SYSK Gets Weird Playlist: Doppelgängers: Hey you, you're me! | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. I think I even say in the episode that I. remember learning about doppelgangers. from those Time Life books about the. paranormal back when I was a kid. Well, fast forward to when I'm a grown-up, aka. now. I was really glad to learn that. they're an actual thing. There are. people walking around who have a twin. [music] that they're in no way related. to, and the stories behind them tend to. be very interesting. I'm out. This is. the last one for me. So, let me say. thanks for listening to our playlist.

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is stuff you should know. [music]. The day after Labor Day edition, which. Chuck loves. >> Uh, yeah. You know, Emily [music] showed. me that article that informed part of.

this. >> Mhm. >> episode the other day. >> Yeah. >> And we'll get to it, but I started. looking at this photographers. doppelganger photo series. >> Yeah. >> And boy, some of those are crazy. similar. >> Yeah. Yeah. What about the two bears. with their shirts off? >> Yeah, >> I thought. >> those guys struck me as extremely close. >> The uh the two women with the bangs and. the black tank tops looked like.

identical twins to me. I could not tell. them apart. >> Yeah, I I feel like we shouldn't tease. anybody anymore. There's a guy and like. you said we'll get to him um in a little. bit but or he'll figure in in a little. bit I should say but he's a Montreal I. guess a Kebeekqua photographer Francois. Brunell and for 20 years he's been uh. assembling pictures of doppelgangers. people who already knew they had a. doppelganger and wrote in doppelgangers. he's looked for and found on the street. and he brings them together into his.

studio and photographs them together but. he does some like really cool stuff with. it. It's not just like here you stand. here and you stand next to them. The way. that he poses them, dresses them and. everything. It like it creates like a. sense of intimacy between them. It makes. you think you're looking at identical. twin photos. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, some of them. people favor one another and then when. you have them styled to look alike and. posed alike, that informs what you're. seeing. But a handful of them it was. they look so much like identical twins. that it's just it's weird to think that.

you could walk down the street one day. and meet someone who looks exactly like. you. >> Yeah. And I mean like that is got to be. pretty eerie. And luckily one of the. great things about social media is that. people can post their random encounters. You got a phone with a camera on it. You. got access to social media through that. phone. You can just snap a picture of. you and your doppelganger. post it to. the internet and let everyone go crazy. Uh, and that does happen it seems like. from time to time, but this dude's whole. jam, it's called um I'm not a lookalike. with an exclamation point. It sounds.

like a a Disney movie from the 60s or. something. Um, but that's that's a. Francois Brunell's 20-year series. >> Yeah. And not just, "Hey, Chuck, you. look like every tubby guy with a beard. and glasses." It's like that's that's. lazy. >> Sure. Uh, I think when you're in the. public eye, people tend to do things. like that to say, "Okay, you look like. all of these people." Um, we're talking. like real look alikes. Um, >> right. >> Which I, you know, I think I've gotten a.

couple here and there over the years. that that I was like, "Okay, I could see. that for sure." But, um, doppelgangers. are different. >> Yeah. So, doppelganger, if you haven't. just surmised already, it's a German. word at its origin. And um it's not one. of those really clever German words. It. really just means doublegoer or a. different interpretation is double. walker. And it's not some super old like. like medieval word. It was actually. coined at the end of the 18th century by.

um an author named Jean Paul, which is. an unlikely German name if you ask me, but he wrote a book called Sibas. Yeah, Sibas. I nailed it. Um, and uh, that book was. about a man who had a doppelganger, right? >> Yeah. I think John Paul's hiding. something with that name. >> I do too. [laughter] He's actually a. double. >> I think there's a dusseldorf at the end. or something that he left off. [laughter]. >> That's right. >> Uh, yeah. So, he wrote about it in that.

novel, but um, as Livia is keen to point. out, Livia helped us with this one. The, uh, he sort of mixes up the words when. he was actually talking about a. lookalike human. He used the word with a. t doppled ganganger. >> Uh but did use the word doppelganger in. there as a as a meal with two courses. being served together. So I don't know. if things just got a little confused or. people thought it was just fine to drop. the tea, but doppelganger became the.

eventual word that we use for, you know, a nonrelated lookalike. And that's I. don't know if we pointed that out, the. obvious thing here is that you're not. not related to these people at all. >> Yeah. And the other thing about a. doppelganger is again like you said, it's not like, oh, you bear a passing. resemblance or you favor one another. Like you're as close to the person's. double body double as you can get and. the closer you are, the more of a. doppelganger you are basically, >> right? >> But um but Jean Paul, I can't say his. name any other way. Um he coined those.

terms. So it's funny that he kind of got. it wrong. Everybody else is like, "No, we're going to drop the tea like you. said." But the fact that he coined the. term doppelganger doesn't mean he. invented the concept. It's actually a. much older concept. It just didn't have. the same name that we use now. Um, apparently there was a longstanding um. superstition in England, in Germany, dating back, I think, to the medieval. age, maybe before Chuck, where if you. saw your doppelganger three times, it.

meant you were about to die. And that's. still a I think people still kind of. believe that one. >> Yeah. And that's I mean there are all. kinds of old pieces of folklore in just. about every country you can explore that. has some sort of and it's usually not if. you find your doppelganger then you know. good luck will come your way. It always. seems like it's some kind of uh spooky. negative thing will happen whether you. see them three times. >> or whether uh I mean there was one I. think in the Norse uh mythology uh where.

a spirit appears. This one's just a. little weird. It appears. >> just like you, but it it beats you to. wherever you're going. So, if you're. traveling on a journey, your. doppelganger would beat you there, and. people think that you would have arrived. earlier. Uh, I don't know if that's the. solves tardiness for the [laughter]. in North mythology, but that one's not. super evil, but it's usually, especially. when you get into literature, uh, some. sort of, you know, evil force or evil.

twin that's come along to wreck things. for you. >> Yeah. And that Norse one that arrives, I. just want to put a button on that. because I did a little research. It um, it's called the Varduger. And the reason. I know how to pronounce it is because I. looked up what the O with the slash is. pronounced like and it's the same thing. as a O with the umlout. >> Yeah. >> I didn't know that before. Did you? >> Yeah. >> Well, you you might be a little more of. a metal fan than me. [laughter]. >> It's cool looking. Just like the llout.

>> Super cool. I think it's cooler than the. umlout. It's got like a slash through. it, you know, like take that O whereas. the OML's like I'm adorning this O. It's. a little different. >> All right. Uh, Edgar Allen Poe wrote a. story called William Wilson. Uh, sort of. like I mentioned before about, you know, evil things happening. A narrator meets. a boy at school. Uh, and this one had. the same name, I'm presuming, William. Wilson, >> otherwise it'd be a weird title. And. this boy though only speaks in a.

whisper. So, it seems like all through. literature it's always some sort of a. creepy shadowy figure. >> Yeah. There's also Dusttoyki um put kind. of a spin on it where uh he introduced a. doppelganger to the main character in a. a novel called or a novella I think. called the double and I love this in it. the doppelganger is like a more likable. version of the main character and ends. up breaking the main character character. mentally, which I could totally see. that, you know, like if this this.

impostor comes along or this other. version of you comes along and people. are like, I like you a lot more. Yeah. It reminds me, have you seen that Paul. Rudd showing with yourself? >> No. >> I I don't know how it escaped, but they. did a season of it in 2019. didn't. follow up on it, but he plays himself. and his doppelganger to great comedic. effect, but it's also like really. fascinating and interesting. It's a. really great show. It's on Netflix. Well, that's the other thing that and. we'll talk about some more in history, but of course with TV, uh, often times.

it's flipped to a more fun thing and. it's played for laughs whether. >> you know I don't think Thre's Company. had a doppelganger episode, but it. wouldn't surprise me because it can be. played for sort of mixed identity high. jinks as well. >> Totally. Like a one where Mr. Furley was. into Jack, but it was really his. doppelganger. >> Yeah. And I mean it'd probably be like. his twin brother who came to visit in. that case, but. >> this still counts. An unknown twin still. in the cannon counts as a doppelganger.

>> Do you think? >> Well, yeah, I think so. >> All right. Well, you just negated what I. said that they're not related, but. >> Well, okay, that's true. Once you find. out, here's the thing. This actually. proves your point, Chuck. Once the. characters find out, oh, it's a twin, mystery solved. No longer a. doppelganger. It becomes the twin. But. up to that point when they're like. crossing paths with one another and. never in the same room at the same time. >> doppelganger. Yes, exactly. >> But Furley doesn't have a brother.

>> Or does he? >> Why is he acting so weird? >> Uh there have been some true historical. figures over the years that bought into. this stuff. Um Abraham Lincoln, uh there. he and uh his wife, they they had all. kinds of kind of uh interesting. uh beliefs. It was the age of. spiritualism. >> Yeah, for sure. So, you have to take. that in consideration, I think. But um. Lincoln supposedly saw his uh image.

three times, I think, in the mirror in. 1860, which uh what was his wife's name? I can't Mary Todd. >> Mary Todd. >> Mary Todd said, uh you know, you're. going to serve two terms as president. That's what that means. But you're going. to die before the end of the second. term. and he said, "Well, can I tear?". But see, I take issue with some with. some of these listed historically. because they're more ghostly specters, >> right, >> than real human doppelgangers.

>> So, John Dunn's um story is strictly. billocation. I would not call it a. doppelganger one where he saw his wife a. few times while he was in Paris and she. was back in England and she was actually. ill and their child had died. By. location, doesn't count. But Percy Bice. Shelly, he saw his doppelganger and died. a few weeks later in a sailing accident. I would say that one counts in the lore. And then Katherine the Great was pretty. good, too, right? >> Yeah. And I think Percy Bl's uh. doppelganger had a t-shirt on that said, "I'd rather be sailing.".

>> That's right. >> Which made it even weirder. >> No, he had his t-shirt said no plates. because that was his third third choice. >> Who was the other one? >> Uh Katherine the Great. >> Yeah, this was a real one, too, actually. Um, supposedly there was a a. servant, right, who discovered a a. double like that somehow got in there, faked their way in there and was sitting. on the throne. So, this was a case where. someone was I don't think trying to. like, you know, realistically take over. as queen, >> but at least got in there and was like,

I'm going to sit on the throne and I got. past the guards because I look like you. >> Yeah. I also saw it interpreted as like. fantasmagoric, too. >> Oh, like it didn't happen. No, that it. was like a phantom or a do like a. supernatural doppel doppelganger rather. than like a double or something like. that. >> Again, not a real doppelganger to me. >> And then my favorite one of all time, I. I've known this one since I was a kid. back when I was into the time life. mysteries books because I think that's. where I first read it, but the German. poet and philosopher Gerta, one of the.

reasons I like this anecdote is because. I love saying Gerta's name. Mhm. >> He um was riding one time from Alsace to. I want to say Dusseldorf, but I think. that's wrong, but it works, right? >> I mean, sure, it's the name of that. author. >> And he passed himself on the road and he. the other his doppelganger was wearing. some gray outfit or whatever. And then. like eight years later, he was on his. way from Duceldorf to Alsace going the. other way. And he realized he was.

wearing that same outfit that his. doppelganger had been wearing eight. years before. and he was like, "This is. pretty awesome.". >> And that was a Time Life books thing. >> Yeah, I remember it very well. >> Yeah, that sounds about right. >> I didn't know how to say Gert's name at. the time, though. So, I was like, "This. really weird thing happened to G.". [laughter]. >> Uh, all right. Maybe we should take a. little break now that we've sort of. given some past examples of what may or. may not be doppelgangers, and we'll talk. about real doppelgangers, real life. humans walking around that look like you.

right after this. And so I give Joshua. [music] shock. [music]. All right. So we mentioned uh the. photographer um Francois Brunell who's. been doing this project. It's called I'm. not a lookalike where they where he.

takes pictures of these people. >> I'm sorry, Chuck. There's an exclamation. point at the end of that. >> Yeah, I'm not a lookalike. [laughter]. Uh I encourage people to go check this. out when they're in a safe space and. you're like not driving or whatever to. look at some of these photos. >> because it's it's amazing. I mean, some. of them, like I said, look to my eye. like identical twins. The other two sort. of um gentlemen probably in their 60s uh. with the little mustache. Did you see. those guys? the shirtless ones. >> No, the picture I saw they had on like.

little uh sort of like news boy caps. >> I don't know if I saw those guys. >> They look ex I mean they look like. identical twins and um. >> so cool. >> Those are the ones that This is the. article that Emily sent me where it. talked about that project and then it. got into a really interesting study. because if you think well you know what. is a doppelganger? I've always since I. was a kid, I've always sort of um. realized that there are only so many. facial combinations you can have.

>> And with the amount of We talked about. this over the years in the show, too, like. >> over the years and through history, uh. especially seems to happen if you're. looking through like yearbooks from like. the 40s and 50s and 60s, you'll like see. people that look like people you know or. like yourself. Mhm. >> There are just only so many ways you can. rearrange a face until you're bound at. some point to get someone who maybe. favors somebody a little bit or even. more or to the point where they look. just alike. Uh and so you might think, well, what does that have to say about.

what's going on inside? Is there any. anything to DNA? And they looked into. that, right? >> Yeah. I guess Brunell's work caught the. attention of a um a researcher named. Manel Estellar from Spain from the. Carreras Leukemia Research Institute who. said I I want to try to figure this out. and these people are like a perfect. population sample. So he took I think 32. pairs of doppelgangers uh ran them. through three different facial. recognition programs and half of them I. guess 16 of the pairs as far as the AI.

was concerned in the programs they were. identical twins that's what the AI took. them for in all three programs right so. they took those people and they analyzed. their genomes and they found actually. these people have a lot of similar genes. and even though they're not related that. was another part of the study they went. through and made sure that these people. weren't like there was some unknown. relation that they had to one another. They didn't. They were as genetically.

unrelated as two random strangers would. be on the street, but they shared some. some very similar genes in some key. places, especially like facial. construction. >> Yeah. And they were also uh and again. this doesn't like lessen the study any. to me, but uh they were generally from. the same country uh or the same ethnic. background. Um although I did see uh it. it uh gender varied because there was. one where it was a man and a woman who. looked a lot alike uh in those photos. that they put together which is pretty.

interesting. >> Yeah. >> But they looked into how they matched up. uh I think with their microbiome uh. epigenetically which is basically how. your behaviors in your environment is. going to affect your genes and then just. your straight up genome. And what they. found out was they did share a lot of. what are called SNPs, single nucleotide. polymorphisms. uh which are the variations in our DNA. that create most of the gen uh genetic.

variation that people have with one. another. So they shared uh a lot of them. and I I wish we would have gotten like. the raw numbers because all it says is. like you know they shared many SNPs. whereas I'd like to see sort of the. actual data which I couldn't get to. >> Um but what they did find was that. epigenetically and with their. microbiomes. they were basically random. So it was. only genetically that they shared. something. Well, yeah. And they said, 'Well, actually, I think this is.

probably what accounts for a lot of the. differences in identical twins. Like, people look at identical twins and. they're like, "Oh, you're identical.". But if you really start to look at them. closely, you're like, "Actually, there's. a lot more differences than you'd think. between them." And even though they. share the same genes, I think 99% of the. same DNA, what makes identical twins. slightly different is in their. epiggenome. And this this study. basically found the same thing with. doppelgangers. they can share a lot of. similar genes that that give them the.

same facial traits or builds or um I. think even habits they found a lot of. them like if one smoked the other was. likely to smoke or you know they carried. their weight about the same way um but. they found that that like you said the. the differences were found in their. epiggenome and I don't know if I know. they tested it but I didn't see that. their microbiome might have provided. some differences too it's basically. nature versus nurture or more to the. point it's like nature and nurture. working together to make us slightly. different even when we're basically. bound to look the same genetically.

>> Yeah, I think the microbiome was the. same as uh the epigenetic finding which. was uh I think the quote was it. generally wasn't any closer than two. randos. >> Gotcha. >> That's what they said in the paper. Randos. >> They did. [laughter]. They did. I'm trying to find real quick. the um. >> the data. >> the number of SMPPS. >> Um I can't find it that quick. There's a. lot of numbers and weird like uh like. capital C lowerase P [laughter] capital.

G. I'm like I I don't know what that is. But I will tell you this. I looked up. those those older guys in the news caps, >> right? >> They are spitting image. And not only. are they spitting image of one another, they're spitting image of the uh Lennox. air conditioning man. [laughter]. >> They look exactly like that guy down to. the hat. Well, I guess if that guy ever, you know, leaves the Earth and uh. they've got two backups. >> I mean, what's it called when you get. three doppelgangers together?

>> Oh, a tropelganger, >> I guess. So, >> uh, what I'd be curious to see is if, and maybe I'll look more just for my. own, uh, funsies into, uh, the. photographers's project because what I'm. curious about is if these like how these. people get along and if they like formed. friendships, if they liked each other, if they had similar interests, you know, that's that's pretty fascinating to me. >> I think so, too. And again, like that's. that's the kind of stuff that can take a. a real a real turn, I guess, depending.

on how you were raised or even like, right, you know, were you raising your. power lines? Great. That means you're. into baseball cards, that kind of thing. Um, that we just haven't put our finger. on yet. But it does seem like, you know, it's becoming clearer and clear. It's. not just genetics. It's not just. epigenetics. It's it's all of that stuff. put together. And it seems like so. wildly unattainable that information um. because it's so complicated and there's. so many variables and so many factors. But if you step back and think about it,

there's a finite number of variables and. factors. As many as it seems to us, it's. a finite number. It's not infinite. Which means someday we could conceivably. get a grasp on exactly what makes a. person them, which I find really. exciting. You know what would be funny. is if they really got along and they. were like, "Oh my god, we have so many. similarities. We look just alike." This. is such a weird thing and they were. [snorts] having lunch and one of them. was like, "Boy, what a shame that. Hillary lost their right." And the other.

one like [laughter]. unveils a Make America Great Again. t-shirt or something, >> drops their fork, >> they just get up and part ways silently. >> Yeah, that would be the best case. scenario, I think. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Uh, so this study, um, this next. one kind of irritates me a little bit. Uh, it was from 2015 and I think was. well-intentioned, but there was an. Australian biologist named, uh, Tegan. Lucas who looked at got off to a great. start. Looked at 4,000 faces from the US.

anthro uh, anthropometric survey. database, which is something the US Army. puts together. And. >> Tegan Lucas is listening now. She's. like, "Oh, you got off to a great start. on that US anthropometric survey, Chuck.". >> Well, I think Tegan Lucas overachieved. because uh what they did was looked. across eight facial features and. calculated the like the chances that you. look just like someone else is one in a. trillion. When I see these pictures of. these doppelgangers, I'm like, there's. just no way cuz I'm looking at the.

evidence. And it turns out that Tegan. really got into like measuring the. millimeter of a nostril and stuff like. that. And the comparison, [clears throat]. >> it was just too identical. Like I think. with identical twins, you wouldn't get. that close. >> No, but I think that's what she was. going for is like, you know, would it be. possible for two identical people to be. walking around? And one of the. applications of our research is. >> if we're creating facial recognition. systems, which we've done an episode on.

before. It was pretty eerie if I. remember correctly. >> Yeah. >> But if we're creating these things, if. we're building c computers to recognize. people's faces, >> are there going to be any kind of like. false positives out there because. there's two people out there who are. that similar? And the chances are really. low unless we just keep going. population-wise. And even with the. number of people out today, I frankly. don't think it's that low of a chance. that there are two people who are. identical across eight measures of your.

face. And she wouldn't she wouldn't. reveal what the eight measures were. because apparently her work was that. like groundbreaking that they she's. like, I can't let anybody know what to. what to hide or disguise. >> Okay. But those the the point is it's. eight different dimensions and like you. said I think like nostril width, ear. length, that kind of stuff down to the. millimeter. >> And she found that it's like a one in a. trillion chance that there are two. people walking around like that. The.

thing is there's 8 billion people on the. planet and that's. >> so that means there's no doppelgangers. >> It's not well it's not close to a. trillion but it's not as far off from a. trillion as like if there were two. people on the planet. So, if you have. two people on the planet and a one in a. trillion chance that they're going to. look alike, the chance that they're. going to look alike is basically. nothing. But as you get closer to a. trillion, yeah, >> there is a really good chance that there. are going to be two people walking. around that are identical. And we're at. 8 million. So, we're at, I think, a one. in 125 chance that today on Earth there.

are two people who look exactly alike. across those eight measures. The point. is for you and me to just be looking at. stuff. >> We don't need those eight measures to be. exactly right. If they're close enough, that's when people look like. doppelgangers to you and me. But we're. not artificial intelligence. We're. sentient beings, >> right? Well, yeah. We're artificial. >> And I think we're intelligent, [laughter]. but we're are we're not those two things. together.

>> Are we artificial? [laughter]. >> Sure. I just want to try and freak. people out a little bit. >> Okay. The Joshbot and the Chuckbot are. hard at work here. >> Does not compute. >> Well, I think we what we're arriving at. is a point that we failed to make. earlier, which is there is no agreed. upon definition of what constitutes a. doppelganger. Uh like how alike do you. have to look to someone to say you're a. doppelganger, >> right? >> You know, like I look like the guy I. look like the the bass player for Jason. Isbel in the 400 unit, but is he my.

doppelganger? Probably not. Okay. So, one of the reasons why I think. people would kind of look at you and. then the bass player for. >> Jason Isbel and the 400 unit. >> Sure. [laughter] Um, and put you guys. together and said, "Oh, they really look. alike." Is because we use like shortcuts. when we're looking at at people's faces. or even just people in general. So, let's say you're both wearing the same. hat and the same you both have the. similar beard, I'm guessing.

>> Yeah. I don't want to name him because I. don't want to just keep calling him that. because I love that group. Uh his name. is Jimbo Hart. And when you look at a. picture of Jimbo Hart, he, you know, >> that's a great name, dude. >> Like, look him up. He's got the beard. He He's, you know, when I'm reading, I. got on my black room glasses. I like to. wear my hats these days, my uh, you. know, various sort of cowboy hats and. fedoras. >> Sure. >> Uh, yeah. I mean, the guy looks like me. >> Okay. So t if you put you guys together, you're both wearing the same glasses, you got a beard, you got hats on and all.

that stuff, people would be like. spitting image. Take the glasses off, shave the beard, take the hat off, and. then put you guys together. How close. would you really be? And probably not. that close. >> I can tell you I can see him without a. beard and he's not nearly as close. >> Okay. Right. So there you go. like we. make these shortcuts with our faces or. with our minds um to just kind of as. like kind of a shorthand for like oh. that's Chuck I don't have to analyze. them anymore because that uses up a lot. of brain power and energy and I'm kind.

of low on carbs today so I just know. that that's Chuck where it really turned. out to be Jimbo heart the basis for the. 400 unit. [laughter]. >> That's right. Uh right and you know. you've seen this and here's a good. example of how this can play tricks on. people. Uh, and this is just one. example. A lot of people have done that. kind of fun thing where you switch out a. a face on someone and put it on someone. else and it's like it should be obvious, but it's like it just looks like a weird.

uncanny version of that person, right? >> Uh, the one that Livia picked out was. from MIT when they put George Bush's. face on Dick Cheny's head. >> and Bill Clinton's face on Al Gore's. head. Mhm. >> That's dates the uh creation of that. particular meme or whatever it was. >> Uh the Dick Cheney one looks like you. got to look a bunch of times before you. realize that's George Bush's face. >> Um the the the Al Gore one, I mean, it's.

so clearly Clinton. That's it's just. kind of funny looking. >> But the the Bush Cheney swap actually. kind of worked. And that I guess goes to. sort of prove that you look at things. like hair and uh stuff like that as you. know that big Clinton mop or that big Al. Gore mop that he had or Cheney bald head. and that's a big clue. >> Yeah. And also like the I think one of. the foundations of this swap is that it. can't be like an egregious change, >> right? >> Like if you remember back to I think it.

was Conan that used to put Steve Bushi. eyes on different celebrities [laughter]. and see what they look like. That's an. egregious change. It's not going to. work. But. >> that was great. >> Dick Cheney and George Bush's eyes look. similar enough that if you put George. Bush's eyes on Dick Cheny's face, you're. not really going to notice because it's. not that egregious of a change. And. there was a study I think from 1977. swinging groovy study and it basically. tried to figure out how people register. faces in what order. And they found that.

first we look at the eyes, then we look. at the mouth, and then we look at the. nose. Yeah. And those are the things we. kind of take in. But I there's other. research and I think this is also kind. of like supported by the same study. Like when you look at someone's face, you don't go, "All right, let me see the. uh the eyes. I got that. Let me see the. mouth." Right. Okay. Looking at that. And then the nose. >> Makes you a serial killer. [laughter]. >> Right. Right. Oh, I want to kill that. person. No, like we just look at the. whole thing.

overlook differences between. our brains are lazy and fat. >> That's right. And it also depends on as. far as whether you might look like. someone about you know it just sort of. makes sense if you look and it's hard to. say that someone's average looking but. what we mean by that is and Livia points. out is you know you're not 6' n and have. flaming red hair and freckles like those. things will make you very much stand out.

whereas if you live in a population of. you know middle Georgia and you you know. you're a little tubby you've got a beard. you got dark hair uh and you dress a. certain way, then you might look like a. lot of people. >> Sure. And um that actually raises a uh a. recent um internet sensation. A guy. named Neil Douglas um was I think flying. to Ireland on a Ryan Air flight. >> Yeah. >> And uh went to get in his seat and saw. that there was somebody sitting in his.

seat and the person looked up and it was. his [laughter] doppelganger. It. >> was so great. >> I mean, isn't that even more bizarre? Like it wasn't in like the back of the. plane. this guy was in his seat, too, which makes it even more eerie. And so. they snapped a selfie and like posted it. and everyone just went bonkers cuz these. guys had no idea who the other one was. They weren't related, but they looked a. lot like each other. But there was this. BBC article that covered it where they. basically said, "Okay, but let's really. stop and think about this. That's. amazing." And the fact that he was in. his in the other guy's seat is even more.

amazing. But how how unlikely is it that. these two, you know, were on the same. plane? And they figured out that based. on a number of different factors like. the hair, the face, the beard, the nose, um I think the brown eyes that there's. something like maybe 80,000 people. walking around out there that look just. like them essentially. >> Yeah. 74,000. That's a lot of people. >> It is a lot of people that look. essentially like those two. Enough that. that the internet would go crazy if you.

put two of them together and said these. two are strangers and they just met uh. and and posted a picture of it. It was a. pretty fun picture because they're so. delighted clearly with seeing each. other. [laughter] And then another guy, there's a a triple picture somewhere too. of another guy that was like, "Hey, I'm. one of those 74,000. and they put all three of them close to. each other and they look pretty. similar." Um the the one uh sort of. difference here is in height is one of. the dudes was 5'7, the other was 6'3 cuz.

there's other pictures of them uh out. drinking together in Ireland. I guess. they kind of hung out and stuff which is. great. >> Well, I read they kept running into each. other and finally like, "Okay, let's go. [laughter] get a pint together." Like. they were at the same hotel and like. they they kept running into one another. so they went with it. See, if you. believe in like weird fate or. intervention, you might wonder if like. maybe I should give some thought to what. this means. Like, am I supposed to do. something special with this person? >> Right. If the movie Serendipity with.

John Cusack really spoke to you. [laughter]. >> I don't I never even saw that. You. mentioned that movie a lot. >> What happened in that movie? >> Great. I don't want to spoil it for. anybody, but. >> Was there a doppelganger? >> No. >> Okay. But it was it was they kept. running into one another and like it. just kind of was. >> oh it's just the chance of true love. over and over. >> It was a good movie. Okay. [laughter]. >> Don't they go to some uh ice cream shop. in New York? Famous ice cream shop. >> I don't remember that. I think you're. talking about Midnight Cowboy. >> Okay. Yeah, that's right.

Let's go get some ice cream. [laughter]. >> Was that was a great John Voych. Um, there was uh there was another one that. came along recently too that I think is. even better than than the other one. There's a dude named Shawn Mardle. Okay. >> Who was hanging around a pool in Vegas. and his double Chuck just look it up. Shawn Mardle doppelganger. >> His double happened to be floating along. in the same pool wearing the exact same. glasses. Apparently they were the only. two people at the pool wearing glasses.

Not sunglasses, but glasses. Glasses. Okay. >> The same glasses, same hat. They. actually do have like the same build and. same height and everything. They are the. spinning image of one another and they. were just randomly in the same pool in. Las Vegas at the same time. >> So funny. >> Yeah. >> I think my first thought uh would be. like what kind of crimes can we commit? >> Well, yeah. >> Let's rob a bank. >> Mhm. That's my first thought. >> That's terrible. We're just kidding. Um.

are we due for another break? Yeah. Or. should we wait? >> I think so. Yeah, let's take a break. All right, we'll take a break and come. back and sort this all out. [music]. [music]. >> [music]. >> So, one of the reasons I think Chuck. that um we have like a propensity to.

notice doppelgangers and also just be. just crazed by them is that we are. really really good at picking out faces. So good, in fact, that we have a region. of our brain that it's starting to. become clear is is intended exclusively. for seeing faces. And that actually. bucks the current trend of understanding. with neuroscience where different parts. of the brain get recruited to kind of. specialize in different things from. sensory input over time.

>> You put a lot of sound in in one part of. the brain, it's going to be like, "All. right, fine. I'll handle sound from now. on." Um, this it seems you're born with. this ability to recognize faces. Uh, the. region's called the fusoform gyus and. they've done some really interesting. studies about it and I think we should. actually do an entire episode on the. fusoform gyus and face face blindness. >> Hubba hubba [laughter]. know. Am I Can you tell I'm hot? >> I'm all about it. Uh, because this one.

experiment is something I would actually. like to do. Um, it's pretty freaky. They. got people uh in a room. They gave them. a mild electric current straight to the. fusoform gyus. Isn't that right? >> Yep. >> And they said, you know, we're going to. do this and just look at me and tell me. what you see. And basically, they. shapeshifted. in front of their very face when they. gave them this electrical stimulation. So, it changed their perception of what.

they look like. It didn't change their. height or weight or their clothing or. their skin color or anything like that, but it it sounds like it literally. >> in their own perception at least. transformed what their face looked like, which has got to be really weird. >> Yeah. Oh man, I can't imagine seeing. that. Especially you're seeing while. you're undergoing open brain surgery and. you're conscious and then they start. messing with parts of it. Right. >> Right. >> There was a follow-up study too that I. find just even more fascinating. They.

recruited some participants who were. blind from birth. So they've never seen. a human face ever with their eyes and. they gave them um they put them in an. MRI and they gave them models of like 3D. models of faces and had them rub the. faces and the fusififor gyus lit up. So. like it is strictly for faces. They also. they were like okay well maybe it's just. you know it's it's it's for other things. too. They gave them 3D models of cubes. and other other stuffs that that weren't.

faces. Nothing happened in the fusoiform. gyus. So we have a place in the brain. that's strictly for recognizing faces. And I think that's probably why we u can. pick out doppelgangers so easily because. our our brains are kind of attuned to. look for faces everywhere. >> Yeah. And you know, if you're thinking. this might be, like I mentioned, committing a crime sort of in passing, but if you think this could be a big. problem as far as the advent uh and more. widespread use of facial recognition,

AI, especially with CCTV, and trying to. catch bad people doing bad things, >> uh, and we've talked about this in the. past on, I think, a couple of different. episodes, but that stuff works okay, but. it doesn't work great with dark skin. It. doesn't work great for people of color, um, black people, Asian people. It gets. confused a lot. And this is already, uh, you know, people have been wrongly. imprisoned because facial recognition AI. has made a mistake.

>> Yeah. There's a one guy as recently as. 2019 from New Jersey um, named Najir. Parks and he, uh, had to end up spending. five grand to defend himself. Spent, I. think, uh, 20 days in jail possibly. um. because he was uh accused or I guess a. AI facial recognition system accused him. of shoplifting and then trying to hit a. police officer with his car. And um it. turns out he'd been 30 miles away, but. he had been misidentified by this. And I.

think in our episode we talked about. this at length. >> that facial recognition systems are. really good at recognizing white men's. faces, >> right? But other people, it just starts. to go down and down until you get to the. point where a black woman's face is 40. times likelier to uh come up with a. false positive than a light-skinned man. >> And apparently, it's just the data that. they're trained on. They just said, "Let's just give them photos of white. men and I'm sure it'll be fine." And it. just hasn't been fine.

>> Well, I mean, that's one of the problems. with it all is it's just it's just. working from a database. So it's not. like it can take a face and find someone. just somewhere on planet Earth. Like you. got to be on a database somehow, >> right? But I'm saying the the AI is. trained on photos and it comes to. understand a face is a face based on the. photos that it's trained on. >> And I guess they didn't select enough. >> um people of photos of people of color, photos of women. I don't know why, but. it seems like they got really good at.

white men because they were given more. photos of white men. That's that's how I. take it. >> Yeah. No, that's how I took it too. >> So Chuck, if let's say that you are a. doppelganger of somebody, somebody. famous like Madonna or Johnny Depp or. >> Rizzo. Let's say Rizzo too just to get. the kids involved. Um, no, Lizo. [laughter]. >> I was like, uh, God, >> I was thinking back to Ratzo Rizzo, I. think. Um, so if you're a doppelganger.

of Lizos, what would you do with that. talent? >> Well, uh, you could go hang out on. Hollywood Boulevard near Man's Chinese. Theater and make some money walking. around charging $5 a picture. You could. get employed full-time with an agency. um, to, you know, get sent out. If. someone wants uh Bill Gates at their. party and you are a lookalike, then uh. you can go to their party and make. >> couple hundred bucks. Probably. >> Probably. Um you could also work on.

movies apparently. There's lots of jobs. for you. >> Yeah. I mean this one is um it's less. face like when you're body doubling. someone or photo doubling or standing in. >> kind of in that order. Or did I get that. wrong? standin is least important that. you actually look like someone, but you. should be the same size uh as somebody. because they're they're lighting you for. camera and stuff like that. >> Uh like you can't, you know, um The Rock.

can't have a body double or a standin. that looks like me, [snorts]. [laughter] you know? >> I don't know if you wore one of those. like ripped t-shirts. >> Yeah, right. I get away with it. Yeah. >> Uh but you know, if you do look like a. celebrity and you want to get work as a. photo double, then that certainly. doesn't hurt if you look like them in. the face. But it's body size and skin. tone and stuff like that is more. important as for doubling. >> But the places where it really kind of. comes in handy if you really look like.

the person in the face and the build and. the hair and the mustache and all that. is to um serve as like a a decoy, a. political decoy. >> Yeah. Because throughout history, the. more uh hated you are either within your. country or internationally or both. [laughter] Yeah. >> The more you need more than probably one. political decoys, which is essentially. somebody who's saying like, "Yeah, I. look like you. I'll go do the boring. stuff, but also risk my life because. somebody might assassinate you at some. point.".

>> Yeah. And I get the sense in some of. these that it's a little less like, "I. look like you. I'd like to do this.". Then Kim Jong-un says, "Hey, you guys. come with me.". >> Right. you're going to double me now. This is your new job. >> Uh because he of course has been listed. as having body doubles. >> Um to the point where there's been. speculation fueled about whether or not. he was sick in the hospital or actually. dead. >> Um Sodom Hussein had a bunch of decoys. Uh they made a movie called The Devil's. Double about uh a man that was his son's.

double. Um Uday. >> Mhm. and they made a I meant to see it. actually. It looked kind of good, >> but I haven't seen it. That was out in. 2011. It was called The Devil's Double. And Latif Yah. >> um basically spoke out a lot afterward. that like I was UD Hussein's double and. he was a very bad guy. So, it was not. probably the best job. >> Um apparently Stalin had at least four.

um doubles. And then this one is amazing. to me. There was a British general named. Bernard Montgomery. >> and he hired a double uh by the name of. Emmy Clifton James. Great name. Uh he. was Australian and he posed as Bernard. Montgomery and went around I would guess. Europe um talking about Allied plans in. the hopes that like his his plans would. be or the the talks would be overheard. by German spies. And the plans of course. were fake. Um, and they were meant to.

serve as a a decoy or distraction for. the Nazis. And they think that possibly. had an influence on the the storming of. Normandy. >> That's pretty cool. There's there's a. movie in there somewhere or at least a. scene. >> It's surely easily. They could have. thrown it in as bonus material in the. Operation Minsmat movie, you know. >> Yeah. Did you see that? >> Yeah. Was it good? >> I liked our episode better, but yes, it. was good. It was it was a fine it was a. fine movie. Sure. >> Yeah. I I need to check that out.

>> I saw one recently. I just want it has. nothing to do with anything, but um it. was a five-part series in Swedish about. the assassination of um their prime. minister in 1986, Olaf Palma. >> And it is really fascinating because. they think that one of the main. witnesses was actually the assassin. >> and they kind of recreate how it would. have happened and they dive into his. life. It's really, really good. It's. worth watching. I think that's on. Netflix, too. By the way, I don't work.

for Netflix, >> right? >> Um, you got anything else? >> I got nothing else. >> That's doppelgangers then, everybody. I. hope you enjoyed this one. I sure did. I. know Chuck did. And if you want to know. more about doppelgangers, you can start. searching on the internet. And there's a. lot of cool posts from social media of. people meeting their doppelgangers that. will just knock your socks off. And. since I said that, of course, it's time. for listener mail. Uh this is in response to the kiss and. cousins episode.

>> from uh a friend from the Ashkanazi. Jewish community. >> I've got 2% Ashkanazi in me. >> Oh yeah. >> Mhm. I also have some Neanderthal, too. >> All right. Uh hey guys, just listened to. the episode Kissing Cousins. I am from. an insular Ashkanazi Jewish community. I'm sure you understand us being insular. makes the gene pool that much smaller. Uh we also tend to marry younger than. the rest of the western world. Thus, in. pretty much every high school in our. community, we do genetic testing for.

recessive genes for defects or serious. illnesses common in Ashkanazi Jews. >> Wow. >> Uh we don't get the results to the test, only an [music] ID number. A big part of. our culture is being set up by. matchmakers. Uh before meeting for the. first time, both families will call the. screening center with their ID number. and be told if [music] it's safe for. them to go ahead with the matchmaking. >> It's amazing. >> It is. uh met my current partner on my. own and we decided we were ready to. settle down. It was a little scarier to. call and see if we were compatible. because we'd already decided we wanted.

to be together. Can you imagine that? >> Yeah. No, I mean, I'll bet that was. pretty nerve-wracking. >> Uh the call was more to see if we need. to speak to a geneticist before having. children than to see if we should get. together for the first time at all. But. thankfully, we were good to go. Uh. separately, I had a close friend whose. husband passed away a few years ago. She. had the option of marrying her. brother-in-law. Uh remember we talked. about that in the episode. >> Mhm. >> Uh which she had no interest in doing. Uh she did take a pair of his shoes. though and spit on them rather than.

[music] him. [laughter]. So that part of the Old Testament is. kind of still kept in some places. Uh. and of course I'm not speaking for all. Ashkanazi Jews, only what I see in my. community. Just thought you might. [music] be interested to know how a. group is trying to keep tradition while. staying safe and up to date with science. in the 21st century. Uh, and this is a. lovely sign off here. Wishing you the. strength to continue for a long time. coming. >> Nice. >> And that's from uh Elkie. >> Thanks a lot, Elkie. That was a great.

email. I appreciate that big time. And. if you want to be like Elkie and send us. a super fascinating email, you can do. that, too. All you have to do is write. to stuff podcast at iheartradio.com. Press send and see what happens. Right, Chuck? That's right. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, [music]. iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.