The Ballad of Biggie and Tupac | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music] Hey everybody, we're going on. tour. We're going to be in Denver, Seattle, and San Francisco soon. And. tickets are still available. >> That's right. In the in the next few. days, actually. Uh we're going to be in. Denver on Tuesday the 27th of January. We're going to be in Seattle the next. night. Our dear beloved Seattle. Uh and. then finally winding it up on Thursday. the 29th in San Francisco as part of our. Sketch Fest appearance. And you can get. all the ticket and tour information at. stuffyou should know.com. Isn't that. right? >> It is right. And we love you Denver and. we love you San Francisco, too. [music].

>> That's right. We love all you cities and. we've missed you and we can't wait to be. back. >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. So, this is a good oldfashioned. stuff you should know. one of our. ongoing hip-hop editions. >> Yeah. >> I feel like a dork [music] anytime I say.

hip-hop, so I usually say rap. >> Yeah. >> But um regardless, that's what we're. talking about. >> Yeah. We're talking about uh Biggie and. Tupac, and we want to issue a uh a. warning and uh a trigger warning. Not no. pun intended there, but uh this one's. obviously going to because we're talking. about the lies of these two guys uh who. were in many ways u real gangsters. Um, a lot of stuff went down including uh. sexual assault and uh gunplay and uh.

murder and it's uh you know it's. probably not appropriate for for the. younger listeners and so we just wanted. to get that out there. Hopefully if you. know anything about Biggie and Tupac you. know that there's some uh more adult. content coming your way. >> Nice COA man. >> Yeah. So yeah, we are talking about. Biggie and Tupac and they are pretty. well known. If you listen to either one. of them or even kind of have a passing. awareness of hip-hop, especially in the. 90s, you probably know that Biggie and. Tupac had probably the biggest rivalry.

in the hip-hop world. It's referred to. as a beef. >> um between one another. So much so that. it actually triggered or caused at the. very least popularized the east coast. versus west coast thing of rap in the. 1990s. That was huge. It was the central. focus of rap during basically that whole. decade. >> Yeah. And and sadly uh would leave both. of them uh dead from violence. It was uh.

I hope that's not a spoiler for anyone. Uh but yeah, at at very young ages, it's. super sad uh what what happened to those. guys. Uh and just super sad that that. was, you know, brought about because of. just sort of the the the lifestyle that. went along with their careers, you know. >> Yeah. And a lot of people make a case. that there that lifestyle was. essentially demanded by fans and the. media. >> and certainly um fostered and nurtured. by fans in the media. And so I think.

both Biggie and Tupac and all the people. around them and other rappers basically. felt like they had to act like they the. stuff that they wrapped about um or else. they would be fake baby gangsters. sometimes or studio gangsters even. worse. >> Well, yeah. >> Yeah. And then they were also surrounded. by literal bloods and crips. So it. essentially had it was inevitable that. it would end in death and violence. >> Yeah. I I mean I think hip-hop more than. other types of music too, there's an.

expectation to be uh to be real. Um. again, God, all these puns flying out of. my mouth. >> Oh, from uh Cyber Hill. >> Yeah, of course. But uh to be real and. like you said not you know if you were. found out to be um sort of rapping about. something and and really kind of uh fake. >> uh in real life like that that's no good. for your career um as a hip-hop artist. So it's sort of you know they I don't. know to me they they're sort of victims.

of that whole thing in a lot of ways. >> Yeah. But at the same time they. definitely bought into it and they I. mean they essentially laid the. groundwork for that. Um, it's just it's. crazy because it's just such a. ubiquitous widespread thing for so long. It's strange to to think that you can. trace it back to one group, one duo. essentially. >> Yeah. So, uh, we're going to tell you a. little bit about Tupac and his. beginnings, a little bit about Biggie, and then once they met up, kind of what. happened from there. But, uh, for. >> as far as Tupac goes, he was born in.

1971, uh, same year as me. He was born. in Harlem. Uh his mother was uh Apheni. Shakur and she was one of the Panther. 21. I'm pretty sure we talked about them. in the Black Panther episode. >> Uh but they were uh part of the Black. Panther Party, the ones who were accused. of uh carrying out a bombing campaign. Um she did win an aqu quiddle in court. defending herself and exposed a lot of. stuff about undercover cops and the. tactics they use that were very. unourred. Mhm.

>> But Tupac was born about a month after. that trial and uh born Lasain Krooks. Uh. but it's not like he changed his name to. to be a cool hip-hop guy later. He was. actually renamed by his mom when he was. about a year old after indigenous South. American revolutionary Tupac Amaru II. So he's essentially was always Tupac. >> Yeah. He was named after an 18th century. um Incan, I believe, who led a rebellion. against the Spanish. Little known fact.

I didn't know that. Did you? >> I did not. >> So, um I usually think I associate Tupac. with New York because pretty much all. the movies he has was ever in were all. set in New York, but he's from San. Francisco. I mean, he was born in. Harlem, but his family moved to San. Francisco, or actually Mering County, which is a suburb of San Francisco, um, pretty early on in his life. And at the. time, his mom was, um, struggling with a. crack addiction. So, Tupac was. essentially on his own from a very young. age. And, um, as black kids at the time.

in the 80s in particular did to make. money, uh, when you were in a a. situation like that, you he sold drugs. and that's how he supported himself for. a long time. uh while he was even going. through school too. >> Yeah. And he was um like we'll see. Biggie was he was a really good English. student and I bet a lot of hip-hop uh. performers were good in English. You. know, it just sort of makes sense. Uh. but he dropped out of high school. Uh he. studied poetry. He continued to after he.

dropped out. Uh and actually his. teacher, his English teacher, one of. them, uh Leela Steinberg was like, "Hey, I see a lot of uh potential in you. You. can crash on my couch when you need to.". and she ended up becoming his first. manager. >> Yeah. And she said, "You always have to. wear that um that bandana around your. head just so like you do cuz I love it.". >> It looks super cool. >> Um I know we've also talked about this. before, but he was a member of Digital. Underground with Humpty Hump of the. famous Humpty Dance and he's shown.

dancing in the Humpty Dance video in the. background. He was a dancer for Digital. Underground, but later I think wrapped. on some of their albums. >> Yeah. But even from the outset, his. whole vibe was much much edgier than. Humpty Humps was. Like Humpty Hump was. rapping about how big his nose was and. having sex in Burger King bathrooms, right? Like Tupac was rapping about what. poverty and crime are like in the black. community, >> you know. He he he didn't go by Humpty. Hump. >> What was his What did he go by?

>> Uh that was Shock G. >> I've heard him referred to on other. songs as. >> well. All right. aka Humpty Hump. So, yeah, you weren't completely wrong. >> Um, a little a little aside, uh, I would. direct people to the merge song, Risky. Business, that features, um, Humpty or. Shock G. >> It's a pretty pretty cute little song. >> All right, >> so Tupac goes out on his own. He's got, like I said, a totally different vibe. And he released a solo album called. Tupocalypse Now.

>> There was no other title that it could. have possibly been than that. Yeah, for. sure. >> But the problem was like there was he. was keeping it real. So there was. nothing in the studio that um that he. was producing that could be played on. the radio. >> Yeah. >> So it was an underground sensation, but. publicly most people had not heard of. Tupac at that point. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh he Dan Quail kind of. gave him a little more press when. >> Yeah. >> Uh he blamed that record to Apocalypse.

Now on the shooting of a Texas state. trooper. So he was in the news a little. bit at least. Mhm. >> Uh and he started acting kind of right. afterward in 1992 and 1993 he put out um. or he was in the movies uh Juice and. Poetic Justice. >> Uh both really great movies. Juice Juice. is awesome actually. So is Poetic. Justice. I love both of those movies. >> The one I've seen him and I don't think. I think I saw Juice. I didn't see Poetic. Justice. I saw um Above the Rim. He was. really good in Above the Rim. >> I never saw that one. >> Oh, that's a good one. You should see.

it. >> All right. We need to get together and. have a Tupac watch party, I guess. Okay, let's do that. >> Yeah. Uh, but he started getting a. little more famous uh sort of slowly and. this is when kind of the early 90s at. the very beginning of his career is when. he first started uh getting into trouble. and getting like a real reputation as uh. sort of living that lifestyle. >> Yeah. I mean like for real. He was. involved in a shoot a shootout at the um. Marin County Festival where he lived um.

where he had just performed that killed. a six-year-old who was playing on a. school ground nearby. >> Yeah. >> Um he shot at offduty police in Atlanta. in 1993 when he tried to prevent them. from um beating up a black motorist. And. those charges were thrown out because it. turns out the cops were off duty, didn't. announce themselves as cops, and were. super drunk. But you know those kind of. things like his legend as like a thug. living the thug life which I think he. basically coined um that just formed and.

melded really quickly right out of the. gate. Like this guy was legit as far as. his fans were concerned. >> Yeah, for sure. So that's Tupac's uh. early days. Uh Biggie Smalls was born uh. he's a little younger. He was born in. 1972 in Brooklyn. His name was. Christopher Wallace. Uh he was born to. Jamaican immigrant parents and his mom. was a preschool teacher. Um his dad was. a politician in Jamaica but uh ended up.

you know leaving when he was 2 years old. and became a welder in the United. States. >> Uh but her his mom you know Valetta. really thought a lot about education. obviously as a teacher. So she took on a. second job just so she could send him to. a very well- reggarded high school. Um, uh, and then later went to, uh, George. Westinghouse Career in Tech Education. High School, >> which had quite an alumni base as far as. hip-hop goes because DMX, Buster Rhymes, Love Buster, and Jay-Z all went there. >> Yeah, I'm guessing. I didn't I wasn't. able to find it, but I'm guessing they.

crossed paths. May have been there at. the same time. >> Yeah. I mean, Donald Glover would have. gone to my high school had they not uh. sent him to the School of the Arts. >> Oh, yeah. And I saw him in New York City. a few feet from me when I was there in. December. And let me tell you, dude, I. don't know if I've ever seen a more. handsome grown man in person with my. eyeballs. >> Really? >> He He's astoundingly good-looking. Uh. and I wanted to go over and say like, "Hey, man. Uh we grew up in the same. neighborhood basically.".

>> And you're really good-looking. He. [laughter] really handsome, but he and. I'm such a big fan of his, but uh from. his music to his acting, but he was with. his family and like was just like h I'm. just not going to do that. >> Instead, he got in your car and shouted, "We're Dan High rules." And like laid. rubber peeling out of the parking lot. >> Yeah, that's right. Uh sure. Danger. Mouse went to my high school, too, though. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, I forgot about Danger. Mouse. Danger Mouse did that um Gray. album with the Beatles and um Jay-Z,

right? Uh, I don't know. >> We'll find out the hard way. [laughter]. So, uh, like you said, um, a lot of. hip-hop artists are probably or probably. were are good English students. And, um, Biggie Smalls was not an exception to. that. Like Tupac, he was actually he. excelled in English in high school. But. also like Tupac, um, his family was not. exactly wellto-do. Remember, his mom. took a second job to put him just. through high school. So he started.

selling drugs on the side. Crack again. This is the 80s. Um and eventually. dropped out of high school and I think. any kind of straight and narrow he might. have been on from high school was just. kind of removed and he started to get in. like actual trouble with the cops. >> Yeah. He ended up in jail actually. He. spent nine months in jail at one point. uh because he couldn't make bail. And. once he got out uh he made a demo tape. under the name Biggie Smalls. His. nickname as a kid was Big. Uh, but I.

think that came from a a gangster in a. movie from 1975 called Let's Do It. Again. Biggie Smalls did. >> Mhm. >> And he said that he wasn't trying to get. into a career. He just sort of did it. for fun. >> And uh that got him on Source Magazine's. uh list in 1992 of Unsigned in their. unsigned hype column. Yeah. which. eventually put him on a compilation with. other unsigned rappers, which eventually. landed him on the ears of a 23-year-old. named uh named Shawn Combmes.

>> So, yeah, Shawn Combmes, Puff Daddy, Diddy. Um, people have probably heard of. him by now for all sorts of reasons. his. career as a 23-year-old was as vice. president of Uptown Records and uh being. a a entrepreneur and all sorts of other. things, he decided to found his own um. record company, Bad Boy Worldwide Music. Group, uh usually known as Bad Boy. Records. And one of the first things he. did was sign Biggie Smalls. And they. became.

>> paired up in the media. They hung out, they were friends, they were fairly. close, but like those two were. inseparable as far as like the public. was concerned, whether that was fully. true or not. >> Yeah. And his uh when he put out his. first single, it was under the name. Notorious B.I. uh because of legal. issues, I guess, with the movie. >> for Biggie Smalls. Was that. >> That's my take. Yeah. >> Okay. So, he was Notorious Big I. officially. Everyone called him Biggie, of course. Uh he had as a kid in 93 with. his high school girlfriend uh Jan.

Jackson, not Janet Jackson. And he. hadn't really broken through at this. point even though he was with uh Shawn. Colmes at the time. Um but he, you know, so he continued to kind of deal drugs. Apparently Colmes was like, "You can't. do that kind of stuff if you want to get. anywhere." Uh but he broke up with his. um high school sweetheart who he had his. first kid with and a few months after. after that ended up with Faith Evans who. was also on the Bad Boy label and that.

is uh Biggie and his start. So good time. for a break. >> Yeah, we're at 1993. Tupac's already a. star and Biggie is starting to come up. >> All right, we'll be right back. [music]. You should know. [music and bell]. [music].

>> So, uh, one of the things you may or may. not know if you're just kind of passing. passingly familiar with the beef. between, um, Biggie and Tupac is that. they started out as friends. They were. actually pretty good friends for a. while. Um, Tupac, like I said before we. broke, was already a star. His star was. established and still growing. Biggie. was just starting to come up. He was. pretty pretty well known around New. York. And Tupac kind of became a a. mentor to him. Um they met in 1993 and.

um they hung out with a bunch of other. people, played around with a bunch of. guns at Tupac's house and they they. became close enough that whenever Biggie. went out to LA, he stayed on Tupac's. couch. >> That's right. Uh he was, like I said, he. was a he kind of considered Biggie like. a one of his lieutenants at the time and. definitely was a mentor. Uh, Biggiey's. debut came out and it was called Ready. to Die in 1994. And before that, uh, Biggie was like,

"You know what? I think you should just. be my manager and take over from, uh, take over for Shawn Colmes." And Tupac. was like, "No, man. You need to stick. with that guy." Um, apparently Tupac. wasn't a big fan of Combmes. >> Yeah. >> Uh, but, you know, he said that I I had. a feeling he just didn't want to get. into managing him. Well, he said he'll. make you a star. And I think he did know. that like, you know, Tupac wasn't a a. manager or a label owner. Like, he was a. performer. >> And Sean Combmes liked to think of.

himself as a performer, but really he. was an executive. So, it probably was. the smarter move to stay with him, at. least at first. Right. >> Yeah. >> The problem was is um Shawn Combmes, again, remember in inextricably linked. BFF with Biggie, as far as the public's. concerned, was actually jealous of. Biggie and Tupac's friendship. he wanted. to be friends with Tupac. He was jealous. that Bicki got to be friends with Tupac. The reason Tupac didn't care about um. being friends with Shawn Combmes is that. he thought Shawn Combmes was basically a.

poser. Um he was a record executive. playing like he was a hardcore rapper. >> and um he didn't have much respect for. him. And I think that that really kind. of came through um to to Shawn Combmes. after a little while and he didn't he. started not liking Tupac. Yeah, that's. right. Uh, so the beef is sort of the. beef seed is planted as as they are. Uh, you know that old saying, [laughter]. >> where's the beef seed? It's been. planted. >> Exactly. >> Uh, Ready to Die, like I mentioned, was.

Biggiey's debut in '94. It was a big. hit. It went double platinum uh about a. year later. Uh, which is means a lot of. records were sold. And this was when the. West Coast was sort of, uh, the like all. the big hip-hop stars were mainly out of. the West Coast. So, he was kind of the. biggest thing coming out of New York. right off the bat. Uh, and it's a great. record. He was, uh, you know, he he. wrapped a lot about, um, you know, sort. of like the lifestyle and the gangster. stuff that he was doing, but also there. was a lot of vulnerability on that first.

record, too. >> Yeah. Yeah. He um, and Tupac wasn't shy. about rapping about mental health and. stuff like that. And up to this point, like, >> you did not talk about that kind of. stuff. It was all about partying and. having sex and like doing drugs and all. that stuff. you didn't talk about being. paranoid or like super worried about. being killed or anything like that. Um, and I just to kind of set the scene, can. we talk a little bit about the the brief. history of hiphop up to that that point. and how big of a deal it was when um.

Ready to Die came out? >> Sure. because you said that the west. coast had kind of taken over from the. east coast like from Slick Rick and LL. CoolJ and all them the ones who were. coming up in the 80s. At the time that. um Biggie Smalls record came out. everyone was all about Dr. Dre, Ice. Cube, Snoop Dog, all these guys. Like. that's where rap was. It was on the West. Coast. So for somebody to to come along. and basically snatch that away and bring. it back to New York, it was just a.

really big deal. And it took. a rapper of the caliber of um Biggie. Smalls to do something like that because. there were tons of other albums that had. come out like Tribe Called Quest had. three albums by this time. Um and yet. the Biggie Smalls record coming out just. just completely undid essentially caused. an earthquake in the rap world and. tilted everything back to New York. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh so as this is.

happening and Biggiey's blowing up like. in a big way, uh Tupac is in New York um. filming a movie in 1993 and we get a new. guy on the scene or he was actually on. the scene but a new guy as far as his. podcast goes [clears throat] uh named. Haitian Jack and he starts hanging out. with Tupac. Tupac likes this guy. They. start partying together. Uh Biggie knows. about Haitian Jack because he was, you. know, pretty familiar with the street. gangs of New York. And he warns his. friend Tupac and he's like, "Man, this. guy is real trouble.". >> So, like, you got to watch out. You.

should probably stay away from this guy. cuz like he's a super violent dude. Like, I know we're we're all real, but. this guy is he will land you in jail. probably at some point, so stay away. >> or get you killed. >> Yeah. >> So, um things are going along. Biggie. and Tupac are friends. One's in New. York, one's on the West Coast. It turned. out Biggie was pretty right in warning. um Tupac against Haitian Jack because. shortly after that um Tupac met a girl. named Ayanna Jackson. She was 19 at the.

time while he was in New York filming. hanging out with Haitian Jack and she. alleged that um Tupac Haitian Jack um. the road manager for Tupac Charles Man. Fuller and another man I couldn't find. who he was um gang raped her and she. called the police afterward. The police. showed up, they found guns in the room, and now Tupac is in big big trouble. again. Right. So, two threads begin. here. One is Tupac is now um charged. with sexual abuse, sodomy, and.

possession of guns, illegal guns. >> Yeah. >> That starts, that thread starts. So, we'll pick up again later. But another. thread starts which is a dispute um a. beef now with Haitian Jack because he. thought that Haitian Jack had dropped. the dime on Tupac and to get out of the. trouble for this gang rape um charge. >> Yeah. So Haitian Jack had his case. separated from Man Fuller and Tupac. Uh. he pleaded down to a lesser charge. He. pleaded guilty to two misdemeanors and.

avoided jail time. Mhm. >> Tupac always said he was innocent and. that he was set up and sold out by. Haitian Jack, but that, you know, we. need to point out that completely. contradicts uh the story of the victim. uh from Ayanna Jackson. So, uh but you. know, the whole point of this is there's. like you said, there's now this official. beef that um kind of again planted the. seed of what would happen to he and. eventually Biggie moving forward. >> Yeah. Yeah. And the thing that really. kind of um blew this this whole thing up.

is Tupac said as much. He said Haitian. Jack cooperated with the police. This. major actual gangster in New York. cooperated with the police in an. interview with the New York Daily News. So the New York Daily News prints Tupac. saying that. And that did not make. Haitian Jack very happy. Those two um. separated immediately. They didn't talk. anymore. They weren't friends anymore. They didn't hang out. And now Tupac had. essentially an enemy in Haitian Jack, which is from what I can tell not what. you wanted.

>> No, not at all. Uh so the case is moving. forward at this point. Uh Tupac is. financially strapped. Uh because while. he is making money, he's spending it. faster than he's making it. He's also. helping out friends and family with. their finances. Uh so there was an. invitation from a guy named Jimmy. Henchman Roseman. >> Uh he knew Shawn Combmes. He knew. Haitian Jack and he said, "Hey, Tupac, why don't you do a guest spot uh on for. this rapper Little Shawn? Uh he's in uh.

Biggie Circle. He's a guy with Shawn. Combmes as well. Uh we'll pay you seven. grand." He needed the money, so he did. it. Uh he shows up at Times Square uh at. Quad Recording Studios on November 30th. along with three of his guys. And before. getting on the elevator uh to go up and. record, they were met by these other. three guys who draw guns, tell them to. get down on the ground. Uh Tupac draws. his gun and he ends up being uh shot. He.

ends up being robbed. He ends up being. beaten pretty badly. And Combmes and. Biggie and uh Henchman, Jimmy Henchman, Roseman were up in the studio at the. time. Um they were they were there. So. all of a sudden, Tupac is getting um. wheeled out on a gurnie, sees those. guys, and he flips a bird at Biggie and. his crew cuz he thought they were in on. this attack. And that's when the beef. like really started between these two. >> Yeah. And Biggie was like, I I have no. idea what he's talking about. And Tupac.

just decided that if if Biggie Smalls. hadn't set him up, he had at least. turned his head and let all of this. happen. Like he knew that it was going. to happen. He didn't warn him. There's. no evidence whatsoever either one of. those things happened. >> And um Biggie Smalls always was like, "No, like this had nothing to do with. it." After Tupac died, he was obviously. heartbroken and spoke in public about. how sad he was that Tupac was dead. It. it seems like it was a one-sided beef,

but the beef on Tupac's side was so. energetic that it you couldn't just. ignore it. There was just a divide. And. the divide was so great that Bloods hung. out with one side, I think Tupac's side. and Crips hung out with Biggiey's side. >> Yeah. >> You and you have that kind of thing. Like there's very little chance of like. reconciling or accidentally hanging out. because you ran into each other on the. street and you kind of patched things. up. That is not going to happen with.

with you now hanging around with the. Crips and the Bloods. >> Yeah. And no one ever really got to the. bottom of uh who was behind that. shooting. There's a lot of disagreement. and people pointing fingers and claiming. this and that. Uh I guess we don't need. to totally get into that. But after he. uh was beaten and shot and robbed, uh. he's bandaged up, he's in a wheelchair, he's still got this court case going on, and he is found guilty of sexual. assault. He's acquitted on the other. charges. Uh and he's sentenced to 18. months in prison. Uh where his third.

album came out, Me Against the World, came out while he was in prison serving. that uh sentence. Dude, if you want. cred, release your rap album while. you're in prison. >> Yeah. Called Me Against the World. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Um, so while Tupac was in jail, I don't. remember how long he was in for it. >> 18 months. >> 18 months. Okay. While he was in jail, um, Biggie releases a track called Who. Shot You. And, um, Tupac interprets that.

as it was completely directed to him. It. was essentially Biggie Smalls gloating. about having set up Tupac and now Tupac. was in jail and he'd been shot. And um. that seems to not be the case at all. Biggie Smalls apparently wrote that song. before the Quad City shooting. And um. again, just from all evidence, it seems. like Biggie had no problem with Tupac. This is all in Tupac's head. like this. whole east coast west west west west. west west west west west west west west. west west west west west west west west. west coast beef seems to have come from.

Tupac being paranoid essentially. and I looked up why he might have been. paranoid and um apparently there's. pretty widespread acknowledgement or. belief that he was suffering from. substantial mental health issues while. he was alive and that that had a huge. impact on the way that he um interacted. with people the level of trust he would. afford even the closest people. Like I. think it was very easy to fall out of. his favor because you might do or say.

something that he suddenly found. suspicious and now all of a sudden like. you were his enemy. Like you would do. something like set him up or rob him or. pay for him to be killed or something. >> Yeah, I wondered about that. I'm glad. you looked into that. >> Thank you. I am too. >> You're welcome. Uh maybe we should take. another break. >> Yeah. >> All right. We'll take another break and. we'll uh we'll get back to it right. after this. S Y L Y S K S K.

[music]. [music]. >> All right. So, uh I don't need to go. over what we've been talking about. because everyone's listening. So, at. this point, um, the record labels that were handling. this kind of music, it it wasn't like. the major label stuff at at at this. time, like that would happen in the.

future. Um, but it was it was basically. hip-hop labels. You had Bad Boy with. Shawn Combmes, uh, Death Row Records on. the other side. Um, that company was. founded about the same time in 1992 by. Dr. Dre and a few other guys. And one of. those guys was his former bodyguard, uh, Marian Suge Knight. uh spelled s u g- e. >> Uh he was the CEO of Death Row Records. >> Yeah. >> And he was a blood like he was, you. know, he was a straightup blood from.

from South Central Los Angeles. >> Yeah. Um so and he's now the CEO of. Death Row Records, right? So that. automatically makes Death Row Records. like another It's a legit music label as. far as like the stuff that the artists. on the label are rapping about. the the. CEO of the record label is a blood. Not. a former blood, a blood. >> Yeah. >> So, we talked about how the Quad um. studio shooting. >> like really kind of started the beef. The thing that made that beef really.

genuinely public came at the award show. for Source magazine, their annual. awards. This time, this one was in 1995. where Suge Knight, who'd been visiting. Tupac in jail and apparently had bought. into Tupac's theory that um Shan Combmes. and Biggie Smalls had set him up to be. shot and robbed. Um, Suge Knight was. accepting an award and during his. speech, he invited any any um rapper who. didn't want to worry about the executive. producer trying to be in all the videos,

which was a direct shot at Sean Combmes. Yeah. >> He said, "Come on over to Death Row. Records." And I mean, if you go back and. look at like Biggie Smalls um videos and. like basically any rapper on this label. at the time, >> oh yeah, >> Sean Combmes is probably going to pop up. making a cameo if not dance on it. usually with his shirt wide open. >> He he really was not. >> he was not what they like Death Row. Records was doing. And so like Suge.

Knight made a pretty good point like if. you were really actually looking for. legit stuff, come over here. But saying. it publicly and doing it by taking a. shot at Shawn Combmes at a the Source. Awards. >> Yeah. >> While you're accepting an award, it was. a big deal. That was that really kind of. made that beef public and it turned into. East Coast versus West Coast essentially. immediately. >> Yeah. I mean, I remember at the time. thinking cuz uh I I remember just seeing.

and it wasn't just rappers like they had. like some R&B acts and I feel like I. feel like Combmes was always in those. videos just like like you said either. dancing or just like Yeah. Yeah. in the. background. >> And I remember thinking about the time. at the time and this wasn't like my. hip-hop was all like earlier stuff and. Tribe Called Quest and that kind of. thing and you know Dr. Dre and Snoop. I. was into that at first, but this. generally wasn't my thing, but I. remember thinking like this guy's like. >> he sucks. Like he's not he's not a.

talented artist. >> No. >> Uh cuz he wasn't I guess you know he was. a like you said an executive and a. producer and uh I was I remember. thinking that like why is he always. throwing himself in there in front of. the camera? Like he sucks. >> Yeah. And he was dorky even compared to. who were essentially mainstream rap. artists like Tupac and Biggie Smalls. >> Oh yeah. No shade on them, but there. were way more underground rappers at the. time putting out really good stuff. Tribe Called Quest is a really good. example of that. Um, that when you.

compared them to them, he became even. even more cringey, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, for sure he was. It was. And he. definitely like kind of brought down the. credibility of of the label and all the. artists on it. For sure. Like Biggie. Smalls was exponentially too good for um. Shawn Combmes. Sean Pump just kind of. had him under his thumb. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Which is sad because I mean Biggie. Smalls is Biggie Smalls and Tupac. usually kind of battle for first or. second place on most lists of the.

greatest rapper of all time. My money's. on Biggie Smalls. What about you. >> as the greatest rapper of all time? >> Well, it's between Tupac and Biggie. How. about that? >> Oh, okay. Uh cuz Chuck D like dead in. the bullseye for me. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. I was always a public enemy. guy. like that started in high school. >> I like them too, but I don't know. I. think I don't like the I don't like the. um instrumental track to a lot of their. stuff. >> It's too hard, raw, edgy for me.

>> Yeah, I liked it. I mean, trust me, I. was way more into like uh the Tribe. Called Quest and Far Side and uh Jungle. Brothers and like that kind of style. Uh, so Public Enemy, me being into. Public Enemy in high school is. definitely kind of a weird thing. >> Yeah, but. >> as I was listening to The Smiths in the. Cure. [laughter]. >> That's right. No, I'm with you. I was. listening to Smiths in the Cure, but. also like Boot Camp Click, like Smith. and Wesson, Nas, Wuang, Gangstar.

>> Yeah. See, I never I like Gangstar, but. I never got into Wuang. >> They were pretty good. They were They. were better solo. I think most of like. Method Man and Rizza were better solo. than Muang together, but whatever. >> And this is two middle-aged white guys. discuss their hip-hop past. >> I know. I do have to say that Dr. Dre's. the Chronic was literally lifechanging. >> Oh, for sure. >> And I It's not just me that that. happened to I think that changed a lot. of people's trajectory. >> I was one of them, man. I I know that.

thing by heart inside and out. >> Yeah. >> It's a fun listen when I put it on. A. lot of nostalgia floods back. >> It is. I thought the same thing would be. for um Doggy Style Snoop's debut solo. album. It's not It does not hold up. >> Yeah. I mean, it's [clears throat] not. It wasn't as good as The Chronic by a. mile, >> but I liked it as much as The Chronic at. the time, and I don't anymore. >> Yeah, I'm with you. And part of that may. have to do with the fact that Snoop Dogg. has I don't know, become the Snoop Dogg. of today. >> Man, he's amazing. He's now the owner of.

Death Throw Records. >> No, he's awesome. But I just feel like. he's he's a bit overexposed for my. taste. >> Oh, I see. He's like the um uh. >> the Pton Manning of the hip-hop world. >> He's the Pedro Pascal of rap. >> Okay, even better said. >> But he's an American treasure, though. I. mean, like he was an Olympic mascot. along with Flavor Flave. >> Now I'm picturing uh Snoop Dogg, Pedro. Pascal, and Pton Manning and just. sitting at at lunch just saying like,

"Guys, isn't this great?" I could see. that. Talking about um mutual funds. >> Yeah, we should do something together. because we're not out there enough, [laughter]. >> right? It'll blow everyone's mind. >> All right, so uh we are in September. 1995 at this point. Uh Suge Knight has. dropped the dropped the bomb at the. Source Awards, uh which I'm sure did not. sit well with Shawn Combmes. And uh. Tupac is in prison at this point. and. Knight and Combmes uh go to uh the same. party here in Atlanta at what was called.

the Platinum House. It's a strip bar. over on Piedmont Road near the Colonade, which you love. >> Yeah. >> Uh a fight breaks out and uh a guy named. Jake Robels, it was a death row employee. and he was a blood uh and a close friend. of Suge Knight. He was shot and killed. and witnesses were like Sean Colmes's. bodyguard is the one who did it, >> right? So, this is not good. This does. not help this rivalry at all. Um, and.

eventually, um, I guess over the same. time, Tupac's still in prison, but Suge. Knight is still visiting Tupac there, and like they're becoming closer and. closer, um, because not only is Sug. Knight going out of his way to go visit. Tupac in prison. Um, he's also helping. him financially, helped him post bail, get out on an appeal. Um, and when Tupac. gets out of prison again, he's now. deeply indebted to Suge Knight, but all. but apparently they were they had become. real friends. He releases his fourth.

album, All Eyes on Me. Um, I think it. was in February of 1996. like immediately went double platinum. I. think it went to number one on the. charts. >> So, uh, at this time, uh, Death Row is. at Can-Am Studios outside LA. That's. what they're working out of. And uh. people, you know, at the time were like, you know, the the real stuff is going. down there. There's a big gangster. culture in and around that studio. Um. Suge Knight is is a a real heavy. He's.

he's threatening people right and left. if they don't, you know, aren't on his. good side. And people are hanging out. there uh with with gang members who are. their security. So there's, you know, there might be Bloods there one day, there might be Crips there one day, there might be a huge singer there one. day recording. Uh, but all of this is. sort of happening around Can Studios, >> right? Um, so Tupac gets out of prison. and remember like this guy's like a. essentially a heat-seeking missile.

focused on Biggie Smalls. Like I'm I get. the impression that he just sat in. prison like ruminating about Biggie. Smalls and getting back at him. So, one. of the first things he does was hire. Biggie Small's wife, Faith Evans, who. was herself a pretty um popular. recording artist at the time. He offered. her $25,000 to be on one of um his. records, a track for his um album, All. Eyes on Me. And she did. She's like, "Sure, 25 grand. I'll do it." Um, and I.

guess after she performed or laid down. the track, I guess as it's called, um, he was like, I I got my check at the. hotel room. You got to come over to my. hotel room to get it. >> Red flag. >> Yeah. So, she went uh both of them say. that he propositioned her. He says that. they had sex. She has repeatedly denied. and emphatically denied that they did. But just the fact that they were in a. hotel room together gave Tupac, even if. it wasn't true that they had sex, gave.

him plenty of grounds to tell everybody. that they did have sex, to at least gnaw. at Biggie Smalls with um questions, you. know, that in his head. >> Yeah. And this is his wife, so like it's. on for real at this point. >> Uh there's no coming back. Uh at the. Soul Train Award show, this was in March. of 96. Uh Tupac and Biggie both won. awards, so they were there. Uh that was. the first time they had been together. since that quad studio shooting. Uh. which is where it all started. And they. both had their guys with them. They both. had their entouragees. Uh Tupac had the.

Bloods. Uh Biggie had the Southside. Crips on his side. >> Uh and there was a guy named uh Keith D. and he was a [ __ ] Uh so he was with um. Biggie. And outside of this um at the. Soul Train Award show, >> uh they got into a fight basically. Uh. witnesses said that Tupac is shouting. shouting down Biggiey's groups, sort of. inciting them. Uh they all brandish. guns. Uh but nothing happens at this. point. Just a lot of sort of back and. forth and like, you know, I've got my.

gun, so shut up. >> Yeah, it's astounding. Crips and Bloods. with their guns drawn in the same spot. and no one shot anybody. That's crazy. Um, so Tupac released Hitim Up, which is. considered one of the best diss tracks. of all time. He actually specifically. names Biggie by well by name. He also um. talks about how he slept with Biggiey's. wife, Faith Evans. >> Yeah. >> Um, and while this is also going on, there's like a lot of money to that.

people have figured out we can make from. this, right? Like this beef. >> and like say, you know, some street. skirmishes or whatever, this stuff makes. news, right? like people know about this. and this is before um I think cell. phones were still kind of bricky at the. time long before the internet like and. people still knew about this stuff. It. was just a big deal and that helped sell. records like crazy. Um it also helped. sell magazines. Uh there's a Vibe. magazine from September 1995 and on the.

cover is um Biggie Smalls and Sean. Combmes and it talks about east versus. west. Some people put their finger on. that vibe uh issue and and point to it. as like fanning the flames of this beef. um and essentially making these these. two um groups like have to hate each. other even more or else they're going to. seem weak or like you know um fake. whatever. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh and while this is all.

going on, Tupac is becoming a little. more paranoid um about Death Row. Records. Um, and Suge Knight and. basically like Suge Knight's kind of. controlling the money, saying that, you. know, you're going to blow all your. money unless I'm in control. Uh, he. didn't think he was getting the the. proper royalties. Uh, he thought you're. holding holding me back in Hollywood and. I'm trying to get my movie career going. So, like trouble is sort of brewing on. the inside there. Uh, which finally. would culminate uh on September 7th, 1996.

Uh, a lot of people connected with Death. Row Records. uh Tupac, you know, as one. of them went to the Mike Tyson fight. against Bruce Seldon in Las Vegas. And. after the fight, uh one of the Death Row. group members, he was a blood named uh. Travon Lane, saw a guy who said, "Hey, he stole a Death Row necklace from me a. few months ago." Uh that guy's name was. Orlando Anderson. He was a [ __ ]. >> and a nephew of Keith D. and uh Tupac, Suge Knight, and other people uh jump.

Anderson uh rough him up pretty good. And a few hours later, uh Sug Knight and. Tupac are at a stoplight. Uh Cadillac. pulls up next to them and the car is. shot up and Tupac uh is dead 6 days. later at the age of 25. >> Yeah. Apparently, he was like making. jokes and everything as he was being put. onto the gurnie after the shooting, but. he just went downhill really quick from. there. >> Yeah. So, a lot of people are like, "This is Biggie. This is Sean Combmes.". They had they said they had nothing to.

do with it. Um, but this this this did. kind of give um Biggie Smalls like a a. wide opening to be like this stuff has. to stop. These this East Coast, West. Coast thing has gotten out of hand. Um, and it seems pretty cut and dry that. really it was them beating up Orlando. Anderson and him and other Crips being. in town who targeted and carried out. this this driveby. You know, that seems. like almost certainly the explanation.

for the whole thing. >> Yeah. I mean, that's who the cops uh. thought from the very beginning. Uh, it. was the guy that was jumped and beat up. Um, they didn't arrest him. He died a. couple of years later in a shooting in. Compton. Uh, fast forward all the way to. 2019 in a memoir where Kee D admitted. that he was in that Cadillac. Uh, he. said, "I gave the gun to Anderson. He. was in the back seat. There were two. other guys in the car. Uh, some people. say it was a guy named DeAndre Smith who. was the actual trigger man." Uh, but.

basically everyone in that car ended up. being killed except for Keith D. And in. September 2023, he was arrested and. charged with Tupac's murder. And that. trial is going to happen all these years. later coming up this summer in August of. 2026. >> Yeah. And Keith D and later on a bad boy. co-founder named Kirk Burroughs and. others. Uh after all these allegations. and revelations about what um Shawn. Combmes has been up to came out, they've.

come forward and been like, "We we think. he actually did have something to do. with this." Seems like a pretty quick. turnaround to me. I think it was just. Crips retaliating for a beat down. >> So, Tupac is is gone now. Like you said, age 25. Um, and if you want, you can go. You. know where Clarkston is, Chuck? >> Uh, sure. That was a rival high school. of Reedan. >> There is a Tupac statue in memorial in. Clarkston. Did you know that? >> I did. I've never seen it, though.

>> We went there. You mean and I went there. and it's pretty it's pretty amazing. And. it's just in the middle of this little. rinky dink suburb of Atlanta. It's. strange, but it's cool. >> That that was kind of my stomping. grounds was that area of Memorial Drive. where Clarkston was owned. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, we'll have to go to the Tupac. statue together somewhere. >> I'll go check it out. >> So So I think what, Chuck? Like um less. than six months. No, right at about six. months after Tupac was killed, uh Biggie. Smalls was murdered.

Yeah, this was uh March 1997. Uh he was. in a car, riding in a car, leaving a a. party of Vibe magazine in LA, pronounced. dead at the hospital. He was but 24. years old. And immediately everyone was. like, "This is Suge Knight, who by the. way, people blamed Tupac shooting. initially on Suge Knight.". >> Yeah. But but he was shot as well. He. was just grazed, but that seems. obviously to have not been the case. But. everyone immediately was like, "No, Suge. Knight definitely was in on Big E's.

murder. >> in retaliation for um Tupac shooting.". Right. >> Yeah. >> It's also entirely possible that Shawn. Combmes did this, too. But it it. certainly seems to have been a contract. hit. >> Like they the the people who killed. Biggie Smalls shot and shot into his. car. They were lying in wait. They were. essentially parked at this intersection. waiting for them to stop. They stopped. Um Shawn Combmes car ran a red light and. Biggie's car stopped at it. So Shawn. Combmes wasn't near the shooting when it.

happened. Um there was a FBI agent who. came forward or actually I guess created. a whole um report on this who was like. it this it was essentially the LAPD. hiring a hitman at the behest of either. Suge Knight or Shan Combmes. And it so. it was not Tupac's probably was not a. conspiracy. Biggie Smalls murder was. almost certainly a conspiracy. >> Yeah. And you know, Sug Knight would. have done all this from jail. He was in.

jail at the time. Uh he is in jail. He's. in prison now. Again, uh this is from. this is a 28-year sentence. So this this. is a big one. And this is for the death. of a a Compton businessman from 2015. He. was never charged in Biggie's killing. Uh but Biggiey's last record or last, you know, sort of official release. I. know they both put out a lot of stuff. postumously. Uh but the his next like. real uh drop was Life After Death was. called that before he was murdered. Uh.

but that sold more than 10 million. copies and certified diamond. >> Yeah. I guess Tupac released nine. postuous albums. Seven of them went. platinum. >> Yeah. Um, did you know Suge Knight has a. podcast from jail called Collect Call? >> Uh, it's not, but that's a pretty good. name for. >> podcast from prison. >> Agreed. >> Yeah. >> Um, do you want to know what ended the. East Coast West Coast beef? >> Oh, is that still not happening?

>> No. No, it ended fairly soon after this. Um, rap became more decentralized and. groups like Outcast came around and the. the whether they you were from the East. Coast or the West Coast was watered. down. It didn't matter nearly as much. So, you can thank Outcast for ending the. East Coast West Coast rivalry. >> Yeah. Cuz people are like, "No one's got. a beef with Big Boy and Andre.". >> No, everybody loves them for sure. Like. I I know we sound maybe facitious. We. are not being facitious right now. >> No. Boy, I'm a guest.

>> Um, one last thing. Apparently, Michael. Jackson assaulted Tupac once in a studio. when Tupac insulted um Quincy Jones's. daughter. >> Oh. Uh. uh Rashida or another one. >> Another one. Not Rashida. >> I don't think it was Rashida. I don't know. >> I wonder [laughter] I wonder how I. wonder how that fight went. >> It's a widespread rumor. And apparently. also um you know Biggie was on one of. Michael Jackson's songs.

>> like doing his thing like legit doing. his thing. It wasn't watered down for. the radio or anything like that. >> And apparently Michael Jackson threw his. lot in with Biggie and was not a big fan. of Tupac and snubbed him once. >> Oh wow. >> And apparently in addition to beating. him up. >> and everyone said no one cares which. side you're on Michael Jackson. >> You don't have that kind of cred. No. >> Yeah. But it is a like Big does a pretty. good job on that song. >> I'll have to check it out.

>> Okay, I think that's it, Chuck. >> Man, we did it. >> We did it. We made it through. Hopefully, we didn't sound too. ridiculous and dorky at any point, but. we'll find out. >> Yeah. >> Um Chuck said, "Yeah, that means it's. time for listener mail.". >> Yeah, this is just uh kind of a nice. email with some good suggestions. Hey. guys, my name is Josiah Brown. I live in. Tennessee. I've been a devoted fan since. I was about 10 years old and I'm 20 now. Wow. >> Uh my mom put me on to you guys and I. [music] basically never stopped. So, thanks mom. >> Thanks, Mom. >> Uh I've been binge listening recently. I.

do that every so often and I've just. been reminded of how wonderful the show. is and I just want to reach out and say. thanks for providing some wonderful. content and bringing the same big old. smile to my face all these years. Indeed. >> Keep up the good work, fellas. And that. is Josiah B. And Josiah had a lot of. good ideas, including uh Anne Frank, Oscar Schindler. >> Uh Mottown. >> Okay. >> I want to do Mottown for sure. >> Uh Mr. Rogers. I can't believe we. haven't done that one yet. >> We were going to and then that Tom Hanks. movie came out and kind of ruined it for.

a little while. >> Yeah, I finally saw that on a plane. recently. >> What' you think? >> Did you see it? >> No. >> Uh it was okay. uh and the Hindenburg and that uh the. Hindenburg is going to be coming at some. point in the not too distant future. because we [music] commissioned that. article and it's it's in the folder on. the computer. So, uh I definitely know. we're going to get to that one. >> Okay. Booya. Who was that again? Josiah. >> Josiah. >> Thanks a lot, Josiah. That was a very. nice email and thanks for all the great. ideas. If we do any of them, hopefully.

we'll remember to credit you with them. Right. >> That's right. Except for the Hindenburg. >> Yeah. >> It's already [music] in the bat. >> Okay. Uh, if you want to be like Josiah. and email in, we would love to hear from. you. You can send it off to stuffodcast. at iheartradio.com.

[music]. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, [music]. iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.