Shameful History: Project 100,000 | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff You Should Know. with a happy, fun, upbeat edition of. Stuff You Should Know. Uh, another entry in the shameful. American history. Yeah. Bucket. Uh, do. want to thank a listener for this idea. By the way, this came from David Bryant.

No relation. Are you sure? Yeah, I don't have any. The only David. in my family is my cousin and he is a. Mills. Okay. David, uh but specifically David. Bryant's mom, I believe, gave David this. idea or asked David uh if those boys. ever did a show on the one project. 100,000. And we also should shout out a. writer uh Hamilton Gregory who was a. Vietnam vet and journalist and who wrote. a book McNamera Spali Colon the use of.

low IQ troops in the Vietnam War which I. guess sort of gives away what we're. talking about. Yeah. Because the name of. the project project 100,000 certainly. doesn't. Yeah. I mean another name of it was. McNamera's Morons uh from uh Defense. Secretary Robert McNamera, but that name. is awful. So, I'd love to not use it. again. Yeah, it's ridiculously. derogatory. Even when this was going on. in the mid60s to the very early '7s, it. was still quite derogatory. It hadn't.

been like a medical term since like the. 19s. So, it was just mean all around. And that's pretty appropriate because. this whole idea, this project, which was. a um wartime effort to essentially lower. the standards for military recruitment. so that people with low enough IQs that. they were either borderline or mildly. cognitively challenged would be. acceptable into military service. And it.

depends on who you ask what the purpose. was. We'll go into both of them. Yeah. Yeah, but for the most part it seems. like it probably was as as bad as it. seems on its face that it wasn't an. actual like good idea ever among. anybody. Yeah. Uh I mean that's that's a. great setup for a change for us. You. know, usually people are like, "What is. this even you're talking about?" Yeah. And how did you guys confuse me already? We're only in minute two. Yeah. So, uh I.

guess we'll just dive right in. Uh I. mentioned Robert McNamera who was uh. during the Vietnam War uh was the. secretary of defense and this was an. idea that wasn't something that he just. thought of then uh we'll get into it but. he had thought of this idea previously. but it was also something the US. military had faced previously when it. came wartime and they found out that. like hey uh we had a real problem with. not having enough soldiers. We really. overestimated how many um like you know.

fit uh literate men were qualified to. serve because this is what what a time. when it was I mean was it exclusively. men? Yeah. World War II for sure at. least for combat roles. I think there. were other roles for women but as far as. combat's concerned yes definitely. Yeah. And so they uh and that was also the. first war which is one reason they had. this shortage uh that the first war that. they had these really kind of big leaps. forward in technology with you know. weaponry and communications to where. they had specialists that you know the.

brightest of the bright that did that. stuff right and everyone else is in. combat. So once they had the specialists. assigned they were like hey we don't. have enough like frontline dudes. No. So. they had a choice. They could either. say, um, some of you specialists, we may. have, um, assigned you to radar duty too. hastily. We need you to be on the front. lines because we don't have enough. combat soldiers. Or they could lower. their standards to allow more people. into um the army or infantry, so they. would automatically be combat soldiers.

Yeah. And one guy said, "But my name is. Radar." Right. And he said, "Well, just. get over to the mass unit then." Yeah. Man, that show was not funny to me. Is Is this the first time I'm hearing. this? I don't know. Maybe. You're not a. MASH fan? No. I thought you love MASH. No. I remember like hanging out with my. dad while he watched it and he would. like laugh and clap and everything and. I'd be like, "This is not funny." And. then I grew up and I'm still like, "This. is not funny." Wow. That's funny because.

the other day, uh, RIP Loretta Swit who. just passed away, Hot Lulahan. M I was. remarking on Paul Tommpkins Instagram. page cuz he did a little tribute to her. that it's like it's so funny for me to. think back of being like a 12-year-old. kid watching a movie about alcoholic. surgeons in the Korean War on Thursdays, five times a day, every other day of the. week, four times a day. I ate it up. I. thought it was the best thing ever. Well, I liked the movie.

Interesting. Why do you dislike the movie but like. the show? No, I mean the movie is it's. the great Robert Alman, so I certainly. love it, but uh I just think it's. interesting. Yeah, I thought you were a. mash guy. I never knew. I mean, once. they got rid of Trapper John, I was. like, I'm done with even giving this a. chance. But this is what I like about. our friendship is we're still learning. about each other after all these years. Yeah. And we can still get along despite. our views on MASH. This is going to take. me a minute, but it'll be fine. So, we left off basically before this.

little tangent that the army had a. decision either lower their standards to. allow more combat troops in or get some. of those specialists off to the front. lines and they're like, "We'll just go. ahead and lower our standards." Yeah. And they did that. Uh they lowered the. intelligence standards and uh they were. pretty surprised. They were like, "Wow, uh a lot of you guys um maybe are. illiterate and can't read. Um maybe you. can't understand basic orders even." Uh, we knew obviously this is in the 1940s,

we knew so much less about um mental. challenges and different intelligences. and learning disabilities and like you. were either this or you were that back. then. And so all of a sudden they said, "Oh, well, we got a lot of that." And we. thought it would be a little more like. guys like this, right? So I think they. they managed to get 350,000. men at least. uh they kind of opened the. floodgates during World War II. This is. just between 42 and 45. But the caveat.

to this is that the military provided. remedial education classes. Like you. would sign up for three years. They. would teach you, they'd spend some of. this time teaching you what you didn't. learn in high school because maybe you. dropped out or maybe your high school. sucked. Um maybe you had to work in the. fields half of the day so you didn't get. a full education. the army educated them. to bring them up to the level that their. former standards met, right? Yeah. Or. tried to at least. Yeah. They did their. best. Uh and then after World War II.

ended and Hitler uh was dead, dead. Um. the army was like, well, the military in. general said, "We're going to re raise. our standards back to the where they. were before." Yeah. Exactly. And then. they need needed to make the movie MASH. and then later the TV show. So they. started the Korean War. Well, wait. The. Rosenberg started the Korean War, don't. forget. That's right. Uh, no, the Korean. War came along and um they had the same. problem, of course. So, they lowered the. standards again, of course, and there.

was another scramble to kind of get. ready. And so, they were like, you know, guys, before we go into our next war, which we should do pretty soon. Uh, we. need to like have a real plan in place. for this. Um, and and you know, get the. manpower we need the right way. Uh, and. so part of that w, you know, led into. what led to project 100,000. Yeah, that. wasn't all though. No, that wasn't all. Um, there was this uh this I don't know. how much faith to put in this. So, let's.

just let's just present it as if it's. real and we'll let the listeners decide. Okay. But there is a senator um named. Daniel Patrick Moyahan. He was a. longtime sitting senator for New York. um prior to that in in the era that. we're talking about, he was assistant. secretary of labor under both Kennedy. and LBJ, he was actually one of the. architects of the war on poverty. And I. don't know if it was his idea or he just. really bought into this idea, but it was. that there's a bunch of people who.

aren't fit for military service either. because they're overweight or. underweight or because they're not. intelligent enough to pass the basic. intelligence standards. I think he found. like 30% of American men weren't fit for. military service because of those. standards. So he said, "Okay, rather. than like go back to the beginning and. try to fix the educational system, let's. just get these people into the army and. let the army kind of like polish them up.

so that once they're done with their. hitch, they can become productive. members of society. And even better, we're taking people out of like abject. poverty, giving them a chance to have. like a a a life for themselves and. provide a stable um a stable home for. their children who can then go on to. become middle class and so on and so. forth and the cycle of poverty will be. broken. That's what Daniel Patrick. Moahan was saying. Yeah. And he had a. lot of people on his side. It wasn't.

some hugely controversial thing to. propose. Uh it was at a time when it was. like, you know, you got a you got a kid. who's a problem, send him into the army. and you know, they'll they'll shape you. up into a real man and a productive. member of society. It was kind of the. way of thinking at the time. So much so. that uh John F. Kennedy and uh Lyndon. Mains Johnson, they were big-time. believers in this. They they were both. like fully fully on board. So we just. want to make that clear. It wasn't just. one or two people um making these. decisions and there were presidents. going, "I don't know about that. That. doesn't sound like the best idea.".

Right. Um, we will kind of hit some. early critics cuz there were some, but. people were kind of steaming ahead, you. know, full steam ahead with this. Steaming ahead, full steam ahead. Mhm. That's really steamy. That's full steam. Uh, yeah. Kennedy said in 1963, our uh, today's military rejects include. tomorrows or hardcore unemployed. You know, it's funny. I have or written. down on my thing. Do you really? Oh, yeah. That was the worst Kennedy. anyone's ever done, but that was my.

best. I know we're all frightened and horny, right? Uh, and the LBJ for his part. Can. I do LBJ? Yeah, please do. He was a. country guy, right? Uh, Texan. Yeah. Yeah. We'll teach him to get up at. daylight and work till dark and shave. and bathe. And when when we turn him. out, we'll have him prepared at least to. drive a truck or a bakery wagon or stand. at a gate. Mhm. That was more um a. gentleman dressed in a Sears sucker suit. at the Kentucky Derby, I think. All. right. Either way, the LBJ did that.

Hey, it was better than Mike Kennedy. How about that? Uh it was fine. Uh so. you mentioned that we were going to kind. of run into some of the critics early um. to this idea. And the the first vocal. critics were the military leaders. themselves. They were like, "This is no, we don't want to do this. we we're not. the army's not to rehabilitate and. educate people who got left behind in. school. Um do something else with them. Uh there were other people who are like, "Yeah, there's this thing called. JobCore. Have you heard of JobCore?

That's what that's for. Don't send them. to the military." So it wasn't like a a. home run once it left the Oval Office. and started to spread outward on Capitol. Hill. Yeah, for sure. Uh but that's. where it did go because in 1966. is when Robert McNamera formally. announced project 100,000. Uh but this. was like I mentioned uh not only the US. military tried to do this before but. McNamera himself had tried this before. Uh two years earlier in ' 64 he proposed.

something called the special training. enlistment program or the step program. Uh and this was not full project. 100,000. It was a little more like, hey, we got a uh like 40,000 guys that didn't. meet the standards, but they're super. close. Uh maybe they're just below the. the IQ test level, or maybe they need to. put on a few pounds or shave a few. pounds. And this step program was. intended to kind of correct those guys. up quickly uh into getting getting on.

board, but it would cost a little bit of. money. they would enlist for 3 years, receive this special training, and that. special training was going to cost about. 16 million bucks. So, Congress said, "Uh, no, we're we're not going to pay. for that." No. And one other thing, you. kind of mentioned it, is that they were. going to get remedial instruction like. the the soldiers in World War II got, right? That was part of the program. That was what the 16 million was for. Okay. So, Congress said no, like you. said, and McNamera is like, "Okay, whatever. I'm just going to move on. I. have other things to do right now." um.

like agitate for escalation in Vietnam. And in uh 1966, apparently he was. chatting with some Marines and they made. mention that they had actually set up. their own little special training. program so that the recruits who weren't. cutting it or hacking it could be kind. of like brought up to minimum standards. themselves. and he had a a Eureka light. bulb moment basically saying like I'm. going to steal that idea and make it. militarywide and that way Congress.

doesn't have to have their greedy little. fingers in it because I can just use. their regular training budget for this. kind of thing. Yeah. And they can uh you. know those Marines had their private. piles that they got up to speed and. turned them into killing machines just. like in the movie. Yeah. I mean, Private. Pile is based on this Project 100,000. we're about to talk about, like 100%. Yeah. And I feel like Forest Gump has. got to be Yeah. inspired by this even. though that was never a part of the.

movie that at least made it into the. movie. I don't know about original. script if he had any kind of special. training or anything. I don't know. Or. the book by Winston Groove. It's. possible that he ran across that in the. research. But not just Forest, but Bubba. as well. Oh, yeah. Good point. Yeah. So, I say we take a break and come back and. and um talk about how Project 100,000. actually kind of made it. Let's do it. [Music].

All. [Music]. right. So, where we left off is. Magnamera found a workaround from the. official step program to basically an. unofficial step program. And in 1966. they found that they really needed this.

because they had a a pretty dire. manpower situation because well one. reason is because of the incredible. amount of deferments. Um I saw some. stats that from draft eligible men in. 1966 um 60% of them took some sort of. action to gain a deferment. A lot of. them rushed off to get married because. initially there was a marriage. deferment. Um, a lot of them went to. college that maybe weren't too keen on. it because there was a college. deferment. There were medical. deferments. There were certainly uh.

wealthy kids who had their parents uh. pay their way out of the war with things. like medical deferments. Uh there were. conscientious objector deferments, like. 170,000 of those. Uh people having kids, like they they sort of started moving. the goalpost a little bit with the. marriage and kids thing. Um because at. first it was like if you're married, you're not going. But then they're like, "Actually, we need to marry you guys. maybe if you just don't have kids." So. guys started having kids. So long way of. saying they needed they needed.

infantrymen on the front line. Uh. another way to avoid it was obviously. joining something like the National. Guard or the Coast Guard. Yeah. Because. then you could be like, I'm that the. Coast Guard is almost certainly not. going to Vietnam. I'll join the Coast. Guard so I can serve and help out, but. I'm not going to be shipped off to. Vietnam. Some people also just fled the. country, went to Canada. Sweden was. another place where what are called. draft dodgers ran off too. Um yeah, so. yeah, there were a lot of people. particularly middle class and higher who.

were just basically not having to go. fight in Vietnam, right? Yeah. And the. other reason why they needed people or. the basic reason why they needed a bunch. of people all of a sudden or fighting. men I should say on the front lines is. because in 1966 the US sent combat. troops to the ground um in Vietnam in. South Vietnam. to that point um the US. had been nothing but advisers and. trainers and then there was the Gulf of. Tonkan incident where a navy ship was. fired upon that kind of brought you the.

US into the war and we started like. doing firebombing raids and then finally. they were like we need infantry men and. that's when they really needed um a. bunch of people to go fight in Vietnam. and that's when project 100,000 was like. yeah let's let's do this because we need. to Yeah and I mean I didn't even look it. up but I imagine were They trying to get. 100,000 soldiers. Was that that number. per year? Oh, per year. Okay. Cuz they. ended up getting far more than that. They did. Uh they were officially active.

with this project from October 1st 66. through the end of the year 71. So about. 5 years. Uh and there were early critics. of this, you know, official program uh. as well. Uh and a lot of them um you. know, kind of make sense, but a lot of. them early on were civil rights leaders. Uh there was a congressman named Adam. Clayton Powell who said this is genocide. for poor black Americans. Uh it's. nothing more than killing off human. beings that are not members of the. elite. But nevertheless, they pushed on. Yeah. Um I mean the very fact that these.

these men came from high levels of. poverty and uh had learning disabilities. in a lot of cases meant that they were. not going to get any kind of college. deferment. They were almost certainly. not in college. and even if they were, they weren't doing a good enough job to. get a deferment. And then secondly, national guards almost to a state were. still segregated. So if you were black, you couldn't go join the National Guard. and and not be shipped off to Vietnam. So these were a really vulnerable. population of people that they tapped.

into with Project 100,000. Yeah. And they they called these guys. New Standards recruits, uh, capital N, capital S. And uh most of those New. Standards guys were sent to Vietnam. Um. out of those guys, about half of them. served in combat roles. And this is what. that looked like. Yeah. And I think. there were a total of 354,000 men who. were admitted in that time. 91% hadn't. met the previous minimum IQ. requirements. And the median score on.

the armed forces qualification test, which measured intelligence, among other. things, um was uh 13.6. which meant that the new standards men. had an IQ average around 75 whereas for. all recruits the average was IQ of about. 100 and that's the average IQ I saw that. 70 is the cutoff the beginning of mild. cognitive disabilities so if 75 is the. average that means there are people with. real cognitive disabilities who were in.

this 354,000 men who were part of. project 100,000 yeah 48% of those guys. were from the south uh compared to 28%. of the total recruits and 38% were. non-white uh when uh minorities at the. time made up just about 10% overall. Right? So you can imagine that um these. these men who didn't meet the minimum. requirements that had previously been. met um some of them couldn't even meet.

these new lowered requirements. And so. recruiters stepped in and did some. really shady stuff to get people into. this project 100,000 shoot. Yeah. Recruiters, I mean, they can say. whatever they want because they're not, you know, you can't go back and said, "Oh, well, my recruiter said I wasn't. supposed to go to the front line." Uh, that just doesn't fly. So, they could. say whatever they want. They could say, "You're not going to go to the front. line. Maybe you won't even go to. Vietnam. uh you may be, you know, you're. going to get really great job training.

uh and set you up great for later in. life after you get out of the army. Their job is to rec recruit you not to. be held to anything that they say. That's so wrong, man. Especially when. you're dealing with people with. cognitive disabilities, you know, for. sure. Especially people who are. illiterate and some of them were. illiterate. So the recruiters would. bring in ringers, people they paid to. take the tests for the qualification. tests for these these men who were the. new standardsmen. Um and they that I.

mean that's just fraud, you know. Yeah, for sure. Uh they were, you know, once. they uh got to basic training, they were. uh bullied. They were obviously um the. object of from their um you know, drill. sergeants and stuff like that. But they. were also bullied, you know, physically. and, you know, emotionally within their, you know, platoon. And they didn't have. any understanding a lot of times of even. what was going on when this was. happening. Yeah. That writer, Hamilton. Gregory, recounted the story of one.

recruit who um couldn't tell you what. state he was from, didn't know his left. from his right, wasn't aware that the US. was at war. Um, I mean like really. profoundly cognitively challenged men in. in some cases who had no business being. in the military. Not just because they. were potentially in danger or most. certainly in danger in a lot of cases, but they also posed a danger to other. people in their platoon as well because. they didn't know what they were doing.

Yeah, for sure. uh they did have those. special training companies set up like. you know Magnamera had envisioned uh you. know from the tip from those Marines but. a lot of times you know that didn't work. and even when they failed to get through. basic training they would just recycle. them back through until they pass or. just say you passed. Yeah. Those. recruiters also they use something. called uh administrative. acceptance. That's what it was where. they were given the power to say I think. you're flunking this test on purpose so. you're actually going to be admitted.

anyway. they could use that to um to. assign or to get these cognitively. challenged men into the army. Basically. saying like, I think you're smarter than. than your test reflects, right? So, um. there was just no way that they weren't. going to make it into the army and then. through basic training. And I mean, once. they once they got through basic. training, I think you said half or more. of them were shipped off to Vietnam and. I think the majority of them ended up on. the front lines. And the statistics.

about what happened to these men in. Vietnam are are just shocking, especially when you compare them to the. statistics for just the the military or. the army as a whole. Yeah. Uh 5,478. of them were killed in Vietnam, which. was a fatality rate three times higher. than your average soldier. Uh 1300 of. those were killed by mines and booby. traps. Uh because a lot of times they. were like just put one of those guys up. front and if they step on the landmine. then it's no big loss for us. Yeah. Uh.

20,000 of them were injured including. 500 amputees which is again at a at a. higher rate than other GIS. Yeah. I. think I saw like 50 something,000. people were killed me Americans were. killed in Vietnam. So like the new. standards men made up like 10% of that. which I mean that's just crazy. There. are also like a lot of horror stories. about these poor guys um and just the. the what happened to them over there. Uh.

there was one who um Hamilton Gregory. wrote about. He he would change the. names of these uh men and he uh changed. one of their names to Jerry. And Jerry. was on night guard duty at his uh post. in um Vietnam. And uh he was told that. if he saw anybody coming up to the fort. that he was to say halt and tell them to. to say who they were to identify. themselves, right? And even this basic. order, Jerry couldn't follow it because.

when he saw somebody moving in the. jungle, he just started opening fire. And it it turned out it was a an officer. from his camp. Uh and he killed him. He. he accidentally killed this officer. because he just started shooting because. he didn't know how to follow orders. You. know why guys like you and I aren't fit. for the military? Why? Cuz you had a. hard time coming up with the word order. Yeah. What what's it called? What that. Sar yelling us about? That thing he. wants us to do. Yeah, the the. instruction, but like angry instruction.

Angry instruction. I think that's a. definition of order is an angry. instruction. I think so, too. Uh they. also um and this is, you know, it gets. even sadder. Uh new standardsmen were. referred for psychiatric evaluation 10. times as frequently as other troops. Mhm. And you know they were obviously. going through a lot of anxiety, a lot of. depression, extreme agitation, and some. of them frequently attempted suicide uh. or you know went awall or attacked their. fellow uh soldiers which all of a sudden. you're in the stockade. Um you're.

getting a a conviction and a. dishonorable discharge which we're going. to talk more about in a minute. Yeah, that was a big a big issue. But I mean, I saw the A-wall thing described as like. I mean, imagine if everybody's really. mean to you, beats you up, and you just. don't understand why. Of course, you're. gonna want to get away from it if you. just can't make sense of that heads or. tails, right? So, AWOL, I mean, there. was a pretty good reason for a lot of. these guys to go AWOL. Um, and again, I. think Private Pile's experience in basic.

training was like pretty true to life. for what happened to some of these guys. And you know, Private Pile chose um Kill. and then die himself rather than Awall. But a lot of them chose AWOL instead. What a movie. Yeah, man. That movie is. just amazing. We're talking about Full. Metal Jacket, by the way, just in case. people are like, "What movie?" Yeah. So, good good call, man. Uh The Great. Stanley Kubri. Um should we take our. second break? Uh I think we should. Yes.

All right. We'll be right back and. finish up with Project 100,000. [Music]. [Music].

So, uh, I said there are a lot of horror. stories and there are a plenty um for. the McNamera boys or project 100,000. men. Um what's much harder to find are. positive stories, like hopeful stories. Um I could find two, but it turned out. they were actually the same guy. Yeah, this isn't a silver lining situation. No, definitely not. But the guy um his.

name was Mike Sanchez, uh not his real. name. and he had two different. experiences while he was in Vietnam. And. both of them were because he was. essentially adopted by his commanding. officers at both of his posts. Yeah. Which I mean that's still not a silver. lining, but at least there were some. compassionate officers who took these. guys under their wing and were like, I'm. going to try and see that this kid. doesn't go home in a in a pine box. Uh.

so thankful for that obviously. But uh. one of the things that happened was um a. soldier like this and and you know. apparently it happened to others is they. were they were given assignments um sort. of under the wing of that officer like. maybe be their driver. Uh and in this. case this guy was assigned to drive an. officer but couldn't drive and and. didn't have the capacity to learn how to. drive. So that instead of just you know. sticking it back on the front line this. officer drove himself and just had this. guy sit next to him in the passenger. seat. Yeah.

So, I mean, like that's really taking a. soldier under your wing. Like, that is. just straight up protecting him. That. was after um that was the second part of. Mike Sanchez's stint in Vietnam. The. first part of it, he actually. distinguished himself in battle. And. this is actually pretty similar to. Forest Gump if you think about it. Well, I think this might have been directly. inspired by that. That was my feeling. Okay. So, uh, Mike Sanchez, uh, when he. first got to Vietnam, uh, his first. commanding officer also took him under.

his wing to protect him and was like, "You have no business being here. I'm. going to see to it that you make it out. of here alive." And Mike Sanchez was the. kind of guy who just, if you were nice. to him, if you were kind to him, if you. treated him with respect, he would he. would loyal to you to the end. Like you. just captured his his heart. And that. happened with this first commanding. officer. He he felt deeply loyal to them. and they ended up in a firefight. together. Right. Yeah. And kind of just. like out of the movie Forest Gump. Uh.

the the officer um ended up in big. trouble. Uh Mike couldn't find him. Everyone said he's back there. He got. hit, but no one was going back to get. him. So, uh that's what this guy did. He. ran back uh ran back, you know, forgoing. his own safety. Uh called out for him, found him wounded. he couldn't move and. carried him to safety through some. serious, you know, bullet fire and was. uh got the silver star for that action. Yeah. Ain't that cool? It's pretty. great. Yeah. Mike Sanchez is just one of.

those rare hopeful or or nice stories. Uh he actually went on to become a. barber, which was his dream. Uh because. his brother was a barber, so he got to. go work with them after the army. Yeah. And again, don't bother googling because. his name is not Mike Sanchez. No. But. you can find an account of this by the. second CEO who who he was the driver. for. His name was Jim Bracewell. He. wrote an account about Mike Sanchez. It's worth reading for sure. Uh there. was another one. This is from uh Dave. Ruse. Uh one of these guys, his name was.

Elmer. I don't know if that's his real. name or not in this case, but he was uh. apparently just a real uh had a real. talent for keeping things super clean. and orderly. and he was assigned his his. assignment was to clean a sick bay on a. big Navy uh ship. And he he may not have. understood like what sterile meant and. things like that, but he really knew how. to get stuff done and keep the place. clean and sterile. And he apparently was. had a a pretty rare positive experience.

and that everyone loved this guy and. everyone thought he did a great job. And. that's sort of like that's sort of what. I was thinking earlier is, you know, they they knew so little about different. intelligences and things back then and. they probably could have found a lot of. roles that might have been suitable for. some of these guys. Instead, they were. just like, "We want warm bodies on the. front line because they're basically. expendable." Yeah. I mean, like. basically booby trap catchers. essentially. Yeah. So, yeah, those those. stories are very rare for the most part.

um the Project 100,000 recruits suffered. greatly and not just um in battle but. also at the hands of their own um. platoon members. Um like they just had. it horrible all around in a lot of. cases. And so it's not much of a. surprise that when they were studied. after they left Vietnam and came back to. the United States, um they had a much. harder time than even the average.

Vietnam vet who had a hard time uh. themselves. These guys had it even. harder. They were apparently. significantly more likely to suffer PTSD. compared to other vets. And that they. had harder time holding on a job. They. had a harder time with everyday living. and that they were more likely to. experience homelessness, drug addiction, and suicide than even the average. Vietnam vet. Yeah. Which, you know, the. the the big thumb in the eye in all this. is it was kind of posed as no, these.

guys are going to be so much better off. after serving their country in the army. Yeah. They're going to get better jobs. They're going to, you know, work themsel. up into a maybe lower middle class. situation when they came from poverty in. a lot of cases. And they've studied this. uh when compared to even when compared. to other low IQ Americans of the same. age. Yeah, this is big. Uh the veterans. had worse financial outcomes. Uh there. was a study in the 80s that found that. 10% of low IQ veterans were unemployed.

compared with only 3% of low IQ. non-veterans and earn less money. An. average of $18,000 a year compared to. $24,000 a year for non- veterans. Yes. And so again, just to just to clarify, they were supposed to have a better life. like you said after the war than and. they had a worse life. And one reason, a. huge reason why is something you um. touched on earlier. A lot of them, I. think something like half of them were. discharged under conditions other than.

honorable. And if you have anything but. an honorable discharge from the. military, you are stigmatized for the. rest of your life. Um, not only will. businesses typically not hire you, there's plenty of businesses who won't, the military itself, like the VA, um, will help you less than it will help. other vets. Like, it's harder to get. access to health care and to job. counseling and to all the things that. somebody like a Project 100,000 recruit. would need after they got back to.

America. That was shut down to half of. them because they were discharged. dishonorably. Yeah. I mean, it's just so. shameful. Uh there was at least one guy. there was a a recruiter who I guess felt. pretty bad about taking part in this. uh. his was a veteran named Bill Daniel and. he you know put a lot of thought into. this after the war and said you know. what I'm going to uh they called it bad. paper if you got a uh dishonorable. discharge and so he wanted to appeal as. many of these bad paper discharges as he. could and he was successful in uh 400.

cases uh you know 180,000 of them were. dishonorably discharged so 400 isn't. much but you know this for Bill Daniel. to. you know, to spend his time and his life. um getting 400 of these guys cleared is. pretty admirable. Yeah. Uh and then one. more thing about the bad paper, the. dishonorable discharges. Apparently. among project 100,000 recruits, the the. main reason that they that was given for.

their dishonorable discharge was that. they were unsuitable for the military. And that was the case from the outset. the military brought them on on purpose. anyway and then spit them out the other. end saying you should have never been in. the military in the first place and now. here's the stigma for you to carry. around for the rest of your life. Yeah, man. So, did Robert McNamera feel bad. about all this? because he's certainly. somebody who uh maybe more so than most.

uh secretaries of defense um looked back. a lot on his life and he wrote about it. and he and there was a memoir called in. retrospect colon the tragedy and lessons. of Vietnam he also very famously was in. the great Errol Morris's documentary the. fog of war where he talked at length. about things that he did right and wrong. so surely he looked back on project 100. as a big mistake right no no I could. tell by your tone that you knew do that. But he didn't. He actually did apologize. for things like um his involvement in in.

pushing for escalating the war in. Vietnam. Like he he wasn't one of those. guys. He's like, "Nope, I never did. anything wrong. You're all wrong." He he. soularched like you said more than most. other people uh in his position, but he. never apologized for Project 100,000. And I don't know what that says on like. on its face you would suspect well he. really was a true believer. He didn't. think it was a like he he wasn't doing. anything nefarious. But I mean these.

guys who were like planning and carrying. out the Vietnam War. You had to be. nefarious to be doing that you know. So. how much credit can you give them? How. much how much benefit of the doubt do. you give him? Yeah. I don't know. I. mean, the the uh vet that wrote that. book, Hamilton Gregory, uh he himself. was like, "Yeah, you know what? I I. think he actually had good intentions. I. think he really did think he could coach. them up into a better life and that the. military would be genuinely good for.

them and that it was just a tragic. misjudgment. um and not just a attempt to, you know, supply the front lines with warm. bodies." But, you know, that's that may. be generous. I don't know. Yeah. other. people like the guy who wrote um we were. soldiers, Joe Galloway. He was embedded. with the Seventh Cavalry in battle with. in Vietnam. Uh he actually was one of. the rare civilians decorated with the. Bronze Star for Valor during a battle he. was just a war correspondent in. Um he. was like, "No, this is unforgivable." He.

essentially said in a column the day. after McNamera died like just from. Project 100,000, he's on his way to hell. basically. Yep. I mean, that's what he. said. Not I'm not saying he's on his way. to hell, right? Yeah. And I'm. paraphrasing, too, but that's that's. basically what he said. Yeah. And I. think a lot of people agree with him for. that, too. Um, you got anything else? I. got nothing else. Uh, looking forward to. moving on to more positive stories.

Yeah. Who was the person that uh. suggested it? Uh, David Bryant's mom. Thanks, David Bryant's mom. We. appreciate that. That was a good idea. I'm glad uh we learned about it. I'm. glad we could tell everybody else about. it because it's not a very well-known. part of American history. Totally. Chuck. said totally. He just triggered listener. mail. Uh this is about our shorty. Uh can you. not have a name? Uh hi guys. My second. time emailing. Uh I just listened to Can.

You Not Have a Name? And had to email. about a most unusual name I've come. across in my 50 plus years of working. with the public. uh 30 in the restaurant. industry, 16 doing vacation rentals, and. now four and a half years owning a. flower shop. Nice. Uh about seven or. eight years ago, a customer uh came in. of Asian descent and gave me his credit. card that showed me his surname as Y. I. commented. I said, "What an unusual last. name." And he asked if he was if it was. a common Asian name. And he said, "Actually, my last name is only Y." Uh.

but American Express does not accept a. last name composed of just one letter, so I had to add the second Y. Well, just. to get the credit card. Uh, also, my. sister and I are both baby boomers, and. we were not given middle names, so we. could take our maiden name as our middle. name once we got married and not have to. drop that middle name. Oh, I never. thought about that. Oh, worked for my. sister, but I'm still single and looking. for a man with a short last name. Uh, what's her name? Uh, so this is Jane. Trinowski, who is the owner of Leavons.

Florals in Newport Beach, California. And I even went to the website. Looks. like a lovely flower shop business. And. so, uh, you know, pop in and see Jane if. you you're a boomer with a short last. name. Yeah. You could do a lot worse. than going to Newport Beach for a day or. two. Totally. Uh, well, thanks a lot, Jane. We appreciate that. We love. anecdotes and stories about stuff that. have to do with episodes we've recently. recorded. And if you have one of those, you can talk to us via email. Send it. off to Stuffpodcast@ iheartradio.com.

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