SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: The Harvey’s Casino Bombing of 1980 | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. The bombing of Harvey's Casino in Lake. Tahoe, Nevada is one of the great. overlooked capers. It's kind of nuts how. anything like the Harvey's bombing could. ever be forgotten considering the. outcome. This episode has it all. A. great plot, incompetent criminals, an. amazingly well-designed bomb, and a huge. explosion. And it's made even cooler. somehow because it takes place in 1980. Plus, no one dies, which makes it okay. for me to call this episode kind of. charming. Enjoy.

>> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. And this is Stuff You Should Know. The True Crime Edition where nobody gets. hurt. Isn't that amazing? >> Yeah, I think this falls into our sort. of caper addish. >> Yes. Well put. Well put.

>> Um, do do we have any other capers? >> Yeah, like the Chowchilla kidnapping and. I think any non-murder crime podcast I. think would fall under this like DB DB. Cooper. >> Exactly. And um before I forget, Chuck, that was definitely a caper. Good call. Um, this was a request, which like you. said last time, uh, we've been doing a. lot of these lately, but this one was. requested by Nick Hails, and I say good. request, Nick. Thanks for that. And I. totally spaced on, um, shouting out Neil.

Stevens from the UK for Georgia Guidest. episode. He requested it and gave me the. idea to do it. >> All right, nice work. This one was so. familiar to me that I was sure that we. had either touched on it or that I saw. what I really thought was that I saw a. documentary about it, >> but I hadn't cuz I don't think there's. been one. Uh I don't know what it is. It was. really familiar with some other thing, true life thing that I saw.

>> I don't know. I don't know. But the the. fact that there's not a movie about this. is insane. >> Yeah. I don't know if it's movie worthy. >> Oh, really? Yeah. >> Oh. Oh, man. Just like the the pork chop. sideburns alone, I think would would. warrant a movie. But um that because I. said pork chop sideburns, of course, we're talking about 1980, right, Chuck? August 26th, 1980. >> That's right. Uh, and on August 26th, 1980, uh, very early in the morning, a. couple of delivery dudes, would be. delivery dudes,

>> uh, wheeled a big piece of equipment, uh, it had a cover on it said IBM, uh, into Harvey's Resort Hotel in Lake. Tahoe, Nevada. Uh, shout out to our. buddy Aaron Hagar representing Lake. Taho. >> See in Tahoe? >> Oh, yeah. He's got it made out there in. Tahoe. >> Nice. >> Except for the bears and wildfires. I'll. bet he's heard of this story then. >> He I bet you he has. We'll hear from him. on this. Uh but anyway, they wheeled it. in there uh up to the second floor. offices and dropped it off and basically.

skitaddled after that. They had a guy. waiting in a van outside and drove them. the heck out of there. >> Yeah. So, it's kind of weird. 5 a.m. to. drop off a piece of office equipment, not waiting around for anybody to sign. it. Kind of odd. And within an hour, the. oddity behind it kind of became really. apparent. a slot manager, I believe, or. maybe the night manager in general. Um, he noticed this piece of office. equipment that was kind of randomly. placed on the second floor offices, and. he saw that there was a note by it, and.

he gathered some other employees, and. they were all kind of hanging out. reading the note. And one of the details. I love um that I saw in a um Adam. Higinbottom uh article on on the Adavist. um was that one of the people reading. the note was leaning up against the. machine while they were reading the. note. >> All right. The note said, "Should we read the. note?". >> Yeah, because then it makes the whole. thing about somebody leaning up against. it really hilarious. >> All right. Stern warning to the.

management and bomb squad. At which case. I would have been out of there. That's. all I need to hear. >> Right. Exactly. >> Uh do not move or tilt this bomb because. the mechanism controlling the detonators. in it will set it off at a movement of. less than 0.01. uh of the openend RTOR scale. So let's. confuse people right out of the gate is. what this note is what this guy's. thinking. >> Sure. >> Uh don't try to flood or gas the bomb. There's a float switch and an atmosphere. pressure switch set uh at two numbers.

26.00 to 33. Uh both are attached to. detonators. Do not try to take it apart. The flathead screws are attached to. triggers and as much of a quarter to 3/4. of a turn will cause the explosion. Uh. in other words, this bomb is so. sensitive that the slightest movement. either inside or outside will cause it. to explode. Full stop. >> Yeah. And you can guess the person. leaning against the machine stood up and. moved away from it. Right. >> That's right. Uh and basically they said. >> I love that part. No one can detonate or.

no one can uh can uh deactivate this. bomb. Not even I, not even the creator. can diffuse this thing. So, it is going. to go off at some point. Your best hope. of not getting hurt is to pay a $3,000. ransom and you're going to receive. instructions on how to move it out of. here so it can explode somewhere else. >> Yeah. And it would have been a bargain. for $3,000. It was actually a $3 million. ransom. >> Did I say 3,000? You you did I think you. were being optimistic. Yeah.

>> But it was a it was a big fat ransom. And um the the bomb itself I mean if you. just look at the uh at the the ransom. note when it's talking about the bomb. that's a pretty amazing bomb. And it. actually became pretty legendary with. the FBI. So much so that I saw that they. still I don't know if they still do. today but for many years they used it as. a teaching model for um bomb technicians. and the FBI considered it very. sophisticated and they said it was.

unlike anything any bomb technician had. ever seen before. No one had ever made a. bomb like this. >> Yeah. Very good bomb if there was such a. thing. Uh it was a couple of stacked. boxes uh lined with metal and rubber uh. that through conventional methods uh you. couldn't separate uh of course without. it going boom. And so the FBI did what. they do in this case. They come in, they. start taking pictures, they x-ray it, they sweep it for fingerprints. Uh. obviously they don't move it. Uh they.

find out that it has about a thousand. pounds of dynamite inside. >> Yeah. and they can't find a way to like. basically they're saying this note seems. to be right on the money like we can't. find a way at least right off the bat uh. about how to diffuse this thing safely. >> Yeah. And very famously the um bomb. technicians in the room started running. around in aimless circles saying oh my. god oh my god oh my god and they did. that for a good three hours I think. before somebody stepped in and stopped. them. But that ransom note also um.

showed a lot of planning. Not just the. bomb, like this bomb was amazing. Just. full stop amazing. One to really be. proud of if you were a bomb maker. Um. but the actual heist itself had like a. real shot at extorting this $3 million. successfully. Um and it started with um. they they they knew what they were doing. out of the gate. They said, "We want $3. million in used bills, $100 bills. already used, not marked, not bugged. Don't even try to chemically treat them.

Um, and we want you to fly a helicopter. to Lake Tahoe airport, have the pilot. land by the pay phone and wait by the. pay phone for instructions. Are. instructions going to come from the pay. phone? Who knows? They could also come. by taxi. Uh, they could also come by. carrier pigeon. I'm making that last one. up, but they were just trying out of the. gate to to confuse them so that they. couldn't plan for everything. Um, and it. was I think it was a really wellplanned. heist. >> Yeah. I mean, they basically said no one.

involved from this point that you meet. up with, like anyone that might deliver. a note, any someone that might drive a. vehicle that's involved, like no one's. going to know anything, so don't bother. And I think I believe that that's. probably true. >> Um, they said that the, you know, I, the. creator of the bomb, I'm not going to be. a part of this money drop. I'm not going. to be around. Uh, nobody that's a part. of any of this exchange of money is. going to know anything about how to.

diffuse this bomb. Like, if this thing. is going to go off and there's nothing. you can do to stop it, again, the only. thing that you can do is follow what. will ultimately be six sets of. instructions to safely get this bomb out. of there after I get my loot. >> Yeah. after he gets the loot or they. um so the the first set of instructions. was going to be given to the helicopter. pilot. The rest of the instructions. would arrive through the local post. office which is putting a lot of a lot. of faith in the USPS. But then there was.

another demand too that was probably the. most ridiculous demand of all. They said. that all news media, local or national, was to be kept ignorant of the heist. until the bomb was successfully removed. Right. >> Yeah. That that was impossible. totally. impossible because the first thing the. cops did when they realized like this is. for real, which they figured out pretty. quickly. I think the thing was. discovered before 6:00 a.m. and by 7 or. 8 at the very latest, they were rousing. um hotel guests at Harvey's. Um many of.

them from sleep telling them like, "Nope, you don't have time to grab your. belongings. You got to go." Uh, and not. only did they evacuate Harvey's, a. thousand pounds of dynamite can do some. real damage, they actually evacuated. Hara's across the street from Harvey's, too. >> Yeah. So, they said, "You're all going. to go to this nearby high school." And. of course, the media, it's a it's a big. thing when that happens when people are. being like massively bust out in their. uh bathroes and stuff. So,

basically within a few hours, like all. the media knows this, they cordon off. the area. There's people hanging out. There's there's gawkers. There's. reporters. There's Before you know it, of course, because there's casinos. around there, they're taking bets, of. course, like over under on whether this. thing's going to detonate. >> And not only did they not keep the media. out of it, but it became like uh I mean, call it a sensation indicates that it it. drugg on. It was like a day and change, but it was a crazy day and change for. the media.

>> for sure. And it was over the week. before Labor Day weekend. So, Tahoe was. crawling with people. Um, and this was. 1980, right? Um, just 36 years before. the first casino was opened on the. southshore of Lake Tahoe, and it was. opened by the same guy whose hotel now. had a bomb in it, Harvey Gross. Um, his. first thing was Harvey's Wagon Wheel. Saloon, and Gambling Hall, which I saw. described as a cabin. Um, that had six.

slot machines in it. Um, and at the time. in Tahoe Chuck, there was no phone, no. water, no sewer, no power lines. The. roads would close at like the first sign. of snow. Um, and it was like a a real. podunk area, but gambling made it. Actually, put it on the map. >> For a second there, I thought you were. going to say not a single luxury. >> Oh man, I really should have. I wish I. had. I'm not on my game today. Like. Robinson Caruso, they were what?

primitive as can be, right? >> That's what they said, but it was the. 60s. You wouldn't say that anymore. >> Uh, so things go great for Harvey and. his little wagon wheel uh cabin, you. know, it's on the state line of. California. So that's a pretty smart. thing because you get those out ofers, those richies from California throwing. down some money. >> Yeah. And it was so on the state line. It was in a town called State Line. >> That's very Nevada. >> It's very on the nose. Nevada. I'm so.

nervous about us saying it the right way. cuz those people will email you like. gang busters. >> Oh, it's Nevada. But I always say. Nevada. >> Okay. But they say it Nevada. >> Yeah. Everyone outside the state of. Nevada says Nevada and that drives them. nuts. >> Drives them crazy. It's really. something. >> So, uh, Harvey, uh, no, let's wait on. the break. So, Harvey was doing great, uh, with this little tiny casino in the. 40s through the 50s. Makes a lot of. dough. and by 63 had uh expanded and.

upgraded to Harvey's Lake Tahoe, which. uh at the time was the tallest building. um at 11 stories, which is, you know, that's a pretty tall building for that. area of the country. >> Yeah. Less than 20 years, he went from a. a cabin to an 11story casino resort. Yeah. And I believe it was at that same. 11story casino resort that this bomb um. was placed in in 1980 17 years later. Um. and Harvey himself was like I mean he.

was a casino owner in Nevada. Like he. had I don't want to say a checkered past. but he had a past like he had um been. hauled in front of the IRS for tax. evasion. There was um he he had been. given an honorary name by the Nevada. intertribal did I say it right? Nevada. >> Nope. by the Nevada Yeah. intertribal council. Uh he was called Chief Hunai. And there. was an article that was written back in. I think 1980 that said that it meant uh.

the man who runs the game and takes a. percentage of the bets. >> I don't know if that's a joke or not. I. can't tell. >> I don't either because that's definitely. like a that era kind of joke. You know, >> you can see that on like a tiki tiki. napkin. Uh, but the long and short of it is he. was he'd had his little run-ins with the. IRS and stuff and the gaming board, but. it wasn't anything unusual. He wasn't. like some bad guy like mafioso type. He. was like you said, he owned a casino and. there's, you know, he's going to be. brought up by the IRS at some point. Um,

but all of this to say, he wasn't like. some. uh some big mark because of like all his. dirty dealings uh in his past. basically. >> I saw him actually referred to as a good. guy by some people. >> like he he um was well known to have put. off expansion like he didn't want to. expand to other towns. Uh he basically. said I'm I'm making enough money. Uh he. he had a quote that he would refer to as. um I have a nice little business. How.

many steaks can I eat? Which is to say. like he had everything he needed and. this was fine. He was happy with his. business where it was. >> That's right. But it was uh the 70s and. into the early 80s, which was um just. sort of the golden age of all this kind. of stuff of. >> kidnappings and ransoms and hijackings. And it just seems like all this kind of. hijinks. There's still stuff like that happens. occasionally, but not like it did back.

then. >> I think it's because Chuck, the police. state hadn't evolved enough that they. would catch you no matter what. >> Yeah. cameras everywhere now, >> right? And lead and gas had been around. long enough to really have the effects. on a whole new generation of brains. So. you put those two things together, you. have everything converging on the 70s. for people trying all sorts of heists. and kidnappings and stuff like that. >> Yeah. And that happened back then around. there. Even I think uh as far back as. the early '7s, there were uh kidnapping.

conspiracies uh against gross uh ransom. things that had been uncovered. Uh in. the late '7s, there were smoke bombs. with ransom notes found at other casinos. around Tahoe. So, >> I don't know about that. >> It was what the smoke bombs. >> Yeah. What is that? You might as well. say like here there's a box of sparklers. in your in your lobby. Give me 500,000. simoleons or else. >> give me 35 cents. >> I know. To pay me back for the smoke.

bomb. >> Um, so it was a time where uh if you. owned a casino that brought in I think. he made about 4 mil in profit but. brought in like $70 million a year like. his did. >> Then that simply just meant you were a. mark by virtue of that fact alone. >> Right. Um, the thing is though is the. FBI found out um as they started. investigating the case about a year. after that it actually was a personal. vendetta against Harvey himself or. Harvey's casino that led to that bomb.

being placed there in August of 1980. >> That sounds like a great cliffhanger for. a break. >> Thank you. Thanks, man. >> All right, we'll get back to it right. after this. [Music]. [Music]. All right, so we're back in action here.

at the bomb site. Uh the FBI's bomb. squad is working hard trying to figure. this thing out. Uh they have another. team working on a fake ransom drop. Uh, special agent William Jonkey basically. told Harvey, "Hey, listen. Why don't we. drag this thing out as much as we can? We'll do a fake payoff arrangement. Maybe we can just sort of put off this. bomb going off long enough for us to. figure it out either how to stop it or. how to catch these people. Like the bomb.

is going to go off no matter what." And. once uh Gross heard that, he was like, "Well, I'm not paying anything if this. thing's going off no matter what. You. can use my by God. you can use my own. helicopter for the drop even. >> And that's what they did. They used his. own personal helicopter, but the pilot. was uh a fed and there was another fed. with a gun hiding behind the pilot seat. uh with a suitcase full of mostly fake. money. >> Yeah, I think a few grand is what I saw. And just like the ransom note said, the.

agent flew the helicopter to Lake Tahoe. airport, landed next to the pay phone, um, and got there just in time from what. I saw to for the phone to start ringing. Although I suspect they were being. watched and the phone rang and rather. than giving them instructions over the. phone, I think it's hilarious that they. said, "Look underneath the phone, there's instructions taped beneath the. phone." And then I guess hung up. >> We didn't want to tape it to the front. of the phone booth, >> right? So he checks out the instructions. and it says, "Okay, this is what you're.

going to do. You're going to fly west. along the highway for 15 minutes from. the airport and you're going to turn. There's some compass setting they told. him to turn toward." I never found which. one. Um, and then after a certain amount. of time, he should start looking for a. beacon, which is going to be a strobe. light in a field. He should land there. and that's where the money drop would. happen. And so the pilot took off and he. did exactly as the thing instructed as. the ransom note instructed and there was. nothing. He flew around for 45 minutes.

just waiting hoping. I guess probably. came close to running out of gas and. then he flew back to the Lake Tahoe. airport and went back to the pay phone. in case they called to say like what the. heck's going on and they they never did. call actually. So the money drop never. happened. I wonder the Fed takes off and. he's got the other Fed behind him hiding. with a gun and he's like, "Hey, how do. you think this guy knows how far we're. going to be in 15 minutes?" And the. other Fed went beats me, right? >> And that's exactly what happened. Uh,

and it's at this point in the story. where we will introduce you to the the. guy behind the whole thing. Uh, and. we'll learn more about him later, but. his name was John Waldo Burgess Senior. And that was one of the key mistakes he. made. He kind of botched this money drop. >> because he uh he should have said miles. like fly so many miles or fly to this. destination. He just said fly for 15. minutes. >> Mhm. >> And I don't know if he put like at an.

average rate of speed for your. helicopter, >> right? >> Uh but the long and short of it is they. didn't know after he had flown 15. minutes exactly where he was going to. end up. And they were like, "Well, that. stinks." And this is after they had. forgotten the battery to the strobe. light, >> right? They they left it in Fresno. >> They eventually got one. Yeah, they left. it at their at their place. They. eventually got one. Uh they tried to. break into an auto part store to get one. and got chased off and then got one at a. shell station. So they had the strobe,

but by the time all this happens, they. don't even know where the helicopter is. >> No. And that Shell station also has its. own hilarious story because the gas. station attendant they were trying to. buy the battery from basically was like. why no you need this kind of battery for. the Volvo that you have parked outside. that you're driving they're like it. doesn't matter what kind of battery it's. for. He's like well yeah it does cuz. Volvo won't take any battery. And they. finally I guess convinced him to just. sell them a battery. And he's like fine.

I guess you're going to find out. yourself that it's not going to work. And they finally drove off. That's how. they got the battery. But they made it. to that drop point which was 25 miles. away from the airport and um they sat. there and waited and waited and waited. and waited and waited. No helicopter. No. helicopter came. And the reason why is. because they were separate separated by. so many miles they couldn't even hear. the helicopter where it was. It was so. far away from where they were at the. drop site. >> All right. So, this is botched. Uh, back.

at the the bomb site at the casino, this. a full-on party is going on because it's. a casino and people are just out of. their minds at those places. >> So, the barricades are set up. People. are selling t-shirts. I got bombed at. Lake Tahoe. I had a dynamite time at. Lake Tahoe. Like, that's how quickly. this thing was moving. >> And the bomb squad team said, "All. right, here's what I think we should. do." like they call this and they said. if we flip switch number five then it'll.

buy some more time because this thing. isn't playing out quite right. But I. don't know if I trust that no one. volunteered to flick that switch. Like. they they felt basically we should go on. our own uh like with our own gut feeling. on how to do this which is to. >> uh basically blow this box apart but do. it so quickly that it severs the uh. relay switch like before the signal can. reach the dynamite. >> Yeah. Which is pretty fast. And it was. possible. They had they had some of like. the greatest minds in the United States.

who knew about bombs working on this. problem. and they designed a charge. especially for this and it was built and. brought to the site and put up and they. said this still has at best a 25 to 30%. chance but we talked to the engineer one. of the engineers at Harvey's and he said. it probably won't bring the whole. building down so let's give it a shot. and so uh almost 35 hours after the bomb. had been discovered around 3 p.m. The. next day, a guy named Danny Denal um was.

the person who volunteered to go take. the charge, put it on the bomb exactly. at the angle he was told to put it at. and then walked out and started the the. countdown for the remote triggering. And. remember, there are hundreds if not. thousands of people throng together to. watch this to see if it worked. And when. they finally did, apparently they they. um broadcast the radio the countdown on. like local radio. Chuck. And when they. finally uh set it off, that charge did.

not work the way it was intended. >> No. It set off the bomb. Uh the entire. thing went off. And it was, like we. said, it was 1,000 lbs of dynamite. It. created a 40 to 50 foot hole in the. ground in the middle of this casino. Uh. shooting shrapnel everywhere, obviously. shooting cash and chips everywhere, which is obviously problem uh. problematic. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> they said there were TV sets swinging on. cords, toilets hanging by the pipes. It. was a huge massive explosion in the.

middle of a casino. And because it's a. casino and because it's Tahoe, it was. not very long afterward that the. surrounding casinos got right back to. business. And it didn't take too long, a. couple of days before Harvey's got back. to business, >> uh, with what was left of the casino. They put glass around it and was kind of. like, "Hey, come see the bomb hole and. and gamble some. >> and watch the FBI work on this crime. scene that's that is just took place.".

So, one of the other great details of. this story for me is that the bandits. didn't know that the bomb had been. detonated. And so, a few minutes after. the bomb went off, they called the local. sheriff's office and said, "Uh, we'll be. calling back in 1 hour to arrange. another payment drop.". >> He said, "Whatever." Yeah. Can't you. imagine like the the person who took the. call being like, "Oh, yeah, great. Okay, we'll talk to you in an hour.". >> Yeah. Yeah. So, that didn't matter. Harvey Gross uh was very sad. He just. cried when he saw the damage. Um $18.

million worth of damage. Uh and you. know, we'll tell you what ultimately. happened later, but um they got back to. business like I said, and I guess we. should talk a little bit more about who. this mastermind was. >> I agree, Chuck. And I say before we. start talking about the mastermind. behind the plot, we take a break. All. right, let's do it. [Music].

[Music]. So, we already revealed who it was, a. guy named John Burgess, Senior. Um, and. his son wrote a book later that I saw he. called the publisher to find out how. many copies had been sold at the time. and they told him zero. >> But in this book, uh, he depicts his dad. as not a very nice guy. He was an.

abusive husband, physically abusive, a. really, uh, terrible dad. Um, he like to. emotionally blackmail his family by. threatening to take his life by suicide. Um, and he was an actual Nazi, like a. genuine Nazi, just to just to put the. cherry on top of everything. >> Yeah. He flew for the Luftwaffa and uh. spent eight years in a Soviet prison. camp before uh coming to America and. becoming a multi-millionaire. So, it. kind of ended up okay for him. He had a.

landscaping business in Fresno. >> that apparently did really, really well. Uh but he also liked to gamble a lot and. lost a ton of money over the years. Uh I. think about $750,000. they'd estimated uh that he lost I think. at Harvey's alone. Right. >> I think that was the whole shebang, but. most of that was at Harvey's. That was. my take on it. >> Okay. And and we do need to put a pin in. something else is that years before uh.

he had a a business, a restaurant that. it was pretty clear that he burned down. for the insurance money. >> Uhhuh. >> Got up $355,000. from that and gambled that away. >> Yeah. He was that kind of guy, right? So, the heist itself, it was um it was. an attempt to make back some of the. money that the house had taken from him. over the years that he felt bitter. about. But also, the reason that he. targeted Harvey's, they later found out, was that on some New Year's Eve uh a.

year or two before, he had been given. the high roller suite. That's how often. he he gambled at Harvey's. Like, he was. well known there. Um, but he had amassed. such a debt that they actually took him. that evening out of the high roller. suite and put him in a regular room. >> That was why he did it, man. >> Much to his great humiliation. Yeah. I. mean, that was pretty much why he at the. very least why he targeted Harvey's. They he uh he considered that quite a a. loss of pride because I guess he was.

with a date and the date was like, "I. thought you said you were big time, right?". >> Which didn't make it any better. So. that's why Harvey's got targeted in. particular. That's right. And they put. Aaron Hagar in that suite instead. >> They did. And everything was right with. the world. >> That's right. Uh, so actually Aeron's. He's about He would have been a kid back. then. Or maybe they did. >> He could have been high rolling. >> Maybe he was like a nine or 10 year old. like running the show in that gambling. room. >> I could totally see it. >> So, uh, we mentioned he was Burgess.

Senior. There was a Burgess Jr. Uh, he. had a couple of sons, John Jr. and Jimmy. who were 20 and 18 respectively. And. then. >> Jimmy or wait was was Ella Williams the. senior's girlfriend. >> Yes. >> Okay. So he had a girlfriend named Ella. Williams who were also in on it and. these two numb skulls who delivered the. uh bomb named Bill Brown and Terry Hall. >> The FBI later said after they caught. Bill Brown, they described him or no, it. was from a um a report like somebody who.

witnessed the the bomb being delivered. They said one of them was a hay seed, a. real goober type. That's how they. describe Bill Brown. And it's sad for. Bill Brown and Terry Hallchuk because. they got a total of 21,100 bucks. But it. wasn't until after they were driven away. early that morning that they were told. what they' just done. They did not know. that they were delivering a bomb until. after they delivered the bomb. Isn't. that terrible? >> Yeah. I mean, they they were probably. just sold here some money. Go deliver.

this thing. That was a lot of money. >> That's That's exactly right. Yeah. and. John Burgess Jr. just totally misled. him, which is another mark against that. guy. >> All right, so spinning back a little. bit, when they hatched this plan, uh the. first thing they did was go out and get. all this dynamite, which they stole from. a power plant in California and stashed. it in their walk-in freezer in their. garage. and started building this bomb. And no. one, that's kind of one of the mysteries. of this case is it was such a.

sophisticated device and no one still. really knows. >> uh how this guy managed to build this. thing. Uh if he had help, if he was just. this bomb genius that no one knew about. or was just super smart and did his. research, but uh no one really knows how. he managed to build such a sophisticated. bomb. >> I mean, it's still not clear. I don't. think anybody will ever know. He just. did it. And what's crazy is um John. Burgess might have gotten away with the. whole thing. Uh the FBI did not they.

were not on him initially. They. interviewed something like 500 suspects. in the whole case. And um there were two. things that seemed to have brought. Burgess down. One was a hotel owner who. was uh the night manager of the hotel. that Burgess Brown and Hall stayed at. before they planted the bomb. Her name. was Nancy Dominico. and she found those. three suspicious enough that she wrote. down their license plate on their van, make, model, color, and the license.

plate number um and just kept it on file. just in case. And it turned out that. that would become really important later. on. And then the other factor was John. Burgess Jr. had a really loud mouth, it. turns out. >> Yeah. He had a girlfriend uh leading up. to the event and he would just brag all. about this thing. They break up. You. never think about the breakup side of. things. >> when you're when you're spilling your. innermost thoughts. >> Yeah. >> Uh and she has a new boyfriend, tells.

him all about this guy I dated before. you that told me all about this bomb. plot. Uh the new boyfriend calls in the. FBI tip. So now they have a couple of. tips pointing to these dudes. >> Yeah. >> Uh they track down the van that the um. Nancy Dominico had reported is shady. And it was a van that was registered to. the restaurant that Burgess Senior. allegedly had burned down. So that's. where that comes back into play. >> Yeah. So they're like, "Okay, let's go. interview John Burgess Senior." And John.

Burgess Senior says, "Oh, John Jr. was. driving the van.". >> Completely gave his son. >> immediately. >> Yeah. I mean, like, that first interview. said, and probably said, "Here's his. address." Hopefully at least called his. son to give him a heads up. I don't. know. But they went over and they. interviewed John Jr. and he said, "Yes, I was around Tahoe at the time. Yes, I. was with my van, but I was looking for. places to plant marijuana, and you know. that's true because I've just admitted.

to a crime to the FBI." Right. Right. And apparently the FBI didn't didn't. really buy it. They said like, "That. story is awful." But he stuck to it and. they didn't have anything else they. could get him on right then. But he was. definitely on their radar from that. point forward. I thought it was a pretty. good story to be put on the spot. >> personally. >> Well, well, >> it didn't work, but like to admit to. another crime, I was like, "Right, all. right, not bad.". >> I'll give you that part. The parti. the FBI was like, "You're you're. kidding, right?" He said, "The battery.

died, so I abandoned the van. Somebody. must have taken it and used it in the. crime and then brought it back while I I. was away from the van.". >> Right. Well, which is a long way of. saying wasn't wasn't me. >> Right. Exactly. >> Uh so they, you know, they do what they. do in the movies. They don't have enough. hard evidence, so they spend a year, uh. getting that evidence, building a case, >> find a montage with a great like upbeat. song where they're putting this stuff. together, right? >> Sure. I don't know why John Jr. uh and.

John Senior are still in the country. Uh. I would have been out of there so fast. Um. >> where would you go? >> I'd leave the country. >> I know. Where where'd you go? Oh, that's. a really good question. Everyone just. always talks about like who would you. have over for dinner, living or dead? Like mine would be where would you go if. you were guilty of a bombing blot? >> I mean, it's got to be a non-extradition. treaty country, right? So, you're. looking at like Venezuela. >> I'd have to do my research then, but.

yeah, I would go someplace with a beach. >> and uh and like a very quiet life. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And then they just, you know, they. eventually show up at the beach in the. movie as well. >> So, my tie out of your hands and your toes. >> Exactly. Canada has beaches. >> Sure. Lovely beaches. >> There you go. >> Not quite the beaches I was looking for, though. >> You're welcome, Chuck. >> Uh, so the FBI is getting this evidence. Uh, they have rewards. Uh, I think like. a half a million bucks is about as high.

as the reward went. And finally, about a. year later, they uh arrest John Jr. and. Jimmy. and they say they dangle a little. uh carrot in front of their faces. >> I'm so glad you said carrot. >> How would you like to uh how'd you like. to turn on dad and maybe get a little. leniency and they went that jerk? I'm. happy to. And that's what exactly what. they did, >> right? And um they turned on their dad, they arrested their dad, they arrested. Ella Williams, Bill Brown, Terry Hall,

and from what we understand, every. single person who had anything to do. with that was rounded up in one fell. swoop basically. and the conviction. started coming out. Uh Ella Williams got. seven years for her involvement and she. hasn't factored in hugely into this. podcast, but she was definitely an. accomplice. She typed the ransom notes. up. She um she did a lot. I think she. dropped some people off at like one of. the the landing sites. Like she was very. much involved. So she got seven years, but a judge later overturned her.

conviction. And I couldn't see why, but. um as far as I know, she did not do any. time in prison. maybe beyond her trial. >> Yeah, I think the Suns did get that. leniency. Uh, as for John Senior, he. represented himself in court, cross-examined his own sons, >> uh, eventually got 20 years in federal. prison, and then, I believe, life. without parole in state prison. >> Yeah. His his um the big key to his. defense was his sons had given him a.

Father's Day card that said, "You're the. best dad around 10 years before." didn't. work on the jury. >> Sorry. How could I have done this? Um, he served 16 years, died in prison of. cancer. >> Uh, but then there's one final little. potential twist here, right? >> Yeah. Um, so John Burgess had talked to. a reporter while he was alive and he. said, "You know what? This wasn't my. idea. I was a psy. I was a rube. I got. in I got dragged into this by a lone. shark I owed 60 large to." That's that's.

what you say when you're a gambler. and. um he recruited me to plant this bomb. and that really the lone shark was. working on behalf of Harvey's top. executives and the mafia who were. conspiring to blow the place up so that. they could collect the insurance money. >> Look at there. You believe it? >> Not at all. No. >> same. >> No. And the like the the the. thing that just like completely proves. it is yeah they used insurance money to.

rebuild. It's like, no, that doesn't. prove anything. Of course, you're going. to use insurance money to rebuild. It. doesn't mean there was a conspiracy. there, right? >> Is that place still there? Any idea? >> Yeah, it's still there. Um, I think it's. been updated even even more since then. But yeah, as far as I know, Harvey's is. still there. >> Awesome. I don't know why. >> over the past two weeks. I never thought. to look that up. >> Me either. I'm almost positive. We'll. have to leave it to Aaron Haggar to tell. us whether it's there or not. >> Sweet. It is. I'm looking at a picture. of it. It's definitely been updated.

>> Well, while you're online, um, why don't. you look at eBay and see if there's any. like I got bombed at Harvey's t-shirts. still around. >> Oh, wow. Well, if there are, I'm not. going to tell you. I'm just going to get. you one for Christmas. >> Fair enough. I like that a lot. That's a. good plan. Um, well, since Chuck said. what he's going to get me for Christmas, and I realized, man, I've got to figure. out what to get Chuck for Christmas, it's time for listener mail. >> Hey, you just got me a great record. Uh, which one? Oh, the Bill Evans one.

Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You like it? Have you listened to it. yet? >> I love it. I mean, a it's Bill Evans, but it's just uh. >> Yeah, it's it's good. Very evocative of. Changing of the Seasons, which I think. was the whole point. >> for sure. I'm glad you liked it. >> Um, all right. Hey guys, after listening. to the introvert extrovert episode, I. thought I'd reach out because Chuck at. one point talked about finding ways to. discipline his uh child by removing fun. activities. >> I don't remember saying that. And but I.

guess. >> Oh, you were so mad you were like. frothing at the mouth. I've never heard. you more angry. >> We don't even really do that. So, I'm. not sure if I may have been kidding or. not. Anyway, uh I'm a third grade. teacher cuz this is like a tip here. So, we got to read the tips. Uh, I'm a third. grade teacher on a reservation and with. 16 kids in my class, I have never had to. use discipline. My classroom functions. like a welloiled machine due to a type. of behavior management known in the. educational world as PBIS, positive. behaviors and supports. Uh, it's a way. to manage challenging child behavior.

solely solely through the use of using. praise and rewards. >> Wow. >> Uh, it can easily be applied in the. context of raising your own child. says, >> "Especially if you want to raise a. psychopath.". >> This is a huge topic and one that is. near and dear to my heart. I thought it. might be incredibly useful for all the. parents out there who, like Chuck, uh, struggle to find a way to manage their. child's behavior through conventional. discipline. >> Man, this guy's scoring all over you, Chuck. >> A little bit. This is Anthony. You guys.

rock. Thanks for all the wonderful. knowledge and hilarious dialogue. Uh, want to be super clear, Anthony. we. don't struggle to find a way to manage. her behavior. Uh she's she's a good kid. And not to say that kids who have. trouble behaving are bad kids at all. Uh. everyone has their challenges as kids. and parents, >> but um it it's not too bad. And I don't. know. that this PBIS would work necessarily in. my household, but hey, I mean, we.

already do that kind of thing, but I. I'll I'll ramp it up and see if that. helps. >> There you go. run an experiment, Chuck, in true SYSK fashion. >> Sure. I'm curious, though, because. Anthony didn't say if Anthony had kids. because I I will say that the way kids. behave for teachers is not at all. related to how they behave for parents a. lot of times. >> I can imagine for sure. >> So, uh yeah, I'm curious. >> Yeah, if you guys listening out there, um try this. Let us know if it works or. what. And also, Anthony, thank you very.

much for writing in, Anthony. It was. great. Um, so if you want to be like. Anthony, you can write in too to. stuffodcast@ iheartradio.com. Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iMheart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows.