SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: The Harrowing Story of the North Hollywood Shootout

This one was mentioned in our recent. episode on the militarization of the. police because the bandits who robbed a. bank in Los Angeles were so heavily. armed to the teeth that they outguned. the cops which led to police carrying. assault rifles to protect themselves. from another event like this. Except. this robbery was so off the rails, you. can kind of imagine there might not ever. be one like it again. Away we go.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and there's Jerry. and we're just a. >> Well, Jerry's not here actually now that. I mentioned it. That was just Ghost of. Habit, wasn't it? >> Ghost of Jerry. Yeah, >> she's not She's still with us, though. >> She's driving the getaway car. Yeah, she's not that kind of ghost. >> No, no, no, no, no, no. She's the kind.

of ghost that drives a getaway car, >> right? >> So, uh, I mentioned that though, Chuck, because it's apppropo of the heist. episode we're about to talk about, which. I guess this would qualify as a heist, right? >> Oh, I mean, heck yeah. >> Well, usually to me heists are a little. more intricate, most of the time. successful. Um, this is a little more. brute firepower. than than any other heist or most other.

heists. So, that's why it kind of. disqualifies it in my opinion. >> Oh, okay. >> That's my essay on heists. >> I don't even know what the definition of. heist is. >> I just gave it to you. >> Apparently, it's a robbery. So, >> yeah, sure. I mean, of course it's a. robbery, but um and this qualifies as a. robbery. It's just it's its own unique. thing for sure. >> Oh, man. Big time. And you know, as. you're reading this, it's so theatrical. It's so u just totally off the chain. nuts that this actually happened in real.

life. It's you have to remind yourself. from time to time like these were like. really really bad guys and what they. were doing was beyond reprehensible. It's just we're so trained to. >> get sucked into that kind of like action. in the movies that when it happens in. real life, you have to like kind of turn. off that entertainment part of it and. bring yourself back to reality. sometimes. At least I did. I had trouble. doing it during research a few times. >> No, for sure. Uh and we're talking about. the uh the North Hollywood shootout is.

what it's uh known a lot uh as the. battle of North Hollywood sometimes. Mhm. >> Uh and this was on February 28th in 1997. when two dudes armed to the hilt uh with. assault rifles, like anything you can. think of. And this is, as we'll see, a. time when uh and this is kind of one of. the big sort of um I guess interesting. and scary parts about this. This is when. cops like people could be more out armed.

than the police that are trying to stop. them, >> right? And that's what happened the day that. they engaged when North Hollywood became. a war zone for a little while. >> Yeah. And as a matter of fact, this. episode, this event led directly to uh. the militarization of police forces. As. we'll see, >> these two guys basically pressed that. issue because yeah, the the the Los. Angeles Police Department was outgunned, out armed, and but definitely not.

outnumbered. They they outnumbered the. robbers, but they were still getting. pinned down and they were having no luck. with anything. Well, I don't want to. give too much away. Let's just start at. the beginning because we're talking. about two dudes. 26-year-old, this is. back in 97, named Larry Eugene Phillips. Jr. There was a 30-year-old who he was. friends with named Emil Metaseranu. And even though Emil was older, uh Larry. was the one who called the shots. He was. roundly described by family members as.

um manipulative, controlling. >> Yeah. >> Um and he had Emil under his thumb. Emil. was described by his family members. later as a a follower. So even though he. was a little older, he listened to what. Emil told him to do. Not just in in. their partnership as like criminals, but. in in life, too. I read somewhere that. Emil got married because Larry told him. he should and that he he shouldn't marry. an American girl. So Neil went to. Romania and got himself a Romanian bribe. because he was a Romanian immigrant.

That that level of control is apparently. what they were engaged in. >> Yeah, totally. Um, previous to their. meeting, they met each other. Uh, they. were bodybuilders, like not. professionally, but just bodybuilding. guys at Gold's Gym in Venice Beach in. 1989. And just prior to this is when uh. Phillips started his life of crime. Um, started kind of small, I guess, like. most criminals. uh just a heist of $400 from a Sears in.

Southern California, >> right? >> And then graduated to uh burglary, real. estate fraud, stuff like that. Apparently was um sort of enamored of. like Scarface and uh ultimately the. movie Heat. So, if this shootout sounds. familiar, it sounds a lot like the one. from Heat. >> It's because they seem to have been. inspired by that movie. >> for sure. Uh but but loved not only just. the the gangsters and movies but also. the white collar criminals. He would. apparently like park in front of rich.

people's houses and just sort of. fantasize about that life and wanted. money like he you know in the end this. whole thing was about uh money and like. the thrill of it all largely because of. Phillips. >> Right. For sure. And Phillips was he. kind of had the odds stacked against him. in succeeding in in a normal. nine-to-five life because of the family. he was born into. His father um Larry. Eugene Phillips senior who would later. speak about his son in glowing terms.

after this. Um he was actually an. escapee from a prison in Colorado when. Larry Jr. was born. So Larry Jr. was. born into an alias. His last name was. false Warful. That's how he was born. >> And on his sixth birthday, apparently. the FBI came in with guns drawn to. capture his dad. >> And that helped set up what was um. referred to as basically a lifelong. hatred of the police and by extension.

the the kind of normal society the. police were charged with defending. >> Yeah. Uh, as for Mattis Serrano, he was. a Romanian immigrant. Uh, came into the. country when he was about 11 in 1977, >> was naturalized in 88. >> And his mom, um, we'll talk about her a. little bit. Her name was Valerie uh, Nicolescu. >> I think that's that definitely gets it. across. Sure. >> Nicolescu. Uh, she says that he was.

bullied when he was a kid. He became a. computer and video game nerd. He ended. up going to Devry Institute of. Technology uh when he was 19 and uh or. I'm sorry, he got his degree when he was. 19. >> Uh but his neighbors also said things. like this guy was bad news. He. threatened one of the neighbors with a. chainsaw uh because their dog came on. his property and uh their family also. had another sort of disturbing secret. Right. >> Yeah. They they they had a family. business. Uh Emil and his mom Valerie.

had a like a basically a residential. care center out of their home for people. with disabilities, usually cognitive uh. disabilities or um mental health issues. And they they were set up as a. legitimate uh care um institute. No, that's not the word. I guess a care. home. >> Yeah. >> Um the problem is is they were not a. good care home by pretty much any. standard. Um they were caught multiple.

times doing or they were accused. multiple times of mistreating the. people. Um one of their residents was. left in the hospital just kind of. abandoned ditched there. Um there was. supposedly some allegations that Emile. had been abusive toward at least one um. of the patients there. >> Uh and he was um not allowed to come. back into the house anymore, which is a. problem because this is the family. house. And eventually they got shut down. for fire codes. And it later on we'll.

see it. It even got worse after the um. the the heist happened and all the news. came out and the police and the the. press started looking into that family. and their family business. Just suffice. to say like his mom doesn't appear to. have been a very good person herself. from just based on the allegations of. how she treated the people who were. under her care. Yeah, it was pretty dis I mean this is. one of the more disturbing parts of this. whole story actually and it's kind of a. sidebar which is after the shootout uh.

they found a they searched her like a. commercial building that she owned in. Pasadena and found a 44 yearear-old. mentally disabled woman locked in a in a. room with no windows with no food or. water. And then later it turns out that. uh she was charged for that initially. which was uh I mean I guess just sort of. like a neglect charge. >> Uh she was sentenced to 10 months but. then later in 2002 I found an article in. the LA Times where because I was like.

why would she do this? Um it was social. security fraud. she was collecting. checks in her name and her and this. other woman later on uh she you know it. was it was basically welfare and social. security fraud. So she got pinched for. that in 2002. >> And if you read kind of some of the. contemporary articles from 1997 right. after the heist um she's kind of. portrayed by the press as like the. things she says about herself or her. background the press won't don't really.

take on face value. >> Yeah. like she's she said that she was a. opera singer from the state opera in. Romania who defected in 1977. and they use the words like claim. >> and when somebody's described as. claiming something about their own. personal history that's a signal from. the press that this is probably not a a. trustworthy person. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um she would also say. after this whole uh shootout went down. with her son that she was like he was.

depressed. uh his wife had left him and. taken his uh kid. >> and I basically think this was a suicide. mission for him. So whether or not that. was true, who knows? That's what G. claimed, >> right? So these are the guys who um. found each other in 1989 at Gold's Gym. and became really good friends. And one. of the things in addition to. bodybuilding that they had in common was. a real pronounced love of guns. >> Yeah. And not just any guns, high-owered.

assault rifles in particular. And. apparently um Larry Phillips had a line. somewhere on steelcased. ammunition. He could get it from Russia. >> Highly illegal, but apparently people. weren't paying attention. And I saw. there was this British National. Geographic little hourlong documentary. on this called Situation Critical, which. reminded me of that Seinfeld movie. Prognosis Negative.

>> Totally. >> Yeah. Um but they said that he he. managed to import rounds of this really. illegal like incredibly powerful um. steel lined ammunition by the thousands. of rounds. So, not only did they have. really high-powered assault rifles, they. had immeasurably higher powered um. shells to put in those assault rifles, which made them extremely dangerous. people. >> Yeah, absolutely. And as we'll see, and.

maybe we should take a break here. Okay. >> These two guys were doing a lot of. really dangerous crimeing before that 97. shootout. >> Let's Let's take that break. >> All right. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].

All right. So before we broke, I hinted. around that these guys were crimeing. around previous to the 1997 uh shootout. where everything ended, >> right? >> And that is very much true. Uh in 1993, they were pulled over in a rental car in. Glendale and cops said, "All right, well, let me take a look in the trunk.".

And they went, "Oh, you've got two 9mm. handguns, uh, two 45 handguns, two. Kalishnikovs, six smoke grenades, two. homemade bombs, three machine guns, two. bulletproof vest, one gas mask, six. holsters, wigs, ski masks, two police. radio scanners, a stopwatch, and close. to 3,000 rounds of ammo.". >> Yeah. >> And they said, "Uh, we're just going to. the shooting range, man." And you know, sometimes we like to wear wigs or ski.

masks. >> Sure. >> Or or listen to what the cops are doing. or time each other, >> right? We're big fans of the police. >> Obviously, um that all is uh you know, to an outsider. Obvious BS, but uh. shockingly, the DA said, you know, we. don't have enough evidence to convict. them of conspiracy to commit robbery. Uh, and they pled down to a misdemeanor. weapons charge and about 4 months in. county jail each. >> It gets even worse than that. That was.

1993. >> Okay. They were not only led off with. basically a slap on the wrist. What they. had in their trunk was described by. other people later on as a a bank. robbery kit. That's everything you. needed to rob a bank right there. And it. was so painfully obvious that's what. that was that but they still got note, >> right? No, there wasn't anything like. that. They hadn't gotten to that point. But the the craziest part of this whole. thing, even crazier that they only got 4.

months for these weapons. >> The DA and the judge agreed to give them. their weapons back after they got out of. jail. So, they were rearmed ostensibly. so that they could sell the weapons to. pay for their legal costs. But no one. followed up to make sure they did sell. the weapons. They just gave them back. their assault rifles and their handguns. and probably their ski masks, everything. they needed to go rob banks. And that's. exactly what they did with that stuff. >> And this was Los Angeles.

>> Yeah, >> for goodness sakes. >> I know. It's crazy. So, uh, later on, this is after the, you know, the final. shootout that we're leading up to, but, uh, later on there was obviously all. kinds of investigations and stuff, and. they learned that these two guys were in. fact, uh, what were known as the high. incident bandits. Uh, these two dudes. that robbed uh, well, it was technically. uh, it was two incidences, but three. banks cuz they hit two banks at once. Uh.

in '95 they robbed a well not a bank but. they robbed a Brinks truck in front of a. Bank of America, >> right? >> Uh in the valley and they killed a guy. They killed the driver. They opened up. fire on these dudes. >> without warning without a put your. hands. They just came out of nowhere and. just started firing on them. >> Oh yeah. Which we'll, you know, we'll. see as an obvious precedent. Uh and then. in 1996, uh they robbed two Bank of. Americas. uh one of which was the one. that they had previously robbed the. armored car in front of and killed that.

guy. >> And you know, it was the same type of. deal. They had these automatic rifles. They were, you know, screaming that. they're going to kill you. They had body. armor, ski masks, sunglasses. They took. their time as far as bank robberies go. by being in these banks for uh 6 minutes. and 8 minutes. >> That's very long, >> which is uh that's a long time for a. bank robbery. I try to get out of there. in less than three. >> Well, yeah. That's you know, that's what. everybody does. That's our goal. Uh, but. they made off. I mean, they they these. guys had a lot of money. They made off. uh with uh between 1.3 and 1.7 million.

bucks combined from this these two. heists, >> let alone whatever they got from the. Brinks robbery. >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. And they were, you. know, they were wellknown. They were the. high incident bandits. The FBI was, you. know, actively tracking them and also. had a theory that they're not alone. They're part of like a larger crime ring. or terror string that's funding them. Yeah. And not like that's not only. funding them with arms, but the the bank. robberies are meant to fund some sort of. like right-wing paramilitary group or.

terrorist organization or something. That was the point. That was the premise. they were going on because these guys. were so incredibly wellarmed. And um. just for just for context, too, $1.7. million for two bank robberies is a. eyepopping amount of money. Yeah. It's. up there in like the top probably 50 um. bank robberies of in United States. history. Like those are really big. halls. I saw at the time back in 1991,

the average bank robbery in the United. States yielded the robbers about $3,000. robbing a bank. the the the takes were. usually so poulry that it wasn't worth. the bank's money to invest in other. protections like screens that go up. really quick between the tellers and the. bank robbers. It wasn't worth them. installing those in banks because the. robbers rarely got away with more than a. few thousand. So that was a huge huge. score for almost $2 million between just.

two bank robberies for these guys. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think murder. usually occurs at those bank robberies, too. >> Supposedly, I can't remember the number. I think it was like 16 people died in. bank robberies over like I think 85 to. 95 or something like that. And 12 of. them were the bank robber. >> It it was a statistic somewhat like. that. So, yeah. Yeah. And I think 85% of. bank robbers get caught. It's a really. high risk, usually low reward. >> Yeah.

>> Um crime. But if if you do it like these. guys did, armed to the teeth and the. other reason that their yields were so. big, they scouted out the banks and they. knew when the bank was going to get some. big delivery of cash. Usually it was a. payday or something like that. That's. why their uh robberies paid off so well. They had done their homework ahead of. time. >> Yeah. And that's how they do it in the. movies. And apparently these guys were. inspired by movies. >> Yeah. I guess everybody else in real. life doesn't do it like the movies.

Yeah. So, they were, you know, they were. living kind of high on the hog for a. little while. They had a lot of money. Uh, Phillips himself, he was the one. that really sort of idolized, you know, being wealthy and all that stuff. He. like bought fancy cars. He bought. Rolexes. Uh, I think Madisono rented a. big house for his family. So, you know, I think looking at the timeline, one was. in June of 95, one was almost a year. later in 96. So, and then this uh final. one was in February 97. They weren't,

you know, they weren't doing this. It's. hard to say they were being smart about. it because they were so brazen, but it. seems like they were doing this as like, "All right, well, here's our annual. salary and then we'll go out and do it. again in about a year, >> right?" Yeah. No, they were they were it. was like their new job and their new. hobby and their new life, I guess, from. what I understand. Right. So, um, on the day of the the robbery, their third heist, February 28th, 1997, a Friday, and since it's the end of the.

month, a payday, uh, they had targeted a. Bank of America. It wasn't one they had. hit before, but for some reason, >> they hated Bank of America. >> Yeah, they really, and I kind of get. why, >> but, um, being a former Bank of America. account holder myself, >> but they, um, they hit one in North. Hollywood. It was on Laurel Canyon. Boulevard. Are you familiar with this. area? >> Oh, of course. >> Okay. So, you you knew Were you in LA at. the time? >> No, I didn't. Oh, wow. This is kind of. right before that, though. I didn't move. to LA till uh 2000.

>> Okay. >> Yeah. And North Hollywood, just for. reference, is, you know, Hollywood. Central Hollywood is kind of right in. the middle of sort of central LA. And. then just over the mountains as you go. into the valley, that's where North. Hollywood is, >> right? And that's where Hank, the. Cheshnian gangster in the HBO show. Barry, uh, is from. That's why they call. him Noho Hank. >> I need to do Barry. >> You do. It's one of those shows that.

gets insanely off the rails and yet they. still manage to make it work. It's. really good. >> I, you know, I watched a little bit of. it years ago when it first started. >> and just got distracted and never got. back around to it. But I I love everyone. in that show. >> I Yeah, I think you should you should. give it another shot. >> Yeah. All right. I'll I'll bury up soon. >> It's weird, though. It's It's um. deceptively gritty. >> Mhm. >> It's a comedy through and through, and. it's just bizarre and all that, but.

there's if you really kind of get into. like the the the violence, the meat of. it, it's it's pretty hardcore. It's it's. a crazy show. It's hard to pin down, but. it's worth seeing. >> All right, I'll follow up. So, um, Friday, February 28th, 1997, Larry. Phillips and Emil Matiseranu, um, walk. into a Bank of America and they are. covered head to toe in tactical gear, ski masks. Um, it turns out Larry.

Phillips is is covered from neck to. ankle in body armor. >> Yeah. >> That he helped he apparently sewed it. himself and it was really effective. Emil Matisanu has a um a trauma plate, basically a like a bulletproof plate uh. covering his chest and his vital organs. And um they walk in and apparently the. first thing they did was started firing. into the air from their AK-47s. >> And you would think that that would. capture the attention of the police, but.

that's a moot point cuz the police. watched them walk into the bank from the. first moment this started. Boy, I mean, you can do all the planning in the world. as a bank robber, >> but you can never count or discount bad. luck for them. Good luck for everyone. else. >> Sure. >> But literally, there was a police. cruiser that were like sitting there and. watched two guys walk into this bank. armed like this. And I'm sure they were.

like, "What the. >> and immediately called." This is at. 9:17. And they immediately called for. backup obviously. And I think once they. saw and heard the shots and everything, they all immediately knew that these. were the high incident bandits. >> Yes. And for those fans of Snoop Dogg. and Dr. Dre and Ice Cube and NWA, you're. well aware that what the police called. in was a 211, an armed robbery in. progress. That's good. >> So, um, one of the things, a little.

detail that kind of emerged later on, apparently Larry Phillips and and Emil, um, were not drug users whatsoever at in. any way, shape, or form. But apparently. they had taken phenobarbatital just. before the bank robbery to basically. calm their nerves. They were the kind of. bank robbers that you see in the movies, but that don't actually exist in real. life. These guys existed in real life. They would knock down old ladies and put. guns in their faces. They would tell. moms that if they didn't shut their kids.

up, they were going to kill their kids. They fired wildly into the air. They. fired wildly into the bank. They just. shot everything up everywhere. Um, they. were really abusive. They were really. tough. They were really scary. Um, and. they were also really on point as far as. like knowing where the money is, knowing. who would have access to the money, and. just making this whole thing work. They. had also figured out that they had about. 8 minutes before the average response. time. They hadn't noticed the cops. watching them walk in. And so they had.

timer stopwatches on during this whole. 8-minute robbery. >> Yeah. Which is what they had in the. trunk when the cops pulled them over. four years earlier. >> Yeah. >> The stopwatch. >> Yeah. Uh so yeah, I mean they had this. thing planned out, but they also didn't. know certain things like uh they asked. the bank manager to uh open up the ATMs. and he's like I I can't open the ATMs. Like I literally can't do that. So he. tried to shoot them open which did. nothing to get into the ATM but of. course it you know bullets ricocheted.

everywhere and injured the bank manager. Uh they also, you know, would shoot, I. think one of them, Phillips, wasn't it, who literally shot into a safe uh and. like shot up a lot of the money that. they could have gotten, ruining that. >> Out of anger, they learned that the the. um Brinks truck that was supposed to be. delivering hundreds and hundreds about. threequarters of a million dollars by. their estimate um was running late or. had been rescheduled to throw off bank. robberies. And out of anger, Emil just.

shot into a safe and and basically just. ruined a bunch of cash that they could. have taken. >> Yeah. Uh there was also a cell phone on. the scene, which is not the most common. thing in 1997 for sure. Uh but it was LA. and they locked a bunch of the uh there. were about, you know, 30 bystanders or, you know, just people doing bank. business. They se they separated them. out from the tellers and put them in a. vault and shut the door. And one of the.

uh I believe one of the women inside had. a cell phone, >> right? >> And I'm not sure how much it helped, but. she was at least able to be in touch uh. with the cops sort of describing what. she was hearing while all this was going. on. >> Right. This is at a time before people. knew what LOL meant. And one of the cops. she was texting with was like, "lol". meaning lots of love. But she didn't. take it that way. >> Lots of love. >> Mhm. I thought it was laugh out loud, >> right? That's what it means. The cop. didn't know that. He thought he was.

saying like, "Hang in there, lol.". >> I got you. I got you. Okay. I missed I'm. a little uh sick today. >> That's all right. I stole that joke from. Family Guy anyway. >> Uh in the end though, they did get a, you know, a pretty good take. They got. about $300,000. worth of cash and then uh I guess we. should probably take a break here, but. then they exited the bank and all H. double hockey sticks broke loose. Yeah. [Applause].

[Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. Okay, Chuck, it's about 9:25, I believe.

8 minutes has passed. their timers going. off on their stopwatches and Emil. Matiseranu and Larry Phillips are now. planning on leaving the bank. They have. a duffel bag with about 300 grand in. cash and supposedly right when they walk. out the door, the die packs in the bag. go off and completely ruin the cash. >> So, the cash that they thought was going. to be there wasn't there. The cash that. they did get was now completely ruined. forever because of the die packs. And um. they come out and realize that the cops.

have them surrounded. That this 8-minute. response time thing doesn't count when. the cops watch you walk into the bank. with ski masks and AK-47s. >> Yeah. Like what kind of surrounded are. we talking about here? >> We're talking about surrounded on every. side with police helicopters hovering. overhead. That's what they walked out of. the bank into. >> Yeah. Uh, in the end there would be more. than 300 cops from five different. agencies that were engaged in this. shootout. So, 300 against two. Uh, that.

gives you a little insight into just how. much more heavily armed these guys were. that it lasted this long. >> But they walked out to that scene and. immediately turned North Hollywood into. a war zone. Um, I' I've watched a lot of. video of this stuff and this is one of. the remarkable things is a lot of this. stuff is on video. You know, LA is. notorious for, you know, anytime. something like this is happening there. There's six helicopters, news. helicopters overhead,

>> like within minutes just kind of live. streaming uh or I guess you wouldn't. have called it live streaming then. What. would you just say? >> Broadcasting. >> Live broadcasting. There you go. Oh man, it's been so long. >> You're so 2020s. >> I am. Uh so yeah, live broadcasting this. thing from above. So you can watch a lot. of this take place. Uh which is. horrifying, but again, if you've seen. enough movies, you're like, "Yeah, it. looks like a lot of movies I've seen.". Um but a lot of the interviews that you. know since then that have happened with. cops that were there and taking place.

basically said like these guys just came. out and started shooting at everything. that moved. citizens, cars, buildings, uh, police cars at the times, uh, at the. time didn't have Kevlar sighting in. their doors and stuff. So, like hiding. inside a police car was no good. Hiding. behind a police car was better cuz a. bullet going all the way through it at. least is going to, you know, ricochet. around and probably not go like straight. into you. >> Um, but, you know, they were, it was all. of a sudden it was like Vietnam out.

there in North Hollywood. >> So, here's the thing. when the cops had. them surrounded and were waiting for. them to come out. Um, number one, in the. cop's mind, they had no idea if the. whole place inside had just been. massacred because most most robbers. don't walk in and start shooting into. the air. Again, that's movie stuff that. these guys were influenced by. So, they. heard like like I think 50 rounds of. automatic rifle fire in the bank while. they were waiting for these guys to come. out and they didn't know if everyone. inside was just completely killed. That.

was number one. But number two, the cops. also presumed based on experience and. history um that when these guys came out. and saw they were surrounded not just by. cops and cop cars but also helicopters. that they would just you know put their. guns down and put their hands up. So. they were surprised at the response that. these two guys took on just even just. this first initial wave of dozens of. cops. Um, and then they were further. surprised when the guy's bullets started. going right through any Kevlar vests,

started going right through their police. cars, started going through buildings, through concrete buildings. There was a. concrete locksmith, like kind of like a. photo mat in the parking lot that they. were taking shelter behind. The bullets. were going through them. This was it. just suddenly turned completely 180. degrees from their expectations. And. then even worse than that, they were. finding their own guns were having. basically just pinging. The bullets were. pinging off of these guys because they. were wearing so much body armor. So this.

is about the moment almost immediately. out of the gate when the cops were like, "This is nothing like anything we've. ever experienced before. And we are. outgunned right now.". >> Yeah. And this sounds unbelievable, but. it's true. It was so bad right away that. the cops realized that and said, "If. there's any available units, go to the. gun store down the street and get. everything you can." Like, they. literally went to a gun store to to. rearm or you know, I guess uh.

>> what would you call it when you. >> re to ar raise your armament, I guess. So, they leveled up on their guns and uh. they did get guns apparently according. to like um recovered ammunition and. stuff. they didn't actually end up using. those in the firefight cuz I guess you. know the whole thing didn't last that. long and I'm sure it took a while to, you know, talk the store owner into. giving up these guns and getting the. matching ammunition and all that. >> But they sent for for backup for. themselves by going to a gun store,

which is just crazy to think about. Uh, and they were like, "We need the SWAT. team. This is uh we're police cruiser. guys and that we have revolvers or 9. millimeters and this ain't happening.". SWAT team is downtown. Took him about 18. minutes to get there. >> And they got there though. They finally. showed up and uh apparently it was such. a quick sort of uh let's get there quick. thing that one of the SWAT officers was. about to go on a jog and he shows up in. like jogging shorts. >> Yeah. If you watch like the footage of.

the um of them taking Maseranu, he's the. first one to him and it's kind of silly. looking to be honest. >> Yeah. But um so yeah, this first wave of. cops that they encountered, I don't know. how many cruisers there were, but let's. say there's probably six and maybe a. dozen or so cops. There were also two um. two uh bystanders who got caught in the. crossfire, both of whom ended up getting. shot by those ricochet bullets going. through cop cars that they were hiding. behind. >> Um cops were getting shot like through.

their Kevlar vests. I think a number of. cops were injured and even worse, they. were pinned down. They were in what's. called the kill zone. Like these guys. were very easily able to shoot any of. these people who were fairly close to. them. And so these these cops had to. basically retreat um or be pinned down. And some of them were pinned down. because they were shot. So if you if you. kind of watch some of the footage or you. um you know read about it that that kind. of gets left out and that was something.

I thought that the uh situation critical. documentary really kind of drove home. like there were there were some people. who were in grave grave danger in the. first like 10 15 minutes of this. firefight before backup arrived. Um, and. I also saw it described that um, Phillips and and Matiseranu at one. point, especially when they were engaged. with that first wave of cops who were. totally un unprepared and unequipped to. deal with them that they could have made.

a getaway and that they seem to have. decided that they were wanted to stay. and fight instead. >> Yeah, >> that's unusual. >> And I'm curious about the wisdom of. that. Like if they had left if these guys just. would have went and got in their car and. tried to get out of there. >> I don't know. Who knows? I mean I I. don't know. The fact that they had a. helicopter on them would have made it. pretty difficult, but who knows? It. could have been way worse. It could have. been shorter. Who knows what could have. happened. But the I think the point was.

that they. >> like bank robbers don't try to stick. around when they're given the option to. try to make a run for it. And these guys. did. >> Yeah. I'm not going to Monday morning. quarterback this thing years later in my. podcast booth. uh because I wasn't the one, you know, getting shot at on the street. So, uh. there was one uh citizen hero among this. crowd which was a dentist, Dr. Jorge. Montes. >> had a office across the street and two. cops that were injured like crawled up.

the stairs to his office and he it. sounds like he saved at least one of. their lives. He treated them immediately. and one of the cops had uh shrapnel in. his ankle and um Montes was smart enough. to be like, "We should leave that in. there." Like, "I'll treat you, but I'm. not taking that out cuz it could get. worse." And that officer later said that. he probably saved my life cuz I probably. would have bled out. >> Yeah, that's pretty great. Um so, a few. minutes before 10:00, this firefight has. been going on for 30 30 plus minutes.

now. Okay. Um, Phillips and Matiseranu. um decide that this is a really fateful. decision and no one has any idea why. Probably will never know why, but. Matisanu gets in their white Chevy. Celebrity, the ugliest getaway car ever. >> Um, oh, there's one other thing about. that white Chevy Celebrity. They had it. backed up to the bank in a parking. space. And so when they came out and. they were shooting at the cops and. everybody that that moved for 30 minutes.

with their assault weapons, um whenever. their assault rifle would like run out. of ammo or jam or something, they just. throw it down, go to the trunk of the. car and come back with a brand new. assault rifle and they had like drums, like 100 round drums as clips. So they. were really doing a lot of damage. And. at some point they decided, let's head. out. Mattisanu gets in the Chevy. Celebrity and um rather than get in with. him, uh Larry Phillips decides to walk.

alongside just firing at everybody while. Mattisanu slowly drives with him. And. then the really fateful decision is made. where they decide to split up and Larry. Phillips peels off from Matisanu and. starts walking down the sidewalk of a. street, a side street that. >> a residential street. >> into a residential area. Yeah. Yeah. It's I you know I think I read a lot. about this too. I think he might have. thought he was providing some initial. cover and the whole split up thing is.

just you know judging from the movies I. think sometimes that's just what they. decide to do like you know instead of. concentrating everything on us if we. split up that'll that'll split the you. know the burden or whatever. >> Yeah. I mean I get that. I also I based. on how quickly things happened after. that. It also makes me wonder if he was. like, I'm just going to go take my last. stand. >> Well, maybe. I mean, who knows? We're. never going to know, basically, and. you'll soon find out why. Uh, so in the. end, Phillips was uh shot 11 times. He's.

walking down this side street. >> Yeah. He's still walking after some of. these most of these shots. >> Yeah. He's walking down the side street. He's firing at everything he can. And he. gets just like in the movies, like an. old western or something. a cop shoots. his hand, like shoots the gun out of his. hand by shooting his hand, >> he reaches down, picks it up, puts it. under his chin, and in an attempt to. kill himself, and uh pulls the trigger,

and you know, it's it was sort of a bang. bang thing. No one sure which was the. kill shot, but sort of right along that. time at either right when it happened or. right after he fell, a cop had shot him. uh true romance style through the side. of his body where there was no uh. protection, no protective vest. >> cuz that stuff is usually like it's on. your back, it's on your chest, but kind. of not through the side. And he severed. his spine and he was dead immediately. from one of the two wounds. So, um,

Larry Phillips is now dead one way or. another, either by his own hand or by. the cops, um, shot. Uh, and that is not. the end of things because Mattisanu is. still on the move. He's in his white. celebrity, um, moving down the street. past where Phillips has just died. Um, and here's here's what's crazy because. as we'll see, the LAPD is very much. fedded after this for having saved North. Hollywood, taken on these guys who.

outguned them. Um, but there's a really. critical point that I think people just. move right past. When they were moving. up Archwood, this residential street, it. was not closed off. So people were. driving past Emil Matiseranu. within feet, like a handful of feet of. this guy, and they were confused. They. didn't know what was going on. And he's. strapped with like this AK driving the. white celebrity, which now has his tire. shut out, looking for another car, and. at least three or four pass him uh.

before he finally stops and picks one. and starts shooting at the car. And that. was a huge, huge failure on the LAPD's. part because those guys could have gone. anywhere on Archwood Street and started. taking hostages easily. >> What was the failure? >> That they didn't close the street off. Like I don't understand how you could. >> I don't think they had time. >> Bank robbery. You could close it off. somewhere back there. There was through. traffic still coming down Archwood like. right by the bank if you watch it. It's. crazy that that's.

>> No, I know. I I I just don't I don't. know, man. I think that's also Monday. morning quarterbacking. I don't know if. they could have. They were in the middle. of a a shootout. I just I don't know. >> I mean, the whole LAPD was focused on. this shootout. I feel like they could. have shut the street down. It's just. crazy to me. >> All right. Agree to disagree. At any. rate, he's firing at cars. He gets in. this guy's uh Jeep pickup truck. >> and the guy got injured. He was fine. He. ran out of there and, you know, got away. at least. And he starts, you know, he.

still thinks he can get out of there. I. guess he's transferring weapons from. that Chevy to the truck. >> and three SWAT guys drive over there. Uh. he comes out again and all of a sudden. there's another shootout on the street. movie style with both of them kind of. crouch behind these cars. >> and the cops do a very smart thing which. is shoot underneath the car at his feet, at his legs, whatever they can hit and. they end up hitting him 28 times and. dropped him. >> Yeah, man. Can you imagine taking 28.

shots in your legs and feet? >> I can't imagine one. >> He put his hands up. He he he gave up. He surrendered. Um and was laying behind. the celebrity. Uh I think in the end. when they when they captured him, 12. officers had been injured, had been. shot. Some were in in pretty bad shape. Miraculously, all survived. Eight. bystanders have been injured. All of. them survived. Everyone in the bank. survived. And it turned out that the. only two people who didn't survive were.

Larry Phillips and Emil Matiseranu who. ended up bleeding to death from his. injuries lying in behind that Chevy. celebrity. Isn't that nuts, Chuck? I. think. >> 17 or 1,800 rounds were fired in this. 44minute firefight and only two people. died. The the bank robbers. >> Yeah. And that became a matter of uh. just sort of further scrutiny because. Mattis Serrano, you know, he's laying. there, he's bleeding and he says, you.

know, why don't you put a bullet through. my head and when the EMTs show up, the. cops keep them away. They said, don't. come over here. EMTs never examined him, examined him. And he slowly uh bled out. basically over the next hour and died. Uh they were, you know, heavily. scrutinized. I think there was an. attorney that ended up filing a suit on. behalf of the kids uh that said, "Hey, you know, regardless of whether this guy. was a bank robber, you can't, you know,

you still have an obligation to treat an. injured human on the ground as a cop.". The cop's response was like, "We didn't. know if there were other people. involved, if they were around, if they. had a sniper, if they had explosives on. their body. We didn't want to put those. EMTs in danger." And in the end, uh, they dropped, I'm sorry, it was a. deadlock jury at first. Uh, so it was a. mistrial and then they decided not to go. further with another case cuz they might. be counter sued for malicious. prosecution.

>> Well put. Did you read the LA Times. article on that? >> Oh, yeah. >> They really went to town putting this. thing together and no one came out. looking okay, you know. >> No. And it was, you know, the LA PD has. always had a checkered reputation. So, like at first they were heroes cuz this. was all over the news and this was, you. know, a handful of years after Rodney. King when they had probably an all-time. low uh opinion rating. So, they were. like, "Look, look at the cops like. protecting you and and putting their.

lives at risk." So, it was good for PR. at first, but then this they let him. bleed out in the street for an hour. I'm. sure a lot of people were like, "Good.". And a lot of people are like, "Yeah, you. still can't do that." Sure. So, um, one. of the other outcomes of this was that. it changed police forces across the. United States forever. Like the the. police realized that they were not. equipped for something like this to. happen in not only Los Angeles, but. every other town in the United States.

And in the defense uh spending act I. think of 1997. they passed a section called um 1033. that said that the department of defense. can sell any excess um armory weapons. material what to local police. departments now that's a new thing and. it turned into what's been roundly. considered the militarization of the. police that's had all sorts of knock-on. effects including according to multiple.

studies um an increase in death during. police shootings. And that's a big. criticism of this, that rather than. people saying, "Let's reduce the. public's access to things like assault. rifles. >> that can kill tons of people and have. firefights like this," instead, the push. has been to let's arm the cops equally. to these these um criminals that can be. armed to the teeth as well um to make it. even, which there's a logic to it, sure,

but you could also reduce the public's. access to those kind of things as Wow. And that didn't really happen. >> Well, one of the good things that came. out of it was PTSD. uh counseling for police officers was. not such a big thing at the time and. after this it became much more uh just. sort of implemented across the country. >> Yeah, that is a good thing for sure. Anything else? >> I got nothing else. >> I think there's a the in Grand Theft. Auto 5, one of the heists, the Paltto. score is based on this too.

And there's a movie called 44 Minutes. that was made for TV on FX and it's. terrible. >> I bet. >> Um, if you want to know anything else. about the North Hollywood Shootout, there's plenty to see and read about. that. Um, and while you're reading and. seeing about the North Hollywood. Shootout, I think it's time for listener. mail. I'm going to call this uh followup that. I feel pretty bad about. Uh we did our.

podcast episode on Kenton Grua uh Grand. Canyon River adventurer not too long ago. and we actually heard from his uh wife. Michelle Grua who was uh she's not a. stuff you should know listener but. someone told her about it. She listened. and she wanted to clear up some things. uh and so I'm going to read it. Uh it's. a little lengthy but I feel like we owe. it to her. Uh hey guys uh I was. surprised to be informed by a friend of. your podcast about my late husband. factor. Uh yes, our children and I all.

called him factor. That was his. preferred name. I appreciate that you. obtained most of your information from. Kevin's book, uh the Emerald Mile, which. is for the most part accurate. There are. some things that you said that are not. accurate and uh depictions of factor. that I'd like to set straight. Uh these. things are likely only important to me, our children, and to his two brothers, uh if they were to ever hear your. podcast. I can tell that you appreciated. his adventurous spirit and the. grandiosity of the things he did, but I. would gently suggest that you might. consider the feelings of those left. behind with regard to the way you depict.

someone. Uh he's not just some character. and a really cool story. He's someone's. husband, father, and brother who is. sorely missed. I do not expect any kind. of retraction uh public retraction. I. just wanted to let you know about the. inaccuracy. uh so you could have a more clear. picture of him. He was the most humble, gracious, generous, respectful, considerate, fear soul I've ever met. Truly one of a kind and the greatest. factor in my life. Uh, regarding the. description of him really liking booze, uh, and hiking out to obtain extra.

liquor, the passengers on that. particular commercial trip are the ones. who requested extra booze. And given. that there's no delivery into the. canyon, he offered to hike out and. procure a resupply for them. Uh, regarding the moccasins, he was a purist. and his reasoning was that the ancient. Pueblins who'd lived in the canyon had. likely worn moccasins and he wanted to. pay homage to them and not have any. unfair modern advantage like hiking. boots. Uh, he had scouted the route. before and the first through hike. attempt had uh he had placed food caches.

uh caches caches caches. >> for that hike. as well as doing so the. second time as an insight to his. character. He hiked back in to remove. all of them after the hike leaving no. trace. You said that he was obsessed, if. you can say that about someone who. smokes that much pot. Uh I feel like you. may have missed a key element of. Kinton's character and you're reading. about him, that he had a fierce. intellect, an intense focus, and once he. got a hold of an idea, he ruminated on. it, turned it over and over in his mind.

until he worked out all the details. not. consistent with the sleepy image you. conjure up when thinking about a typical. stoner. It also bears mentioning that. the original idea was wrists. Uh Wally, Rudy, and Kitten did the original speed. one, but Wall-ally was no longer working. on the river in ' 83 and thus not able. to partake this time around. Uh Kitten. came up with the idea uh to put a second. set of orlocks on the boat so you could. have two rowing stations to tackle the. flat water at the far west of the. canyon. As far as the fine, uh, the fine.

that was imposed is reportedly $500, but. I have the cancel check to the Cook. Chino County magistrate in the amount of. $250 paid by Kenton. So, so your. assertion that uh, he couldn't afford it. is not accurate. Uh, he never mentioned. any imposition of community service to. me as well. Uh, and we are also quite. sure of how he died. He died uh not due. collision or impact but from the. spontaneous aortic uh dissection uh not.

an aneurysm. He was found unresponsive. on the trail by a hiker while the kids. and I were home awaiting his return. He. was not dead when the hiker found him. Uh he was taken to the local hospital. where resuscitation efforts failed. He. wasn't laying in a peaceful position. The hiker said he was still a stride as. bike and it appeared that he had just. tipped over. Uh indeed he had a little. cut over his ear where his sunglasses. dug into the side of his head when he. landed. Uh as a physician myself, I can. tell you he was probably in significant. chest pain. Uh and he died about 200 yd.

after passing through what would have. been a busy trail head parking area. So. he was probably pedalling like hell to. get home just a couple of miles away, but dissected and lost consciousness. less than a minute after passing through. the lot. I only discovered it when he. was 2 hours late getting home from the. ride and called the hospital where I. worked to see if they had any mountain. bikers that had come in. They said yes, but they weren't able to identify him. And that was the last moment of true. peace that I had. I am glad you found.

his story so compelling. I'm sure he's. glad people are hearing of it and he. doesn't have to do the telling himself, but accur accuracy is important. Please. don't paint him as a caricature. uh best. uh Michelle Grua and I emailed her a. very long email back and I felt terrible. about all this and she was very sweet. and much more uh graceful than I would. have been in her position. So. >> yeah, I was going to say I mean if if. you're going to get taken to task by a. living relative of someone we profile, it's about as as nice as it can get for.

sure. >> Yeah. So thank you Michelle for that and. just publicly I'm sorry for anything we. did that caused you any upset. >> Yeah, agreed. It was definitely not our. intent to to create a caricature out of. him. That's never our intent. So, sorry. that that happened inadvertently. And. thank you for taking the time to write. all that. And thank you, Chuck, for. reading all of it. >> Certainly. >> Uh, if you want to get in touch with us. like Michelle Grua did, uh, you can use. email as she did as well, send it off to. stuffodcast at iheartradio.com.

>> Stuff you should know is a production of. iheartradio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].