SYSK's 12 Days of Christmas… Toys: Cabbage Patch Kids: Must-Have Toy of the Century

[bell]. Hey everybody, it's my turn now. It's. Josh and for this episode on our stuff. you should know 12 days of Christmas. toys playlist. We're talking about. Cabbage Patch Kids. One of the all-time. top contenders for a must-have [music]. Christmas toy. I had one. His name was. Weber Dino and he was very great. We had. very fun times together, important. times. At any rate, whether you had a. Cabbage Patch Kid or not, I think you're. going to enjoy this episode. So, turn up.

your cocoa, throw some marshmallows in. there, and enjoy this app. [music and bell]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. And I'm. Josh. Um Josh Malcolm [music] Clark. There's Charles Wayne Bryant. This is stuff you should know about.

Cabbage [music] Patch Kids who have two. names, which is why I just did that. >> That's right. This uh remarkably the. third time we've talked about Cabbage. Patch Kids on this show. >> I only remember one other time. When was. the When was the third time or the the. second time, I guess? Well, the last. time was uh not even a year ago. um on our on our episode on mustave. Christmas gifts. And then.

>> that's all I remember. >> Yeah. And then while I was uh telling. the story of my Cabbage Patch Kid. experience, you said, "Yes, you've told. everyone the story before, >> so I think this will be the third time. that we hear these stories.". >> I thought you didn't have a Cabbage. Patch, kid. So, you don't remember the. other two times I told the story? >> No, you got to tell it again. It's. called the It's called the hat trick, baby. >> Uh yeah. Uh my sister has one of the the. first like 75 of them uh of the Little.

People dolls. >> Oh, wow. >> That she bought in Georgia when she was. a kid. >> Now I uh now I know why it didn't stick. [snorts] with me because I didn't. understand what the heck you were. talking about. Now I totally get it and. I think it will stay with me forever. Chuck, when we do our fourth, fifth, and. sixth uh podcasts on Cabbage Patch Kids, I will be the one telling that story. How about that? >> Uh well, and you also told the story of. yours that you uh ripped the head off.

and gave it a mohawk. >> Yeah. For yours. >> Weberino met a a pretty a terrible. demise. >> And I have two of them myself that my. mom every once in a while says, "Hey, do. you want these?" And I say, "No, [snorts] I don't I don't think they're. worth much money." And I I don't know. even know if My Sisters is worth a lot. of money now, even though it's. handsigned and one of the first ones. I. just I don't think the market is as.

robust as it was at one point. >> So, was hers a Kico Little People or is. Xavier Roberts like original Appalachin. artworks um Little People? No, hers was. one of the handmade. Xavier Roberts uh craft fair dolls. >> I I I think those go for like one, two, maybe $2,000, I think. >> Yeah. Just I guess depends on where you. look. Like I saw the one that of mine.

that was one of those originals and it. wasn't one of the first 100, but people. were asking like 150 bucks on eBay for. those. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I'm surprised. to see that. Like from what I've seen, if like if if you really want the big. bucks, it's the the original Xavier. Roberts Little People. But um we're. probably getting ahead of ourselves a. little bit because some people are. probably like, "What's a Cabbage Patch. Kid?". Right. >> Right. >> So, well, we'll tell everybody what a. Cabbage Patch Kid is. It's a little doll.

that um was a huge huge deal in the. Christmas of 1983. And like Chuck said, we talked about this on um I guess it. was our I think it was our Christmas. episode or was it a different standalone. um episode from last year? >> No, I think the first time we did it was. a Christmas episode and then last year. it was in November. It was just a must. have Christmas toys. >> Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Um so that's worth.

listening to. But um in in December of. 1983, Christmas of 1983, everybody was. going crazy for these dolls. But at the. same time, there was like because it was. such a huge craze and there they were so. part of like popular culture at the. moment. They were on the news every. night. Um people were doing just. absolutely crazy things to get their. hands on these these dolls for their. kids. There was a lot of talk about, well, what what what are these things? They're so ugly that they're cute. And. other people thought, well, no, they're. actually just ugly. Um there is a a a.

art a journal article that came out in. 1986 in the semantics journal etc. Um. and the cabbage patch kids were. described as open arm denied seemingly. dull-witted with mop-haired faces only. mothers could love which I think is. pretty pretty it's a pretty accurate. description of a cabbage patch kid don't. you think? >> Yeah. So uh on that there was and this. is something I never knew. Apparently, there was a rumor uh years after the. fact that um the design was um managed.

by Ronald Reagan because [laughter] he. wanted to get Americans used to what um. mutant offspring might look like if we. ever go to if the big one ever drops and. we go to war with the Ruskies. Um we. might want to get used to our babies. looking like this. So, let's just It's. sort of in the classic Hollywood like. you know their theories that that's why. we make UFO movies. They're commissioned. by the government to get people sort of. adjusted to the idea that one day. there's going to be aliens walking. around.

>> Right. Exactly. Um but that's probably. not the case. Ronald Reagan probably. didn't have anything to do with it. But. that's just such an 80s thing. Cabbage. Patch Kids, Ronald Reagan and Nuclear. War with the USSR. That's about like the. greatest 80s combination I've ever heard. of in my life. >> Yeah, pretty good. So, um, if you go on. to the Cabbage Patch Kids website, you'll find the, um, enchanting magical. story of where Cabbage Patch Kids came. from or how they came into our human.

world. And it goes something like um. this that when he was a young boy, Xavier Roberts uh was wandering around. the Appalachin Mountains and he saw what. uh is called a bunny bee which is a. magical bee that or magical bunny that. can fly around like buzzes around like a. bee and he followed it and the bunny bee. went through a waterfall and Xavier. Roberts went and looked and saw that. behind the waterfall there was a tunnel. and he went into the tunnel being an.

inquisitive type of appalachin young. boy. Um, and when he came out on the. other side of the tunnel, he was clearly. in some sort of enchanted land because. there were a bunch of bunny bees flying. around over a cabbage patch, sprinkling. some sort of magical dust. And Xavier. noticed that when the dust hit the. cabbage, the cabbage would start to move. and a little baby would be born from it, a cabbage patch kid. And one of those. kids, a kid named Otis Lee, came up to. Xavier and said, 'Hey, will you take me.

and all of my friends over to your human. world and help us find homes? And so. Xavier Roberts agreed and he founded. Babyland General Hospital for the. purpose of adopting out Cabbage Patch. Kids. And that's where it all came from. >> That's right. Uh Babyland General right. here in Cleveland, Georgia. And I just. so happened to have driven by there. Uh. but two days ago I went up. >> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. We went on a a waterfall hike the. family did on Sunday.

>> And. >> did you see a bunny bee? >> We didn't see a bunny bee, but we drove. right by Baby Land General and Emily was. like, "Did you know that was there?" I. was like, "Yeah, I've been there.". So, of course, I knew it was there. But, >> uh that's where Xavier Roberts went to. college. He went to college at Truit. McConnell there in Cleveland. So, that. was the connection. >> Right. Right. Yeah. If you want to if. you want to kind of take it down a notch. as far as magical enchantment goes, the. the official story is that um Xavier. Roberts while he was at Tru McConnell um.

while he was studying art there, he came. across a German fabric sculpture. technique from the 19th century called. needle molding. And um if you've ever. seen you know that that really famous. tomato ping cushion, Chuck, from the. 70s. >> Mhm. So, you know how how like the top. the creases in the top of the tomato are. made by like like taut thread pulled. through together to kind of create that. that molded look. >> that from what I can tell is is a form. of needle molding. But somehow Xavier.

Roberts was like, I really like. sculpture and this is a form of soft. sculpture. I also like quilting and this. kind of has to do with quilting. I'm. going to get into this and I'm going to. figure out how to make baby dolls using. this needle molding technique. and he. did just that starting in 1977. >> Yeah. And uh for those of you that want. to throw your um car into a ditch right. now because you're screaming about the. story um because you know the true. story, just put a pin in it. We're going. to get around to it.

>> That was very merciful of you, Chuck. >> Yeah. I didn't want people to to think. that we didn't know. Um, but in 1977, uh, Xavier Roberts, uh, who sort of. looked like a sort of like a. shorterhaired Kenny Rogers type, uh, wore a cowboy hat and had this beard. And, um, he developed these, uh, they. were, like you said, soft sculpture, but. they were dolls called Little People. And here was the sort of hitch that. really drove kids wild is that they were.

not dolls that you buy. They were little. people that you adopt. So you got. adoption birth certificates. Um it was a. um it was a brilliant idea that he had. put a pin in it, >> right? >> And he and he sold these things, Little. People originals. He had uh he went to. arts and craft shows. He sold them. We. bought ours at Unicoy Lodge at Uncoy. State Park in a gift shop there. So that. was the kind of place that would carry. this kind of stuff. Um, they were about. $40 and I remember distinctly that my.

father could not imagine paying $40 for. a doll. And uh, I think even I think we. even left without little Chuck and he. went back because he felt so bad about. how crest fallen my sister was and. bought the doll later on for a Christmas. gift or something if my memory served. me. But it was a lot of money. Uh, 40. bucks was a lot of money for a doll back. then. Yeah, it [clears throat] was. probably getting pretty close to a. hundred bucks. And I mean, who goes to.

Uniccoy State Park's gift shop and. expects to drop a hundred bucks on a. piece of folk art that's really just a. baby doll, you know? I could kind of see. dad's [laughter]. >> he thought he was going to have to get a. a Michelle miniature license plate for. 250. >> Sure. Exactly. And when you go in with. an expectation like that and you are. faced with a $100 uh soft sculpture um. payment that you have to make, that's a. big shock. And sometimes somebody needs. to get in their car and drive home and.

think about it before they can accept. that. >> That's right. >> So um that like you said, that's exactly. the kind of place you would have bought. this. You could have also found him at. like craft fairs or something. And in. fact, um, uh, Xavier Roberts won first. place at the Oyola Art Show in CM, Florida, um, for, uh, Little People that. he named Dexter, which is one of the. most uncanny, haunting, horrid dolls. you'll ever see in your life. Um, but it. helped kind of generate some buzz. And.

at that point, he was like, you know. what, this is things are kind of going. well. People are paying 40 bucks for for. um to adopt one of these little people. I'm winning first place prizes. I'm. going to get together some friends. And. he uh founded what's known as Original. Appalachin Artworks. Um and they they. are the ones that actually opened up. Babyland General. They took a an old. medical center in Cleveland, which is. super creepy. Um that they they they. took an abandoned hospital and opened it. at for it's basically like a doll store.

Really creepy if you step back and just. look at the contours of the whole thing. Um but it was. >> No, no, it didn't. I'm just saying if. you just look at the words on paper and. you put it like that, it does seem like. >> when you hospital, it was like a little. house. >> It and it was the opposite of creepy. Like it was delightful. And I guess it. still is because I mean it's still an. operation today, but people would show. up and like there were like the the. people who worked there were dressed up. as nurses and doctors and and they would.

help the uh the the babies be born from. cabbage um from cabbages. Uh then they. would be incubated. There were preeies. that were born. Like it was a big deal. operation to take this this idea of that. you were adopting a a Cabbage Patch Kid. rather than buying a doll and then like. adding that whole extra dimension to it. of going to Baby Land General to do it. really helped generate a lot of buzz for. for these things. >> Yeah. And I should say that my sister's. doll Chuck who was they come with their. name. She didn't name it after me, but.

uh Chuck had um you know, if you see the. the early versions of these things, like. you said, it was kind of horrific. looking. They they weren't the cutest. dolls at all. Chuck had a very crooked. hairline. Um like it looked like it was. made by someone who didn't fully know. what they were doing. His little yarn. hairline was like a good three inches. higher on one side of his forehead than. the other, which. >> oh my, >> again, further my dad did not see the. charm in this. He was like, "It's not. even made well and I got to pay $40 for. these things." But um supposedly with.

the preeies, uh Xavier Roberts has given. some credit to just raising awareness. for premature babies because uh the. preeies in Cabbage Patch Land were so. cute. Uh they also had C-sections, cabbage sections. And uh by the time. 1980 rolls around, he's selling a pretty. good amount of these things, but it. really explodes uh in popular culture. from sort of the early 80s. He was uh. featured on the TV show Real People, um.

which I watched a lot as a kid, uh made. Newsweek, uh made the Wall Street. Journal, and so the press is starting to. kind of come around and these things are. just getting more and more popular at. this point. Yeah, a lot of those stories. just kind of focused on um people who. were paying a lot more than the original. retail price to start collecting these. dolls. So, there's like a whole. underground cult market that was. developing around these little people. Um, and it became very apparent that. Xavier Roberts was not going to be able.

to keep up with supply. So, he started. looking for some help and he found it in. 1982. And we will talk all about that. partnership made in heaven starting. after these messages. [singing]. [singing]. [music]. [music].

Okay, Chuck. So, uh, it's 1982 and the. little people are just going bonkers. They're flying off of shelves. They. can't keep them in stock anywhere. they're selling them. Uniccoy State Park. is on the phone every day being like, "Send us more. Send us more. We don't. care what the hairline looks like. We. got to have them." And um, so Xavier. Roberts started looking for some like a. a legit toy manufacturer to help him. out. and he found it in Kico who had.

made a name I guess around the same time. as maybe a little bit before this year. before maybe as the people who um came. out with Pac-Man. So they were riding. high by this time and they said I think. there's something to this these little. people and we're going to we're going to. buy in here and so um Xavier Roberts. partnered with Kico and the the rest of. the story just kind of takes off like a. rocket from there. >> Yeah. So, this was in 1982. [clears throat] and uh at at first Kico.

said, "You know what? We're going to. keep calling them Little People. Uh we. think that's a a good name, even though. it wasn't." Um so, they stuck with the. name. Uh they figured out the best way. to mass-produce these things um was to. get rid of that handdone, handsewn head. That was a real problem. That's what. took the most time. Um it's also, frankly, what gave those early dolls all. the personality. Um, a lot of that was. lost when they went to the the plastic. heads, but they did keep the uh cloth.

bodies. Uh, they machine produced these. vinyl heads. They size the doll down a. little bit to about 16 in. Um, the. initial dolls were pretty big. Um, they. varied in size obviously depending on. how old um they were when you adopted. them, but um they they were large. Like. Chuck was a big doll. The two I have. were big dolls. Yeah. They were like the. size where if they were possessed by a. demon and came alive, they could smother. you. Like you'd be in big trouble if. they came alive while you were asleep. >> Yes. Big time. Uh but sizing them down.

made a big difference cuz then you could. just box them up, get more shelf space. that way. >> Sure. >> And they were smart early on, too, to. realize that kids wanted a lot of uh. variety. Um they wanted different uh. ethnicities. They wanted different skin. color, different shapes. They wanted. some with freckles, some with dimples, um obviously different eye color and. hair color and stuff like that. And that. was one of the big selling points is it. wasn't just this um samsies. mass-produced doll that that right every.

kid could have the same one. Every kid. wanted a different version. >> Yeah. Because I mean that was the part. of the whole marketing that you were. adopting your own individual kid, your. own Cabbage Patch kid who had his or her. own name, his or her own like specific. birth date. Um he or she was a unique. little baby that you were adopting. So, um, the idea that you could take. different head molds and different. facial features and different types of. hair and you had like a few different.

from each category, you suddenly had. like millions of combinations that you. could randomly put together. It. continued that uniqueness that was like. part of the brand from the beginning and. like you said was like part of like the. big the big thing that like made this. craze so so huge. You know, they were. very smart to to identify that as a big. part of the marketing and then figure. out a way to carry it on while also. mass- prodducing these things. It was. pretty clever on KCO's part.

>> Yeah. And it was also clever to change. the name. Um little people. >> Yeah. >> just didn't have legs basically in the. end. And they thought Cabbage Patch. Kids, they were born in the Cabbage. Patch. It's um and you know looking back. it's it's a pretty brilliant name uh. because it ties into being adopted uh. being born in the little cabbage patch. and um it's it it was pretty brilliant I. think. Um it it was the kind of name. like that you could end up making into a. bunch of other things which they did and.

we're going to talk about that but I. don't think little people quite had the. legs to do that. So, um, KCO also. figured out that there was a a really. good sweet spot that even if you. couldn't really afford it, you would. still stretch to reach that point. And. they started adopting these the adoption. fees for Cabbage Patch Kids came to. about $30, which is $78 in today's. money. Um, and then they they took their. um, you know, comparatively much larger.

clout um, and contacts in the media and. started getting way more press for. Cabbage Patch Kids than Xavier Roberts. ever managed to to generate for Little. People. Which I have to say, looking. looking back though, Xavier Roberts did. some really good work as just some dude. from Cleveland, Georgia who was hand. sewing dolls. I mean, he got some pretty. good coverage. very niche and regional, >> right? Exactly. And it wasn't. It became. a big deal. But Kico just put it to.

shame. They they um they got a lot of. press, a lot of um interest drummed up. for Cabbage Patch Kids. And all of that. kind of culminated in a December 12th um. two 1983 edition of Newsweek when there. was a a cabbage patch a little girl with. her cabbage patch kit on the cover of. that edition just in time for the. Christmas buying season. >> That's right. Because every kid in. America was reading Newsweek and saying,

"Mom, dad, look. It's on the cover. >> We have to get one.". >> Yep. And that was at the very quaint. time when when you would um you would. just start Christmas shopping two weeks. before Christmas rather than eight. months before Christmas. >> Uh so KCO and by the way just to save. listener males uh Kico did not make. Pac-Man. I just want to save you from. that fate. >> Is that right? >> Yeah. I think I think it was Namco if I. remember correctly. >> Oh man. >> I mean they did do video games but. >> Okay. Well, thanks for saving me.

>> No, no, no. There'll be plenty of uh. people that write that probably sent the. email before I even got to this. [laughter]. [gasps]. and that want to retract the email, but. uh that's okay. So, they started selling. these things like hotcakes. Uh they sold. um 3 million plus by the end of 1983. And like so many uh Christmas items that. came before and after, it is sort of the. frenzy is determined by availability and. and supply. And they were underprepared.

>> and they could not keep up with demand. Uh they weren't like uh the Rubik's cube. where they just made, you know, millions. and millions and millions of these. things. Uh and it became a supply. problem and it became a really big deal. And this is um this is the first toy. where people were angry because there. weren't enough of them to go around. >> Yeah. And I mean they still made 3. million of them and they ran out like. very quickly. And and when you say. people were angry like they were. throwing elbows. They were um pushing.

one another. They were like they were. getting physical trying to get these. dolls. And now it's like well yeah that. sounds like a a Christmas like must have. Christmas toy. People hadn't done that. up to this point. This was very new. And. so in addition to, you know, the normal. press they were getting, these dolls. were also ending up on like the nightly. news a lot that December with stories. about how parents were like driving. across state lines to get one of those. Cabbage Patch Kids. or there was a a.

story about a a post carrier in Kansas. City, I think, who flew to London to buy. one, which I don't understand why. because London had its own frenzy going. on as well. Um, there was a whole lot of. stuff going down that hadn't really gone. down before Cabbage Patch Kids came. along that Christmas. >> Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if that became a. technique to sell more things was to. either uh falsely. um kind of falsely say that you don't.

have enough. >> I think we covered that in the mustave. toys episode that that is that is a. technique that they use that they per. they purposefully underproduce to to. create scarcity. >> Yeah. But then you can't sell as many. I. would think it'd be better to produce. the regular amount and then just say you. didn't and then they're like, "But we. found a warehouse that we didn't know. about.". >> Right. Exactly. >> Because you still want to move these. dolls. I mean, Rubik's Cube, they sold. 200 million Rubik's Cubes in the first.

few years. >> I know. That's nuts. >> because they were just pumping those. things out. >> Yeah. Well, at at the very least, I. think Kico was genuinely caught. underprepared. I don't think it was a in. any way, shape, or form a purposeful Oh, no. Scarcity. I think it was just. straight up scarcity. Um, and there was. there was there's this footage from uh. Zales Depart or no, sorry, Zer. department store. >> Wilsberry, Pennsylvania. >> Right. This is in Wilksberry Wilsberry,

Pennsylvania or Wils Barra. I've also. seen Pennsylvania. Um, but there's this. manager who I know we talked about. before, but you got to see this guy. He's the manager of the Zar department. store um in December of 1983 at least. And this guy's like unhinged. Have you. seen footage of him? >> Yeah, we I saw him last year. [laughter]. >> Okay. You got to see him again. I got to. describe him again because I I he struck. a chord with me this year that he didn't. last year. But he's he's holding a. baseball bat very famously. But if you.

listen to what he's doing, he's shouting. at the customers. He's like, "Shut up. Listen to me." Hey. And he's like waving. this baseball bat. And there's this. crowd of people filling every available. inch of this this department store. wanting Cabbage Patch Kids. And this guy. decides that the way to satisfy the need. is to just start tossing them into the. crowd. So the crowd is like jostling, going crazy, trying to catch these. Cabbage Patch kids while the manager of. the department store is screaming at. them holding a baseball bat. It's one of.

the worst forms of crowd management. anyone's ever attempted ever. And it was. caught on film and you got to see it. yourself. >> Yeah, he was uh uh he wasn't doing his. best work that day. I think that's. [laughter] we can all agree on that. He. >> really wasn't agreed. >> A lot of times the the um the problems. were so big that they didn't even want. people in the stores. So they would say. like we can't have a another fist fight. in here. So, what you do is you can. arrive and get a coupon and then you go.

around back to the loading dock and. we'll distribute them there. Um, the. secondary market started booming. There. were actual stores that were buying them. up and then marking them up and then. there was the black market that really. really marked them up. Um, >> right. And this was not WKRP in. Cincinnati, but it was uh very much in. that rich tradition of of DJs um. [clears throat]. kind of conning people into acting like. fools. And this happened in Milwaukee, Wisconsin when um some local DJs there.

said there's going to be a B26 bomber. plane and it's going to drop $2,000. over the Brewers baseball stadium and. all you got to do is show up with your. baseball glove to catch these babies and. hold up your credit card so the pilot. can take a picture and charge you for. it. And of course, this is the dumbest. thing you've ever heard, but that still. didn't stop Yeah. uh a couple of dozen. people from showing up with their. baseball glove and credit card. >> Yeah. And -7 degree windchill, which is.

very cold if you're in the centigrade. parts of the world. That's very cold. Um. >> they're used to it, >> I guess. So, um but the the Yeah, the. fact that people would would do that is. is like I I double checked to make sure. that that wasn't an urban legend and it. definitely is not. Like that was that. really did happen in Milwaukee in 1983. That was like the the level the craze. reached. Um, and what's really to Kico's. credit is they managed to keep the party.

going for a full another year because in. Christmas 1984, Cabbage Patch Kids were. again the must-have toy. And in just. 1984 alone, not 1983 Christmas season, 1984, that year, they sold $2 billion. worth of Cabbage Patch Kids in 1984. money. >> Yeah. I mean, this was, I think, one of. the things that made it truly unique is, uh, like I said, the Rubik's Cube was. really hot for a few years, but. generally, as these things go, it's sort.

of like the you can count on the one. Christmas season. If you're overlapping. to the next Christmas season, that is a. grand slam home run as far as toys go. >> Absolutely. So, one of the one of the. outcomes of that of of being a toy that. manage manages to span two Christmas. seasons that that thoroughly um is they. become, you know, iconic uh and they. start popping up in other places like um. there was one named Christopher Xavier.

who's a very famous Cabbage Patch Kid, I. guess, as as Cabbage Patch Kids can be. famous. Um, and he actually rode on the. space shuttle uh on a on a genuine legit. NASA space shuttle mission in 1985. Um, and that reminds me, Chuck, have you. seen the the mini doc about um about the. Challenger? >> No, not yet. Is it good? >> Oh boy, it is really good. I mean, it's. a it's a high high caliber documentary. to begin with, but then like the the. emotionality that it manages to to.

dredge up is really it's a really well. done documentary in every every way. I. highly recommend it. >> Where's that uh showing? >> That one's on uh Netflix, I believe. I'm. almost positive. And I think it's just. called Challenger and then probably. Colon something. But um it's good. It. was It's by uh I think JJ isn't Bad. Robot JJ Abrams production company. Yeah, >> they did it. They were one of the. companies that that handled it. But it. was it's very good. >> I did watch Anola Holmes on your.

recommendation. >> Yes. What' you think? >> I liked it a lot. It was good. It was. just a good, breezy, light, fun movie to. watch, which is just what we needed the. night we watched it. >> It for sure. And And but it was smart, too, wasn't it? >> Yeah, it was it was smart enough. And. she's just great. Millie Bobby Brown is. uh she's just she's got a lot of. personality and lovable charisma. So, she's she's great to watch and it's fun. to see her outside of playing 11 uh with. all her personality able to come out.

like that. >> Right. Yeah. Well, I'm very glad that. you liked it because I think we would. have had some sort of awkward wedge. between us for the rest of our lives. [laughter]. >> had you not. >> You haven't seen the octopus doc yet? No. >> I did. >> Oh, okay. So, I think if if we're going. to talk about octopus, my octopus. teacher, you should just turn down your. volume for about a minute and uh you. won't have it spoiled. >> All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. And. actually, I think that guy is terrible. I think he's a terrible human being for. not rescuing his companion friend for on.

two different occasions. >> Really? >> Yes. And I know that he's a. documentarian, so they're not supposed. to interfere. I've seen Drop Deadad. Gorgeous. I know the rules. But this is. different. He crossed the line. He. crossed boundaries when he became. friends with that octopus. He stopped. being a documentarian. Started being its. friend and then he as its friend wasn't. there for his friend when it was. attacked not once but twice. And I. really dislike that guy for that reason.

>> Oh, interesting. Well, I don't concur. But I guess uh that's part of the beauty. of that movie. You can have different. different takes. >> So, but there's not a gulf between us, a. wedge between us now, is there? >> I mean, did you hate the documentary? No, I I otherwise thought it was. amazing. >> All right. Well, then there's no golf. >> Amazing. It really was. Really was. great. Except for the that one thing. times two. >> All right. No wedge. >> Um, so let's see back to Cabbage Patch. Kids. There's another kind of landmark. they reached in 1992 when they became I.

think maybe Christopher Xavier became. the official mascot of the US Olympic. team and got to go to Barcelona with. him. >> Yeah. I mean, this is. >> is pretty impressive. This is 10 plus. years after these things were the hot. ticket, you know. Um, which is crazy. crazy time. Um, they were on a postage. stamp. Um, eventually, of course, though, his star, well, not his star, there was more than Christopher Xavier, but their collective star was going to. fade. Uh, like all toys and all dolls,

uh, we've all seen Toy Story, we knows. what hap, we know what happens in the. end. Um, >> yeah, >> it never completely went away, though. They, you know, Kico eventually was. like, you know, we got to offload these. guys. Uh, we're going to sell it. Uh, we're in the video game industry like. big time. Um, and so we got to uh. >> Have you heard of Pac-Man? [laughter]. >> Well, the video game industry starts. tanking. So, they're trying to, I guess, recoup some money on their investment. So, they sell the Cabbage Patch Kid.

license. >> Uh, and then, you know, this is not. before trying a few things. They tried. like talking cabbage patch kids uh and. stuff like that, but eventually uh they. went bankrupt in the 80s and the license. moved on to different people over the. years. Uh Mattel, Hasbro, uh Toys R Us, and then right now it's owned by. Playalong Inc. which it just seems like. those are seems like there's a lot of. toy companies named weird things like. that now. >> I agree. I agree. And I find it.

unsettling like their slogan should be. we're watching you. [laughter]. >> It just seems like we talk about those a. lot. Like there's still the giants like. Hasbro and Mattel, but I feel like when. we've done our toy podcast, it seems. like the newer ones, they don't have. these sort of name brands that you that. you think of as toys. >> No, I know. They all sound like Russian. fronts. It's really weird and unsettling. and kind of off-putting. >> And all the C's are K's. It's really.

strange. >> [laughter]. >> It's very sinister. So, yeah, along the. along the lines, like all of these. companies were like, "We've got to. figure out a way to to capture lightning. in a bottle again." Um, a second time. That just doesn't happen. It's hard. enough the first time. Um, and so they. tried different things. Like you said, Kico tried that talking one, didn't. work. Um, I think Hasbro had one that. swam, which is kind of impressive. Sure. >> Um, and then Mattel had one that they. had to withdraw. It was called um.

cabbage patch snack time kids. And they. uh these things would like eat like they. came with like French fries or something. and you'd put like the French fry in. their mouth and they'd start chewing and. it the French fry would go down their. throat and actually come out the back of. their head and fall into their backpack. and then you could feed it to them. again, [laughter] which is great and. fine. But if you're a little kid and you. get your fingers in there or your hair. in there, that Cabbage Patch doll is. just going to keep eating and eating and. you're going to start screaming and your. parents are going to be like, "I don't. want this doll anymore. Give me my money.

back." Yeah. And these things also. declined in quality. Um I think in the. mid '9s, Mattel shrunk them even more. down to 14 in and they were like, "Forget these cloth bodies even. We're. going to make the whole thing vinyl." Uh. and people didn't like that at all. And. it took, I think the 20th anniversary in. 2003, it took Toys R Us, uh, who took. over the rights at that point to, um, jack these things back up to 18 in. Um,

they had cloth bodies. Uh, I think they. had an 18-in and a 20-in. And then they. they finally brought back those cloth. bodies, which were a big deal. And they, um, debuted them at their flagship store. in New York City. And they sort of. recaptured the magic a little bit. Uh, and it's about this time, and I think a. year later is when uh, Playalong uh, licensed it, but it's about this time. that people started buying them again a. little bit for nostalgia, like kids that. grew up with them were now buying them.

for their kids. >> And I think, you know, they sold okay. It's nothing like they were at first, but they're still around. >> No. Yeah. And I Play Along, Inc., if. that is their real name, was very wise. to basically recreate the original 1983. style Cabbage Patch Kids. Like they're. basically indistinguishable from the. ones that that the people who are buying. them now for their kids had when they. were kids. >> And it's like you said, it's all. nostalgia and they're they're doing. pretty good trade on it with without.

having to reinvent the wheel. >> That's right. Uh a little quick stat. before we take a break that is. remarkable. Uh over the past 32 years, there have been 130 million of these. babies born. Uh which would, if they. were real little people, it would make. them the 10th most populous country in. the world. Uh with one being born every. 6.8 seconds. Uh but having said that, we're going to take a little break and. right after this, we are going to tell. you the true origin story of the little.

people. [singing]. >> [music]. [singing]. [music]. [music]. >> Okay, Chuck, I'm curious. Why did you. say true like that? >> Well, if you listen to the show a year.

ago, it's already ruined. But, uh, we. didn't go into that much depth. Um, here's what really happened, though. >> Xavier Roberts, uh, ripped off a lady. [laughter]. That's the easiest way to say it. There. was a very, uh, kind-hearted, soft-spoken folk artist named Martha. Nelson Thomas. Went to art school in the. 70s. She experimented with the same. exact German soft sculpture uh, molding, and she created what was called little. doll babies. If you Google Martha Nelson.

Thomas little dolls and you see this. very f now famous picture uh when it, you know, hasn't been swept under the. rug by Xavier Roberts people and maybe. Kico's people, this black and white. picture of this woman surrounded by what. are clearly and obviously Cabbage Patch. kids. >> Yes. And there's actually, funny enough, there's another famous picture of Xavier. Roberts taken um probably about 10 years. after that, and he's surrounded by. straight up Cabbage Patch kids, you.

know, with the vinyl heads and. everything. But that that the fact that. that picture was taken of Martha Nelson. to Nelson Thomas in 1975. is photographic documentary evidence. that she is the person who came up with. Cabbage Patch Kids. not Cabbage Patch. Kids, but what Cabbage Patch Kids were. based on. And if that were it, if that. were the photo, if that was the only. evidence whatsoever, you'd be like, "That's a I don't know. People can have. similar ideas." You know, there's only.

one, you know, old German technique. called needle molding. Other people. could have found it. But that is not the. only evidence. And in fact, Xavier. Roberts has gone on public record saying. that he was inspired by Martha Nelson. Thomas, but he changed it enough. But if. you go and look at the actual story and. the facts along the way, and there's. actually a pretty good 16minute long. Vice documentary on this whole thing, >> um, that that you will see that it went.

way beyond him just being inspired by. Martha Nelson Thomas's work. And in. fact, like you said, he basically ripped. her off. >> Yeah. So, he um from what I could tell, and there's a bunch of different sort of. versions of this uh online, but from. what I saw is they actually did have an. agreement early on that he would sell. these for her. Uh he said, "Hey, these. are great. Can I take some of these to. my gift shops and um sell them for you, and I think I could sell a lot more than. you could?" And for a little while, they. did have an agreement, but uh as it.

turns out, he ended up marking them up. and charging too much money. And she. wasn't happy about that. She was like, "No, these shouldn't cost $40. It's, you. know, it's 1978 for God's sake, and. that's a doll.". >> Uh, and he's like, "Yeah, but. >> what do you think this is? UniCoy State. Park. >> They're handmade." And, uh, you know, you should put a value on on your. talents. And they had a disagreement. about that. And she said, "You know. what? Forget it. I don't want you to. sell these anymore." He follows up with.

a letter saying, "Well, you know what? if you don't let me sell your dolls, I'm. he basically said, I'm just going to. start making my own. And that's exactly. what he did. >> Supposedly, he wrote her a letter, and I. don't remember who mentions it in the. Vice documentary, but basically, they. said that in the letter, he said, "If I. can't sell your dolls, I will sell. something just like them." And she. apparently was like, "Whatever." And. just went her own way. She was satisfied. to have her dolls back. And probably. thought she was done with the matter. And then supposedly one of her friends.

said, "Hey, I saw your little doll. babies uh for sale at the Atlanta. airport. Way to go." She said, "I'm not. selling these at the Atlanta airport.". And apparently that's when she knew she. had a big problem on her hands and found. out that Xavier Roberts had come up with. the Little People dolls um that were. just the spitting image of her little. doll babies. >> Yeah. So she um filed a lawsuit that. went on for for years. I think by the. time they were selling out in stores in. 1983, she was about 7 years into this.

lawsuit. And for her, it wasn't uh she. asked for I think a million dollars. Uh. but she said it wasn't about the money. She was like, I don't want to see this. >> um as a commodity and I don't want to be. ripped off and I don't want this guy to. come along and basically not have the. same respect for these little dolls that. I had. And if you look at the court. case, you think, you know, open and. shut. She's got this picture from 75. They had a prior relationship. She's got. this letter uh that says where he.

basically says he's going to rip her. off, but she didn't copyright these. things. And you would have had to. copyright because they were all handmade. and they were all um I guess unique unto. themselves. You would have had to. copyright and sign or stamp each doll. And she didn't want to do that and he. had no problem doing it. cars. Little. Chuck has an Xavier Roberts hand. signature on his butt if you pull down. his little corduroy shorts. >> Yeah. It's one of the famous things. about Cabbage Patch Kids, aside from. their distinctive faces, is that each.

one of them has Xavier Robert's. signature stamped onto its butt. And I. guess Martha Nelson Thomas was like, there's no place to put a signature on a. child. And these are like children to. me. That's why I I adopt them out rather. than sell them. Um, so I'm not going to. sign this. I'm not going to copyright. them. that basically s you would think. it would have sunk her case and after um. almost eight years um Xavier Roberts. finally said okay fine let's settle this. I suspect it had to do with um he sold.

out at some point in the 80s he sold his. his portion and I would guess he. probably needed that court case to go. away to finalize that sale and for. whatever the reason in 1985 he was. suddenly ready to settle And they. settled for an undisclosed sum that. apparently Martha Nelson Thomas was was. satisfied with. >> Yeah. And he also said, "Hey lady, you. say you can't copyright these things, you can sign it right next to their. little butthole,

>> right?" He sounded cochnney there for a. second. >> Cocknney. >> Like I started to get nervous like, "Oh. my god, why does he sound cochnney?" And. then you pulled it out with the real. Appalachia Mountain folk twist at the. end there. >> Yeah. So he uh he settled. it was. enough money to put her kids through. college. She said, uh, it's still sort. of a sad story to me that, you know, that that this, you know, man came along. and ripped off this lady's design and. then later on complained that he was. getting ripped off. He complained about. knockoffs. >> and said, you know, my point is not not.

take my product and my creation and. tarnish it. >> Yeah. which was pretty audacious because. he said this like you know I believe it. right when he was settling with this. other case in which a part of the. settlement was he had to acknowledge. that that he had taken her idea um and. [clears throat] to for him to to be. complaining about this on TV it was a. little audacious especially if you know. that you know the full story but the. even though it was a open secret or even.

a widely known tale in the toy industry. and in some parts of the press. Even. still today, everybody thinks of Xavier. Roberts as the the creator of Cabbage. Patch Kids. And technically, he was um. because he he came up with Cabbage Patch. Kids and Martha Nelson Thomas came up. with um Little Doll Babies. >> Yeah. And he sold it to uh well, he. didn't come up with Cabbage Patch Kids. He sold it to Pac-Man and Pac-Man named. them Cabbage Patch Kids. >> Yeah, I guess so. I hadn't thought about.

that. So, one of the groups he was. complaining about was Topps Trading. Cards. Topps Trading Cards around the. the still in the height of the um. Cabbage Patch Kid craze in 1985 came out. with one of the greatest parodies. anyone's ever come out with, the beloved. Garbage Pale Kids series. >> Yeah, I didn't uh I wasn't into these. I. was a little too old. I certainly I was. I was 14. And I certainly remember them. in uh the Zeitgeist and I knew it was a.

very big deal. But this was probably. more for kids probably around your age. I imagine you were probably into these, right? >> I loved garbage pail kids. I believe you. had a pretty impressive garbage pail kid. collection herself, too. >> Oh, really? Yeah. >> And she actually Yeah. She actually. bought me a um a couple of garbage pail. kids I have somewhere. Um I think one is. Squash Josh. I can't remember the other. one, but they are for people who don't. know what a garbage pail kit is, go look. up um gpk.com.

and I think it's like geek. kay.com. I'm not sure, but um they have. every single series scanned so you can. see all 15 series that came out between. 1985 and 1988. And they're just awesome. But they're basically like. um if garbage if cabbage patch kids were. meant to get us used to what mutant. offspring of nuclear war survivors would. look like. Um garbage pale kids were the.

mutated version of that. >> Yeah, that's a good way to say it. They. were they were deformed and they were. plagued and diseased and. >> uh they had names like Adam Bomb and. Bony Tony and I guess Squash Josh and uh. >> Roommy Yumi. I don't know. [laughter]. >> No, they they didn't they didn't have. names for everyone, but um it was uh it. was a big deal. They sold a ton of them. and Xavier Roberts was was not happy.

with this and I think ended up um in the. lawsuit being successful in getting them. just to change enough to where it didn't. look like it was officially tied to the. Cabbage Patch Kids. >> Yeah. Like they had the C, you know, where how it says like on the box for. the Cabbage Patch Kid, it's like in a. banner kind of like semicircle banner. They had that originally as Garbage Pail. Kids. They had to turn that into a. straight bar. They made them look less. like lifelike and more like plastic.

dolls in the later series. There were a. few changes, but I mean it was still. pretty clear what the whole thing was a. riff off of. But one thing I didn't. realize is that one of the um art. directors who helped conceptualize. Garbage Pail Kids from the outset was. Art Spiegelman who created Mouse. >> Yeah. >> Did you know that? I I mean I've heard. of Art Spiegelman, but I really don't. know anything about him, so I didn't. know that. But I know the name. >> I've not read Mouse, but I know it's. like it's like a like a just a legendary.

graphic novel um about fascism, but that. guy helped create Garbage Pale Kids, just a couple years before he created. Mouse. >> Amazing. And there was a a bad TV show. that eventually only aired in Europe. there was a bad movie. Uh that is was. pretty legendarily bad. But um it it was. a big deal though. They sold a ton of. them. They didn't quite have the. spin-off power. >> of uh the CPKs, but the GPK's did okay. for themselves.

>> Yeah. I mean, like that really goes to. show you just how big Cabbage Patch Kids. were that it could sustain a cottage. industry for a parody even. That's how. big Cabbage Patch Kids were in that. So, hats off to Cabbage Patch Kids. I. can't wait to talk about them again next. year in another episode. >> That'll be great. >> We'll figure it out. We'll spend 2021. figuring out how to do that, Chuck. And. in the meantime, everybody, since we're. thinking about how to talk about Cabbage. Patch Kids some more, it's time for.

listener mail. Uh, that's right. Before we do listener. mail real quick, I just want to give a. shout out to the Budge family. uh not. [music] really going to get into what's. going on with them, but just want them. to know that uh we're thinking about. them and [music] sending them lots of. love and support over the internet. airwaves. Uh but this email is called uh. oh, I know. I'm going to call it the. bee. Uh this is this is about beavers.

again. And it starts out as this is. seriously not a please read me on the. air email. And that's a pretty good way. to get on the air, by the [snorts] way. Uh thanks for the amazing show. Been a. listener uh since they were poultry 20. minutes. Love everyone. You keep me. company while walking, driving, cleaning, cooking, and providing an. endless source of interesting topics for. my English students in Spain. Uh I kind. of think Chuck is my podcast soulmate as. we grow up in much the same. circumstances around the same age. We. have very similar cultural outlook on.

different things. Uh I do have a small. difference of opinion though. Your. Bigfoot podcast was great. Uh, and I was. happy to hear you say the possibility. exists. Did we say that? I guess. >> Yeah. I think we were I I don't know if. it was we so much as you. >> Yeah, maybe. So, uh, but a while back. you were. >> I'm just teasing. I think it was we. >> You were adamant that Nessie does not. exist. Buddy, show Nessie some love. Uh, wouldn't it be amazing if she did exist?

Uh, so she has her fingers crossed on. that. But the real reason she wrote in, [music] she listened to the beaver. episode and came across uh Bee the. Beaver. So just get online and Google. Bea. It was this beaver [music] that was. found um I think abandoned by its. parents and then adopted as a young baby. [music] and then raised for a while to. eventually be put maybe a wildlife. center or something. But the long and. short of it is Bee makes uh dams in. their house. So, there are all these.

videos of Bee dragging stuff uh into. this one specific doorway. >> that Bee is trying to dam up and like. dragging a a shoe rack, uh pillows, um. tissue boxes, like anything Bee can get. a hold of in his little paws and teeth, he'll drag over to this doorway and try. and dam up. And it's really one of. [music] the the cutest, funniest things. I've ever seen. Yeah, it is very cute. cuz he looks like should this go here or. maybe a little bit to the left. Okay,

that's all right there. Or like when he. brought the pillow over, he's like, "Oh, this is very useful. I can just squish. this into [music] place." It was very. cute to watch him do that. >> It is amazing. And that email, by the. way, was from Carrie Keley. >> Thanks, Carrie. That was a great email. And yes, way to get it on the air by. saying it's not meant to be on [music]. the air. Um, we fall for stuff like that. all the time. And if you want to try to. make us fall for something, have at us. You can send us an email to stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com.

Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from. iHeart [music] Radio, visit the iHeart. Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. you listen to your favorite shows.