Short Stuff: Third Man Syndrome | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[music]. Hey and welcome to the shortep. I'm Josh. and there's Chuck. And it's just us. [music] right now. But that's okay. because we have a third and fourth man. with us today in the form of Jerry and. Dave. >> That's right. I feel I sense their. presence. >> I do [laughter] too. And they're guiding. us on. They're saying, "Come on, you. guys. You can finish the short stuff. It's going to be a good one." I can feel. it, Chuck. >> I think we're going to be okay. Uh we just demonstrated a really weird.

phenomenon pretty well if you ask me. I. think we did a great job just now. >> Everyone saying so. Um but we we just. demonstrated this weird phenomenon. called the third man syndrome. Uh. there's an author named John Guyger who. for some reason changed syndrome to. factor, but that's typically why it's. called this third man syndrome. And like. I said, it's weird. Chuck, take it away. Yeah, it has nothing to do with the. movie The Third Man, >> which was good. >> Great movie. And immediately when you. sent this along and I saw the title, I.

thought it might have something to do. with that. Uh, and it doesn't have to be. a man. It's really should be the third. person syndrome. >> Sure. >> Um, but it is this phenomenon that has. been, you know, talked about by many. people over hundreds of years where. someone is in dire straits. Um, oftentimes it's like somebody sort of. like a mountaineer or somebody in the. wilderness that's lost and struggling to. survive, but not always, as we'll see. And when they're at their sort of worst.

moment, maybe worst low point, they get. a a third a sense that someone else is. there. Um, and again, it's not always. the third person. If they're alone, it's. just technically the second person. >> Sure. Uh but it's just somebody there. kind of urging them on. But it's not. just like I got this weird feeling. Like. it's a real serious tangible thing. >> Yeah. Like whatever sense you have when. there's somebody sitting next to you and. they actually are there is a person. sitting next to you. It seems to be the.

exact same type of feeling and and level. of feeling and all that. Yeah. It's not. like this weird kind of like thought a. little bit here or there. It's like. sensing another presence. Um, and the. first person to ever really kind of. document this was Ernest Shackleton. Surely he was not the first person to. experience this, but he uh he was the. first person to write about it, and his. experience is just nuts in and of. itself. >> Yeah, we talked about this guy before. Uh, it was a British expedition to.

Antarctica in 1914. trying to get to the South Pole. Uh it. was his third try and he's trying to. establish a base there and his ship got. trapped in sea ice. Uh they tried to. kind of ride it out but eventually the. ice uh kind of came together and I mean. this just shows how forceful like. creeping ice can be. It kind of crushed. the boat. >> Yeah. >> And they abandoned ship, set up camp on. other ice and stayed there initially for. 4 months on this ice.

>> Yeah. waiting for the ice to break up. enough to try to make an attempt uh by. whailing boat over to Elephant Island, which is the closest island. And they. made it. They rode they rode for um six. days before they reached Elephant. Island, which was great. They weren't on. the ice anymore, but they were on a. deserted island. >> And again, probably cold. >> Yeah, I'm thinking it's pretty cold, too. And again, this is 1914. They're. not like, you know, picking up the. satphone and saying like, "Hey, can. somebody come get us?" like they've got.

a real problem here. So, they're. stranded on this deserted island and the. closest place where there's other people. where they actually can get in touch and. say, "Hey, somebody come get us." is a. whaling station on South Georgia Island. and that's 800 miles away. Um, so Ernest. Shackleton says, "Got to keep going.". Whittleles down uh to a few men. I think. six five or six other people. And they. actually rode 800 miles from Antarctica.

to South Georgia Island. >> Yeah. So they get there 16 days later. Uh it turns out they landed on the wrong. side of the island cuz the winds blew. them off course. And so this guy was. undaunted still. Uh he took two guys. I. think you see where this is headed even. though the math is still wrong. >> And they made the rest of the way uh on. foot. It's about 18 miles or or 30. kilometers. And through some pretty. treacherous uh conditions, um took about.

36 hours, they finally get there and. everyone ends up being rescued. Like. that's the good news. Um but this is. that last push is when Shackleton feels. the presence of this additional person. urging them on. >> Yeah. Because this is like they've. reached the limit of their endurance and. they're still going on. And so um. Shackleton sensed it, but he never said. anything about it until he wrote his. book, um South. Uh it it was published. in 1919, but he did say something to the. other two people who were with him. One.

was Captain Warsley, and Warsley said, "Yeah, I had the same feeling actually.". And so did Crane, the other guy on this. expedition. They all sensed another. person, in this case, a fourth person. with them kind of basically comforting. them to some to some degree. Um so that. seemed in and of itself pretty cool. And. I guess the word of this got out because. TS Elliott, >> he's frequently cited as the person. who's who coined the term third man. syndrome. >> As far as I can tell, no one knows who.

actually took this TS Elliott poem and. turned it into third man syndrome, but. it actually it did come indisputably. from this TS Elliott poem from 1922. >> Yeah. So, uh well, the wasteland was the. poem and um he again he was wrong in the. math. You should have called it the. fourth man. But this this is kind of the. funniest part. TS Elliott said that he. couldn't remember who um who inspired. this like which expedition it was when. asked, you know, why the number of. people was four and not three or three.

and not four, rather. >> Exactly. Um and I I'm feeling a little. poetic today. Chuck, do you mind if I. read this little excerpt? >> This is from TS Elliott's The Wasteland. Three words. Who is the third who walks. always beside you? When I count, there. are only you and I together. But when I. look ahead up the white road, there is. always another one walking beside you, gliding wrapped in a brown mantle, hooded. I do not know whether a man or a. woman, but who is that on the other side.

of you? Answer me. Thank you. Thank you. >> I say we take a break and let everybody. in stunned silence absorb all that. >> All right, we'll be right. [clears throat] back. >> [music]. [music].

>> All right. So, that's the third man. syndrome, Shackleton's version. Um, but. it's happened a bunch. Like we said, there uh was a collection by John Guyger. called The Third Man Factor that you. mentioned earlier from 2008 where he, you know, dug up a bunch of these. stories. Um, and we're going to go. through some of them right now. >> Yeah. I I Yeah, I mean, it's quite a. quite a feat that he got all these. together because they were definitely. few and far between. Um, one of the. first ones that he mentions is a guy. named Frank Smi who uh made a solo.

attempt at his summit Everest. He would. have been the first back in 1933. and he. got close, but he didn't make it and he. realized he had to turn back. And his. second man during this um this attempt. was so real to him that at one point he. actually turned to offer them food. before he realized that there was no one. there. So like this can be a pretty. tangible presence, a tangible intangible. presence essentially. >> Yeah. I mean, I've seen this in movies, you know, and they don't call it out as, you know, third man syndrome, but I've.

definitely seen these scenes, you know, where there's an unseen person and they. look and then they're not there, you. know. >> Yeah, it's. >> but but in a comforting way, not like uh. well, I was going to spoil that Nicole. Kidman movie, but I guess I won't do. that, >> right? >> Not in a horror movie kind of way. >> No, for sure. >> Uh but there was another guy, a climber. again named Joe Simpson. Uh this was. 1985. He was climbing in the Peruvian. Andes and he broke his leg. So he was in. really bad shape and he wrote a book. called Touching the Void where he talked.

about obeying this voice like guiding. him. And a lot of times that's what. happens. It's not just like you can do. it, you can do it, but like go this way. kind of thing. And if you're in this. situation after reading all this stuff, I would be wise to go in whatever. direction your invisible person is. telling you to go. >> Yeah. Obey the voice, I think, is the. upshot of all this. Yeah. he uh he was. guided to safety by his voice. And. enough of these are mountaineers that I. started to think maybe the cold has. something to do with this. But this has.

also happened to other people who were. not in the cold who were in totally. different situations. Um. >> very famously out of the 9/11 attacks, two people who survived reported. experiencing third man syndrome. One was. Ron D. Francesco who was the last person. out of the south tower before it. collapsed. He was led down while. everybody else was going up and actually. went through flames, fire, like three. stories of fire to get to safety. And it. was because he was being urged on. And.

then there was another woman, Janelle. Guzman McMillan, who was actually. trapped in the rubble of the North. Tower, and she had a similar experience, too. >> Yeah. And you know, again, it's um. it feels like it it might be like in the. movie like a family member or something. And sometimes it seems like it that can. happen like uh I know wasn't there one. of these where uh yeah it was a a. geologist who was on a cave dive and. lost her guideline with 20 minutes left. >> um in her air tank and she felt her.

husband Rob who had died um so her dead. husband had died in a diving accident a. few weeks prior so he appeared so. sometimes it's like a known individual. >> Yeah. And Janelle Guzman McMillan I read. she name she didn't think hers was a. family member but she considered it a. guardian angel and its name was Paul. >> Oh. >> so they do get names sometimes even if. you don't know them. >> I would name mine. >> What would you name yours? >> I don't know. It depends. I think it. would hit me in the moment but it seems.

like the respectful thing to do and not. just say hey you. Thanks for all that. >> Right. Yeah. And just a little word of. advice if you can't come up with the. name just go with Tim. >> Tim. That's pretty good. uh. scientifically. I mean, you might be. wondering like, well, what what's what's. happening here? And no, no one really. knows. It's kind of one of those things. where they think it may be some like. hardwired innate instinct. uh that just kind of kicks in. Um you. know, obviously you can't study. something like this. And if it is. hardwired, we may all have it, but you.

just luckily most of us aren't ever in. that situation, you know, >> right? like you you not only have to be. in this limit of your endurance life or. death situation, you also have to. survive it to come back and tell. everybody about it too. So you would. imagine like this is a pretty small. population of people, >> right? >> I mean clearly just from the few stories. that John Guyger was able to collect. Um. did you see the thing about the bicamal. mind. theory? So um remember our episode on. the biccameal mind from Julian James and.

basically just for people who aren't. familiar uh this is a hypothesis that. all the way up until like the bronze age. people hadn't fully become conscious um. like we think of consciousness today and. so the voices in their head that we call. an inner dialogue where we know we're. talking to ourselves to them this was. the gods speaking to them guiding them. instructing them so this idea is the. Third man syndrome is kind of this. vestigial biccameal experience that.

people used to have where what seems. like something outside of your mind is. helping you, urging you on, guiding you, but really it's just another part of. your mind that gets kicked in. >> Yeah. I love it. Which kind of jes with. the first theory anyway, you know, it's. not like uh that that doesn't cancel it. out, right? >> No, there's no cancelling going on here. >> Yeah. [laughter]. Good. >> Uh you got anything else? >> Uh nothing else. Hopefully uh this. instinct is within all of us because I. wouldn't mind a pal urging me on in the.

end. >> For sure. Yes. But [music] hopefully no. one listening ever has to experience it. cuz it sounds like it's pretty rough to. get there. >> Agreed. >> Short stuff is out. >> Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever [music] you listen. to your favorite shows.