Selects: What Were the BONE WARS? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hello. Happy Saturday, everybody. What. were the Bone Wars? Why am I asking you? Because I'm the one who knows. Uh, this. episode was from August of 2019, and it. was all about the Bone Wars. Something I. knew nothing about until we did this. episode. One of the top three reasons. why I love this job. I get just a little. bit smarter every week, and I hope you. do, too. Please enjoy. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant and there's Jerry over there and. uh ra. that was a limp limp laugh, Chuck. I've. gotten way better laughs out of you than. that. Uh, are you a dinosaur? >> A little bit. I got a little dinosaur in. me. Got a little Neanderl in me.

>> I learned from 23 and me. >> Yeah. >> Um, but despite my dinosaur heritage, I. was never big time into dinosaurs as a. kid. Were you? >> No. >> Not like uh It's astounding, Chuck, how. similar we were as children. >> I know. Um, >> the only difference is I didn't smoke. when I was seven years old. >> 14. I was the ripe old age of 14 when I. started smoking. >> Um, so it wasn't like I don't know if it.

was the same with you. It's not like I. had anything against dinosaurs. >> or kids who like dinosaurs. >> I thought they were kind of cool and I. had some like like figurines here or. there, but it wasn't anything like I was. nerdy about in any way, shape, or form. >> Yeah. And I mean I I think there was. there's a certain movie that really. really got kids into dinosaurs. >> The Lost World. >> No, Ferris Peeler's Day Off, >> right? >> Uh and that movie came out, you know, when I was older. >> Yeah, same here. >> I think I was I remember what year that.

was. I feel like I was in college, though. >> Uh I want to say it was like 92 to 94, one of those years. That's what I would. guess. But kids these days are, and it's. not just my kid, but I I see lots of. kids in her age group that are obsessed. with dinosaurs. >> Yeah. And I think that's cool. Like what. a cool thing to be obsessed with. Like. it teaches you so much stuff, you know, about the deep past, about evolution, um about, you know, walking lizard bird.

creatures, you know, there's a lot. there's a lot to learn from like being. interested in dinosaurs. It's a very. cool thing to be interested in. >> about death and extinction. >> Sure. Rotting, fossilization. >> Yeah. All the good stuff, >> right? Um but uh the the the whole. interest, including the interest that. was around when we were kids that just. kind of passed us by, but definitely, you know, the the interest in dinosaurs. that gave rise to the idea of Michael. Kiteon even writing Jurassic Park and. then Steven Spielberg even making it.

into a movie. That interest in dinosaurs. in America, you can actually trace back. to almost a um a specific winter in a. specific place in the 19th century in. the winter of 1877 in particular. And it. was the result of a vicious, mean-spirited, petty rivalry between two. paleontologists. that really kind of sparked America's. interest in dinosaurs.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean it feels very uh. Tesla. Uh who was the other guy? >> Oh, what was his name? Maronei maybe or. uh Ferris Beller. >> Yeah, that it's it really reminded me of. the Tesla Ferris Buer rivalry. >> Ferris won that one fair and square. >> and the current wars which by the way. that movie is coming out. Have you seen. the trailer. >> about the current wars? >> No. Who plays who? >> You know, I can't remember now but I saw. it the other day and it looks it looks. pretty good. Nicholas Cage plays both.

roles. >> Oh god, how great would that be? >> It would be pretty great. >> AC DC, right? >> Just like that's two hours right there, >> right? Um there's actually going to be a. movie or there was going to be a movie. about what we're about to talk about. today. Did you know that? >> No. I kind of wondered though. >> Yeah, it was scheduled for production. Steve Carell was going to play uh Cope. >> Oh, >> and James Gandalfini was going to play. Marsh. and James Gandalfini died. unexpectedly and the production just got.

kaibosed. >> And they also found out that the title. The Bone Wars had already been taken by. a uh adult. >> pornography. >> Yep. >> We're so on the same page. >> We totally are. >> Children. >> No interest in Jurassic uh Park or any. dinosaurs, but we think the names of. porno films is hilarious. That's our our. big interest. >> So, uh I I thought it was funny. you. know, we we commissioned this piece for. uh for the Grabster, and he's a big. dinosaur guy,

>> and he was somewhat shamed. He was like, I I I just And he said it two or three. times, like, I can't believe I didn't. know about these guys. >> Yeah. We're like, it's okay, Grabster. It's all right. >> Yeah. But so, I feel like he learned. something along the way. Um and he. starts out and I think it's a good thing. for us to talk a little bit about just. um before these dudes, how pale. paleontology came about. >> Yeah. Um, and that had, you know, I. think since people just started. stumbling upon bones, even by accident, >> before it was even a discipline, >> people were like, "Oh, man, look at that.

thing. I'm going to pick that up and. take it with me.". >> Right? I think they used to get. classified also as mythological. creatures or dead gods or something like. that. Um, but the first documented. paleontological expedition in North. America was carried out by none other. than Lewis and Clark. >> Yeah. >> Did you know that before? Did we mention. that in the episode, do you think? >> I don't know. Oh, but I I did know at. some point from somewhere, maybe it was. the uh the Kin Burns piece, but that you.

know, one of the things they did, I. mean, they were they were logging. everything, including bone deposits, >> but they spent like a week um around. Salt Lake Flats or Salt Lake Gully or. Salt Lake something um where there was a. big old Salt Lake that used to attract. dinosaurs and um plecistine mammals. um. from two different periods. Everybody. put your emails away. Um and the bones. that would collect there were really.

significant. So they spent a week like. excavating there. But that was the first. one. But that was even before the world. the word paleontology was coined. >> Yeah. That was in 1822. in the French journal defazique. >> Mhm. >> And um there were a couple of people. that preceded uh and in fact um one of. whom went on to be a sort of a mentor. Mhm. >> to cope. But a guy named Edward. Hitchcock and another guy named Joseph. uh is it Lighty or Leidy.

>> Um I think Lighty is what I've seen the. most. >> Yeah. L E I D Y. Um and he's the one. that went on to to work with COP later. on. But uh just put a pin in this. But. in 1858, a pretty important find. Um. basically the the only big dinosaur find. on the east coast were the fossilized. bones of a herbivore named uh. Hedrosaurus Folky uh in New Jersey. And. it was a big deal because uh it was on. the east coast and this is where this. stuff was going on at the time. And you.

get a lot of footprints on the east. coast but not a lot of finds like this. >> Yeah, it was an enormous find. and um. Lighty uh was called in to help excavate. it and put it together because he was. America's first vertebraate. paleontologist. He was the the first guy and was really. prolific and really good at what he did. Um and like you said would eventually. become a mentor to one of the guys we. should probably introduce now. U because. Lighty was working in uh I think his.

first real burst of energy came in the. 1850s, the early 1850s. And um within about 15 maybe 20 years. there were a pair of guys who would come. along and just completely change the. field of paleontology. It started out. very normally just another scientific. field very exciting lots of discoveries. to be made. I mean that's the point of. all this right is that like if you have. a brand new scientific field everything. you come across is worth writing about. describing you get to name everything.

Yeah. >> So it was a really exciting like dynamic. time for the field of paleontology. But. but a field of science is the character. of it is based on its earliest. practitioners and Lighty um was a very. steady normal scientist who is very. reliable. So he kind of set paleontology. up like that. But then along came a. couple of guys who would form this. rivalry and they would change all of. that. Um, not I don't think necessarily.

to this day, but there was a a lot of. sniping that used to go on in the field. of paleontology that that was because of. the the tone that these guys set. >> Yeah. And both of them would end up uh. basically bankrupt at the end of each of. their lives. >> because of all their efforts to outdo. and undermine one another's work. Um, right. >> So, we're talking about two dudes. Uh, one is uh Marsh and one is Cope. Uh, on. an onneal.

I've never heard that name before. >> I I think his parents made it up. >> Maybe. O T H N I E L. An Oneal Charles. March. Uh, born in October 1831 in New. York. >> And he was um they didn't have a lot of. money in his family. Uh they were. farmers. Um he would have been a farmer, but he had and this kind of really. changed his life. He had a very rich. uncle named George Peabody. um who would. go on to really kind of fund his. education in early parts of his career.

later on. >> Yeah. He just plucked him out of the. farm field basically and said and I have. no idea why he did this, but he said you. I I like the look of you and your brain. nephew and you're going to go. >> super smart would be my guess. >> Was that it? Okay. Well, I don't know. how he demonstrated it, I guess, is what. I'm trying to say. Like how did his. uncle say yes, you're the one? >> Oh, you know, smarts are always evident. >> Okay. Well, he plucked him out, sent him. to boarding school, then sent him to. Yale, and eventually sent him off to. grad school in Germany. So,

um, Marsh, we're just going to call him. Marsh because his name is just too ugly. and horrible to say out loud. >> Yeah. >> Um, he was basically set. He was fine. He had a benefactor in his. extraordinarily wealthy, um, philanthropist uncle. >> Yeah. So Cope on the other hand um. similarly uh had money but his was like. in his family. He wasn't like poor with. a rich uncle. He had a wealthy family, right? >> Very prominent family in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He was born in July 1840.

>> and he went to you know all the uh I was. going to say trappings, but I guess all. the benefits of being born into money. He went to a very nice expensive. boarding school. Uh and that wasn't so. much up his alley. So he dropped out. when he was 16. >> And uh because he had a rich uh rich dad. um it allowed him a lot of opportunities. that other people wouldn't have uh. including you know going to college. later on even though he never graduated. high school.

>> Yeah. Well, so there so it was. definitely in part because of his dad, but also this was a time in like say the. 1850s. >> it was lax but also like even if you. wanted to go on and become like a um get. a PhD American universities weren't you. know they didn't offer many PhD programs. in sciences right. >> so there was a there was a whole um. something called gentleman naturalists. who were amateur self-taught,

>> right, >> um, scientists who just just did the. work. They knew what they were doing. They figured it out as they went along. and they actually developed some of. these fields. And so he kind of. subscribed to that school where um that. old school of gentleman naturalists. where there was you could you could go. figure it out yourself without needing. to go through the university. But he did. that uh just on the cusp. Like our. parents' generation was just on the cusp. of the last group who could get away.

without knowing how to use email, >> right? >> He was like part of that last generation. that could become a scientist without. having to go through formal training at. a university. >> Right. Like if you have a tweed suit. with a stiff collar and a pencil and a. pad, you can you can and lots of time on. your hands. >> Yeah. And that's that's I mean to to. Cope's credit I think that that really. kind of demonstrates like he's like no. I'm gonna go learn from experience and. he did. >> knocking it. >> but he did get entree into places like. the University of Pennsylvania or the.

Academy of Natural Sciences in. Philadelphia because of his family's. context. But I get the impression that. he worked his way uh into those places. once he got in. He he didn't just loaf. He learned uh what he needed to learn. >> Yeah. I mean, because if there's one. thing we're going to learn about Copier. over the next uh 30 minutes or so is he. worked hard. >> Yes. Um. >> he's he's my pick of the Bone Wars. He's. who I put my money behind. >> Is he your guy? >> Yep. >> Interesting. >> Did we ever say his name? Edward Drinker.

Cope. >> Yeah. >> That's a weird middle name. >> It is. He was a drinker. Literally. >> He really was. He was also He was also a. Quaker and a pacifist, too. >> That's right. So at at college at. University of Pennsylvania, uh that's. where he met Joseph Lighty. He was one. of his professors. So that just, you. know, kind of kickstarted their. relationship. Um during the Civil War, he went to Europe, um the American Civil. War, because he didn't want to be, you. know, he didn't want to go to war. He.

didn't want to go fight. He wanted to go. dig up bones. >> Yeah. And he was a Quaker pacifist, too. >> That's right. So he went to Germany uh. and in 1863 he met Marsh and they really. liked each other at first. They had a. lot in common obviously. >> and I get the feeling that in Germany in. 1863 there were probably not a ton of. Americans who were super interested in. dinosaur hunting. And so they they. locked up became really good pals. uh. they came back to the US after the civil.

war and. friends and were both like all right. we're going to go do our thing. independently but we're going to keep in. touch we're going to swap info early on. here and it was all very friendly at. first. >> right and I think you can make a pretty. good case that they probably cut their. own palms and clasped hands and became. blood brothers during that German. meeting okay. >> probably so. >> that's what we're going with because. they really did like each other um and. things were going along just fine two. kindred spirits with a common interest.

in paleontology. Um, and they may have continued on that. way, although I sincerely doubt that. that's the case. Um, which means I just. undermine my own statement. But, um, after the Civil War, they both. went back to the United States to start. careers, their own careers. and Marsh um. or Cop I'm sorry, he had connected with. Joseph Lighty who uh he had met through. the University of Pennsylvania and the. Academy of Natural Sciences. They worked. together there. And so he went off with.

Lighty to um study bones that were found. at Hadenfield in New Jersey where where. Lighty found that first skeleton. Right. Yes. >> And so being friends with Marsh, he. naturally cope naturally extended an. invitation. Hey, come visit me in the. field. You got to see this place. It's. amazing. There's fossils everywhere. you're going to love it. And so Marsh. came out for a visit and this was this. was mark one in the turning point of. their relationship. There were two. distinct marks. Um each of them point to. one as the the end of their friendship.

This was the the end of their friendship. starting with cope. >> That's right. So both of these guys had. uh privilege like we've been talking. about. Um, for Marsh's uh part, his. uncle, his rich uncle, donated 150 grand. to Yale uh basically to sort of get. Marsh a job. Uh they created the Peabody. Museum of Natural History. And then they. were like, well, hey, we need a. professor to chair this new department.

And so, why not your nephew? And they. said, bully, that's a great idea. So, uh, it basically cost 150 grand to get. Marsh, uh, this this job as the chair of. department of paleontology at this new. Peabody Museum at Yale University, >> right? And so they said, "Yes, um, we. want to make you the first professor of. paleontology in America." And Marsh. said, "Yes, that's a great idea. I like. where you're going, Yale. I'm going to. spend a lot of time here, I can tell.".

So that's that's Marsh setting off on. his little trajectory basically. ensconcconcing himself in Yale, right? >> That's right. >> Cope. Um remember he was basically a. high school dropout and he had to kind. of make his own way. Um he had trouble. at first finding a a a position until he. struck upon a place called Havford. College and he got a position as a. professor of zoologology there. Um, and. they said, "Well, you're a high school. dropout, so we'll just give you an. honorary master's of arts degree." Bing,

now you're a professor. >> Yeah, it's working out for both of these. guys. >> Yeah. Although Cope didn't really like. Havford that much. Um, he ends up. quitting. Um, and it actually kind of. it it kind of describes his personality. a little bit that that incident that he. would get a a good job um having kind of. been uh carried into that position and. then says this job is BS. I'm quitting.

that he was apparently prone to kind of. a quick temper here or there. Yeah, I. mean it's Ed does make the point it's. kind of hard to piece together a. personality from someone way back then, but. >> by most accounts Cope was a bit. mercurial, um, a little more outgoing. Uh, Marsh. was a little quieter and kind of known. as a bit of a flake. Uh, you know, but. considering their backgrounds, it sort of makes sense where they ended. up. Um, Marsh, you know, they they went. about their work in very different ways.

Marsh didn't publish his first paper. until he was 30 years old. >> Um he was a lifelong bachelor. Cope. married when he was 25. And Cope, you. know, even the way they wrote, Cop wrote. these very sort of flowery um. descriptions of things. Well, Marsh was. much more sort of rigid and sort of dry. and scientific. >> Yeah. Like if you if you read Cop's. stuff, he he's trying to like set the. scene for you. You know, there's one. paper where he was describing. pterodactyls and like it's a scientific.

paper, so all you have to do is describe. the bones and the measurements and. extrapolate and that kind of stuff, but. he's like painting the picture of what. it must have been like on a cliffside by. the ocean as a troop of these things. were dangling by their claws, you know? Yeah, it's super cool. It would. definitely transport the reader there. and it was a little extra dollop of. something that that you didn't have to. put on, but Cope definitely did put on. which is surprising that he put anything. extra into his work because he published.

at an extraordinary pace. So much so. that Marsh in particular was like this. man is obviously fraudulent. Nobody can. publish this much. >> Yeah, for sure. And we'll touch on that. a bit later. Um the big difference in. their earlier careers was uh when when. it came to religion, um like you said. earlier, Cope was a Quaker and was a. religious man. Um, Marsh was not he was. not very into religion and he was fully. down with evolution and natural. selection and Darwin whereas Cope kind.

of had to make it all fit within his. religious beliefs. So it's not like he. outright like called Darwin a fraud or. anything like that, but. >> he worked in like the actions of God. into his theories and sort of make it. made it all work according to his, you. know, religious beliefs, which is I mean. back then a little uh little bit. different, but even back then for a. scientist sort of an odd thing.

>> Yeah, for sure. But he he he's he he. tried to rectify science and his. religious belief. And the way that a lot. of people did that back then was to. subscribe to neolarism, which is this. idea that um changes in a population. take place on the individual level. Like. an example I saw was if you're a. blacksmith and you um use your arm a. bunch to hammer, you're going to get a. big old bulky arm, right? Well, when you. have kids, you're going to pass that. bulky arm that you developed in your. lifetime off to them. And that's how.

evolution happens. And it's much more. directed by God than what Darwin was. saying, which is you're just born with a. random mutation. And if that mutation. happens to make it more likely for you. to to survive, to pass along your genes, then that mutation will get selected by. nature, which basically has nothing to. do with God. So there was a real like. struggle for cope throughout his. lifetime um rectifying the two. especially considering Chuck that the. body of work that he produced really.

helped prove Darwin's point more than. anything. >> Yeah, for sure. Um when it comes to like. where things went wrong because they. were still buddies up until this point. >> Mhm. >> Uh it it seemingly looks like Marsh drew. first blood. >> Yes. >> Um we mentioned that Hadenfield dig. earlier. So it's um 1868. Cope has left uh his job at Havsford. Um. he's not very happy there. So he leaves. he's really kind of feet on the ground. doing the work um publishing papers uh.

which we'll see later at an alarming. rate and working with Lighty who we. talked about and he invited Marsh cuz. they're buddies and he was like dude you. got to come check this out. We found a. legit dinosaur fossil on the east coast. Marsh was like great I'll go check it. out. He loves what he sees and says, "This is wonderful, friend. You're doing. such great work here.". >> Pat on the back. >> Then he sneaks back later on by himself. >> Yeah. >> And bribes the workers there, Copes.

workers, Enlighty's workers, and says, "Hey man, if you find any more good. specimens, send them to this address and. here's some a little dough for your. effort.". >> Can you believe that? >> Yeah. I mean, just straight up sold him. out, >> right? So Marsh has just outed himself. as a very wormy type of fellow, not to. be trusted. And the way that I saw there. was a really great American Experience. episode called Dinosaur Wars that really. kind of described it like to to cope. He. subscribed to that gentleman scholar.

type of mentality, which was there's. unwritten rules, you know, like I came. and showed you my quarry and you went. behind my back to steal my fossils from. my quarry. Not cool. That was Cop's take. from Marsha's point of view. He was kind. of from the uh the businesslike. American school of of um just conquer at. all costs and he owed no allegiance. really to to cope in that sense that he. saw an opportunity and he took it. And. that was Marsh's view of the whole.

thing. But to cope that was like that. was not very cool and I'm going to. remember that but I'm still going to. tentatively remain friends with you. >> All right. All right. Well, let's take a. break and we'll come back right after. this and we'll uh. >> we'll talk about what uh Marsh always. said was the reason they were no longer. friends right after this. [Music].

shock. [Music]. >> All right, so Marsh has uh really. screwed his friend over. >> Yeah. >> Went behind his back, >> paid off dudes to send him stuff. Uh but. according to Marsh, he's like, "That's. not why we weren't friends anymore. That. that was not what really killed our. friendship at all." Uh here's what. happened. Later on that year, COPE.

published a paper um establishing this. new species uh Elas Mosaurus Plutarius. >> Nice. >> Thank you. Um Marsh goes to the Academy. of Natural Sciences in Philly to check. this thing out cuz they're still sort of. friends at this point, >> right? >> And Cope's showing off his things like. look at this thing. I put this thing. back together and look at this skeleton. It's amazing. and said, "My friend, it. appears you have fallen into the classic.

paleontology trap and mounted the head. on the butt.". >> Yep. >> And this was a humiliating thing for. Cope. >> Sure. So much so that he realized, "Oh. god, I just wrote a paper describing. this thing with its head on the wrong. end in the uh American Philosophical. Society's journal and ran out and tried. to buy as many of these copies as he. could just to cover up his his mistake.". And um the way that the way that Marsh.

put it later because he ran around. telling everybody he could about this. gap, >> he was very glib about it. Oh, very very. um like he he went he just wanted to. make sure that everybody knew that Cope. had screwed up, right? Um whereas he. characterized the story, he. characterized himself in the story as. just having gently pointed this out. He. basically said that Cope's vanity um was. wounded and or his wounded vanity. received a shock from which it is never. recovered. Basically saying like not.

only did he get it wrong when I gently. pointed this out, this guy just flipped. out and he still hasn't forgiven me. So. that's what happened to our our. friendship. Never mind the whole going. behind his back thing at Hadenfield. This is really what happened. But the. thing is that story isn't even correct. It's just like a sliver of the fuller. picture because the fuller picture. involves Joseph Lighty who again. remember was working at the Academy of. Natural Sciences in Philadelphia where. this skeleton was in the first place. >> That's right. So what apparently really. happened is is Marsh comes in and just.

says, "Oh, actually the neck vertebrae. is in is in the wrong position." That. got everyone over there looking. And. Lighty's the one who actually said, "Oh, no. >> You have the head uh in the wrong place. where the tail is." And to fully paint a. picture here, this wasn't like some huge. big deal like mistakes. It was very. early on in paleontology. Uh everyone. was doing their best. Uh there was a lot. of trial and error going on, a lot of.

guesswork, and it wasn't like, oh my. gosh, he you know, it's it's not like. someone today drawing the head of a a. bear mounted on his butt. >> Mhm. >> They were doing the best they could and. it wasn't like some huge error. >> Right. No. And and it is true from what. I understand that Cope did run around. trying to buy the copies of the American. Philosophical Society journal that had. the incorrect part in it. and he was um. humiliated, especially the fact that. Marsh was involved. But it it definitely.

wasn't Marsh running to the rescue to. save paleontology. um and and Cope just being a wuss. overall. It was definitely an incorrect. picture that Marsh painted. But. regardless of how it's painted or what. actually happened, that twoprong attack. on the friendship, both of them. perpetrated by Marsh, frankly, if you. ask me, that ended their friendship. like their their friendliness was. basically out the door. There's some. evidence that in the following couple. years when they wrote to one another,

they would kind of jokingly reference. some of the stuff in the past, but that. even that eventually dried up and they. genuinely became bitter bitter rivals. made all the more pronounced um when the. west was opened up by the. transcontinental railroad because all of. a sudden you had said earlier that the. the fossil fields in the east were the. well the the conditions of climate and. geology ology in the east were not. conducive to preserving dinosaur bones.

The exact opposite is true of the. western United States. And when the west. opened up, it was like, come on in, paleontology. The the timing of the two. is just astoundingly perfect. >> Yeah. I mean, we're talking about the. Dakotas, Kansas, um just bones. everywhere and not even too hard to find. a lot of times. >> Yeah. Uh, I mean, if you were a. paleontologist and you headed west, if. you had some protection because this is, uh, despite all our efforts, it was.

still sort of a dangerous area for a. white man from the east to be traveling. around. Um, the Native American tribes. there and the western tribes did not. take kindly to a lot of it. >> No, because think about it, like they. went from, you know, wagon trains of. settlers coming through periodically to. trains daily moving people in and out. So it was a big deal to the western. tribes um who were fighting back and. pushing back against this encroachment. and wave that was coming much more. strongly than it had been before the.

railroad too. >> Yeah, for sure. So from this point on. the guys took very um sort of different. I guess were forced to take different. approaches to their careers. >> Um Cope basically spent the rest of his. life as a working paleontologist like. feet on the ground for the most part. He. didn't work at a college. He didn't work. at a museum uh until much much later. Um. he was not like taken care of or funded. by the government. So he paid for all. the you know he came from a wealthy. family. So he paid for most of this.

stuff himself. uh sold his farm, his, you know, family Quaker farm and got a. big fat inheritance and started going. west and started amassing this big. collection that was actually his, which. was uh a really big deal because since. no one was contributing to his um. financial uh burdens, he I guess. technically owned this stuff, >> right? He he owned it fair and square. I. mean, he financed his own expeditions. paid for the shipping and transportation. of these things, which is another thing.

the railroad helped. It not only opened. the west, it helped ship enormous bones. back east to the museums, but he was. paying for this. So, yeah, that his. collection was his own. Um, Marsh, on. the other hand, being inconst Yale, he. was able to rely on Yale, Yale families, government contacts that Yale had to. finance the expeditions that he went on. So, in his mind, it was his collection, but um technically it really wasn't. because he hadn't financed any of it.

himself. It had all been financed by. others. The thing the thing about Marsh. though, Chuck, is that he was the first. one to make it out west. And because he. was the first one there, he basically. considered the entire western United. States his turf and everyone else was. encroaching on it, which is awfully rich. if you can remember what he did to cope. back at Hadenfield. And so, you know, back then there wasn't any kind of. ownership on any fossils, but now that. he's the first one out west, there is.

such a thing and they all belong to him. >> for sure. Um, so then, you know, when it. comes to academics, they also were. really, really different in how they. approach things. Um, we kind of teased. earlier about how much Cope wrote and. published and boy it's astounding. Um, it seems like he published throughout. his career about 1,400. academic papers. Uh, in the 1870s he was. doing about 25 papers a year and in one. winter alone of 1879 and 1880 he.

published 76 papers. Very prolific. uh. to the point where. >> it was pretty easy for someone like. Marsh to poke holes and um kind of say. that he was either uh copying people or. plagiarizing people or just outright. fraudulent and that no one can write. this much stuff. Mhm. >> Uh it also presented a problem in that. cope um he was publishing so much that. it he had a hard time getting stuff. published as a while after a while. because there weren't a ton of.

scientific journals and they can't be. like listen man we can't publish like 10. things a month from you or a quarter cuz. we'll just call this thing the cope. journal and he said that's a great idea. >> right. >> so in 1877 he bought the American. naturalist journal for himself to. publish all his own works, which ended. up being a really uh I don't know about. bad choice, but financially it it is. what really put the biggest dent in his. uh future fortunes was sinking a ton of.

his own money into this uh American. naturalist journal. >> Oh, is that right? I thought it was the. silver mine. The journal set him up for. it. >> Oh, yeah. The silver mine was a. lastditch effort to try and make a. little bit of money. >> Uhhuh. >> Because he was almost broke by that. point. So, so he but he does have this. forum now. Um, whether it was a good. business opportunity or not, he has a. forum to publish in. Um, and and like. you're saying, he wrote just so many. papers. Not only was it just too many.

for the journals to keep up with, there. were also a lot of questions from these. journals like, wait a minute, if you're. like a deliberate, thoughtful scientist, you shouldn't be able to publish this. much. And one of the the problems of the. bone wars, the rivalry between Cope and. Marsh that that really kind of got both. of them to be the first to rush to name. a species or make some new discovery um. so that the other one couldn't is that. there was a lot of sloppy work that came. out of it. And when there's a lot of.

sloppy sloppy taxonomical work where the. the same species is getting different. names from different people at the same. time, that takes a lot to untangle. And. apparently it took um paleontology many. decades to kind of undo some of the. sloppy work that was kind of laid at the. foundation of the field in in the 1870s. >> Yeah. And especially at Cop's feet uh. because for his part Marsh was vehicle. >> did not publish nearly as many papers. But along with that comes a lot more.

prestige. Uh, no one was going to um no. one's going to talk about Marsh and say. that he's publishing too much. He's. doing sloppy work. Uh, so as a result, they were published in some really. prestigious journals over the years kind. of almost exclusively. >> Mhm. >> And he had, like you said, Yale behind. him. So he would take students a lot of. times make them pay their own way. because this is all a very expensive. endeavor for the time. Um, you know, Cop. was was sort of creative in how he would.

fund some of this, like he would latch. on to other western expeditions that had. nothing to do with paleontology. There was one called the Wheeler Survey, which was a mapping expedition. >> that he was able to hook up with. So, he. would cut corners and save where he. could, but with the power of Yale. University behind him and these students. who would pay their own way, Marsh had a. real advantage when it came to uh. staking his claim out west. >> Right. And also there was one of the. first expeditions he went on um was. funded by the families of some Yale.

students. So it was some you know Yale. students and Marsh basically playing. cowboy out west. And the first I guess. the first day once they arrived out west. where they were going to dig um Buffalo. Bill Cody shows up basically kind of. like as a a guest star to appear and. just delight and thrill the the Yale. boys. um one of whom wrote about the. whole expedition and the whole thing got. published in Harper's. So the whole. thing kind of demonstrates that um Marsh.

as much as he's kind of seen as like. this meek deliberate scientist was also. really good at self-promotion too. >> Oh, for sure. He would wear a gun. I. think he sort of fashioned himself as a. uh Teddy Roosevelt type. >> or maybe a Buffalo Bill type. And uh. yeah, he would toot his own horn for. sure. Um, for his part, Cope, uh, after. his father passed away, spent less and. less time out west in the actual field, more time in Philadelphia, and he would.

hire guys out. And in fact, Marsh would. later go on to do a very similar thing. where they would have their uh, diggers. out there um, excavating and then. sending bones back to the east coast. where they could do their uh, dig in and. do their studying there. >> Right. And it's out west that this the. famous bone wars really started to take. place. But like you were saying, neither. Marsh nor Cope were there, but what was. going on out west, all the dirty deeds. and all that stuff were at the at the. direction and behest of these two. So,

you want to take another break and then. get into what the Bone Wars are really. all about? >> Yeah. >> Okay. We'll be right back. [Music]. Joshua. [Music]. >> All right, Chuck. So, the 1870s roll.

around, the West has opened up from the. transcontinental railroad. The the it's. giving up its fossils. It's just crazy. how well preserved fossils are out there. because of um heat and dryness and and. wind erosion exposes them. And there was. a a a part of that American Experience. documentary where um they they showed a. picture of like just this landscape that. you could see from the train. And um.

they said that that some expedition was. riding by and figured that they were. riding by a just a rock outcropping and. they realized there was just a field. covered in dinosaur bones. That's it. wasn't rocks, it was bones. That's how. many bones there were out west. So the. west is starting to yield this stuff and. just one place would become like a. treasure trove and another place would. become a treasure trove and each of. these places um some prospector would. find a big bone and the first thing they. would think of was I need to either get. in touch with uh cope or marsh because.

these guys are going to want to know. about this and they'll probably pay big. bucks for it. And that's really once. they stopped um mounting their own. expeditions, that's how they got most of. their bones was from amateurs getting in. touch with them. >> Yeah. So this, you know, this would open. the door for these guys to really kind. of um get underhanded. They would hire. guys away from each other. They would. pay for information about the other. person's digs and the bones that they. were getting. They would outbid one.

another. And like, you know, eventually, like I said, both of these guys would. end up pretty much financially ruined in. the end. >> Uh there were reports of sabotage, of. theft. Um there were reports of. dynamiting the other person's uh like. digs in their camps. >> Well, one thing I saw, listen to this, Marsh ordered that if his men couldn't. get bones out of like a find, like they. just couldn't get it out, he said, "Smash them. Do not leave them because I. don't want Cope to possibly be able to. get them himself." Not only that, but.

the bones that they would like smaller. finds that they would dig up that they. didn't think were as important, uh, they. would smash so the other person wouldn't. have anything to do with them. >> Yeah. So, they were smashing the fossils. that they sought for science because of. their rivalry. That's the insane degree. that it reached. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's easy now. to um and I'm wondering if this like how. much they had to trump this up for a. movie script because it seems like some. of this is exaggerated. Um I don't know.

if they found actual evidence that they. would dynamite each other's camps. Um it. seems like the most they would do is. like, you know, push dirt back onto. things that they had dug up. >> Uh and not, you know, again, they're. they're lackeyis out there are doing. this stuff, >> right? >> Um and you know, these guys, this was. all kind of perpetrated by Martian Cope. themselves. they would kind of trump up. these stories uh in the press and things. to kind of make the other one look bad. So, while there were bone wars going on, I'm not sure it was quite as like um.

exciting as they're made out to be. >> Well, there weren't like shootouts or. anything like that. But, I mean, just. the fact that these two paleontologists. are trying to sabotage one another's. career is kind of hilarious in and of. itself, you know. >> Yeah. I mean, and it could have, you. know, the fact that these guys were. driving each other. >> It's like, this is the lens we look at. it through now. It's like, did this hurt. the field of paleontology or help it? >> And you can kind of look at it from two. angles. Um, in one hand, what if they. would have worked together and pulled.

their resources? >> Maybe they could have found a lot more. and gotten a lot more things straight. that they didn't have to untangle later. Or maybe because they were so. competitive and drove each other to work. harder, maybe they were uncovering. things because of that because they. uncovered a lot of stuff. Like they were. both super prolific together. I think uh. between the two of them, they accounted. for 126 new species of dinosaur. And. that's just dinosaur. >> Yeah. And again, this is at a time where. you could like stub your toe and look.

down and you just discovered a new. species of dinosaur because so little. work had been done in the field. But. yeah, they definitely did drive one. another to um to to work harder and. faster and try to outdo one another. And. one of the big benefits that the field. saw that you can point to in retrospect. and even at the time was that winter of. 1877 that I was talking about. Um this. is like winter in Wyoming. It's not a. very welcoming climate. Um and yet both.

Marsh and COPE hired their prospectors, their bone diggers to um continue. working through the winter rather than. taking a break like you traditionally. would. You dug in the summer, wrote. papers in the winter. They said, "No, keep going. This is just too the bones. that are coming out of this place are. too good and I don't want my rival to be. the one to take them all out." So both. kept working through the winter and out. of that one winter we got Triceratops, we got Apatosaurus, we gotaurus.

Stegosaurus, all from that one winter of. 1877. And if you can't look back and say. yes, these guys drove one another to to. this level of discovery. I I don't know. what you can say. I I just throw my. hands up in in disgust otherwise. >> Did that make sense? >> Sure. >> Okay. Uh, I mean, as a paleontologist, you could literally just say, uh, you. know, the Triceratops, I discovered it. >> Yeah. >> And that could be it. That could be your. career right there.

>> Let alone the Stegosaurus on top of the. Triceratops. Come on. >> Sure. And then Apatosaurus. Um, that may. sound vaguely familiar, but here, let me. drop one on you that you'll say, "Oh, you ready?" Bronosaurus. Same thing apparently. >> Yeah. I didn't I didn't even fully get I. I mean this gets into the weeds with. like serious paleontology pedentry and. nerding out, but yeah, I I say. Bronosaurus. >> Allow me to nerd out for just a second.

Um the the point of the Apatosaurus. Bronosaurus being the same thing with. different names is one of those things. that's frequently laid at the feet of. Marsh is saying this was sloppy work on. Marsh's part and maybe if he hadn't been. competing with cope he would have done. better work. That's probably not the. case. But he named the same species two. different things because he thought they. were two different species. And a later. paleontologist about 20 30 years later. came along and said,"I think this is the. same thing since they were called the.

Patosaurus first. That's what we're. going to call this from now on." And so. scientifically, Bronosaurus should have. gone I can't believe I'm about to say. this, the way of the dinosaur. But. somehow it got into the the cultural. zeitgeist and everybody said, "No, we. like saying Bronosaurus more." I blame. the Simpsons or um the Flintstones. because of the Bronosaurus burger thing. >> Oh yeah. >> Who who knows if that's the case or not, but that was that was supposedly the. Bronosaurus and the Apatosaurus are the.

same thing. And really you're supposed. to call them Apatosaurus. >> There you have it, folks. >> Nerding out. >> So in the 1880s, this is after the big. rush of the late 70s, uh things started to change a bit. So. Marsh has got a couple of good jobs. He's the head he's uh he works at the US. Geological Survey. >> Mhm. >> And is the president of the National. Academy of Sciences, but financially. they're not doing so great on either. side because like we said earlier, they'd spent a lot of their own money.

trying to outdo one another, >> right? So, um Marsh is in a way way. better position than Cope. This is. actually at a point when cope is kind of. against the ropes, but rather than both. of them just kind of going their own. way, the dinosaur wars have kind of. ebbed a little bit and they can just. kind of go off and and work as. paleontologists for the rest of their. life. Marsh decides to come after Cope. um and deal him the death blow. The. moment Marsh had a position of power. that he could use against Cope, he.

abused his position immediately. uh he. was very high up at the USGS and he used. that connection to freeze cope out of. any any chance of getting any kind of. government funding for any further. expeditions. So COPE was basically. penniless. Sorry, Chuck. Because he had. invested in that silver mine that that. he used the rest of his money for. Basically the silver mine went bust. So. he lost all of his money. And now his. greatest enemy and rival was in charge.

of the purse strings for government. expeditions and had basically said, "You're not getting a dime, Cope." So. Cope was left with his collection and. nothing else. That's bad enough. But. then Marsh decided to take it one step. further and he introduced some laws into. the USGS um I guess bylaws that said if. a government uh if a government program. or agency has funded an expedition any. fossils collected from that expedition. belong to the government and he sent the.

USGS after COP's collection. He tried to. take Cop's collection the only thing. COPE had left. He didn't have his family. anymore. Um, he was living alone in like. a tiny apartment surrounded by his. collection. It was all he had left and. Marsh tried to take it from him. And. actually, Marsh failed because Cope. could prove that he had paid for most of. it. >> That's right. And it was that collection. that uh kind of funded the rest of his. life. He would sell off parts of it here. and there uh when he needed to make rent. and stuff like that. Uh he did get a.

job. He in 1889 he was hired as. professor of zoology at uh the. University of Pennsylvania. >> So that's good. At least he had a little. bit of an income. Sure. >> And uh it was they were dead to each. other at this point though. Um spent a. lifetime battling each other. Cope was. just infuriated at the lengths Marsh. would go. It was all just very petty um. at this point. And neither one of them. come out looking great uh because of a. career of sort of backstabbing each. other. And um they went to the press. Uh.

in the end I think it was uh cope. He. had taken these copious notes over his. life about all the grievances he had. against Marsh over the years and he went. to the New York Herald. They published. an article about this, but it ended up. just making both of them look bad. It. made Marsh look bad because of the. things he did made Cope look um kind of. petty and angry about everything. And. this is all kind of played out in in. public in the press, >> right? And in this in this first article.

um when COPE went to the Herald uh he. accused not just um Marsh of of um like. wrongdoing but also the USGS of. corruption and that actually got the. interest of Congress who started. investigating and uh ended up cutting. the USGS's budget by like half. So Marsh. ended up losing his job and his position. as head paleontologist at the USGS. And. in a beautiful ironic twist, that law. that he himself had inserted uh in.

through the USGS that anybody whose. collection um had been financed by the. US government um could lose that. collection meant that he actually lost. his collection. The government came. after his collection and took a. substantial chunk of it for itself. because it had financed so much of his. expeditions. So it ended up turning him. and biting him in his own rear and he. lost a lot of his collection which. really burned. >> So Cope died first. Uh he died in 1897. at the age of 56. Uh but not before he.

would issue a challenge to Marsh which. is I'm leaving my body and my brain to. science and I bet you my brain's bigger. than your brain. Um Marsh never took the. bait. Uh he died in 1889 of pneumonia at. the age of 68 and by all accounts did. not uh take part in this brain measuring. uh competition. >> this this postumous competition in the. grave. >> uh which I think is kind of funny. Um.

but that brain I think cop's brain is. still uh still under the ownership of. the University of Pennsylvania today. >> It still wanders the halls at night. >> Amazing. >> ghostly brain. That's the surprise ending to this one. >> That's right. And I guess in the end, uh, Marsh is credited with 80 species to. Cope's 56, >> which is not bad. Plus, also Cope has. that 1,400 papers under his belt, too. >> It's a lot of papers. >> Uh, you got anything else about the Bone.

Wars? >> Nope. >> Well, that's it everybody. There's I. think there's a drunk history episode. about this. I never saw it, but uh it. looks pretty good. I would recommend the. American Experience episode on it and. just go read up more on it because it's. pretty interesting stuff. And since I. said um it a bunch of times just now, it's time for listener mail. >> All right, I'm going to call this uh. Civil Air Patrol. This is from Jackson. uh Sherbalotti.

>> Can I ask you a question? >> Yes, sir. >> There was a big influx of Civil Air. Patrol emails out of nowhere. Did you. notice? >> I did not. Yeah, we got like a handful. of them just out of the blue and I I. didn't know if if something happened or. or what, but I guess it's making the. round somehow. >> Who knows? Maybe we're on the Civil Air. Patrol uh. >> watch list. >> web blog. There you go. So, uh from. Jackson, he says, "I have been a. listener for about 7 years since I was. 10 years old. Anyway, I'm a senior. master sergeant in the Civil Air Patrol.

and I've been in it for about 2 and 1/2. years. was really excited you guys. finally did a podcast on us as not a ton. of people even know we exist. Uh some. say we are the Air Force's bestkept. secret. >> I don't know about that. >> Think Area 51. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Might have something on you guys, >> right? >> Uh it is nice to get some publicity like. that though. You guys totally nailed it. Did an awesome job like always being a. cadet in the program. I'd like to hear. more about that part. Uh maybe could do. a short stuff on it someday. Cadet life.

is more of a training life than an. actually doing the stuff uh like. learning how to lead effectively and all. that jazz. Uh we also have a lot of mini. boot camp things that we go to further. our learning. Uh anyway, you did an. outstanding job and I would appreciate. it if you could give a shout out to my. squadron, the Green Mountain Composite Squadron. >> That's not bad. Not a bad name. Green. Mountain Composite Squadron sounds like.

a. wholesale furniture material. >> I was going to say it sounds like a uh. sort of a modern bluegrass band. >> Oh, that's a good one, too. Yeah. Like. there's a lot of synth involved. >> Sure. >> Okay. >> Synth and mandolin. >> Okay. And that was uh from Jackson. >> That's right. >> Jackson, is he the front man for this uh. bluegrass band? >> Of course. >> All right. Well, thanks a lot for uh for. writing in, Jackson. Hopefully we. fulfilled all of your um requests. Uh. and if we didn't, TS for you. If you.

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