Stand-Up Pt II | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. [music]. >> Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And we are kicking off part two of. our two-part episode on standup comedy. And I think if I remember correctly, Chuck, it was a couple days ago, but you. said something about alt comedy. Um, we. were going to talk about that. >> That's right. What is that?

>> Uh, alt comedy is something that came. about in the early 90s. >> uh with a a group of comedians. performing in um and I don't know if. that's where the term comes from, but uh. performing in alternative venues. Uh. they they weren't performing and you. know, of course, they would all go to. perform in and comedy store and all that. kind of stuff too. >> and and comedy clubs, but they were well. known for performing in like piano bars. or like bookstores and things like that. And you know, people like Jean uh. Jannine Goff, uh the great uh Dana.

Gould, who is a wonderful comic and. human being still. >> Yeah. >> Uh they started out at uh performing at. a place called Big and Tall Books in LA. Uh the Luna Lounge in New York and. Largo, the original Largo uh in LA were. all sort of uh home bases for these. comics. >> Yeah, we did a show in Largo. Was that. the original Largo? >> No, the original was like this little. piano bar. >> I see. Uh, but the the new Largo is. great, too. It's awesome.

>> For sure. Uh, so I mentioned Mr. Show. before. If you're familiar with Mr. Show. with Bob and David, um, that is. essentially alt comedy at its core. And. most of the people associated with the. show, if not all of them were alt comics. of the time, the early early mid 90s, right? [snorts] Um, Patton Oswalt, Maria. Bamford, Mark Maron, PFT, the great Paul. F. Tomkins. Yeah. >> One of the funniest people alive. >> Um, Mary Lynn Rasc Razub.

>> She's great. >> Yeah. I was like, who is that? And I. went and looked her up. I'm like, oh, okay. I had no idea that she started out. as a standup. >> Yeah. >> But she uh was great on Larry Sanders as. the booking assistant to, I think, Janine Goff, right? >> Uh, yeah, Janine Gar was on that show. >> and um she's probably more well known by. mainstream America as um a character on. 24. She was on 24 basically the entire. run of the show. I'm not sure what she. did though because I didn't watch it.

>> Yeah, she she was great. She was part of. that crew. Uh I know you mentioned Maria. Bamford, but if you've never seen Maria. Bamford's comedy, uh please go see it. because she's one of uh still one of the. most original comedians uh working. today. For sure. >> Yeah. And you said still because most of. these comedians, the ones who are still. alive, are still working and still doing. stuff and a lot of them are still doing. standup. Like David Cross, he's had some. mondo TV hits. Like he was on Arrested. Development, he was on Mr. Show. He's.

been on just tons of movies and just. killed on all of them. He still does. standup pretty regularly, as a matter of. fact. >> Oh yeah. >> Does Patton Oswalt still. >> Oh, yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. So, these guys are still. doing standup, which is really to their. credit because most of them I mean Pat. Patton Oswalt was on what um was it. King of Queens? I don't know. I don't remember either, but he had a huge role in like a major. network television show. Um, like I just.

think it's amazing that they're still. doing standup because as we've seen. people like Steve Martin and Robin. Williams and all that, it's like once. they became huge, they left standup. behind. The early 90s alt comics did. not. And they had some other there were. some other characteristics besides just. um appearing in small like alternative. clubs too. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, it was, I. guess, sort of an alternative point of. view, and this was in the '9s at a time. where alternative music, that was just.

sort of the buzzword for anything that. kind of broke from the previous. mainstreams of the 80s. >> Yeah. >> Uh, so a little more like uh they were. making like insider references more uh a. little less like setup punchline and. more sort of observational like rye. humor about life and telling stories. about their lives and stuff like that. Mhm. >> Uh what else? >> Um they issued the racism generally. homophobia. essentially. If you if you're familiar.

with Don Rickles, imagine the antithesis. of Don Rickles. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Um one of the alt comics from this time. too, who's very sadly no longer with us. because he was also one of the funniest. people around. His mind was just a. national treasure was Mitch Hedberg. >> Yeah. I mean, >> were you into him? >> Yeah, he's the greatest. We've we've. talked about him on the show before. Mitch Hedber is uh very very sad that we. lost him because he was just kind of. getting started. I feel like. >> Yeah, he really was. Um I came across I.

think a Buzzfeed list of 275. of his jokes um ranked from worst to. best. And there there really was no. worst one on there. They're all just. wonderful. >> God bless you, Buzzfeed. >> Uh would you like to hear one? >> Sure. Uh, alcoholism is a disease, but it's. the only disease you can get yelled at. for having. >> I think I remember that joke. >> And his like delivery, too, was just.

just amazing. Like, it just made his. whole act was great. So, yeah, we're I'm. sad he's going, too. >> Uh, there was a thing though with alt. comedy uh where some like club comics. would um sometimes sort of deride that. scene. I know Bill Burr in 2012 called. it that scene like you like you were in. a comedy womb. >> Um like it was a real safe place to go. and you weren't just going up in front. of like a potentially hostile. I think. there's like. >> this idea that you earn your stripes by.

going in front of hostile crowds that. might hate you and might heckle you and. you got to earn your stripes that way. >> uh in the comedy world and and I think. that alt comedy scene there were some. comics that thought that that was. probably not going to happen there. So, it was a little too easy. >> Yeah, he definitely thought that. Um, and I think his point was if you took. those comedians and put them in a. regular club, they would not do very. well because they aren't they hadn't. gone through heckling or something like. that. And I think more to the point that.

it's I read I read the um transcript of. this. It was on some podcast, a comedy. podcast, and he he was saying that um. one of the things that really rubbed him. the wrong way was that if their jokes. bombed or something like that, they just. told the audience that the audience was. too dumb to get what genius they were. >> And I was like, as as I was reading, I. was like, totally I can totally see most. of these alt comics that we've mentioned. like telling the audience like they're.

>> they're not getting it, that that's why. they're not laughing, that it's them. And uh he he he called that out and I. was like, "Okay, I kind of get that." It. was a little more nuanced than that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think so. >> And I never thought I'd be standing here. defending Bill Burr, but you know, [laughter]. >> uh you know, with the rise of. podcasting, you talked earlier about uh. comedy podcast, and that's such a huge. thing now. Like most of the shows I. listen to are comedy shows. >> And uh Mark Marin's WTF, of course, was. an interview show. Uh and the Joe Rogan. Experience, you know, Joe Rogan started.

out as a standup. Both of those uh shows. were created in 2009. >> and um you know before Joe Rogan. Experience became like super super. political uh it was much more of a and I. think he still does some of that stuff. now uh with this whole comedy crew but. it was much more of like a marin like. let's just have comedians on kind of. thing. >> Yes. He um he very um frequently. referred to it as the craft. And I don't. think I've ever seen a commenter online.

talk about him saying the craft and not. deriding that [laughter] term. >> It is a craft. I guess you just can't. say that out loud, huh? >> For sure. >> Yeah. >> Um there was a great takedown video of. him by another standup um when he did. that recent live stream comedy standup. show Joe Rogan did. >> Okay. apparently didn't go all that. well. All right. >> And this standup basically just. disassembled it and pointed out all the. reasons why and it was very funny. But.

supposedly Joe Rogan used his clout to. get it taken down at YouTube which is. not super cool. >> Interesting. Yeah, I didn't hear about. that. But you like no matter what you. think of Joe Rogan, his politics, the. people he has on, his views, his. opinions, it's indisputable that he's. had an enormous impact on on comedy of. all kinds in the 21st century because of. how huge this podcast is and because of. how um how how often he'll use his.

platform to to bring on like upand. cominging comedians. But because of the. politics, most of those comedians have. are like. at least center right if not full-on. rightwing. comedians. Oh yeah, it's and it's a huge. Yeah, it's been a huge shift. I mean you. you know in the United States it's been. an enormous shift. Um and Joe Rogan's a. huge reason why that's happened. >> I didn't know that actually. I I I guess. I don't keep up with the comedy scene as. much so I didn't know that was sort of a.

thing. >> Well, let's talk about that. So, yes, um. those same alt-right comedians um are. often criticized uh in the same way that. the early 90s alt comedians were that. that was like Bill Burr said, it was a. comedy womb that they weren't exposing. themselves to the you know what club. comedians normally did. >> And the same thing is with the um the. alt-right comedians today because they. start out. >> on podcasts usually, not not even. necessarily as standup. They're just.

funny guys on podcasts and they go out. and they get nothing but love on these. podcasts and then they go out they've. generated enough followers on um. Instagram or whatever to automatically. get booked in a club. >> Yeah. >> Like apparently I read somewhere that. like 250,000 followers on Instagram is. like a automatic yes for a weekend at a. club. Maybe even headlining there. >> Okay. But they have some of them have. zero experience doing standup.

>> And so the the criticism is is like. that's not good for the person coming to. see you because they paid that money and. they're expecting a good standup. performance when you're taking this. funny guy on the podcast out of the. conversation and all that stuff and it's. just that person on stage. Yeah. It. doesn't always go very well. They don't. always necessarily become a good standup. because they're funny on a podcast. In. just the same way where like that that. funny guy at work, >> right, >> wouldn't necessarily do very well as a. standup either because it's a totally.

different context. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Uh, you know, or. or they might like I always encourage. funny people to try it uh because you. never know and we'll we'll get to that. at the end like kind of the best steps. for dipping your toe in that pond. Um, but yeah, you're right. I mean, the. gatekeeping is different these days. Um, of course with social media and podcast, it's not like the old days where you. would, you know, get up at coffee houses. and uh open mic nights and then. eventually maybe try and crack into.

doing five minutes on on a like a local. comedy night or something like that at a. real club, >> right? Um, if you have a that social. media following like you were talking. about, if you're uh have your own. podcast like you can bypass sort of what. used to be uh locked gates. >> uh Mark Marin shout out and uh it's just. a different different scene now, you. know. I don't know if it's good or bad. I think a lot of the old school comics. probably complain about it, but I'm not.

a standup so I just sort of see it for. what it is, I think. >> Yeah. And it's tough at the end of the. day to feel good about arguing about. democratizing anything. >> Yeah. True. >> I think I think the point is is that the. there's more nonfunny standups. potentially than there ever have been in. the history of the world right now. >> Yeah, agreed. >> That's not to say that that all people. who get their start on social media or. podcasts aren't great at standup. Um, do. you remember the uh the girl and her.

boyfriend who was hanging out backstage. with us in Toronto? I think you met them. briefly. >> Yeah, >> that was Michelle Suie and Yumi found. her on Instagram and she is hilarious. Not just like on Instagram but also in. person. She's like a a very very early. on in her career standup. >> Um, but Party Hardest, Patty I I can't. remember her last name, you know. Um, Party Hardest, she's kind of she appears. on Tim Robinson's stuff sometimes.

>> I know her as an actor and she is. totally weird and amazing. >> Yes, if you follow her on Instagram, she's just constantly bringing the good. stuff. So, yeah, it's not a total. critique of social media or podcasts in. general. It's just a it definitely has. had a massive impact on on standup. comedy. Not all of it good. >> Yeah, agreed. Uh should we take a break? >> Yes. All right, we're going to take a. break and uh talk about the transition. to the oneperson show right after this.

[music]. [music]. All. >> [music].

>> right, I promised talk of the oneperson. show and that is um it's sort of a thing. where it's standup but it's skinned a. little bit differently in that there are. often uh it's usually build as like a. oneperson show uh or like an evening. with or something like that, >> right? >> Um and it's definitely comedy, but there. can be very deep sad moments of pathos. and just sadness. Um there's usually a.

very well-crafted kind of arc to the. show. Um like it it feels much more sort. of plotted out. Um Mike Burbigley of. course is one of the the masters of this. craft. Um, uh, Alex Edelman and his. great show Just for Us that ran on. Broadway. Uh, Gary Gleman, one of my, uh, favorite comedians of all time, he. has kind of made that transition in the. last few years to a little bit more of a. oneperson show. Oh, >> yeah.

>> Rather than straight up jokeelling. Um, and our buddy John Hodgejman, uh, you. know, John always calls his standup, uh, imitation standup. Like, he won't say he. does standup. Uh, and it's it's. definitely sort of a oneperson show, but. it's all of this stuff is always very. very funny. It's just sort of slightly. different than like a standard standup. set. >> Yes. And those are all great examples, too. Not just of um great um like. oneperson shows, but also great examples. of why a lot of people are like, "That's.

not standup comedy. That's different.". Um. that's just seems to be like an. unnecessary controversy. I don't think. it really matters, but. >> there are definitely purists out there, if it hasn't become clear yet, who are. like, "This is standup comedy. Everything else ain't.". >> Um, and that's one of the things that. they point to frequently is like, "That's not standup comedy." Um, one. huge target was Nanette, um, from. Australian comedian Hannah Gadsby that. came out in 2017 and was a massive like.

cultural title wave. >> here in the United States for sure. And. I I think in a bunch of other countries. too and like. there were it was mostly like gut. punches with some funny stuff carrying. it between. Yeah. But it was. >> like the and it was not funny. And in. fact she almost kind of uses if not. directly. I haven't seen it but I had to. read a bunch about it. Um it seems like. she uses um or she points out that.

comedy can be harmful because it can. take um you know stuff that really needs. to get out and just kind of keep it. simmered like it doesn't let it out all. the way. And so a lot of people are like. that's that's not don't don't call that. comedy. And it gets called comedy. because Hannah Gadsby started out as a. standup. >> Yeah. I think Seth Meyers coined a term. uh called claptor comedy. >> uh rather than laughter comedy. And this. it's like a show where uh like the. audience will give applause in agreement.

with the person on stage and the points. that they're making rather than like. having people rolling in the aisles. laughing. >> Yeah. And in the case of Nanette, um. it's like they're clapping like you're. so brave for doing this and she is. indisputably brave for having done that. show. But but yes, there she's not. really making people laugh or if she's. making people laugh, they're laughing. out of relief because it's carrying them. out of this horrific story that she's. just finished, you know. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, Tiknitaro.

is is a very very funny uh comedian and. she actually had us perform live at her. comedy festival uh and is a wonderful. human being as well. Um, but she uh Tig. is is probably one of the biggest. risktakers in comedy, I think. Uh, and. also just from, uh, hearing interviews. with her and, uh, and seeing her work, like seems to care, uh, as little as any. comedian I've ever seen as to what.

people think about her and her and her. standup. that's. >> like just totally comfortable in her own. skin, does what she does. Uh she very. famously performed uh topless uh after. her masectomy. >> Yeah. >> Uh and her her uh breast cancer. Uh so. you know that's what Tig would do or. when she went I don't know if you ever. saw when she went on Conan and moved the. chair around for her whole act. >> No, I didn't. She went on stage and.

instead of doing comedy, she I guess in. in rehearsals, I I think as the story. goes, she had a a routine, but realized. that this chair made an awful like. squeaky sound when it moved across the. stage. >> Mhm. >> And so she got up there and she moved. this chair around for five minutes. [laughter]. >> That was it. >> Like talking while she was doing it. And. like. >> So she just wasn't talking. She was just. moving the chair. >> Moving the chair would stop.

>> Funny. >> Get a reaction. Move the chair. Conan is. doubled over laughing like on the side. >> about just the, you know, the hutbah of. technara doing something like that. >> Yeah, for sure. Um, one more thing on. claptor. It doesn't have to just be like. brave or you're a risk taker or. something like that. It can it can just. be as simple as like preaching to the. choir. So telling, you know, Democrat. jokes or Republican jokes to a audience. full of liberals, that's clapper, you. know. >> Yeah, sure. Or like us on stage.

[laughter]. >> Yes, for sure. That's why I I'm saying I. don't think I would translate to a good. standup because like talk about a womb. Like everyone who's there. >> knows who we are. They listen to us. They came to see us expecting exactly. what we're doing. If you just pull. Remember that that group of women at the. casino in Ottawa. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I have no idea if they thought. we were funny at all. They had no idea. who we were. They just came because they.

got comp tickets by the casino. And it's. still not clear to me whether they. thought we were funny or if they sat. there because we called them out at the. very beginning of the show and they felt. obligated to sit there. Now, >> oh, I bet they had a good time. >> Yeah. I don't know if they thought we. were like the funniest comedians they'd. ever seen, but they stayed. >> They did stay. Can't argue with that. >> Yeah. Uh what else? Cell phones is a big. deal these days. Uh because, you know, you can get famous and go viral for uh.

taking down a heckler uh on stage, which. has, you know, nothing to do with your. actual standup set. Um, it's always fun. seeing a comedian take down a heckler, but uh, in the days of social media and. and people with their phones in the. audience, um, you might become like. super super famous as a standup for. like, uh, somebody that like jumps up on. stage and physically attacks you or. something. It's an interesting time. >> Yes. or the crowd work is all it's not.

even putting a heckler down like it's. it's with a lot of younger standup. comedians today it's like prompted like. hey how are you doing are you here. tonight and then instead of making a. joke and moving on that's like five. minutes of material. >> like talking to the person on the front. row. >> yeah and then moving on to somebody else. and it's not even necessarily funny it. might be funny throughout but not all of. them are really particularly funny And. like crowd work is the bulk of that um.

that that act. And there again, the club. comedians, the purists are like, "What. are you doing? That's not standup. comedy. You're not even writing. anything. You're just sitting there. riffing with people in the audience.". You know, >> I'm a sucker for for crowd work. >> Well, okay. Well, then you would like. this guy. I discovered him from. researching this. His name is Big Jay. Ocherson. I'm not sure his sense of. humor is exactly dovetailing with yours, but I think it's enough that you would. find him funny. Um, but he interacts.

with the crowd by basically it's almost. like improv where he's like, "What what. what kind of joke do you guys want to. hear?" And somebody will say something. and he just makes up a joke on the spot. and it's not like a oneliner. necessarily. Might even be like a little. plot to it or something, but it's pretty. impressive what he's doing off of the. cuff. Well, I mean, Rory Scoville does. that. He's probably my favorite standup. right now. >> Great. >> Uh, he and Gary Gman, but Rory, I mean, he has shows where he writes a set and. does that, and that's great. >> But he will also do these, a lot of.

times it's like five nights in a row in. a city where he will tell everyone ahead. of time like, "These are improv standup. shows.". >> And man, you talk about the guts to. stand up on stage with no material. >> Yeah. >> And just start making stuff up. And it's. not a 10-minute set or whatever. like. he's up there for an hour. >> just making stuff up and it's so so. funny. >> Yeah. Well, that's the thing. He's. funny. Like his mind can is capable of. doing that, you know. >> Yeah. >> Uh so you mentioned um Rory Scoville.

working today. There's a bunch of other. people working today that are great in. addition to him. Kyle Canane is another. good one. >> Love Kyle. >> My favorite though, can I just go ahead. and say who my favorite comedian of all. time is though? I think you might know. I think I know, but go ahead. >> Uh, Anthony Jezelnick. Is that who. you're going to say? >> That's who I was going to say. >> I don't know that there's ever been a. funnier person on the planet than. Anthony Jezelnick. >> He's great. And, uh, we know some people. who know him and he's he's he's a really.

good guy, too, >> right? Yeah. >> Um, and he right now, uh, I don't know. if you know this, you probably do, but. he's got a book club now that he. started. >> And like promoting literacy is one of. his big jams now. Uh, and I guess sort. of a joke around that was he was when. he's promoting this stuff and you know. he has that delivery. and he said that you know people tell me. they don't like to read and I always. tell them you're you're just reading. books that are too long. [laughter]. >> So all of his books in his book clubs. are like really short. Uh and that's his.

ar his argument is that like uh people. think they don't like to read because. they're they're trying to read stuff. that's too long. And so he's he's. genuinely promoting like reading uh. literacy and stuff. It's it's pretty. awesome. >> It is. That is the that is the opposite. of what his persona is. Like his persona. is is insult comic, but also really. dark. >> Yeah. >> And really um really egotistical and. arrogant. And yes, he's not really like. that in real life. Um but he's managed.

to keep that going, that persona going. for like 20 years. Yeah. >> He has, I think, three Netflix specials. All three of them kill every time we've. ever seen him in in person. Um it's just. like you're just like you said, we were. like Conan like doubled over laughing. like laughing as hard as you ever have. out loud. The bunch of other people. laughing, a bunch of other people who. aren't laughing because they had no idea. what they were going to see. And if. you're not prepared to go see him, especially if you're sensitive at all to.

some types of humor, you're not going to. have a good time. Um, but I would I. would suggest everybody go look up. Anthony Jezelnick. >> Yeah, he's great. Uh, and you can't do. much better these days than Melany. still. Like he's. >> he's one of those that I think has sort. of mastered the craft such that he just. can do no wrong. Uh, and he next year I. tried to get tickets to some of these, but have you heard about his Melanie. Takes Manhattan run that he's doing? Mm-m. >> He's doing seven nights in New York in a.

row and he's starting out at like. >> the comedy seller and then it's like. comedy seller then Bowie Ballroom and. then he goes up and up and up through. Carnegie Hall, Radio City, and then. eventually Madison Square Garden. >> Neat. >> And all of those, you know, I signed up. for the uh list to try and get into any. of those shows and could not get into. any of them. [laughter]. >> Uh yeah, I believe that though except. for Madison Square, man, that's big. time, dude. sell out Madison Square. Garden. >> Yeah. I mean, dude, I think he last year. went on a run where he sold out like.

multiple nights in a row at Madison. Square Garden. He's just crushing it. Yeah. >> Um I have one more anecdote about. Anthony Jezelnick. >> All right, let's hear it. >> We went and saw him at um Funny Bone, which was the one that was on Roswell. Road. I don't think it's there anymore. >> I think Funny Bone. >> Funny Bone. No, that was out in Roswell. Uh this was the Punchline. >> Punch line. Okay. So, we saw him at the. Punch Line, which is a really tiny club. for any of you who've never been to the. Punch Line in Atlanta. I mean, like. maybe a 75, maybe a 100 [clears throat].

person seat um uh club. So, it was. really small and um this was the first. time we saw him and we were just. laughing, but Yumi was like really. really laughing. Yeah. I think the joke. that got her, he was saying that his. they his family scattered his grandma's. ashes. >> um outside of the funeral home because. that's where his arms got tired from. carrying the urn and just it just got. Yumi. So she's laughing, crying. >> Yeah.

>> So much so that he stopped the show and. asked her like he's like what's your. what's your name and everything? She. said Yumi. >> And he goes, I want all of you laughing. like Yumi. I want yi Yi Yi. [laughter]. It was great. Great. Yeah. So, uh, that's how hard we laugh at Anthony. Jezelnick. And if you go check out. Anthony Jezelnick and you're like, "This. is wrong." Don't judge us. >> Right. [laughter]. No, he's great. Uh, I love that. I wish. I could have seen that. >> Yeah, it was great. >> Uh, should we take a break? >> I think we should. Is this our first or.

second? >> Uh, I think it's our second break. >> Okay. Well, we'll find out in the edit. >> Yeah. We'll come back and talk about uh. um some less fun stuff like the. psychology of standup right after this. [music]. [music].

>> [music]. >> Okay, we're back, Chuck. And as you. promised, we're going to stop talking. about funny stuff. Um, we're going to talk about the. psychology of being a stand-up because. there, as you could probably guess, there's a specific type of person who. makes a a good standup and it's actually.

been studied a little bit here or there. >> Yeah. Uh, you know, I don't think it's. any secret that most standups will say. that like their comedy oftentimes comes. from pain. Uh if you pulled a hundred. standups, you'd probably be in like the. 80 something percentile of people that. weren't like, "Yeah, I had a great. childhood. I grew up and I was just. happy all the time and everything was. awesome in my life." Uh but they have. studied it. There's a guy named David. Webb on the all about psychology. substack who found some studies and.

found that uh you know as it bears out. compared to population averages uh. stand-ups have higher rates of. depression, anxiety and emotional. distress which is not surprising. No, there and actually to kind of dig in a. little further, there's something called. the Oxford Liverpool Inventory of. Feelings and Experiences or O Life. And. um there's some dimensions that pop up. that comedians uh score higher on that. if you put the whole thing together,

you're like, "Yeah, I can kind of see. that's a standout comedian." Um they. score high on unusual experiences, so. they perceive things differently, use. magical style thinking. Um, they make. unexpected connections that other people. might not make. >> Yeah, >> there's your jokes right there. >> for sure. Uh, the one of the other ones. is cognitive disorganization. So, uh, a thought style that may be a. little more scattered or shifting uh, kind of quickly between things. Uh, a. lot of times that can really be gasoline.

for getting great ideas. >> Uh, even though it may not be the. easiest thing like in life. No, I mean living with a disorganized. mind is very difficult. Uh also so can. uh introvertive anhidonia be difficult. because um you might have trouble making. social connections and yet at the same. time you um want validation from people. so you go get it from strangers on.

stage. >> Yeah. you know, um it's kind of lonely. and you don't enjoy um being around. people and that's a standup comic if. I've ever met one. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh and then the last one. was impulsive non-conformity. So, uh you. know, someone who will break a rule, uh. push a boundary. Um obviously someone. who will say something that no one else. would say like in public, they would say. it on stage. >> Uh and it's not, you know, uh you know, this like a vin diagram when it comes to. this stuff. Looks like a combination of. different [clears throat] things out of.

these lists will uh maybe make someone a. little more inclined to do standup or. maybe be good at standup. >> Yeah. >> Uh but you know, you have to be someone. who's quickwitted and make quick. associations between things and be. comfortable not, you know, necessarily. being a part of the middle of the road. of life, you know. >> Yeah. You know, when I read this and and. think about it, I when I see all those. components broken out, I see David Vatel. standing there as like the example, the.

illustrated example of the stand-up. comedian, >> one of the all-time greats. >> Yeah. And he's like he's like Nor. McDonald in the sense that he's like a. comedian's comedian. Like. >> Yeah. >> A lot of people might not find him that. funny. Sorry, Dave. Um, but pretty much. every stand-up comedian, especially the. club comics, are are going to just say. like, "That guy's a legend.". >> Oh, yeah. And you can still I mean, you. can go see Dave up on in the comedy. seller in New York on any given like. random Tuesday, you know? He's he's. still just like I feel like guys like.

that uh and performers like that just. love being on stage and doing it. And. like it's not about like, you know, Patton Oswalt's still doing standup. He. doesn't need to do that kind of thing. He's right. >> made a great living as an actor, but. they just love getting up there and. telling jokes and making people laugh. like in being in a room with that. energy. >> Who doesn't? [laughter]. >> I seriously I mean I I think anybody. would love to have all their jokes. laughed at, but yeah, >> it's just whether your jokes are. actually funny or not is the key. >> for sure. Uh you know, if if you're.

standup, like I mentioned, you might. have had like a rough go as a kid. Um, you probably had to not like found humor. as a maybe as a defense in in life. Like. maybe you were bullied or maybe it was a. bit of survival skill in your own. family. Uh, obviously in the worst. situations if there's real abuse, but at. the very least just like uh maybe a. happy not so happy family with family. tension and it was a survival skill for. you. >> Yeah. When you're being threatened to to.

be beaten up by a bully, you'd say. something like, "Take my lunch, please.". and then the bully would just crack up. and let you go. >> Classic move. >> There's some other things that don't. farewell for being a standup, too. Uh, according to a 2016 study done by. Australian researchers, uh, the average. standup comedian dies 10 years earlier. than people in the general population. >> Yeah, >> that's a significant amount of time. >> Yeah. How do they explain that? Think.

about how much life you could pack into. 10 years, Chuck. >> I know. I'm thinking about my first 10. years. I I accomplished a lot. [laughter]. >> Exactly. But they looked at 200 standup. comedians and they compared them to. comic actors and dramatic actors and. stand-ups died younger than both, although not as much as compared to the. general population. >> Yeah, for sure. Uh I think 80% of those. standups still died of natural causes. Uh but they were likelier to die from.

non-natural causes uh like accidents or. uh obviously overdoses is included in. that or by suicide, >> right? Or slipping on a banana peel, which is the classic way for a stand-up. comedian to die young. >> So what if you want to be a stand-up? What what should you do? What are the. steps you should take? >> Oh, well, there's a lot of stuff you can. do. It turns out there's a lot of people. on the internet who like to write blog. posts about that. And uh we looked. through a bunch of them and found that. they all kind of generally fall into the. same handful of categories. One of the.

basic ones obviously is come up with. material. You say, "Duh." But there's. some things you have to do to come up. with material. I think most comedians. suggest you start with a solid five. minutes of material. >> Most of the reason why is because. wherever you get like your shot at. getting up on stage, especially as. somebody brand new, you're probably. going to get five minutes. So, you just. want to have that prepared and you want. to prepare way more than five minutes of. jokes just to start, right?

>> Yeah, for sure. Uh, have you seen the. the latest Bradley Cooper movie that he. directed with Will Arnett? Uh, is This. Thing On? >> No. >> Uh, it was actually pretty good. Uh, >> you were the only person I've met who. said that? >> That said it was pretty good. >> Mhm. >> Oh, I liked it quite a bit. Uh it it's. about this guy who accidentally stumbles. on stage for an open mic night. >> Uh just this, you know, dad in a family. going through a divorce and it it. standup ends up being kind of the thing. that he loves doing. Um yeah, I liked.

it. >> Cool. That's awesome. >> Who said who said they didn't like it? Everyone else that you spoke to about. it? >> Well, u people online typically. I I. just I didn't see that it was very well. You're the only person I know who's seen. it actually. Um, I just from my. impression it just it wasn't very. wellreceived. >> Well, hey buddy, I received it. >> Okay. Well, now you give me a reason to. go check it out. If you thought it was. good, you got good taste in movies. I. know that. >> I appreciate it. I thought it was pretty. good. Uh, but that was a sidetrack after.

you have your material. You got to. practice it, of course. Um, especially. like you can get away with having notes. on stage if you're like a super. well-known comic and you're like. workshopping new material and you can. make a joke about like, oh, the notes. are on my stool, but like you don't want. to get up there looking at any notes if. you're just starting out. Like that's a. bad look. >> No. And actually, that brings up another. Jezeleneck anecdote. The first time we. saw him was at South by Southwest uh. years and years and years ago and he was. part of like four or five other.

comedians and he was like one of the. last ones to get up and all the other. comedians had their little notebooks. that they were basically reading off of. on stage. Yeah. And Jezelnick gets up. there, his stuff's totally polished and. everything and he's like, I don't have. my notebook with me. I feel so. unprepared. >> That's good. >> Then he proceeded to kill. >> Of course he did. So once you have that. material, once it's practiced, you want. to, you know, you want to make it really. good. And so that means you need to do. it in front of people. Um, so pick. something very low stakes. Uh, obviously.

if you're someone who's never done it, uh, you're not going to have any other. choice but low stakes. Yeah. >> Um, it'll just be a local open mic or. something like that. But that's where. the rubber meets the road and that's. where you're going to figure out like. not only what's funny, but um, like how. you tell it. Can you tell it in a. different way? Can your timing be a. little different? Can you stress a. certain word or pace something in a. little bit different way to make. something that wasn't funny one night. funny the next night? >> Yeah. And it'll also give you some real. insight into how you should structure. your five minutes, right? So, what joke.

goes where. You want to start with. something strong, often like a oneliner. Then you put your riskier stuff in the. middle, which doesn't necessarily mean. just like, you know, potentially. tasteless jokes, but like weird jokes, maybe something that doesn't have a. punchline. And then you follow with like. your biggest joke, the one you know. you're going to get the most laughs from. because then you get to walk off stage. to that applause while people are still. laughing. >> Yeah. And not always, but oftentimes. that last joke is a rejoinder where you.

might circle back to something from the. beginning. Uh again, there there are no. rules, but that that seems to be a. formula that works pretty well. >> Yes. Okay, Chuck, here's a really important. question that I'm interested in. exploring because no one's answered it. and it's certainly not settled, but the. question is as follows. Should there be any topic that's off. limits for stand-up comedians? What's. your answer?

>> Uh, well, my honest answer is no, because it just feels to me like a. medium that should just be completely. wide open. Mhm. >> Uh but it's like that free speech thing, not free from consequences. Um if you. want to get up there and say awful. things about a group of people or. something, like I I think it should be. allowed. Uh but people may hate it and. people may put up a big fuss and hate. you because of it. >> Yes. Okay. Well, you're in good company.

because basically every stand-up. comedian on record uh who's gone on. record about it is like yes or no. There. should not be any topic that's off. limits for standup comedy. But if you. dig in a little further and go one layer. deeper and you say, "Well, wait a. minute. Do you mean. >> that no topic should be off limits for. any comedian, any individual comedian?". Or you're saying that for standup comedy. in general, no topic should be off. limits. And then like a division starts.

to come about because you you reach the. question like who can say what about. who, right? >> Yeah. And that's where the debate really. starts to begin. >> Yeah. Uh I mean, for sure. What do you. think? >> I think it's I think it cuts both ways. I think that if you think that you have. something very funny and insightful. that that you could make basically. anyone laugh with that's offensive and.

you're willing to take the risk, more. power to you. And I hope it is funny. because something like that can just be. groundbreaking. On the opposite side, um, if you're. offended by a joke, I think that it's. incumbent upon you to stop and say, "Why. am I offended by this?" Like, what what. what is actually offending me personally. about this? Or am I being offended on. behalf of some other people, right? >> Who may not even be offended by it. And.

if you start traing into that territory, I think you should examine yourself a. little further in and your sensitivities. because I think that that's a that's. something that can help people in life. in general, not just in taking standup. comedy in ways that it can just make you. laugh. >> Yeah, for sure. uh you know there have. been cases where there have been. comedians with like certain disabilities. that get up on stage and uh part of. their act sometimes a big part of their. act is is making fun of that disability. in a certain way.

>> So you know that's a case where. obviously someone that um or or you know. like a any sort of um ethnic joke joke. if someone is of that ethnicity uh it's. obviously going to go over a little bit. less with less controversy. >> Yeah. uh if you're not of a certain. ethnic group and you're making fun of um. a different uh group other than. yourself, like I still say more power to. you if that's your thing, but just be be. ready if it's like not good or doesn't.

work, you know? >> Yes. I think the key, the through line. here is if it's funny. If it's so funny. that that group that you're making fun. of or that is involved in the joke, even. if you're not making fun of them, if. they will laugh, then then it's just. legitimately objectively funny, I think, at that point. >> Yeah. And it also depends on how much. people love you. Like, >> yeah, >> uh people generally kind of love Sarah. Silverman. Uh, I know obviously she has. people who don't like her, but she's.

sort of a beloved comic and she has got. a, you know, in her past like some some. uh derogatory ethnic slurs in her. routines. Uh, she's made very famously. uh had some rape jokes in her past. routines. Uh, she wore blackface. Uh, and Sarah Silverman always seems to. bounce back and I think it's because. people like Sarah Silverman and I love. Sarah Silverman. >> She's very lovable. And the thing is is. she's not beloved by, you know,

like racists. She's beloved by like the. people who kind of lean social justice. warrior. And yet she's extremely well. known for telling racist jokes. the the. I think the reason why she's able to um. to traverse those very dangerous waters. is because at the end of the day her. racist jokes are not putting down. any group. She's actually pointing out.

this like the the secret thoughts that. people like her or in her group feel. guilty about having. >> So it's not like she's putting down. black people. She's pointing out how, you know, like white people like. inadvertently think of of black people. and don't even aren't even aware of it. She points that out. >> Yeah. Exactly. Uh and it obviously also. matters like the power structure uh and. the power dynamic as a comedian. So, um.

Ronnie Chang is his last special was. incredible. >> Yeah, it was. and he makes fun of white. people a lot in that show because uh and. he can get away with that because he's. an immigrant to the United States who is. in a position of less power than the. white people that he's making fun of, right? >> So he's uh he's punching up and you've. heard of like punching up or punching. down. Like punching up is is almost. always funny. Punching down is is. usually not funny. >> Yeah. It's just really not. I mean it.

it's it's just not like textbook humor. It's not funny almost ever. >> Yeah. And I love Dave Chappelle, but I. he seems to have just gotten kind of. mean with some of his standup. And. that's to me where it kind of crosses. the line is like, and this just a. personal opinion, but I don't know. I. haven't found him as funny. >> Uh I I hate to say it, but I agree with. you. I don't think it's because he's. being mean. I think it's because he's. turned kind of preachy. >> Yeah. Maybe. >> And he's gotten away from jokes more.

>> Yeah. I I think he's just I think he's. become so uncoupled from, you know, the. average person because he's just become. so vastly wealthy. >> Yeah. >> That it's hard for him to relate. And. then also I think he doesn't like being. come after. I think that that's really. like affected him and so he's coming out. offensively. >> Even harder. Yeah, that's true. Uh but. you know, like like we said, it's like. >> you can say what you want, but the. audiences are the ones who are going to. have the final say. So, it's society. who's going to ultimately decide like.

what's funny and what isn't and who. should be allowed to say what uh or not, you know, because that's what you're. doing. You're getting up on stage in. front of people and saying, "Judge me,". basically. And uh people will judge you. one way or the other, >> right? For sure. Uh there was one other. thing that really stuck out to me too. was um you had said I don't know if it. was in this episode or the last where. you you weren't familiar with the. alt-right comedy becoming a big thing. like around Joe Rogan. Um, I saw a.

really good explanation for why that's. emerged. And that was that back in like. the 70s and 80s, America was very, very. conservative. And so it made sense for. left-leaning liberalthinking comedians. to be huge because the comedian's job is. to basically take on the establishment, to criticize the establishment. Well, if. you follow the arc of American society. through the 90s, it got way more. liberal, way more politically correct.

And so the people more on the outside of. that type of society are right-leaning. And they became the ones whose role it. was was to attack the establishment. >> That's the best example I've seen or. best explanation I've seen for um the. rise of of alt-right comedy. >> Interesting. >> I thought it was interesting, too. >> Yeah. Hopefully these two episodes were. interesting and people weren't just. like, you know, I don't think so. >> Okay, great. Well, Chuck doesn't think. you guys fell asleep, which I think.

means it's time for listener mail. Uh, this is We got shouted out in a book. uh yet to be released and so we're going. to plug that book. Um, author Sarah. Addison. Hey guys, I'm reading an. advanced copy of Sarah Addison Clark's. new book, Paper Ghosts. Uh, it comes out. uh Tuesday next week. So, I guess it'll. already be out by the time this comes. out. >> Um, y'all got a shout out in the book, guys. Uh, it's somewhere around chapter. 18, although they may change since this.

is an advanced copy, but one of the main. characters had been talking with her. friend on the phone about the main. plotline. And the next sentence is after. they hung up, Bailey cued an episode of. the Stuff You Should Know podcast. This. one explaining chaos theory, which. seemed appropriate. >> Mhm. I saw that. >> Pretty great. Uh, Sarah Addison Allen. Well, wait a minute. It said Clark. earlier. Mhm. So, I'm not sure if that. was a typer or what, but [music] her the. author is Sarah Addison Allen. Okay. Is. from North Carolina. So, a lot of her. books, if not all, are set in the. Southeast. I haven't read them all, but.

I've enjoyed the ones I've read so far, so I thought I'd share. Uh, that is from. Abby Sers. >> That's awesome. Thanks for pointing that. out, Abby. And thank you to Sarah. Addison Allen, too, for including us. And by the way, you have great taste. because that is one of our best. episodes, the one on Chaos Theory. >> That's right. Everyone go out and get a. paper ghosts. >> Yeah. Great, Chuck. That was well done. Uh, and if you have seen us out in the. wild and want to share a story about it, we'd love to hear that kind of stuff. It's thrilling. You can send it off to.

Stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. [music] For more podcasts, iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. listen to your favorite shows.