Taylorism: Work Faster! | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. [Music]. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too timing us telling us to hurry up. scowling at us even which makes this. another average episode of stuff you. should. know she said get this in 45 minutes on. the nose no more no less and then she.

went uh and walked out of the room. holding a. pillow was that me or Jerry that was. Jerry okay I'm usually the timekeeper. are you I never noticed with your new. Swatch yeah no I just feel like I'm the. one that's like 45 minutes and you're. like no let's make it three hours I. don't like three-hour podcast but I also. don't like living under the clock which. is why I probably would not have. personally liked Frederick Winslow. Taylor yeah should we talk about this.

guy I don't think we have any choice and. by the way this is not a biopic it's not. a biography or a profile it's about a. man that you can't not talk about but. really this is about his whole system. okay I just want to make that clear to. use well I don't want to hear about that. guy right well TS you're gonna have to. uh big thanks to Livia because. she pushed out another Banger here um. thanks in part by the this great great.

article in the New Yorker from uh Jill. leapor who uh Livia calls a genius. absolute genius in fact is a quote she. she definitely is great article anyway. um I think the setup that Livia gave is. kind of worthy of going over a little. bit because when you look at the you. know 1900 through the 1920s and 30s you. looked at an America that was really. changing uh in that these huge.

Industrial. Revolution uh born industries were all. of a sudden like hey now we're now we're. kind of Corporations and now we have. middle managers and CEOs and things it's. a little different than it used to be. right and so we need to start kind of. really thinking about how to squeeze. every dime out of this company we can. and make these workers we'll call it. efficiency but between us let's say. let's call it working them to the bone.

until they're near exhaustion so we can. maximize profits yeah and I could just. hear our left leaning listeners going. boo his but efficiency was not in and of. itself a naughty word on either side of. the political Spectrum at the time um. because you could also hope that a more. efficient um Factory or a more efficient. Workforce or a more efficient whatever. would um increase productivity but also. give workers like more free time and.

then ideally a larger share of the. profit in the form of higher wages right. yeah that's how that works right exactly. I mean I can't imagine a more naive. Progressive Movement than that but. that's exactly what they were hoping for. but not just hoping for they were. fighting for it agitating for it um. doing whatever they could taking it to. the courts sometimes they were. successful but I think we all know. spoiler alert in the long run they lost. thus far that's right and a lot of the. work being done on efficiency uh can be.

laid at the feet of a person and then. some other people but initially at least. this guy that you mentioned Frederick. Winslow Taylor y who uh was from. Philadelphia born in. 1856 uh had an attorney father and. abolitionist mother he's a very smart. guy and was all set to take Harvard by. storm before his eyesight started to. fail right um after that got better he. may not have gone to Harvard but he was. still really smart guy and ended up.

studying engineering at night and became. a chief. engineer uh for the Enterprise hydraulic. Works in Philly and then uh midevil. Steel company yeah Midvale Steel company. that's where he really made his name I. think that's where he became the chief. engineer and one of the one of the. things he did as he was working his way. up um was he he was I guess out of the. gate obsessed or at least deeply. interested with the idea of doing.

something in the least number of. movements the most precise way the most. foolproof way and that if you studied a. task closely enough and understood it. well enough you could find the most. efficient way to do it and so over like. his 26 year career at Midvale he. conducted more than. 30,000 experiments in metal cutting. figuring out which tool went with which. motion went with you know how to grab.

the tool the best way um and from that. he ended up writing a book called on the. art of cutting Metals in. 1907 and from what I saw for years and. years that was considered like a Bible. in the metal cutting industry um and so. he he definitely put his money where his. mouth is and that's how he first kind of. got into the idea of becoming an. efficiency expert yeah I I think this is. a certain kind of. brain uh cuz I am on that Spectrum a. little bit and trying to weed out.

inefficiencies with certain things but. I'm on the side of the spectrum that is. also it comes from. laziness uh so I'll try and do that. because I'm inherently kind of lazy I. think so I'm like I'll look for ways to. cut Corners to still get the job done. right and I've had people compliment me. in in the old days like on film sets. like hey it you know I see what you're. doing there and you're the kid I would. hire twice whereas the guy next to you. who's just like no man let's just make.

eight trips and just hump it and and do. it right he's like I know he thinks he's. getting it done just the oldfashioned. way he's like but you're the guy we. would hire a second time and your. response is like well can I go home. early probably so but that was always my. aim but it's interesting that you know I. have that a little bit in my brain but. not like this guy did like he he was. obsessed with. efficiencies uh such that he thought and. he he's kind of right in some ways that. one of the biggest threats.

to getting something done in a. productive efficient way was slacking. off and what he called systematic. soldiering and I kind of agree with that. to a certain degree yeah remember in our. Peter principal episode we talked about. a corollary to that called Parkinson's. law which was like a tongue and cheek. law that work expanded to fill the time. allotted yeah yeah so yeah if you're. sitting there like making widgets um. sorry to be cliche but that's what I'm. going with um eight or 10 hour hours a.

day you're not going to be the most. efficient you can be you're going to be. about as efficient as um as as ambitious. as you are like your ambition how far. you want to go uh is basically equaled. in some weird ratio to the amount of. efficiency that you produce at your job. right so if you're like I'm happy here. I'm not going to bust my hump like that. guy to to go an extra half mile because. I'm not going to get anything in return. so I'm just going to do my job at a pace.

that I find acceptable and that the. people I work for find acceptable and I. mean if you want to call that slacking. off or being lazy fine and Frederick uh. Taylor definitely did but it's also just. kind of like being a human being you. know yeah and to be clear because I. think I it seems like I might have been. mischaracterized here the the film set. thing I was uh I wasn't like let's just. do the minimum I was I was in a. situation in this specific incident M.

where I was trying to do a little extra. work by uh getting a a a cart loaded. rather than just making a ton of. trips and the guys and he was like no. I'm won mess with getting that cart out. let's just hump all this stuff back and. forth right and they were like hey guys. or to me hey guy and I said my name's. Chuck right and they said hey Chuck uh. you're the guy I would hire twice. because you were taking the time to do. it more efficiently not like hey I. admire like the lazy side of you right.

and they appreciated your soft touch. with the donkey that pulled the cart. right but it was lazy and that I didn't. want to do all those trips that's where. it initially sprang from was I don't. want to have to tote all that stuff. eight times does that make sense yeah I. think the reason you're man we're really. going deep on this but I think the. reason that you're feeling. mischaracterized is because you're. misusing the word lazy that's not lazy. that's um what they call work harder not. or work smarter not harder yeah but you.

only do that if you got a little. laziness in you no that's not. necessarily true I think it's just. sensible okay but I'm also lazy then. how's that okay there you go but they're. not necessarily inextricably tied. together in that instance okay. anyway I don't think what you just. described qualifies as laziness but what. um Frederick um Taylor considered. laziness he called something called. systematic soldiering which I still. can't make head or Tales of it does not.

make any sense to me does it to you well. what does soldiering mean I I don't know. I mean you're you go off and fight. battles or you go and follow orders I. don't know I don't know what he. means did you look up soldiering uh no I. didn't I just accessed my brain data. banks uh well I'm going to look it up go. ahead we'll do a rare uh a rare look. okay serve as a soldier right or to.

Aha oh well no that doesn't make any. sense either like soldiering on right. persevering yeah I don't doesn't make. any sense to me officially as well it. makes no sense because that was his term. systematic soldiering I would call it. systematic leaning against something. yeah right yeah that's what he called. slacking off and like this guy was an. aristocat through and through right his. mother's family came over in the early. 1600s I think to America so like he was.

a wealthy blue blooded uh quicker boy. who because his parents were like do. gooders his mom certainly was she was a. suffragette an abolitionist um he was. raised to care about Humanity but he. also didn't have that um spark of. compassion that it takes to care about. humans individually so he cared about. creating a better Society for humans but. he couldn't really help but look down on. other people he considered lower than. him including immigrants so he did.

notice things like you're not working as. as hard as you can I'm going to see to. it that you work harder and he felt. totally comfortable with filling that. role and he actually created that role. for himself to fill which is uh pretty. remarkable if you ask me that's right so. he was at Midvale and he sort of started. breaking down the operations of the jobs. that they had there at Midvale and he. was like you know there's some. Elementary operations that happen here. so we're going to uniform and estimating.

department where we're going to sit. around and do time studies which he got. from uh class at Philips exiter MH and. we're going to time workers doing all. these little small tasks we're going to. add that up to the to the whole and kind. of average it out and say hey you should. be able to do this in that amount of. time and we'll adjust accordingly we'll. incentivize. accordingly and he said and and you know. what else this is now a new career uh. I'm gonna be a Consulting engineer in. management and I'm going to charge you.

to to tell you how bad you're doing. things yeah and so those management. companies like KPMG and McKenzie they. would not exist ostensibly had Frederick. Taylor not created that field like. that's what he created these huge just. Mega World influencing companies came. from this guy basically making up the. profession yeah and you know what we. should we should give a good example. here because what he was really most or. not most well known for but something he.

became very well known for was his work. at Bethlehem Steel mhm and he started. looking at the process of loading iron. onto rail cars pig iron and said all. right we need to figure out how much of. this stuff is reasonable for one of. these men to load onto a rail car uh the. average right now is 12 and a half tons. a day so what I'm going to do is I'm. going to get uh 10 large powerful. Hungarian workers mhm to and say hey. load as as much as you can as fast as.

you can 16 and2 tons is your goal and. they did that in 14 minutes whereas 12. and 1 12 tons was the daily rate for. their average worker so that 71 tons in. a 10-hour day he rounded up to 75 and. then said yeah but you know what people. get tired and they need brakes so let's. whack off 40% of that and we'll just. make we'll just call it even at 472 tons. per day which is four times as as much. as you've usually been doing that's.

that's the new expectation yeah and that. thing about people getting tired he. called the law of heavy laboring and. from what I can tell he made up that law. that I just put into scare quotes and. this is a really good example of what he. did like he was supposed to be precise. in finding like ultimate efficiency but. he was arbitrarily rounding up and. arbitrarily coming up with 40% off based. on this law that he made up and now you. kind of start to get to see like. behind the veil or like the the meat.

that's on the bones I don't know the. analogy I'm looking for but uh you can. pull back the curtain that's the one and. see that this stuff is actually not what. Frederick Taylor cracked it up to be The. Great Oz exactly not so much right it. wears no. clothes all right so when this happened. some people said I ain't doing this they. quit they got fired some people tried. and couldn't do it uh some people were. so tired from trying to load that much.

ore that they couldn't come back the. next day and things got really heated uh. he needed he hired armed guards to walk. him home at night Taylor did because he. was so worried uh and then he said all. right I'm going to create a new fake. scenario and this is something that I've. seen businesses do that I hate when they. create like you know here's our worker. Todd and Todd you know and it's all just. made up BS and that's what he did with. Schmidt. here's the thing though so Schmid yes.

was a fictional invention essentially of. Taylor's making but he went around the. country giving this this lecture or wot. wrote in his books like as if Schmid. this actually happened About Schmidt. yeah that was a great movie I really. felt uncomfortable when he made a pass. at the the wife of the friendly couple. that he met no no K other than that I. thought it was a great movie yeah um I. think at that point that was actually. just a out take of Jack Nicholson doing.

his thing oh yeah keep keep rolling the. cameras this is great so um like so he. was he put out there that this Schmid. character was like a real deal thing not. a madeup thing not a madeup anecdote to. prove his point and he actually did. consult at Bethlehem Steel where Schmidt. supposedly worked but the upshot of all. of it was this there was this guy named. Schmidt who was known to um work very. hard and he was also very motivated by. money because he was building his own. house and he needed as much money as he.

could get to build said house but not. too bright right not too bright that's a. really important point that Taylor would. hammer home any chance he got this guy. was sluggish mentally speaking is the. way that he put it but he got through to. him with a pep talk whereas essentially. he said are you a high-priced man and. Schmidt was like I don't know what. you're talking about um and when he. wrote About Schmidt he he like replaced. his W's with v's and stuff he was a. German immigrant.

um and he said well this is what a high-. pric man does he does everything that. his manager tells him to do if your. manager tells you to pick up that pig. iron and take six steps and then set it. down over there you do that if your. manager tells you to sit down and rest. for 90 seconds then after 90 seconds he. tells you to get up and then go grab. that piece of pig iron you do that too. with no back talk whatsoever that's a. high-priced man you you want to be a Mr. big boy pants exactly. and High Press men make more money so.

we'll give you not just the15 an hour. that you're making we'll give you a185. for making this 472 tongue quota and all. you have to do is do what your manager. tells you and this is the other thing. that I guess Frederick Taylor. revolutionized in a way he divided the. workforce into two parts managers who. had the brains and did the bossing. around and workers who were according to. Taylor meant to do. exactly what their managers told them.

and if you put the two together you. would have the most efficient way to to. say like um load pig iron onto a. railroad car that's right uh in this. anecdote who that he you know sort of. preached around as if it were real he. said then I did this it worked so great. Schmidt was so happy and Roland and do. right uh I got all of his co-workers to. to jump aboard because I showed him uh. what a Mr big boy pants look like and. everybody wanted big boy pants mhm and.

so everybody as long as you just uh do. what your boss says then you're going to. make more dough and forget the fact that. I'm choosing you know the the very. strongest workers to set the standard. for everyone and then in 1911 a US House. committee said yeah but we can't just. forget that because you can't just pick. the strongest worker and say that's the. standard for everyone and so he got into. a bit of a um tit for t uh in that.

um committee meeting I guess with. chairman William ballop Wilson MH and he. said you know what about if you don't. have big boy pants men on your staff and. like or all big boy pants men and he. said well it has no place for a bird. that can sing but won't and he kind of. got smacked down for that because he was. just lifting lines out of books that he. had written well yeah also William. Wilson said basically like um we're not. dealing with singing birds we're dealing.

with men here who are part of society. and for whom for whose benefit Society. is organized right so you can't. essentially you can't treat people like. automatons and drones and and robots um. you have to consider them as human. beings and the the lines from his book. that you mentioned apparently Jill aore. reported that he he did so poorly in. this Committee hearing that by the way. if you want to ever be nervous about. about a Committee hearing you have to go.

testify at um go to one that's literally. named after you this was this was this. hearing was called the house committee. to investigate Taylor not taylorism. Taylor and other systems of shop. management um and so he actually ordered. one of his underlings to go steal uh. William Wilson's copy of his book um and. I guess didn't wasn't successful and. just kind of went ahead with the. terrible testimony but as we'll see he. used it to turn bad publicity into any.

publicity which is good publicity that's. right uh the long and short of it with. Bethlehem Steel at least was that they. fired him uh they quit the tailor and. methods that he had brought in and he. said all right pay me $100,000 and we'll. call it even yeah uh which is about. three and a half million bucks today um. and that's probably a good time for a. break eh agreed all right we'll come. back and move on from Taylor for a. moment to talk about the guild breaths. right after this.

[Music]. okay Chuck you mentioned that we're. going to talk about the gilbreath so I. say we do that now um we're talking. about Frank and Lilian Gilbreth uh and. anyone who has ever read the book or. seen the the movie or the Remake Cheaper.

by the Dozen this is the family that. that movie and that book were based on. um Frankl L and Gilbreth were a one of. the more amazing interesting couples. that came out of the 20th century yeah. for sure uh and two of their kids wrote. that book in. 1948 uh and it you know it was fun it's. a classic for a reason they remade it. for a reason for sure to make. money uh Frank was a brick layer in his. um earlier life and he was one of these.

people that thought um including two but. not limited to cat skinning that there. was one best way to do any task and so. he was one of those guys where he was. like Hey that scaffold for laying bricks. is kind of great but what if there was a. shelf on the scaffold for those bricks. and mortar and you don't got to bend. over and pick that stuff up and what if. you had some really low paid laborers. that would stack the bricks on the. frames for them position in the right. direction so they don't even have to.

turn the bricks like really drilling. down on these efficiencies yeah and it. seems like Frank kind of came up with. this this U interest independently of. Frederick Taylor even though he and. Lilian and Taylor would essentially form. uh kind of a cadra of cohorts I guess. whoa yeah um band name that is this is. like an independent thanks this is an. independent these were two independent. groups who eventually came together. because they're they help develop this. field out of thin air um so what the.

gilberths did Lillian and Frank together. they formed the gilberth Inc a. management consulting firm um they got. really really in the Weeds about the. movements it took to carry out a task. and they figured out that you could. break any task down into 18 18 different. kinds of movements right so you're not. necessarily going to have all 18 but no. matter what task you're talking about. it's going to be made up of no more than.

those 18 specific kind of movements. things like um searching for an object. with your eye grasping an object. reaching for it disassembling it and. they call these things therbligs which. is their name roughly spelled. backwards do you think when they met uh. Taylor initially they were just like oh. my God you're into efficiency and so are. we and Taylor said I think you mean eff. fish. and they just like fainted yeah I think.

they right they're like you're our. guy uh yeah they're bigs so they were. also big into Rich Hall and. sniglets uh not to date myself but uh. yeah they made up a word and they said. any action you can take is a thg and we. want to get rid of as many thgs as. possible to make efficiency the most to. maximize it as much as one possibly can. yeah and to do that so they would use. their kids they ended up having a dozen. kids 11 of whom made it to adulthood one.

one of them died at age five of. diptheria sadly um and I don't know how. but they planned to have six boys and. six girls and I think they were. successful at that no idea how they did. that because we're talking about the. beginning of the 20th century it's. called luck okay um there is no way to. do that and they decided to raise their. kids in the under these principles of. efficiency but they weren't weirdo. clinical types like this was a tight. cool family like the kids were.

participatory like they would have. family meetings um and each kid had a. vote and so they would have a family. meeting and someone would put forward a. motion like I say we get a dog and. someone would second it and then they. put it to a vote and then you know the. eyes had it so they ended up getting a. dog they named Mr chairman like that was. how they ran their their family but they. were all very focused on efficiency. because they were obsessed with it but. not in a a a arious way um or deletrius.

way they they were. um I guess the best way to put it is. Lillian was searching for the most. efficient way to do something so that. you have more free time to go do happy. things she said so it can increase your. happiness minutes essentially so it was. a really different Viewpoint of the same. thing uh compared to to Frederick Taylor. yeah I mean Taylor you kind of talked. about a little bit early on but he he. did think it was a win-win he is like. this is great because it'll run more.

efficiently and you know it it'll. trickle down essentially they didn't. call it that yet but that's that's sort. of the same notion that like it'll just. trickle down to the worker all this. efficiency and they'll get better wages. and stuff will be cheaper and stuff like. that like management will never ever. take advantage of that and make you work. harder just to increase profits exactly. um and of course that's exactly what. happened in every case but. um I don't know like I'm kind of. wondering about Taylor's heart and like. what was in there you know yeah I yeah I.

think I explained it already I'm. sticking with my idea I don't know I. think he's one of those guys that was. so brain obsessed on efficiency I don't. know that he had like I don't know if he. thought that part through such that he. was like some evil person set out to. exploit a worker no I don't think he was. evil I don't think that he set out to. exploit workers but I think even after. he saw what his invention was being used.

for he was indifferent to that and that. says volumes about him he never he never. denounced it he never called people out. for misusing it and he actually helped. Foster its misuse to exploit workers so. I think he was a bit of a missing throat. not evil and that wasn't ever his. intention to be evil but when it turned. kind of evil he was he was like sure. let's keep going if you guys are giving. me money I wonder if he might have been. in an a age where there weren't certain.

diagnoses available for what he you know. may have had going on yeah maybe for. sure I mean it's possible I I think that. we're barreling toward a a future where. every single person has a diagnosis of. some sort or. another yeah maybe yeah it'll be. interesting you mean like there's no. perfect person and everyone has an an. issue that they're dealing with yeah. yeah for sure and I think we already. know that but we haven't we haven't come. up with a label for every single one of. those of issues that people are working. with that's the difference that I'm.

talking about yeah yeah for sure I don't. know I think sometimes that thing. empowers people I agree I don't think. I'm not saying there's anything wrong. with it I'm just interested to see like. where we're going but yes I agree we've. we've in large part as a society. scuttled the idea of the Uber MCH and N. is very unhappy about that yeah you know. what n n can do what I'll tell youall. Fair. okay uh I ionically there was it was a. Supreme Court Justice who we've talked.

about I feel like quite a bit on the. show um who kind of bumped Taylor up to. Celebrity Status yeah um how did we. pronounce his name the first 25 times we. said it it's. brandise okay that sounds right like U. light ice but a little different right. like Bud Ice yeah didn't Miller Light. have an ice too didn't everybody have an. ice for a while Light Ice I don't know. no I screwed it up then because I should. have said Bud Ice but yeah that's what I.

was going for I know Milwaukee's best. head in ice what do the deal with that. ice brood what even was that I I think. it got you tanked faster really yeah I. think it had something to it it messed. with the alcohol content or the way it. was delivered or something like that so. you had to drink 17 Miller lights. instead of 14 right exactly no the. opposite you had to drink 12 instead of. 14 oh okay uh all right anyway back to. 1910 brand ice uh Lou uh Louis brandise.

Supreme Court Justice called a meeting. with the Gil breaths and the Taylor ites. Taylor couldn't come but he sent his. representatives and said I want to I. want to talk about what I'm calling. scientific management and I am concerned. because I see what's happening with big. business and I think it's getting out of. hand I want to break up these monopolies. and I think the consumer and the worker. should be served and I think I called. one couple here who's probably. interested in that and another group of. people who sounds like they probably. aren't yeah and brandise is ironic.

because he was uh died in the wool. Progressive like you said he was worried. about big business and so the idea that. he's the one that made this concept. that's historically viewed as uh. exploitive of workers um famous and like. introduced to the world and essentially. gave it its like breakout moment uh it's. it's just terribly ironic but the the. whole basis of that is that um he was. arguing before the Interstate Commerce. Commission which was holding hearings on. Railroad rate hikes the railroad said.

stuff's getting expensive we need to. increase the um prices that we charge to. carry Freight to move Freight and of. course that has cascading effects all. throughout society and prices were going. to go up and brand ice represented a. bunch of companies that were going to. have to pay those increased rates and. brand I's argument was that they the. railroad companies don't need to raise. their rates they need to get more. efficient and here's how they can do it. this guy named Taylor has figured out a. scientific way of getting more efficient.

and that's how they can keep their. prices low and still keep their profits. High yeah I know it's a lot of press. coverage on this and this is really what. pushed Taylor over the edge as far as uh. becoming kind of famous for what he was. doing uh and that is the year I'm sorry. the next year is when he put out the. Principles of Scientific Management. which. was probably easily the biggest Business. book um maybe at the 20th century but at. least the first half of the 20th century. yeah for sure and he was writing on the. publicity from that uh Interstate.

Commerce Commission hearing but also. that Congressional hearing that came I. think later that same year uh he he saw. a opportunity to like get his name out. there even though his name was kind of. being dragged through the mud that's. right uh and one thing about taylorism. that we would learn soon enough and I. guess Gilbreth ISM did they even call it. that no I don't think so they weren't. they weren't those types well I'm going. to I'm going to call it that Gil brism. was that it didn't have to be kept to. the Workforce because uh lilan gilbreath.

found herself alone for the last 48. years of her life when Frank died of a. heart attack at the age of 55 in. 1924 and she said all right don't tell. anybody I'm no Homemaker myself not into. it at all I don't even do the cooking in. my house but I think I can shift these. efficiency ideas to the house and make. uh the home place a more efficient. workplace for getting everything done. from like vacuuming to baking biscuits.

yeah have you ever heard of the work. triangle in a. kitchen uh oh yeah that's a that's a. classic kitchen Chef thing she came up. with that as far as I know yeah for. those I did not know that but yeah but. for those of you who don't know what it. is the kitchen triangle is like the the. places where you do the most work and so. the idea is that they should be all. within a step or two from one another. the sink the oven and the ice cream. maker I don't remember what the third. one is the.

dishwasher dishwasher interesting I. think those are the three today at least. oh okay uh so anyway she came up with. that if you have a kitchen island you. can thank her I've seen um so yeah she. just kind of pivoted because people were. finding out that there was a woman that. ran gilberth Inc the management. consulting uh firm and were just walking. away from their accounts because it was. run by a woman so she had no choice she. had 12 11 kids to raise and um had to. provide for him she wanted to send them.

all to college so yeah she pivoted to. homech but it wasn't just her it's not. like she invented hch out a whole cloth. it was already being developed by a very. famous or should be famous lesbian. couple Flora Rose and Martha van Ren. rler yeah rler right I have no idea how. to pronounce that R re n SS e l a e r. rler yeah that's what I'm going with and. the reason I specifically called them. out as a lesbian couple uh is because.

they were out as a lesbian couple in I. believe the 1920s or 30s I had a I mean. you just did not do that and they were. like say something say just just bring. it and they were they just went on. challenge for their lifetime from what I. knew but they H they wanted to turn. working in the home into something. scientific domestic science um which. kind of elevated it St stat as well as. made things easier for the woman working.

in the home yeah uh and eventually you. could even find taylorism in public. Public. Schools uh and it's interesting to think. of it this way there was a a. Massachusetts. superintendent um who told the National. Education Association that Educators. needed to analyze the returns of their. investment rationally we ought to. purchase no more Greek instruction at. the rate of 5.9 pupil recitations for a. dollar the price must go down or will. she or we shall invest in something else.

and it sounds silly but I get I get that. uh it just sounds like a funny way to. talk about it but it's basically like we. need to invest in these kids the things. that really matter and not. necessarily uh reciting a a Greek poem. or something like that sure the only. question is who decides what really. matters and I think one of the things. about that is that at the time when that. guy was talking like that kids in public. schools were viewed as being trained and.

molded into the workers of tomorrow so. it was the government and the economy. who decided what was important and yeah. we weren't making a lot of money off of. reciting Greek poems like you were. saying so that would get scuttled in the. face of say um I don't know shop class. maybe what class shop shop yeah yeah I. had shop we didn't have a car auto shop. though did you guys have that no I was. just fascinated by that they had one on. Save By the Bell and I always thought.

that was the coolest thing it felt like. something that was in Generations. previous to us we just had shop class. where you made lamps and uh stuff like. that well there was a huge shift in the. American economy from car making to lamp. making in the the early 80s so I'm sure. that's what the result was shall we take. our second break or Soldier. through systematic Soldier yeah uh I say. we take our second break okay let's do. it we'll be right.

[Music]. back okay uh we're back I by the way I. think the kitchen triangle is probably. the fridge not the dishwasher would be. my guess oh yeah yeah yeah I forgot.

about the fridge yes yes absolutely. thank you I bet it's I bet you're right. though I bet it's sink stove oven and. fridge would be my guess sure yeah I. think you're. right because what if you don't have a. dishwasher right and I'm sure that she. didn't have a dishwasher in the 1930s. and 40s so you know yeah so you're. you're right Chuck just say it again I. think it was the fridge okay uh all. right so we're going to talk a little. bit about the just sort of what H like. what did taylorism accomplish ultimately.

mhm um there is a lot of irony in that. you know a lot of it was so scientific. supposedly but um a lot of the stuff was. made up or just sort of you know yeah. made up or kind of a sham right um this. wasn't new stuff like timing people on. tasks and teaching people to do do more. specific things um had been around for a. long time um but one of the effects of. taylorism is definitely like you know uh.

deskilling a worker um making them feel. and not that working is all about. emotions but you don't want to make your. employee feel like a robot that can be. replaced by a robot you want to give. them a little bit of agency ideally in a. job and not just say move your body this. way move your hand that way punch that. thing and then return back to position. one yeah and so deskilling workers um. taking away the overall understanding of. making say like a oven and just giving.

them the one job of putting the door on. the oven as it's coming down the. assembly line um not only does that take. away from job satisfaction it also makes. you way more replaceable because you. don't have to train somebody to build a. whole oven all you have to do is train. them to put that oven door on and then. you train somebody else to put the. thermostat in the oven and so on and so. forth and you the owner of the factory. has that oven you want uh but you have a. bunch of replaceable workers that you. can pay fairly low wages even combined.

compared to somebody who builds the oven. from scratch that is a huge like you. said that was already underway but. tailor ISM and the the fact that it was. so pervasive and widespread especially. in America in the first half of the 20th. century really solidified that as like a. basis of the American. Workforce yeah uh another effect I mean. I guess we've kind of said it in several. different ways from the beginning but. you you know the idea that the guild. breast had that there would be a. happiness quotient involved uh and where.

you you could do work more efficiently. so you could just have more time and. better wages to spend with your family. it just you know it didn't work out that. way um even though the whole idea of. tailor ISM in its at its base isn't uh. inherently anti-worker it sort of ends. up being that way when the profits are. being spread around the top tier and all. they want is more and more of those. profits yes and so to clear it wasn't. like every single time Taylor showed up.

like that's just how it went there were. some successful push backs over the. years there's one specifically uh at the. Watertown Arsenal in Massachusetts in. 1911 they made guns and I think for the. government it was a federal Arsenal and. Taylor sent one of his emissaries. essentially told him just make up a. number you don't even need the stopwatch. part and um I think word of that got out. and really kind of undermined that but. also. just the the process of being timed.

doing your job one of the workers said. I'm not doing that you can't time me and. he was fired on the spot and the rest of. the workers were like oh yeah well we're. going on strike and they ended up being. successful because again this was a. federal um Arsenal and those. Congressional hearings to investigate. Taylor one of the results of them was. that um the US federal government banned. taylorism from being used in any way. shape or form in any kind of federal. facility or. agency yeah but but overall I mean.

Taylor certainly won the day I mean. that's that's just how the economy is in. America and other like-minded countries. at like even though we've kind of walked. away from it overtly it's just gotten. more and more entrenched over the years. rather than further and further away. yeah for sure uh I mean probably the. most you know the biggest contribution. was it just raised the awareness and. in an obsession with productivity uh and.

productivity is is great it's not like. that's a bad thing but again like when. you're dealing with human beings um to. feel like a cog and to feel completely. replaceable there there there's no way. like you're not serving your own purpose. as a as a business owner uh because. you're not going to have good and happy. employees ultimately and replacing. employee after employee even if you're. just uh tring them to put the oven door. on that's still an inefficiency you know.

right no for sure and and yeah that's a. really great Point like you want to keep. employees yeah but I'm sure some bean. counter at some company somewhere was. like you still make more money firing. and training employees than you do. making them happy although that seems to. not be the case I was reading up on um. on uh management consulting which I. think deserves its own episode Down the. Line because apparently it's just. totally fraudulent so I think it'll be a. really great um interesting episode but.

um some Studies have shown from what I. saw just briefly reading about this uh. that the happier your workers are or I. should say economies that have happier. workers like more fulfilled workers. typically have um they're richer for the. most part uh I guess America is an. outlier because I think overall workers. are not necessarily happy with their. jobs or lack of job but supposedly if. you if you invest in your workers's. well-being and actual happiness and.

fulfillment with their job they're going. to work more for you they're going to. work harder because they care about what. they're doing totally so totally yeah. and then one of the other big things. that that shows that taylorism is still. alive and well today Chuck is computers. AI whatever you want to call it is is. they've fulfilled or they're fulfilling. the um role of managers that Taylor. envisioned so remember the manager was. in charge of figuring out the best way.

to do something and then instructing the. worker to do it exactly that way and. exactly that time that is what computers. do today for workers which is a bizarre. reversal of uh Authority I guess if you. think about it but that's the way it is. especially in places like you know big. warehouses or call centers um there's. computers essentially running the show. yeah for sure and it created the. Management Consultant. industry uh I think we should do one on.

that I don't I'm sure you remember and I. won't be very specific here but because. we've been owned by a lot of companies. over the years but one of one time one. of the companies that owned us hired a. dude that came in and we like who's this. guy and so I can't remember someone who. who knows how these things work took us. aside and they were like he he's I guess. I don't know if he was a Management. Consultant or what his official job was. but they're like his job is to come in. here and Fire people and rip this place. apart and then probably get a nice exit.

and move on to another job where he'll. do that exact same thing yes that's what. the industry does that do you remember. that guy no I don't remember that guy. you got to tell me remind you please do. I know Jerry's like screaming his name. off a right now um uh just one last. thing do you have anything more about. taylorism uh no okay great um well then. I do have just one last thing if you. want kind of a light-hearted look comedy. with heart at efficiency check out the.

1991 film the efficiency expert starring. Anthony Hopkins Oh I thought you gonna. say. gung-ho that was yeah kind of a. different one but yeah I'm sure there's. a lot of uh crossover for sure what's. this Tony Hopkins picture what is it the. efficiency expert it's exactly what you. just heard described and he ends up in a. I think a factory where it the the. workers make they change his view of. things I think they kind of turn him.

around oh if I remember correctly I. haven't seen it that would have worked. with the other guy that I mentioned he. was unflappable well anyway we're about. to end well wait hold on we got to do. listener mail don't we yeah and then. I'll tell you by the way Chuck I got to. tell you um that we ended on 45 minutes. on the nose holy cow yep way to go champ. oh uh since I said way to go champ of. course that means it's time for listener. mail uh this is just a nice thank you uh.

Hey guys heartfelt thank you started. listening in 2012 been my time although. my time spent listening to podcasts has. fluctuated yours has been one of the. constants started listening to keep my. mind occupied when I had hours of. mundane tasks in the lab where I worked. after college and I've continued to. listen through a career change. relationship changes getting my first. dog Luna he sent a picture of Luna sweet. and becoming a homeowner I'm listening. still as I'm planning a second career. change been going through a little. lonelier stretch of my life and your. podcast has kept me laughing and feeling.

connected uh to the world through. challenging times and I sometimes feel. like there isn't the right combination. of words to express my gratitude. completely I feel like they just put. those words together I feel like you're. right uh some of my favorite moments in. recent shows have been Chuck's throwaway. line about a fairy hoax confession. happening at a Men Without Hats concert. got Josh chuckle not once twice but. three times and in the 15th uh annual s. ysk Halloween spectacular the Curious. sound like laughter yet not laughter.

that Josh made which sounded like it had. Chuck literally crying with laughter. which is absolutely true that may be the. most I've ever laughed at something that. you did I think it is man uh I hope that. you know for some of your listeners your. podcast has been as meaningful to us as. The Simpsons or peanuts may have been to. you wow. wow wow who was that Stanley knows how. to drive it home he signs it all the. best Stanley a hay seed right oh nice.

thanks Stanley you're a true listener. through and through aren't you I love. that humble like I can't figure out how. to put the words together but here they. are yeah in perfect order exactly well. if you want to be like Stanley and make. me say wow not once not twice but Thrice. then uh you can try your hand at it send. us an email to stuff podcast at. iheartradio.com. [Music]. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts iHeart.

Radio visit the iHeart Radio app Apple. podcasts or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].