was uh I tried to find some. articles about whether or not um I mean. we did find out some stuff about how she. felt about it but I was just just really. curious how overwhelming that might have.

been for her or if she immediately was. just like oh this is great or oh geez. like now what do we do I I don't know I. she's really kind of kept mom on that. actually it seems like they I don't I. have not found an interview where she's. kind of talked about that period and. that would be really interesting because. she was just a normal person she was a. math teacher yeah who who went to to. University of Pennsylvania for. psychology published his paper and. became a rock star and is now like. holding meetings advising on education.

policy with Obama like I can't imagine. what that did but very quickly she. started to see like this is this is not. a good idea you guys what you're talking. about doing with this concept is not a. good idea well yeah because she was like. uh and other people were were basically. saying well we're not even this is such. a um the way it's framed at least is a. New Concept uh as far as being part of a. curriculum so like we're not even sure.

how to teach it if it can for sure be. taught uh and all of a sudden teachers. had this mandate um you know States. basically control how much time is spent. teaching different things and teachers. follow these standards so all of a. sudden states were retasked with um you. know how do you implement this as as an. actual like in a lesson plan yeah in. California said hold my beer everybody. watch this totally they did a pilot.

study where where schools in cities like. Oakland and Los Angeles their funding. would be tied to how gritty their. students were how much grit improved in. them right mhm and the way that they did. it was through the grit questionnaire so. when they the the whole idea was that in. California Public Schools you would give. these kids this grit survey the grit. scale I think it originally was 15. points and I think Duckworth whittel it.

down to 10 these days yeah but again it. says things like you know um I finish. whatever I start or my interest change. from year to year depending on your. answer you're either gritty kind of. gritty not so gritty I think it was not. quite put that way but depending on your. answers your teachers would be held. accountable for that and then the. teachers at the or the school would be. held accountable cumulatively for how. well the teachers were imparting grit to. their students and there's so many.

problems with this that I think even the. El like the second graders were like. this is a really bad idea this doesn't. make any sense whatsoever but California. went ahead with it and Duckworth was. like I think she was a consultant on. California trying to implement grit when. she saw what they were doing like you. like making high stakes accountability. measures for like maybe firing teachers. funding schools passing kid to the next. grade based on how gritty they were not.

gritty she was like I don't want to have. anything to do with this and not only. that I'm going to start writing op EDS. telling everybody to not go along with. this yeah she said this is really just. conscientiousness plus everybody right. um she did there was a quote uh she was. an interview with NPR in 2015 where she. said and this is where I really am like. you know I like where she stands on this. because she says I feel like the. enthusiasm is getting ahead of the. science yeah and she said that um in in.

one of the op-eds for the New York Times. she she condemned the idea that students. would face high stakes uh character. assessment because that's the other kind. of part of this that we um I was about. to say dance around but we just really. haven't talked about yet is uh that's. kind of what you're doing is assessing. the character of a of an eight-year-old. um especially if one of the question. questions is like you know I have have. the same interest you know year after. year like at those ages at least with.

with Ruby like she's all over the place. with what she's interested in and I. think those are the ages where you're. kind of figuring out what the heck you. like so I don't like the idea that she. might score lower on a grit test because. she's played the piano for a month and. then decided to do parkour for nine. weeks and you know that's just that. feels very normal to me for a young kid. well so that ties into a huge criticism. which we'll probably talk more about. later but um called deficit thinking and. deficit thinking is that there is a such.

a thing as a norm that everybody should. ascribe or subscribe to and aspire to. and that anything outside the norm is. operating at a def deficit and so that's. what things like grit um teach like hey. you're operating at a deficit try harder. so that you can be like everybody else. that we've deemed in this window of. normal that's exactly what you're. describing and and it's it's a really. great critique and criticism like. deficit thinking is it's just it's the.

it's what most people who send their. kids to public school don't want for. their kids to be taught to be like. everybody else yeah for sure uh the. other thing too that sort of came out. was that um it's a self-reported test. that given to children and any kind of. self-reporting test given to someone of. any age can be highly problematic but in. this case um Duckworth herself found. that like a lot of times in low-income. neighborhoods and maybe schools that.

were underfunded and didn't have the. resources that there would be. exceptionally gritty kids who would rate. themselves lower than kids who thought a. lot more of themselves that went to you. know uh a nicer school or a school that. was better funded so these kids that. that had like a I don't know I guess. like a poor self-image of their own. character were grittier than they. self-reported so it's a flawed study to. begin with yeah and that applied to. entire regions even I think um East Asia.

typically scores very low on. self-reported grittiness tests but in. other measures of grittiness they score. really high so it has to do with like. you said your self-image or your frame. of reference like if you go to a really. really tough school yeah you can't. possibly measure up so you're not going. to self-report that you're really good. at grit and hanging in there um but if. you go to a midling school and you are. kind of good or better than you know. most people in your class you're.

probably going to over report so yeah. the whole basis of testing for grit that. Duckworth herself came up with she came. out and said like this is you can't this. is no good like you don't use this to to. grade teachers in schools on stop doing. this you guys all right let say we take. a break hey you took the words out of my. mouth well you took the water out of my. mouth last break so it's turn about as. fair play all right we'll be right back. [Music].

[Music]. [Music]. all right Chuck so um. this is one of those ones where we just. couldn't keep the criticism to the end.

part we've kind of been peppering it. along yeah there have a lot of people. who have really um good criticisms of of. grit in the whole concept and the idea. of teaching grit and the problems with. it there are also really baseless um. criticisms and problems with grit um and. one of the big ones is that there is a. huge backlash that they're like wait a. minute this sounds a lot like iCal race. Theory so let's ban teaching grit in.

this whole social emotional snowflakey. learning kind of stuff that's right uh. there was a political backlash uh. generally on the on the conservative. political right um didn't like the idea. a a lot didn't like the idea ofal to. begin with um social emotional learning. certainly didn't like the idea of. critical race Theory which is a topic. that I I keep pushing down the line to. cover but I've wanted to for a while uh. and then grit kind of got mixed up with.

all of these um which is really ironic I. guess from a macro view when the whole. idea of pulling up by the bootstraps and. anyone can make something of themselves. is sort of an idea Champion by the the. political right generally in this. country um but it got mixed up with uh. like I said those other two things and. um and I think a lot of times there's. just a there's a little bit of laziness. sometimes politically on both both sides. in this country to lump things together. and be threatened for sure.

but on the other hand I'm sure there. were plenty of um conservative parents. who were really paying attention to what. was going on in schools and did not like. the idea of their kids being taught how. to behave because they were at home. maybe teaching their kids how to behave. and they didn't want the schools to do. that so it's not like there were just. totally illegitimate reasons it was more. getting it mixed up with other stuff. that just seemed a little touchy feely.

and so just by virtue of that like it. was bad um that that was kind of like. the baseless criticism of grit the idea. of teaching your kids Behavior I don't I. don't think that's that's baseless like. that's a it's a Bonafide critique yeah. but it was it became part of it came. wrapped up in a progressive idea about. teaching and I think that was the enemy. yeah so. um I guess grid is actually it seems to. still generally be around it's not like.

the buzzword or Hot Topic any longer but. it it doesn't seem to have just gone. away people didn't abandon it I think in. part because nothing's come along to. replace it um and then also in part. because Angela Duckworth despite Mounds. mountains of negative attention and. criticism and probably personal attacks. has stuck by it she's like no I'm like. this is a real thing it got way out of. hand that was not my fault I didn't mean.

for that to happen um it's still a real. thing we just haven't figured out how to. really test and teach it um so but she's. she's still standing by it um in the. face of other criticisms you might say. she has. grit yeah I did that didn't even occur. to me that would have been hilarious if. she was like oh forget that moved. on I'm sorry cut you off though what. were you saying um that no it was.

totally worth being cut off that was a. great one um the that that there are. other criticisms that are super. legitimate that come out of Academia but. we've covered a bunch of them one is. that it's the same thing as. conscientiousness uh another one is that. it's it's a meth it's a technique of. instilling deficit thinking you're not. normal you're outside the norm so pull. yourself up from your bootstraps yeah. and then my favorite is that it just. takes away responsibility or the need.

even to remedy problems for the kids who. are facing the hardest hardships in. their. education um because by definition. they're the ones who are um getting the. the most practice at being gritty and. therefore will succeed they can just. they can pull themselves out of the. worst kind of poverty if they're just. they just have stick tutiven and. persevere yeah and you know another. criticism came out that I thought was. interesting was uh people that were.

saying like well what you're teaching. students to do is that like there is no. other way uh other than to um stick to. something and you shouldn't give up on. anything right when like some stuff you. should give up on and some stuff isn't a. worthwhile Pursuit and that's sort of um. part of the process of learning and. growing as a child into adulthood is. figuring out the things that you want to. stick to and that are worth sticking to. for you uh whereas if you're if you have.

grit just drilled into your head you're. like well you know you feel like you. maybe shouldn't quit the soccer team uh. even though like soccer may not be a. good thing for you exactly and that. really kind of ties into this idea where. um I can't remember who wrote it let me. see if I can find it but it was on I. think uh Ed week I've been exposed to so. many strange educational websites that. I've never heard of before edutopia uhuh. uh. MPR.

um anyway I can't can't quite find it um. oh yeah it was a it was a editorial by. uh ja meta. Mehta back in 2015 and Ja meta is a. professor or was at least in 2015 uh of. education at Harvard and um they made. the case like kids show grit like all. the time like a teenager who has their. heart broken and then like gets back out. there after you know a month or two or.

whatever and starts looking for love. again that's grit or if you're the. quarterback of a football team and you. like lose the game singlehandedly and. yet you go out for quarterback again. next season that's grit but the thing is. these are things that kids care about. they're showing grit because they're. pursuing something they actually feel. passionate about right and Grit. like as it as it was generally applied. in in the public education system was.

like it doesn't matter whether you care. about it or not persevere and that just. teaches you to become an auton automaton. to a degree you hate your factory job. don't go out and improve yourself to. like get a better job just push through. make it to Friday and you'll have the. reward of a case of beer on Friday night. if you just hang in there through the. rest of the week and push through right. like that's what it teaches and so um. Joel meta said uh the what schools need.

to do is not teach grit schools need to. figure out how to change their curricula. to make students more passionate to. figure out how to inspire passion in. kids the same way that like high school. love or um going out for a play or. playing on the football team can like. how do you figure out how to how to. inspire that kind of passion for science. or history or whatever math um that. that's what schools need to focus on and.

then kids will really start excelling I. tend to agree with their take yeah. because I think about my own you know. well documented on this show at least uh. problems with science I'm just I'm not. good at it I mean that's a broad broad. topic i' I found I'm better at Earth. sciences and things like that than some. other stuff but let's just say like. chemistry or physics or economics I my. my brain doesn't work in a way that. makes that stuff very understandable and. no amount of grit and determination like.

I could technically go you know probably. learn that stuff if I had the grit and. kept at it and kept at it and kept at it. but it doesn't take into account that. people's brains are different and like. forget about interests like just how. people learn and what they're capable of. learning well it varies from person to. person so uh you know what you said. about what they said speaks to me yeah. good um there's also been some studies. too that are basically like Hey we're.

actually doing metaanalyses and and um. and using statistical analysis to really. study this and we're finding like grit. and conscientiousness are the same thing. I think they found also there was a. study in 2016 it seemed to be the year. of Doom for grit as far as studies go um. but there was one study that that. basically found that um point. 0.5% of difference in exam scores could.

be ascribed to what was considered. grit yeah and that only 6% explained any. difference in exam scores so it had to. do with a whole lot of other stuff and. it didn't have anything to do with grit. and then another another study found. that 9 95% of the variance in exam. scores was shared between grit and. conscientiousness so there's basically. no difference between the two yeah um so. again in the face of all this Angela. Duckworth is like I'm I'm sticking to it.

she's showing the stick tutiven yeah so. I want to read this quote from her uh. from Duckworth because the way she talks. about it here is makes me like the. concept more you know as far as just. being a piece uh she says caring about. how to grow grit in our young people no. matter their socioeconomic background. doesn't preclude concern for things. other than grit grit may not be. sufficient for success but it sure is. necessary if we want our children to. have a shot at a productive and. satisfying life uh adults should make it.

our concern to provide them with the two. things all children deserve challenges. to exceed what they were able to do. yesterday and the support that makes. that growth possible uh I mean it's hard. to argue with that you know yeah for. sure yeah again I think she's a she's a. very nice good person from what I can. tell and I feel bad for her that her her. study just got just got completely. distorted and and taken out of context. and out of hand but the idea that she's.

still sticking by it and is still with. it uh after all of like that whole. roller coaster ride is really just hats. off to her for that yeah for sure and. you know if you kind of look at the big. picture one of the villains here was the. was the media you know oh yeah for sure. and the public education system yeah and. who. else uh Paul tough cracker bar blame him. too yeah uh George Bush. sure uh senior and Junior yeah Obama for.

good measure yeah everything's his fault. right for. sure yeah we'll just end it on that all. right great uh if you want to know more. about grit there's plenty to read about. it a lot of people spilled a lot of Ink. on it uh and since I said that it's time. for listener. mail uh this is just a little trip down. memory lane from a longtime listener uh. Hey guys been listening uh since I. believe. 2009 nice uh not sure it might have been. 2010 my earliest memories of the show. though were listening to episodes on.

things like Murphy's Law and Delta. Force well that's old that say 2009 yeah. uh I remember listening to the Murphy's. Law episode while driving down a country. road in Indiana and thinking it would be. so ironic if I got a flat tire uh. unfortunately for the story sake it. didn't happen uh I need to go back and. listen to the Delta Force One now that. the military has all but admitted it was. real uh the attached photo is a screen. cap of a post that just popped up and. made me think of this for my Facebook.

memories uh and it was from 14 years ago. Josh you believe that yeah uh I used to. try and tell everyone I could about. stuff you should know and podcast in. general back then but no one really. showed any interest uh Funny How Time. Changes Things uh thanks both of you for. what you do the world is better for it. and that is sincerely from. Dan nice thanks a lot Dan I love that. one yeah his Facebook post was a podcast. on Vikings yeah wasn't that fun man it.

seems like a bazillion years ago yeah oh. it was a Berserker years ago that's. right nice nice tie in thanks uh if you. want to get in touch with us like Dan. did we'd love to hear from our longtime. listeners uh you can wrap it up spank it. on the bottom and send it off to stuff. podcast iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcast my heart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your.

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