Selects: What was Tin Pan Alley? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hi everyone, it's me Josh and for this. week's select, I've chosen our Tinpan. Alley episode from May 2019. It's one of. those topics I knew nothing about, but. was pleasantly surprised to find that. it's super interesting. It's about the. birth of the music industry and the. place where a lot of great songs that. are still really great today were. produced. Hope you enjoy this episode. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck. Bryant and there's Jerry over there and. this is Stuff You Should Know, the superstar edition. The old timey. superstar edition. Yeah, man. I thought. this was super cool. Tenpan Alley. Yeah, this is one of those. things where I've I sort of knew what. Tinpan Alley was and you always have.

heard that term thrown around, but I. never really really got it uh until this. episode. Yeah, same here. Uh and it's. pretty cool. Like the term tin pan. alley. T I N full stop. P an alley. You. forgot a second full stop there. Full. stop. Um I just want to make sure people. know it's not one word like tinpan, right? Okay. It's two words, right? Uh. but that is uh linguistically speaking, that's a synctici. What? It is. You know what that is,

right? I've seen the movie, man. That movie. Geez. Um you're talking. about the Charlie Coffman thing, right? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Senkity. Sectici New York. Yeah. So a syncticy is. uh it's when a specific place stands in. for a broader term like Wall Street like. Wall Street's a real street but Wall. Street also means like the finance. industry right or Hollywood Hollywood's. a real place. Oh okay this makes a lot. more sense than the Charlie Kaufman.

movie. Yeah. So. so Tinpan Alley is uh is a bunch of. things. It was a place, right? And it in. New York City, which we we'll get to in. a second, like exactly where. Um, and it. was also referred to sort of the. beginnings of the music publishing. industry. Mhm. And genre as well. Yep. So, it's kind of a lot of things, but it. it stems from the root of a tin pan.

Like a tin pan or a was a cheap piano. Like if you had a really cheap piano, you would say it it sounds tin panny, right? because like that's what the. hammer on the piano's hitting is tin. pans rather than strings. Yeah. It. sounds just like a real tenny tone like. you're beating on a tin pan. So that's. where the term originally came from. And. depending on who you ask, this area of. New York um was called Tenpan Alley. because perhaps a journalist first wrote. about it. All the sounds coming from the. songwriters from these buildings on this. one block sounded like Tenpan Alley,

right? It's no exaggeration to say. Tinpan Alley, specifically this little. stretch in New York, uh, like a block or. so, maybe less than a block. I think. it's a it's a block. Okay. Um, was the. place where the American popular music. industry was born. Yeah. So, it's. specifically 28th Street between Six and. Broadway. Um, kind of between Chelsea. and Kips Bay, a little northwest of like. the Flat Iron Building. Gotcha. And um.

it's interesting to think that like the. music the beginnings of music. distribution wasn't like prephonograph. and pre-records. There was still music distribution but. it was it was sheet music. Right. Right. So I think Chuck we should get back in. the wayback machine and go to an. indeterminate part of the mid 19th. century in the United States. Let's do. it.

So, like you said, there's horse poop. everywhere. There's a lot of it. Um, it's like you said, if you wanted to. hear music, you had basically two. choices. You could go hear it played. live somewhere everywhere from a barberh. shop quartet to maybe an orchestra. Um, or and you're on board, right? or you. could have a family member who knew how. to play music and buy a piano and have. it in your home. Those were your two two. ways to to hear music because um.

everywhere there was no such thing as. radio. Let's just let's just say it everybody. Yeah, there was no radio. There wasn't. And if you think about it, radio was. was, you know, we we take it so much for. granted today, but it was a a huge. watershed change in the way that. Americans in the world heard their. music. You could just hear it at home. being played by professionals. Like the. most the the greatest musicians you've. ever heard, you could just sit around.

and listen to it at your home. Whereas. just years before, a few years before, you had to listen to your 12-year-old. try to bang out some song on the piano. that you just bought. Mhm. Um, and that. was your option aside from going to hear. it live. And so this this whole idea of. the music industry being born, it was. basically predicated on two things, Chuck. One was the fact that pianos were. starting to become ubiquitous in. American houses. Yeah. And people were. learning how to play those pianos. So.

music instruction became kind of. widespread. And then secondly, copy. copyright law started to really solidify. in the United States in the 19th. century. And so that sheet music became. much more valuable than it was before. Yeah. Like if you can't like I can't. read sheet music. I learned I can't. either. Yeah. I learned to play guitar. by ear. Um and kind of I guess every. friend I know that's a musician except. for a couple learned by ear. Um, if you. came up formally through high school.

band or something like that, um, or. maybe just private music instruction, then you may be able to read music. But. back in the day, if you could not, and. still today, if you could not, uh, play. by ear, the only way to do so was. through sheet music. And that was that. was the first commodity in the music. business was literally just selling. sheet music to people. Right? So, it's. hard to wrap your head around now, but. that was the commodity. It is hard to. wrap your head around, but if you think. about sheet music is basically the. predecessor to the cassette or the the.

record or the um CD or the MP3, it's the. exact same thing. It's just to to hear. it like that is what you went and bought. at the store and then you came home and. played it rather than listening to. somebody else playing it. Yeah. And like. they sold a lot of them like the the. very first hit that Tinpan Alley put out. and this was a period I mean this was in. 1881 when Wait till the clouds roll by. Mhm. was put out. So Tinpan Alley. generally was early 1880s till early.

1920s or so. I I saw like late 1920s. Was it early? Yeah. Yeah. I guess you. know you can never say when it was dead. dead right. Um, but in one month in. 1881, they sold 75,000 copies of sheet. music to wait till the clouds rolled by. Right. That's amazing. Yeah. Because. this was it was a good song and people. wanted to hear the song so they went and. bought the sheet music. Yeah. So that. was one thing, right? So there was sheet.

music. That was how you got this stuff. out and but even before Wait Till the C. clouds Roll by which it seems like was. probably America's first number one. smash hit. Yeah, music. Prior to that, there was plenty of sheet music to be. sold. Um, but it was a largely like. church hymns. Boring. Um, it was uh it. was there was a lot that were sold for. schools. Um, and like I said, copyright. law changed. It allowed Tim Pen Alley to.

develop and it did so in two ways. one. it it like the court started taking. copyrights for music seriously in the. second half of the 19th century. So you. could actually enforce your copyright. against people who were infringing on. it. Mhm. And then secondly, the courts, the Supreme Court and. specifically said, hey, if you wrote a. song outside of America, when it comes. to America, it it enjoys you can. copyright it in America, too. Which.

means that the music publisher source of. free sheet music, which was just. basically stealing foreign music, printing it out in sheet music form, and. then selling it and not paying any. royalties because it enjoyed no. copyright protection. That source dried. up. And so all of a sudden this American. music that they they had to pay for now. seemed a lot more attractive because now. they had to pay for the um the music. generated overseas too. So this. copyright law and the fact that more and. more people were learning to play piano.

and so you had an actual market for. sheet music. Those two things came. together. All right, let's take a break. I feel like that's a pretty good setup. Okay. And uh we'll come back and talk a. little bit about who these uh music. publishers were and how they went about. their work early on in the Tinpan Alley. era right after this. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music].

All right. So, we've been throwing. around the term music publishers a lot, and that sort of means a different thing. now than it did back then. Yeah, it. does. Um, but back then, music. publishers, some of them wrote songs to be sure, but. generally they did not. Um, a lot of the. early publishers out of Ten Pan Alley. had backgrounds as salespeople, right? So, there was a guy named uh very. successful publisher named Isidor. Whitmark. He started out selling water. filters. Mhm. Another one named Leo.

Feist sold corsets. Uh, another one. named Joe Stern and uh, Edward B. Mark. sold neck ties and buttons. Uh, and a. lot of these people, I guess we should. point out too, uh, came over from. Europe. A lot were Jewish. Um, some. African-American songwriters, like they. were minorities, um, kind of for the most part early on, it feels like, right? And they they saw. a huge opportunity in this music. business that was starting to coalesce.

because prior to this I mean there were. there were music publishers but it was. basically some guy who worked at a. printer who had a friend who could. transpose music by ear and they would. just take some song that they heard and. and turn it into sheet music and start. selling it. Or they worked at the music. store and the music store basically did. the exact same thing. And so everyone. was ripping off everyone else's songs. and anybody could be a music publisher. But when those copyrights started to. become enforced, um it became much more.

valuable to invest in original music. because you could make a lot more money. off of it. So um those those uh a lot of. those uh Jewish immigrants and a lot of. the African-American songwriters and. composers kind of coalesed into New. York. They came from Boston and Detroit. and Atlanta and St. Louis and all over. the country. And all those towns lost. their publishing houses. Um, and they. all moved to New York and they very.

specifically moved to this one little. stretch on 28th Street. Um, and it. became Tinpan Alley. Yeah. And it's. really interesting um to look at like. how it worked back then and how it sort. of mirrored how mu like music grew out. of that model really. Mhm. and changed. in some ways, but kind of stayed the. same in a lot of ways, too. Um, like you. always hear about music contracts and. how terrible they are for rock musicians. or pop musicians. And it was kind of the.

same way back then. These these. publishers got together, they created. this songwriting factory on this block. uh of of buildings through different. companies and they would get they would. recruit songwriters to come in. They had. different arrangements. Sometimes they. would just buy it outright from you, including the rights to change the name. of who wrote it, right? Uh sometimes. they would have the right to throw one. of the other more, I guess, once they. had, you know, established themselves,

another co-author's name on there, but. they would just, you know, say, "Write. these songs, write these songs, and. we're going to buy them from you, and. we're going to try and make them pop.". like you couldn't put them on the radio. So, we're going to try and get them. popular by getting them onto vaudeville. and on stage and sending not moles, I. guess, but it was almost like early. Poliola, right? Uh sending these. performers into vaudeville to sing these. songs or perform these songs and people. are like, "Well, that's pretty catchy. I. I want that." Right? That's how they.

that's how they marketed it. And that. was like the the whole thing like if if. you it was the first time that the that. music became an industry because it it. there was almost an assembly line feel. to it where they would have feelers out. to find out like what people were into. as music at the time. One of the one of. the early transitions that Tim Panali. underwent was when it started um it was. a it was a factory for turnurning out. like comedic often deeply racist songs.

Yeah. um lots of ballads, uh just what. you think of as super oldtimey songs, right? And then the public started to. get kind of bored with that and they. decided that they kind of like this. ragtime thing that this Scott Joplain. fella has um has started to create. And. so Tim Panali, this is classic Tim. Panali, went out, figured out um how to. play ragtime, started co-opting the. ragtime genre and created pop music. So. they took what was a really difficult um.

kind of music. It's called syncopated. rhythm where you've got a melody within. a rhythm. Right. So um you know rag. time, right? Sure. Okay. So they they. figured out how to take this very. difficult thing and kind of popify it to. make it easy for uh the audience to. play. Because again, here's the thing. They're not saying, "Hey, you're the. best of the best studio musician. we've. got this really tough song over here. that sounds great, but it's really tough.

to play. We want to pay you to come play. it. We're going to record it and. distribute it onto the radio. That. didn't exist yet. They had to figure out. how to take difficult songs, kind of. dumb them down into something catchy and. memorable and importantly easy to play. so that they could sell that sheet music. to local musicians or those barber shop. quartets or so that the 12-year-old at. home could play it for the rest of their. family. And so that is how they kind of. started to take popular music and make. it even more popular. They decided what.

music was popular based on what what the. um what America was starting to get into. at the time. Yeah. And they would um. there were these musicians called song. plugers. So, how it would work is uh a. music publisher in Ten Pan Alley would. um buy a song uh or the rights to a song. off of a of a musician who wrote it, maybe put their own name on it, and then. they would give that song to a song. plugger who is a musician who would go. and perform this uh at a music shop that.

maybe sold pianos or something like. that. And this was pre-radio how they. got the music out in the public. Uh and. it was it was crazy. These song plugers. got money. Irving Berlin started out as. a song plugger, right? And and so um. it's kind of like if you you know how. you go to a grocery store on a Saturday. and they'll be sitting there giving out. samples of something. Sure. And you'll. say, "Oh, this this cheese with this. cracker tastes really good. I'm going to. go buy this cheese and these crackers.". This was the exact same thing except you.

would say, "Oh, this song sounds really. good. I'm going to buy the sheet music.". That's what music plugers were for. That's how they got the word out. They. That's how they advertised the music was. to play them. And then another way to do. it, Chuck, is like you were saying, they. would set vaudeville shows up or musical. reviews or Broadway shows, whatever with. these popular songs and these. songwriters to to help get them out that. way, too, so that audiences would go. hear these things. So you could hear. them in the music shop. You could hear. them at the theater. Um you uh you might.

hear them um well that's basically it is. the theater and the music shop were the. two main venues unless I'm forgetting. one. Yeah. And they would that was the. the plugging but it was also booming. So. yeah, like I said, you had Irving Berlin. and like George Gershwin started out as. a song plugger. Uh Al Sherman started. out as a song plugger. But if you wanted. to be more aggressive than that, even. you would do something called booming, which is uh you would buy like 25.

tickets to a show. You would have the. plugger up there playing the song and. then those 25 people were plants. basically that already knew the song. that would sing along to it. And then. everyone, you know, the only thing. better than hearing a great song for the. first time in, you know, 1910 in New. York City is hearing 25 people around. you singing it and going and you're. thinking, how have I been missing out on. this thing, right? And that may be the. first time it was ever performed in. public. That's awesome. And it was all. just a big kind of a big scam. It was.

It's hilarious though that that's how. you just look around and suddenly be. overcome with FOMO so you'd be into this. new song and run out and buy the sheet. music. I guess early FOMO. Um, so, so. there there was this process to all this. and like you said, like you could be a. like a no-name composer who would show. up at Tim Pan Alley with the song that. you're trying to sell and if it was. good, the publisher might buy it, but. like you said, you would get some sort. of terrible contract or they would buy. it outright, take your name off of the.

composition and put their own name on. there. But they also um hired composers, I think like you were saying too, where. they were they were they had they had a. few hits under their belt. So they had a. steady gig at the music publisher and. their contract was a little better, but. they were not in creative control for. the most part to where the music. publisher would say, "Hey, everybody's. into this ragtime. Make me some ragtime. songs. Everybody's into this jazz and. this blues stuff. Make me some bluesy. kind of stuff that I can turn around and.

sell." And the competition was really. fierce among the the in-house composers. because just because you composed a song. doesn't mean it was going to be turned. around and transcribed into sheet music. and then people would buy it. Like you. you had to basically audition your song. to see whether it made it to the next. level. And so in Tim Pan Ali and this is. where it got its name. there would be, you know, no-name composers, house. composers, vaudeville acts, um, all. running around playing music from these.

open windows because there wasn't air. conditioning back then. And so at any. given time, you'd walk down Tinpan Alley. and there'd be a dozen or scores of. different songs all being played on. these pianos streaming out of the. windows onto the street at the same. time. And that's where that that. reporter Monroe Rosenfeld came up with. the idea. the Tim Pan Alley. He said it. when he was walking down the street, he. was kind of describing what that was. like. He said it sounded like, you know, a bunch of Tim Pans being struck at. once. Yeah. And this this whole area of. New York, this one block just really be.

became like a creative well. There were. uh vaudeville theaters, there were uh. play theaters. Like it was sort of the. earliest incarnation of the theater. district before it moved toward Times. Square. Uh, and then other parts of the. entertainment industry obviously are. drawn to that area. Um, Variety. Magazine, that's where it first popped. up on that block when it was called the. Clipper. Uh, the William Morris Talent. Agency had an office on that block. Yeah. And it was just sort of the, you. know, after I think uh, Boston, Chicago,

Cincinnati, and I think one other city. kind of were the early seats of the. early music industry, it all roundly. landed in New York. and just such a. creative area and era. It's so neat to. think about, too, because that's. happened in places before where if you. take a bunch of creative people and jam. them into a small area, just amazing. stuff happens. Like you can do something. as big as birth a genre of music or like.

pop music, which is like a an umbrella. It's not even a genre. There's genres. underneath pop music, you know, where. something that big can happen when you. get that many creative people together. in one place. Should we take another. break? Uh, sure. All right, let's take. another break and we'll talk about some. of these songs, uh, these composers, uh, and the great American song book. right after this. [Music].

All right. So, there's money being made. Yeah. Tad. A lot of money even for early. on. I mean, I can't imagine what sheet. music costs, but they were selling so. much of it. Um, it added up. um Irving. Berlin. I mean, he went on to start his. own music publishing business, but early. on when he was just pumping out tunes, in 1917, he made about $100,000 a year in. royalties. Yeah. That's that's 1917,

too, right? Yeah. And these songs, like. these are some standards, you know, it's. what's known as the standard American. song book. um just like it's an. unofficial designation, but they're. considered to be like the the classics. of the early early 20th century. Like I. mean we all still know these songs. Stuff like uh Ain't She Sweet? I don't know that one. Ain't she sweet? You come walking down the street.

What? You don't know that song? No, that. one I've not heard. Oh boy. Do you know. Baby Face? Uh yes. Got the cutest little. baby face. Yes. I love that song. It. makes me smile every time. By the light. of the silvery moon, give my regards to. Broadway. Sure. Uh, Happy Days Are Here. again. Uh, Over There, a lot of this had. to do with like wartime early wartime. stuff, right? Sweet Georgia Brown. Take. me out to the ball game. Yeah. And that. that in particular, we got to say that. was written by two guys, um, Jack.

Norworth and Albert von Tillzer. Yeah. Um, and they had never they'd never seen. a ball game before. No. Well, maybe. that's what they were saying. But that. Yeah. The original lyric is take me out. to the ball game because I've never. been. Exactly. And they changed that. line. But that was so Tim Pan alley like. where it's like everybody's into. baseball right now, so let's make a song. about baseball. You two. We've never. seen a baseball game. Doesn't matter. Make make me a song. And that's that's. how Take Me Out to the Ball Game was. formed. Yeah. And I think under one of. the like you said earlier, some of the. earliest work were like kind of humorous.

comedy songs. Mhm. Uh, one that still. stands out today, I believe, from that. genre is Yes, We Have No Bananas, right? Which I always thought was kind of funny. when I was a kid. It's a little funny, and I guess I still do if I'm being. honest. Um, there was also uh I Yeah, you can go down this line and and. there's a some pretty substantial songs. that were were written during this time. And not all of them were standalone. A. lot of them, like I said earlier, were. created for musical reviews. Yeah. Um,

America the Beautiful was written by. Irving Berlin for a musical review. called Yip Yip Yap Hank, which no one. has heard of. No one does that anymore. But, um, it was it was meant to be. performed and produced by soldiers. It. had an eight show run. But, um, the the. song obviously America the Beautiful has. survived long beyond that uh, because it. became an American standard. So like. these these vehicles that were built.

around to kind of get the song out there. to the public faded away, but the songs. themselves have stood the test of time. Yeah, absolutely. I think he pulled it from that uh. production. or was it in the original production or. did he pull it? I think it was in the. original one. Well, he eventually pulled. it out of the production then uh because. he thought it was too sentimental and. then that song went on to be the one. that everyone remembers. Yeah, you're. right. You're right. I'm sorry it didn't. show up in there. But you also said so.

you mentioned Irving Berlin forming his. own publishing house. Um he was a a. quintessential rags to rich's story for. Tim Panali. Yeah. Where he was like a. waiter in a cafe. Um became a song. plugger. One of those guys who plays. songs to basically is marketing. Um. couldn't read sheet music. Knew. everything by ear. um had a friend. transpose the songs he came up with into. into actual written music. That's a. pretty good little factoid there that.

Irving Berlin couldn't read or write. music, right? Um and then he became a. well-known composer and then he became. such a well-known composer he opened his. own publishing house and then started. making $100,000 a year in royalties. Amazing. There was another guy named. Charles K. Harris who was one of the. earlier success stories. I think in 1893. or two, he had a song called After the. Ball. And he just knew it was a gem. because he offered it to a publisher and. they offered him a a price for it that. he was like, "That's way too low. I'm.

going to set up my own publishing. house." And he did. And he started. selling it um and was making something. like $25,000 a week in 1890s money, which is like 700 grand a week. Holy. cow. This guy just went from nobody to. 700 grand a week. ended up selling 5. million copies of his song After the. Ball. And if you listen to it now, it's. not that good, frankly. It's not. But but bully for him, you. know. It's no Ain't She Sweet? No. Uh.

Yeah. It's amazing, man. People like. popular music hit the world like, you. know, like a lightning bolt from the. beginning. Yes. Because it was so ultra. tailored for the American public. Like. again, they would take rag time, which. that was a Scott Joplain creation, and. it Scott Joplain was the son of a slave. He was an African-American. Yeah. A lot. of people thought he was white. Still to. this day, a lot of people think he was. white, I think, because of his his name, frankly. Um, and it was the predecessor.

Ragtime was the predecessor to jazz. And. it had like a real like feel to it, a. real soul. Everybody's heard like some. of the original Ragtime music like the. Entertainer, the Maple Leaf Rag. And if. you can't immediately bring those to. mind, just go to YouTube and you'll be. like, "Oh, okay. Of course I get that.". Um, but the idea that that Tim Panali. could just kind of come along and take. this cool, deep, soulful music and.

popify it basically to make it palatable. to audiences, in particular, white. audiences who had the most money at the. time. Um, that was why it would why it. became so successful. It was almost. dumbed down. It was music that was. dumbed down in a way to make it appeal. to as many people as possible. Yeah. Or. even worse, co-opted. uh by white publishers and producers to. be used in minstal shows. Yeah. This. version of music, this new genre of.

music that was so unique in the Harlem. Renaissance by Scott Joplin was co-opted. for minstal shows. So shameful. Yeah. So. there's a real debate going on now about. the legacy of Tim Pan Alli in some ways. Um, and some people point to it and say, "Look, these guys were churning out the. most eyepoppingly. racist songs that that America has ever. come up with." Yeah. Some some to be. sure. They were they were coming they. were selling them to the masses. And in.

doing this, because this was the the. origin of popular music, they were. really effectively perpetuating racial. stereotypes and embedding them more than. they ever had been before because people. were not being mass audiences were being. reached like they were with this early. sheet music. And so in this in this. respect, Tim Panali doesn't deserve to. be revered or respected or designated as. a historical landmark as the real fight. Yeah. that that's like as recently as.

like late last month, I believe, Chuck, there was a a a landmark commission, city landmark commission meeting where. this was being debated, right? Well, yeah. And so, like you said, some people. were saying that on one hand, other. people are saying, "Yeah, but so many of. these were Jewish immigrants, uh, an. ethnic minority. So many of them were. African-American songwriters, and Tinpan. Alley was also the home to the first. blackowned and operated music publishing. business in the country." Yeah. Some. people are saying, look, like, yes, it. was taken and co-opted to be popular,

but so were operettas and ballads. Like, that's just what they did. It wasn't it. wasn't meant to be offensive to um. African-Americans. And as a matter of. fact, it was basically these Jewish. immigrants saying, "I kind of identify. with your plight. I want to preserve and. celebrate this and expose this music to. as many people as possible." and that. some people pointed this process in Tim. Pan Alley as the way that um the. African-American arts became um exposed.

to the larger the larger population of. America at the time. Yeah, it's pretty. interesting. Yeah. So, that that. debate's going on and that's where the. idea of whether or not this area should. be designated as an historic landmark is. is falling, right? Yeah. And like you. said, it's kind of hard to pinpoint an. actual death date of Tinpan Alley. Uh. cuz these things like that happen. gradually over time. But technology like. uh it has so many other times kind of.

killed the notion of Tinpan Alley, didn't it? That's a really good point. Right. With the radio, it was the radio. Radio killed the um oldtimey sheet music. star. Yeah. Then video killed the radio. star. Right. Exactly. So again, you. didn't need to make sheet music any. longer or you certainly didn't have to. learn to play sheet music at home if you. wanted to enjoy music if you could just. buy a radio. Yeah. People quit buying. pianos and Yeah. It's kind of sad. It is. sad. It would be nice if everybody was.

walking around and knew how to play a. piano. Like hotel lounges would be a lot. more interesting, right? Yeah. But. that's I mean once the radio came along, everybody said, "So long sheet music. I. hated you all along, but you were my. only option. Now I can listen to like. Benny Goodman and all of these other. cats who are super hip and really good. at what they're doing and I wanna I want. to listen to their their music. And not. only did technology killed Tim Panali in. this sheet music publishing industry, but it also changed the the genre a.

little bit. It kind of skewed it more. into swing and um some of this yeah big. band. some of the stuff that came out of. the 30s onward. Um, or that was really. kind of where that transition went. Yeah. Have you ever been somewhere where. they have a public piano and seen. someone just walk by and sit down and. blow minds? Didn't you see Greg Alman do. that? My god, no. If you know someone who saw that, please.

try and remember who it was because I. need to hear that story. I'll try to. remember. I I can't remember who it was. That's pretty amazing. Okay. I don't think I'm making this up. Let me. let me let me go back through my. specific mental rolodex. But have you. ever seen that? Sure. Just like your I. mean, not Greg Almond, but I've just. seen your regular average person sit. down at a piano and like wow someone uh. New York does this from time to time. They'll have them on a sidewalk or in a. park or something. And in Atlanta, they. have one over in Atlantic Station. I've. seen people do it there. Uh and it's.

always just really cool. And that makes. me miss the fact that piano like a lot. more people used to learn piano than. they do now. I think I would love to. know how to play the piano. Me too. For. that very reason because I'd love to be. able to sit down and just I want to be. that guy so bad. Right. Someday, Chuck. It's not too late. I remember the first. time I saw it was at a student council. retreat in high school. Mhm. There was. this one uh you know, all the student. councils from the county get together. over the course of a weekend or a week.

and do stupid stuff. Um and learned. about leadership. Um but there was this. there's always like this one guy on. student council at another school. You're like, man, he doesn't seem like a. student council type. He seems like he's. 30. This guy did. Uh and he was on. student council at some other school, but he was like, you know, had like the. rat t-shirt and was just sort of a like. a dirty metal head. the bad boy of. student council. He totally was. And. there was a piano in one of the lobbies. of the dormitories where we stayed at.

Barry College in Rome, Georgia. And on. the very last day, there were a bunch of. people hanging out in there. And this. dude goes over and sits down and just. crushes it. And I remember seeing the. the girls in the room and thinking, "That guy has got it all going on, right?" Like that's the key, man. And. that boy in the rat t-shirt grew up to. be Greg Alman. Have you Have you ever been to Sig. Gold's request room in New York? What's.

that? Um Yumi's friend Joe McGinty owns. it. He's co-owner of it and he plays. piano there. It's just like sing along. piano karaoke. Oh wow. And it is. amazing. I cannot believe you haven't. been there yet. You have. So does one. person play the piano and everyone sings. along? Joe McGinty plays and then No, there like like people can sing along if. you want, but it's really one person. going up there and doing karaoke with. Joe accompanying you on the piano. Oh, okay. Well, I've done I've done the rock. and roll live band karaoke before. Oh, yeah. Here in Atlanta, which is a lot of.

fun. Okay. Um, which where do you where. do you do that? Uh, somewhere in the. Highlands. I think the Darkhorse maybe. Okay. Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, I. went for my birthday a couple of years. ago and did Cheap Trick Surrender and um. did a pretty good job if I may say so. Is that surrender parenthesis dream. police? No, those are two different. songs. Oh, okay. Is it surrender parenthesis I want you. to want me? Yeah, that's the one. Okay. I've heard that song before. But it's. funny at the one in Atlanta there's uh.

you know the DJ English Nick. No, wait. Was he on like the radio like radio DJ? Yeah, he still is. Sure. English Nick in. Atlanta. Yeah. He hosts it and he is the. uh the the emergency backup if you're no. good. Oh yeah. Because being bad at. karaoke is no fun, but being bad at live. band karaoke is really no fun for. anyone. So he stands back there and if. you're not very good, he's singing along. with you and he will just give the. signal to sort of do a little upping of.

his vocals and lowering of the other. vocals. Is it like the the slice across. your neck like that? No, I mean I I. think it's just like an eye signal. I. got you. And I remember being nervous. I. was like, "Oh, man. If they if they. bring up English Nick during surrender, I'm going to be mortified." But they. didn't. And afterward, he gave me a nod. like, "Good job, buddy." Oh. Oh, you got. the nod from English Nick. Yeah, it. means a lot. I have the opposite story. Oh, what happened? Uh, I went to. Claremont Lounge to do karaoke years. back. Okay. Chose to do Darling Nikki.

Oh, interesting. In the middle, the the. karaoke DJ breaks in and goes, "It's. like William Shatner singing, isn't it, everybody?" Oh my god. Yumi was there. supporting, dancing, just but but really. just hanging on by her fingernails. You. know, you got stopped and insulted mid. song. Midong. But I finished, buddy. Good. Yeah, I finished. I would. literally pay $100 to have seen that. I wager that it would have been worth.

$250. Okay. It was pretty pretty bad. Do we have anything else on Tinpan. Alley? I forgot what's what we were. talking about, Chuck. Well, we should. we're not going to get into it here. We. should do a full show on ASCAP, though. Yeah, because yet another thing that I. Irving Berlin did was create ASCAP, the. American Society of Composers and. Performers, right? I think producers. Producers. Okay. Man, I didn't even have. it in front of me, but um they basically. protect and register copyrights for.

artists. Yeah, it's gotten so convoluted too. these days. Yeah. Yeah. I think it. definitely deserves its own thing. But. that was another thing that was born out. of Tim Pan alley. Yeah. And you know. what? I am living in the future now. because I have a turntable now finally. again after many, many years of not. having one that I can play wirelessly. throughout all the speakers in my home. Oh wow. Isn't that amazing? That is the. future for sure that you can actually do.

that and it sounds great. And now I just. went to the record store for the first. time in a long time yesterday and bought. 13 records. I traded in probably 500 CDs. to get 13 records. He was like, I'll give you 130 bucks for. the lot. And I was like, fine, fine. Just get these stupid 90 CDs away from. me. No, they were great, but it was just. I felt like I should pay him to take all. these off my hands. Did you still have. the jewel cases? Oh, yeah. They were all. They were worth something though.

jeweled up and so yeah, I bought records. for the first time and I'm going to make. that a uh when we go on tour now and. when I travel I'm going to make it a. point to go into local record stores. again. I think that's a great idea. I. really really had a good time thumbing. through records. It was a lot of fun. I'll go with you. Text me. Yeah, let's. do it. Okay. Uh I think that's it for. Tim Pan Alley. RIP Tim Pan Alley. depending on your viewpoint, I guess. Yeah, there needs to be a great I know. there was a movie in the 40s called. Tinpan Alley, but someone should do a. really good uh look at the early.

burgeoning film, I'm sorry, movie ind. almost. Oh, boy. Music industry. There. you go. About Tinpan. That'd be great. Oh yeah, that would be great. There's so. many characters involved. Just put Hugh. Jackman and Shark NATO in it. Yep. And we're all good. And by the way, you. got called out for bringing back uh. bread. I did. I said in some episode. that I think the diving bell episode. that we should bring bread back and I. guess that's what the kids all say now. I didn't realize that but like at least.

10 people emailed and said yeah. millennials are talking about getting. that bread. Yep. It's like they are. I. guess so. I like to think that I had. absolutely nothing to do with that. No, I bet I bet you were the seed. Do you. think so? You never know, man. That'd be. cool. Before we go though, Chuck, I do. have one more thing. I have to give a. shout out to what I consider the. greatest song to come out of Tim Pan. Alley. Um, and I believe it was an. Irving Berlin song. Yeah, it was. Let's. have another cup of coffee. Have you.

heard that song? Oh, we used that for. something, didn't we? I don't remember. We probably did because it's prominent. in one of my favorite movies of all. time, Paper Moon. It was a great song. I. love that song so much. Um, if you. haven't ever heard that song, go listen. to it because it's one of the most just. blindly optimistic songs of all time. And it's about coffee. Yep. And pie. Uh, okay. And now that's it. Now I've got. nothing else. If you want to know more. about Tim Pan Alley, uh, you can go read. up on it and maybe follow whether it's.

going to get designated as an historic. client mark or not. We'll find out. In. the meantime, uh, it's time for listener. mail. So, this is just a very sweet email from. someone. Uh, hey guys, I'm sure you. receive emails like this all the time, but I would be remiss if I didn't thank. you for all the wonderful work you do. I've had a really tough time with mental. illness, and there have been a lot of. nights your wonderful podcast saved off. panic attacks or worse. Wow. Uh, thank. you for keeping me calm and educated, and thank you for making me feel safe.

even in perilous circumstances. Thank. you for giving me something to talk. about when my depression has kept me in. a fog. Uh without your massive backlog. and seemingly endless supply of fresh, fascinating subjects, I surely would be. lost. Uh spend some time researching and. I can truly appreciate uh just how much. time and energy go into becoming. familiar enough with something to. explain it as succinctly as you guys do. Uh you're superheroes and rock stars. From the bottom of my heart, thank you. for the wonderful work you do. You've. truly saved me. Kindest and warmest.

regards, Georgia. That is really lovely. Georgia, if we're ever in a town near. you, you are guest listed. Yes. Wow, Chuck, I think that was a really good. good idea. Thanks a lot, Georgia. That. was very sweet email. We appreciate it. We're glad we could help in some some. small measure. Thank you very much for. the kudos. Uh if you want to send us. kudos, we love that kind of thing. Including kudos the candy bar. Yeah, I. remember those. Send us a kudos. They. were great. Yeah. Um, actually I don't.

know if if somebody sent us one if it. would still be so great. Are they not. around? No. I think like they would have. been manufactured in 1986 or something. like that. I don't keep up with the. candy bar scene. That's what I'm saying. They're not around anymore. Yeah. No, I. know. Okay. So, uh, wow, that was a. little sidetrack, wasn't it? Yes. Uh, if. you want to get in touch with us, you. can go on to stuff you should know.com. and find all of our social links there. And you can also send us an email to. stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com.

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