SYSK’s Summer Movie Playlist: The True Story of BlacKkKlansman | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hey everybody and welcome to the summer. movie playlist. Uh the place where we. group some fun movie content because. it's summer movie season. We thought you. might uh like this. So we gave it a. shot. And today you're going to be. listening to uh the replay of our. episode on Black Clansmen. Uh the true. story behind that movie. It's a great. movie. Love it. Love Spike Lee. Uh and. this is a great one. So uh I hope you. enjoy the show. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know from.

how stuffuffs.com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark. There's Charles Bryant. There's Jerry over there. You put the. three of us together, it's Movie Crush. I mean, stuff you should know. This does. have some stank on it, doesn't it? Some. movie stank. Uhhuh. I I know your game. It's cool. Uh, I didn't even ask you, have you seen Black Clansmen? I I was.

like, I can't I can't do this episode. without having seen it, so I watched it. last night. Oh, nice. Yeah, it's good, huh? Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, I I. like uh I like his choice at the end to. like just completely pull a somersault. on the viewer. Oh, sure. With that last. bit. Yeah, like spoiler alert, there's. an end to the movie. Spoilery. Yeah, for. sure. We should probably say that out of. the gate. If you haven't seen this yet. and you don't want it to be spoiled, don't listen to this episode first. Yes. But um yeah, the I guess now that we've.

said that, we can speak freely, right? Yes. So, um the if if the entire movie. was basically. to disarm you up to the end, then I I. think it's one of the greatest movies. I've ever seen in my life. And even if. it wasn't, that wasn't the entire point. of the movie. It was still It was still. great. and how he pulled it out at the. end, I think. Yeah. Well, this was I. don't know if you remember, but this is. the movie I saw in Perth, Australia. So, that happens at the end. That big uh.

you know Mhm. sort of gut punch. Yeah. Of realism at the end. And uh I stood up. and I was like, h like wonder what they. they're thinking here in Perth, right? They're probably thinking, what just. happened? What's wrong with America? Yeah. And I'm going, hi mate. Uh good to. see you. I'm not American. I'm Canadian. Can't. you tail bloke? Oh goodness. Uh yeah, it was it was one.

of those things where I was like I'm. kind of slightly embarrassed right now. Yeah, like that. I enjoyed the movie. though. I thought to see Spike Lee, who. um just he's one of my favorite. filmmakers in his 60s still just. bringing the juice like this, I loved. it. Yeah. I also loved that it was. controversial, too. um in that like some. people criticize Spikeley for like not. going far enough for maybe kind of um. glossing over some of the ugly aspects. of the the story. Yeah. You want to get.

to that at the end maybe? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But we'll we'll give it a pre-. mention shout out which is what we just. did. Right. So, we are talking about the. uh the true story of the film Black. Clansmen. Uh Spikeley's movie that won. the grand prize at the Khan Film. Festival. It's nominated for Academy. Awards. Uh yeah, three Oscars I believe for. including best picture. Yeah, I think. picture director and supporting actor uh.

for who? I would guess Adam Driver. I. didn't see really. Yeah, I was surprised. because Denzel's son did a wonderful job. as well. He loves he loves that being. known as that, right? I can't remember. his first name, but you know, Denzel's. son. He uh he was um like there were. several times when he was talking and I. was like, "Oh, you are definitely Denzel. Washington's son, man." Just the the way. he talked, the the um the sound of his. voice, but also his acting, too. He's a. good actor. Yeah. So, all right. Best.

picture, best supporting actor for Adam. Driver. uh best director and best. original music score. Oh, nice. Uh but. yeah, he is uh I didn't know he was. Denzel's son till after the movie. Yeah, I could see that. And he was a football. player. Did you know that? I didn't. Who'd he play for? He played for. Morehouse here in Atlanta. He was a. running back and then played NFL on the. practice squad for the Rams. And then. eventually played a few years in NFL.

Europe and the UFFL until he hung up his. cleats. six years ago. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Playing football in Europe has got. to be a surreal experience, you know. Yeah, because it's a soccer. ball. Everyone's like, "What are you. doing? This is all wrong.". All right. So, should we back it to the. 1970s? The groovy 70s of Denver, Colorado. First, first we should say his. name is John David Washington. Oh, sure. You were kidding, right? Denzel's son. Yes. So yeah, let's get in the way back. machine and see uh go inspect their.

terrible lowquality pot. So uh Ron Stalworth is is the true to. life character's name who there was a. football player growing when we were. growing up named John Stalworth. So I'm. always wanting to say John Stalworth. This is not him. This is a cop named Ron. Stalworth. That's right. and he had a a. few designations that are pretty. important. He was the first. African-American police officer uh to.

work for the Colorado Springs Police. Department uh which he joined as a cadet. at the age of 19. Yeah. In 72 and then a. couple of years later on his 21st uh. birthday on his 21st birthday. That's. what I saw. Yeah. June 18th, I believe. Nice. Was sworn in as a full-on officer. of the law. Right. And I'm not sure if. like they just swear you in on your 21st. birthday or if it just so happened that. the swearing in ceremony was on his 21st. birthday, but regardless, it was a big.

deal. He's the first African-American. cop and then later on detective for. Colorado Springs. So that's that's a big. deal, especially starting out at age 21, too. That takes a lot of coahones, as. they call it in Colorado. No, I think. they call those Rocky Mountain oysters. That's right. That is what they call. them for sure. So he uh worked. undercover for about 30 years. Um long. great career as an undercover detective. Um but it was this case which um only. came out about four years ago when he.

wrote a book about it about his career. um when he went undercover as a well as. a clansman. But it's a little more. complicated than that. It is a it was a very complicated. operation. Right. Yeah. And and this. wasn't something that like um I mean he. even says in this NPR interview that he. didn't it was just a job at that. particular point in time and when that. particular job ended that is the. undercover stint which was about what.

eight or nine months I moved on to. something else and it just happened by. circumstance. So he didn't come in there. uh with a bone to pick with the clan. aside from probably every bone to pick. that he had with the clan right just as. a black man in America. Yeah. And it. would probably help to give a little. background on the clan at the time. because, you know, the clan was very. well known for being really big and. really violent at over three waves is. basically how the clan history is.

divided. Yeah. Like the first wave was. when they were um they were founded in. the wake of the the civil war. Um then. they they had a the second wave came. around the 19s like 1950 15 I mean um. that that era and then they they had. another big resurgence during the civil. rights era in the 50s and 60s. But you. know in between these waves and after. that third wave it's not like the clan. just went away. They just they kept on.

going. their profile was lower and maybe. their um the uh the public violence or. terrorism that they were engaging in. wasn't quite as pronounced, but they. were still there. And in Colorado in. particular, it had a really long history. with the clan where basically the city. of Denver was in the under the control. of the clan back in the 20s, just, you. know, 50 years before um Ron Stalworth. started working there. Yeah. He was uh. he got when he when he got hired there,

he got access to files, like secret FBI. files, right? And he got to go in and. dig in and look at the history of the. clan in Colorado. And boy, like you. ain't kidding. They were uh in the House. of Representatives. There were senators. Both senators were clans members. Uh the. mayor uh Benjamin Stapleton, who the. airport was named after until 95. Yeah. his great-grandson ran for governor um. on the GOP ticket this past election and.

and lost to uh who is Colorado's first. ever openly gay Jewish governor. Oh wow. Mhm. Colorado is a weird state. It is an. odd state for sure. A lot of different. ideologies all packed in together. It's. very purple in all sorts of ways. Yeah. So, uh Mayor Benjamin Stapleton was a. clan member. Uh the governor, Clarence. Mley, was a clan member. Um the chief of. police, which is I mean, you don't want.

anyone in these positions to be clan. members, but I imagine a chief of police. is one of the more problematic areas to. have a person in that kind of control. Particularly that one, too. He was basic. he was picked by the clan, the the. Colorado clan um and basically foisted. on Benjamin Stapleton who who who was. even like wow this guy's even too much. for my tastes and um eventually fired. him but like the clan picked the chief. of police of Denver, Colorado back in.

the 20s. Oh yeah. And they tried to. recall Stapleton at one point. Mhm. Uh. it didn't work and when that effort. failed uh the clan burned across on the. top of Table Mountain as a celebration. uh a show of public celebration. Right. So the the clan has deep roots in a old. story in Colorado or at least they used. to and they were still very much around. when um uh when Ron Stalworth started. his his investigation or started as the. um the the first black uh detective in.

Colorado Springs. Right. That's right. And so he started out, I guess, as kind. of plain clothes and was assigned um. undercover work pretty quickly just just. by his um just by being the only. African-American. uh officer in the police force because. Stokeley Carmichael came to town once. That's right. And this is in the film. We're going to talk about a few. differences between the movie and and. the real story, but uh he did in fact go.

to a uh a speech and a rally by famous. Black Panther Stokeley Carmichael. And. he was, you know, fully kitted out in. his bell bottoms and uh his wearing a. wire. He picked his afro out. And he in. fact did make a point to meet him just. like he did in the film. And Carmichael. did apparently say, "Arm yourself and. get ready because the revolution is. coming." And I imagine Stalworth had.

some mixed feelings about that. assignment. Yeah, I would guess so. Um, it's kind of like I don't really have. any idea of what he he personally was. like because the movie mixed things up. so much and like added layers that. weren't necessarily there. So, I have no. idea what what that experience would. have been like for him, you know. Yeah. One thing we do know is not true is the. character in the film of Patrice, uh, whom he meets at that rally, a young. woman that he falls in love with, uh, she was made up for the movie, uh,

Spikeley wanted a a love interest. basically and to represent sort of the. the female black power movement as a. whole, right? So, she was completely. made up, but she was terrific in the. film. Yeah. Yeah. Laura Harrier, she's. in the the new Spider-Man movies, too. She's awesome. Cool. the new. Spider-Verse movie. No, no, no. That's. animated. Oh, okay. Well, she could have. been a voice actor, I guess, right? Yeah. No, she's in the one the new ones. with the the new the new kid. Okay. The.

new Spidey kid. The current Spider-Man. Current Spider-Man, which is great. Those are good movies. I haven't seen. any of them. You're not super into that. stuff, though, are you? Well, I saw the. uh Infinity War one. He was in that, I. think. Yeah. He's a bit of a smart Alec, frankly. He is. Um, so okay, he he does his research on. the deep roots of the clan in Colorado. He goes undercover and then. I don't think he was even assigned this. thing. I think he kind of came up with.

it on his own by chance almost uh in. October 1978. He was 25 at this point. and he was looking through the local. paper. Well, that was part of his. assignment to gather intelligence by. reading the paper. Well, right. But I. don't think I think this was his idea to. go undercover like this. That's the. impression I have too. He seemed like a. a self-starter. uh in a lot of ways. So he found this ad. um a classified ad in the paper for the. clan uh said get in touch if you want.

further information. Uh he sent a letter. posing as a white racist uh to a PO box. just thinking that he would just get. back some pamphlets or something. Right. So, he signed his real name, which is uh. he didn't really think that one through. No, he didn't. And he did he never. really fully explains it aside from the. the the best explanation I saw is that. he didn't think anything was going to. come of it. He thought he'd get, like. you said, a couple of pamphlets and that. would be that. Um, and he just wasn't.

planning to to create like a large. investigation out of making contact. through this this ad. And and again, we. should probably state this. It was an ad. in the paper for the clan to get in. touch with the clan to get more info. about the clan and maybe you might want. to join. Who knows, right? Um so, so he. he makes contact with them by sending. off a letter. And if you ask me, if if. if Spike Lee were directing this. episode, he would put an ad break right.

here. That was good. Who are we to disagree? All right, we'll be right back. [Music].

Okay, so like we said, Ron Stalworth is. thumbing through the newspaper. He mails. off a uh a letter to get more info about. the clan and um he uses his real name. and and like like you said, Chuck, he. was expecting like a pamphlet or. something in return like, "So, you want. to be a clan member?" or something like. that, right? Um instead, about two weeks. later, he got a call from the the. number. So, he used everything as far as. the undercover operation would go. Um he.

used all of his undercover info except. for his name. So he got a call on his. undercover phone line from a guy named. Ken Odell and he was pretty surprised to. get this call because again he was. expecting a pamphlet and instead he had. a real live living breathing Ku Klux. Clansman on the other end of the line. saying hey uh I got your letter about. hating black people and other. minorities. Let's talk. Yeah. He was. like why are you interested? And.

Stalworth immediately just kind of goes. into character. Uh, and I guess that's. what you, you know, when you're. undercover, you you got to be part. improv actor, right, to be able to pull. that off. Well, he also, he said he drew. from his own personal experiences. because he grew up in El Paso and and. encountered a lot of racism there and. I'm sure on the force in Colorado. Springs, too. So, he drew from his own. experience as well. Yeah. So he uh. basically right out of the gate says,

"Well, you know, uh my sister's dating a. black man and every time he puts his. hands on her on her pure white body, I. cringe and I want to do something about. it." And Ken Odell says, "You sound like. a great guy. Why don't you come on down. and let's meet because you are just the. kind of uh kind of dude we're looking. for. You sound like real clan material.". Yeah. I thought about maybe doing an. episode on the clan. I thought about. that, too. And then I'm like, do you. want to give them a platform? Yeah. But.

then I thought, or, you know, you could. just talk about it and how stupid they. are. All right. Like it when I was a. kid. I mean, of course, being in. Georgia, that stuff was around. I never. like saw it firsthand, obviously. Yeah. But you heard things even like growing. up in the 70s in Georgia and I was. always so scared of the whole thing. because of the outfits and everything. and the fire, right? Uh and I was a good. little Baptist boy. So there was a lot. of fear, but then I got a little older. and I was like, they're just dumb. rednecks wearing sheets, right? Sort of.

demystified it. This is the moment you. become an adult. Yeah. But I mean, of. course, then I would later learn that. they did real horrific things and took. lives and, you know, are a terrorist. organization, right? Right. But I think. what you're saying is they they made. themselves up to be boogeymen. Yeah. Exactly. And they definitely can be that. way, especially in the a young mind or. something like that. But Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so back to the story, Ron Stalworth.

is on the phone with this guy named Ken. Odell who wants to meet him to see if. he'd like to join the clan. And this is. a big problem because I think as we. mentioned a couple of times, Ron. Stalworth was African-American. Yeah. He's like, "Oh boy, what do I do here?". Right. So, he actually uh recruited a. fellow detective who he in his book. calls Chuck. That's all he's ever. publicly referred to the guy as is. Chuck. Wait, was it you, Chuck? It was. not me. Uh that that gentleman is I. guess either still undercover or just.

never wanted his identity out there. Right. So he uh yeah, he may still live. in Colorado Springs. Who knows? Maybe. he's on a case right now for all I know. But uh so this Chuck guy uh he's he was. recruited by Ron Stalworth to play Ron. Stalworth to the clan because Chuck was. white. He was already an undercover. narcotics agent. And apparently he was. friendly enough with Ron Stalworth to. say, "Yes, I will I will join this. investigation, buddy. Let's do it.". Yeah. And here's the thing, though. He.

was uh he this wasn't his like primary. case. So Chuck is undercover on a lot of. different assignments. So he's not. around as much as Stalworth needs him. Mhm. So like in the movie, most of this. stuff is done over the phone. Like he. spends a lot of time in this. investigation on the phone. Mhm. speaking uh to these clansmen who think. that he's a white man. And when they. needed to meet, he would send Chuck in. who uh and we'll get to the voice part.

in a minute because that's when I was. watching the movie, I was like, "Do none. of these dummies not realize that they. don't sound anything alike, right?" You. know, cuz they've been talking to him on. the phone at length. Yeah. Um but they. had they had their first meeting. Um. they uh they got together and I believe. they met um they met somewhere at first. and then went to a bar. after like as the second part of that. meeting. Yeah. They met at a conven so. the movie supposedly portrays this. realistically. They they this Chuck guy.

who is portraying Ron Stalworth to the. clan um met they met at a convenience. store and he was said he was told to get. in the car and then they drove to a. second location which man that's scary. stuff. And also he's also wearing a wire. at the time. Like that's something that. that the the movie kind of gets across. but especially in like articles about. the story don't necessarily dive into. This Chuck Cat was like putting himself. out there. Oh, sure. As every undercover. detective does, right? So, I mean, Ron.

Stalworth is conducting this. investigation. He's the mastermind of. it. He's leading this whole thing. But. this poor Chuck guy has to go hang out. with these, you know, violent clans. members or clan members on, you know, like fairly frequently from what I. understand. So, hats off to him. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it was it was. definitely like it required both of. their best efforts to get away with this. for that long, right? was quite the. ruse. So, uh, Chuck meets with them, eventually earns their trust. along with the the phone work of.

Stalworth, and then he actually gets, um, successfully admitted about 2 months. later and got his little I guess you get. a little membership card. He still has. it. He does. He did not throw it away. like in the movie. He has it framed, in. fact. Uh and on the back of the card. were six codes of conduct. One of which. said um never discuss any clan affairs. with any plane close officer on a state, local or national level. Right. So there.

is a lot of comedy in the movie if you. haven't seen it. Um. I mean it's it's a serious thing that. they're doing, but there are a lot of. laughs as well. A lot of laughs and a. lot of like movie formula steps that. that Spikeley purposefully follows, you. know, very faithfully, too. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, um, there's a big point. there that we left out though, Chuck. So. to get that membership card supposedly. like again as they say in Colorado the. oysters on this guy his he had so he met.

so the fake um fake Ron Stalworth Chuck. met with the clan impressed them enough. between Ron the real Ron Stalworth's. phone calls and Chuck's whatever Chuck. was saying in in person. All this. combined made the the Colorado Springs. clan members say, "Okay, we like you. We. want you to be a member. fill out this. application and we'll send it off to the. um to the national director of of again. the clan we should say I don't know if. we've ever said this the clan calls. itself the organization right rather.

than the clan so they and and the guy. who ran the thing I don't know if he. still runs it or not but he definitely. did at this time during this. investigation is a guy named David Duke. who if you grew up in the 80s or I think. even the 90s you were probably pretty. familiar with David Duke I believe he. ran president once, didn't he? I don't. know. I mean, he he was Wasn't he the. governor of Louisiana? I don't Maybe. that's what it is. Maybe he ran for. that. But he was the grand wizard of the. Ku Klux Clan, and he was trying to make.

it a more political organization, less. less of a terrorist organization and. more of a political organization under. his guidance, but it was still the Ku. Klux Clan. Like there were still plenty. of times when he was wearing robes and. stuff. He just never did in public. So. during this time, he was he was the. national director, the grand wizard of. the clan. And when Ron Stalworth didn't. get his application pushed through fast. enough, he picked up the phone and. called the national headquarters and. ended up to talking with David Duke and.

saying like, "Hey, my application's. taking a while. Is there anything you. can do about it?" And this kicked off. like a what what um Ron Stalworth would. later characterize in a weird way as a. friendship between him, a black. undercover detective in Colorado, and. David Duke, the grand wizard of the Ku. Klux Clan. Yeah. And by the way, I don't. want to get uh angry emails from David. Duke's supporters. Uhhuh. Uh he was a uh. Republican um Louisiana state rep. He.

was not governor. Um but but I think he. ran for some some high office. Oh, he. did. He ran uh he was a candidate for. the Democratic presidential primaries in. the late 80s and then the Republican. primaries in '92. He ran as a Democrat. and then a uh I could see that solid. South kind of thing. Yeah. And I think. he ran for state senate and lost. Uh US. Senate and lost, uh US House and lost. And he did run for governor of. Louisiana, but he lost. Gotcha. Okay.

and and you may be if you're if you. didn't grow up in the 80s, you may have. heard his name more recently uh because. um he fully endorsed uh Donald Trump's. campaign and after Donald Trump won, he. um this was his quote on Twitter. Uh. make no mistake, our people have played. a huge role in electing Trump. So he was. he was in the news again more recently. Well, he was also in Charlottesville um. if not leading the the rally to unite.

the right. Definitely a a big speaker at. it, a big a big part of it. Um and. Spike Lee uses some of his footage from. that rally u to kind of get across that, you know, this stuff is still going on. This isn't from the 70s or or earlier. How great was Toe for Grace? He was. wonderful. He was so good. And he looks. a lot like David Duke of the 70s. He. really does. Unfortunately for him, the. stash and the three-piece suits and all. that. So yeah, he did a good job. But so.

so yeah, in the movie Toe for Grace from. that 70s show. Um always he will always. be from that 70s show. Yeah, he plays um. what do you want me to say? Like he he. had a bit part in Oceans 11 or. something. Brad Pitt's character was. teaching him to play poker. I think I. forgot about that. You know that guy. No, he's that 70s show of course. So, so. he uh he plays David Duke in the in the. movie and there this this is this is. it's really funny like Spike Lee added. stuff that just you you would think like.

well yeah of course it's totally. believable like Chuck being Jewish in. real life and he actually wasn't. That's. that's fabricated by the movie. So you. would just not even think twice about. that. But it turns out that's not true. The stuff that seems the least true is. actually the stuff that actually. happened. And for a very long time, well, at the very least over the course. of this 9-month investigation, there. were multiple phone calls that were very. cordial and friendly where um Ron. Stalworth would call David Duke and.

posing as a white clan member and pump. information. They would talk about, you. know, David Duke's family and like just. have nor normal conversations that would. inevitably turn back to racism and the. um the the weakening of the white race. uh at the hands of, you know, the Jewish. media and all the minorities who were. taking over. And so it would it would. inevitably turn disgusting. But he he. said later, I think in the book and in. interviews where if you could separate. that stuff out, he was actually a. pleasant person to talk to. And that's.

where that weird friendship that he. characterized it as kind of developed. from those conversations. But there is. like he couldn't make this stuff up, you. know. Exactly. But there is at least one. video of David Duke basically admitting. that yes, this he had conversations with. this guy. He tries to downplay it. Sure. But uh he does basically verify that. yes, that's true. That really happened. Well, and Duke's probably like I can't. remember every phone call I had with. every random racist over the years,

right? There were a lot of them. Even. this guy posing as one. Um, all right. Well, let's take another break and uh. we're going to go uh we're going to talk. a little bit more about this weird David. Duke relationship right after this. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].

All right. So, he's buddying up with. David Duke on the phone. He's fooling. everybody. And he even like you get the. sense that he does have a little bit of. sense of humor um Stalworth because at. one point he even goatated him on the. phone a little bit and this is in the. movie and it was totally true. Yeah. He. said you know Mr. Duke have you ever. worried about like a black man posing as.

a white man and infiltrating your. organization? And Duke said no. And he said uh and. this this is from the NPR interview with. Stalworth. said, "I can tell you're. white because you don't talk like a. black man." He said, "You talk like a. very smart, intellectual white man, and. I can tell by the way you pronounce. certain words." And he said, "You know, give me an example." And he said, "Black. people tend to pronounce the word r, ara, and I can tell by listening to you. that you're not black because you do not.

pronounce that word in that manner. It's. science.". Case closed. Oh boy, he was so easily. duped. I love it. Uh and then they also. uh did in fact meet in person. Um that. part is true as well. Duke came to town. um and was having lunch. It was not a. big ceremony uh like in the movie, but. he came to town to have lunch and the. department assigned Stalworth to protect. him. And so he goes there to the.

restaurant, introduces himself to. protect him. Duke says, "All right, I. appreciate you uh them, you know, sending someone my way." And Chuck is. undercover there as well. And he does in. fact Stalworth pose with David Duke and. gets a Polaroid with him. So this. sounded to me like what what was the. what was going on here? Like I mean like. you've got this investigation going. This is this takes place during this. this undercover investigation that. Stalworth's conducting. You have a guy.

who's already like putting himself out. there, Chuck, as as the white Ron. Stalworth. And then the chief says, "Oh, yes. By the way, um you the only. African-American police officer in our. entire um squad, you go be David Duke's. uh bodyguard for the day while he's in. town in Colorado Springs." Like, that. was just bizarre. and not only do it um. do that that that very like obvious. overt act slap in the face to David.

Duke, which is great, but if it but it. could have jeopardized like this whole. this whole thing because you also you. had the guy portraying Ron Stalworth uh. um in the same room at the same lunch. It just seemed really strange. And. again, that was one of those things. where when you watch the movie, you. would think like, well, that's just made. up. No, that actually took place, at. least according to Ron Stalworth's. memoirs, and that that that Chuck was in. the room, was asked to take a picture by. Ron Stalworth with David Duke and the.

Grand Dragon, I guess, who must be like. the head of the state in Colorado. And. then at the last second when he was. counting down, he put his arms around. the shoulders of the two clan guys and. then got his hands on the picture. Apparently, all of that was the case, but he's since lost the picture. Yeah. And Duke really did try to get it back. and uh Stalworth like got to it quicker. and said basically like if you try to. take this thing, I will have you. arrested for assaulting a police. officer. Like don't do it. Don't think.

about it. Right. So, he said he lost it. in a move. He wish he had taken better. care of it. But, um the idea that it was. like that's just so nuts. It tells you a. lot about the investigation though to. me. like it makes you say like, "Okay, how seriously were they taking this. investigation at the time?" If Stalworth. later said, "All right, this is this is. just um you know, this is just another. job to me. When I started it, I did the. job and then when it was done, I moved. on to another job." The fact that he.

didn't talk about it much until I think. he spoke about it to the press once in. 2006 in a a Desert News article um and. then didn't talk about it again until. 2014 when his memoirs came out. um it. was just like a a thing that they were. doing that other people were doing other. stuff too. Um and then to to have like. that part of it that the idea that you. would you would jeopardize it in that. way just makes it seem like they weren't. taking it as that big of a an operation.

as as like the movie would like to to. believe. I'm not sure. Well, I think in. in real life it was a it was a. information gathering investigation. Like it was never we're going to take. down the clan in Colorado. Um it was. let's infiltrate and get as much. information and factf finding as we can. Mhm. Um and in the end after 8 months um. that's kind of what happened. It was he. considers uh Stalworth considers it a. success in that they fulfilled their.

mission. Mhm. Um they did prevent three. cross burning ceremonies during that. 8-month span or 9month span, right? And. they did identify um clan members who. worked at NORAD, right? Who apparently. they said they uh I mean these days they. would be fired probably, but they said. they reassigned them to like Greenland. or something, right? Because they had. access to the to nuclear weapons. Apparently they had very high level. clearance at NORAD, which is scary. And then they also found plans that they.

didn't act on. Like the whole bomb plot. in the movie was was made up for. dramatic purposes, but uh they did find. links between a for a plan to um bomb a. gay nightclub and another plan to steal. automatic weapons from an army base, like an inside job. Mhm. So, it was, you. know, it was valuable work they were. doing for sure. It just wasn't like. we're going to take the clan down. Like. I don't think it was the the. department's big uh big job at the time. No, certainly not. And and in the.

memoirs and in the movie too, the the. reason that's given for the the um the. undercover operation to end is because. it started to become successful. Um Ron. Stalworth was nominated to lead the. Colorado Springs chapter of the clan. Like Ken Odell basically said, "You. should take my job. Everybody likes you. You're really good at this. You're. smart. um you should lead the clan here. Uh and the the police chief of Colorado. Springs said, "That's it. Close it down. Burn all the evidence of this.

investigation." He apparently was. worried about what what a PR nightmare. it would be if it got out that some of. his detectives were in the Colorado. Springs clan. But at the same time, what. strikes me as odd is that the FBI wasn't. like, "Oh, well, geez, this guy is like. being nominated to lead the Colorado. Springs clan, right? He's talking to. David Duke." Like really that this this. could not be kind of blown up into a. larger investigation or a larger sting. or something like that. And then.

secondly, and um Ron Stalworth himself. addresses this, the there's a very. frequently a criticism of well, if this. was such a big operation and they found. all this stuff, why wasn't anyone. arrested? Why weren't there any arrests? And David Duke says, right, not just. David Duke. Stalworth says also that. some that in law enforcement too, people. question that like why wasn't anyone. arrested? and he said it was an in intel. investigation and and that's what they. did was they gathered stuff. But then he.

very rightly points out like you said. like the fact that they prevented cross. burnings alone makes it a worthwhile and. valuable operation. I think just some. people on the outside are saying well. why wasn't why wasn't more done? Why. didn't more come out of this? You know. and I'm not quite sure what they're. driving at but there are you know. Stalworth brings that up in an interview. I read with him like that people do ask. that and wonder about that. Yeah. And. Stalworth uh is very proud of the fact. that with the cross burnings he was like. no I can't remember the quote but he. said something about like no children in.

Colorado Springs got to you know no. young black kids had to see crosses on. fire right during that eight or. ninemonth period and uh very proud of. that as they should be. Yeah for real. Uh, so I mentioned the voice earlier and. the fact that he had a a different voice. obviously than Chuck and um he said one. time, only one time uh and I think this. was in the movie, wasn't it? Um, or was. it? It's been a while. Yeah, it was. actually. No, it was. I remember. Yeah. So, one time in the whole investigation.

did someone say like, "Wait a minute, you sound different." Um Chuck had just. been at a in-person meeting, came back. uh and then um Stalworth wants to follow. up on the phone with Ken Odell about. something right afterward. So he had. just heard Chuck's voice for whatever. this whole meeting and was talking to. him and he was like, "Wait a minute, you. sound different. What's going on?" And. he he just pulled it off. He coughed and. said he had a sinus infection and Ken. Odell was like, "Oh well, here's how you. clear that up." And gave him some good.

sinus medication advice, right? Yeah, they definitely appeared in the movie. I mean, you could not make this thing. up, you know? It's crazy. No, for real. And apparently for a long time, Stalworth was saying like, "Yeah, it was. just another job. It was just another. operation." And I guess he told some. some fellow like law enforcement friends. or whatever about it. And they're like, "Dude, you this is a movie. You need to. write this down. You need to get this. out there. You This is a a one ina. million story." Yeah. I wonder one.

reason it didn't go bigger operationwise. was because. the sort of hackneed way they got into. it. Like he's the voice but they're. sending a a white man. I can see that. Like it's it's I'm surprised he pulled. it off for that long. Yeah, I could. totally see that. Uh, one final thing. that did not happen in real life but did. happen in the movie and this is what. when you usually will change real life. is to to get a more satisfying ending. But uh, Stalworth did not unfortunately.

reveal his true identity to David Duke. like he does uh to hilarious effect in. the film unfortunately. No, how sad to. learn that he was saying like yeah, he. just he didn't really talk about it. until the 2000s. So, David Duke didn't. know until I guess the memoirs came out. Yeah. And you know, well, I guess we. should talk about Spike Lee getting. criticized. Um, Boots Riley, director, uh, who I had on Movie Crush, by the. way. He um I know. What was his movie?

Uh, sorry to Bother You was his film. that he made. No, I mean his pick for. Movie Crush. His pick was a movie called. Mishima, A Life in Four Chapters. Okay. Yeah, it was a great film and his like. his knowledge on movies was deep. He. turned me on to a lot of cool things. I. thought for a very a very terrible. second you were saying his pick was his. own movie. No. No. But he uh you know Boots does not hold. back on what he thinks. Um, and while.

you would think that he would be like, "Oh, no. I'm going to be a champion of. Spike Lee and telling the story," he. came out very publicly on Twitter and ve. very. uh, intelligently criticized it. He. didn't just bag on it. He wrote a big. um, long statement on exactly what he. thought was wrong with it. Yeah. He. basically said, "Look, man, if you take. away all the embellishments that Spike. Lee added to this movie, what you have. is a a guy who who's probably biggest. assignment, and I'm not sure where he. got this, but he focused on that that um.

Stokeley Carmichael thing and the fact. that um Ron Stalworth had worked. undercover um to infiltrate the Black. Power movement in Colorado Springs and. that he had worked on that for like. three years and that this clan thing was. just a like a nine-month thing. And he. also criticized Spikeley for making it. making the movie seem like law. enforcement and the black power movement. came together to fight racism, right? And that that like that was a larger.

point or that that was historically. accurate or something like that. Um it. was a a really interesting it was like a. three-page essay that he posted on. Twitter that made some good points. He. basically said, "From what I can tell, it looks like Ron Stalworth was working. for COINTELP Pro, which is the FBI's. um. it was their their program to undermine. groups, including Black Power Groups, which we mentioned it in the Black. Panther episode we did, and it.

co-intelpro definitely deserves its own. episode." Yeah. And it was it was ended. officially in 1971, but I think Boots. Riley's point was um it might have been. officially ended, but the the work was. still going on. And if this guy was. infiltrating black power um like groups. in Colorado Springs, he was almost. certainly trying to break them up one. way or another, probably using co-intel. um purposes or or practices. And Ron. Stalworth, he had a pretty great quote.

in response to it. He said, um, I pray. for my demented, dissolute brother in. response to Boots Riley. And Spike Lee. has no comment about it whatsoever. So, who knows? But you make a good point. that like he's he's he's. not just giving like blind allegiance to. anything. Sure. Well, Spike did comment. eventually. Um Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah, he was he was in an interview and. the first thing he said was like, "Hey, I'm a I'm a young man of 61 or something.

like that." like, you know, young me. might have kind of gotten into a war of. words, but he's just not into that. anymore. Um, but he did say uh briefly. something about Listen, I'm not going to. come out and say that all cops are. racist and all cops do bad things cuz. they don't all do bad things. There's a. lot of great cops. There's also bad. cops. Um, and he kind of just couched it. in that and then was like, but you know, I'm not going to be really talking about. this anymore. Right. Yeah. I hadn't seen.

that. that he'd even have that comment. Yeah. So, it's interesting stuff and. it's a good movie at the very least. Oh, for sure. You know, I think I think Ron. Stalworth is like, man, they made a. movie about my story. That's pretty. awesome. And at the very least, it's a. pretty great movie. How about that? Totally. Totally. So, um, if you you got. anything else? I got nothing else. If. you want to know more about Black. Clansmen, you should probably go see. that movie. And I guess we probably. should have said at the outset, this.

episode is not an ad. No, of course not. We just like the movie a lot, right? Yeah. I mean, you could say it's an ad, but like no one gave us money or asked. us to do this. Sure. Uh, okay. But I am. endorsing it. Okay, there you go. I am. endorsing it as well. It has two thumbs. up as it were. Yeah. Rest in peace, Roger Eert and Jean Cisco. Two thumbs. Uh, okay. So, if uh or I already I. already said that. How about some. listener mail?

Yeah. I'm going to call this pingpong. response from a former pro. Oh, nice. Hey guys, want to commend you on the job. you did covering a sport that you didn't. have an extensive uh extensive knowledge. of. I'm a professional table tennis. coach and former player. I started. playing in college. Thought I was really. good until I was coerced to go to a. tournament at Princeton University about. 20 years ago and I got destroyed. I. didn't like that. So, I sought out to. coach uh and the rest is history. Uh you. guys clearly did a lot of research and. uh to highlight the things that most. novice players aren't aware of, but.

there were a few things I couldn't help. but point out. Uh Josh, you mentioned. the components of the modern racket. You. said the pimpled sign, those are called. pips, are for spinning the ball, that. the smooth side is for defensive play, but the opposite is actually true. Oh, no. Um I I didn't catch that because I. would have pointed that out. I thought. everyone knew that. Thank you for that. You get good spin on. that smooth side. Uh for real? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's grippy. All right. Uh he said. the smooth side is very tacky. Um as in.

sticky. Oh. And that combined with the. sponge underneath allows the ball to. sink in just enough so that the tacky. surface grips the ball and generates a. lot of spin. Also, you can have uh. really have any combination of rubber. that you want as long as it's ITTF. approved. Players are not restricted to. having one smooth side and one with. pips. Uh, but one side does have to be. red and the other black. Uh, most. defensive players use pips on their. backhand because pips vary the spin that. is coming back at you and is very hard.

to read. Uh, also Chuck, you mentioned. that defensive players are called. chislers. They're actually called. choppers as they chop the ball back with. varying backspin. I've never heard the. term chislers. I'm wondering if it is. extremely outdated. Maybe. I bet you. that was the case. Yeah, I had old. research. Chislas. That's what they call it in the 20s. He. said, "If you guys are ever in the. Dunellan, New Jersey area, stop by.". We're there right now. Stop by the Lily.

Yip Table Tennis Club and I'll gladly. hook you guys up with a lesson. I will. gladly humiliate you in person. Uh and. that is Thomas from uh Philly. Thanks, Thomas. Um much appreciated. We like it. when we are gently corrected because we. like to be right. So, thanks for that. Uh, if you want to get in touch with us, let us know um, I don't know, something. we got wrong about Black Clansmen, let. us know. Uh, you can find all of our. social links on stuff you should. know.com. And as always, send us an.

email to stuffodcast atstuffworks.com. [Music]. For more on this and thousands of other. topics, visit howuffworks.com. [Music].