SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: Why was Titicut Follies banned? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everybody and welcome to the summer. movie playlist. Chuck here introducing. today's show uh which is I I think maybe. the last one in the series um on Ted Cut. Folly. So this is not I guess we're. ending on sort of a down note because. this isn't some fun uh talk about a fun. movie. Uh it's some pretty serious talk. about a pretty sad documentary. But it's. a remarkable film in its own way and uh. has its place in film history. So, uh, we thought it was a pretty good episode.

Uh, we hope you enjoy it all over again. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and this is Stuff. You Should Know. Just us. Today, Jerry's. on vacation and that's cool. Yeah, I. think Jerry's in uh Disney World. Kind. of went right after me. She's in in the.

D. I said, "Hey, Jerry, in the south. bathroom of Frontier Land." Mhm. Above. the toilet, I've left I've taped a gun. Go shoot Mo. Green. Oh my gosh. Go shoot Mo Green in. the restaurant booth. Wow. No, Mo Green. got it in the on the massage table. Oh, that's right. Oh, the uh police. commissioner or the police chief. He. can't believe I messed that up. He was. tangential to the hit with the bathroom.

I don't remember who he was trying to. hit. That's right. I goofed that up. Hey, shout out to uh Wait, no, I'm not. done sorting this out. Okay, go ahead. Name all the hits in The Godfather. Go. ahead. Uh shout out to our pal and. friend of the show, Kevin Pollock. Uh. because that made me think of the great. great show that I is one of my favorite. shows called Better Things. uh from the. wonderful talented Pamela Adlon, they. are entering their final season and I.

watched the first episode the other. night and Pollock who plays her brother. on the show had a great line that I knew. was improvd where he he was getting in. his car and I can't remember what they. were talking about. He said, "Right in. the eye like Mo Green." And I texted him. immediately and I was like, "Right in. the eye like Mo Green." I was like, "That was yours?" And he went, "Oh. yeah." He said, "That was improv." Nice. It was very fun. It's always fun to be. able to watch a TV show and text your. pal that's on that TV show, right? Yeah. He's got he's got the best parts. He.

just pops up in all the best stuff, you. know? Yeah. He's in Masel. He's uh I I. think and I've talked to Pollock about. this and he's like, "Yeah, I agree. I. think he could star in a really great. indie film. I just think he's a really great actor.". And uh he's great at comedy, but I think. he's on top of that just a really really. great actor. Didn't he star in that. Project Greenlight film? I don't know. Did he? Which one? I'm. pretty I'm pretty sure. I think the. first season. Oh boy. I don't remember.

those movies. I know that uh Shy Labou, that was where he got his start. Is that. right? Was he in one of those? The. Battle of Shaker Heights or something? I. think that might have been the one that. Pollock was in. Was he in that? I didn't. remember that movie. But I mean, a. really good movie. And I'm not sure the. Project Greenlight movies were great. It was a cool show though. I dug it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm surprised they hadn't. brought that back in the iPhone film. making age. Yeah, it's a little. surprising. Who would be who would bring. it back though now? Ben and Mac could bring him back. I. mean, they that's who did it the first.

time, right? Sure. But I mean, are they. still relevant? Aren't there two like. younger versions of the new better? Uh, I don't know who the new Ben and Matt. are. How about um Whiz Khalifa. and Charlemagne the God? Sure. There you. go. All right. Great. Anyway, Kevin. Balk's a great actor and a good dude. Yeah, agreed. And um probably somebody I. would guess who's seen the movie that. we're going to talk about today. I would. be really surprised if he hasn't seen it.

just because I feel like if you are into. movies, if you're a movie maker, if you. are if you consider yourself a cinema. file, if you want to get punched in the. stomach, um you've probably seen titty. cut follies, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is one that I saw in film class in. college. Um, it is one that you there's. about a 50/50 chance that you will see. this if you've seen it in film class in. a college. Mhm. Uh people like Casey, our colleague Casey Pgram, no doubt, is a Frederick Weisman fan.

I'm surely if I texted him, he'd be. like, "Oh, sure. Weissman." Yes. Yeah. Although I found Titikut Folly's was not. one of his greater works. Yeah, that. sounds like Casey. God bless Casey. Uh. all-time greatest movie crush guest. But. um yeah, Fred Fred Weissman uh made this. film. He was a law professor in his 30s. and the 60s and made this documentary. film about a um a mental institution, specifically one uh for the criminally.

insane is what they called it. Yeah. And. uh it was a very, you know, it was a. movie that gained a lot of reputation as. like the most disturbing film you've. ever seen and it's been banned in this. many places and and that kind of thing. But when you kind of peel it back, it's. just a very straight up sort of cinema. verite documentary about a institution. that needed to get their act together, right? And that was kind of Wiseman's. whole jam. Like he's made 48 films. I. think he just turned 92 a couple months.

ago. Amazing. And starting in 1966, he. he's he made about a film a year. Yeah. And he has his own style, like he says, cinema verite, which I feel like we. should probably kind of just go ahead. and and explain, don't you? Sure. Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead, film guy. Uh, well, cinema verete, I mean, what's. the direct translation? Direct cinema. Yeah, direct cinema. And it's the idea. that you kind of set a camera up and let. it let life happen in front of it for.

whatever your subject is. You don't you. don't do interviews. You don't do. talking head shots. You don't um you you. it's really just uh one good example is. that documentary in the of course now I. can't think of it. Um in the 70s about. the American family that ran on PBS that. was so groundbreaking where they just. set up a camera and followed this. family. And if you're thinking it sounds. a lot like reality TV, I think in its purest form, reality TV.

can be this, but it really turned into. something else entirely. Oh yeah. It's. just so deeply manipulated by producers. behind the scenes who tell them to do. this or that or whatever. Yeah. Um. cinema veretes would would not would not. want to do that. They they just shoot. and hope hope also that people act like. themselves. That's another thing. And. yeah, one thing Frederick Weisman, the. guy who made Teddy Cut Follys, um, said. like he believed that people basically. acted like themselves when the camera.

was around because people are in general. lousy actors. Yeah, we can attest to. that. They're behaving like you would. expect them to behave. So, they're. probably acting like they would without. the camera, especially in a cinema. verite kind of setup because it's it's. intrusive. There's a camera there, but. it's not nearly as intrusive as like a. camera on like some rig that's flying. around. Like there's lighting people and. gaffers and a craft services table. that's calling your name. Um, but it's. it's just much less intrusive than that.

It's minimally intrusive as far as film. making goes and that's the point of it. because they want to document reality. without leading the the viewer as much. as possible from what I understand. Yeah, that's exactly it. And I love. cinema verite documentaries especially. Um, and I also like sort of quasi cinema. verite where there's a lot of like I. don't mind interviews being put in. there. Um, as long as there's a lot of. just sort of watching life happen. It's.

really amazingly engrossing. There were. these two filmmakers that I think. inspired uh Weissman. um Richard Leok and Robert Drew who uh. in the early I think in the ' 50s and. early 1960s were kind of dabbling in. cinema verite documentaries and they. made one in particular called Mooney. versus Fowl which is about a high school. football championship and Mooney and. Fowl are the two coaches and I watched. the trailer for that today. I guess his.

I'm guessing it's his daughter that put. this up on uh Vimeo along with some. other like interviews with her dad uh. Drew's daughter. Uh that it's really. engrossing just to watch and especially. because all you see. if you're a modern person in 2022 and. you're like what was life like in the. 1950s? You don't get that from I Love Lucy and. Dick Van Djk. Like those are great. shows. But to be able to just sit in and. take a peek at these high school. football coaches and these people, the.

community in the stands and these. players, like it's just so engrossing to. me. Not everyone's cup of tea, but I. really like it. Yeah. No, totally. But. um. yeah, I feel like even even if it isn't. your cup of tea, you would, like you. said, be engrossed by it. I don't think. there's any way to just be like. I don't know. Some people probably find. it dull. I'm sure there are, but for. it's it's just it is engrossing. I don't. think there's any other way to. universally describe it. Yeah. And Drew, I sent you that one uh little interview.

snippet. I don't know if you saw it, but. he sort of was talking about being a new. form of journalism. Yeah. Where he. talked about, you know, it's like a, you. know, they were like, "Well, what is. this though?" And he was like, "Well, it's like a play without a playwright or. a movie without actors or journalism. without opinions.". And I was like, "Oh, well that's. interesting to say in the 1950s." Yeah. All the way back then. Yeah. But it's um. he they saw it as uh Leelock and I think. Drew saw it more as a form of. journalism. And I feel like that's what.

documentaries used to be and that's. changed a lot sometimes for the better. It can be all things, I guess, but it. seems like documentaries used to be way. more journalism and less uh big time. entertainment. Yeah. What do you think about how do you. feel about um recreations in. documentaries? I think it can be cool if you have a a. good uh like a new spin on it. Kind of. like when uh The Kid stays in the. picture came out uh the documentary. about uh the producer, what's his face?

Robert Evans. Yeah, Robert. The. Godfather back then. Yeah, exactly. Full. circle. They did those recreations. through animation and this really cool. style of animation that like was really. engaging and awesome and like recre can. be really cool if you do it right, I. think. Yeah. or really bad if it's like. some dumb uh cop show on TV. Oh yeah, like um But those are kind of. fun, too. Yeah. You mean like the one. Oh, headline news shows 100 episodes a. day. Forensic files. I haven't seen it, but if it's the recre I'm thinking of.

where it's like, you know, they recreate. a murder on like Yeah. $500 to shoot. this. Yes, that's exactly right. It's. You're thinking of forensic files, but. still, if you watch enough of it, it'll. really like turn your whole life will. turn dark. Yeah. Got to be careful with. forensic files, everybody. So, should we. go back and talk about uh Bridgewwater. State Hospital? Yeah, because this is. the place where Frederick Wiseman showed. up with his camera um with permission as. we'll see. Um and by the time he got. there in 19 I think he shot in 1965,

maybe 1966. Yeah. 66. Okay. When he got. there, uh it had been around for over a. hundred years. It didn't start out as a. state hospital. It started out as a a a. poor house, an alms house, uh I think. all the way back in 1854. Yeah. And it's interesting when you read. these, it's disturbing, but when you. read these oldtimey classifications. in medicine or especially in mental. health where someone be, you know, the. description of someone that might be uh.

put there might just be bad. Like that's one of the descriptions, right? Like that'd be that'd be on par. with um like labeling them alcoholic or. uh schizophrenia or something like that. Yeah. But you know if you were if you. had an alcohol problem or you had. legitimate you know mental health issues. or if you were pregnant maybe or blind. or you had syphilis you might have been. put in this poor house in 1854. Right.

So um in Massachusetts by the way. Yeah. I don't know if we said that or not. Yeah. Um, so that's how it started out. and then over time they started adding. criminals uh and focused more on. criminals and the mentally ill. And then. by the time 1895 rolled around it became. the state asylum for insane criminals. uh at the state workhouse at. Bridgewater. And then eventually um it. became known as Bridgewwater State.

Hospital I think by 1909. And then very. crucially here um it was handed over. from the state board of charity because. remember it started out as a poor house. Mhm. Over to the Massachusetts Bureau of. Prison. So for all intents and purposes. at least bure bureaucratically speaking. Yeah. It is a is a place where the. criminally insane how they were termed. in the 20th century is are held. Yeah. And there were some bad criminals in. there. I mean there were murderers.

There were people who uh were convicted. of cannibalism. uh of rape of uh children of just. generally of rape. So there were some. bad dudes in there for sure. Uh but then. there were also and this was sort of one. of the saddest things about sort of that. time in this country. Those people were. right alongside other people who either. committed a very minor crime or maybe. didn't commit a crime at all and they. were just quote unquote being held there.

temporarily, but that could stretch on. into years. Yeah. There's still. something today called civil commitment. and it's basically that you were being. held not because of a crime or because. of a minor crime and you maybe you've. even served your sentence, but you're. being held because you had been deemed. mentally unfit to return to society even. though maybe you didn't even start out. like in a mental hospital. Maybe you. started out in jail and then you're just. a troublemaker. They considered you a.

troublemaker in jail and you got sent to. the hospital. At that point, your. sentence was just it just went away. It. was you were there until a doctor. decided you should be let out. And the. problem was getting the attention of a. doctor long enough to say, "Oh, actually. you're you're fine. We can let you out. was really difficult to do." And so it. was a really desperate place especially. for people who didn't feel like they. should be there or belong there because. after a while it seemed to exert its. influence on your mind and your outlook.

and it would it would bend you to to. reflect it so that you kind of needed to. be there after a while even if you. didn't start out that way. Yeah. I mean, anyone who's ever seen one floor with a. cuckoo's nest is kind of exactly that. happens in the plot. Like, people got. worse at these places, right? Uh, and. you mentioned the the medical actual. medical attention, uh, president of the. Massachusetts Bar Association at the. time, Paul Tambberelloo, and, uh, big.

thanks to Livia for digging this up and. putting this together for us. But yeah, uh he told the Harvard Crimson back then. that of the 650 men held at the hospital. at the time, actual medical staff were. able to see less than half of them one. time a year for about 20 minutes, right? So other than that, you're like, well. then who was it if it wasn't medical. staff? It was like prison guards, right? Basically. Yes. And even then when you. did get that 20 minutes, you were. confronted by a person or group of.

people who were going on the premise. that everything you said came out of. your mouth were was loony, right? And. not based in reality or fact. No matter. how well you put your case or stated. your case or complain like any show of. emotion would just prove to them that. you were meant to be in there for. another year until they could hopefully. see you again and re-evaluate you. Yeah. Yeah, there was this one example Olivia. found of uh jeez, it's hard to believe. Uh Mateo uh Kakochi was arrested in 1927.

at my daughter's age, almost 7 years. old. Mhm. Uh for stealing seven bucks. from a grocery store, which is pretty. good take. 1927, by the way. uh and he was found incompetent to stand. trial and then sent to uh kind of sent. all around over the years to different. institutions after he tried to escape in. 1935 was eventually uh landed at. Bridgewater and this was another one of. those archaic terms was charged with bad. habits uh and resisting authority and uh.

this 7-year-old eventually ended up here. later in life but stayed there for 28. years man uh and released in 1963. So. that's just just one example of how like. sort of a small petty crime, but if you. maybe have an attitude or you're a. troublemaker as a kid and you bounce. around from place to place, you just. might wind up here with no one. advocating for you. Uh it kind of this. all made me think of like what families. were doing. But I guess at the time some families.

were kind of like maybe convince. themselves they were better off there or. they didn't want to deal with the. trouble. Mhm. Or there were no family. I. don't know. Yeah. or their family was. poor and had no influence over anybody, so they couldn't do anything about it. Very sad. Should we take a break? Yeah, I say we take a break and and we'll come. back with Wiseman and his tenure while. he was at Bridgewwater. [Music].

So, Frederick Wisman had an interesting. origin story as a filmmaker. He was um. he he went to law school at Yale. supposedly to get out of um the Korean. War draft. Mhm. But then when he.

graduated, he still ended up getting. drafted anyway. And he was in there for. almost two years. Kind of after the war, but Yeah. Yeah. Um I still I'll bet he. was not happy about being drafted either. way. Sure. Um so he uh he went he I. guess went to Korea for a couple of. years and then after the army he and his. wife um uh what is her name? Zapora. Batshaw. Great name. Yeah. She she was a. law professor as well. Um they went to. Paris, lived for a couple of years and.

then decided they needed to move back. So they moved back to like the Boston. area. But while there um Frederick. Weisman got into film making, he he. started just shooting stuff with a. little 8 millimeter camera at about the. time that cinema verete was being. developed in France. That's right. So. like you said, he came back from France. uh started teaching law at BEu and uh. sort of had that filmmaking bug still. So he bought the rights to a book, a.

novel called The Cool World, uh about. poverty in Harlem. and he hired a woman. named Shirley Clark uh Clark, sorry, to. direct it. And it was a very small I. don't think it was much of a a big film. at all, but it was a very small sort of. indie film uh at the time, which is to. say it was probably not seen much. Um. but Wiseman was like, "Hey, like if if. Shirley Clark can do this thing, I can. do this thing." Mhm. And I don't like. law school. I don't like teaching law. Uh and one of the things he did because.

he didn't love teaching law was take his. class on a lot of field trips I guess. just to mix things up and they used to. go to Bridgewater and after a few visits. he was like wait a minute I think. everything kind of came together my love. his love of film making his uh cinema. verite kind of becoming popular and his. interest in that and then his interest. disinterest in law and interest in. Bridgewater so he had this idea to make. this film there. Yeah. So, as we'll see. later, this is kind of crucial. He he. got permission to show up. He said many.

times in later interviews, Bridgewwater. is not the kind of place you just kind. of parachute in at night, do all your. filming, and then creep away at dawn. with all of your footage. Um, like he. had to get extensive permission from. Sounds like he's done that before, though, which is kind of cool. Yeah. From We've done that before, too, in. grocery stores, remember? Oh, that's. right. Um, so, uh, he got permission. from the lieutenant governor. He got. permission from the department of. corrections head. He got permission of. the superintendent of Bridgewater. They.

all knew he was there and they would. have figured out eventually anyway. because he spent 29 days filming in. Bridgewater and he would just do his his. his cinema verite style where he would. just walk around and just film stuff. Film whatever he could just film film. film. And I saw something where he said. that for his for his documentaries, he. films anything from like 75 hours at a. minimum, Chuck. Oh wow. Up to 250 hours. And then he goes through it all and. edits all the stuff he likes. And then.

after like month eight of editing, he'll. start piecing it together into like a a. arc, a story arc. Wow. Which boiled down. in this case to 83 minutes of uh of a. movie. Yeah. And the name uh Titikut. volleys comes from uh I think Titikut. was a Native American name I would guess. somewhere in the region. I didn't really. I think for the Bridgewater area that's. what they called it. Okay. uh in the. follies where the you know the film. opens up with a musical performance by. the um I guess they were inmates uh with.

the song strike up the band where all. they're all dressed the same and you can. see you can see quite a few clips on. YouTube but um as Livia points out like. Wiseman has always been really guarded. with how his films are uh exhibited and. so I don't think you can just like go. YouTube this thing up and watch the. whole thing still even I did last I. think. Oh, on YouTube. Yeah. Okay. On. YouTube. No, it was on Vimeo. Oh, interesting. All right. I wonder if.

that's like some sort of pirated upload. It was It's It's a It was a VHS copy put. online, so I'm thinking Yeah, it was. pirated. Did you watch it all? Yeah, I. did. I watched I'd never seen it before. I was familiar with it. The title I had. not a lot of idea of what it was about, but yeah, it was What do you think? Certainly striking. It was really. something like it had ups and downs and. highs and lows and I think I it was. everything Wiseman wanted me to feel. about it. It was pretty great. Yeah, I. mean it is great. It's even at 83.

minutes it's tough to sit through the. whole thing because I think by its. nature cinema verite can be taxing. Yeah, even while engrossing it can be. pretty taxing. That's the best way to. put it. Um but it's also obviously in. this case it's not about a high school. football championship. is literally watching these people. Um, I mean, I guess we should just talk. about some of the scenes, maybe. Yeah. And a lot of the people are going to go. back and be like, Josha, this was great.

Bear with us, everybody. Yeah. I mean, hey, you're a cophile. That's right. Punch me in the face. But no, the. stomach face is way too hostile. Stomach's got a little bit of. friendliness left in it, you know? Yeah, like Houdini style. That'll do. Uh, well, one of the scenes that Livia. picked out that certainly stands out in. my mind, too. And I think you can. actually find parts of this one on. YouTube is a guard uh I guess. Was he. dry shaving them? It looked like dry. shaving or was it a wet shave? Um, no.

They put like um shaving cream on him. and everything. Oh, okay. And everybody. seems to characterize it as like really. rough, like forceful kind of almost like. he's being tortured with the shave. It. was fast. It was fast. Yeah, I didn't it. didn't look like it hurt the patient. So, I it didn't and it didn't seem like. the guy was trying to torture him. It. just seemed like he was being very quick. and efficient. And he does like cut him. at the edge of one of his mouth. One of.

the edges of the corner of his mouth, sorry. Right. Um, so he's bleeding a. little bit, but he he doesn't seem like. he doesn't seem in distress at all while. he's shaving. At the very least, he's. not in distress because of the shaving. Right. But then what happened? Well, there are these two at least two guards, right? And this inmate, by the way, is. named Jim. He's probably the most famous. character in the in the movie. Yeah. Or. patient, I should say. He's not a. character. Um he has uh he's very it's.

easy to get a rise out of Jim. As hard. as Jim tries to not let you get a rise. out of him, if you press his buttons, he's going to like yell. He's going to. get mad. He's going to try to contain. himself. And there were a couple of. guards that were guarding Jim while he. was being like like washed and shaved. and all that stuff. Who just spent the. entire scene trying to get a rise out of. him by saying like, "Why is your room so. dirty, Jim? Are you is your room going. to be clean tomorrow, Jim? You got to. keep your room clean, Jim." Just.

ceaselessly and incessantly. And we see. eventually when they take him back to. his room. It's totally empty. There's a. window. There's nothing in the room. Yeah. And in fact, Jim is kept naked in. his room. So there's no way for Jim for. Jim's room to be dirty and also for no. way for Jim to keep his room clean. These guards, you realize, were just. trying to get a rise out of Jim and they. do. Yeah. Over and over again. And it's. really hard and sad to watch Jim like.

like just get upset. He's trying so hard. to just not let these guys get to him. because he knows what they're doing. He's fully aware of what they're doing. and he just can't help himself. probably. like five different times he re he. reacts and then tries to regain his. composure again. Yeah. It's almost as if. they're trying to drive him mad. Yeah. And they're also doing I saw somebody. describe it as they're they're goating. him with the kind of like bored. desensitization or desensitivity of. somebody who does this like every day.

and know exactly what he's going to do. And there's no fun in it anymore, but. they just kind of do it to amuse. themselves as much as they can from it, which is even worse, you know, because. they're just torturing this poor guy. mentally. Yeah. And we should point out. too that, you know, Weissman showed. scenes like this, but it wasn't um it. wasn't like a a 100% indictment on the. people who work there because he did. also show some parts where there was. some care taken. Um I mean, what was.

your like I haven't seen the whole thing. since college, so what was your net net. on that? Um, so. I think the thing that I got from it was. that Wiseman treats everybody as human. and equal in that he's not expressing. like empathy necessarily. He's not. trying to even get you to to empathize. or sympathize. He's not trying to get. you to form an opinion. He's just. showing you what he found. Right? And if.

he is trying to get you to form an. opinion, it's so obtuse that it's tough. to put your finger on in retrospect. Maybe maybe you respond exactly the way. he wanted you to, but he's not very. rarely does he like hammer you with it. So yeah, I feel like he just treats. everybody the same. Like there's a guy. there's a patient who talks about all of. the children he's raped and he he knows. that it's bad. He knows that it's like. that that like what he's doing is wrong. and he can't help himself. Um, but there.

there's like Wiseman makes no effort to. make this man seem despicable or evil or. anything like that. He might as well be. talking about like a car he's thinking. about buying. Yeah. For for how Wiseman. portrays it. And so like if he's. treating that guy equal, he's definitely. treating like the guards and the. clinical staff and everybody equally. But I think more than that, he just. turns the camera on and lets them behave. as they're going to behave. He lets them. present themselves to you rather than.

him trying to manipulate it so that you. see what Wiseman wants you to see. Yeah. I mean, that's the purest form of cinema. verite, which you know, it's interesting. how conditioned we are to even hearing. an ominous musical score during a scene. where a guy might talk about crimes like. that. Um, and when all that's stripped. away, like it's it can be like more. unsettling, I think, than hearing that. creepy score. Totally. Uh, it reminds. me, and this is certainly not the same.

thing, but, um, we went to a Cleveland. Indians baseball game one time when. Emily's family still lived in Ohio, and. it was this throwback game, uh, where. they didn't do any modern things at all. Uhhuh. And you don't really think about. that. You're like, it was a baseball. game. What do they do? Like all they had. was the organ player and the the. announcer going, you know, now off to. bed. Number five, so and so and so. Awesome, man. Done. They didn't play a. song when they came up that the batter.

picked out. They didn't have the the. Home Depot hammer and nail and shovel. chase each other around the field. between innings in a race. Mhm. They. didn't, you know, there's You don't. realize when you go to a pro sports game. of all the extra Well, especially an NBA. game. Sure. all the extra stuff that's. there until it's gone. And it was. really, really weird. I liked it. Our. family was like, I'm bored. Uh, and I. was like, I think this is kind of cool. Do they have cracker jacks at least? Oh,

yeah. I mean, they sold the stuff and it. wasn't throwback prices, of course, but. um it was uh it's weird when you're so. conditioned though, kind of like with. film, just to. background noise and just sort of the. things that we hear in movies, lighting. or or a camera move or, you know, cinema. verite is all about sort of just locking. that camera down or handholding it. sometimes. uh when all that artifice is. gone, it can have a reverse effect that. all the artifice has like you're using.

it for. Yeah. And I think in addition to. what is added to kind of manipulate you. emotionally or unconsciously, um there's also a lot that's removed a. lot of reality that's removed like like. the background noise. If they put. background noise in it's Foley artists. It's not the actual background noise. that was there when they were filming. Yeah. That's not what Wiseman does. This. film is replete with disturbing. background noise like televisions that. are on that you can't see. Yeah. Other.

people's conversations that you can't. make out what they're saying. The. lighting he uses is only the lighting at. Bridgewwater. He doesn't use any of his. own light. It's all whatever. It's. called available light. And it Yeah. when you when you just kind of watch it, you're like, "This is just like looking. in on real life, which makes what you're. seeing all the more disturbing because. in addition to to almost being there, you almost feel guilty, especially if. you have half a conscience of witnessing. the stuff that you're seeing because.

you're seeing some of these people like. like Jim when he's taken back to his. cell after those guards got a rise out. of him while he was being shaved. He's. naked, fully naked. stomping around. Yeah. Basically throwing a tantrum. trying. You can tell he's trying to calm. himself down. This is how he's like. getting out his his anger. And Wiseman. just sits there and films the whole. thing. Yeah. And you're forced to watch. as the viewer. You're it. I saw somebody. put it. It's basically like you're the.

one standing in the doorway. Even after. the guards have left, you're still. standing there watching this man in one. of the probably one of the several worst. points of his his recent life. Um just. gawking at him basically and it's it's. that's the hard part of it for sure. Yeah. or or you know at the other end of. the spectrum uh there's a scene with a. guy named Vladimir. and this guy is very lucid and he's. speaking very clearly about um you know.

I think my my I've deteriorated since. I've been here I think uh all this noise. that you're hearing all these TVs that. are always turned on full blast it's. sort of driving me crazy and I would. like to go back to prison where I. actually could work out in a gym and I. could take classes and this medication. that they're giving me is making me. worse. Like I feel that it's harming me. And uh when he's, you know, when the. guards take him out of the room, then. there there's a scene of the the.

clinicians like discussing things. And. it's sort of like sounds like we need to. up his medication, right? Uh and his. tranquilizers because he's paranoid. Um. so when you see something like that, it's sort of the other end of the. spectrum from Jim. equally disturbing. But part of the beauty of this fil and. the rawness of this film is like these. people are all in here together. Yeah. It's never lost on you. His is a. particularly sad case. Yeah. Because you. can tell like no, he's he's with it. This guy's he knows what he's saying. He's not trying to manipulate. He's.

pleading his case in a logical way. He's. trying so hard not to get worked up. How. would you not get worked up when you're. when you're pleading your case to be. released from a mental institution from. somebody who's just taking you as as you. know nuts? So why should you be listened. to? There's even um one of the one of. the medical staff at that meeting after. he leaves the room and they're. discussing him um she says uh what' she. say? She's like, if you take his basic.

premise as as true, then everything he. says from that is totally logical. But. of course, his basic premise is total. hogwash or whatever. She says something. like that. I'm paraphrasing just so it's. like that guy never had a chance. He. just wasted his breath. He just like. they were they were never going to. listen to him. And um it's like read in. Shaw Shank. Yeah. Yeah. Well, was he not. supposed to be there? He was supposed to. be there, wasn't he? Well, yeah, but. every time he came up for parole, he.

would plead his case. They would deny. it. Mhm. And then finally in the end, he. was like, you know, it doesn't matter. what I say in here. You're not going to. let me out anyway. That's my Morgan. Freeman by the way. That sound a little. more like Boss Hog on on tranquilizers. What? Yeah, that was Boss Hog sedated. Oh man. Let's hear it again. No, I. can't. Maybe Jerry can edit that. never. do my Morgan Freeman again. Uh, one of the great voices. But, uh,

yeah, he basically says, you know, I'm. institutionalized. You're not you're not. going to let me out no matter what I. say. And of course, that's when they let. him out because it's a dramatic film. and, uh, with a great, wonderful, happy. ending, not like to cut follies. No. Uh, one other thing that I think we should. point out too for people who haven't. seen the movie, like we know Vladimir's. name and Jim's name just because it. comes up like in in discussion like. they're calling him Jim or somebody. addresses Vladimir as Vladimir. There's.

no Chiron at the bottom of the screen. says Vladimir or Jim. There's no no one. explaining how Jim got here or what. Vladimir did. There's no nothing. Nothing is explained. It's just here's a. scene, here's another scene, here's. another scene, here's another scene. Nothing necessarily leads into anything. else. There's one part that see that. Wiseman says he regrets because it was. so he calls it hamfisted. Yeah. Where. there's It's really hard to watch. It is. the the main doctor, the main clinician.

who's a recurring character whose name. we have no idea who it is, at least if. you just watch the movie. Um he. force-feeds a patient who stopped eating. and through with a nasogastric tube. stuffed down his nose all the way into. his stomach. And this guy is just. stoically taking this. Mhm. Like he's. decided he is not going to eat. They. even give him a choice. They're like you. can drink the soup or you're going to. we're going to force feed you. And he's. like you're going to have to force feed. I don't even think he says anything.

Yeah. So there's a there's a force. feeding scene. you watch an emaciated. man who's starving himself force-fed. and um he intercut that part with uh. scenes from the man's preparation for. burial, right? To kind of show like, you. know, he didn't make it. He was. successful in ending his own life. through starvation. Um and then also I. think what Wiseman was trying to get. across was that he was you know he's. really being cared for. who's given like. a decent burial and like I think eight.

that he has eight pawbearers from the. institution and he's like treated very. well compared especially to this this. force feeding through a tube down his. nose. Um and wise men thought that was a. little hamfisted. That is that is the. most cinematic part of the entire movie. Nothing else is anywhere remotely like. that. that it's all just seen seen seen. scene seen and like no explanation of. who these people are or what they are. trying to say. All right. Should we take. a break? Yeah. All right. We'll take our.

second break and be back uh right after. this. [Music]. So before we talk about the sort of.

court cases and the whether or not this. film could be uh banned or exhibited, um. it's interesting you talk about like. it's just seen seen scene seen, but um. on the flip side of that, it is like a. such a carefully curated edit from all. those hundreds of hours of footage down. to 83 minutes and right that's one of. the things that Weissman sort of talked. about was he didn't apparently he didn't. I don't know if he came around but he. didn't even like the term cinema verite.

because he felt it sounded too much like. you were just shooting stuff and putting. it in front of people and he said I am. manipulating people but it's through the. edit um so while you may not think that. I mean I guess he was a master at it cuz. you probably shouldn't feel manipulated, but he's still putting together that. that careful edit, you know. It's. interesting. He is a master at it, and. it's pretty remarkable. This was his. first film and he was that masterful at. it. Yeah. So, um I said earlier that it.

was crucial that he had gotten. permission to film and not only from, you know, the lieutenant governor and. the superintendent of Bridgewater, but. also from everyone he shot. uh he got. either written permission from them or. verbal permission, audiovisisual I guess. on camera them giving him permission to. use them in his film. So he was covered. up in in permission and don't forget he. was a law professor too. Um and when the. movie first came out when he finished he.

showed it to the superintendent of. Bridgewwater and to the um the the. lieutenant governor. They both. apparently liked it according to. Wisemen. But it wasn't until the um the. movie came out into wider release at the. very beginning I think New York Film. Festival or something like that. Yeah. And people started responding by saying. like this is barbaric this treatment at. Bridgewwater. What's wrong with the. state of Massachusetts that they. suddenly turned on the film and Wiseman. had on his hands uh what would come to.

become a banned film. Yeah. So, one of. the central players here is Elliot. Richardson, who was that lieutenant. governor you referenced at the time, had. uh loftier political aspirations. So, when it came time to run for uh an. office higher than that, tried to. suppress this film, thinking it would, you know, uh count against him. And it. became sort of like uh Olivia calls it a. political tool. That's exactly what it. became. Mhm. and and uh Richardson would.

end up accusing Weissman of of double. crossing the state. Uh and it all sort. of hinged on the idea not like oh you. showed these awful things but it hinged. on the idea of permissions and privacy. Yeah. Was sort of the legal framework of. it because the argument was sure you. might have gotten the the permission. from these men but um they are in no. state to give real permission. And so. there were a series of court cases over. the years that sort of debated this like. for many many years. um in ' 68 uh was a.

judge, superior court judge named Harry. Kalas who found that it breached privacy. and uh this was interesting though. because like I get that as a legal basis. for argument but this judge said he he. kind of attacked the film making. process, right, and said it's just a. hodgepodge of sequences with no. narrative and said each viewer is left. to his own devices as to what's being. portrayed and and in what context and in. the meantime Weissman's over there going. ado like that's what cinema verete is.

but um I thought that was like like this. judge just said you should destroy not. should like ordered it to be destroyed. Yeah. He also called it a nightmare of. ghoulish obscenities and said the. negative has to be burnt. Um very judgy. judge. Yeah. And of course wise men was. like well I'm not burning my negative. I'm going to fight this and appeal it. Oh sure. That case, by the way, was the. first one in Massachusetts history where. a court affirmed that a right to privacy. exists. Yeah. It had never been affirmed. in a court case and it was established.

in that case. So, it was a it was it was. not cut and dry though because Wiseman. has free a first amendment right to. freedom of expression. So, it became. freedom of expression versus freedom of. privacy um or right to privacy I should. say. And um it it the I think the ACLU. got involved and they formed a they they. submitted an amicus brief that basically. said we think that this film has value.

but to a very limited number of people. specifically lawyers, judges, law. students, medical students, um. psychiatrists, people in those fields. should be able to see this and that is. about it. And so that kind of became the. ruling shortly after that initial you. need to burn the negatives an appeal. That's what they came up with. Yeah. And. so for a number of years after that for. those reasons um it was shown in like. film class. It was shown in medical.

schools. It was shown um in the library. Yeah. It was shown in libraries. That. was a great place to see something like. this or in uh different institutions. would show this and say this is what not. to do. like you can't do stuff like. this. Yeah. Uh there was I believe and. this is sort of through the 70s and then. in the 80s uh some attorneys got. involved that said there were some. suicides at Bridgewater in the mid to. late 80s. There were some class action.

lawsuits that followed by patients where. the attorneys said they could draw a. direct line basically between a patient. dying by suicide and the fact that this. film wasn't shown like it should be. allowed to be shown for these reasons. Yeah. Like had it been shown there would. have been a public outcry for more. reforms and that wouldn't have led you. know th those reforms might have. prevented those suicides in at. Bridgewater. And so Wiseman said like he. never gave up on the film being re.

released to a wider audience and he he. saw that that was a good time to bring. this up again. And it actually worked. out. Um he he got he got a judge to. basically say like okay this is a yes. you should be able to show this but we. need to blur the faces of the the men. out. And Wiseman said that's impossible. This is film. It's not video. Work with me here man. Right. He said. also it'll artistically ruin my sure my. um my film. Yeah. Which you remember. when we did that one gorilla filming in.

the um supermarket, we ended up having. to go back and blur Yeah. every single. thing in the supermarket out except for. us. It kind of screwed it up a little. bit. I could see where he's coming from. Right. And so he appealed again and. finally they said, "You know what? Not a. single um inmate at Bridgewater and none. of their families has ever filed a. formal objection to this film being. shown. So, how about this? Just show it. It's unbanned officially by the early. '9s, right? That was in ' 91 with Judge.

Andrew Gil Meyer of the Massachusetts. Supreme Judicial Court. And then after. that, it was still cuz Wiseman is, like. I said earlier, very uh picky about how. his films are exhibited. And so, it. wasn't like it was just everywhere. Uh I. think PBS aired it in 93 in full. Uh you. could always buy the DVD from him, from. his website. Mhm. Or if there was a film. festival or a film class, like I said, when I saw it was in college film class. from a VHS tape that the professor.

owned, uh, probably bought it from. Weissman. Um, and that's sort of how it. lived its life. I mean, it's it's. interesting that this like this still is. a relevant topic and a relevant film. and, you know, is being talked about. today like in 2022. Mhm. I think in 2017. he even tried to or I think he. successfully finally got it on his. streaming service uh called Canopy with. a K uh which is also kind of through the. library system which is awesome. Yeah,

you can watch it for free if you uh sign. up for a Canopy account with your. library card number. Yeah. Um you can go. watch I think all of Wiseman's films, all 48. Um which is pretty great. But. there's there seems to have been um some. direct effects of the film on. Bridgewwater, but still from what from. what it sounds like there's still a long. way to go with Bridgewwater, too. Yeah, I think they made a lot of strides and. then they found even as recently as this. year uh that um they were using what.

they call chemical restraints, basically. just doping people up more, right, than. they said they were doing. So, this is. ongoing there. And then Weissman, like. you said, made 48 films and they had. names like hospital or high school. And. it's just sort of that very barebones. cinema verite look at a single topic. that's uh sort of been his uh bread and. butter. I think it's a really cool. thing. Yeah, it is really cool. He's. just fascinated with institutions, although he even says he has no idea how.

they work. And I think he's even said. he's not quite sure he understands his. film himself. Yeah, which is pretty. awesome to say. Yeah. Yeah. And uh. Zapora Films is named after his wife who. passed away a couple years ago at the. age of 90. And he's like you said still. going strong. Yeah. His what's his. latest one? Um City Hall. Yeah. About. Boston City Hall. Yeah. It came out in. 2020. Pretty cool. Well, uh if you want to. know more about Titty Cut Follys, you. should probably go watch it. But be.

warned, it is really rough. Even though. it is great in the term of a cinemaile. would use it. How about that? a. cinnaphile. I always add an extra. syllable. So that of course means it's. time for listener mail. Uh I'm gonna call this followup on the. uh effect of altruism. One of our. favorite things is when we talk about a. topic and someone from that topic gets. in touch and is a listener. Yeah, for. real. Uh and that's what happened in. this case with Grace Adams. Uh hey guys,

we are so excited that you covered. effective altruism and you did so. wonderfully. uh and graces with giving. what we can. Uh giving what we can would. love to give your listeners a free book. on effective altruism if you if you. include this link in the show notes uh. which we don't have but we'll just say. it here. Uh people can opt to have a. free book sent to them uh including the. precipice by Toby or anywhere in the. world. We love sending out books and. think it's a great way for people to. engage more with the ideas. Wishing you. all the best from a big personal fan.

Grace Adams and oh I should have made. this into a bit.ly Should I do that real. quick? Yeah. All right. So, you just. talk to people while I do that. Oh, okay. Well, hey everybody. Actually, I. mean, we could edit this together, but. Toby or uh wrote in and said the same. thing, too. But he also sent us well. wishes and said we did a we did a good. job on the effective altruism episode, which I thought was pretty good cuz I. like to think we're fairly fair-handed. with it. We weren't too overthe-top. subjective. Don't you think? I think so.

Although, we did get one email from. someone. And it's like kind of acted. like we didn't point out any of the the. downsides which I disagree with. I. disagree with that. But anyway, how's. that bitly coming Chuck? Okay, my. friend, I am done. I have the bit.ly. Uh. if you go to bitbit.yk, you can get your free book. Yes, pretty. great free books on effective altruism. and free books by Toby or on existential.

risks which I mean come on. Uh if you. want to get in touch with us like Grace. from Give Well did, uh we would love to. hear from you, you can send us an email. whether you want to give away free books. or not. It's okay. You don't have to. Uh. send it off to stuffodcast.com. [Music]. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.

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