Short Stuff: Oedipus Complex | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. Josh, Chuck, Jerry, not Dave, but Dave. And this is short stuff. Yeah. The one. in which we uh continue to lay wood onto. Sigman Freud. What? As a as a lot of people do. Yeah. I mean, his his spirit at least. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, here's the deal with. Sigman Freud. He uh and I think this. this thing that you put together uh from.

Bratannica and Very Well Mind and Psych. Central and simple simply psychology and. other places. Oh yeah. Uh I think it. kind of nails it where like maybe we. should just think of Freud as kind of a. an innovative um perhaps even great mind. and thinker and not like a rigorous. scientist. uh because a lot of the stuff. in his psychoanalysis and in his. theories was not it was just stuff based. on anecdotal things he saw in the cases. he worked on. Sometimes just like a. single case would make him say like oh.

well here's what this is I think. Yeah. Yeah. I mean he would just theorize. based on conjecture. He never applied. the scientific method to any of his. theories. He just thought and talked out. loud and smoked cigars and he he came up. with interesting explanations, right? Um for for things he observed for. like actual real things. And one of the. actual real things that he observed is. that a lot of times little kids are mean. and hostile to one parent and can't be.

separated from the other parent. And he. came to kind of recognize that usually. they were attached to the opposite sex. parent and were mean to the same sex. parent. And that formed the basis of. what came to be known as the Edipus. complex, which is far and away his most. famous theory among a lot of very famous. theories that he came up with. But just. like all the other ones, it's. essentially conjecture. Yeah. I mean, when you think if you know nothing about. Freud, you probably have made a joke.

about like somebody wanting to sleep. with their mother. Yeah. I mean, there's. a penis even. Yeah. What is it? I'm not. going to tell you. So we should just quickly go over the. Greek myth of Edipus in which that was. so named for. Uh Edipus was abandoned at. birth and then fulfilled a prophecy. killing his father the king and marrying. his mother the queen whom he did not. know uh because he was abandoned at. birth. That was his father and his. mother. He ended up having four kids.

with his mother. And after learning. this, uh, Queen Jocasta, uh, hanged. herself and Edipus gouged out his eyes. Um, perhaps appropriate action. Yeah. In. in his case, at least. Yeah. So grossed. out he gouged out his own eyes. And to. to be clear to the Greeks, the point of. this myth was not like, how gross is. this? It was um like it was about how. like the inevitability of fate and the. inability of humans to like change their.

fate or their destiny because he was. this was a prophecy that he ended up. fulfilling despite trying really hard. not to. Right. Freud was like I like. that really gross part. I'm going to use. that to describe these feelings that. little kids have toward their parents. I. like the idea though that someone's. writing this myth and they're like, "Oh. boy, I got one for you. This one's so. gnarly. Gnarly. What What's it about? Oh, you just wait. Yeah, I'm not going. to tell. It's about It's about destiny. Uh, whatever. Sure. Sure.

So, yeah. I mean, that's where that's. where Freud picked it up was I I mean, it is perfectly suited in that in that. sense. Yeah. And we'll we'll describe. from uh kind of directly from the Simply. Psychology website what the edible. complex is. And it occurs during the. phallic stage of development ages 3 to. six in which the uh source of libido or. the life force is concentrated in the. erogynous zones of the child's body and. during this stage children experience an. unconscious feeling of desire for their.

opposite sex parent and jealousy and. envy toward their same sex parent. Okay, makes sense. It's a little it's a little. jargony. Um I also found one from. Encyclopedia Britannica. It's a little. more lay person geared. They say the. edipus complex in psychoanalytic theory. is a desire for sexual involvement with. the parent of the opposite sex and a. conccominant sense of rivalry with the. parent of the same sex. But it's a. crucial stage in the normal development. process according to psychoanalytic.

theory at least. Yeah, that part is. pretty key. Uh, and what's also key is. that Freud based this on a case, uh, one. case study of a four-year-old patient, uh, that he anonymized as little Hans. Uh, apparently little Hans was brought. in by his father and had, um, recently. seen the collapse of a horse pulling a. heavy cart that really traumatized him. That traumatized anybody. Sure. And he. developed a fear of horses. Sure. So. Hans's father said, "You know what? He's.

developed all these really uh specific. anxieties. Um he feels really uneasy. without mom around and he's really. fixated on male genitalia, especially. horse genitalia. And Freud was like, "Yes, yes, I see. Very interesting.". Yeah. Uh I'm sorry everybody. Uh so he. basically said, "This all just makes. total sense. Check this out." Hans's. father. All of this comes from a. foundational animosity that he has.

towards you, his dad. And the reason. that he's afraid of horses because the. horses represent you, his dad. And he's. afraid that you, his dad, are going to. castrate him because he secretly wants. to sleep with his mother even though. he's four years old. And um Freud's. sickopantic secretary jumped to his feet. and started applauding uh uncomfortably. loudly. Yeah. Which this you know if you went. into a a you know a shrink today and you.

heard something like this, you'd say, "Thank you for your time. I'll be going. to see someone else." You could actually. probably file suit for something like. that. Yeah, you probably could. Uh but. at the time this turned out to be like. the foundational legacy of Freud's. psychoanalysis. Uh, which is just, you know, bananas to. think about. Uh, should we talk about. girls first? Uh, and take a break or a. break and then girls. Uh, let's talk. about girls. Okay. Because there are. such things as girls. And Freud was. like, "Well, I guess I should probably.

talk about the girls, too." He didn't. come up with the name Electra Complex. That was Carl Jung, but he did take the. um Ediple Complex and apply it to girls. and basically said, "Same thing, but do. the old switcheroo with the parents. The. girls want to sleep with their father. and they hate their mother. Um, but the. whole thing is not to do with castration. anxiety. It's penis envy in girls. That's right. Uh, and what I mentioned. is the first key. And by the way, I. realized how creepy that sounded when I.

said let's talk about girls. Okay. I. take it that way. Okay, good. uh his. proposal was and this is very key was. that a kid that does not undergo this. experience of the ediple complex will. not fully mature sexually and they will. be stuck for life. They're going to be. stuck identifying with the opposite sex. parent and they will never be able to. have a normal socially acceptable uh. love life and desires for people who. aren't in their family. Yeah. He he.

basically said that that an incomplete. de development through the edible. complex is the basis of homosexuality. That's how he would have put it at the. time. And then the other problem of it. is you're stuck in that portion of your. development doomed to forever like go. through it even though you're never. going to go get past it. And he said. that um guys like that turn out to be. real Norman Bates types. And all of his. colleagues were like who is Norman. Bates? And Freud was like, "Just wait. Just wait, cuz he's going to knock your.

socks off when he comes along in the. early 60s.". Uh, I guess we take our break now. Yes. All right. We'll be back right after. this. [Music]. Just the surface. [Music].

learning things with. you know. [Music]. Okay, Chuck. So, we're back. So, the big. question is, is all of this weird gross. stuff correct? Answer me. Well, uh, most. psychologists today and and the the. world of psychology as a whole are. pretty like um bashful about even.

talking about this. They're like, can we. just kind of forget all that stuff? We've moved on. It's completely. discredited. Um, most of Freud's. theories are pretty discredited at this. point. But that's not to say that there. isn't some support for this still. No, there have been papers that have come. out that seem to very strongly support. the the presence of Freud's Edipus. complex. And one came out in 2009. It. was published in the proceedings of the. Royal Society B. Um and it made.

international news when it was published. because they studied the similarities, the physical characteristic similarities. between um men's mothers and their. wives. And they measured everything as. as like jaw length. They did everything. Um, and they c they they were coming up. with correlations in like the 92nd. percentile. So essentially like. photocopies between mom and wife and. they were like, "See, guys really want. their moms. What you going to do? Dogs.

going to hunt?" kind of thing. And um, like I said, it made international news. And um, luckily some other scientists were like, "Let me see your data." And went through. and they're like, "This is this does not. support your conclusions at all.". Yeah, here's the thing. Uh, I'm going to. go out on a limb. Hold on to your hats, okay? I'm going to go out on a limb and. say I've seen plenty of examples where. uh kids end up um. married to someone that is maybe in some.

way like like a really good parent that. they had of the opposite sex or maybe of. the same sex even. Um, I don't. necessarily think like it's the looks. thing, but like if you're like a a. really awesome dad and you're like super. fun and funny and you know, maybe you. have a certain job like and your. daughter goes on to marry somebody who. has got like a great sense of humor and. is maybe have a similar interest as. something your father did. Like I think. that can be a thing. I don't think it's.

always a thing. Uh but it's just sort of. when you're raised with a parent that. you look look up to and love and admire, you may seek out people like that in. your life. And I think that's kind of. all that is. I think similarly and maybe. even more frequently or commonly, people. inadvertently or unconsciously seek out. people who are like their parents in the. worst ways. Yeah. Or or sometimes. completely seek out the opposite. Yes. But that's more conscious. Yeah. Maybe.

so. But yeah, I see what you mean for. sure. Yeah. So again, there have been. there was another paper in the 80s that. studied rats that basically it said like. yes, the these rats at least have edipus. complexes that carry on. So luckily. psychology came up with some other stuff. that says like, okay, kids do stuff like. this when they're young, but we don't. think it's the Edipus complex. And. luckily things like attachment theory, which we did an entire episode on that. was pretty good. Yeah. have come along. way less creepy. Way less creepy.

They've come along and and offered. pretty good structures for understanding. child development that is just much less. icky than than Freud's. So, you're just. going to summarize that rat study? You're not going to talk about rat. ejaculation? Do you want me to? No, I. think we should just leave that right. there. Okay, cool. So, I think more than. ever short stuff is out. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts of. iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio.

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