The 2000 Presidential Election: A Real Cluster | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and it's just us. again which is fine because we're here. to talk about the 2000 election Jerry. probably wouldn't want to hear about it. anyway uh can I tell the quickest story. of my uh how this went down for me sure. uh I was moving to Los Angeles in.

November 2020 uhhuh and you mean 2000. what did I say 2020 yeah yeah 2000 weird. that you had mentioned 2020 when you're. talking about 2000 I know so I was in a. big U-Haul I was Towing my car my 75. Plymouth Valiant named te behind me nice. and I was somewhere in Texas West Texas. when I uh spent the night and then woke. up the next morning it was kind of. freezing cold in West Texas and I was. documenting this whole trip via.

my high8 video camera um singing songs. into it and kind of documenting the. journey I'm G to get all these tapes. digitized soon that's one of my uh. Christmas break projects this year but I. very distinctly remember when I turned. on the camera and got in that truck the. next morning I said hey everyone so or I. don't think I said hey everyone because. I had no audience back then sure so I. think I said hey. me uh it's weird I went to bed last. night and the election uh had happened.

and I woke up today and no one knows who. won still and this is weird because we. always know who won I guess I'll see. what happens and then I hit the road. yeah and what 30 something days later it. was finally. decided by the Supreme Court of the. United States yeah that was an. interesting thing too that that today. you're like yeah I could see not knowing. that that that day that seems a little a. little quick almost suspicious ious ly.

quick now at the time it was like what. do you mean it's it's past midnight and. we don't know who won that's crazy the. 200 election definitely started that. whole thing um and the the election for. those of you who don't know was between. uh vice president Al Gore he was vice. president to uh Bill Clinton for both. terms he was looking to continue the. Clinton Legacy I guess um as president. himself and uh he was running against. George W bush the son of George Bush.

George HW Bush and the brother of Jeb. Bush I think it's his older brother and. at the time Al Gore was viewed as this. very wooden I think Jeb's younger okay. yeah yeah yeah sorry Jeb's the younger. brother and at the time Al Gore was. viewed as wooden unapproachable very. smart policy wonk who could not relate. to the average person to save his life. and George Bush was viewed as just this.

complete Dingus who was a part of a um. um a political Legacy who family clearly. viewed him having the presidency as his. Birthright that was the selection that. that America had at the time but this is. all against the backdrop of the economy. really doing nicely and there hadn't. been any really big problems or Wars for. a while I can't I can't really think of. any direct war that the United States. would have been involved in since.

Vietnam oh like you know Big Time War. yeah yeah I I don't think that I think. Vietnam was the last war we were in. during this election yeah so you know if. you were watching uh comedy shows. especially Saturday Night Live at the. time you you would get two things you. would uh on one side you would get uh I. I can't even remember who played him but. this is how Al Gore was basically. portrayed Daryl Hammond like oh that's. right he did I don't know I'm like Bill.

Clinton without the. Scandal uh that was Al Gore and then of. course uh I guess was Will Ferrell the. first uh and Bush you know through. comedy and the media was you know that. guy I don't even I don't even care about. being president yeah I just want to make. Daddy happy that was sort of the lay of. the land uh pre 911 before you know a. lot of the country rallied around Bush. um and you know uh like like we said.

Gore was trying to to get away from that. Clinton stink yeah uh such that he. didn't even get bill on the campaign. trail with him that much uh and it was. also I mean this was a landmark election. in a lot of ways but it was also sort of. the first um the first big election. where you had someone saying hey uh Gore. is the big Washington Insider and I'm. just this guy from Texas uh like sort of.

rural versus Urban uh Power struggle. yeah that's where it generally began the. Bush campaign really was doing what they. could to kind of. um highlight that dividing line yeah so. at the time um bush had been pretty far. ahead in the polls in the summer uh. after the Democratic National Convention. Gore mounted a big comeback and by Fall. by September a couple of months before. the election uh these guys were.

basically deadlocked and everybody was. saying this is going to be a really. really really close election hold on to. your hats everybody knew that it would. be close but no one had any guess that. it was it would turn out as close as it. actually did but just the polling poll. after poll after poll showed like uh. Gore's in the lead nope bush is in the. lead Gore's in the lead Gallup found. that the lead changed nine times just in. the fall the fall nine times exactly um. and so by election day Tuesday November.

7th um a lot of people including Tim. russer rest in peace um had had said I. think Florida's going to be the going to. decide the outcome of this yeah I I. didn't see exactly why I don't know if. it was a gut feeling or what the deal. was but there were there were a few. people who were already pointing to. Florida and um at the time the the news. organizations um NBC ABC CBS FOX CNN and. the AP um all subscribed to a company.

called the voter news service which had. been set up in 1990 I think by the the. big networks to basically pull their. resources to pay for people who did exit. polling and they would give the that. data directly to the networks who would. then use it to kind of like you know. read the tea leaves as best they could. to forecast who W because in 1980 NBC. called Reagan at 8:15 p.m. and set up. this huge competition among the networks.

oh yeah like calling for calling the. election was a big big deal for a. network and so you found that great. article where they were like you know. after that Reagan thing all the networks. started spending a lot of money in the. next cycle you know on their own exit. polling data and it was like millions. and millions of dollars so when they. they got together basically and said hey. why don't we all just hire this one. service so we can all save a lot of. money the downside of that was they all. getting the same information whether it.

was good or bad right and in this case. it turned out the information was not. great so Gore was doing pretty good not. just in the National vote but. electorally too got Pennsylvania got. Michigan uh and Florida was starting to. come in um and apparently the the. numbers were up the exit polling data. for uh Gore was showing that he probably. won Florida and enough that NBC said oh.

we're doing it again and at 7:49 p.m. on. Election Day NBC called Florida for Gore. they didn't go so far as to call the. presidency for Gore but the writing was. on the wall if Gore won in Florida that. was that um and I guess about 15 minutes. later the rest of the news organizations. had joined and said the same thing right. so everyone's calling Florida for Gore. publicly at this point that night uh the. VNS that voter news service that was.

doing the exit polling for everybody. said uh Hey news. organizations we've got some issues here. with our data um like for example in. this one County in Florida uh it was. supposed to be 4,32 votes that we saw uh. someone added a zero to that and it was. 43,202 organization said well that's too.

late we've already done that and at just. before 10: p.m. at 9:55 CNN was the. first to came come on and say hey wait a. minute we jumped the gun here uh. everyone else of course followed suit. and then at 2:15 in the morning uh Fox. News comes on and says bush is going to. be the winner not just the Florida but. the whole thing and then everyone else. followed suit and said and of course. this is overnight so wake up in the. morning thinking that George Bush had.

won right so um well not not quite. actually well if you were staying up. because we'll see what happened between. then and sunrise yeah and I think a lot. of people were staying up glued to the. TV still at this point by the time fox. said that Bush was the winner um and the. rest of the networks joined uh in with. that so um that's three three times now. that they have have made the projection. because retracting a projection is a pro. jection in and of itself it's like Rush.

said even if you choose not to decide. you still have made a choice it's. essentially the same thing and there's a. quote from Donna Brazil the um disgraced. Democratic operative who was running. Gore's campaign at the time get this she. um she texted Gore on his BlackBerry and. I read the New York Times article about. this they felt compelled to explain that. a Blackberry was an instant messaging. pager that's how 2000 this thing was by. the way really quick I saw that movie. the Blackberry movie on a plane flight.

recently and it's actually very good oh. I'm sure most are pretty good no it's a. movie movie most movies are pretty good. anyway recommended so um she she told. she's running the campaign and told Gore. like don't give up yet this is every. it's too too weird essentially I'm. paraphrasing here yeah which is true but. despite that Gore was like I I don't I. think we lost and so we even went to the. um extent of waking his his um wife.

Tipper who uh was not actually sleeping. she was under the blankets with a. flashlight making a list of bands that. she didn't like and their kids and said. hey I lost essentially and the kids. started crying so he started to um get. ready to do his concession speech that's. how close this came he called he also. called Bush called George Bush and said. hey congratulations you know you're the. winner obviously and he got into uh Li. limo to go give a concession speech in. Nashville to his supporters and on the.

way the um one of his operatives said. hey I've been watching the the um the. Secretary of State site in Florida and. Bush's lead went from 50,000 to 6,000 I. don't think we should concede yet and. the literally this happened in the. Caravan on the way for him to give his. concession speech at like 3:30 in the. morning yeah and so because there were. still some precincts that had been. unreported so they were like slow your. roll Gore uh so Gore called up Bush.

again could not have been a fun phone. call told him what was going on uh. apparently there are people that heard. these calls and said Bush said uh you. know are you really going to withdraw. your concession and Gore responded quote. well you don't have to be snippy about. it so Bush said well my brother is a. governor of Florida and he said he said. I won and Gore said well let me explain. something your younger brother's not the. ultimate Authority on this that that.

that I think the Al Gore finally came. around at the end but George Bush he. sounded like a cross between yimy Sam. and a member of Leonard skinnard yeah. that's about right actually now that you. mentioned it that's like dead. on yeah so it was I mean between them. interpersonally it got a little sticky. right at the beginning yeah I think. George Bush even said you can't I you. can't retract you're not allowed to do. that essentially daddy can he do that so. yeah that that was it was a really big.

deal I don't think that it had actually. happened. before not as far as I know I think this. was sort of the first thing yeah there. were a lot of first things in this. election yeah so by 4:00 the networks. all retract their calls and basically. this is what you know younger Chuck. wakes up to in West Texas which is we. don't know who won uh Tom broka gets on. NBC and says quote uh we don't just have. egg on our face oh wait that was Al Gore.

light I'm getting all confused now I I. heard a little broa in there I used to. could do broa uh we don't just have egg. on our face we've got an homelet all. over our suits at this point and our. faces and everywhere else that was great. that was a great broke call and he. always sounded like he was out of breath. it wasn't that he got on Chuck this was. 400 a.m. he was still on from when he. got on at 7 pm oh yeah like this poor. guy and Tim russer at least just on NBC. alone are like. just dying here but they've never seen.

anything like it and and again like as. you said this was a this was a big deal. in that it was really embarrassing it. was a really big thing to call to be the. network that called the presidency so it. was equally humiliating to be the. network that had to retract it and that. happened to all the the networks but. that also had a really big impact on. public opinion MH at first they were. like well well Gore won so so um that. means that if you guys called this at.

before 8:00 p.m. Eastern there were. still polls open in the west coast and. how many Bush voters did you discourage. from turning out because you'd said Gore. already won and then the opposite of it. was that when they said Bush won but. then retracted it people were like no. bush is the winner which made it harder. for Gore to get the public behind the. recount that he had going there was a. lot of public opinion about this a lot. of like opposition some manufactured.

some genuine as we'll see that um that. really makes a big deal you you think. you think for a second like well no it. just comes down to how many who got how. many votes or who who got how many. electors from the Electoral College no. like the public opinion has a lot of. sway in in a situation like this so the. everything that happened publicly was a. really big deal yeah absolutely uh Livia. who helped us out with this and did a.

bang up job by the way fantastic job uh. it was Keen to point out that there were. you know a few states that they didn't. have the full results about anyway uh. Oregon has very famously long had a vote. by mail system so uh it took a while to. get all those votes in um it eventually. went Gore's way uh New Mexico was uh no. one knew about New Mexico until December. 1st uh that eventually went Gore's way. as well and the Republicans were were. like should we get a recount going in.

New Mexico uh and Wisconsin and Iowa but. they basically cuz the margins were were. pretty low not enough to trigger any. kind of automatic recount but they. thought about contesting those but they. would have had to win all of the states. that they were thinking about contesting. and the writing was on the wall that. like Hey listen we're not going to win. all of these so we're not going to. contest any of them um we'll just it's. going to come down to Florida and we're. going to put all of our eggs in that. basket yeah cuz Florida had 29 electoral. votes and it could it would put either.

one of them in the the um the White. House that's how close this race was. that those 29 electoral votes going. either way did it for for them so um in. Florida if you have a um a margin of. Victory that's under. 05% the total tally of votes then um. there has to be a recount a machine. recount where basically you run all the. all the um the ballots through again and.

see what the count is right that's just. law um that's 0.5% this was. 0.1% difference out of 6 million votes. cast in Florida in the 2000 general. election a few hundred votes yeah. separated one candidate for president. from another and again because whoever. won Florida became president a few. hundred votes is what it came down to to.

determine who would become president. that time yeah because of how it works. in the United States if you're not from. the United States you can go back and. listen to our Electoral College episode. uh you want to hear angry I know uh. because no matter how you count the. votes Al Gore won the popular vote uh. just as Hillary Clinton won the popular. vote uh in America it doesn't matter who. gets the most votes because we have the. EC in place Place uh but just a quick.

sketch of it though if anybody doesn't. actually feel like going and listening. to the episode again Chuck's right it's. it's worth listening to but in the. United States in a state Whoever has the. most votes gets usually all of the. electors that that state has to offer. and so in reality what you're really. running for as president is electors so. you want to win States and you can. strategically win some states over the. others and lose the popular vote and and. win the electoral college still become. president because you got more electors.

even though more Americans voted for the. other person and that's the that's the. big controversy because it's super. undemocratic because the general. population doesn't actually decide um. basically strategy decides it it doesn't. always wash out to be the person who won. the popular vote well since we're. talking George Bush should we say. strategery again you can go back and. listen to that episode and we'll we'll. touch on that a little bit at the end. end but that's either here nor there.

because we do have the EC and Florida. was very very close and there were. people and the I mean we knew it was. going to be a tough fight at that point. because a Jeb Bush is uh the governor of. Florida georg's brother uh the Secretary. of State in Florida Katherine Harris at. the time was co-chair of the Bush. campaign there and the State Attorney. General uh was a Gore guy uh Bob. Butterworth so nuts that this is even. the head of the the gore campaign so.

this thing was just fraught from the. jump yeah well Chuck I think with that. it's a good place for a break what do. you say all right let's do it we'll get. right back. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. okay.

[Music]. all right so here we are it's November. uh people don't know who the president. of the United States is going to be yet. things are starting to get pretty tense. and America is going to start learning. um some very specific terms and uh ins. and outs as far as to how Florida. conducted their elections at the time um. they used in a lot of the counties a. punch card system where you had a little.

card puncher and you would look at the. candidate's name and there was a little. perforated Square beside that and you. would use your little puncher to punch. that thing out uh the little square that. gets removed is called a Chad. and depending on how punched out this. Chad was determine whether or not your. vote was counted uh and there were a. bunch of terms at the time that um sort. of had to Define what this all meant uh. a dimple or pregnant Chad which means. you you tried to punch it and it was.

indented but it was still fully attached. uh was a dimpled or pregnant Chad uh you. had The Swinging Door Chad where two. corners are attached and then you had a. hanging door Chad or what eventually. became known as just a hanging chad. where you punch all the way through. except one little corner remains. attached. and that's the situation that determines. the the leader of the Free. World it's. not right and weird but that that was.

the situation under Florida law if you. are an elections uh board in a county. you during a recount you have to try to. determine what the intent was of the. voter based on the ambiguous ballot they. turned in right yeah which is huge like. again the the Florida law says the. intent of the voter is what matters. right and that the the election board. during a recount has to determine what. the the intent is but there's no rules.

there's no Statewide rules there's. really no rules unless um canvas board. like adopts them themselves to determine. what what a voter meant based on all. those different types of Chads right so. they made this up as they went along or. in some cases counties already did have. uh rules on the books as far as as Chads. go like Palm Beach County yes Palm Beach. county is a good example because Palm. Beach County arguably is where the um.

entire election flipped yeah but they. had a policy that they'd had for 10. years since 1990 that said if you have a. dimpled or pregnant ched it doesn't. count it's a it's a spoiled ballot and. that vote doesn't count but if you have. any kind of partially detached head a. swinging door a tri Corner a hanging. chad any of those that counts as a vote. like like the the person clearly meant. to vote using that they had they during. the recount they just abandoned that and.

they tried something instead called the. light test where you would and there's. pictures of people doing this where you. would hold the ballot up to a light. source to see if any light shown through. and if you could in the year 2000 this. is what we're doing if you could see any. light then that counted and they. realized that actually that totally went. against the rules that you could have a. a type of hanging chad and light still. not come through so then that means you. don't count that ballot and they just. gave that and went back to the original. rules this was the kind of catastrophe.

that was going on during the recount in. Florida and everyone was reporting about. every single minute of it and the entire. country was like what is going on and. the people in Florida who were in charge. of all the recounts are freaking out. because if you read about these boards. they're like they're not made for this. kind of stuff they're not this is all. totally new and all of a sudden the New. York Times And The Washington Post are. standing over their shoulder watching. them and Reporting on it and they're.

just flipping out so they're doing just. all sorts of goofy stuff that just. doesn't make any sense because they's. just like deer and headlights yeah yeah. absolutely um and these aren't huge. boards like in one County it was like. three people yeah I think that was Dade. County where Miami is yeah which is just. nuts um we should talk about the. butterfly pallet for I don't know if I. can uh this was the ballot in Palm Beach. County uh you sent me a picture of what. this ballot looked like I'm a I'm a.

reasonably intelligent adult human and I. looked at this ballot and it confused me. a little bit um you should just look it. up look up a picture of the Palm Beach. County butterfly ballot Bush Gore. election uh but what it is it's um. candidates on on two sides like. butterfly wings all the way down and in. the center between all those are the. little punch holes uh with. but here's the thing is those if you.

look at the two sides they're they're. not aligned all the straight away across. one's a little higher on the left one's. a little lower on the right and on the. left number one position is George Bush. right under that is Al Gore on the right. number one position is Pat Buchanan but. the way it aligns and there are little. arrows that point at the holes but it's. it's confusing and it's very it would be. very easy to think oh no I don't want to. vote for Bush I want to go down one and.

vote for Gore but down one was actually. on the other side slightly lower as Pat. Buchanan and it was just a very. confusing ballot and they found that Pat. Buchanan got about four times the vote. in that county than he did. Nationwide uh and that that alone and. and I'm not saying no one knows what. would have happened for sure but it was. a funky looking ballot Pat Buchanan had. a very highly skewed amount of votes and. and those amount of votes would have.

firmly uh given Al Gore victory yeah and. to um to make it even more confusing. that the candidates were numbered didn't. even start with one and two it started. with three and then Buchanan was four. gore was five MC Reynolds was six MC. Reynold was a socialist so there was one. way that you could accidentally not vote. for Bush you would accidentally vote for. Buchan and Below him there were two ways. to accidentally not vote for Gore you. could accidentally vote for Buchanan. above Gore or MC Reynolds below Gore and.

like you said Pat Buchanan is is very. instructive the number of votes he got. from the butterfly ballots even. comparing other Palm Beach County voters. who voted by mail absentee ballot that. wasn't a butterfly ballot his numbers. were way less uh compared to the. butterfly ballot votes so suffice to say. that a lot of people accidentally voted. for Pat Buchanan who meant to vote for. Al Gore or George Bush but probably more. out Gore because Palm Beach County uh is.

a strongly Democratic County in Florida. all right so in Miami day uh which I. think you said was the most populous. Florida county yeah um initially that. three person uh that threers canvasing. board said they were going to manually. recount 650,000 ballots uh they realize. that's overwhelming and probably. impossible because it was a looming. deadline so they said all right why. don't we just count the. 10,750 ballots that the computer system. rejected cuz those are the ones that are.

in question and we feel pretty good that. that the other votes had been you know. counted properly because they were fully. punched no no Chad. issues uh the GOP leaders uh said hey. canvasing board you're trying to rig. this in favor of Gore uh and they tried. to get all the uh the local Cuban. Americans riled up and saying like hey. this is the kind of stuff that happens. under Castro like you need to come down. here and and and stay a protest like. this will not stand and what ended up.

happening was what was called the uh. Brooks Brothers Riot because it was not. uh local Cubans it was not in fact in. most cases local uh Floridians that came. to protest but it was Washington DC uh. political operatives and insiders that. came down and they gave themselves Away. by the clothes that they wore that's why. it was called the Brooks Brothers Riot. people at the time were saying like uh. and they were trying to deny it saying. they were like local Floridians and they.

were like well you're certainly not. dressed like somebody from Miami you've. got a Brooks Brothers uh suit cat on. sport cat on in fact most of you do and. they went down there and they were. successful they gathered in the plaza. they screamed voter fraud they were. banging on Windows and handing out. crying towels and saying you're a sore. loser and it worked they succumbed to. the pressure and stopped the recount. yeah so uh by the way Ted Cruz is one of. those operatives who was in the who was.

in the riot this state this essentially. fake Riot although if you read an. interview there's a I think a Washington. Post interview with Brad blakeman who is. the guy who um was responsible for for. staging this protest and organizing it. that um he sounds like he genuinely. believed that this canvasing board was. trying to throw the election to gore and. that that really fueled a lot of it so. it's difficult in that respect to fault. him and his his group for for protesting.

like that on the other hand it's very. clear that this this Brooks brother. brothers Riot they were accused of. violence against um election officials. uh they were at the very least very. hostile and in yourr face again these. canvasing boards are not not cut out for. this kind of Life they didn't know what. the heck they were signing up for and. the the Brooks Brothers rioter. essentially intimidated them out of of. this very Democratic process of. recounting by hand ballots that had been.

rejected by the computer there was no. evidence whatsoever that the computer. was selectively rejecting Gore ballots. in order for him to to come in and. clinch the uh presidency in a very. dramatic win in Miami Dade it doesn't. make any sense that that that would have. favored Gore what they were doing was. trying to stop the recount in the wase. because Bush was ahead that was entire. point on November 9th the the Secretary.

of State Catherine Harris was trying to. certify the election because bush had. 327 more votes than Gore and so what. these Republican operatives were doing. in the Brooks Brothers Riot was trying. to stop the count right there to to keep. George Bush's lead that was their goal. so it seems like blakeman's view that. what they were doing was illegal may or. may not be disingenuous I'm not sure. sure right yeah uh so these recounts are.

are happening and the Secretary of State. Harris like you said um all of a sudden. the Florida state supreme court got. involved and she wanted to certify like. you said on the 14th but the Supreme. Court said no you have to count all the. votes you can't certify the election you. you need to count them all uh you can't. just throw out the votes that are in. dispute uh so there are four counties. that you need to do a hand recount on. and over the next month uh between you. know November and December there were.

more than 50 lawsuits uh being filed by. all sides everyone all over the place is. filing lawsuits about recounting and. Counting and deadlines and different. various counties across Florida and. eventually on December 8th the Florida. Supreme Court came out and this is very. important and ruled 4 to3 that you have. to count What's called the undervotes. meaning these votes uh that are unclear. that the Bush campaign wanted to just. throw out uh you got to count all these.

votes and if you haven't done that yet. in these counties you got to do it uh. the Bush campaign said well we don't. want to count all the votes cuz we're. ahead the gore campaign said well great. count all the votes that's Dem democracy. at work and so the Supreme Court of the. United States gets involved and all of a. sudden on December 11th you are getting. oral arguments ments uh on the Supreme. Court of the United States about how uh.

like basically a lot of things um. chiefly one of which is should the. federal government get involved when. states are supposed to run their own. elections yeah I say we take a little. break and and just prepare ourselves for. the the catastrophe that is Bush Vore. what do you say let's do. [Music]. it. [Applause]. [Music].

[Applause]. [Music]. so Chuck the like you said the Florida. Supreme Court said no you need to hand. count all of those ballots that the. computers rejected to figure out who who. won and um the Bush campaign suit to get. that stopped and got it picked up by the.

Supreme Court the Supreme Court on. December 9th issued a stay very strange. that is very unusual for the Supreme. Court to get involved in a a State Court. ruling federalism basically says you. don't do that stop yeah a stay was stop. the the hand count don't do that anymore. and then even more unusual without the. Bush campaign petitioning for the. Supreme Court to hear the case the. Supreme Court agreed to hear the.

case and what they did was take this up. it sounds confusing yeah but but yeah no. one no one in the bush Camp asked the. Supreme Court to decide on the merits of. the case and yet the Supreme Court. decided to decide on the merits of the. case and again this is highly unusual a. state Supreme Court's ruling for a state. matter um is pretty much sacran in in um. Supreme Court like US Supreme Court. tradition Supreme Court does not get. involved in that kind of stuff and they. said hey let's get involved in this this.

this Hornet's Nest right. now yeah exactly so what we ended up. with were a couple of rulings uh there. was a 7 to2 ruling that uh it violated. the equal protection Clause of the 14th. Amendment because the argument from the. bush side was Hey listen there isn't a. codified. Statewide uh way that everyone has. agreed to do these recounts and so that. violates the equal protection clause and.

on the gore side he was saying well. there is a codified way maybe not in the. way they do it but the law is intent to. vote and that's that's on the book so. that's how we should decide right and so. the idea of applying the equal. protection Clause doesn't really make. sense because in America every state has. different ways of voting not just among. the states but among the counties in an. individual State it's all over the place. like it's up to the county to decide. what kind of voting machines they want.

to use how many to have like it's up to. generally the county if not the state. right so that's a really weird thing to. say no this particular state is. violating the equal protection Clause so. we're going to say stop doing this hand. count we're going to rule in favor of. that because of the equal protection. clause and then secondly the other thing. about the equal protection Clause Chuck. is what they were saying was everyone is. not going to have their their vote vote. counted because it's un the because of. the inequity and how you vote so what.

we're going to do is just make sure we. don't count some people's votes to. protect them and keep them equal doesn't. make any sense. whatsoever yeah and on that first point. I believe it was either Brier or sutor. in The Descent said uh kind of pointed. out what you were saying was saying like. well hey if this that means that that no. state has a fair election right because. every single state and every single. County like you said has different like. Josh Clark will one day say he said mhm.

uh has different ways of doing things so. if you say that about this then no no. state has a uh a free election or a fair. election or whatever everything is. called into question right and that. can't be the case uh the other. concurring uh decision was even more. important and I think we said it was 7. to2 because Brier and sud are actually. uh as quote unquote liberal justices. sided with the quote unquote. conservative side which is so weird. because it's such aad bad legal argument. I know I don't know um well it's.

interesting maybe it wasn't sudor or. Brier then that said what I said it was. probably John Paul Stevens oh I think it. was Stevens um but the concurring and. this is the really the most important uh. decision which was a 54 ruling on you. know I know they're supposed to be. impartial but uh there were five. conservative justices at the time four. liberal justices and it ended up a 54. concurrent ruling that not only uh can. you do the recount but like there's no. time and because of uh what's called.

Safe Harbor which is this date uh a. deadline for states to resolve issues. over the selection of their state. electors and that was approaching uh. whereas the liberal justices said well. hold on that doesn't mean that's not. when they cast their vote at the. Electoral College they're still six days. after that there's plenty a there's. plenty of time to do that and B had you. not issued a state to begin with. MH they would be done by now probably. and we wouldn't have even been called on.

so we ended up causing a problem with. the stay that we are now ruling that. we're now ruling on by by instituting. that stay they caused the problem it's. just perfectly put they caused the. problem that they were saying was the. problem and the reason that they were. saying you you have to stop the recount. it's too late isn't that nuts yeah RBG. and her uh very famously in her descent. usually say I respectfully descent and. she just said I dissent which was. doesn't sound like a big deal but those.

words matter and it was a big deal uh. and she was also like saying hey wait a. minute this contradicts all of our. Federalist principles that this is a. state matter and that we shouldn't get. involved with this to begin with so it. was a uh a not only a landmark ruling. but one that was just fraught with upset. on all sides and up and down the. political spectrum and to the citizens. of the United States even more. suspiciously there's a really great. article from the Nevada law Journal um.

from 2012 written by um Mar s Broden and. um he he uh points out there was a lot. of books written about this afterward. and he said that at least three of the. conservative justices had like personal. um what's it called when you're supposed. to recuse yourself I guess conflicts of. interest yeah yeah one was that. scalia's son. Law Firm was arguing the case in front. of the Supreme Court for the bush side.

yeah another was that Clarence Thomas's. wife jinny um was looking for was like. accepting resumés on behalf of the. Heritage Foundation to set up a Bush. Administration and then thirdly um I. think Sandra de o Conor yeah she was. trying to retire I think yes she wanted. to retire so she didn't want Gore to win. because she didn't want to have to stay. on for four more years uh so that a. Democrat wouldn't pick her replacement. so these three had like actual like.

personal vested interests in the outcome. of this election three of the five did. at least and even putting that aside the. fact that the Supreme Court got involved. in the first place was a terrible idea. the the fact that they decided the. election was a terrible idea the legal. idea that they ruled on was terrible and. then the idea that anybody had even an. iota of personal interest in the outcome. was a really big deal and today like. Supreme Court is definitely under.

question as far as political activism is. concerned uh and I'm sure it has been. for a while but it really feels like. common knowledge these days yeah in 2000. that was really new that was a really. big deal people thought very very. differently about the Supreme Court in. 2000 compared to how they think about. him today yeah and on those a couple of. things you mentioned um Scalia son who. was part of the law firm that argued uh. the bush case he uh very soon after the. election was given a cabinet position.

right right uh and Sandra Day o'conor. this isn't just speculation that she. wanted to retire like wasn't she it was. either on tape or like people that were. with her when they called it initially. for Gore like said she was like oh crap. basically yeah like this means I got to. work another four years she said this. was this is um this is terrible and her. husband explained that they had been. planning on retiring when now she. couldn't if Gore won all right uh so. just want to clear up that wasn't just.

like you know some opinion we Ling out. there right and then sorry there's one. more legal thing the gore Camp really. dropped the ball because legally the. bush um campaign had no legal standing. in this matter they weren't the injured. party the injured party was the. potentially disenfranchised voters of. Florida not the Bush campaign so the. Bush campaign had no um standing to. bring this case to the Supreme Court in. the first place and the gore team didn't. even mention it and that might have been. the thing that put enough public.

pressure on the Supreme Court to just. toss it and say no whatever the Florida. Supreme Court said stays and they just. dropped the ball that hard yeah and this. isn't a surmising because we're not. smart enough uh legally speaking like. multitudes of legal Scholars have come. out and said like why didn't they argue. standing like that that was what would. have changed the outcome yeah it's crazy. how many just small things would have. changed the outcome let's talk about. that. uh sure uh so Libya appropriately calls.

this autopsy report because after. something like this they don't just go. all right well that was that went as it. should go and everything was super. smooth I mean regardless of who won or. lost right if it would have been Gore it. would have been same thing it would have. been like boy what a mess right this is. not how elections are supposed to be. decided in the United States so. afterward there were all kinds of. studies all kinds of people uh writing. legal papers and just really studying. the data uh the University of Chicago's. National opinion Research Center which. is an independent uh organization they.

did a review and they said uh what we. found out was that more Florida voters. attempted to vote for Gore uh but enough. of them like you know marked their. ballots. inappropriately uh and that um not only. that but like each side would tried to. do things that would have hurt their own. camp like uh I believe it was um gor was. trying to get these four counties hand. recounted uh that actually would have.

ended up helping Bush and at one point. Bush was trying to uh make the the the. detached at two corners vote count that. would have helped Gore so it was just a. big plate of spaghetti as far as you. know the time because they were all just. sort of very quickly in real time. reacting to things that they never. thought they would have to react to and. sometimes doing things that would have. even hurt them their chances at winning. yeah and another study found that just. in Palm Beach County alone the overvotes.

people who voted for more than one. person where there were just two um the. ones that went to that included Pat. Buchanan they they decided about 75% of. those were because of ballot design and. it I think 2,000 votes would have gone. to Al Gore which would have flipped the. entire State because George Bush won. Florida by 537 votes right so it it's. not 100% clear what would have happened. because even if that that recount would.

have gone on other Studies have shown. like no actually Bush might have still. won based on the autopsy we we conducted. so it's still in 2023 not clear who. actually won the 2000 election yeah and. if you're asking yourself like all right. Florida had a law in place about intent. uh to vote as like that's what matters. uh one way that you can measure intent. is like to look at that Chad and see you. know was it clearly trying to be punched.

for a candidate uh another way you can. do that is a as a right to remedy you. can get in touch with people and say all. right you got another chance like it. looks like you marked your ballot in an. inconsistent way um try again and they. did this in different counties in in. some counties in Florida which let it. really helped it led to an error rate of. less than 1% uh but in the in the only. predominantly black county in the state. of Florida at the time uh gadston County. uh they did not allow them to remedy the.

ballots and there was uh a. 12.4% uh invalidated ballot rate. compared to under 1% so there was just. hinky stuff going on all over the place. yeah and Bush Vore is um like a toxic. zombie legal case that won't die and. should have never happened in the first. place but there is a really strange. appendage to that that we've talked. about before I think in our Supreme. Court precedent. judicial precedence episode yeah I think. so where they said that it's limited to.

the present circumstances and as that. Mark Bowden guy wrote in the Nevada law. review they basically attached like a. warning sign like warning do not use. this as precedent that essentially the. Supreme Court's just deciding the. president here and it this doesn't apply. to any other ruling because it shouldn't. have happened anyway in the first place. right um and yet it's still cited as. precedent all over the place it's it's. it's cited by both sides actually even. though shouldn't be whatsoever and. that's just one of this um kind of.

afterlife of the 2000 election that's. still going on yeah absolutely uh a lot. of things have changed since then uh. Ralph nater uh for the green party. certainly did not win any friends on the. left uhuh because he got close to. 100,000 votes in Florida um you know. most of which probably would have gone. to Al Gore and he he ran again uh even. though everyone was like I love you. nater but stop screwing up the elections. if you're a Democrat right and he was.

like yeah I don't care you know I. believe in what I'm doing and so he ran. again in. 2004 uh you know as far as mounting a. third party bid that it certainly put a. damper on that uh a lot of people say. the two- party system being so locked in. stone is one of the big problems in this. country MH uh and another thing that. happened was States immediately were. like oh boy um we can't do this again. Florida for sure and other states were. like these Punch Cards like we got to.

get into the we got to get with the. times here and have a more secure way of. voting than just people punching a card. like it's you know 1875 right and you. will see no more Chads uh all these. changes sort of Nationwide from state to. state culminated in the most recent 2020. election uh wherein uh Donald Trump's. own uh Department of Homeland Security. and cyber security and infrastructure. Security Agency said uh was the most. secure election in American history with. no evidence that any voting system.

deleted or lost votes changed votes or. was in any way compromised so uh. thankfully so many changes were put in. place uh to make sure something like. this didn't happen again yeah and the. Electoral College was this kind of this. weird wonky thing that happened in the. background in 2ou until 2000 and it. really kind of brought to the four like. what a potent and also undemocratic. institution this is and so a lot of. people are like we need to get of this. thing and apparently in a 2020 poll by. the Pew organization 58% of American.

adults said they would support a. constitutional amendment that said the. Electoral College is nil and void well. you're never going to get that on a. ballot I don't know man I don't I don't. know I don't understand why it's not. already it is such an enormous. problem yeah I wish there were more what. do you call those referendums yeah where. they would just let human the American. public vote on things rather than people. to decide the things well that's what's. been going on with abortion access.

they've been they've been strategically. purposfully getting them on ballots that. don't have other politicians to get. people to just vote on on the one issue. yes and it is a great idea because then. you actually see what the people. actually think about it you know it's I. think that's a great idea too Chuck yeah. how however way any of it goes let. people decide because I think we've all. seen that elected. representatives you know they don't.

always necessarily reflect the will of. their people you know what I'm saying no. and another thing is I mean pretty much. everybody on both sides can point to. Congress and be like you guys don't do. enough these days um if if voters voted. on referenda then you know the voters. could do the work that Congress is. supposed to be doing passing laws yeah. well they don't want to do that cuz one. of those first referenda would be term. limits and they're like oh no let's not. do that you got anything. else oh man I got nothing else can't.

wait till next November that's going to. be a lot of fun I I I don't know if I. can do it Chuck um well since Chuck just. laughed at my pain I think everybody. it's time for listener. mail oh this one's a great one uh this. is from. Dan uh. shefflin and Dan well I'm just going to. read it it's pretty amazing okay I hope. you saw this one if not you should go. look it up okay uh Hey guys as I as I. write you I'm en sconed in the warm cab. of a Caterpillar tractor jostling along.

the snow cupboard Ross ice shelf on my. way to the amonson Scott South Pole. station I did not see this this is cool. he included a picture of this Caravan uh. 5 days ago when we left uh McMurdo. Station on Ross Island the starting. point of the South Pole Traverse we were. 1,38 mi from the South Pole my current. ground speed is 7.1 mph which is a. pretty good Pace uh our speed can be. much slower at times depending on snow.

and a variety of other conditions there. are 14 of us who embarked on this 25 to. 30-day Journey each in our own tractor. hauling mostly fuel to resupply the. South Pole station but also cargo and. the living modules uh where we eat and. sleep and use the bathroom uh our toilet. is called the uh incinolet and you. guessed it it's a turd burning rig very. glamorous so they're they're in these. tractors just slow rolling it to the.

South Pole that's amazing to deliver. supplies and fuel that's really amazing. stuff uh and he he had a picture of this. Caravan it's so cool uh as you can. imagine I have a lot of time sitting in. this tractor and quite a bit of that. time is dedicated to listening to. podcast yours included been a faithful. listener since 2010 uh we have a. whiteboard inside our Galley and a post. I post daily uh a podcast recommendation. and today I put up naked mole rats a. face only a mother could love because. that one blew my mind guys how can they. be so. interesting uh and that's from Dan shiin.

and he says big shout out to his wife. Marcy uh as well as the guys on the. Traverse so man you don't think about. people out there doing these wacky jobs. but Dan and the Gang out there on the on. the slow train are doing it that's. really cool thanks a lot Dan shout out. to Mary for putting up with Dan driving. around the South Pole on a slow train. yeah um and thanks for the picture too. Dan I'm looking for I can't find it. right now so send it to me will you. Chuck I will if you want to be like Dan.

and just blow our minds with a picture. of where you are or some info about what. you do we would love that you can blow. our minds by wrapping that information. up into an email and sending it off to. stuff podcast iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts ihart. radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite. [Music].

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