SYSK’s Fall True Crime Playlist: The Chowchilla Bus Kidnapping | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. Back in 1976 in Chailla, a little town. smack dab in the middle of California, a. school bus with 26 children aboard was. hijacked and the kids were held for. ransom by men looking to make easy. money. But man, was this anything but. easy for everyone involved. What makes. this case so famous, in addition to, you. know, the kidnapping of 26 children on. their way home from school, is that the. kids and the bus driver were buried. alive while the kidnappers waited for. the ransom. Why don't you join them by.

listening to this episode? >> Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant and Jerry's here. And this is uh. stuff you should know. >> You know what? I've been singing for two. days. The wheels on the bus go round and.

round. >> No, that's pretty good guess though. >> What? Chowchilla. >> I can't get it out of my head. The. Godzilla song. Now all I'm saying over. and over is Chowchilla. >> That's a great song. Do you remember who. played it? >> Was that like Edgar Winner or Johnny. Winner? >> I don't know. >> I think it was one of the winners. >> Okay, >> that's my guess. >> Okay. The Long Winters. >> Definitely not The Long Winters.

>> Okay. Um, so Chuck, uh, we're talking about a. piece of Americana true crime history. that I had no idea about actually. And, um, I I noted though because of the. timing and because of the location, I. hit up my um, beloved uh, former hippie. aunt who lived in San Francisco at the. time and was raising kids and said, "Do. you remember this?" She said, "Oh, yes. I remember this big time." like that. >> she had kids that were about to be bus. riding age and she was not very um.

comfortable with this this whole jam. >> Yeah, it it provided discomfort. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, >> that's one way to put it. >> So, did you even say what the name of it. was? >> No. Um it's the Chowilla school bus. kidnapping is what people usually refer. to it as. >> Right. And I think this was a listener. who sent this in and I apologize because. I usually make note of that so I can. shout them out but I did not do so in. this case.

>> So I missed I know boohiss. Uh but yeah, this was in 1976 and uh still stands. according to the sources I saw. >> as the largest domestic kidnapping in US. history. >> So my aunt says. >> Oh yeah. No, she didn't. She also said. she was not very into it. >> Right. I was not very comfortable by. that. It. >> was very disappointing. >> Um yeah, the largest mass kidnapping for. ransom. I'm not sure why that's a. qualifier,

but it is. >> but um yeah, I saw the same thing too. that it still stands. Um and it was like. the idea that the most of anything. happened to this little town of Chowilla. in the Sanwaqin Valley about 150 miles. southeast of San Francisco. um in and of. itself is significant, but it was a. really terrible like most of event that. happened to this poor little town as. we'll see. >> All right. So, should we just start on.

July 15th, 1976? >> Yes. >> All right. We'll paint a picture for. you. Uh you already mentioned where it. was between Fresno and San Francisco. >> out in a part of California that had. some very, very small towns at the time. And it's hard to imagine anywhere in. California having 4,600 people living. there, but uh that was the case in the. mid70s in Chailla. And it was the next. to the last day of summer school. And a. bus was being driven after a because it. was summer school, a little fun day trip.

to a swimming pool. Uh driven by. 55-year-old Ed Ray. >> Yeah. Who was a farmer there in Chao. Chill himself. Apparently, he bailed hay. like nobody's business. That's what I he. was married to a woman named Odessa who. was a bank teller at the Bank of America. and he was apparently quite happy being. a farmer and then driving kids around on. the school bus because even after this. he continued on for another dozen years. as the school bus driver. >> That's right. Uh he had only dropped off. a few kids at this point and there were.

19 girls and seven boys on board from 5. to 14. And uh notably um the 14-year-old. because he will factor in pretty heavily. here. >> Yeah. >> Uh his name was Mike Marshall. Uh he. wasn't even supposed to be on that bus. >> He usually got picked up by his mom, but. he got busted the night before with some. beer. And his mom said, "Your. punishment, you got to ride that school. bus home.". >> Yep. >> Tomorrow. And after school or after the. the trip, apparently he was like, "I.

don't even know what bus to take. >> because I don't do this." but he knew. who Ry was and so he went to Ed Ray and. said hey man will you I don't know if. this is my bus or not but will you take. me home and Ed Ray is Ed Ray so he went. sure off the board. >> so um. >> thank goodness he said that. >> yeah so after that that third stop there. were 26 kids and Ed Ray on board and Ed. Ray was continuing along his route and. he turned on to a street called Avenue. 21. and as he turned on to Avenue 21 Edray.

found that there was a a white van. blocking the road. And apparently he. started to go around it and then I guess. thought the better of it and wanted to. stop and see if they needed any help. instead. And when he did, he realized. very quickly that he was actually being. hijacked. Because when you see a man. with a long gun and panty hose on his. head, um you're probably being hijacked. >> That's right. >> Uh the first thing he saw was this one. guy who said, "Open the door." And then.

uh he realized there were a couple of. other guys, same ammo. I think they had. shotguns uh with the panty hose. And. they said, "Get in the back. Uh we'll. take over the driving from here.". >> And if you watch the movie, did you see. any of that? >> No. No, I haven't yet. >> We'll get to it then. There's a there's. a Lifetime movie that came out in the. '9s. Mhm. >> Uh I think 93 looks like it was made in. ' 83 somehow. That is on YouTube and I I.

highly recommend scrubbing through it. >> Okay. >> Uh I wouldn't say watch the whole thing. cuz I don't know if you'll be able to, but Carl Malden. >> Yeah. >> played Dead Ed Ray and uh I don't know. if it's true to the story, but he gave. them a lot of guff about getting out of. that driver's seat in the movie. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. I'm not sure if that happened in. real life or not. It's a molden improv. if I've ever heard one. >> Yeah. >> Yes. And I'm not getting out of my seat. >> Right. My feet hurt.

>> So, uh he eventually did though and they. drove um they drove that bus followed by. the van uh for a bit and then eventually. transferred those kids to that van and. another identical van. Um, and you know, they I think we should point out a few. smart things these guys did. >> along the way because they mainly did. dumb things. Uh, but the kidnappers did. make them jump from the school bus to. the van so they wouldn't leave. footprints. >> Yeah.

>> And in these vans, they had all the kids. and Ed Ray in the vans now, two vans. Um, and they had kind of like decked. these vans out. Um, it was kind of a. shoddy manner of adding plywood. partitions to keep the kids from getting. out, from anybody being able to see. And. I think they painted over the windows. And then they drove those kids around. for 11 hours in the backs of those vans. with no potty breaks, no food, no water,

no nothing. They just drove them around. for 11 hours in July, the middle of July. in the Sanwaqin Valley. um pretty. mercilessly before finally arriving at. the destination which ultimately was. only a hundred miles away from where the. kids had been uh kidnapped. I think they. just wanted to disorient the kids. >> Yeah. I think that was kind of sworn. >> Mhm. >> As well cuz they could have been, you. know, 11 hours away if they managed to. escape or something. Right. Uh, one of. the girls years later did say that she.

saw through a crack that they were up. there with the AC going, drinking sodas. >> and having a good old time and the kids. and Ed Ray are back there just. suffering. >> Um, just terrified obviously of what's. going on. >> Right. That was Jennifer Brown Hyde who. said that and she has not she's not very. happy with this whole thing. It's still. to this day from what I understand. >> Yeah, as you could imagine. So, um, finally at 3:30 a.m. on Friday morning, they were hijacked around after 3:30 on.

3:30 p.m. on Thursday. They finally. stopped driving at 3:30 in the morning, Friday morning. Um, and they arrive at a. rock quarry. They're in Liverour, California. Apparently, again, it's 100. miles away from Chailla. And um this is. the uh what the what the uh kidnappers. see as the the final destination for. these kids until they're ransomed off uh. until the authorities cough up the. money. And what they what they've done. is bury a moving van line trailer. So. like a huge moving truck, the trailer.

part of it, they buried it a total of 12. feet underground. Um and have covered it. with four feet of dirt. And they've. opened a hole, put a ladder in, and told. the kids, "Get down there." And Ed Ray, too. >> That's right. And as the kids were going. down, and this kind of points to the. direction of how dumb these guys were. and how unprepared they were, even. though they, it turns out, would have. planned this thing for well over a year. They wrote down their names uh and their. phone numbers and contact and parents'.

names not on a clipboard legal pad uh. but on the back of a Jack in the Box. wrapper. Right. So uh and then they took. apparently some kind of piece of. clothing from each kid because the idea. was once again is that they have many. many kids that should bring many many. monies and dollar bills their way. >> Exactly. And the fact that they're kids. means that people do anything to to keep. them safe. So, sure, >> these guys figure they've got a pretty. good payday with 26 kids that they're.

now holding hostage in a buried moving. van trailer. >> Um, and in in the trailer, they had done. a little more than they had in the van. So, they had peanut butter, Cheerios, some bread down there, some water, but. definitely not enough to keep all those. people alive for a very long time. They'd also thought of um bathrooms. They made bathrooms in the wheel wells. and they uh they dropped ventilation. tubes with some fans to force air in. into the um into the van. So, there was.

fresh air down there. Um but not a lot. from what I understand. >> Yeah, that's right. And the one uh. faithful mistake they made was that for. their comfort, they included some uh old. box springsings and mattresses and stuff. for them for them to sit on and lay on. >> Uh which would end up being their. undoing. Should we take a break? >> I think we should because now you've got. 26 kids buried in a buried trailer right. now in Liverour, California at 3:30 in. the morning. Not a good thing to happen.

>> That's right. So, we'll pick up with. what's going on in Chachilla right after. this. All. [Music].

[Music]. right. So, in Chaochilla, that bus. doesn't come back. So, obviously, everyone freaks out pretty quickly. Yeah. >> Uh, an entire school bus full of kids. and a very trusted uh man about town. Like, people knew, you know, it's a. small town. People knew Ed Ray.

>> and he was a good guy by all accounts. Um, they were all missing. So, uh, the. very first thing that happens is they. locate the school bus, which had been. hidden um in some with some bamboo and. camouflage. But they did find the bus. right away, which, you know, on one hand. that's good because they have a lead. On. the other hand, that just sends this. thing into the stratosphere as far as. panic goes. >> Sure. >> Because where are these kids? >> Yeah. And I saw also that the bus had. basically no clues on it whatsoever. So. it's like we found the bus, but that.

doesn't help at all. Um so yeah, I'm. sure they were panicked by that. So, um, it became pretty clear pretty early on. that the the Chowilla sheriff, a guy. named Ed Gates, was going to need some. help. So, the FBI came to town. Apparently, they booked every one of the. um hotel rooms in the two hotels in. town. Um, they brought uh like all the. state law enforcement agencies. Like, everybody just converged on this town to.

help out because it made national news. like almost instantaneously. Um I saw somewhere Chuck that like this. is during the bicesentennial and the. bsentennial just been going on and going. on and going on and there was still. bsentennial stuff going on and this. stopped it like this kidnapping news of. this kidnapping stopped the. bicesentennial celebration dead in its. tracks. It was the end of it not just. for this town but for the whole country. >> Oh yeah. I mean this went right up to. President Ford uh at the time and. obviously Governor Jerry Brown. So they.

they threw everything they could at it. Um the media descended upon Chowchilla. like super fast. >> and because it's the media you start. getting these these terrible stories. about like well maybe cuz you know. they'd never caught Zodiac and this was. just six or seven years I think after. the final uh what would end up being the. final killing. So they said maybe it was. a Zodiac because they made reference to. wiping uh he made reference to wiping. out a school bus at one point. >> Um any tip that came in they had to.

follow. There's a chew on the side of. the road. So, they have to track down. that tip. >> Um, there was a mo a novel in 1958. called The Day the Children Vanished. where the the gang of people abduct a. busload of kids just to bring people out. of town and distract them while they. robbed a bank. >> Yeah. >> Ray's wife worked at the bank like you. said, so they put a bank under. surveillance. Uh, so there were, you. know, it was I don't know if I would. describe it as a panic because the FBI. was on the scene in the state uh uh. California bureau investigation. So,

they were doing good work, but there was. a frenzy of activity. >> Yeah. And I I think the sheriff had all. the help he possibly needed to chase. down all these leads and everything, but. from what I saw, there was just not much. to go on. There were they they were just. dead ends left and right. Um, and so. like there was there was a a just an. enormous amount of panic and terror in. the town. Families started converging on. the firehouse, the local firehouse for. some reason. I'm not sure why, but it.

became like the the meeting place for. anybody concerned about the fate of the. kids and um this is where news would. first be broken and I think the media. probably hung around there too. So, um, you can only begin to imagine how. anxious the parents were and then the. town and then apparently the whole. country was was anxious as well. Um, and. so it was really kind of surprising when. all of a sudden um at about uh I think. about 8:00 p.m. the next night, Saturday.

night, so the kids have been gone for. almost. uh. about. >> carry the one. >> about 30 hours, 32 hours, something like. that at this point. Uh-huh. >> 32 hours of terror when all of a sudden. at that quarry, some people are working. and a man and a bunch of kids run over. and it turns out to be the the. kidnapping victims who just present. themselves to a security guard at the uh. at the quarry in Liverour who gets on. the phone and says, "We found them.".

>> That's right. Amazing. And you would. think, well, pretty sensational story, but it was very short span of time and. all the kids were fine, so why is it. really a story? It's a story because uh. as we'll see, the trauma that they. suffered emotionally and um how it went. down and who these people were who. kidnapped them. >> But before we get to those dum dums, um. >> let's talk about the escape. Uh they. were down there about 12 hours and. running out of food and water. um the.

roof, you know, they had a lot of weight. on this moving van roof and those things. aren't. >> super strong. So, this thing was, you. know, kind of dented in and it seemed. like it might cave in. And they were. worried that they just couldn't stay. there basically. And this is where the. story, I mean, I guess we'll cover both points. of view. Um, the immediate history and. aftermath, uh, Ed Ray saved the day. because he was the only adult there. So, obviously, he was the one that broke. those kids out of there. Um, years. later, you know, we mentioned uh Mike.

Marshall, the 14-year-old that wasn't. supposed to be on that bus, >> and he was far and away the oldest kid. there and the most capable to help. >> Years later, after a while of this story. of Ed Ray, he finally came out and said, "Oh, you know, Ed Ray is a good guy. I. don't want to disparage him, but like it. was my idea and I was the one that. really led the charge to escape." and he. was a big mess kind of crying in his. hands that they were doomed and dead. And he got on board and helped me, but.

it was really me. And the reason I kind. of believe that after reading all the. accounts is it took many years for him. to kind of come out with this and it. felt like he even felt bad for saying. so. >> So, I think that Mike Marshall in fact. did lead the charge to escape. Well, his. his account was corroborated by another. guy named Larry Park who wrote a book. called The Chowilla School Bus. Kidnapping: Why Me? And I don't know if. he corroborated in that or in an.

interview later on, but um he was there. and he said that that's true, that. that's how it went down. On the other. perspective, the fact that like when Ed. Ray like lived the rest of his life, he. stayed in Chailla. Most of those people, kids who've been kidnapped with him. stayed in Chailla. When he was dying, those same kids as adults now came and. visited him at his his bedside, say. goodbye. Um, there's plenty of. opportunity for, you know, little town.

to start talking, you know, whispers and. that kind of thing. And that doesn't. seem to have happened. He seems to have. died considered a hero as well. So my. take on a Chuck is that he may have been. a gloom and doom about their prospects. to begin with and maybe it really was um. Mike Marshall who said no we need to we. need to try to get out of here. >> But even Mike Marshall said after a. while once Mike Marshall started to try. Ed Ray joined in and started helping and. that they might not have been able yeah. they might not have been able to get out.

had a grown man not been helping them. like push against this. >> Totally agree. I think we're I think we. park our cars in the same garage here. >> Yeah, look at them. They're super. >> uh so here's how they got out. They took. those mattresses and stacked them up and. they took apart one of they kind of. smashed one of the box springs. >> uh which are framed in wood and they. started using that wood as like a sort. of makeshift crowbar to try and what. these guys kidnappers had done is they. put um some sort of iron plate. I've.

seen manhole but it was some kind of. heavy metal plate. over the thing uh. along with two industrial tractor. batteries which are super heavy and then. dirt. So there's ended up being several. hundred lb kind of weighing this thing. down uh this escape hatch. But they were. able after hours and hours to finally. kind of use that wood to pry open just. enough to where they see starlight and. dirt leaking in. And with the help of Ed. Ray and and his, you know, manly man.

strength, they were able to climb out of. there. Mike Marshall was. >> So Mike Marshall climbed out and then. from that moment on and so apparently. also Ed Ray was really worried and I. guess Mike Marshall was too, but it it. was not a deterrent for him. But they. were worried that there was at least one. or more of the kidnappers hanging around. with a gun. So there was a good chance to in their. minds that they were going to poke. through and just be shot on site. >> Sure. >> So they were worried about that. Uh and. luckily when Mark Marshall poked his. head up, he saw that there was no one.

around. There's nobody guarding it. They, it turned out that they had long. since left. Um, and that so Mike. Marshall had Ed Ray start handing kids. up to him and they got all the kids out. and then Ed Ray out and Mike Marshall. ran into the woods to hide so in case. the the kidnappers were still around, they just hadn't seen them yet and those. kids were intercepted by him, at least. Mike Marshall would be able to run away. through the woods and and get help. Um, but it turned out the kidnappers weren't. there and and somebody luckily was still.

working at the quarry, I I believe, including a security guard when Ed Ray. and the kids ran up and and presented. themselves. So, that's how uh and then I. guess the guy got on the phone and uh. within moments of that happening, the. news made it back to Chowilla that. they'd all been found safe and they were. all alive and generally unharmed. And um. Ed Ray was basically automatically. hailed as a hero. >> Uh Carl M uh Carl Malden was certainly. portrayed as the hero. >> Yeah.

>> In the Lifetime movie, >> they said, "Do you have anything you'd. like to say?" And he said, "Just that my. feet hurt.". >> And you know, we again want to point out. this was uh 36 hours from beginning to. end. But these kids were. didn't know what was going on above. ground. They were hot. They were, you. know, stripping down to their underwear. Uh Carl Malden was in his underwear even. in the movie. >> Oh, nice. >> Uh they were running out of food and. water. So, as a five to 14year-old,

>> I mean, Ed Ray was in hysterics. You're. You think you're going to die down. there. So, it may not have been, you. know, a kidnapping that lasted days and. weeks. But that doesn't minimize the. trauma that these kids suffered down. there completely not knowing what was. going on above ground and and daring to. escape, not knowing if they were all of. a sudden that van was going to come. speeding down the road after. Like. >> it it took a while until they felt safe, I think. >> And then on top of that, Chuck, you'd. said it kind of earlier, but I think it. really bears repeating. They were really.

worried that the roof of this thing was. going to cave in. four feet of dirt on. top of a moving van roof that had been. in the in the perpetrator's defense had. been reinforced with lumber, but not. very well. >> Um, that's a lot of weight hang pushing. down on this. And if you see pictures of. what the thing looked like from inside, I I could see how they would have been. very nervous that the thing was going to. cave in on them and crush them. >> Oh, yeah. Like the pictures of it. afterward, that roof was in the process.

of caving in. >> Yeah. It was very nerve-wracking. >> Of course, if that would have happened, the dirt probably would have caved in. and gotten some of them dirty and then. they could crawl out. >> I hope so. Hopefully, that's how it. would have happened. >> Who knows? But, you know, like I said, they didn't know what was going on down. there. >> No, they didn't. So, but now they're. free. They're they're they're safe. Um. and the authorities go get them. They uh. the FBI, the sheriff, everybody's um. interviewing them. This is hours. This. is more hours for the parents back in. Chilla having to wait. Uh, and then.

there was a um a Greyhound bus that went. and got them and brought them back. It. was pretty sweet. There was a lot of. donations going on. Like apparently. Pacific Bell donated not just new phones. but new phone lines because there were. so many calls being made by the. authorities and by the press, which. we'll factor in in a second. >> Um, they uh the Greyhound bus lines. donated that bus ride, which is worth. mentioning. Um, I guess the FBI donated. their time.

Who knows? Now they get paid. >> But there was a Okay. There was a lot of. um there was just like a lot of banding. together to support this town as they. were going through this. And I I just. thought it was cool. There was a. Greyhound bus that rolled up with. everybody inside and they got off and. they're like, I'm never getting on one. of those again. >> Well, I did kind of wonder. I was like, maybe we should send like a few or not. even vans. Send 12 cars. >> No buses, no vans. >> That's a good. >> You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. I.

get what you're saying. Or just make. them walk the 100 miles back. >> And of course, the kids got to go to. Disneyland. >> That was a big one. Um. >> they got a hero's welcome. They got a. parade. They got to go to Disneyland. And it was as soon as the town went from. the saddest place on earth to the. happiest place on earth in the span of. 36 hours. >> Yeah. They had a huge feast. I saw that. um Ed Ray won a vacation. uh that he appeared on Hollywood Squares. which was that's peak that's peak.

exposure in the mid76. >> sure. >> and Chuck there's one other little fact. that we have to say about this that. Robert Goule recorded a song called the. ballot of chowchilla. it's so obscure it is not on YouTube. some either cursed or blessed soul put. it on Soundcloud. >> yeah you can find there's a cover. version on YouTube. >> Oh, yeah. >> From another person. >> I couldn't find it. >> But, uh, I recommend the SoundCloud. Goule version. It is,

>> uh, it is a product of the 1970s in every. way. >> It's unlistenable. >> I made it through most of it. >> Did you make it through all of it? >> I made it through most of it, then I. skipped to the end. >> Okay. It was it was something else. because it's sort of like disco but it's. also that very 70s thing when they wrote. these story songs like about the the kid. uh jumping off of the Tachah Hatchee. bridge or whatever. Not Tach Hatchee. What was it?

>> Billy Joe McAllister. >> Like they wrote these songs in the 70s. These weird sort of folk story songs. >> A ballad. >> Yeah. But not I mean a ballad can be. like a love song. These were like folk. stories. I thought a ballad went meant. it was like told a story. >> maybe. But I think of ballads as love. songs generally, >> but a love story, >> right? >> Like the Air Supply wrote ballads. They. didn't write songs about folk heroes. jumping off of bridges, you know? They.

should have. >> Sure. >> Well, I don't know. There's really. nothing Air Supply could have done to. have improved their game. They were. pretty much perfect. >> Sound great. >> Yeah. One of the best concerts I ever. saw in my life was Air Supply in in. Jacksonville, Florida. >> It's amazing. >> It was. It was amazing. I I've said it before. and I'll say it again. It was like the. fabric of reality was coming apart at. the seams and we were right right there. to witness it. It was so cool.

>> I didn't know you took ecstasy at that. show. That's. >> I didn't. That was That's what's so. significant about it. We were totally. sober. >> Yeah. What was it about the Was it just songs. from your childhood or something? >> No, it was I mean, yes, that was part of. it. It was great to hear all those songs. and see them live. It was the chemistry. between the two dudes. Um, they still. got it after all these years is really. neat to see. >> Um, and but what really kind of made it. unreal was it it was it almost had the.

same feeling as like a really energetic. tent revival. Like people were were. wandering down the aisles like like you. could tell they were moving not. necessarily of their own will. They were. being drawn toward the stage. It was it. was bizarre. It was so cool to see. People were just out of their minds at. this Air Supply show and and like we're. I don't think any of them were on. Ecstasy either. I think like everybody. was like people were with their moms or.

with their kids or it was just a neat. neat show. I'll never forget it ever. Amazing. So, go see Air Supply. I'm sure. they're playing a third rate casino near. you. >> Probably. They They definitely do the. work for sure. >> They supply you with more than air, though. It sounds like, >> dude. And the um the the guy's voice. still is 100% as good as it was in the. 70s, which is pretty. >> I was watching some uh I was watching. some vids the other day, live vids of. them recently. >> It's a good thing to do. Sit around. But.

definitely check out the song on. Soundcloud. >> Oh, yeah. and listen to as much of it as. you can. >> You won't make it all the way through. The ballot of Chowell Ray. It's so bad. Now I understand why Elvis would shoot. the TV whenever Robert Goule came on. It. was because of that. Because of that. song. >> Robert Goule. >> Is that why he shot the TVs? >> Yeah. For some apparently no one knows. why, but whenever Robert Goule would. come on, he would shoot his TV. Sometimes he'd get really mad and shoot. his toaster or his oven or whatever.

>> Wow. >> But he would shoot the TV. That's pretty good. >> All right, so these kidnappers, getting. back to the story of the Chailla school. bus kidnapping, >> these guys were three real low rent. scumbags. who were didn't have a penny to their. name and were desperate for cash, right? >> In some ways, kind of. But if but they. were also all three rich kids. If you. can put those two things together, >> they were three rich white kids. one.

specifically, a literal trust fund kid. >> Yeah. >> Uh he was the ring leader. We're talking. about Fred Woods, James Shoenfeld, >> uh who were 24 and then James' younger. brother, Richard, who was 22. >> Uh but Fred Woods, uh Frederick Newh. Halls the fourth. >> was the ring leader and uh the I guess. you could call it the brains if there. was a brain behind this. Uh but he came. from a long line of California money. Uh.

his uh one of his ancestors was Henry. Mayo Newall who came in the 1850s to. California. Part of Santa Clarita is. Newall, California, named for him. >> They made a ton of money in real estate. speculation and railroads and then. eventually oil and ranching and had a. several hundred million family fortune. Yeah, I read that they made about 350. million a year in the 70s.

>> A year just that family doing nothing. And by the time this guy uh Fred Woods. IV came along, there were generations of. this family that had never worked a day. in their life. >> So it's not like his parents struck it. rich and they remembered their roots. Like their roots were just gobsmackingly. wealth is is wealthy. That's what. they're that's what they knew. And. apparently Fred was not particularly. paid attention to by his parents and it. had some effects on him. And I saw also.

that he had trouble um living up to his. father's expectations for him. >> Um. >> of a do nothing blue blood. >> Yeah. Um but that his. dad's approval meant a lot to him. >> Yeah. >> That's a terrible position for any any. person to be in and I feel for him in. that respect. And I also think from from. what I saw, there was a New York Times. article about him while I believe he was. still at large. >> Mhm.

>> Where he said that he's described as a. loser in the headline. >> Yeah. >> The New York Times calls him a loser. At. least says other people called him a. loser in their headline. Uh he was that. kind of person. And again, it was the. 70s, but he was also that kind of. person. He's just a he was he was the. product of wealthy, neglectful parents. from what I can tell. and also an. education system that seems to have. failed him at least in the grammar. portion. >> Yeah, we'll get to that.

Uh he was didn't have a lot of friends. He never really had a ton of. girlfriends. >> Um he which is ironic because he ended. up being married four times, which we'll. get to. Uh he lived in a converted. apartment in a out building on the. nearly 80 acre estate uh in um Portala. Valley where his grandmother lived and. his parents lived even though they were. traveling by themselves usually. Uh he. got a job at that rock quarry. Your. first indication that they may not have. had the smartest plan.

>> Sure. >> Because his dad owned it. Uh and he was. into cars. He collected cars with his. money. The the um the ring leader did. He had dozens and dozens of cars. >> His buddy James who helped him uh he was. rich too. Not that kind of rich but his. uh parent uh his dad was a podiatrist. So they had doctor money. So they were. doing pretty well as well. Uh and they. got into various businesses together. They had a used car business together. They never did super well it seemed like. in any of their no business ventures. because it seemed like they weren't.

super smart. >> Right. Uh, another good descriptor is. that Fred in particular loved his cars. and he loved to shoot the windows out of. his cars with his guns, which he also. loved. >> Yeah, they had a lot of guns between. them as well. >> I mean, it's sort of what you think. There were these rich kids who weren't. paid attention to that could do whatever. they wanted and ended up getting into. trouble. Uh he he had Fred had designs. on being a film producer and part of the. concept for this kidnapping was the.

school bus kidnapping in the movie Dirty. Harry. >> Yeah. >> And he said, "Hey, this would make a. great movie, too, which we'll get to. sort of the bow tie on that later on, but he and James ended up losing some. money, about 30 grand on a housing deal. And. depending on the reports you read, some. people say they were desperate for. money, but if you talk to James, he. said, "I wanted to buy a Ferrari with it. because my neighbors had Ferraris and it. was to keep up with the Jonesesh. situation.".

>> Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, Fred was born into it and I think took. money largely for granted, but um James. and and Richard, but James in. particular, really kind of felt new to. the area and didn't fit in because they. didn't have as much money. I think their. their dad was um punching above his. weight class socioeconomically in the. area that they moved to and his sons. kind of suffered for it because they. felt out of place because they just they. just did not have anywhere near the kind. of wealth that their their peers had. where they where they now lived and that.

seems to have gotten to James and that. was his big motivation. I never saw Fred. Wood's motivation. Did you? I mean, I. think part of it had to do with that 30. grand in debt, but I think part of it, dude, is he was a board rich kid in some. ways, >> right? >> Like that may have been the reason. >> So, yeah. I also Yeah. And dumb. Also, I. have the impression that um that that uh. James and Rick Shfeld were um a lot more. moral than Fredwood was.

>> Oh, yeah. Apparently in his journal, James wrote at the time that he was. worried he was becoming immoral as they. were like really planning this. >> Mhm. >> Um and he and his brother were both. Eagle Scouts. So I guess they it is fair. to say that they kind of fell under the. influence of Fred Woods um who had no. qualms about this whole thing. He. convinced them to to give up their. qualms as well. >> Yeah. I I think the last time I'll say. the word smart thing that they did was.

when they were initially hatching the. idea, they said, "We saw in the news. California, state of California has a $5. billion budget surplus. >> and we're not going to get money. kidnapping a kid or even 26 kids um from. their parents for their parents to pay. ransom." But if they were on a school. bus, then it's the responsibility of the. state of California and they've got all. this dough. So 5 million bucks is is. chump change to them,

>> right? >> So if we get them on a school bus, then. they're liable and that's how we're. going to get the most money. >> Yeah. And so the calculation that they. made was that there was nobody was going. to get hurt. They knew that they weren't. going to physically hurt those kids. >> Yeah. They knew that California had a. budget surplus, but even more than that, um that that their insurance company, the states, whoever insured the state. would end up actually paying that $5. million. And that they were just. basically taking $5 million from the.

state that the state didn't really need. uh and that nobody was going to get. hurt. And then that calculation it. really kind of reveals like how much. they did um lose any kind of morality. which is they did they utterly failed to. take into account like the psychological. and emotional damage they were going to. inflict on these kids and their parents. and the town in general you know. >> Yeah. And I think that's one of the. things that because I think I think even. in the end they saw it as like not the.

biggest deal. >> Yeah. uh because no one was hurt and it was. really quick, but like when I saw. and eventually spoiler, we'll go ahead. and say that the two brothers were. eventually parrolled and we'll get to. all that, but you know, the the news. teams in 2015 were like following this. guy around in a parking lot asking him. questions and he's just trying to avoid. it. And one of them was like, "You do. realize the trauma these kids have still. suffered into adulthood?" And he just. went, "Uh, you know, I've heard, so I've.

heard." and then just like quickly ran. away. >> So even to this day, they're trying to. get them to realize that there was a. real impact and and and the end result. was trauma and PTSD. >> Yeah. And the reason it did and it had. the impact and part of the problem for. Chailla apparently Chochilla was just. transformed immediately. Like you know. when when if you're the victim of a. crime, you you wonder like why why me? Especially a random crime. And this is a. random crime perpetrated on a whole. town.

>> Yeah. >> Like Chachilla was a possible town among. a number of towns in the area that those. three traveled to and staked out and. just kind of tried to figure out what. the best the best victim would be for. this crime and they just settled on. Chowchilla. They had no grudges against. Chowchilla. They had no ties to. Chowchilla. What the problem was, they. didn't care about the people of. Chowchilla or how they felt about their. children or what they were going to do. to them. It was just a random, they. chose them basically randomly. And.

Chowchilla is the kind of um. rural farming town where people don't. talk about their feelings. I think I get. the impression that they still think. that that's weak. It shows a sign of. weakness. And so I don't really have the. impression that the town has ever really. processed this and that they've tried to. forget and then there's a lot of. problems among the victims who are now. in their like 50s um that that have. never really been resolved or worked out.

because the town just tried to carry on. as if it never happened basically from. the get-go. >> Oh yeah. I mean, some of them got had. very hard luck stories getting into. drugs, uh, eventually getting better, uh, and going through rehab and. treatment and writing books about it. Others say they don't trust people. They. suffered nightmares for years. Some. continue to. >> Others have said that they don't even. really remember much of what happened. I. imagine if you're 5 years old, >> um, you're not going to remember as much.

as a 12-year-old, obviously. >> Sure. So depending on your age group, you may have suffered some more obvious. lasting damage, but they were all. damaged. Um, the way these guys uh got. caught is. well, I guess let's tell a little bit of. that story. Uh during the investigation, one thing they found uh in his and we'll. put this in the dumb column on the. property of uh where where Fred lived. They found uh a plan written out that.

said at the top plan. >> Yep. I think in all kidnapping plan. didn't even capitalize the P. >> Yeah. They wrote it out in pen and they. had a lot of ideas. Uh they wanted to. buy an X-ray machine. I think they did. >> uh to to uh to x-ray in case the ransom. money was bugged. >> They had a larger plan. >> They had one plan about them the state. dropping the money from a plane in the. Santa Cruz Mountains, >> right? >> Uh at a specific drop site indicated by.

a series of lights. Uh but they also had. this larger plan of putting dummies in a. plane with parachutes. And it was sort. of all over the map this plan over the. course of a year and a half. >> Yeah. There there was this really. reveals I think a lot about them as well. that on that plan sheet it said one of. the line items was burn the plan. >> Yeah. >> They just didn't get around to that. They left. I think too. Yeah. And it had a lot of.

like scratchouts and misspellings. And apparently it meant it referred to. Fred by name in the ransom note that. they planned to give to the authorities. Like really dumb stuff. >> They were trying to throw the. authorities they were trying to sniff. the authorities off the case, I guess, >> by posing or presenting themselves as a. satanic group. >> And they said that their their name was. Beiel Zabub, but they misspelled Beabub. >> Yeah. Um, they spelled it B E A L S A B.

U B. Um, which is just offensive to. anybody who knows how to spell that. word. Um, it just like if you misspell. things in your ransom note, like you're. not going to do very well for yourself. most likely. >> That's right. uh in the aftermath of the. kidnapping from when they buried the. kids to when they left, the plan was. >> call the Chowilla Police Department, demand your $5 million ransom.

>> But the Chowchilla phone system was very. small and there were obviously when you. kidnap 26 kids and the media is. descending, every phone line was busy. They literally could not get through. with their ransom demand. The kids. escaped. before they even got through with the. ransom demand. >> Yeah. >> Uh I think you said the donation from. the phone company, they literally had to. go in and install like dozens of phone. lines just so the FBI could operate. effectively.

>> Yeah. So they never. >> So what did these guys do right. afterward when they couldn't get. through? >> They decided they needed to scram that. the jig was up and they needed to part. ways and they did. Fred um Woods was. wily enough to have come up with a. passport um with the name Ralph Snyder. and he traveled successfully to British. Columbia, I think Vancouver under that. fake passport. But then when he was. there, he started writing to people. He.

had a friend who was a I think in film. school and said, "Hey, you should turn. this into a whole um like a whole a. whole a movie." He said. >> this kidnapping that I did, >> right? just give me some of the um the. box office, I guess. But he said, "But. be fair.". >> Wanted a piece. >> He said, "Be fair, but he spelled he. spelled it f a r e.". >> Yeah. >> So um that's it's I'm sorry. This is. just annoying me to no end. The. misspellings. Yeah. But um but then he. signed the letter, sent it as Ralph.

Snyder. He signed it as his his alias. So the the cops, the FBI tracked him. like within days to um Vancouver and got. the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to. arrest him. >> I wonder he knew the guy though in film. school. I wonder if this guy was like, "Who is this? >> Who's Ralph Snider?". >> Or if he put in parenthesis, that's my. alias. This is this is Fred. >> Don't tell the FBI. But he misspelled. FBI.

So Rick, the younger showfeld, uh, for. his part, almost immediately confessed. >> Uh, he got home after the three of them. met up and then split up, >> went home and told his dad what he did. >> His dad because they had money again as. a podiatrist, got him a lawyer to Sweet. And so that's why we don't know exactly, that's one reason we don't know exactly. what happened in those first like, you. know, hours afterward is cuz the lawyer. kind of kept that all quiet. Although I. did see a news report that said they.

they took naps. I don't know if that's. true or not, but I did see that. >> it sounds right. It holds up if you put. it up against everything else. >> Uh and keep in mind once again they took. these kids to a quarry that Fred Wood's. dad owned and where Fred Woods worked. And the Corey security guard said when. they were interviewed said, "Well, yeah, last week Fred and two other guys dug a. big hole out there, uh, you know, a few. months before this happened, um, like a.

I don't know, like a a moving van size. hole, >> right?" But the hole's gone now, so who. cares, >> right? Exactly. Um, so Rick turned. himself in. Uh, Fred got caught. James. uh made attempts to cross the border. into Canada himself, but apparently the. Canadian authorities considered him a. way too nervous, b way too vague about. what he planned to do in Canada, and c. in possession of way too many guns to be.

led in the country. And apparently tried. two or three times using his own name to. get in and finally gave up and turned. around. And I guess he had decided he. was going to turn himself into. authorities, but because of an all. points bulletin on his license plate, he. was uh picked up before he could turn. himself in. >> Right. So they were all uh collected. less than two weeks after it happened. >> Yes. >> All right. Well, let's take our last. break and then we will uh kind of. quickly go over the sentencing and what. happened afterward. Right after this.

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right. So, >> they were collected. >> Yeah, they were collected and uh of. course had their day in court. And the. big um the big thing that happened in. court was was whether or not these guys. um committed bodily harm on these. children. Because if you committed. bodily harm, then you have uh a sentence. of life without or possible sentence of.

life without parole. If there was no. bodily harm, then you could have life. with parole, >> right? >> Uh they ruled that they did suffer. bodily harm. So, uh they had stomach. trouble, they had nose bleeds, some of. the kids fainted, uh and that that. counted. But in 1980, an appeals court. uh reversed that ruling, said that is. not bodily harm, and that made them. eligible for parole. Uh and since then, uh like I said earlier, the two. Shoenfeld brothers have been released uh.

in I think 2012 and 2015, >> right? Like long after some observers. who are involved in the case think that. they should have been parrolled, like. especially Richard Shonfeld. He was 22. at the time. He was basically there. I. saw it described as along for the ride. >> Um, again, an Eagle Scout. He probably. became an Eagle Scout 3, four years. before this happened. Um, and he uh he.

he spent. um. >> 39 years in prison. >> Yeah, >> I guess. So, 2015 is when or he got out. in 2012. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, about 37 years. in prison of of his life. From age 22, he spent the next 37 years in prison for. basically hanging out with his brother. and his brother's goofy friend doing. something really stupid. Um, and a lot. of other people said, "Yeah, and if.

you're going to let Richard Shfeld out, you should really probably take another. look at James Shofeld, too, because. yeah, he was more involved than his. brother, um, but he was still no Fred. Woods." And then you get to Fred Woods. and people say, "Yeah, he probably just. he doesn't really deserve to be. parrolled.". >> Yeah. I mean, the other two were model. prisoners. Uh and they also had uh I. mean, people that were active uh I don't. know if it was the prosecutor or. investigator. I think the investigator.

for the case eventually advocated for. parole. >> Both did. >> Uh yeah. So, you know, some of the. town's people felt betrayed by that, but. they did get out. Fred Woods was not a. model prisoner. He was still as shady as. ever. You know, you're not supposed to. to run businesses from prison, but he. ran a gold mine. He ran a used car. business. He ran a Christmas tree farm. >> Uh he got married a few times. The. reason he was finally outed was he was. uh running the Christmas tree farm. And.

uh Michael Bianke, who was managing that. business, got injured on the job, and. Wood said, "I'm not going to help pay. for the surgery." So Bianke said, "All. right." and he filed a a state workers. comp claim and they got on the. investigation and found out that Woods. was behind the operation. >> So, he's not uh when it comes time for. parole, that doesn't look good. >> No. And I guess he's been denied parole. 17 times so far. >> Yes. >> And he's up next in 2024. And a lot of people think he he might.

not he might never be parrolled, actually. Well, he bought a mansion. >> in Nepomo, California, 30 miles from the. prison that no one lives at. Uh he did. have a civil lawsuit in 2016 where he. had to pay out money to the victims uh. that was described as uh quote enough to. pay for some serious therapy, but not. enough to buy a house. which is significant too because they. did rule an appeals court ruled in 1980. that they didn't inflict bodily harm.

But I wonder if that same appeals court. would come to the to that conclusion in. 2021. >> based on interviews with some of the the. people who were abducted like Jennifer. Brown Hyde who I mentioned earlier who's. not. >> I I think emotional harm would play in. these days. >> right and there was definitely emotional. harm inflicted. You talked about Larry. Park who was addicted to meth and crack. before he he finally found forgiveness. and actually. >> went and met all with all three of the.

uh the perpetrators and shook their. hands and told them he forgave them and. apparently changed his own life like. that. If you haven't listened. >> Fred Ward said, "Hey, I could make you a. heck of a deal on a used van.". >> Yeah. No, Fred Ward took his watch when. he shook his hand. Well, I was I was kidding, but he uh my. final little factoid is that uh that. used Carlat had those two vans. >> and he held on to those because he. thought they would be worth a lot of. money as the kidnap vans. >> Yeah. Which they might be worth an extra. few hundred bucks. I could see that. But.

I don't know if that that if that's the. the crown jewel of your inventory. I. don't know. >> Nick Cage bought him, >> right? Uh, and then you can go watch that movie. from Lifetime, uh, in 1993 called. They've Taken Our Children if you want. to see Carl Malden in his underwear. Apparently, >> man, bad movie, bad song. >> I read also that Chowchilla residents do. not care for that movie, Chuck, because. it was shot in Kansas, and anyone who. knows anything about the Sanwaqin Valley. knows that Kansas is a poor standin for.

that. So, they're a little turned off by. that movie from what I understand. >> That's right. And then last thing, I. want to shout out um Caleb Horton who. wrote an article on Vox, very in-depth. one, called The Ballad of the Chowchilla. Bus Kidnapping. It's pretty good. >> Oh, that's a good one. >> Yeah, it is. >> All right. All right. The the article, not the song. No, no. >> Oh, okay. >> It's an article. An article. I gotcha. >> Okay. Well, uh since we had we worked.

out them misunderstanding everybody, that means it's time for listener mail. I'm going to call this uh let me see how. about racist ticketing. Uh in our. episode on jaywalking, we talked about. uh people have uh and the black and. Hispanic communities are ticketed more. for jaywalking. Uh and this is from. Valerie Mates in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Hey guys, you mentioned that black and. Hispanic drivers are issued more traffic. tickets than white drivers. this.

interesting issue in Chicago when they. installed traffic cameras they found. that the cameras despite being race. neutral still gave more tickets to black. and Hispanic drivers. >> So of course they wanted to study that. The experts found that more affluent. neighborhoods are built with more. features that would naturally slow down. traffic. More sidewalks, more stop. signs, more crosswalks. while poorer. neighborhoods had fewer those uh fewer. of those things and the result would. cars would be naturally uh would tend to. drive faster in poorer neighborhoods. Uh.

since black and Hispanic drivers are. more likely to live and be driving in. less wealthy neighborhoods in Chicago, they were more likely to be speeding and. caught by traffic cameras. Uh or so says. the evidence at least. >> Crazy. >> Uh it's not just prejudice on the part. of police officers that causes this. discrepancy. is actually a difference in. how the neighborhoods are built. systematically. Thought it was really. interesting. Uh, and I agree, Valerie. >> Thanks for sending that in. >> Who was it again?

>> Valerie Mates of Ann Arbor. >> Thanks a lot, Valerie. That's a great. one. Uh, if you got a great one like. Valerie does, we love little brain. busters like that. Um, so you can wrap. them up, spank them on the bottom, and. send them off via email to stuffpodcast@. iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from. iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.

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