Selects: What exactly is stoicism? | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Hi everybody. I'm feeling very stoic today. So, we're. going to use what exactly is stoicism as. our weekly select selection. This one. was released in July, July 4th, in fact, 2017. What a great Fourth of July topic. Learn all about stoicism right here, right now. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio.

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant, guest producer Null. Jerry's Jerry's. been out a lot lately. Chuck, have you. noticed? >> Uh, no. >> Nah, I haven't really either. >> Of course, Jerry's got big life things. going on. She does. >> Buying and selling houses. She's like a. real estate mogul. >> Visiting the mall, doing all sorts of.

stuff. >> Uh we're just couple of deep thinkers. hanging out on the Stowa. >> Yeah. Specifically, uh what is it? The. Stoa. Did you practice the word this. pronunciation at all? I I tried to. pronounce a lot of this um but you know. ancient Greek uh you know the phrase. it's all Greek to me. >> Yeah, >> it comes from not being able to. pronounce these things. >> It's quite literal. Uh the the stoa.

poili. po I think that's probably pretty close. man. >> So can I start this with a couple of. quick thoughts? >> Sure. First of all, uh I took a I took. four different philosophy quizzes before. we recorded. like. >> like what kind of philosophy do you. subscribe to type quiz. >> Yeah. You know the ones that are super. accurate, >> right? >> Because they can figure that out in 8 to.

15 questions. >> Sure. And then you can move on and find. out what muppet you are. >> So here's here's my results here. Uh for. the first one I was Epicurion. >> Okay. Uh the second one, existentialism. >> All right. >> Uh third one, atheist existentialist. >> Huh. >> And the fourth, uh Nietze Stoic. >> Nietze was a huge critic of stoicism. I'm surprised they put those two. together. >> Well, that that is Chuck, though. You. know what I'm saying? >> Yeah. You're you're a contradiction in.

terms. You're yin and yang. >> Well, I am. And that the reason why I. took these is because when I was uh. doing the research on stoicism, um I found me I found myself a lot of. times going, "Yep, yep, totally." And. then a lot of times going, "No, that's. really not me." Same here. Same here. And I think um the even the stoics from. back in the day realized that there were. very few very very few actual what they. called sages walking around stoic sages.

who really. fulfilled every aspect of this to a tea. Yeah. And and. >> I I think that I think one of the. reasons why stoicism today is is making. a comeback and it's so appealing is. because well there's two reasons. one. more than um kind of a naval gazing type. philosophy where you're trying to figure. out the nature of existence or something. like that. It's more a blueprint for. existing daytoday in in a in a useful.

happy way. >> Sure. >> And then secondly, um it's uh. you can kind of pick and choose. It's. almost like a buffet. You can pick and. choose what aspects of it you want to. adopt or use. And no, you know, Greek. ghost is going to come along and spear. you in the face. >> with a trident, >> right? >> Uh punch. >> Uh yeah, and I think that's I mean, first of all, the age of reason.

fascinates me to no end. Mhm. >> Um, and second, I've kind of wanted to. cover some of the the great philosophies. of all time. >> This sounds like a good start. >> Well, it is, but it's just kind of. daunting because people spend like. that's their life's work, you know, and. and to for us to try and summarize any. of them in 30 to 45 minutes is kind of. like you, you know, I don't know what. philosophy you would liken that to. Foolishism. >> Yeah. Dun dunism.

>> Uh, but that's what we do, you know. Well, let's how about this? If this one. goes well, maybe we'll take it as a sign. that we can tackle some other ones. But. you're absolutely right. Like even the. even just like say the internet. encyclopedia of philosophy, which is. meant, you know, it's it's it's sharp. and it's detailed and it's exhaustive, but it's also clearly meant for lay. people interested in philosophy, right? It's just just this just stoicism. is so involved that it's not possible.

for us to like really capture all of it. even in an overview, you know, um or. giving it just hitting the highlights. We can't possibly hit all the. highlights. There's just too much to it. and that's just stoicism. I still say. it's worth talking about though just. because it's so interesting. >> So if I get up in the middle, you're. going to pull me back. >> I'll just keep going. Well, I like the. urban dictionary uh definition. >> Yeah. >> Um, stoic is someone who does not give a. beep about the stupid things in this. world that most people care so much.

about. Stoics do have emotions, but only. for the things in this world that really. matter. They are the most real people. alive. >> Mhm. >> And then in their little example is a. group of kids sitting by the porch. Stoic walks by. One kid says something. very mean. Hey, you're a blankety blank. and you blank blank. And the stoic says, "Good for you." and keeps going, >> right? >> So, part of me really like I hear that. and I'm like, man, I am so that person. on so many levels, but then sometimes. I'm totally not. And I think what the.

difference is or what matters is well, it depends on if they say something that. matters to you. >> Um, >> or if or if something does matter to. you, like I might get really riled up. about some stuff, >> right? >> That. >> well, that would make you not stoic. that doesn't rile any anyone else up. But I also some things that really make. other people I rate I'm just like man. can't change it. It is what it is. Uh. and I only can get upset about the. things I can change. >> Yeah. If you could apply that to.

everything, you'd be pretty pretty high. up there in the stoic um pantheon. >> I'd be a stoic uh fivestar general. >> pretty much. Fi five finger punch guy. All right. So, we beat around the bush. I mean, that was a pretty good. definition, actually, even though it was. from the Urban Dictionary, but um. >> we should say we picked that one up from. a AON article, why stoicism is one of. the best mind hacks ever devised. >> Yeah, it was a good one. >> by Larry Wallace. Yeah, he did a good.

job kind of giving an overview of the. whole thing. >> I think Larry Wallace is one of the. great modern stoists. >> Maybe there's plenty of them running. around these days. Yeah, but we're uh I. mean we'll we'll go back in time and. study the uh beginnings of stoicism. because we're talking about like you. hear the word stoic today, >> right? >> And it means it was taken from this, but. it it's kind of someone like sort of a. grimface stoic doesn't say much. >> Um and that that's not what stoicism and. they say in our article several times.

with a capital S. >> really is all about, >> right? Yeah. to these days people. typically or I should say these days up. to about three years ago people thought. of stoics as somebody who could watch. their dog get hit by a car and you know. their reaction was to raise their chin a. little higher up in the air you know. like. >> just grin and bear it um as Larry put it. we're I'm on a firstname basis with. Larry Wallace. >> flare that it's a philosophy of grim.

endurance tolerating rather than. transcending life's agonies and. adversities just kind of trudging. through um. and just taking hit after hit from life. as it deals deals them to you. Right. That that was the idea of stoicism. You. can kind of like it's not like that's. just radically unlike actual stoicism, but it's an outsider's interpretation of. what the Stoics are actually doing, what's actually going on, the purpose of. the whole thing. that outsiders view.

that doesn't really fully understand it. became the popular view until recently. until it started to kind of gain some. traction lately. >> Yeah. And you know throughout the years. stoicism has informed some religions. Uh. these days there are a lot of atheists. that are stoics. Um. but I like how our article says it. Uh. is above all it teaches the value of. emotional control in living one's life. fully. >> Yeah. So here's the basis of it. The.

basis of it is if you can um detach. yourself from emotional responses to. things then something that comes along. whether good or bad is not going to get. your goat. >> Right? >> Stoicism is all about protecting your. goat and not letting anything get it. And the way that the way that they do. that is by saying. >> there are very few things that I can. control in life. >> And everything that I can't control, >> I'm not going to get up riled up over.

You know, lose my job. Oh, well, it. happens. It doesn't mean I'm any less of. a person. I just need to go out and get. another job. >> Dog gets hit by a car. Well, that's. really awful because I really like that. dog, but I'll just go get another dog. Or maybe I'll just learn to live without. the dog. Maybe I was becoming too. attached to the dog. Things like that. That's stoicism. But the whole point of. it is it's not just to get your goat. It's or to protect your goat from being. gotten. It's about um.

living a moral life where you're a very. good human being. >> And the idea is that the only way to. really do that is through things like. rationalism and um investigating the. universe and being understanding of. knowledge. and then um pursuing ethics, specific ethics. Um and they they they. figured out the best way to do that is. dispassionately. >> Yeah, I think my bumper sticker would. say uh on board colon part-time stoicis.

full-time dreamer. >> Okay, that is that is a specific. >> Yeah, right. >> bumper sticker. >> I used to have a lot of bumper stickers. in high school and now I loathe them so. much. >> Really? What did you have like? >> Oh, I had an old Volkswagen Beetle and. uh that was my family actually bought. brand new in 1968 and was passed down. from kid to kid to kid and u. >> it was it was very cool I thought at the. time. Well, it is cool. I love those old.

Beatles. But I just went through one of. those phases where I was like, you know, here's a Native American saying and. here's something about mother nature and. this Bob Marley had this to say and. >> oh. >> just yeah, I was one of those. And now I. see those cars with all the things and. I'm just like, "Shut up. Nobody cares.". >> It's funny. >> Maybe I'm a sens. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh, did you have. a 311 sticker? >> No, this was pre 311, actually. >> Okay, gotcha. So, did your mom come out.

and be like, "What'd you do to the. family heirloom?". >> You put stickers all over it. >> No. It's funny that that car had a uh. the rear floorboard was missing on one. side. My dad had a car like that, a. Malibu, >> so you could like see the street. >> Uhhuh. >> Piece of wood there. >> Now that I look back, he didn't even. have a piece of wood. Now that I look. back, I'm like, that was extraordinarily. irresponsible to be driving around with. kids in the back seat with the with the. street visible. >> Yeah.

I love that your dad was just like, "Watch your feet, kids.". >> Yeah. Easy does it. >> Uh, all right. So, let's You want to go. back and talk about the history a little. bit? >> No. I want to keep beating around the. bush. >> All right, let's get in the way back. machine and we need to really juice it. up. >> Mhm. >> Uh because we're going way back. >> Got some kerosene, got some banana. peels, >> and got some airplane glue, but that's. just for us. >> That's right. Cuz it's a long ride. >> Yeah.

>> Uh ancient Greece is where we're headed. Uh to the time of the great. philosophers. And um like we said. earlier sitting here on the STOA that. was a joke but it wasn't. And you you. you know you said stoa. You going to try. it again? >> The stoa puili. >> Yes. Or painted porch is what it means. And that was a public space in Athens, Greece. >> It was like a portico. >> Yeah. Which where people would hang out. and talk and chew the fat. And that's. what I love about this time was people.

would just they were just alive with. ideas, these philosophical ideas of. trying to figure it all out. Yeah, but. don't you think like every once in a. while you just be like, "Oh, everybody. shut up and just live. Go do something. useful." Yeah. Plant a field. >> Talking. >> Yeah. >> No, but I I I agree with you. Overall, it it it was a pretty thrilling time. >> Did you take philosophy in college at. all? >> No. No, I didn't. Um I really did not. I.

don't think I took a single philosophy. class now that I think about it. Not. even a survey. >> I I took the one kind of general class. I guess it was the 101. And I actually. made an A, which I didn't make a ton of. A's in college. >> And I remember at the time kind of the. same thing. About half the class I was. like, man, this is so fascinating. And. then the other half I was just like, h. man, what a waste of time, >> right? >> Like do something useful. Go like. volunteer for a charity. >> Go make something out of wood. Anything.

>> All right, so back to the Stowa. We're. we're on this painted porch, this. portico as it were. >> Yep. People are everywhere running their. mouths about what they think is. important. Uh, and then this dude. wanders up, Zeno of Cidium. >> Yeah. Who'd recently been shipwrecked. >> and there were other Zenos, not to be. confused. >> I know that is confusing. There should. be one Zeno. >> There can be. >> in all of in all of history. >> There were Zenos of other things, but. this is Zeno of Cidium. And you're.

right, he was shipwrecked and he was. wandering around uh after a trip from. Cyprus. >> Did you say we're in Athens? >> Oh, yeah. Not Georgia. >> No. >> Although we did our fair share of. sitting around on porches talking. nonsense there as well. >> But that's a porch porch. >> Yeah. >> Not a Greek porch. >> Uh and so Zeno took a little bit of uh. insight from the cynics and then. eventually said, "You know what? I could. have my kind of forming my own thoughts. here. And uh I think everyone else is.

doing it. I have my own philosophy. >> Yeah. >> And it's called stoicism. >> Yeah. Named after later later I don't. think he called it that. I'm not sure. He probably called it xenoism. They're. like, "No, that sucks. We're going to. call it stoicism after the porch.". >> Yeah. >> But this is I mean like that the. stoicism very quickly became one of the. big. >> philosophies at the time. >> Oh yeah. And it rivaled some of the. philosophies that it grew out of like. socratic philosophy and like you said.

cynicism the cynics. >> Sure. >> And actually if you look at stoicism. it's kind of a compromise between um. Socrates. >> or so crates as Bill and Ted call them. Yeah. uh philosophy which was that to. lead a good life and this was the point. of all of the philosophies at this time. during this age of reason yeah was. achieving what was called udeimmonia and. udeimmonia is a life worth living it's. thriving it's flourishing it's being.

happy like real happiness right that was. a pursuit of all of these different. ideas that were floating around at the. time was how to achieve that. >> Socrates had the idea that you achieve. that through like 12 cardinal virtues. And some of them were things you could. cultivate in yourself like courage, a. sense of justice, that kind of stuff. But then there are other ones too that. had like everything to do with luck. Like being good-looking was one of them, right? >> Yeah. >> If you weren't good-look, if you were.

ugly, sorry buddy, you could never. achieve you donia, right? >> Yeah. >> On the other end of the spectrum were. the cynics. And the cynics believed that. earthly trappings like wealth and fame. and glory uh anything like that was the. path to ruin and that the true path to. udeimmonia was living simply and living. in poverty. And so Zeno comes along and. hears all these and as he's formulating. his own ideas he's like Socrates makes. some sense over here and so do the.

cynics a little bit but I'm going to put. them together. And that's where stoicism. came from. It was a compromise between. the two where you live a life of of. pursuing udeimmonia through these. virtues, four virtues. Um I think uh. there's justice, courage, wisdom, and then temperance, right? So you're practicing those four. virtues. So that that's kind of a nod to. Socrates. Um and you don't have to live.

in poverty. you can be wealthy. Because. if stoicism is anything, it's wealthy. people who got into philosophy um that. weren't quite sure how to feel about. being wealthy. >> Yeah. To say to kind of come to the. point that like having money is not a. bad thing. >> Right. Right. And so what they came up. with was um sure you can be wealthy uh. and that's okay. You can prefer to be. wealthy, but you just can't be attached. to it. You can't desire to be wealthy.

because you can't control being wealthy. And if you pursue being wealthy, you're. pursuing something beyond your control. So if you just happen to be wealthy, that's great. You can be happy with it, but also be prepared to lose it at any. given time. And that's a a big part of. stoicism. Yeah. I I think it's so funny though to. think about like thousands of years ago. in ancient Greece like they spent so. much time thinking about living this all. these schools of thought of living this. life. So like uh.

putting so much thought into living to. life to its fullest and all the. different. ways that they defined it. And. eventually like over the years like as. recently as like the generation of our. parents and grandparents in the United. States like the philosophy of life was. like you just go to work and you work. hard until you die and that's the only. thing that matters. >> Exactly. >> Like all that other stuff is garbage. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's one of. the reasons why stoicism is is becoming.

appealing again is this idea that like. work seems to be kind of going through a. weird transformation, doesn't it? >> Yeah. >> Like it's not like that anymore. Like. there that that that ethic is still. around for sure, but like how many. people do you know work from home? Like. almost entirely. >> A lot. >> A lot. And that's fairly new. So I. wonder if like this changing work. dynamic is leading to this resurgence in. stoicism that you can find happiness.

through other stuff. >> I mean part of me thinks this is all. like super worthwhile and part of me. thinks and it's sort of indulgent. >> to and a bit like you said naval gazy. and like put just start practicing good. things instead of sitting around. thinking about the best way to live. life. Well, we'll talk about criticisms. of them later on, but I think you hit a. big one though, Chuck, was the idea that. it's self-indulgent because it it. demands. >> introspection almost every moment of.

every day. >> Yeah. >> You want to take a break and then get. back to it? >> Yeah. I got to I got to get my head. together. Where's the airplane glue? >> Here you go. >> All right. [Music].

[Laughter]. Nothing like airplane glue to get your. head back on straight, isn't it? >> Just kidding. Of course, everyone. >> Sure. >> We're smart guys. We don't do that kind. of thing. >> No, it's pretty tough to be smart and. huff model airplane glue. >> Yeah, >> it's you're pretty much making a choice. between that and being smart. >> That's what they teach you early on. >> Yeah. >> Like you want to go somewhere in life, you want to huff airplane glue. >> It's the one thing Nancy Reagan didn't. lie about.

>> All right. So, uh, Zeno got things. going. Um, peace of mind that comes with living a. life of virtue in accordance with reason. and nature. And then other dudes got on. boards and of course got on boards got. on board and they were all dudes back. then because everything was from the. man's perspective. >> Uh just want to point that out. >> Yeah. Because it's changed so. dramatically since then. >> But uh some of the other early stoicists. uh Cleanth uh Kato.

>> Ko the younger or elder. Younger right? >> Ko the Kalin. >> Oh man, I forgot about him. >> I'm not sure which Ko. >> I think it's the younger. Yeah, we'll find out from two people who. email in to let us know. >> Uh, Cynica and then a very important. stoicis. Uh, well, I'm going to pronounce it. EP. epic. Epict Epictus. >> Epictetis. >> Epictet. Sounds like a vaccine shot.

>> It does. E P I C T. Uh, T- us. >> It's that C going into a T that's. getting you. I think it's just epictitus. or epictetus. I think Epictitus is what. we should go with. >> I want another C in there. I want it to. be Epictitus, but it's not. >> No, it's not. It's Epictitus. >> All right. So, uh. >> Oh, and don't forget Marcus Aurelius, man. >> Oh, well, sure. I mean, he he comes a. little bit later. He was he was the the. ruler of uh an anant. Man, what is my. problem today?

>> It's okay, man. Everyone knew what you. meant. He was the philosopher king and. that was when stoicism was kind of the. the most popular thing going. >> Yeah. Yeah. Apparently they moved from. Athens to Rome which I didn't realize. this. I always had the idea um that Rome. venerated henistic Greece hundreds of. years after. basically the Greek civilization had had. just kind of you know gone into a bit of. a twilight or had gone out of its.

heyday, >> right? No, there was total. cross-pollination. Sure. Including some. of these early stoics who traveled from. Athens to Rome and basically with with. that move transferred the seed of. philosophy from Athens to Rome. From. Greek to Rome to um to Rome. From Greece. to Rome. I didn't realize that there. were they were actually like. cross-pollinating one another at the. time. Yeah. >> Did you know that? >> Uh I think I recalled that from deep in. my college memory banks. >> Nice. Uh so Epitus Tetus man um he had a.

big role in the stoic movement. Uh he. was a former slave um which kind of. makes sense in for in terms of stoicism. He almost single-handedly gives um. credence to uh stoicism because so many. other stoics were extraordinarily. wealthy, powerful men that it's like, >> yeah, it's pretty easy for you to go. through life saying, you know, it's just.

just take what life gives you. If life. is giving you nothing but gobbullion all. the time, right? This guy was born a. slave, crippled in the knee for life and. and became a stoic, one of the great. stoic thinkers and just through his life. proved that stoicism can work. >> Yeah. And he wrote uh a handbook at the. time was called an incoridian. And he. wrote the encidian of epictetus. >> And incoridium literally means handbook.

It means ready at hand. So uh it was a. very famous handbook and he attributed. uh I mean the first line of it was some. things are in our control and others not. right. >> and that kind of sums it all up like he. could have said the end but he decided. to dive a little deeper. >> I agree with you. I think our brand of. stoicism has about the same contours cuz. that that right there that's all that's. everything you need to know right there. is some things you can control most.

things you can't control. There you go. >> Like don't get too high too low, >> right? >> Don't get too mad about something. >> Well, ultimately I think that's what it. boils down to. I don't really find much. of a problem when people are overjoyed. I don't think that's an issue. And. technically with stoicism that is a. that's a problem. You should not become. overjoyed. Experiencing joy is fine. Sure. But but just being like overcome. with happiness or joy or um grief or.

whatever it is, you you're you're. violating one of those four cardinal. virtues. Temperance, which is just being. tempered and even keeled, >> right? So, but I think if you're saying. um don't get upset about something. that's out of your control, don't blame. others, don't try to control other. people, just know that whatever comes, you can handle it. There you go. That's. all you need to know for me. >> Yeah. And you know, I mean, how many. times have you heard me say it is what. it is, which is an annoying thing to.

hear and say, >> but it's pretty stoic. >> Well, it is, but it's also in my case. like it is what it is until it isn't. It. just matters if I personally riled up. about something, you know. >> Yeah. But I think again though if like. there's probably some people who listen. who who um subscribe to at least modern. stoicism listening to this and I would. guess that they would say that's because. stoicism is basically meant to apply to. every day of your life. Like no stoics.

are really expected to become sages in. their lifetimes, right? that it's. something you just do every single day. is try to not get riled up. But of. course you're something's going to come. along and get you riled up. That's just. human nature. Stoicism is trying to put. a a bridal on that human nature. >> Yeah. Well, and this is insider stuff. Uh I think you and I compliment each. other because we rarely get worked up. about the same thing. >> Just voter suppression. Well, no, it.

happens here and there, but just in our. personal lives and and everything to do. with work, like. >> often times I've noticed like something. that'll rile me up, you're calming me. down and the other way around. And. >> yeah, >> I mean, I think that's one reason we've. lasted so long. Like if two people were. so similar that they're constantly. worked up about the same stuff, >> Yeah. >> No one, you know, you're just going to. be working each other up and no one's. going to be there to say, "Hey, man, it. is what it is.". >> Yeah, man. Hey, mellow out. Here's a Bob. Marley bumper sticker.

>> Exactly. Uh, so should we talk a little. bit about the areas of study? >> Yeah. All right. Well, there are three. main ones and stoicism. Uh, and this is. all, you know, to deal with. introspection, which is kind of like all. philosophies. Um, physics is the first. thing. And it's not physics like you. think of uh that you hate studying in. high school. >> Well, it falls under a larger umbrella. term, I guess. >> Yeah. They're talking about the the. natural world, the natural universe, and.

also what lies beyond it. And and when. they say the natural world, they're. talking about everything. Um. God, the divine, uh nature, everything. that we know and things that we don't. know. >> Yeah. Everything we would view as. science or like you said, nature. Um. yeah, all that stuff that's physics and. all of it. that one of the things the. Stoics I think if they weren't the first. to come up with it, they definitely. popularized it was the idea that all of.

this was interconnected. >> Yeah. >> Which is pretty I mean you take it for. granted today like everybody thinks that. everything's interconnected these days, you know, >> but um I it's to be among the first to. kind of point that out or suggest that. it's pretty pretty significant. contribution to Western thought. Yeah, I. imagine that was a pretty deep thing. when it first started hitting people. >> Yeah. You know, >> can't you just see George Carlin being. like, "Oh, you just blew my mind.". >> Uh oh. Because he was so crates.

>> Mhm. >> Man. >> Wait, no, he wasn't so crates. He was um. >> No, he was the. >> the guide or spirit animal. >> Yeah. >> What was his name? >> Oh man. >> Get killed on this. >> We'll just edit this part out. >> I didn't know I had to brush up on my. villain dead. >> I didn't either. I surprised myself. You. should have seen my face. >> You know, they kept uh they kept talking. about remakes like as recently as a. couple years ago, I think. Or not. remakes, but uh sequels. >> with the originals.

>> Oh, yeah. Like K Reeves was like, "Man, I love those movies. I'd love to go make. another one.". >> Did you see what What was um So, was. Kiana Reeves Bill or Ted? Uh why are we. even doing this to ourselves? >> Boy, I want to say he was Ted. >> So, the guy who played the other guy? Yeah, Alex Winter. >> Oh, geez, Chuck. Wow, nice job. So, Alex. Winter was in um. uh what was the Charles Bronson vehicle.

like his most f Death Wish Deathwish 3. >> Death Wish 3 was what he was in which. was when Golden Globus got their hands. on it and turned it into like a schllock. violent like um almost post-apocalyptic. movie. >> Yeah. um and he's great in it, but he's also. in um a a documentary on Golden Globus. I can't remember what the name of the. name of the um documentary is, but it's. just about how bad the movies they made. were and how how gleefully these guys.

made them, but um he's interviewed in. it. That guy hasn't aged a day. >> No, he looks like Bill. >> Okay, so he's Bill. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, uh so we got that. settled. physics was done. What's next? >> Uh, logic, which uh they wanted to. include um social sciences, psychology, sociology, history, which I I kind of. like. I'm down with that as far as the. philosophies go. They wanted to include. all this stuff. Uh but collectively they.

kind of called this all reason. And it. was a very big deal. >> uh to stoicism, perhaps the biggest. deal, >> right? And they also were engaged in. epistemology which is theories of what. knowledge is, how we gain knowledge, what's true, what's belief, what's. false, how do we differentiate between. these things. And they spent a lot of. time investigating this and putting it. all under logic because it was through. logic that you could investigate physics.

which included investigating God and the. nature of universe and stuff like that. And then through all that that. investigation, that introspection, that. naval gazing, um you were ultimately. figuring out how to best pursue and best. live out the third part, which was the. ethics of the whole thing. >> Yeah. And you mentioned the the four. great virtues earlier, courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And um the whole. idea here is uh it's it's not like you.

want to block out the bad and only. embrace the good. you like you want to. consider both the good and the bad but. just don't let it any of it get in the. way of anything that you're trying to. pursue in your life. >> right pretty simple. >> yeah and the whole good bad thing. where did you find this this thing on. ethics was that the. >> that was the internet encyclopedia of. philosophy from their from their uh. entry on it was pretty pretty good the.

whole thing dude you should have seen. how in-depth they go though. But I. thought this one was a good snippet. >> Well, I'm sure. Yeah, they dive pretty. deep, but I thought this was a pretty. good little summation there. You know, they were talking about um. like you said, like money isn't just not. good or aka bad. Uh things like this. they called indifference. >> as in uh I N D I F E R E N Ts, >> right? >> Not indifference. And it's like not good.

or bad. It could be either one. Um it. it's really kind of all about not. letting something like that get in the. way of your pursuit, >> right? So, and again, it went back to. wealth, right? And this um this person. in the encyclopedia of philosophy points. out that like money definitely. being wealthy usually is is helpful or. beneficial to the individual. >> Sure. But you it can also not be.

beneficial where say you have a big. heroin problem. Well, the more money you. get, the more money you're going to. spend on heroin. So in that case, being. wealthy is detrimental to you, not. beneficial. Right? And for something to. be a good, it has to be good under all. circumstances. And to a stoic only, there's only four things that are good. under all circumstances, which are those. four cardinal virtues. Right. Everything. else, like you said, is an indifferent. And it can either be preferred or. dispreferred. Like wealth typically.

would fall under being a preferred. indifferent. Whereas say disease, having. chronic disease would be a dispreer. disper. Wow. A dispreferred indifferent. >> Man, that's tough though. >> It is. Um, but the the point is is. whether it's fabulous wealth or. diabetes, they should affect you about the same. Or you might want one, you might not. want to have one, but if you have either.

one, you can live with it. And that. brings up a huge huge component of. stoicism that's really been blown up and. exploded in the 21st century, which is. you should take adversity and turn it. into a an opportunity for growth. That. is a huge aspect of stoicism that's. that's really being practiced and. espoused these days. >> Yeah, I'm down with that.

Like I don't I don't think I like being. able to take from all these philosophies. and different religions to form your. sort of uh pathway through life, you. know. >> Sure. >> Like when I hear sometimes I I've. started to read about Buddhism and and. the whole thing with Buddhism of like. every day you start a new and you have a. new chance like that really appeals to. me too, >> right? What I don't like is uh. when either religions or philosophies. say like no like this is the only way.

and everything else is BS. >> Sure. >> You know. >> Yeah. >> That just that's a harsh buzzkill. >> It really is. Not only is it BS, but I'm. going to kill you for thinking. otherwise. >> Yeah. So Senica who was one of the great. thinkers. uh of stoicism he was an adviser to Nero. and we'll talk about him as criticism of. stoicism later on but he had a um very. famous quote where he says you are.

unfortunate in my judgment for you have. never been unfortunate. You have passed. through life with no antagonist to face. you. No one will know what you are. capable of not even yourself. And that. kind of shapes the that the basis of. that idea that no matter what life. throws at you, you take it and you say, "I'm going to become a better person. from this." Like, "Oh, this happened.". Well, that's great because that means. that I can learn to be better at this.

So, my dog just got hit by a car. I'm. going to practice um fortitude and make. it through this really hard time and. become a stronger person on the other. side. >> Yeah. He may as well have said you trust. fun kid, >> sure. Right. Exactly. And and I mean. that that that makes a people turn that. on Synica as well, but a lot of modern. stoics come to his defense is like, "No, that guy had a harder life than you. would think.".

>> Should we take another break? >> Yeah. All right, let's do it. And we'll. talk about Senica and Cicero and all. other kinds of weird names. [Applause]. [Music].

[Laughter]. So Chuck, you were saying you were. talking about um religion. >> Stoicism apparently informed. Christianity in a lot of ways. >> Yeah. And Buddhism in some ways. >> Yeah. >> Yet atheists embrace it. >> It's kind of weird that way. >> these days. But I mean the early Stoics. were definitely they definitely believed. in a divine intervention. And it was. kind of the basis of the whole thing. that this is God's will, so why why try. to control it? Who are you to try to. control it? Just roll with the punches.

>> Yeah, that's a big when when I was. taking all those philosophy quizzes, they're all a little bit different, but. you saw a through line through a lot of. these questions and uh the free will one. was in every single one of them. >> Yeah. >> Like how do you feel about free will? And hey, there different ways of asking. it, but you know that. >> free will. What do you think? >> If exactly if you want to find out which. philosophy that you jive with, uh, you. have to answer the free will question. Free will question.

>> Yeah. Hey, that's easier to say than. >> dispreferred. indifferent. >> Nice work. >> So, um, so one of the big points. especially today for practicing stoicism. is looking at adversity as a grow. opportunity for growth. >> Right. That's just a good tool in life. I think. >> another one and this one I really this. is where I big time diverge from. stoicism as like a part of a daily. practice is something called negative. visualization.

>> Yeah. Like uh try and try and imagine. the worst case scenario. >> constantly. >> Yeah. I'm not into that at all. >> No. So say you're say you're at like. your child's birthday party, right? And. you are not you specifically. This is. you, just a general person, and you're. having just the most. >> intense moment of of joy and. appreciation for your child. According. to Stoics, you should follow that up.

with a thought about how at your child's. next doctor's appointment, your child. could be diagnosed with terminal. leukemia. >> Yeah, >> that that is what you should be doing. basically all the time. Negative. visualization. And the idea is it's. twofold. One, you're preventing yourself. from becoming overjoyed at that moment, right? >> Don't don't do that. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And then secondly, you're you're. exploring how you will feel if your kid. does get diagnosed with something.

horrible or something bad happens. And. that when it actually happens, you'll. say that it's not so bad. I'm already. used to it. or you'll be able to. confront it through your imagination and. say, "This is what I'm afraid of. That's. not that bad." But I mean, that's a. really extreme horrific example. Yeah. >> But but it is ultimately it's definitely. in step with stoicism. >> that you should be visualizing the worst. case scenario all the time. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean and that's one of the.

reasons stoicism has such a downer. reputation. uh such that Cicero uh wrote uh a stoic. rouse enthusiasm. He is much more likely. to extinguish any enthusiasm the student. may have to begin with. >> burn. Yeah, it was a pretty good burn. Um, and you know, I get that like. who who would if you if that was one of. the first things you learned if you. started to poke around with stoicism,

uh, 99% of people would probably be. like, man, I don't want to I don't I. don't like the sounds of that. >> Yeah, I like the not having to control. everything aspect, but the thinking. about nothing but negative thoughts all. the time. Yeah. You know, and I I get. the point of it. I just it doesn't it. doesn't appeal to me. No, I mean you. shouldn't be polyiana either. Um, >> well, no, it's it's in direct. contradiction to the idea of the power. of positive thinking, >> right? >> Which is Stoics like you fool. What are. you doing? All you're doing is setting.

yourself up for nothing but letdowns. when that doesn't actually come true. >> Well, but I also agree with that to a. certain degree, you know, like the whole. like just you can conjure it up just by. thinking positively. I think that's on. the opposite side equally. Uh BS. >> Sure. Sure. I think so, too. >> I'm kind of right down the middle, I. guess, when it comes to that stuff. >> And I think most people are, but I think. that's what's fascinating about this. kind of thing is it's like, whoa, there's are some people actually are to.

these these degrees, these extremes. It's interesting to me. >> Well, yeah. And the other interesting. thing is we, you know, you're talking. about Christianity and then it's weird. how stoicism on one hand like atheists. like I can totally see how they'd be. down with stoicism, but also the whole. notion that uh some believers in God and. some Christians like give it all up to. God because only God can control. anything. So uh all we're going to do is. is pray about it. And that's popular.

among stoics as well, >> right? So, it's just interesting that it. has such a wide range as far as from. atheism to like the, you know, serious. serious give it up to God Christianity, >> right? Yeah. No, it definitely Yeah. And. it almost it's kind of like it's that. buffet thing again where people can come. along and take what they want from it. and it it becomes part of their own. philosophy or their own religion or. whatever. Um, let's talk about some of the ways that.

that it's been used over the years. Stoicism, right? >> Okay. >> So, there have been a lot of people who. have followed stoic thought like Adam. Smith apparently um was very much. informed by stoicism when he wrote the. wealth of nations because one of the big. big aspects of it was individual. liberty. One one cool thing about the. early Stoics was that everybody's equal. >> Yeah. >> Right. Doesn't matter whether you're. man, woman, uh, gay, straight, uh,

black, white, whatever. Everyone is. equal. And this was at a time when. slavery was rampant, right? >> Yeah. >> Um, so that was a big a big that's a big. aspect to um that's a big aspect of the. wealth of nations is anybody can come. along and and become a capitalist. You. just have to compete, right? Um, another. place that it popped up kind of famously. was in cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah. Which initially when I saw that I. was like, "Huh, that kind of surprised. me." But then it all made sense,

>> right? >> Like exposure to something bad can help. you get over it is kind of like that uh. conjuring up the worst possible. It's. almost numbing yourself to the worst. possible thing if you think about that. >> Y. >> uh worstc case scenario thing all the. time. It's almost a way of preparing for. that. >> Yeah. and and it's rooted specifically. the one of the founders of CBT Albert. Ellis um was an adherent of um of.

stoicism as a younger man and the the. what's known as the cognitive model of. emotion which is the basis of cognitive. behavioral therapy is based on. Epictitus's um maxim that people are. disturbed not by things but by their. view of things and and that's part of. that whole stoic philosophy which is. nothing is good or bad. There's only. good in the four virtues. Everything. else is how you view it.

>> Whether it's losing your job or winning. the lottery, those aren't those things. aren't inherently good or bad. It's you, the person experiencing that, who. bestows good or bad on them. >> Yeah. >> And why label things? >> Sure, I'm down with that. >> Yeah, >> a little bit. Did you hear about Admiral Stockdale? >> Yeah, I remember that name uh for sure. when he came out with his uh with his. book uh. Courage Under Fire Colon testing.

Epictectus'. doctrines in a laboratory of human. behavior in 1993. He was a famous um. prisoner of war uh in Vietnam for seven. years. Endured some of the worst of the. worst that you can imagine in war. And. what got him through uh was certainly. not Christianity because he thought. that's nothing but false hope. >> Well, not not only that, he shared the P. camp with people who you who clung to. that and and did not make it.

>> Yeah. So he saw it like right up front, >> right? >> So what got him through was his stoic. beliefs. >> Yeah. He was a huge big- time adherent. of Epictitus. Um he'd studied him in. college. Apparently, he'd read. everything that Epictitus had written or. said that had been written down and. attributed to Epictitus twice from two. different uh translators. So, this guy. knew his Epictitus. And he said, "Well, I'm a prisoner of war in Vietnam. I've. got some broken bones. I'm starving. I'm.

being mistreated. I'll be here for seven. years. What a perfect opportunity to put. Epictitus' teachings to the test in a. real life laboratory experiment." And he. said, Epictitus passed with flying. colors was was Stockdale's final report. on it. >> Yeah. He said, uh, if Epictitus' lecture. room was a hospital, my prison was a. laboratory, a laboratory of human. behavior. I chose to test his postulates. against the demanding real life. challenges of my laboratory. >> So, man, talk about a strong will like.

to be faced with that and be like, well, hey, this is a great chance to to work. on my philosophy of life. >> Exactly. What else am I going to do? But. that that follows in and of itself on. the whole too of um turning adversity. into a room for growth as well. >> Yeah, man. >> Yeah. >> Stronger than me. Let's just say that. >> So, um you want to talk about some. criticisms of stoicism? >> Well, Cicero certainly thought it was a. big downer. >> Yeah. Um he said,

well, you already said what he said, right? >> Yeah. That it basically extinguishes. enthusiasm in students. Not a good. thing, right? And then over over the. years, the fact that some of the great. stoic thinkers of all time have been. super wealthy and powerful. Senica, Marcus Aurelius was the emperor of Rome. He basically ran the free world. Well, I. don't know if the free world's right. The western world for almost 20 years. >> Yeah. >> And and when you sit there and Yeah. Again, if you say yes, you can turn.

anything into any adversity into an. opportunity. if if you're super wealthy, you don't have to worry about where your. food's going to come from. Like yes, of. course you can be a stoic. And then. Epictitus came along and and like we. said, kind of erased all of that to an. extent for sure, but it is still kind of. criticized as like a a wealthy person's. philosophy. And it kind of smacks of. that a little bit today too, Chuck, with. its huge um resurgence in Silicon.

Valley. >> Oh, is that happening? >> Oh, yeah. most most of the stoic revival. is taking place there. That's where its. cradle is right now. >> Oh, well, our own article has a couple. of good points that talk about it um. not being as appealing because it it. lacks the mystique of Eastern practice. Uh and then they uh also said this, it's. also regarded as a philosophy of merely. breaking even while remaining. determinedly impassive.

>> Yes. I don't know if that's entirely. fair, but it's a it's it kind of catches. it a little bit. >> Well, yeah, because the the very next. sentence is this attitude ignores the. promise profered by stoicism of blasting. transcendence. And that one article that. you sent talked about the power of. indifference, >> right? >> Which I thought was interesting. It's. not about just like not caring about. anything. It's about caring about only. the right things that you have the power. to change. >> Yeah. And also though I also see that.

even keel aspect being indifferent the. power of it. I mean think about how much. time whenever you you are like super. happy about something going right or. super upset about something going wrong. You're ultimately you're being. distracted from keeping on keeping on. >> Oh yeah. >> And then you go back to eventually get. back to that middle again which is the. baseline anyway. And so I guess what. Stoics are doing is staying on that that.

baseline and not being distracted so. they can get further along faster or at. a more steady pace. >> Yeah. I mean, there's definitely. something that's really frustrating in. life, which is when you look back and. say, "Man, I've spent two days. stressed and worried about something. that I have no control over, >> right? And what a waste of time that was. when I could have done X, Y, and Z. >> One of the big questions I have, it's. not necessarily a criticism. I guess it. depends on what the answer would be, but.

my one my big question for stoicism. since it's so. um it places so much emphasis on the. individual and self-exloration and. introspection. How would a stoic suggest. enacting massive social change where. something some ill is happening to some. large group of people, but nothing's. going to change unless you go out of. your own personal sphere and work to.

make others change, >> right? >> How do you do that? Do you just say, "Well, whatever. it's God's will that. these people suffer and be put down by. the majority for forever or is there. some way that that can be addressed. through the stoic, you know, philosophy? I'm very curious. So, anybody who knows. that, write in, please. >> Yeah, maybe that's why it appeals to. Silicon Valley. >> Right. Well, that's the other thing, too. Right. So, it also very much smacks.

when when you hear of it from like. wealthy people espousing it to anybody. Um, it smacks of that whole uh aspect of. Christianity where hey medieval peasant, you know how your life is terrible and. you're going to live to 35 and all you. do is work all the time and you give. most of the the spoils of your effort to. your king. Well, there's such thing as. Christianity and your treasure is in the. afterlife. So don't worry about this. life, right? It's smacks of the same.

thing where you can keep a population. placated and not searching for larger. social change by saying, "Hey, just. focus on these four things and. everything else is just it just happens. and you don't need to get worked up. about it at all." It seems like a a bit. of a pacifier, too. >> Yeah. >> Depending on how you look at it, it's it's fascinating. Are we done with. stoicism? >> I'm finished with it. >> Okay. I think that was a good overview. >> I think so, too.

>> It's a good thought starter. >> If you uh want to know more about. stoicism, bud, there's a lot more out there than. this. Just dive in and see what it means. to you. And again, it's a buffet. Take. what you like, leave what you don't. want. Leave the curdled pudding behind. >> Correct. >> Take the perfectly garlicked green. beans. >> Yum. If uh what else did I Did I already. say that one part? Oh, since I said. green beans, it's time for listener. mail.

>> Uh, I'm going to call this uh Beagle. Brigade/ Police Dogs. >> People love that one, >> man. Who doesn't love Beetles? Beagles. on brigade on parade. >> No one. Even people who get busted with whole. pigs still are like, "That beagle's. adorable." So, uh, this dude, uh, Eric. Stove is a sandwicher, meaning he. follows our advice, which is to listen. to the newest episode as well as. whatever from our back catalog he. chooses to. >> Yeah,

>> he's doing it right. >> Listen. Yes. >> Uh, hey guys, I work in the sports and. entertainment business in New York. And. after 9/11, the use of bomb sniffing. dogs, mostly uh, German Shepherds, became standard operating procedure for. all events. A few hours prior to a. concert one night, the K9 units were. sweeping all the backstage areas and one. of the bomb dogs hit on an employee. locker. As you can imagine, it caused an. immediate and serious response. A bomb. squad was dispatched and that portion of. the arena was evacuated. Plans were even. made to cancel the show. Uh he doesn't. say what show, which I was very curious.

about. >> I'm going to say Three Doors Down. >> Okay. Uh after some very tense moments, the. police officers open the locker. Those. guys are super brave. Uh thankfully they. didn't find a bomb, but did find drugs. An employee must have thought uh must. have brought in an extra bump for the. show. >> Oh man, it was definitely Three Doors. Down. >> Uh you might be asking yourself, um No, this wasn't the band's green room. This. was an employee. >> Oh, I know. I know. Three Doors Down.

Three Doors Down's fans are among the. most drug add of all music fans. >> Are they? >> Sure. >> I thought that was the Jugalos. No, they. put the jugalos to shame. >> Jugalos take time off once in a while. You know what I mean? >> Yeah, that's true. Uh, you might be asking yourself, how does a. bomb dog find drugs? As it turns out, the dog had failed out of drug school. and was retrained as a bomb dog. Poor. guy.

>> That's hilarious. Poor guy. Which one? the dog or the guy who just happened to. run across the failed drug dog. >> Yeah, I guess they're. >> still remembered something. >> There are no winners here. >> Uh I guess he didn't completely forget. his drug training though and he set off. a chain of events that scared the crap. out of us. Uh the story ends with the. employee getting arrested. The show went. on and the fans none the wiser and my. guess is the dog was reassigned uh to uh. crowd control. >> just barking at people. Get back in. line. >> Uh thanks for everything you guys do.

Please let me know if you ever need. anything in New York City. Uh, is that a. hint? We don't do drugs, Eric. >> Yeah, we're terrified of dogs. >> Uh, that is Eric Stove in New York. And. I guess he's still in the sports and. entertainment business. >> Yeah, he's like, "You need some sports, come see me. >> I could use some sports.". >> Thanks, Eric. That's a pretty great. story, right? >> That's right. If you want to get in touch with us like. Eric did, you can send us an email to.

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