Short Stuff: Killing a Dead Body | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. It's Josh, it's Chuck, and we're both. alive for now. >> Well, I tell you what, buddy. If I was. ever dead, I would I would want you to. make sure of it by killing me again. >> Yeah, but you'd be setting me up for a. real legal quagmire that probably would. not break in my favor, Chuck. So, I. don't know if I can guarantee that. Uh, I wish I could do a good impression of. the late uh actor/magician.

slash kind of comedian Ricky Jay. >> because anyone who's ever seen the uh to. my mind great uh PT Anderson movie from. 1999 Magnolia. >> It is great. >> uh will recall and if you're interested. by the way uh our friend of the show um. Josh's boyfriend Adam Pranica. was on my PT Anderson series on Movie. Crush. So, we covered Magnolia and all. the PT Anderson movies before the show. ended. That is. >> I've got one even better than you. >> What's that?

>> Um, our another friend of the show, um, Paul F. Tommpkins. Oh, yeah. PF. Tommpkins, not PT Anderson. >> He did a script reading for Magnolia at. the table with all the actors and. apparently was not doing well enough for. Tom Cruz not to say something like, "Can. we can we keep getting this right?" or. something. It's a hilarious story. I've. never heard that. >> Where Tom Cruz is essentially like being. mean to PF Tomkins for not doing a good. job script reading. >> Well, that I sort of like Tom Cruz until. then because Pollock Tomkins is a. national treasure and he was actually in.

the movie There Will Be Blood because uh. I don't know, maybe he did such a good. job at that table reading. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's another PT Anderson. film, right? >> Yeah. >> Where he goes, I I'm done with drinking. milkshakes or something. >> That's it. I don't want any more. milkshake. Thank you. I think is the. line. Why are we why are we talking. about u Magnolia Chuck? >> Because once again at the beginning of. that movie there's a series of. vignettes. Uh Ricky Jay narrates them. and the first I think it's the first. one. I'm I don't recall but it's a very.

kind of cool sequence. >> uh where there's this story is told uh. where a guy named Sydney Behringer. >> um attempted suicide but it became a. suicide. He the long and short of it is. he he jumped out of a window. Mhm. >> Uh his parents lived in the apartment or. in an apartment below him. >> And as he jumped and was falling uh to. what he thought would be his death, uh. his mom and dad got into an argument. His mom aims a shotgun um at the dad. The gun goes off. It goes through the.

window, missing the father, and kills. the son on his way down to land. Uh the. kid, the guy didn't know this when he. went to jump off the building, but there. was a net down there that would have. caught him and saved his life. Yeah. So, it went from him him taking. his own life to his mom murdering him to. his suicide being ruled uh an attempted. one. He couldn't have completed it. because of that um net. But it gets even. crazier because when the police show up, the mom and dad say, "We have no idea.

how this shotgun was loaded. We use it. to threaten one another all the time, so. we know not to load it." And upon more. investigation, they found that Sydney. had loaded it. So he loaded the gun that. killed him and so the medical examiner. ruled it a suicide after all. >> That's right. Uh this story is not true. as it turns out. It was based on the. story of Ronald Opus which came from an. oral story uh of the president of the. American Academy of Forensic Sciences,

Don Harper Mills. In 1987, he told the. story at a banquet, eventually found its. way to the internet, but Mills maintains. that he made it up to illustrate how uh. turning up new evidence can completely. alter the outcome of a coroner's ruling. >> Right. >> And it's a really good example of just. how how. strange turns of events in in evidence. collection can completely alter a. medical examiner's ruling on the cause. of death. And that also applies to an.

entirely like niche. um I guess area of legal legal. scholarship, >> which is can you murder uh someone who's. already dead? And it turns out it's not. nearly as straightforward as you would. think. >> All right, let's take a break. What a. tease. And we'll come back with more. talk of uh boogie nights and heartache. right after this. [Music].

S Y SK. S Y. SK K SK. [Music]. >> So, uh, Chuck, we we're talking about. whether it's possible legally to murder. a dead body. Obviously, physically it's. not. And there's actual case law. Yeah. Where people have done something like. this and legal scholars, prosecutors,

um, defense teams, juries have had to. sort this out. >> And one of the best known ones came in. France in 1986. >> That's right. With the death of Mure. Wilkins. Uh, Mure Wilkins got in a brawl. with Monsure Sho. Is that right? Okay. Well, >> I mean, it's Missur Sho. >> What did I say? >> Monsure. How do you pronounce it? >> Msure. >> Really? Why is it m o n? Is that all. silent? >> It's just the French doing their French.

thing. >> So msure isn't isn't a thing at all. >> No, it's msure. >> I've heard of msure. I just thought this. was a more formal title or something. >> No, no, that's spelled m. That's weird. >> That's the famous Msure. >> All right. So. >> So Msieur Sharro. >> All right. So Msieur Sharro was in this. brawl with Ms. Wilkins. Wilkins was. knocked unconscious by an iron bar by. Misho Shro. >> And then Mishro used that same iron bar. to strangle Mure Wilkins. The next day,

another dude, Misure. Pedro, >> very nice, >> uh, came along and was like, "Hey, this. Wilkins guy is still alive, and so I'm. gonna I'm gonna beat him to death with a. glass bottle and strangle him just to. make sure that he's dead." The medical. examiner found that uh Shirro had uh. actually killed him. So he was dead. >> So then the question remains uh what. happens to Pedro when he commits this um. seeming act of murder on a dead body.

>> Right? So there's an actual answer for. this. Um and before we get to the. answer, we have to talk about a couple. of legal things and another case. Okay? Uh-huh. >> So the people who are arguing against. Perau's guilt, so say his defense team. said he he cannot be charged with murder. or even attempted murder because. murdering uh Msieur Wilkins was a legal. impossibility. It was impossible for him.

to complete this act. Uh which means. that he can't possibly be guilty of it. And that was apparently a long-standing. idea in um law that of this idea of. illegal impossibility and um guilt, right? And so some people said, "Okay, that's actually a pretty good. explanation. I think he he might not be. guilty." And other people said, "Wait, wait, wait. Forget this legal. impossibility mumbo jumbo. What we think. is more important is intent." What did. he intend to do? He thought that.

Willilakans was uh still alive when he. tried to murder him. So his intent was. to murder this man. Therefore, he's. guilty of attempted murder. And. everybody said, "What to do? What to. do?" Sacro. That's right. I thought that. was sacred blow. So, uh they said we must look to see if. there's any precedent. Uh that was in. the 80s. And uh I don't know if they. actually looked at the American case or. not cuz you can't really set precedent.

on someone else's uh country, right? >> No. No, it's not precedent necessarily, but I think like it's out there. Sure. Yeah. >> Okay. So, New York City 1975, 11 years. before the French incident as it's known. by me only. >> There were some dudes drinking in an. apartment. Three guys drinking. Uh the. guy's apartment was Michael Geller and. another guy, Joe Bush, had been staying. there kind of freeloading, staying with. the guy. And they were sitting there. getting a little more drunk. Obviously. some hottheads, uh hotheads kind of.

guys. >> Yeah. >> And Geller started saying like, "Hey. dude, you've been crashing here. I need. some rent. Why don't you start chipping. in on rent?" This thing escalated such. that Bush eventually shot him three. times in the chest. And the guy falls to. the floor. And then the third guy comes. in, Melvin. uh Duggash and stands over. Geller and fires five more shots into. his head. Both of these guys are charged. obviously with murder, but once again, uh Dugash, his defense was, hey, this.

guy was already dead or at least you. can't prove that he was alive when I. shot him five times in the head. He was. initially convicted of murder, but it. was overturned um saying that you can't. prove that he was dead, so you can't. charge me with murder. >> Right. And I just want to say this seems. like a fairly shocking crime, but this. took place while there was still lead in. America's gasoline, >> right? Yeah. >> So, um, yeah, like you said, Blue Gash, I that's the best way you could say that. horrible name. >> Yeah.

>> Um, he got off because, yeah, the the. prosecution couldn't prove that Geller. was still alive. And New York Supreme. Court said, "No, no, not so fast. It. doesn't matter whether Geller was still. alive. you thought he might have still. been alive, which is why you shot him. five times in the head. And we're going. to throw out this idea of legal. impossibility, and adopt basically a new. framework, or at least we're going to. take an existing framework and basically. make it the framework, which is intent.

Yeah, >> that is that like what you intended to. do determines your guilt or innocence, not the actual fact or possibility of. whether you could have done what you. were trying to do, >> right? Specifically, uh the charge is. attempted murder. What you can't do is. charge somebody with murder, >> right? >> Because you can't murder a corpse. It's. just not scientifically, forget legally, it's not scientifically possible. >> to kill something that is already dead. >> Uh but attempted murder, you certainly. can. And so the French high court uh.

weighs in on the Peru case. >> with Molshure. >> Man, what a dope. >> No, this is a this is an instant classic. because of that. >> Uh and they came to the same conclusion. and they said, "All right, you're guilty. of attempted murder then because our our. friend the Yanks across the Pond um they. informed our opinion on this perhaps.". >> Yeah, perhaps. So there's there's at. least one more that we want to call out. This actually happens.

with surprising frequency. I would not. think that there would be more than one. or two cases, but there are some here or. there. One that I saw was that it's. sometimes used to prosecute cops who. shoot people a bunch of times. Um, there. was a cop in Toronto uh who a guy came. at with a knife and he shot him three. times and the guy dropped and then he. went up and shot him a bunch more times. when the guy was on the ground and the. jury said, "Nope, that was a legal. illegal murder. we can't we can't. convict you of murder because this is in. the line of duty. Um and it was the.

bullets after the shots after that we. can now convict you of attempted murder. >> Yeah. Uh it also happened to our dear. friends in Australia. >> in the case of what looks like a mercy. killing uh in 2014 uh near one of our. favorite cities, Melbourne. >> Uh two guys, Daniel Darington and Rocky. Spartacus. uh Matt Scassy. What a name. >> Yeah. Uh they got in a fight, were. struggling over a gun. Uh the gun went.

off. Um well, I was about to say killed. It struck uh Matt Sass Matt Scassy in. the head. Uh his body's on the ground. twitching around and stuff. And uh. Darington um shoots him. He's like, "Hey, I don't want this guy." And the. quote was didn't want the bloke. suffering. And uh killed him uh for. sure. Then went back, got more bullets, and then shot him again. and he was. charged with murder and the the jury. said, you know, we can't find him guilty. uh because the prosecution didn't kill.

that you intended to kill him when the. gun went off to begin with, >> right? But they did find him guilty of. attempted murder because he demonstrated. quite clearly that he thought Matt. Cassie was still alive and shot him to. kill him, however merciful the act was. supposed to be, right? And he got. convicted of attempted murder for that. one. >> Wow. >> Had he not had he not. >> tried to be merciful and put Matt Cassie.

out of his misery and just the the. initial shot had killed him, he would. have he wouldn't have um been convicted. of anything at all. >> Yeah, it would have been, I guess, a. struggle, maybe even self-defense. Who. knows how they would have framed it. >> Yeah, for sure. So, I guess that's the. that's the takeaway here. If um somebody. is potentially already dead, call an. ambulance. >> Yeah. This kind of thing I feel like is. in movies a lot. Uh I feel like it often. comes up as like to prove your loyalty. to the organization. Like someone's in. there like I killed most of them, you.

got to finish them off so we're both. liable or whatever. >> Oh yeah. >> I see that a lot of movies. I feel like. >> Sure. Uh short stuff. I I guess it's. out. Stuff You Should Know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].